509: Death in Hell's Kitchen

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 509: "Death in Hell's Kitchen"

Released: June 25, 2026
Podcast Recap by Fans, for Fans – Humor, Sass, and Heart

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, the True Crime Obsessed hosts recap the "People Magazine Investigates" episode titled "Death in Hell's Kitchen." The episode explores the disturbing series of drug-facilitated robberies and homicides targeting gay men in New York City’s Hell’s Kitchen during 2022. The hosts use their trademark blend of humor and empathy to break down the details of the cases, analyze systemic issues in law enforcement, and highlight the devastating impact on the victims' families and the LGBTQ+ community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Honoring LGBTQ+ History and Context (00:00–02:19)

• Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop: Kicking off in prideful fashion, Host 1 dons an Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop shirt, sharing its significance as the first gay-owned bookstore in the world – a symbol of LGBTQ+ resilience and community (00:00–00:40).
• Setting the Scene: The hosts introduce the case as recounted on "People Magazine Investigates," focusing on two victims: Julio Ramirez and John Umberger, both gay men whose deaths shocked the post-Covid revitalized queer community in NYC.

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2. The Victims: Lives, Aspirations, and Connections (02:19–04:45)

Julio Ramirez

• Background: Young social worker, son of Salvadoran immigrants, highly motivated with two master's degrees. Described as “fun and silly”—deeply loved by friends and family (02:33–03:13).
• Close-Knit Family: His gentle coming-out story illustrates the shifting generational response to LGBTQ+ identity:
  • “Carlos is like, I was, like, cool. Like, that's so amazing... his mom was like, okay, my baby.” – Host 1 (03:27–03:45)
• Support Systems: Julio and his best friend Shiva were in constant contact, frequently sharing their locations for safety (05:40–06:43).

John Umberger

• Background: Came to NYC from D.C. for Memorial Day weekend, worked in conservative politics. He shared a close relationship with his mother, coming out to her at 15:
  • “When he was 15, he shared with me that he was gay, and it was just beautiful.” – John’s Mom, Linda (15:21–15:43)
• Community Connection: Both Julio and John were surrounded by friends and family who noticed immediately when something went wrong, enabling the cases to draw public attention.

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3. The Disappearances and Immediate Aftermath (04:45–10:10)

• Julio’s Case:

  • Last seen on April 20, 2022, after a late night out. He was later found unresponsive in a cab. No ID, wallet, or phone on him triggered a John Doe investigation.
  • Shiva receives notification that Julio’s location sharing is off—a major red flag given their close relationship (05:51–06:43).
  • Family and friends scramble to contact him, eventually learning through his job that he hadn’t shown up, increasing their alarm (07:00–07:16).

• John’s Case:

  • May 28, 2022: John stops sharing his location. His mother leaves frantic messages as she notes texts are being read but not answered:
    • “Somebody is seeing these text messages and not responding to them, which raises, like, big alarms for her because she's like, my son would never do that to me.” – Host 1 (13:42–14:10)
  • On day six of John being missing, his mother asks police for a welfare check. He is found dead in the townhouse where he was staying (20:27–20:52).

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4. Initial Police Response and Systemic Bias (10:10–13:13)

• Dismissal and Frustration: Police rule both cases drug overdoses without much investigation, dismissing the families’ insistence that this was out of character:
  • “The cops immediately say, this is a, quote, typical drug overdose... it's just so dismissive.” – Host 2 (10:46–11:20)
• Racial and Queer Bias: Contrast in approach between the white, conservative John and Latino, gay Julio:
  • “Very stark contrast between how the cops respond... The mom's like, oh, we just, like, went into the precinct... Julio's family has a totally different experience. They have to take to the streets to get the cops to care.” – Host 2 (23:13–23:38)

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5. Discovery of a Pattern and the Larger Criminal Enterprise (19:19–41:09)

Financial Crimes and Clear Patterns

• Friends/family discover tens of thousands in fraudulent charges on victim accounts, direct cash app transfers to suspects, and use of stolen credit cards (24:26–25:19 & 33:15–34:04).
• The same suspects are tied to multiple incidents through digital footprints and surveillance footage.
• Surveillance videos show suspects following John from the Q nightclub, then entering and later leaving his townhouse (26:25–28:20).

Connecting the Dots: More Victims

• Detectives identify a network of at least five perpetrators and 15+ gay male victims—many drugged, some violently robbed, some dead (39:25–39:49).
• Many living victims didn’t report their attacks due to shame, fear of outing, or embarrassment over being duped (40:23–40:43).

Hotel Security Fiasco

• Shocking footage shows a victim wheeled unconscious on a hotel luggage cart with no intervention from staff:
  • “Imagine if that were a woman... just wheeled through the lobby... put in the elevator, go up to the room... I could not believe it.” – Host 1 (37:01–38:58)

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6. The Investigation Intensifies (41:09–46:37)

• Arrests: Primary suspects Robert DeMaio and Jaquan Hamilton are identified through rental agreements, surveillance footage, and direct digital transactions.

• Flimsy Alibis & Smoking Gun Evidence:

  • DeMaio tries to claim “John was alive when we left,” but his phone includes a video of the suspects laughing and using anti-gay slurs with John’s dead body in frame:
    • “They are taking a video with John's dead body. They're laughing. They think it's hilarious.” – Host 1 (43:47–44:47)
  • The video is described as so disturbing it rattles even the experienced hosts.

• Legal Hurdles: Cops must wait months for medical examiners to rule the deaths as homicides—a delay exacerbated by Covid-era backlog (45:55–46:05).

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7. Breakthrough: Cause of Death and DA’s New Approach (46:05–47:48)

• Toxicology Reports: Reveal both victims were killed by a rare cocktail: cocaine, fentanyl, and lidocaine:
  • “I've never seen lidocaine in an overdose until this case.” – Detective via Host 1 (46:05–46:36)
• Historic DA Move:
  • Manhattan DA charges murder on basis of fentanyl as a weapon:
    • “This is the first time the Manhattan DA's office was charging a murder case where a drug, fentanyl, was used as the weapon.” – Reporter (47:21–47:30)

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8. Justice and Aftermath (47:48–END)

• The Trial:

  • Takes place January 2025. Surveillance, financial evidence, and suspect recordings provide overwhelming proof.

