510: The Many Lives of Benjaman Kyle - Part 1

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 510: The Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle - Part 1

Release Date: July 7, 2026
Hosts: Gillian Pensavalle and Patrick Hinds

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the bizarre and tangled true crime case featured in the HBO Max/Discovery documentary The Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle. Spanning two episodes (the podcast covers episode 1 and 2; parts 3 and 4 are on Patreon), the hosts—using their signature blend of humor, sass, and skepticism—recap the convoluted story of a man found naked and amnesiac behind a Burger King dumpster. Is Benjamin Kyle a real victim of one of the rarest medical conditions, or an elaborate fraud manipulating everyone around him? The episode explores the investigation, the layers of deception, and the parade of documentarians (and TV doctors!) drawn into Ben’s orbit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: A Case Unlike Any Other

• The episode opens with skepticism about severe, "complete blank slate" amnesia, with Dr. Kim Gorgon (forensic neuropsychologist) immediately casting doubt on Benjamin’s veracity.
  • Quote: “She is here to say that, like, never happened.” – Patrick, (00:16)
• The premise of the TV doc is set up as cinematic, starting with threats against filmmakers Shannon and Eric Evangelista—a sign the story’s already veering into dramatic territory.
  • "What a way to start a documentary. Right? Stakes could not be higher." – Patrick, (02:56)

2. The Discovery of ‘BK Doe’: The Burger King Amnesiac

• 2004: A man, naked, covered in blood (so the story goes), is found behind a Georgia Burger King. With no ID or memory, he dubs himself “Benjamin Kyle.”
  • The name is an invented answer to hospital staff pestering him.
  • Quote: “He just, like, makes up a name to shut everybody up.” – Patrick, (04:49)
• Early details (911 call, trauma) unravel as fabrications when revisited later in the episode.

3. Documentaries and the Building Mythos

• A student filmmaker, John Wickstrom (FSU, 2011), makes a short doc, Finding Benjamin, which becomes influential and (crucially) fakes key evidence like the 911 call.
  • The hosts lampoon this: “He faked it for the doc.” – Patrick, (29:57)
• The momentum builds around Benjamin as a “mystery man” narrative, with multiple individuals (nurses, friends, amateur sleuths) drawn in wanting to ‘solve’ him.

4. The Social Spiral and Trail of Deception

• Benjamin’s lack of ID leaves him unable to access basic services—yet others are able to help him get at least a local ID and job for a while, undermining the “total mystery” claim the main doc tries to sell.
• Ben’s personality: socially adept, knowledgeable about pop culture and history (“renaissance man”), but curiously blank about his own life—leading to mounting suspicion from both hosts and professional experts.
  • “For a guy who has amnesia, he's got facts and figures about everything except himself.” – Patrick, (11:51)

5. Expert Analysis: Is This Even Medically Possible?

• Dr. Kim Gorgon: Only ~100 cases of "blank slate" amnesia exist in all medical literature. Ben’s presentation and demeanor aren't typical; he appears bemused, not traumatized.
  • “His words are not matching his actions or demeanor.” – Patrick, (13:40)

6. Memory Lane: The ‘23 Memories’ and Red Flags

• Ben claims exactly 23 memories, all about famous, Googleable events and landmarks (Red Rocks, Casa Bonita, famous flood).
  • All memories are devoid of personal detail—never names, only big events.
  • Hosts: “Not a single person, not a single actual memory. Who did you go to the concert with? No idea.” – Gillian, (22:41)
• When pressed, Ben hedges, gets defensive, quickly says ‘no’ to elaborating, and even becomes combative.
  • “Benjamin starts throwing a tantrum: I’m being ambushed!” – Patrick, (27:06)

7. Suspicion Mounts: Violent References and Anti-Social Behavior

• Ben casually references axe murders, hiding bodies, and later demonstrates high-level computer skills to spy on his supporters.
  • "That's the third red flag about murder." – Patrick, (27:28)
• The hosts notice a pattern: Ben cycles through caretakers/friends, each leaving after discovering unsettling or deceptive behavior (spying, online harassment, burning belongings before leaving).

8. The Collapse of the Case Mythology

• The infamous, emotional 911 call about a bloody, battered man? 100% fake—staged for the documentary by an actress, with Ben’s approval.
• The ‘assault’ story never actually happened. The local police, nurses, and Burger King staff all confirm he was just found naked but unharmed.
  • "Everything in the original documentary from 2011... is based on a lie." – Patrick, (35:42)

9. The Technology Trail: Benjamin, the Hacker

• Ben uses the Tor browser (for accessing the dark web), anti-forensic tools, and sophisticated email ruses to hide digital footprints.
• He plants evidence, manipulates web sleuth forums, and is obsessed with serial murder cases from the 1970s-80s—particularly near where he claims to have vague memories.
  • “What kind of amnesia is the kind that makes you a computer genius and a hacker?” – Gillian, (46:43)

10. Unmasking: The True Identity—But New Mysteries Appear

• Genetic genealogists (CeCe Moore et al.) finally identify Ben as William Burgess Powell (2015), an Indiana man missing since 1976.
  • Hosts are exasperated that straightforward DNA/ancestry work, not endless road-trip memory sessions, solves the case.
  • “We were never going to figure out who he was by taking him to Red Rocks.” – Patrick, (55:03)
• Missing person report data is slowly revealed:
  • Ben left Indiana under suspicion (“linked to people engaged in criminal activity”), possibly involving stolen cars and robbery.
  • When tracked down, his family (notably, his brother Robert) still wants nothing to do with him—a major unresolved emotional thread.

11. The Final Unraveling: Fraud, Lies, and ‘Hot Mic’ Moments

• Ben’s caught in a massive lie: He signed up for Medicare in April 2015 under his real name, months before genealogists ‘discovered’ him—proving he always knew his identity.
  • “He knew it. He’s known it the whole time.” – Patrick, (66:30)
• FBI Ken is exasperated by Ben’s ever-changing, racist, and evasive explanations.
  • Ben: “How do the Mexicans get away with it?” – (68:07)
  • Ken: “They get arrested and go to jail for fraud.” – (68:31)
• The episode ends with a heavily staged “hot mic” reunion with Ben’s brother Furman, who reflects cryptically on Ben needing a “healing ceremony” before dying, implying deep familial rifts and possible guilt or violence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ben’s endless denials and defensiveness:
  • “I’ve always said I was never an axe murderer, and we’ve certainly proven that… the FBI can’t figure it out.” — Ben, criticized by the hosts for repeatedly mentioning murder unprompted (23:37)
• On Staged Reality:
  • “They are staging a phone call to scream and shout about a staged phone call.” – Patrick, (30:12)
• Dr. Kim’s Clinical Reality Check:
  • “Benjamin’s assertion that his memory loss is a product of childhood trauma decades later doesn’t necessarily add up.” – Dr. Kim, (72:28)
• On the structure and ethics of these docs:
  • “Zero authenticity from them. From Benjamin Kyle.” – Gillian, (36:21)
  • “This documentary is based on a documentary. That was a lie.” – Patrick, (64:43)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:56 – Introduction of the case: “a man with amnesia found behind a dumpster.”
• 02:22 – Filmmaker threats, introduction of doc-makers Eric & Shannon.
• 04:15–05:21 – The “BK Doe” name story; initial hospital experience.
• 08:04 – The FSU student documentary, Finding Benjamin.
• 13:02 – Dr. Kim Gorgon on medical reality of amnesia.
• 22:01 – The “exactly 23” memories and their sketchiness.
• 27:06 – Ben’s tantrum when pressed about his memories.
• 28:02 – Shocking reveal: First responder says Ben had no injuries.
• 29:57 – The 911 call is 100% faked.
• 35:42 – Hosts expose the central mythology as based on fabrications.
• 44:47 – Discovery of Tor browser, digital traces.
• 47:20 – High-level anti-forensic activity and obsession with cold cases.
• 52:21 – Genetic genealogists reveal Ben’s true identity.
• 65:21 – Medicare application bombshell reveals Ben’s prior knowledge of real name.
• 66:48 – Hosts exclaim at the luck Ben/William has with these “dingbat” filmmakers.
• 73:40 – “Hot mic” moment and cryptic family revelations.

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Tone and Style

The hosts maintain a fast-paced, irreverent, and suspicious tone—mocking both the subject and, at points, the filmmakers and true crime genre itself. They balance snarky asides, pop culture riffs (Blair Witch Project, The Jinx, and even Breaking Bad get name-checked), and genuine concern for the ethical holes in both the documentaries and Ben’s supporters. Their rapport is playful but biting, especially when discussing obvious documentary manipulations or Ben’s poorly concealed trail of suspicious behaviors.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

This episode skewers the story of “Benjamin Kyle,” the supposed amnesiac found behind a Burger King, revealing how documentary hocus-pocus and a performative true crime industry propped up a case that—when examined closely—was full of holes, fake evidence, and dubious personalities. The hosts ultimately see it as an illustration of how a compelling narrative can outpace fact (and ethics), and how some true crime docs are more about spectacle than substance. Yet, for all the drama, it’s the basics—a DNA test, a look at actual records—that finally unmask an artful manipulator.