• Verdict:

  • Hamilton and DeMaio: 40 years to life
  • Oroso: 20 years to life (50:05–50:19)
  • The families are left devastated, but grateful for justice:
    • “It felt good to know that they were gonna get what they deserved. They were gonna pay for what they did.” – Carlos (Julio’s Brother) (50:13–50:19)

• Host Reflections:

  • The hosts lament that, even in 2022, sustained public rallies and media attention were needed for police to take these cases seriously.
  • Highlight the vital role of families and community in demanding justice:
    • “If the families... had not pushed this... this wouldn't have happened. These guys would still be out there doing that... so many more dead gay people.” – Host 1 (49:39–49:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Girl, I'm wearing my Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop T shirt in honor of the gays today.” – Host 1 (00:00)
• “The coming out story in this family is amazing... his mom was like, okay, my baby.” – Host 1 (03:37)
• “There was the very clear voice... saying, I didn't do this to myself. And, mom, you need to go get the people that did this to me.” – Linda, John’s Mom (22:44–23:08)
• “The cops immediately say, this is a, quote, typical drug overdose... it's just so dismissive.” – Host 2 (10:46)
• “They have about 15 victims. They've stolen tens of thousands of dollars. But here's what they're doing... targeting gay men that they think the cops aren't going to care about.” – Host 2 (39:39)
• “They are taking a video with John's dead body. They're laughing. They think it's hilarious.” – Host 1 (43:47–44:47)
• “It felt good to know that they were gonna get what they deserved. They were gonna pay for what they did.” – Carlos, Julio’s Brother (50:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop: 00:00–00:40
• Victims' Backgrounds: 02:19–04:45
• Julio’s Disappearance & Family Response: 04:45–07:28
• John’s Disappearance & Mother's Search: 13:06–15:43
• Police Dismissals/Contrast in Treatment: 10:46–13:13 & 23:13–23:38
• Connecting the Two Cases: 25:19–26:25
• Surveillance & Suspect Identification: 26:25–30:03
• Hotel Security Lapse: 36:22–38:58
• Digital Financial Trails: 24:26, 33:15, 34:04
• Arrests & Smoking Gun Video: 41:09–44:47
• Toxicology & DA Strategy: 46:05–47:48
• Verdict & Sentencing: 50:00–50:19

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Final Reflections & Advice

• The hosts close with reminders about the dangers still facing LGBTQ+ people in public spaces and the importance of community vigilance:
  • “It really shows us, like, this is another reason why when your kids come out, like, you have to love and support them... If the families and the friends of these men had not pushed this... These guys would still be out there doing that.” – Host 1 (49:39–49:58)
  • Final safety tip: “Stay safe. Please cover those drinks... Cover those goddamns.” (51:30–51:34)

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Summary

This episode of True Crime Obsessed scrutinizes the tragic murders of Julio Ramirez and John Umberger—two gay men whose deaths exposed a pattern of robberies, druggings, and murders in NYC's queer nightlife scene. The hosts balance empathy for the victims with fierce critique of society’s (and law enforcement’s) failures, recognizing the role of systemic prejudice. Justice is ultimately served thanks to the families’ persistence, illustrating the ongoing need for collective care, vigilance, and advocacy in the LGBTQ+ community.

Transcript

[Host 1]

Girl, I'm wearing my Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop T shirt in honor of the gays today.

[Host 2]

Love.

[Host 1]

So anyone who doesn't know, spend a little time on their Wikipedia page. It's really fascinating. The Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop was founded in 1967 by Craig Rodwell, my favorite LGBTQ person from history. He also founded what we now know as the Pride March. But the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop was the first gay owned bookstore in the world. And we're pretty sure it was the first openly gay owned business in America.

[Host 2]

It's unbelievable.

[Host 1]

It's a really amazing story. Go look them up. They closed in 2008. We tried desperately to save it. Weren't able to. But the building is still there. Yes, there is a plaque and you should go check it out. I think it's 13 Christopher Street.

[Host 2]

It's real history, man.

[Host 1]

Yeah, Girl. What are we talking about today?

[Host 2]

Welcome to the bonus episodes. This is, I believe, our sixth bonus episode. This is that show People Magazine Investigates. Yeah, this is going to be a mouthful. Sorry. Season nine, episode two. This is called Death in Hell's Kitchen. It is on discovery.

[Host 1]

What happened to Julio?

[Host 2]

Was his death just an unfortunate accident?

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

I wasn't buying that. Who were these people? How did this happen?

[Host 2]

He was supposed to call me back

[John's Mom (Linda)]

and sorry, there was the very clear voice saying, mom, you need to go get the people that did this.

[Host 2]

The first victim was a young social worker.

[Host 1]

Now we're hearing about a man visiting from Washington D.C. the possible connection sent a shockwave of fear through the gay community.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Community.

[Host 1]

It's terrifying. There will be future targets.

[Reporter]

I was like, you gotta be kidding me. The callousness and the blatant disregard for people was terrifying.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

It's sickening. And for what? A cool video on social media.

[Guest Expert]

The big question is, were these victims of homicides? And how do you prove it?

[Host 1]

Every single bar mentioned in this episode, I've been to a hundred times.

[Host 2]

The queue.

[Host 1]

Yeah, the queue.

[Guest Expert]

The bar.

[Host 2]

The queue is a bar mess. I'll tell you.

[Host 1]

I only actually went to the queue one.

[Host 2]

It was a lot of drama with the queue.

[Host 1]

It was brief. It was only here for a couple of years.

[Host 2]

After you're done with the Oscar Wilde Wikipedia, look up the queue. There's a lot. We're not going to get into it. There's a lot of bullshit on there. They were pretty, like racist and awful.

[Host 1]

I also remember. I remember vividly when this happened.

[Host 2]

Well, this happened in 2022.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And it was like just post Covid, just when people were starting to, like, go back out. Bars were open again. And I remember I was a dad at the time, so I was not going to gay bars very often. But I remember, like, knowing that it felt like there was, like, a serial killer on the loose again.

[Host 2]

Right. So we learn about Julio Ram. He's 25 years old. He's the son of immigrants from El Salvador. Born and raised on Long Island. Loved school, super motivated, super determined.

[Host 1]

His brother Carlos is here. Julio was the baby by seven years in that family.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And he was just, like, fun and silly. Everybody loved him. He wanted to go to college. He wanted to have, like, a really good career. We meet Shiva, his best friend. They met, like, in orientation. They were introduced by somebody else. She immediately puts him in her phone as, like, best friend Julio.

[Host 2]

They hit it off right away.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Julio was very outgoing, very sassy, and

[Host 1]

the most caring person ever.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

If I needed him, he'd be there.

[Host 1]

If I ever needed him, he'd be there. She tells us later. Like, they were in constant contact. They were, like, texting all day, every single day. They were just, like, connected at the hip, virtually.

[Host 2]

Yes. And Carlos, Julio's brother, was the first person that Julio came out to.

[Host 1]

And, like, the coming out story in this family is amazing because Carlos is like, I was, like, cool. Like, that's so amazing. And Carlos says, I thought it was so amazing that I was the person he trusted to be the first person he ever told. And Carlos says, I remember him telling my mom, and his mom was like, okay, my baby. Like, I'm just gonna sob, you know,

[Host 2]

it's really not that hard, everybody.

[Host 1]

It's not. And, like, you know, lately I've been really, like, focusing on this. These cases of these gay men that were murdered in the 70s in the village. And so many of these men, what. What the killers were counting on was that nobody was looking for them. No, they. They didn't have any friends. They wouldn't be missed. These were men in the 70s who were, like, leaving their homes to places that the families never knew where they were going. They just assumed they were out there someday. This is not the fucking case in 2022. They. Loving relationships, deep connections, loving families that are, like, not going to let this shit go unsolved.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And so in 2021, Julio graduates from the University of Buffalo. Listen, he has two master's degrees, one in public health. Wanted social work. Like, he really wanted to do good on this earth.

[Host 1]

He moved to New York, and he gets a job as a psychiatric social worker in Brooklyn. In Brooklyn. Like, oh, My, we need these people and these mental health facilities we need.

[Host 2]

They're like not easy jobs at all. No. Was like so determined and really loved. Like he was just going to make the change that we desperately need to see.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So April 20, 2022. Julio goes to work that day and he speaks with his brother Carlos. And Julio says he has like some plans to stay late at work. That was the last time they spoke.

[Host 1]

So it's April 21, 3:51am now we see the cop body cam footage of this. I remember seeing this on the news. It is horrifying.

[Reporter]

In downtown Manhattan, uniform officer gets flagged down on Stanton street by a taxi cab driver. In the back of the cab, the uniform guys find a 20 to 30 year old male, unconscious, unresponsive. The uniform officers tried CPR to revive him. They call EMS to the scene.

[Host 1]

They find who will later be identified as Julio, unresponsive, in the backseat of this taxi. And we see the cop trying to revive him, like, and he's just. I mean, he's completely unconscious, completely immobile. They transport him to the local hospital where he's like, immediately pronounced dead.

[Host 2]

There's no wallet, no id, no phone. So we know this is Julio, but right now this is a John Doe investigation. So later that morning, BFF Shiva gets the notification that Julio stopped sharing his location with her because that's how close they were.

[Host 1]

Do you share your location with people? Because I don't share my location with. Not, not, not intentionally, but it's just like not a thing for my generation.

[Host 2]

I've done it in certain places, like with, with girlfriends, where it's like, I'm going to be this place. Can I just like give you my location until I get home safely or whatever? I'm not against it. I know that like families. I know couples do it a lot. I don't.

[Host 1]

It seems like automatic with the. In this friend group that everyone is sharing their location with everybody. Like, that's just like a normal thing. I'm sure, like when Daisy has a phone or whatever. And like she said, I'm sure that we will do that then.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[Host 1]

But like these kids at this age, it just seems to be like a normal thing. Like all of the friends have everybody else's location, which feels like a good policy.

[Host 2]

And it also just feels like, you know, he's young, he's gay, he's living in Brooklyn, he's not with his family. I. I don't. I think Shiva, I don't know where she is. She might still be in Buffalo. So it's just a way to, like.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Just make sure that your bestie's safe, you know? I get it.

[Host 1]

And she says that, like, it's weird because we always share a location. She texts him to be like, bitch, why is your location off?

[Host 2]

And the other thing is that she has to text him first. So, like, the location is off. She gets the notification. She also hasn't heard from him. When they're texting all day, every day, she's like, something is up. And so I called Leah's mom, and

[Host 1]

she hadn't heard from him either.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

And she was just crying on the phone because she was so worried.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

And then his job called, saying that he didn't go into work. That's when things got very worrying.

[Host 2]

Then they learned that Julio actually never showed up to work. So now it's all hands on deck.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And they're calling the cops, they're calling the hospitals. And this is when Shiva, like, in the documentary, starts crying and has to get up and take a break. And I just, like, my heart broke for hours.

[Host 1]

To which I said, have a mental health professional on every set. This feels like a thing that should be standard now.

[Host 2]

It felt like it came over her, so she wasn't expecting the emotion to take her over in that moment. And I just. I wanted to, like, reach out for her.

[Host 1]

It's that thing where, like, these. These documentaries are asking so much of these people. They're. I just. I'm hoping that there is somebody on set for them to, like, decompress with afterwards or in the middle or whenever they need, like. I don't remember seeing somebody have this kind of a reaction. Somebody, like, is so overcome by, like, reliving the moment of finding out that her best friend was dead.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

That she literally gets up and walk. Offset. I've not seen that.

[Host 2]

I think it, like, took her by surprise.

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Guest Expert]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

So it's April 22, 2022, with all the calls coming in from Julio's friends, the medical examiner is now able to identify John Doe as Julio Ramirez.

[Host 1]

And they call Julio's dad and they're like, they tell him, like, you need to come identify the body. And Carlos, the brother is like, the whole thing was just like, very abrupt. And this is where Julio's mom calls Shiva to tell her, like, it's the news is just making the rounds.

[Host 2]

I know the cops talk to the cab driver, and the cab driver says

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

he picked him up with three other people from hell's Kitchen. They were driving downtown. The three guys asked the cab driver to stop and let them out. And they just left my brother in there. The cab driver continued to drive, but like two blocks later, he flagged down the police officer because my brother was unresponsive.

[Host 2]

And Carlos is like, what the fuck? You just, like, left my brother there

[Host 1]

and, like, unconscious and unresponsive because it only takes the cab driver two more blocks to have to flag down a cop and be like, this guy, this poor guy is, like, unconscious in the backseat.

[Host 2]

People just left him in this in my car. Like, they flagged me down like, whatever.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So the cops immediately say, this is a, quote, typical drug overdose. And when Julio's friends and family say, that's impossible, the cops are like, well, sometimes you don't know your family, and it's like, fine, is that, can that possibly be true? Of course. Isn't there a chance this was done to him? It's just so dismissive.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

Say to like totally not even hear the family's point of view.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Because it's, we always encounter this and it just always feels like it. The easy answer is this is just an obvious drug overdose. But like get to know the victim a little bit. Like ask a couple of questions. Like, is this completely like abnormal for him to, for this to have happened?

[Host 2]

And also like, hey, cops, if we're going to split hairs here, doesn't that also mean that something illegal went on if he's overdosing on drugs?

[Host 1]

But I guess also like in fairness to my brethren, I will say that like if you're picking up a group of guys from Hellscape Kitchen at three in the morning, chances are they're going to be pretty fucking shit faced, I guess. You know what I mean? But like this guy, this is so beyond that. Like he's like, he's unconscious.

[Host 2]

Right. And we'll also see like he's also, he's gay and he's not white. Yes, that.

[Host 1]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host 2]

So we're talking about the toxicology report. And while it takes a while to get the full report, you can get the preliminary one right away, you know,

[John's Mom (Linda)]

to find out the exact dosage and exactly what he had in his system. It can take several months and even up to a year. So in the weeks after Julio's death, all his family can do is wait for answers.

[Host 1]

Until then, Julio's family is just going to be like completely in limbo.

[Host 2]

Right. So now while everyone's sort of hurry up and waiting for any information About Julio, it's May 27, 2022, five weeks later, and we're going to learn about John Umberger and his mom Linda is here.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So on that day, May 27, John was traveling to New York from D.C. for Memorial Day weekend to see friends from college.

[Host 2]

I gotta say, long weekends like that, especially Memorial Day weekend, are so great because no one's here. Yeah, the city is empty.

[Host 1]

John is here to like go to dinner with his friends, go dancing in Hell's Kitchen.

[Host 2]

Well, he's got a pretty sweet deal because he gets to stay in this fancy pants townhouse that his company that he works for has been renovating on like 60th between park and Madison.

[Host 1]

And we see the townhouse, it looks, seems like he's there alone. He's got the place to himself. It's like a mansion.

[Host 2]

Pretty Sweet deal.

[Host 1]

And so that night, like I said, he had dinner with friends. He goes dancing at the cute club in Hell's Kitchen. He sends a text to his mom of him dancing. And we see the actual text of him, like, dancing, like, just hours before. What comes next?

[Host 2]

He's got the Vodsad. He's good to go. So by May 28, 2022, Saturday morning at 9:15, John also stopped sharing his location with his mom.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So I just loved that John and Julio, like, have these relationships in their life where people are, like, just concerned about their safety.