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If you found the podcast episode wild, frustrating, and kind of hilarious, this summary should catch you up—and maybe save you four hours of your life.

Transcript

[A]

Less than 1% of the time, they call it a blank slate. Like, do you, like, Walter White your way into a supermarket and, like, you have no memory of the fugue?

[B]

Right, Which Walter White was faking, by the way.

[A]

Totally faking. But, like, she says that almost never happened. So, like, I can't imagine that, like, Benjamin is, like, the one in a billion.

[B]

Right. Like, to be clear, what Benjamin is claiming he has, she is here to say that, like, never happened.

[A]

It doesn't happen. Hi, Julian Bezavale.

[B]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[A]

What are we talking about today?

[B]

The Blair Witch Project of true crime, also known as the Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle. So this is four episodes on hbo, Max and Discovery. We're doing it in two episodes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're covering, like, episode one and two in this ep and then episodes three and four. Our coverage of that is available for you right now on the Patreon.

[A]

Yeah, right now. Add for you on the Patreon and then that will be our regular episode next week.

[B]

Eleven years ago, I came across this insane story. It was about a man that had amnesia.

[A]

I was found behind a dumpster. I don't know how I got there, and I don't have memories of who I am.

[B]

Initially, we really wanted to help Benjamin Kyle, but the more that we learned about him, the more that he started to get angry. All it did was raise more questions. Who the hell was 30 years?

[A]

I know you want to start with this on screen text girl.

[B]

Well, so episode one is called Nowhere man, and it says, After 10 years of documenting the search for Benjamin Kyle's true identity, the filmmakers received a phone call that changed everything. New York City, 2020. We hear the voicemail, like, at the tone, please record your message.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This voicemail is essentially a threat.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Is how it's sending to us at this moment threatening.

[A]

One of, like, the two filmmakers are married. It's Eric and Shannon. They're married. They've got two kids. And this person is Bas. You need to stop what you're doing. Those are some really cute kids. It'd be a shame if something bad happened to them. Yeah.

[B]

And, like, then we cut to these two filmmakers, Shannon and Eric Evangelista. And they're talking to Donald from the FBI, who's also a private eye. And Shannon is, like, hysterical. She's like, this is terrifying. Like, how does she know I have twins? My socials are private. If I could go back, I would never do this, like, ever. And they're, like, hysterical.

[A]

I will say, like, a long time ago, when we Covered that documentary, welcome to Leith, about the Nazis.

[B]

And they put our names and photos on a website, including my daughter.

[A]

They put Daisy's picture on a Nazi website.

[B]

Oh, we were full on docs.

[A]

Full on. I mean, it is pretty scary to get docs by Nazis.

[B]

Well, that was the first time. Yeah. And I was like, come to New York.

[A]

It's less scary. And when it happens subsequently, I was

[B]

like, come to New York and find us, you dumb bitches. Welcome to New York, Nazis. It's not gonna go well for you,

[A]

but it does feel. I get that sense, that powerlessness of, like, my kids pick. You know what I mean? Like, it's Shannon. I hear you. Like, that sucks.

[B]

And like, what a way to start a documentary. Right? Stakes could not be higher. And let me just.

[A]

I was saying this before we. I saw. I watched this before I knew we were going to do it, because I saw this all over TikTok. This is one one of those documentaries that, like, has been chopped up into little pieces and has been posted all over the Internet.

[B]

So, okay, Shannon tells us. Eleven years ago, she came across this, quote, completely insane story about a guy who had amnesia. And she's obsessed. She dives into the story 100% and she wants to find out everything about it. Then we get like a 10 minute long. Coming up on yes, yes.

[A]

But the story officially starts. It's Richmond Hills, Georgia, August 2004. We hear this. 9, 1 1, call Red Burger King. We're out of Burger King.

[B]

Very important note.

[A]

Starving.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think he passed out. But he could be dead. I really don't know. Where are you?

[B]

Covered in blood.

[A]

He's naked. It looks like somebody tried to kill him. I don't know. Calm down, ma'.

[B]

Am.

[A]

We'll send an ambulance. Oh, my God.

[B]

Oh, my God. He's naked and unconscious. Naked behind the dumpster at the Burger King.

[A]

Insulting. Why you gotta strip the guy?

[B]

I don't know. We'll get. We'll see. We won't. We may or may not get to

[A]

the bottom of it. If this ever happens to me. Can you just leave my clothes on?

[B]

I know you.

[A]

So we meet Sue. Sue was the first responder. She's the first on the scene. She says the man was totally nude. No wallet, no id. Like, who is this guy? How did he get here?

[B]

The doctors call him BK Doe. Like Burger King Doe, because they already had another John Doe. And I'm like, oh, woof. Like, rough day at the hospital?

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

I know. It, like, made me feel really bad.

[A]

B.K. doe.

[B]

K. Doe. Because they didn't have a. You know, they're John Doe. So we start hearing from the guy, and he's like, well, for some reason, he tells the doctors that his name is Benjamin. And instead of the usual spelling of in at the edge of Benjamin, it's like, benjamin M A N. Yes. And so to shut them up, he tells everyone that his last name is Kyle. Because BK Doe, Burger King, Benjamin, Kyle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he just, like, makes up a name to shut everybody up. And then, amazingly, he has cataracts, so they gave him free cataract surgery.

[A]

We never come back to this. But, like, Benjamin had cataracts. They clear that up, right?

[B]

And I'm like, I was that just to, like, please, like, hospital workers. Can you sound off? Did they do that just to be nice? I don't know if that's considered, like, emergency surgery or. They're like, shit, this guy's really having a hell of a day. Maybe we'll do the nice thing. Which would be, like, great. Yeah. But I'm not sure if this guy doesn't know who he is and has no ID and certainly no insurance to pay for anything.

[A]

No.

[B]

Just like, handing out cataract surgery.

[A]

What a nice thing we should be.

[B]

I understand. I'm just wondering, like, I know that the health care system is fucked.

[A]

Yeah, I guess you're right.

[B]

Like, what kind of an emergency is this? I just wonder, like, that's true. Health care workers, how often have you given out free cataract surgery?

[A]

Just, like, freak out.

[B]

I'd like to know.

[A]

Oh, my God. So they. The FBI runs his fingerprints. They came down and said, oh, yeah, yeah. You weren't in our files. You weren't on the most wanted list.

[B]

So.

[A]

No, I'm not the type of person to be an ax murderer. He can't possibly be an axe murderer unprompted. That's like the first of 800 times. He's like, well, I didn't kill anyone because nobody found my fingerprints anywhere.

[B]

Well, guess what? Now I think you are. Do you see how quickly that happens, Ben?

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Before we get back to the episode, just a reminder, if you're not watching us on YouTube, especially this episode, you're gonna wanna get the to the YouTube join over 525,000 other subscribers to watch the shenanigans live.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

You can also join us on the Patreon, but only if you want bonus

[B]

content, Drag bingo and free versions of these episodes. And then all the series, like Trust Me, the False Prophet and all that stuff.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Multi epps.

[A]

Over 500 episodes of all that stuff.

[B]

Wait, YouTube.

[A]

Oh, exactly. Patreon.com obsessed or you can just go to the show notes and click on the links.

[B]

So John Wickstrom, he is a Student Filmmaker. It's 2011. He's at FSU Film School and for class he has to make a documentary. He makes it sound like his hands are tied. There's a gun to his head. They are forcing him to make a documentary. He's in film school.

[A]

Film school.

[B]

He's like, I have to make a documentary, John.

[A]

Like, please. But he says he comes across Benjamin's story, he thought he was a good subject and like, like everybody else we're about to meet, this guy thinks he's gonna be the one to solve the mystery by making the documentary.

[B]

So the documentary is called Finding Benjamin. It's nine minutes. You can. It's online. You can watch it for Free. I did.

[A]

Apparently it got, like, pretty famous. Like, apparently people, like, really cared about this.

[B]

It was screened at Tribeca Film Festival.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, there's B roll of him. Because it's nine minutes. Yeah, So I watched it today. There's B roll of this guy eating French fries inside the Burger King.

[A]

Listen, this guy goes on a rant about fre fries at least four times in. This guy loves his French fries.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I mean, and who doesn't?

[B]

Yeah. Like, French fries are great.

[A]

There are many things to hate this guy for. This is not one of them.

[B]

Yeah, like, okay, we all like hot take guy. You like French fries.

[A]

Yeah. But, like, the thing is, this guy John, the filmmaker, and this guy Ben Benjamin become, like, super close. Benjamin's like a guest of honor at this guy John's wedding.

[B]

I'm like a. Can't you just be an invited guest, a guest of honor? So now your wedding is all about him. I'd love to speak to the bride if you're still married, but, like. Cause the big story is, like.

[A]

Sabrina, can we have a word?

[B]

Oh, the guest. This, like, weird guy is just a guest of honor at the wedding. I'm like this. Are you two in cahoots? I don't get it.

[A]

It's weird because, like, John, everybody starts crying when they talk about this guy. Like, everyone feels really bad for him.

[B]

Well, because the story is, like, Benjamin doesn't know who he is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he doesn't have id. And he doesn't know his or have a Social Security number.

[A]

Without a Social Security number, you can't get a job. You cannot get a bank account, you cannot get a lease. You can't do anything. Where are you living now? In a field behind the police department. Because none of the homeless shelters will take me in because they don't have any id.

[B]

It's very hard to exist under these circumstances. Right? Like, you can't get a job, you can't get a place to live. Like, you need an ID to do all those things, but you can't have an ID unless you get those things. It's very difficult.

[A]

But, like, I gotta think that this is not the first time in history this has happened. There's gotta be a protocol. And this guy Benjamin doesn't seem interested in that.

[B]

And what they don't tell us in this documentary. Documentary? The Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle. I don't know why it's not called the Many Lives of Benjamin Kyle, but whatever. I'm probably going to call it that 100 times.

[A]

You need to just start making documentaries.

[B]

Like the Tortured Poet Society. It's just going to be that thing. I'm going to say it a million times. However, in the nine minute documentary, he gets an ID and a job.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Everyone's like, I feel so bad for this guy. And like, local government officials are like, we need to get him an id

[A]

because they make it sound like this guy doesn't work for 10 years.

[B]

No, he at least got a restaurant gig. Because people around town, like, are hearing this on the news and they're like, oh, my God, he was found bloody and beaten.

[A]

I mean, of course, of course.

[B]

And you, like, he can't, you know, society is such that we can't, you know, like, oh, my God, we're going to help this guy. So in the documentary, he gets an ID and he gets a job. Not a Social Security number. They're like, quote, still working on that. Okay, but in 2011, he had those things.

[A]

But that's weird because he's found in 2004. So, like, what did he do for all of those years?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I know. And nobody tells us. You don't know. We don't know. The filmmakers don't know. Everybody is also telling us, he's smart as a fox. He can fix anything. He knows histories, movies.

[B]

We got to stop with that.

[A]

He's like a full Renaissance man. This.

[B]

We meet this guy Josh, who's, quote, emotionally attached to Benjamin. He then sniffles and wipes away an invisible tear. Go back.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Screenshot it. Pause it. Dry as a bone.

[A]

There is a moment with Josh in, like, episode three that I had to watch twice because I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

I don't really understand what's going on with Josh. For a guy who has amnesia, he's got facts and figures about everything except himself.

[A]

But that's the thing. And he's got very specific timeframes of memories, like. Right, so we'll get back to that. First, we meet Dr. Kim Gorgon. She's a forensic neuropsychologist, the only voice

[B]

of reason in this whole thing.

[A]

The only.

[B]

She's.

[A]

She's not convinced. She's a little sus of this whole thing.

[B]

She's been studying head trauma and amnesia for 30 freaking years. Yeah, she loves her job, she loves talking about it. And the weirder the case, the better. And she specifically loves. She gets a kick out of all, like, the old movies that get amnesia. Totally wrong. In Benjamin's case, the experience of being wiped clean is so rare. The Odds of finding a patient like

[A]

Benjamin, it's mind blowing. Benjamin is in the. Less than 1%.

[B]

There's only been just over 100 cases in recorded medical history.

[A]

Less than 1% of the time. They call it a blank slate. Like, do you like Walter White your way into a supermarket and like, you have no memory? The fugue. Right.

[B]

Which Walter White was faking, by the way.

[A]

Totally faking. But like she says, that almost never happens. So, like, I can't imagine that, like, Benjamin is like the one in a billion.

[B]

Right. Like, to be clear, what Benjamin is claiming he has, she is here to say that, like, never happened.

[A]

It doesn't happen.

[B]

So she also says that she. Her experience with people who have had some kind of amnesia. Not amnesia for 30 years, but like, you know, after a car accident or whatever. It includes a lot of suffering.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because you. It's lonely, it's terrifying. You're confused. You don't know who or what to believe. Like, it must be a very scary, lonely experience. And not for Benny.

[A]

No.

[B]

I mean, right on time.

[A]

Ben is describing, like, looking in the mirror and not recognizing, like, if that were. If this were real, if this were really happening. I cannot imagine what it would be like to look in the mirror and see a total stranger. That. That must be terrifying.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And Dr. Kim, she's saying there's been less than 100 documented cases of this in human history.

[B]

And like, all medical documented history.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, you know, he says the word nightmare. He's saying all the right words, but his, his words are not matching his actions or demeanor.

[A]

No.

[B]

At all.

[A]

He does not seem traumatized. He seems amused and bemused.

[B]

And he's asked about it by this documentary. We're at the site of the Burger King. That's gone now. All but the tile floor.

[A]

It's just a footprint.

[B]

He says it's a tile floor in the middle of a parking lot.

[A]

I know.

[B]

With like weeds growing around it. I'm like, what, you couldn't get the tile floor also? So we could actually use the space for something also.

[A]

What kind of town has no need for a Burger King? What kind of town is that?

[B]

Maybe they got a bigger and better one. Or maybe they just got a fucking McDonald's. Like a real society.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

That makes sense with the best coke ever.

[A]

But they're just like. He's like, what do I think happened? He's like, I suppose I could have been sleeping in the woods back here. There's all kinds of remains of homeless camps. I don't know. I mean, you know, hell, it's possible that aliens dropped me off. Maybe aliens dropped me off. Ben, not now. We're not. We're not. We're not quite there for this.

[B]

It could really go either way. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Catherine Slater's here. She met Benjamin in 2007, which is three years after he was found in the dumpster at Burger King. Yes, three years. So she finds his story incredibly sad. And she's like, if you have a soul at all, you'd be crying because

[A]

she's a nurse at the facility that took him in. So she like for him as her

[B]

job, but for three years. So he was in a facility for three years? I guess.

[A]

Well, all I know is that she says that when he moves out of the facility, he doesn't have a place to go, so he moves into her house.

[B]

For four years.

[A]

For four years. And then she says, I wanted to be the one to solve it. This is what I'm saying. Everybody wants to be the one to solve it, Katherine.

[B]

And guess who comes to swoop in?

[A]

Phil. Phil.

[B]

I got to tell you, Phil is everywhere now. Once we did that documentary, it was like opening Pandora's box. He is seemingly in every documentary we cover now.

[A]

Get such a kick out of writing the Phil Show. I get it. Like, Phil. Phil fam. In case you haven't heard our episode on the quote, Dr. Phil show, he let his. He let his license slap. He's not a doctor. He wasn't a doctor for, like, two thirds of the time he did that show. He's just Phil.

[B]

He was just using that name to, like, get people to trust him. And then he was scamming him.

[A]

Phil's here. And so wait, now we meet Harold. Harold Copas. He's a FBI special agent. He did that for nine years. The artistic shot of him at this bar, at this diner, he's like, mmm, this is a damn fine cup of coffee. And then we see him, Daisy Tipton, heinzing syrup onto his pancakes.

[B]

Just means a lot.

[A]

An hour of syrup on the pancakes.

[B]

I thought his timeline was interesting because he was a special agent for the FBI for almost nine years and then worked on the Phil show for almost 10. And I'm like, what happened there? I wonder.

[A]

This guy is like, you're working with

[B]

Phil longer than you were the FBI.

[A]

I wonder if, like, Phil pays more. You know what I mean? Or, like, maybe he got kicked out of the FBI. We don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I just thought it was kind of weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, Harold's job is to try to find Benjamin's real name, identity, and family.

[A]

We learn that Benjamin has memories of Indianapolis and Colorado. Now this guy. What's his name?

[B]

Harold.

[A]

Harold tells us, I traveled around the United States trying to find his identity. I'm knocking on doors, looked through yearbooks, could not find a photograph of this guy. And I've done about everything you can do. I run your fingerprints, I got your DNA. I've gone to Indianapolis. I didn't go to Colorado. Never made it to Colorado? No. He says he went all over the country except for one of the two places that Benjamin has concrete mentioned. What? He's like, well, at some point, you run out of money. I'm like, well, maybe don't go to Boston.

[B]

Well, because Phil was like, girl, we're spending a lot of money. Like, we need answers. Because he was coming up with nothing. He was going door to door.

[A]

Just like you didn't go to one of the two places this guy told you he has concrete memories being at. Maybe that's why he didn't last very long at the FBI.

[B]

I think Harold's on my side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't believe this for a second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think he's like, why am I going to go there?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Nothing's going to come of it.

[A]

Further record. I don't believe it. I don't believe this part of it either. I don't believe the amnesia for a second. But when we get deeper into this, Okay, I have questions.

[B]

I have many. So they do, like an age regression to get an image of what he might have looked like, like, 20 or 30 years ago. The Phil episode airs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crickets. Not a single phone call, not an email, not a lead. Nothing.

[A]

That is crazy.

[B]

And everyone's flabbergasted.

[A]

Like, my me.

[B]

Me included, millions of viewers. Nobody is like, oh, my God, that's my brother. Oh, my God, that's my co worker. Oh, my God.

[A]

Like, nobody saw that guy once like this. We learned, like, the last time he was ever seen was like, 1976.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then in 2009, he. Well, right. But it's like, we're going to meet people that he was like, with during the time that he was missing. None of them saw the Phil show.