[Host 1]

I know. And I was thinking, like, does that mean, like, that's when the phones died? You know what I mean? Like that, like, because are they really going to go into the phone and unshare. I mean, I guess if they're trying to sell the phone or whatever, scrubbing it. But the mom is saying, I'd send

[John's Mom (Linda)]

a text to him saying, hey, how's it going? He didn't respond. But my text kept saying red.

[Host 1]

So she can see that somebody is seeing these text messages and not responding to them, which raises, like, big alarms for her because she's like, my. My son would never do that to me. Like, my son would never let me just, like, worry like this for days.

[Host 2]

But you know what? I'm sure when someone steals a phone, the first thing they do is make sure location sharing isn't on.

[Host 1]

Y. Yeah.

[Host 2]

They probably either did go in that route because if the texts are being read that they went and turned the location off or they're scrubbing it.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Either way, the mom knows something is up because the texts are being read and not responded to.

[Host 2]

Now days are going by and Linda hasn't heard from John and he's supposed to go back to Washington, D.C. and she leaves, like, this frantic message. She's super worried, like, by Wednesday.

[Host 1]

Like, she hasn't heard from him since Friday.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And she says, like, please just let me know you made it home. Like, she's trying not to be a helicopter mom.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, he's like a grown man. He's out with his friends.

[Host 1]

I'm sorry. Like, if you are, like, in constant contact with your kid who's, like, away for the weekend in, like, another city and you get to be the helicopter mom, like, and he's not responding to you. Like, you get to be the helicopter mom.

[Host 2]

I was in a situation where I was, quote, by myself in a city, and I was just there to meet friends. And I don't. I didn't live there and I was to the point where I had location sharing on with my mom.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And then it was off.

[Host 2]

She would ask to. I mean, she sent me a video of Jonathan Groff before, and I saw I was working and I didn't. It was like, his last night. And she's always sending me Instagram reels about, like, Harry Styles and Jonathan.

[Host 1]

That is very.

[Host 2]

So funny. Or like, cute dogs. But if I don't respect. I didn't see it. And then hours later, she's like, hey, G. Like, just checking in because, like,

[Host 1]

making sure you're still alive.

[Host 2]

I didn't respond to a Jonathan Groff video.

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

Something is deathly wrong.

[Host 1]

Something is very wrong.

[Host 2]

But she'll, like, check in. So I'm just saying, like, if you're sharing locations, that's for a reason. So that. For this specific reason.

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

So it makes sense.

[Host 1]

So we see the mom going through, like, we're at home with her. She's going through, like, old photos and telling us about John. She says when he was 15. The way she says this. I love it. When he was 15, he shared with me that he was gay, and it was just beautiful. Like, I just not. Like he came out to me or like, he admitted or acknowledged it. He shared with me that he was gay, and it was just beautiful.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I hate this next sentence.

[Host 2]

This is always a little hard to hear in cases like this.

[Host 1]

John Umberger graduated from Georgia Tech in 2015 and spent most of his career living in Washington, D.C. working in conservative politics. In conservative politics.

[Host 2]

Here's why I struggle with this.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Is because I hope that maybe he was, like, working from the inside to try to, like, dismantle all the hatred. I don't know. But it is hard to hear when someone who's gay or in a marginalized community that conservative politics is historically against.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I'm also gonna say that, like, in Conservative politics, in 2022. Was after 2016, pretty bad. I'm just gonna say, like, that's. And I did a little googing. I couldn't really find anything. So that's. We just leave it there and go back to loving this guy.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it definitely. I mean, still. I mean, God, it's just.

[Host 1]

I'm sorry. I guess I'll just say it. It's hard for me to hear my gay brother working in conservative politics in

[Host 2]

2022 since graduating in 2015.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Because, like, when 2016, you know.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very. It's not like it's. It would. Sorry, I'm just now I'm just. Now I'm just talking about it because I'm wearing my Oscar Wild Memorial bookshop fucking T shirt. And we started a riot and then we made a march and now we're here. So I don't know, like, it's hard because we also, like, we see videos of John and he just seems like, so sweet and he seems like the kind of person I would have been friends with. And I like, I. Gays in conservative politics. I don't get it. I feel like it's okay to say that out loud. I just really don't get it.

[Host 2]

Especially now. Your own self interest is hard when there's so much to be done on the other side of it.

[Host 1]

I know. And I'm like, we get.

[Host 2]

They're killing you.

[Host 1]

Literally, literally killing you. Literally taking away your rights. They don't want us to be parents. Like, it doesn't make any sense to me. And like, and. And then it makes me wonder about the mom who we learn nothing about. So this is just speculating wildly, but I'm like, oh, God. Like, my brain starts to spiral.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Same.

[Host 1]

This was a detail we didn't need People magazine presents or whatever.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And again, look, I'm not. I want to be so careful here because this really has nothing to do with the story at all. Right. And like, I understand.

[Host 1]

Well, I'm a gay and you're a member of the community, so I think that we're. It's okay that we have opinions about this.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I'm wearing my pride shirt too. Yes, girl. I'm hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping that maybe he was trying to be a spy on the inside.

[Host 1]

No, it's just not a thing. I love you for the optimism, but, like, it just isn't. It just isn't a thing.

[Host 2]

I know. And I also, even if he was, I'd be like, you know, like, even people who claim that they are. I just, I can't really.

[Host 1]

I know. But here, here's the other thing. We are going to learn a lot about his mom and how much, like, she loved him and made his coming out journey very easy, which is amazing. Bare minimum. But also the way that like his community from home, like his mom and her friends show up, up for him. Like, it's all very good. It's just a big question mark over the conservative politics.

[Host 2]

It was. It was two words that really.

[Host 1]

I know. And I didn't catch it the first time, by the way. It was only upon the second watching,

[Host 2]

I was like, what? Rewind? Sure. I was reading the Closed captions I

[Host 1]

was like, oh, I know, I know. Let me just end this by saying, obviously there's no justification for any. For what happened.

[Host 2]

It doesn't really matter.

[Host 1]

It doesn't matter.

[Host 2]

It doesn't matter at all.

[Host 1]

No story. But it just. It was a. It was a moment of like, wait, why? What?

[Host 2]

Yeah, it snapped me right, right into check

[Host 1]

girl. Zenny is back. So look, Zenni is an online eyewear shop. I was just on their site today. I was reordering frames because I've ordered from them in the past. They do everything from prescription glasses to sunglasses to blue light lenses, starting at under 30 bucks. I cannot explain to you how affordable these frames are.

[Host 2]

Right. And it's easy. You go to zenni.com you pick a frame, upload your prescription and they ship it to your door. You don't need an appointment. You're not going to the store, you're not getting upsold at the counter.

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No. And let me tell you, they have try on feature that is. I've seen other ones that are awful. Does anyone like, you literally turn on your camera on your computer. It takes a picture. The glasses stay with you as you move around so you can actually, like, see yourself from the side. As a glasses wearer, I cannot tell you how valuable that really is.

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

So John and his mom are very close. They talk every other day. By Wednesday, she's still not heard a word from him. And this is when she calls the cops.

[Host 2]

Day six.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

John's mother calls the police precinct closest to the townhouse and says, please go do a welfare check on My son. Shortly thereafter, I received a phone call informing me that John's body had been found inside the town house.

[Host 1]

They find his body dead on the bed, and they say that he's been dead probably for four days.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And they show a pixelated picture. It's way too much like, they. Like he's there fully clothed on the bed, and they pixelate it, but you can still see everything.

[Host 2]

They do a horrible job.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Censoring these photos.

[Host 1]

You don't need to show your work like that. I get it. I believe that if there's a picture to be gotten, you would have gotten it People magazine. I don't think you should have shown it.

[Host 2]

Agreed. But the cops say, like, no signs of 4th century, no signs of a struggle, no signs of any criminality at all.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And the cops tell Linda that John died of a drug overdose. And much like Julio's people, Linda's like, absolutely not. So we'll get back to that in a minute. But John's phone is missing. His wallet is still there, but everything inside the wallet is gone.

[Host 1]

Yeah, his license, his debit cards, his credit cards. And, like, this is where the mom says, like, in that moment, I realized that something evil had caused the death of my son.

[Host 2]

100%. And so this is ruled as a suspicious death, but the medical examiner wants to look into it more. And then we also learn, like. Like, these things take forever anyway. But now that it's 2022, and because of COVID there was this backlog, so now we have that to deal with, too. So things take even longer.

[Host 1]

Everything is on the killer side. Every single thing is on the killer side. Everything always.

[Host 2]

It feels like everything. Sometimes it's like, wow, we're being watched everywhere. Yeah, we're being tracked and watched everywhere. Like, it must be hard to be a criminal. But then you hear things like this, and it's like, oh, let's just give them plenty of time to get away.

[Host 1]

And my whole thing, too, is that, like, based on how. What we see, like, you're always going to get caught, you know, Like. Like, all of these criminals are, like, living for the moment.

[Host 2]

They must be, because, like, 2022 is special.

[Host 1]

You know what I mean? Like, you're, like, you're never gonna get away with this, like, for forever.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So the mom is saying the weekend after John's body was found, she and, like, six other people came to New York to retrieve the body and see if they could find, like, get any indication as to what happened. And the mom, like, God love her, she goes to the morgue to sit with him and have a moment with him by herself.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

I laid across his body and said, I need you to tell me everything that you can, and I need to know what happened. And there was the very clear voice that only a mother can recognize from her child of saying, I didn't do this to myself. And, mom, you need to go get the people that did this to me.

[Host 1]

He said, I did not do this to myself, and you need to go get the people that did this to me.

[Host 2]

Right now we're gonna see a very, very stark contrast between how the cops respond to a white, conservative man y a non white man from El Salvador. El Salvador. Because they say the mom's like, oh, we just, like, went into the precinct, and, like, we don't believe it's an overdose, so investigate. And the cops are like, oh, he's white and conservative. Done. Now, Julio's family has a totally different experience. They have to take to the streets to get the cops to care about.

[Host 1]

It's true. They hold up, like, a protest, basically, in hell's kitchen and, like, march up 8th Avenue.

[Host 2]

And, like, the community has to come together to make sure that this is on the news so we can keep Julio's name.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Present front of mind. And that didn't happen with John.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

My point is, it's right here for you. The discrepancies here.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And so the detectives look at John's credit report, and they call American express because that's, like, his card of choice. And they ask if there were transactions between the night of May 27 and June 1, which means there would have been transactions after he died.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

And they. American express says, yes, there were, but we can't release any further information without a subpoena.

[Host 2]

Now, meanwhile, Carlos, Julio's brother, has Julio's computer.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

And he sees this budgeting app because Julio was, like, on top of his.

[Host 1]

I'm like, should I have a budgeting app? I guess I'm married. A budgeting app. So I'm sure we have many.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

I opened a budgeting app, and I saw all these different transactions and large amounts of money being transferred through apple pay and zelle. And it cleaned out his bank account.

[Host 2]

So Carlos sees all of these transactions from after Julio was killed totaling, like, $20,000.

[Host 1]

But this is what I'm saying. Like, there are transfers being made from bank accounts and credit cards through apple pay and zelle, and I'm, like, so traceable. How do you think you're going to get away with this is the assumption that this is gay guy that nobody's going to care about, or. Or is it just, like, they're just not thinking ahead more than one day?

[Host 2]

I think the people who did this. And my point will be proven, forthcoming. But they're all idiots, guys. Either they're not thinking about it, or they're running out the clock to see how much they can steal before they get caught or whatever. Because I'll get into my theory later.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But Carlos brings this to the cops, and he says, we didn't hear anything. Great.

[Host 1]

When Julio's friends hold that vigil in Hell's Kitchen, and it makes the new. It happens to be Pride Month. So it's getting a lot of coverage that there's, like, these two gay men that have been killed in, like, sort of similar ways in the same area of Hell's Kitchen. One of the detectives in John's case sees the vigil on the news, and he's like, wait, these are similar. It's. They're gay men out in Hell's Kitchen. They both died having looked to have overdosed on drugs. Phones were stolen. Credit cards were used. And so the detective says, like, it becomes apparent that this was, like, the same MO in both cases.

[Host 2]

And so now both cases are on the news, and the gay community is obviously very alarmed.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I kept looking for my friends. I'm like. You know what I mean? Like, every time they show, like, the videos outside the bars and you see, like, the gays on their phones, like, fixing their hair, it's just the gays are very much who we are.

[Host 2]

Hell's Kitchen.

[Host 1]

Like, I know if you're in New York, come spend some time in Hell's Kitchen, family. Especially in the summer, it is a party over there. So June 7th, the subpoena comes through so that the detectives can now look at John's credit history. What they discover is that There are nearly $11,000 worth of charges racked up

[Guest Expert]

after his death were several transactions at some liquor stores, some retail purchases.

[Host 1]

There's more than $11,000 in charges racked up after his death at liquor stores and retail stores. Like, mostly buying fucking shoes.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And the detectives determined that the last location where he legitimately used his credit card was at the Q Club.

[Host 2]

We see the video.

[Host 1]

Yeah. They go to the Q Club and they pull the. They say inside everything was normal. They see him dancing. There's no violence. There's no fights or whatever outside. This really alarmed me. It's scary because John Lee leaves on his own and like, 10 seconds later, we see these two men follow him,

[Host 2]

like, notice him, clock him, and now follow him.

[Host 1]

And so they get more surveillance video from, like, businesses up 8th Avenue. As he's walking up 8th Avenue, and we see these two guys approach him. He doesn't seem to mind having been approached by these guys.

[Host 2]

Yeah, to me, I saw that as, like, he's clearly not trying to engage. He's not responding. Like, for me, like, I know that move very well. You don't answer, you don't look, you don't say anything. You just walk faster.

[Host 1]

And it's like, it's so interesting because I was. I didn't really take it like that. I was sort of watching it as like, this guy left a club, these two guys came up to him later. We don't really know what happened. We see them turn the corner and they, like, vanish from the camera view. But then they get the video from the outside of that fancy townhouse.

[Host 2]

Right. I just want to slow down on the timing here because it's 5am and John and these two guys walk out of the view of the camera. Now by 6am we have video from outside of the townhouse, and this red SUV pulls up. So that's an hour.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Difference.

[Host 1]

And then they all get out and, like, John doesn't look under duress. It doesn't look like he's being forced to, like, take the. They all sort of get out of that car, John and these two other men, and they go into the townhouse.