[B]

It doesn't make any sense.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

So now we are in 2014, and Shannon, who's one of the filmmakers, is watching one of those old movies about amnesia that Dr. Kim makes fun of because it's not real. And Shannon is like, oh, my God. So she Googles amnesia or amnesiac or whatever. Benjamin Kyle comes up. So now it's been 11 years since Ben Kyle has been found at the Burger King.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And no progress has been made. So Shannon is like, I'm gonna solve it now. She's the one in 2014. So Shannon says she owns Hot Snakes Media.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What she doesn't mention is that they did all the Natalia Grace stuff. They did the Curious Case of Natalia Grace, Natalia Speaks, all three seasons of Natalia Grace. They did. And, like, they don't mention that, but believe me, you will feel it. And then also before that, before I became a television producer, I was a deputy district attorney. Then I went to the Manhattan DA's office, where I was an assistant district attorney. After that, I went into private practice. I did civil litigation, and then I became a television producer. Shannon was a deputy district attorney.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then went into private practice and then became a television producer. I don't understand the decisions this person makes, but that's the same thing.

[A]

Like, I mean, I guess maybe you want to get out of, like, being an attorney or whatever, and you go into tv, but, like, that seems like a major career shift.

[B]

She was an attorney. She should know better about a great many things that she does. Like, her actions don't make sense to me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So we meet Ken.

[A]

Now, once again, we get the slowed down, zoomed in shot of this guy, like, pulling up in an suv, Matt Murphy style sunglasses, getting out, being sexy.

[B]

So Ken gets the badass edit. Right. But Shannon includes herself and her husband.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Like, we get the close up of their feet and the slow motion walk. And I'm like, who does that?

[A]

The thing is, they did it of themselves.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

They have to set the shot and be like, all right now, Eric, walk into it slowly.

[B]

And I'm like, what filmmaker does that for themselves?

[A]

Hey, you know what? If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? Can I get an amen to a point?

[B]

It, like, so, like, Ken can't get the. All the. Because he's like, a superstar FBI guy. No, no, no, no. Shannon's got to be involved.

[A]

Totally. I just love these people who agree to do those shots. Sure. I'll pull in the suv, like, make it so I'll get out the. The shot from underneath with the sunglasses. It is so wild.

[B]

And if you're showing up for the stock, I guess you're like, I would be like, guys, whatever you want. Like, I'M here, like, for your thing, but Shannon's like, no, no, no. Everyone, we're starting again because now it's my badass shot. Who does that

[A]

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[A]

Yes. So we learn that Benjamin has exactly 23 memories of his past. Can we get Dr. Kim in here to tell us if that's how amnesia works?

[B]

Have that in my notes. Like Paige and Dr. Kim. Right or wrong.

[A]

That's crazy. Is exactly 23.

[B]

So. And Benjamin is like, everything from the mid-80s to Burger King is a blank. But we. They number the memories and then tell us them out of order.

[A]

I stopped taking notes on the numbers because I couldn't keep track because they're out of order.

[B]

And I want to slow down on what these are. Forget memory number one. Top of the Rockies restaurant. They had an outside elevator.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Memory number 22. Seeing blood, sweat and tears at Red Rock in 1978. Memory 17. I'm like, why are we going out of order? The big canyon flood of 76. And basically all of these memories are either famous landmarks or something that is Googleable or like a famous event.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not a single person, not a single actual memory. Who did you go to the concert with? No idea.

[A]

But that's really important. And the filmmakers Start to screaming about this because they're driving all the fuck over Colorado being like, I remember Red Rocks. Well, who did you go to that? Benjamin himself is like, I had to have gotten here with somebody because I didn't drive and they didn't have public transportation. Who'd you go with? I don't know.

[B]

He's not even excited to be there because it's 2014. And they're like, benjamin, are you excited to go to Colorado? He's basically like, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, he can take it or leave it, and. But what he is doing is hedging.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Before they even get to Colorado, he's like, I will say my memories are scattered, and I don't know how much I'm going to remember. So, like, don't get your hopes up, guys.

[A]

And like. But every time they press him on, like, you can't remember a single person from this. This very specific period. You remember everybody in your life before 1976.

[B]

And this is the second time he says, well, I'm not an axe murderer.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And I'm like, well, now you definitely are.

[A]

I mean, you have to be an ax murderer.

[B]

The first time, unprompted, I was like, now. The second time, unprompted, I really think you're an ax murderer. Because then he adds onto it this time.

[A]

I mean, I've always said I was never an axe murderer, and we've certainly proven that. Leastways, the FBI can't figure it out.

[B]

At least, you know, the FBI can't prove it because they have my fingerprints and stuff. And I'm like, sorry, what? Yeah, I just want to go through this quickly. We're at the University of Colorado, Boulder campus, and he's like, this is memory number 13, apparently. I don't know what the numbers, they don't make any sense. He's like, I didn't go there, but I went to the library. And I'm like, so you're just, like, milling around on campus.

[A]

But then. But then he gets there, and he's like, but this isn't the library how I remember it. It's like, what are we doing?

[B]

Like, you're losing me, guys. We got to keep it moving. We got to keep it moving.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

And then Back to memory 22, seeing blood, sweat and tears at Red Rocks in 78. Let me tell you, Red Rocks is one of the most famous venues on the planet. And then he's like, well, blood, Sweat and Tears. I know. They played When I Die, and they perform with the Denver Symphony Orchestra. First of all. No, they didn't. That's not online on the Internet at all.

[A]

Because he says, we know that it was that date because it's the only time it ever happens. So it never happened.

[B]

No. If anything, it was like in 1970, not 76, but also, like, who cares? It was the 70s. Anyone would conflate right things and they never press him on it. And like, everyone is saying this is such a big deal. It's really not.

[A]

Doesn't matter. Because it doesn't get us closer to figuring out who he is.

[B]

And also the song he name drops when I die. I googled it. It's like on all their greatest hits record.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Records. It's like saying I saw Billy Joel and he played Piano Man.

[A]

The funny thing, now that I'm really thinking about it, like, the only way you're going to figure out who this guy is is do a DNA test and get on 23. I mean, what are we doing?

[B]

Going to take too long to get there.

[A]

I get. Yeah.

[B]

But you know what else he remembers? Members.

[A]

What?

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, that's a taco place, that Casa Bonita.

[B]

You know about Casa Bonita? No. Casa Bonita is a very, very, very famous, well known place in Colorado. It is like a Mexican restaurant that's also like a theme park. A theme restaurant. They have characters. They have waterfalls with cliff divers.

[A]

Like, they have black markets.

[B]

So this is like renowned, legendary, iconic. It was all of those things before south park did a very famous. Like, one of their best episodes is when they go to Casa Bonita and they recreate it. And then fact. Matt and Trey bought Casa Bonita.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Made a documentary about how it's a money pit and they spent like $40 million renovating it.

[A]

No way.

[B]

But again, Casa Bonita is like a major landmark in Colorado. It's not a memory. It's like you're like, oh, there's like, everybody knows Casa Bonita.

[A]

This is crazy.

[B]

It's. It's very fake. And also, it's not an actual memory.

[A]

Then all of a sudden, we're like walking across. He literally walks into traffic because he remembers a Jewish cemetery. Walks into traffic.

[B]

They're like. Like the. The filmmakers are like, come on, man. Frustrated with him. And we don't hear Benjamin's response to anything that they're pressing him. Because we jump from day five to 12. As he walks into oncoming traffic, Someone goes, get out of the street.

[A]

It's on the captions, like, it's why it's absolutely wild.

[B]

No one on the production team is acknowledging that this is happening.

[A]

I know.

[B]

No urgency, no sense of, like, this guy's going to be killed before we get to the bottom of it.

[A]

But it's also like, what's the point? What does any of this matter?

[B]

It doesn't matter.

[A]

How is this going to get us close to figuring out who he is?

[B]

Especially because when Alex, Alex the producer pushes him again and he's like, me,

[A]

we ask you to remember people, their names, whatever, you automatically just say no. You quickly just say no and shut that idea down. You're not even taking a moment to think about it.

[B]

What?

[A]

Not even no, you're wrong. You lied to me when you said we're just driving around. Why in that didn't you tell me? Don't surprise me on this.

[B]

Benjamin starts throwing a tantrum. I'm being ambushed. You lied to me. And I'm like, you guys, this is when you pack it up and go home.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is pointless. This guy's a dick.

[A]

Forget it. Forget it.

[B]

We get to think we have three more episodes.

[A]

We got three more apps. We get to day 17. They are on some mountain road in Colorado, wandering aimlessly. Well, he pulls over and he says, if anybody wanted to get rid of a body, this would be a pretty good place to shove one off. It would be years before they found it.

[B]

That's the third red flag about murder.

[A]

I mean, we're 15 minutes into this.

[B]

Yeah. He just. And then he kicks some rocks down the steep hill, like, see?

[A]

And like, producer cuts to Alex, the producer. He's just speechless.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, this guy's weird and morbid. And I'm like, uh huh.

[A]

Yeah, pack it up. Then we're like, Alex is getting phone calls in his hotel room because Benjamin is trying to get a key to his room to try to get into his room. Like, this guy is scary and dangerous.