[Host 2]

So that's one hour unaccounted for. And then 7am an hour later, two. The two guys leave the townhouse and get back in the same car. So it's not a cab, it's not a ride share. It's like their car.

[Guest Expert]

About an hour later, the two unidentified individuals leave the townhouse, get back in this red Durango and leave the location. And we were like, okay, these are probably the last two guys that saw him alive. So we have to identify them.

[Host 1]

They are in the townhouse for an hour until 7am and then they leave without John. The two guys that came with him now leave without him.

[Host 2]

And it's their car or a rental or something, but it's not a ride share. Like, they can't. They left in the car they showed up in.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

This is where we learned that automated license plate readers are everywhere in New York City. Every intersection. You're constantly being watched. I don't even try.

[Host 1]

I'm like. So people that are like you, it's big, bro. I Don't. Good. Get all the murderers. Every time we get a murderer, I'm. I'm not. I'm less mad about it.

[Host 2]

I know. I just. I agree with that part of it. There are just things that make me go, like, it's such a slippery slope. And then I know, like, they're gonna, like, use it for evil.

[Host 1]

Well, I mean, God knows we are living through a time of, like, they'll find you any way they can for any single thing. I get it. I get it. I. God damn it.

[Host 2]

I know it sucks, but here's the info they get. So it's a Florida license plate, and it's registered to a rental car company way downtown in Battery Park. So they get a copy of the ID that was used to rent the car. This idiot's name is Robert DeMaio. Say stupid, everybody.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And so, like, they. They're like, oh, that's the guy from the camera in front of the Q Club. Like, it's the same guy. They get a video of him from the car rental place. They see him, like, renting the car, wearing the very outfit that he was seen on later that night, like, outside the club following John home.

[Host 2]

Dingbat.

[Host 1]

Dingbat.

[Host 2]

What a dingbat. And, like.

[Host 1]

But that's why I'm like, these guys are not playing the long game.

[Host 2]

No.

[Host 1]

They know they're going to get caught eventually.

[Host 2]

And they ask them, they're like, what's the deal with this? Like, Robert de Mayo Gu. He's basically a loser. Like, one of the cops is. Like, he had some prior arrests, nothing crazy. Like, even his criminal record is unimpressive.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Guest Expert]

Right.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah, it's true,

[Guest Expert]

girl.

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Guest Expert]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Reporter]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

And put that cell phone right in your pocket.

[Host 2]

You look so cute. So they look at John's credit card transactions. It's like Ubers, cabs, which is weird because you rented the car or maybe they're paying for their friends or whatever. Transactions at liquor store. There's a charge on uber eats for $731.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Host 2]

I don't know what. How many apps can one person $731 on Uber Eats, $731.27.

[Host 1]

In addition to fraudulent purchases at liquor and retail stores made after John's death, there are several direct transactions to a phone number.

[Reporter]

There were several transactions to the total of like $1,400 made from John's American Express card to a Jquan Hamilton who lives in Brooklyn.

[Host 1]

There's also direct cash transfers to a guy named Jaquan Hamilton.

[Host 2]

Right. This idiot's also on the video.

[Host 1]

So that's the other guy in the video. So, like, they're basically just like, taking John's credit cards and like, sending cash transfers to. To themselves.

[Host 2]

Everything they're doing is digital and traced and trackable. I don't know what they're thinking.

[Host 1]

And there's no way they don't know that.

[Host 2]

They're like, get, like transferring money through Zell.

[Host 1]

Right?

[Host 2]

Well, and I just want to slow down on something because we. About this Jquan Hamilton guy, we're told what's on his record. And this woman who's a People magazine reporter says, theft, domestic battery, nothing that screams murder. That's a pretty uninformed and irresponsible thing to say. People magazine reporter. Yeah, that domestic battery doesn't scream murder. It most certainly fucking does. Yeah, that's true for a woman reporter representing People magazine to say that. I was floored. Yeah, I was floored.

[Host 1]

I missed. I missed it too. I went right past it.

[Host 2]

I was like, holy shit. So all of these names are all over Julio's bank tran Transactions and John's bank. These are all the same guys.

[Host 1]

And thank God these detectives are like, let's connect the dots here. Like, it's the same guys, like, stealing the credit card information and sending the cash back and forth to each other in both of these gay men's murders.

[Host 2]

And the cops are like, cool, we have them on the money stuff that is like, open and shut.

[Guest Expert]

The big question is, were they victims of homicides? And how do you prove it? How do you know that they didn't voluntarily ingest the unknown drugs that ultimately killed them? Because, remember, there's still no determination via the medical examiner for cause and manner of death in both cases.

[Host 1]

That was the moment that I was like, my God, they're not going to get these guys. You could put anything in anybody's drink, and then they drink it. They didn't know it was in the drink. And. But you can say they. You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Or they were just partying and whatever. And like, they. We left. He was alive when we left. It's not my responsibility or whatever.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Now what they're going to do is look for other cases with other victims and hopefully survivors. And the way they do that, you got to find. Follow the money.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So they start looking at the finances of these guys that are in the footage, and they're looking at all their transactions over the last year, and they track down these names. And it turns out that many of the money victims were also victims of being drugged or other violent crimes with

[Host 1]

these guys, and they just weren't killed. And like, all of these guys that are victims, like the living victims report same story. They went to a nightclub, they go home with someone. They pass out, they wake up, they realize their island gone. Their credit cards have been used, their phones have been stolen and used, and

[Host 2]

they're all gay men, and they all want to be anonymous. Yes.

[Host 1]

Now. Now we have the most insane surveillance video I have ever seen. I And this is coming from somebody who worked at a hotel in the front desk area for five years.

[Host 2]

I was, like, beside myself watching it is.

[Host 1]

I have never seen anything like this.

[Host 2]

So it's footage from a hotel lobby.

[Host 1]

It's the Hyatt Hotel in Union Square.

[Host 2]

You see clear as day on the video. Yeah, I'm outing them for a fucking reason.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

What happens is this Jaquan Hamilton guy is talking to another guy outside the hotel. The guy is now this, like, one of our victims who we don't know his name because he wants to stay anonymous.

[Reporter]

Jaquan Hamilton is with an unidentified male. They're wheeling this guy in, completely unconscious, on a luggage cart past the front desk, into the elevator upstairs into his hotel room. And then they come out, the two of them, a couple of minutes later, like nothing happened.

[Host 2]

She's helping them open the door and get the luggage cart through because it's so hard to maneuver because there's a.

[Host 1]

Literally passed out. Now, I want to say that I worked at the W Hotel on 49th in Lexington for five years. We were trained almost monthly on, like, nobody gets a key without a photo id. There are so many protocols about not giving room access to people who are not on the road. There's the security protocol, uploads you. And I was just saying this to somebody the other day. We were trained that, like, the New York Times will come in here and try to fool you. The New York Post will come in here and try to fool you and write an expose on how you gave them access to a room without proper identification. Watching this go down like this. Imagine if that were a woman. Imagine if that had been a woman passed out on a luggage cart and just, like, wheeled through the lot lobby with these two men taken up to. We see them put the cart in the elevator, go up to the room. They take the guy into the room, and then they leave, like, five minutes later like that.

[Host 2]

I hope she was fired. And that woman and that organization, the Hyatt Union Squares, should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

[Host 1]

I cannot believe that when this documentary came out, this wasn't all over TikTok and Instagram because it is a breach of security protocol that especially working in hotels and units, York City, which I did. It is drilled into your head. Drilled into your head.