[B]

Right? And then like, they can't trust Benjamin, so now they want to go back to the people who found him at the dumpsters back at the Burger King. I'm like, that's where you should have started.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I feel like I'm insane. Like birdcage. Like, I feel like I'm fudgeing crazy.

[A]

This is where the story takes its first big twist, because the first responder is here to tell us, like, wait, he was not bloody and beaten. He was naked, but there was not a scratch on him.

[B]

And guess what? In the report, no trauma noted.

[A]

If you remember the 911 call, you hear this woman screaming like, oh, my God. There's a man, he's bloody and beaten and battered and naked. None of that was true. The naked part, yes. But he was in like perfect health.

[B]

And we meet Thomas and his wife. Son. Yo. Thomas is the general manager of the Burger King at the time. And his wife is the person who actually found Benjamin behind the dumpster. So they are listening to this 911 call and they were like, who called?

[A]

Because the one who called Tom called and got the dispatcher right away. Like, if anybody, if there would have been a recorded call of the 911 call, it would have been Tom.

[B]

And everything in the 911 call that they have is not true, Right? So they're like, okay. So then this documentary plays the clip from the nine minute documentary with the kid who didn't feel like making a documentary. And it's the woman, oh, my God, I found Benjamin. He's beaten and bloody. And so then we meet Tracy Davis, who's an actress.

[A]

I'm kind of obsessed with Tracy Davis.

[B]

I love her.

[A]

She's like, I was a student at FSU for social work, but I always wanted to be an actress. I always wanted to be on TV in front of the camera all the time, anytime.

[B]

And so she auditioned.

[A]

I heard about an audition through FSU film school. This role being a frantic caller that I called 911 and they had about maybe 40 different people that was reading for that role. When I did the casting call, I did it with John Wickstrom and Benjamin Kyle. There was some stiff competition, but after I read for the line several times, they picked me because I'm the best.

[B]

They picked me because I'm the best. Tracee, keep that energy.

[A]

I mean, oh my God.

[B]

But like everyone, in case we're talking a mile a minute, which we are, this 911 call was fake and staged. They auditioned Benjamin. Kyle was like, I want her to play the Voice of the 900 call. And here's what you should tell her to say. And the documentary filmmaker, this kid is like, cool, let's do it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He faked it for the doc.

[A]

But then my favorite part about this, we were talking about this before we started. Eric and Shannon, the filmmakers of this documentary, are on a call screaming about how mad they are that the 911 call was faked. The call that they are having is fully scripted.

[B]

Fake.

[A]

It's the fakest fucking fuck. They are staging a phone call to scream and shout about a staged phone call.

[B]

This is again, pack it up.

[A]

Yes to 100%.

[B]

So he's not Giving you anything. He's in cahoots with the filmmaker. The 911 call is a lie. You have confirmation it never happened from the people who actually called. Pack it in. We're done.

[A]

Because especially Shannon makes the good point here. She's like, if nobody beat him up, if he had no head trauma, where did the amnesia come from?

[B]

It's fake. We're done.

[A]

No problem. We got three more episodes.

[B]

That's how episode one ends. Episode two, meet William Powell.

[A]

Look, you really did it to her this time, fam.

[B]

I'm just happy to have fun this week.

[A]

I know.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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It's so nice to have that thing to get into at the end of the day that you just know it's gonna be. It feels like your sanctuary. It feels so comfortable. Truly.

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[B]

So the current documentary crew wants to get the truth, but they're gonna let this guy think they actually believe him and like play along and act dumb so that he'll get come clean?

[A]

Yes, that's the idea. We now know that they're like, we now know that Benjamin is lying, but in order to get to the bottom of who he is, we have to make him believe that we believe him. But first they want to get to the bottom of this. Fudgeing. 911 call.

[B]

And the documentary filmmaker of the nine minute doc who lied. Like, what else is a lie in the stock then?

[A]

So they get John here and John literally, like, you can see that there's like, you could cut the tension in this moment with a knife because Shannon knows she's got to ask him. He knows he's about to be asked about it.

[B]

Tweedledee and Tweedledum, these two talking to

[A]

each other, he's like, benjamin didn't tell me that he was not beaten. I read a lot of the articles that said that's how he woke up. And at that point, being a student who was late on assignment, I took that and went with it. And Benjamin never corrected me on that. And Benjamin never corrected me.

[B]

Dude. Really?

[A]

No. Look, in his defense, he is a student filmmaker.

[B]

Then don't submit it to Tribeca if

[A]

you know it's a fucking. I know, I know. But, like, I wonder though, if in John's defense, he thought, having read about it in the paper or whatever, like, he did his due diligence.

[B]

But the thing about this documentary is that the 911 call that is like, being played like the novel one call was like, ended up being played on, like, the news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so most of the nine minutes of this documentary is how this story exploded and the community came to help him.

[A]

And that's the thing about this, is that, like, if you are researching something like this for a documentary and you want to use the 911 call, you either the real one, or you find a transcript of it and you recreate

[B]

it, tell us that it's exactly.

[A]

You absolutely do not, like, read, like, the headline from the Herald and be like, I'm just going to hire an actress and not tell the viewing audience that it's like a recreated call.

[B]

Like, everything. I just want to be really clear about this. Everything in the original documentary from 2011, the Nine Minute One, is based on a lie. Even what the news is reporting is based on what is what we're about to learn is a total and complete lie. So everything that John, the film student did is a lie. He made a fake documentary about a fake thing. And now these fucking idiots, the Natalia Grace people are like, we should do one too, and waste four episodes on it.

[A]

I will say I don't feel a lot of, like, burning passion. Like, we've met, like, the Dr. Ann Burgesses of the world that want to get to the bottom of shit because it's in their soul and they have to, like, do the right thing for the victims.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not quite feeling that.

[B]

From Shannon and Eric, Zero authenticity from them. From Benjamin Kyle.

[A]

But if you think about, like, if you think about Natalia Grace, it was the same energy. It was like, is this ethical? I don't know. Are they? Is ID telling us that we could do it? Yeah. All right, I guess we're just going to do it then.

[B]

100, you know, so here's who lied and made up the story that he was found beaten and bloody when he, like, Provably was not. Yeah, Catherine, that attending nurse slash good Samaritan that He met in 20 in 2007, three years after Burger King.

[A]

As far as being covered with blood and her stuff, I think Catherine exaggerated some of that because we had absolutely no help whatsoever. I mean, no one was interested in this case. And she did exaggerated it to get help because we needed to get more eyes on this case. And the only way we were going to do that was to make it more dramatic. And it reminded me of the Sneha Phillip thing because she went missing on September 10, 2001. Her family went on the news and said that she called them from inside the towers and they were trying to connect her to 911 to get people to look for her, but she didn't. It was a lie. I mean, it was a lie. And they've come out later and said that it was a lie. And it ended up really fucking up the case for them a lot worse than if they had just been honest.

[B]

Well, Catherine has been conned by this manipulative psychopath, and so she feels, oh, my God, what do you mean? No one's caring about this case.

[A]

But she's also in that, like, body move in from, like, don't fuck with ca. She's one of those people that, like, she's just got her hooks into this case and she wants to solve it. Kind of like by any means necessary.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't see it. I saw it as like, this guy manipulated her, he needed a place to stay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gave her a sob story and she, like, fell for it. Because it is heartbreaking if it's the truth. It's just not unfortunate.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So now we meet Michael Albritton. He's the chief investigator in Georgia. And he says one day, like four years after the fact, Catherine calls him asking about the assault case. And he was like, what do you mean? There was no assault.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so Catherine refuses to accept this. She gets adversarial, and then she starts yelling at the cops and then starts calling the news about how the cops are like, you know, not doing right by Benjamin. And Benjamin is on CNN being introduced as the man who was found beaten. But that is not true.

[A]

So what the chain of events here is that Benjamin told Catherine, Catherine told the news. That becomes the story. Even though it's a lie, the world believes it to the point that Michael's own mother, and even my mother called me on the phone. And my mother basically said, son, I raised you back better than that because of the way I was portrayed in the media. I felt angry because I knew what the truth was. Benjamin Kyle was a fraud. Michael's mother calls him and says, girl, I raced you better than this.

[B]

And she's like, mom, it's not true. You're believing Jeff Probsta. For me, Jeff Probst had a show.

[A]

Don't you? Wait, does Jeff Pro say that he did it?

[B]

Yeah, he's on cnn. He's on Phil, and he's on Jeff Probst.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Like, the guy like. But, like, back. Yeah, we do. We like Jeff Probst.

[A]

We love Jeff Pro.

[B]

And he just. Is that the guy? The host of Survivor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just ruined it.

[A]

Didn't he ruin Survivor?

[B]

He, like. Didn't he say a spoiler, like, on live TV?

[A]

Oh, I haven't been following Survivor 50, but I think that that's right.

[B]

I thought he said something.

[A]

Somebody said a spoiler that, like, he let slip or something, or he.

[B]

It wasn't like this person wins, but it was like this person didn't make it to this chat. Like, he said something where it's like, come back when we see 1 and 2. But, like, the third contestant wasn't named, so it was obvious that they didn't make or something.

[A]

Anyway, 50 seasons, one mistake. We'll let it sl.