[Host 2]

And the way she's helping them is like, let me get the door for you. Because it's so cumbersome to move that. You know what I mean? Like, she's trying to be, like, a good employee, but, like, she is. I couldn't believe it. I was.

[Host 1]

And we're told that the men just said to her, oh, this guy had too much to drink. We're just taking him up to his room.

[Host 2]

Right?

[Host 1]

There is security in every hotel. Like, you just call security and let them handle it. Like, how do you know this guy doesn't need medical attention instantly?

[Host 2]

You don't. And so this guy, thank God, survived.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And he called the cops to report everything missing. And what. What did the cops do when this guy first called? A big fat nothing.

[Host 1]

Yes, exactly.

[Host 2]

So the paper trail leads us to three more guys who are like in this crime gang or whatever.

[Guest Expert]

Like this, like, bunch of guys based on financial transactions. About 15 other victims were tied to this crew. And without a doubt, they targeted gay males.

[Host 2]

They have about 15 victims. They've stolen tens of thousands of dollars. But here's what they're doing. Like my. They don't like, lay this out, but what I think they're doing is targeting gay men that they think the cops aren't going to care about.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Drugging them to steal from them. And they don't really care if they live or die.

[Host 1]

Right. Because what I was going to say earlier was that like, their defense would be what? We were just drinking. What are you talking about? Because all of the. What kills them is the mixture of the drugs in the booze.

[Host 2]

Right. Which we'll learn about later.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but like that's, that's their whole thing. Like my, my whole thing is like, okay, fine, like they didn't, maybe they didn't all die, but like you were always going to get caught for stealing their credit cards.

[Host 2]

And I think they were. That was like the cost of doing business.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Because they just figured like, they will

[Host 1]

go to jail for 18 months or

[Host 2]

whatever it is the gay guy doesn't. Maybe they were like actually looking for guys who weren't out. I don't know.

[Host 1]

Well, and the other thing that we're going to learn eventually too is that most of these guys didn't even file police reports. And like one of the cops is going to say, like, you know, they didn't. Some of them didn't want their family to know that they were gay. Some of them just felt stupid.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Like, and the other thing that I was thinking too, that nobody says is that like, if this happened to me, I probably would be like, I cannot believe I drank that much last night. I would totally blame myself for passing out.

[Host 2]

Really?

[Host 1]

100%. Like, if I were out at point a bar drinking with my friends, I'm talking to these two guys, they're buying me drinks, I'm drinking with my friends. All of a sudden I wake up in my hotel room the next day.

[Host 2]

But you know, you know when it's not just alcohol. Oh, 100%.

[Host 1]

And especially the cocktail of the drugs, we're going to find out that it was in these things. Like, this was not the. Whatever the drug is that you give people to make them pass out. This was like a cocktail of drugs that kills people.

[Host 2]

Yeah. But you know, when it's more than alcohol. I promise you. Yeah, like you will. You would be I can't even. Like, I'm so glad you don't. But the. That feeling, that pit. And you're like, like. Because then the worst possibilities come crashing down on you. But it's a different feeling. Yeah, it's a different sick. It's not just hungover, it's a. You're, like, sick.

[Host 1]

And I imagine too, like, if the night just ends at like 10 o' clock and all of a sudden it's 9 o' clock the next morning, it's very.

[Host 2]

It's bad. Steve would be like, you. Like, you would know.

[Host 1]

You would just.

[Host 2]

You would know.

[Host 1]

That's all I'll say. God, girl. Rocket Money is back. Look, fam, you know this by now. Rocket Money is a finance app. It helps you track subscriptions and has the ability to cancel unwanted ones within the app with a few taps, saving users over $880 million in canceled subscriptions.

[Host 2]

They have this automatic transaction categorization across all your accounts, which is really great for me because I'm like, what goes where? What is this? You can see everything in one place. You can know, am I even using that? Do I even want this? Oh, this is really bad for my budget.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And then figure it out and they'll help you cancel it.

[Host 1]

And I got to tell you too, if they see any suspicious activity on your account, they send you an email. That's like my favorite thing. I'm like, yes, Rocket Money. I did mean to do that, but thank you for checking, girl.

[Host 2]

And they have all these financial goals and users who create a financial goal with Rocket money save over $70 on average within the first 30 days.

[Host 1]

I cannot tell you how easy it is to find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. The first time I use it, the first time I signed up, there was like 12.

[Host 2]

I know.

[Host 1]

They all popped right up and you're like, oh.

[Host 2]

But then you can also, like. It consolidates your checking, savings, all your loans, all your investments. Like so, fam.

[Host 1]

As I said, Rocket Money is a personalized finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[Host 2]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join@rocket money.com obsessed.

[Host 1]

That's rocket money.com obsessed.

[Host 2]

Rocketmoney.com obsessed. So they pick up that idiot Robert DeMaio, who's wearing the same clothes, who was using, who rented the car in his own name.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

They get him on one of the, quote, non fatal robberies.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And so they have him in custody for 24 hours. And they want information on the rest of the robberies. And two murders, by the way. Yeah, at least two murders.

[Host 1]

The other guy, too, that he was with, and he's like, I only know that guy is Whoopty.

[Host 2]

Whatever.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But the cop who gets the call, he goes, I'm just trying to have, like, a nice little Saturday. I look at my wife and go,

[Guest Expert]

I got to go.

[Host 2]

Brooklyn right now?

[Reporter]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I can't believe this.

[Host 1]

So he gets downtown, and he's like. He's. He's questioning this DeMeo guy. This is when we learn that the other guy is only known as Whoopty. And he says, because they're talking now, he's like. The conversation later led itself organically to John, the guy that died in the townhouse. And he says.

[Reporter]

He ends up telling me that he and Whoopty were in the apartment with John and that they had been partying. And at some point, he hears somebody snort something. And then Whoopty comes out and says, yo, let's go. And they get up to leave, and he saw John conscious and alive and waving goodbye to him as they left.

[Host 1]

John is conscious and waving goodbye as these guys take off.

[Host 2]

Idiot. Robert was like, thanks.

[Host 1]

Thank you.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

Bye.

[Host 2]

So, obviously, this is a lie. And guess what? We can prove it.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Because they go through Demeo's phone. Like, in the moment, they take his phone, they find a video of them going through John's apartment or, like, the apartment that he's staying in. They say the anti gay F word. Did you hear it?

[Host 2]

Of course I did this. It's a very scary video because, you know, at the very least, John is totally unconscious against his will. It's very. It was really stuck with.

[Host 1]

According to the cop, we. We see John on the bed, and the cop is telling us John is dead, that they are taking a video with John's dead body. They're laughing. They think it's hilarious.

[Host 2]

It's too much.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like, I understand that they. We have to know some of it for, like, how the. The weight of this crime and, like, what people can do. But I just. There was something to. It felt so scary.

[Host 1]

There's a thing that happens in documentaries that we need to, like, make better, which is just because you have it, you think you have to use it.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

I know.

[Host 1]

Just because you got, like. I'm sure the director actor was like, oh, my God, we got the video.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

Right?

[Host 1]

Because it was probably filed in the court, and then it becomes public record or whatever.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

You don't have to use it.