[B]

But like, this, like, Chief Michael is like, ma, you're Jeff probes over me. I'm your pride and joy. I know, of course, you raised me better than that. It's a lie. So, like, Mike, Chief Michael is like, hey, everybody, this guy's a fraud, and you're all falling for it.

[A]

And really, Chief Michael is the first one to say it. He's the first one in the timeline to be like, this guy is full of shit. Why are you all believing that?

[B]

Well, him and the guy who did the psychiatric evaluation, because they write in the. In the document, this guy's faking it.

[A]

So they use the word malingering, and Shannon, like me, had to look it up. And this is a definition.

[B]

Malingering is a medical term that refers to the intentional fabrication or exaggeration of physical or psychological symptoms for personal gain or avoiding criminal prosecution.

[A]

For personal gain or to avoid prosecution. So the doctors at the hospital are like, this, amnesia is not real, so

[B]

that cataract surgery probably didn't even happen.

[A]

Oh, is he the only source of that information?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. Hook, line, and sinker over here.

[B]

I mean, that probably didn't happen because it felt weird.

[A]

That, like, the point of saying it,

[B]

I think I. I mean, when you're pathological, I think you just got a lie. And now, like, lies are lies or lies, like, these big lies are so, like, I don't think he really knows any other way.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And Shannon's like, oh, my God, tell me more. I believe every word. So back with Catherine. She was calling the cops, insisted he was being beaten. So. And Benjamin's like, she did it. Catherine did it. Catherine made up the lie, not me. I was just, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then she's like, well, I know I didn't invent the words. Benjamin told me he was beaten, but I can't remember if he said bloody. I was like, that's ironic that she.

[A]

I know, but it's like, you're going to question the victim. You know what I mean? Like, I don't blame you blame Catherine for this.

[B]

And, like, she was targeted by this guy that no one's talking about.

[A]

It's an episode of Worst Roommate Ever. Like, instantly, because she's like, this is when she realizes this guy's like, like, really crazy because he becomes obsessed with web sleuths.

[B]

But eventually he had some falling out. They started to suspect and believe that he's not for real. And then he started to get mad at web sleuths. The administrator, Benjamin, posed as Liz Cook, this person he was mad at, and went onto this other site and got access and started badmouthing her boss to get that person in trouble.

[A]

Benjamin assumes Liz Cook's identity online and starts posting things, like, to her, talking shit about her boss. And he's telling this to his roommate Catherine, like, isn't this hilarious? And Catherine's like, girl, no. And is this what you're going to do to me? Like, if you and I have an argument? And Catherine's like, this was the moment I realized, like, I got to get this fudgeing guy out of my house.

[B]

And he's not this innocent victim. Like she says. He's angry and vindictive and hateful and ugly and devious.

[A]

Because as soon as she says, like, benjamin, what are you thinking about? Like, transitioning. You can't stay here forever. And he's like, I'm never going anywhere.

[B]

Now we hear from Geraldine Stewart. Oh, my God, her audio. She's like 100 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she assumed that Benjamin and Catherine were boyfriend, girlfriend. And so Benjamin, help, quote, helped Geraldine with her computer. But what he really did was install a camera.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He could spy on her. Or as Geraldine calls it, that thing you hook up to your computer and you can see it. Her daughter hears about this, and she's like, he did what? Mom, get out of the house. I'm coming over right now. Don't move.

[A]

He's also, like, wants to be with her. Like, he wants to have sex with her. And she says, I wanted nothing to do with him. He stunk.

[B]

Yeah. And she's like, age is nothing but a number, girl. And Geraldine's like, it's not that you stink. You stink. And he wanted Geraldine's husband's id.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She put an end to that real quick.

[A]

No.

[B]

Catherine kicks Benjamin out of the house. He said, I'm not going anywhere. That's when it really started to get bad. And we were heading out, and I just happened to turn around, and he had this metal, like, ring in the yard. And so he's burning something.

[A]

He grabbed a backpack.

[B]

Maybe he planned this. I don't know.

[A]

He grabbed a backpack.

[B]

I didn't search any of his stuff. He did something to the computer, then he left.

[A]

He's burning his shit and, like, messing with the computer because she then, like, Catherine's brother is a cop. So she calls her brother and is like, like, remove him from my property.

[B]

Yeah, he's also burning stuff on my property. This is not allowed without my permission.

[A]

But he's, like, going through, like, manipulating the computers. The cop brother gets. Gets him out of there.

[B]

This is not a unique situation. This is what this Benjamin guy does. Like, he's manipulative, he takes advantage, he's aggressive. When he doesn't get his way, he's burning every single bridge. It's what he does,

[A]

girl. Ladder is back. I'm so excited about this. Look, Ladder solves your gym problem. The problem being you go to the gym, you don't know what to do, you get overwhelmed, you never go back. Ladder is here to change that for you.

[B]

And the big important distinction is that Ladder is an expert strength training plan, not a content library.

[A]

No.

[B]

So it's not like influencer workouts or like 30 day challenges, which we know is, like, not the point. This is like real progressive programming designed by certified coaches.

[A]

And they're in your ear. That's the whole thing. Like, the mystery of the gym is why people either don't go or they quit quickly because you get there and you don't know what to do. Ladder is, like, in your ear, telling you, walking you through the routines, and making sure you're doing things properly and motivating you. Yes.

[B]

And also, like, I know people are like, oh, do they have Pilates? Like, and anything that you're interested in, like, yeah. Pilates, bodybuilding, if you only have dumbbells at your house, if you want hybrid strength, like glute focused programs, whatever.

[A]

Kettlebells, give me those glues.

[B]

Pre, postnatal, like whatever you would do at the gym, you can find a

[A]

plan and listen, it costs less than a dollar a day. And ladder now includes nutrition tracking at no extra cost because it's all goes hand in hand.

[B]

Yeah. Calories in, calories out.

[A]

Exactly. So fam, remove the guesswork with ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No, think if you have an iPhone,

[B]

head to ladder Fit TCO and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan.

[A]

Use our link to get a free 7 day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join.

[B]

Let's get that plan together and like

[A]

let somebody else tell you how to do it. That's their job.

[B]

That's all I need. That's all I need. Just tell me what to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now we're back with Josh, who before tried to have that invisible tier, but now he's doing better because you kind of see him well up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. He's crying again and he's saying that like, look, when he first met Benjamin, Benjamin was living in the woods, he couldn't get a job. Josh is. I'm like, josh, get it together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He can't talk about Benjamin for two seconds without sobbing. And Josh is saying, I lost my whole world once to my wife was taken away from me.

[B]

So we don't get into any of that.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Here's what's very clear. Josh was vulnerable. Benjamin manipulated him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So tale is oldest time, my friends. Right. So Josh lets Ben stay in his apartment above the garage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything explodes when Josh realizes that Benjamin has bugged Josh's ha house and is recording audio and video.

[A]

And the whole thing about it is like, Josh is like, I really lost my trust in him. Did I ask him to move out? Absolutely not.

[B]

What kind of amnesia is the kind that makes you a computer genius and a hacker.

[A]

Can I get that?

[B]

And an audio video expert I know like is going on because.

[A]

And this is where it gets crazy. Catherine gives Shannon and Eric the computer that he wiped and they bring it to a high end forensic recovery company. We were able to identify that he had various programs. You know, Benjamin was using, you know, Tor, you can use the Tor browser to access the dark web. And what's in the Dark web is anywhere from child pornography, drugs and weapons. You could fire assassin and they find that this guy has been using a program called Tor to access the Dark web.

[B]

Nothing good happens on the Dark Web.

[A]

And like I've heard of the program Tor before. These guys are saying we've never seen it on like a civilian computer before. Like this is a seriously, seriously bad program to access the dark web. The only things you can get on there are like drugs, poison, child sexual abuse material. Like shit to do, really, really bad things to people.

[B]

Weapons, you can hire assassins. You could probably get an ID and a Social Security number two, which he just didn't do. Just didn't live his life.

[A]

But like I really wanted to make sure people heard this. This program Tor is not a thing. People access the Dark web on their personal computers. But Tor is like a highly, highly, highly sophisticated program.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That people don't have that.

[B]

Ben, he also was running a high level anti forensic tool to try to clear everything. Like this guy knows what he's doing.

[A]

Right. So that like a forensic team like this wouldn't be able to figure out what he was doing in there.

[B]

Right. So then I have to slow down on this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All of his searches are bizarre. Like look picking and they're like it's lock picking typo. Yeah. But like all of this weird shit and now he's like sending himself information on cold cases from Colorado and like from the 70s, including near where that place where he's like, this is a perfect place to kill somebody like around that time.

[A]

But he did it in a way that he created a fake email to mirror Catherine. So it looks like Catherine is sending him these emails, but he's sending them to himself using a fake email address.

[B]

Now this is all in 2007, but Shannon is here to scream at us and she's like, there was serial killer stuff on there. I mean you go into my computer, it's like J. Cruz having a sale. It's not like man murders prostitutes and feeds them to pigs and Burger Chef murder. Shannon, first of all, J. Crew is having a sale as an ad, not a search. 100% number one, two. Are you serious? I dare you to look at my search history.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Anyone on web sleuth or anyone. Like I want listening to this podcast

[A]

web history to be like, how can you tell if somebody's 22 or 7? You know what I mean? Give me that website, Shannon.

[B]

And especially the Burger Chef murders, which is like one of the most infamous cases in history. Yeah. Now I will say, however, they are not making it clear about when any of this is happening. We get no timeline. So Catherine met him in 2007, they lived together for four years, call it 2011. Shannon discovered the case in 2012. So we have no idea when the doc got the computer, when they sent it to the computer geniuses or when this recap. Phone call is from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if he was Googling that like it 2026.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Everyone has the Burger Chef murders in their Google.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone's Googling weird shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in 2012, that certainly is a red flag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they are not making it clear when any of these conversations are going on. And that is shady and irresponsible and unethical.

[A]

No, I. Absolutely. I had. So we get. We get tent pole dates. We get like 2004, 2015, we get like 1976 or what? We get these weird tent pole over the decades. But then in the minutiae of like the. The them investigating this, we get no

[B]

timeline and it's intentional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we'll get into it later. Why I think that. But just so you guys know, if you're watching it, they want you to think that this is all happening now. It is not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Almost all of the footage is from 2016 and 2015, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they are acting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. Or they're at least not saying when all of these phone calls are happening.

[A]

You know, my theory on this, and this is new as of like us talking this through, is that I think they had all of this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Then they got the Natalia Grace case, fell into their la. That was super successful. ID or whoever, HBO mattress. Like, what else you got? They're like actually this crazy case from

[B]

2015 and then like pieced it together. I'm talking about like the interview footage with Benjamin Kyle, interview footage with everybody else, the talking heads of the producers inserting themselves every fucking second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's all from 2015. 2016.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're not telling you that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is disingenuous and shady and shitty.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

So also, why not just get a new identity from the Dark web, right?

[A]

What, what, what is it with this guy?

[B]

Like, I'm sure that's possible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know nothing about the Dark Web. I have nightmares about it all. I'm sure you can get an idea. I'm sure that's the tamest thing you can do.

[A]

You give some guy like $30,000, all of a sudden you're working at a Cinnabon in the middle of American mall.

[B]

According to shows like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. That's whatever. Like, you can get. Shit. Yes. Animal Kingdom. They're getting passports all the time.

[A]

I feel like if I needed a new identity, I could have one by the end of the week.

[B]

I agree. Between the two of us, we know people who we can call.

[A]

If I needed to disappear off the face of the planet, I could be gone by Friday. Isn't that crazy to think? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, in 2026.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that shit's possible.

[A]

I know, but that's why it's.

[B]

So what are you getting some ideas?

[A]

You know, parenting is getting to be a real journey.

[B]

The terrible twelves. I've heard. I've heard.

[A]

Oh, my God, I was late today. Not just because I couldn't find a bike for my city bike.

[B]

Okay, we don't have time.

[A]

I know. We don't.

[B]

So now we go to 2015. It's 10 years being discovered in the dumpster behind the Burger King.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Benjamin Kyle suddenly knows who he is.

[A]

So, like, this is another thing that just comes out of nowhere. And we don't know how long it's been since the filmmakers have been in touch with this guy, but we find out it's a Georgia mystery we've been following for close to a year. And this morning, we've learned the unidentified man living under the name Benjamin Kyle now knows his true identity.

[B]

This is more than 10 years after. After Benjamin was discovered by the dumpster behind Burger King.

[A]

My name is William Burgess Powell. Benjamin Kyle learns that his real name is William Burgess Powell. Now, I want to say here, he learns this in July of 2015. It takes them way too long to tell us that, and that will become important.

[B]

And I do want to say this report. First of all, the reporter calls him Benjamin Kyle because that's how he spells it. The screen is insane. We have to unpack this for a second. It looks like a fucking mug shot of him weari a suit from the 70s, but, like, it's him today. And it's. It looks like a. Like a. Like a license photo. And then it has a blue background, and it says, my identity has been found, exclamation point. And then dash, Benjamin Kyle in quotes. So the quote he said is not in quotes. Right, But Benjamin Kyle is in quotes, not his name. And then the ticker on the bottom says controversy. It's like, unidentified man knows his true identity. And then underneath, you know, they have, like, things coming up.

[A]

Yeah, controversy.

[B]

Commercial. 9, 11. Art peanut exec. Since morning forecast. And I'M like, this whole thing is a mess. It's a bad PowerPoint that they put on the news.

[A]

This is why people don't have cable anymore.

[B]

Everybody like, but I love going to a hotel and watching like the local news.

[A]

Oh, local news is good. Also Shark Tank, like that's what I watch.

[B]

Always on in a hotel.

[A]

Always. There should be a Shark Tank channel.

[B]

Do you know if anyone needs to like calm their anxiety or just feel like, you know, think about better days, like the 90s, there is like an app or a website that has the old weather channel with it. Like the same music and the same font.

[A]

I have friends that just watch qvc. They'll just turn on. I would love to watch QVC all day. That sounds.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird. I do miss like flipping around. I'll do that when I go to my parents house.

[A]

You don't.

[B]

Can't flip around anymore.

[A]

It's true. You know, Netflix, hbo, Max Disney.

[B]

Anyway, so, yeah, William, Burgess, Powell, all thanks to Colleen Patrick and CeCe Moore, who are genetic genealogists. We have met CeCe Moore in other documentaries.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So it took them two and a half years to find this guy.

[A]

But like, I'm sorry, it's cece Moore, like, who really did, like, I don't know why we spent any time not going right to genetic genealogists. That was always going to be the only way because she used a method developed for adoption. Searchers, they, they do what you do. Like you get the DNA, you put in 23andMe, you go all the way back through the thing and then you go back down through the trees. Like, we were never going to figure out who he was by taking him to Red Rocks.

[B]

Right. But there's no theater in that.

[A]

It's true. And you know, I appreciate the theater.

[B]

This is Natalia. Grace.

[A]

I know.

[B]

They're showing you exactly right. Like we're not going to get anywhere.

[A]

We're just having fun. I know, I know.

[B]

We're just here for the drama.

[A]

I'm not going to get anywhere. We're just having fun. We know.

[B]

We're just hanging out. So now he's William. But also when the doc talks about him, they call him Benjamin.

[A]

Right? That's the thing. Bam. We're going to go back and forth because they call him William, they call him Ben. Like, I, I'm writing notes down and I'm like, wait, who am I even talking about?

[B]

Right?

[A]

But we learned. They know I had three brothers. Furman is the oldest. Then it's Thomas, then it's me and then it's Robert. Furman is in Indiana. Thomas is dead and, and Robert is in Florida.

[B]

Were they looking for you?

[A]

They did. They thought I was dead, so they stopped looking. They are going to speed past this later, but Benjamin lives in Florida. His younger brother Robert lives in Florida. Robert wants nothing to do with him. When he is identified, Robert wants nothing to do with him. And we never get any information as to why that is.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And we, we learned that like, or at least Benjamin tells us because like we don't know when they talked to him last, but in the time since they last spoke to him, he found out his identity and he found out that his brothers had been looking for him but then just assumed that he was dead and stopped at some point. We don't know.

[B]

And they missed the Phil episode and the fact that this was national news and probs and CNN and all. They missed all of it?

[A]

Yeah. How is that possible?

[B]

It's not, it's not, it's just not.

[A]

They saw him and didn't want anything to do with that.

[B]

They just, it's just not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I like, I, I just like, I like resent it. I think this is so ridiculous. It's a Blair Witch Project.

[A]

Yeah. So. But the Blair Wish project was great.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I saw it in the movie theater back before we even knew if it was real or not.

[B]

Does it hold up now? I tried watching it a couple.

[A]

I remember seeing the missing person's posters for like Heather. What was her last name? Heather. Heather. Oh, I can almost get there. I can almost do it. It was Heather, Josh and Look it up, Mikey.

[B]

Yeah, look it up, look it up.

[A]

Hang on. Heather Donahue. How Heather Donahue, like my, my 21 year old self does not forgive me for not remember these. I was obsessed with the Blair Witch.

[B]

I mean they were going on like the. If you don't remember everyone or if you don't know about it, the Blair Witch Project was, was supposed to be like the first found footage horror movie that was supposed to be real. And even the three stars of it that was like, you know, people in their 20s going in the woods and then they like come upon the Blair Witch whatever horror movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they were going on like the late night shows.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Talking about, oh no, they couldn't have because one of them died in the movie.

[A]

In the movie.

[B]

One of them died.

[A]

Mikey dies in the movie.

[B]

But I guess the other two were going around being like, it wasn't this so horrible. Here's Our footage.

[A]

Well, is that right?

[B]

Am I misremembering it?

[A]

Pretty quickly was like, became clear that it was just a movie. But when it was first out and before it came out, there was missing persons posters.

[B]

Right. The advertising was very real.

[A]

I was in college and I was walking through Harvard Square and I saw a missing persons poster for these three kids. And then it was like the Blair Witch Project. Like we found their phone. So the idea was that the movie was going to help us find the kids. Kids. So we're gonna show you the footage that they.

[B]

It's a genius idea.

[A]

Perfect marketing, billions of dollars.