[Host 2]

And they're, like, laughing, and it's just. It was. I mean, they're just evil.

[Host 1]

Absolutely evil.

[Host 2]

Even if they didn't intentionally kill someone, the point was that, well, if they did, who cares, right?

[Host 1]

And they would have. They would have an excuse. We were all just drinking and partying. This guy took it too far. How are we supposed to know?

[Host 2]

And they're, like, doing, like, a tour. They're like, it's such a violation on every level because they're doing, like, almost like a tour of this townhouse. And, like, looking through all this because it's like fancy pants and making fun of him. And making fun of him. It's. It's so fucking awful. But, like, we have, like, this is a smoking gun and then some.

[Host 1]

We have them, but the problem is,

[Reporter]

I knew that I had these guys dead to rights, but in order to prove a murder, you need the medical examiner to rule the cause of death a homicide.

[Host 1]

The medical examiner still hasn't ruled the deaths a homicide because we haven't gotten the full autopsy report back yet.

[Host 2]

And we're told that can take forever. So these guys are just, like, out in the world for eight months.

[Host 1]

These guys are out in the world while we're waiting for the toxicology. But it finally comes in in February 2023 for both. For both Julio and for John. And the results show similar chemicals in both of their systems, including cocaine, fentanyl, and lidocaine. And one of the detectives is like, I've never seen lidocaine in an overdose until this case. And he's explaining that, like, the combination of fentanyl and lidocaine will slow your heart down. And obviously, if you take too much of it, it will just stop your heart.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And the fact that that's so rare. He's like, well, that's the connection. The fact that it's lidocaine.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So both of these deaths are ruled as homicides, and they start arresting these pieces of shit. So for the murders of Julio and John and also all of these other financial tech crimes or whatever, but there's only enough. They have, like, 15 other victims that we know of so far with, like, the.

[Host 1]

All of them unnamed.

[Host 2]

And there's only enough to charge these guys in two of the cases.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So they have warrants for. There's like, a. These. It's like a crew of, like, five assholes doing this.

[Host 1]

It's crazy.

[Host 2]

So they have warrants for all of them. We're told that some of them just start turning themselves in. Yeah.

[Host 1]

But they say by April 17, all five suspects are in custody. The families are dead, devastated. Like, Julio's family is just heartbroken. John's mom is beside herself.

[Host 2]

We learned something really, really interesting here, because as the case moves forward, we're

[Reporter]

told this is the first time the Manhattan DA's office was charging a murder case where a drug, Fentanyl, was used as the weapon.

[Host 1]

Fentanyl is the murder weapon, which is

[Host 2]

like, it's so fucking rampant and so dangerous. I, like, I don't understand it. But, like, that's a big deal.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Because they, they said before that it was homicide and commission of a robbery. So they were using the fentanyl to incapacit these guys, to rob them, and it killed them.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

It's huge.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So In January of 2025, the trial finally starts. We have years later, we have everything we need. We have the financial records, all of the surveillance footage, the cops, body cam footage, their own videos that they were taking and sharing with each other.

[Host 1]

And, like, that's the thing. The families, like, just cannot believe that all of this was for booze and shoes. Like, that's what it comes down to. Like, booze and shoes. And you guys died.

[Host 2]

$731.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And it's like any of these other guys could also have died and it wouldn't have mattered to these men at all.

[Host 2]

What is wrong with you? I know, first of all, stay. But also, what is wrong with you? Because I say, say stupid. Like, but that's such a stupid bullshit thing of me to say, because people died to. Julio died, John died. And other people could have been killed in connection to this.

[Host 1]

I stand by. Stay stupid. Because we gotta get these guys.

[Host 2]

We have to.

[Host 1]

The other thing too is, like, you don't even have to be stupid to not be able to get away with it. Like, you just have to know going into these things, you're not gonna get away with it. Like, you're. You're going to get caught. Is it worth it?

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

I know.

[Host 1]

Well, it's one thing if you're Ted Bunny and you're born a fucking monster and you're going to. You're Jeffrey Dahmer. Like, you're just born evil and you're gonna kill these guys. Just wanted money for booze and shoes and Uber eats like it's you. It's not worth it.

[Host 2]

But I also think they wanted to be violent and evil because, like, the videos are really disturbing and, like, they documented everything. And, like, I don't want to get into it too much, but like, these guys are either passed out or now deceased, and they're, like, hitting them.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like, they wanted to do bad things

[Host 1]

to people, to gay people.

[Host 2]

And, like. And they found a community where, like, the cops, especially if you're like, Jul, will, like, not really care and look the other way. Or, like, it'll go to the bottom of the list. So we see this all the time.

[Host 1]

But I'm so glad that we live in a world now where so often we, like. Because none of this would have happened without their families.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

And it really shows us, like, this is another reason why when your kids come out, like, you have to love and support them.

[Host 2]

Because, like, fucking minimum.

[Host 1]

If the families and the friends of these men had not pushed this, if the mom hadn't stirred into the police station and the friends hadn't had the rally, you know, outside in. In Hell's Kitchen, this wouldn't have happened. You know, like, we. We never would have had a resolution here. These guys would still be out there doing that. There'd be so many more gay, dead gay people. So I stand by. Stay stupid.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I'll take it.

[Host 1]

But now, February 10, 2025, four and a half hours of deliberation. The jury reaches a verdict.

[Host 2]

Good afternoon. Some breaking news just into the newsroom. The three men accused of running a drugging and robbery scheme in the city have all been found guilty.

[Carlos (Julio's brother)]

It felt good to know that they were gonna get what they deserved. They were gonna pay for what they did.

[Host 1]

They're all found guilty. Hamilton and DeMeo get 40 years to life. Jacob Oroso gets 20 to life. I mean, it just ends with everybody being like. And we are devastated, and we'll never be the same.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And it, like, takes the community to rally and get this shit done. Like, it was still even in 2022. Yeah. Like, we needed to, like, the. The. The vigils and the marches to get on the fucking news so that the cops would give a shit about Julio.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It is crazy to me.

[Host 1]

It's crazy.

[Host 2]

It's crazy.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God, girl. We did. People Magazine Investigates Death in Hell's Kitchen. Do you love that? I no longer do the. Girl. What do we do?

[Host 2]

I. Well, I know I can tell that. I'm like, oh, he put it at the end of the.

[Host 1]

No, you know what it is? I'm using Google Docs now, which you've been trying to get me to do for years.

[Host 2]

Oh, it's right at the top.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Once you put in the title, you just hit enter, then it becomes the title. Of the whole doc.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Oh, I know.

[Host 1]

I listen. News to me.

[Host 2]

I love Google Docs.

[Host 1]

News to me. Look, I don't even know what to tell the people.

[Guest Expert]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Because this is our bonus episode. So we'll see you in another week or two or something like that. We got some other good series coming up for you on these bonus apps.

[Host 1]

These are good. I really. I like this People magazine one.

[Host 2]

It's good. We will get a couple more in there, too.

[Host 1]

All right, cool. All right, fam, we love you. Thanks for hanging out with us on the bonus app.

[Host 2]

Stay safe. Please cover those drinks.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Cover those goddamns.

[Host 2]

Cover them up.

[Host 1]

All right. Bye.

[John's Mom (Linda)]

Bye.

[Host 2]

Love you.