[B]

I mean like it's, it's just so, and it was so low budget and it was great. It was all handheld stuff. Like it's very, it's a very cool time capsule.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like it's not. I don't want to talk about it because I think it was really cool

[A]

how they did it, what they did. Loved it so much, you know, but

[B]

anyway, but anyway, the point is at least that like did something for film.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like something. But this is all like, at least they came out at the end and admitted it was all bullshit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

These people are going to hold, hold firm.

[A]

Well, so William, because his Florida brother wants nothing to do with them, packs up and moves to Indiana to be near his older brother Josh. Now this is the moment. Josh, who just told us how much he doesn't trust him, doesn't trust Benjamin anymore.

[B]

Be recorded without his consent, rewiring all

[A]

that, Josh is sitting down at his kitchen table with Benjamin. Josh is now crying again, talking about how much he loves Benjamin and how much he's going to miss him as Benjamin is walking out the door. If this hoax, I really don't know what I would say. I would feel terrible, but I really don't know what I would say at this point. No, you'd probably say, God, he was good, he fooled everyone. Benjamin goes, you'd say he was good, he fooled everyone. The camera, like it's a scene from Arrested Development cuts to Josh's face and he just stands there speechless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hearing Benjamin say that, he's like, oh, I be screwed. He just, he just can't. Like, he cannot. It was just a perfect like gym in the office. Like it cuts him like, just stone faced. I laughed out loud.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's. And it's like, uh huh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, oh, the guy who was, why was he recording you without your consent? And why are you crying?

[A]

I know.

[B]

And why are you not like pressing Charges or getting mad at him for this. I know, like, weird and creepy. What is he doing with that footage?

[A]

Benjamin just walks out by.

[B]

So the documentary team. This one asks him for a Social Security number because he has one. Now that his identity has been found, this guy starts sweating.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Snowman in a sauna. He is beside himself. He's wiping his brow. He's stuttering. He's trying to do that, like, boomer things, trying to buy time. And he's like, I don't know. These fancy phones y' all got down. Down here shore. And I'm like, what?

[A]

But he makes a critical mistake because in order to, like, delay the inevitable, he's like, well, my. Since he was identified, his missing persons report was also identified from 1976. From 1976. And so Benjamin slash William, a copy of it. And he's like, let me just send it to you, Shannon and Eric, because it has my Social Security number in it. He sends it to them, and it has. It's like a treasure trove of information he never wanted them to have.

[B]

Also, this is from 76. So that. I swear to God, I was at the red rocks in 78. That's out the window.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is 76. So again, it doesn't matter. Anyone would conflate 76 and 78. I'm just saying. So this report has a ton of information. And just to be clear, he deliberately didn't hand it over to the documentary until they pressed him on the Social Security number. He was. He had this. He hit it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And way over his head. And thank God. These filmmakers are such dummies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They just keep falling for it. Because anyone else would be like, this is over.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're scamming us. It's over.

[A]

I think in Shannon and Eric's defense, they're like, but we want to find out why. I think at this point, at least, the premise of the documentary is like, let's figure out what's going on here.

[B]

But you don't need him to do that.

[A]

Then I wonder. I wonder about that.

[B]

You could still do your research.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, like, do a gotcha moment. Because you should, I guess.

[A]

But, like, okay, look, I know, but to play devil's advocate, it's like they went to the Natalia Grace Film Academy.

[B]

But remember it? Oh, no. When was Natalia Grace taking place?

[A]

I don't know. But all I know is Natalia Grace came out first. So I feel like they just had reams of this footage. And they're like, I agree. We're Just like, this is just how I think Shannon and Eric make movies

[B]

because they did three seasons of Natalia Grace, and then the Curious Case of series was. Remember was the Curious Case in Italy.

[A]

Do that, too.

[B]

It's their production company.

[A]

That's good. I think the Curious Case series is good.

[B]

What we need is Beth Caris.

[A]

I. We do. We do.

[B]

I agree with you. I think they had this footage. They knew it was a nothing burger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now they wrapped it up.

[A]

I don't agree. I don't agree that it's a nothing burger. Well, we'll get there. I love that you. I love that we don't agree on that. But I. Episode three is especially, like. I can't. Like, we got to keep moving. This did not need to be four episodes. Like. Like, Shannon and Eric. If I could give you some feedback, like, just tighten it up, please. Just back. But, like, I kind of understand what they're doing with, like, we got to keep this guy close.

[B]

Sure. But if you're going to do that, you have to be good at it. And they're not good at it.

[A]

Tight. It's just not tight. I need it tighter.

[B]

It's not. So here's what we learned from the missing persons report from 1978. This is a big deal. It gave a home address. It had the name of the officers that talked to him. It looks like why he left Indiana. And then the. It basically says that William Powell is linked to people who are engaged in criminal activity. One of the guys is a crime boss. His home address, the name of the officers that spoke to all the brothers, the reasons why he probably skipped town, including burglary and robbery. The fact that he fled like a literal thief in the night, took the license plate off the car and dumped a car in the woods.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which was probably a stolen car. Well. And, like, he's on the run.

[A]

Right. FBI Ken is like, these are the actions of somebody who's, like, purposefully evading, like, law enforcement.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's like, why. Like, why was he doing that? And what must be so crazy if you're. If you're Shannon. And Eric is like, he knows. Like, he's telling us he has amnesia. Nobody believes that. He knows the answer. Just fudgeing. Tell us.

[B]

Yeah, there's a way to do that. And these two don't know how to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, there is a documentary there.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not this one.

[A]

Yeah. I agree.

[B]

Other people could have gotten it out of him somehow.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Or it would have been A little bit more compelling.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Than like, just literally wandering around Boulder,

[A]

going to the library.

[B]

Oh, there's that landmark. Who are you there with? I don't know. At one point, they're like, bro, we are following your lead. And I'm like, everyone's lying. I don't.

[A]

He's walking through the traffic hoping a car is just going to hit him.

[B]

The fact that they didn't act concerned, it's like, everyone's lying. This is all staged. Like, where's crafty? Did you guys have a good pre pro meeting? This is. You're all lying also, too.

[A]

Like, this guy Benjamin, William, whatever his name is, like, just said that feels like the worst time. He just feels like the worst. Like the worst person to spend time with.

[B]

Like a drip and a half.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

This documentary is based on a documentary. That was a lie.

[A]

Need I say that was also nine minutes.

[B]

That was nine minutes. Well, like, again, can we meet in the middle?

[A]

I know, honestly.

[B]

Okay, so in 1983, Benjamin or William Powell stops existing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's no trace of him at all. So where was he from 1983 until the dumpster behind the Burger King in 2004?

[A]

So now Ken takes William slash Benjamin to the Social Security office.

[B]

He's the FBI. FBI superstar with the badass at it.

[A]

FBI can and like, the whole thing is that they need to get him a Social Security. Now that he's got a name, he needs a Social Security number. That's been the hold up this whole time.

[B]

He has it from the missing persons report. They just, like, need a card. They want to get a Medicare.

[A]

Yes. Right. They want. And Ben and Benjamin insists that he does not have Medicare. So the social. They're in line. They go up to the window. They are miked up. So we hear this. The Social Security guy says, you do have medicine, Medicare, limo. You signed up then. Okay, you have signed up. That was effective April of 2015.

[B]

Social Security Administrator told us that William Powell had applied for Medicare before CC Moore had figured out who he was before he knew he was William Powell.

[A]

You signed up for Medicare in April 2015. And Ben's like, oh, oh, oh, well, I forgot about that. I forgot about that.

[B]

You cannot. I forgot your way out of this one, buddy.

[A]

This is a major bombshell because he signed up for Medicare under his real name, William Powell, in April. The genealogists did not give him his identity. They did not know who he was until July, four months later. Four months later. So he signed up for Medicare using the name William Powell, before he, quote, knew that he was William Powell and

[B]

his Social Security number.

[A]

Yes, right. He had it.

[B]

He knew it. He's known it the whole time.

[A]

And it's like, ben, what did you think was going to happen when you let FBI. FBI can take you to the Social Security office like you were about to get. And I think, like, I think to Benjamin's credit, he keeps waiting for Eric and Shannon to be like, girl, we caught you.

[B]

This all really lucked out for everybody.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Unless it's all staged from every end. Benjamin really lucked out with these two dingbats that they never.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because, like. And I think we're at that point, which we get to often, where someone has just been getting away with it the whole time. And, like, yeah, he's been manipulating everybody. And even superstar FBI Ken is like, oh, yeah. So whenever and whenever he's backed into a corner, everything's, oh, I don't know. Wait, where am I? He claims the amnesia. I just don't remember.

[A]

My big note here is like, why is nobody calling him on this in real time? And Eric and Shannon are gonna say, no, we need to keep him believing that we believe him so we can use him to find out why he did this. And then further to your question, it's like, okay, but at this point, why do we care?

[B]

And also. So the guy.

[A]

So we have two episod to go. I know, I know.

[B]

So Benjamin is like, well, I don't like to speculate, but, like, maybe I changed my name, and then maybe I just made up a Social Security number. And FBI Ken goes, okay, well, that's fraud.

[A]

And it's also just like. So you're saying you just invented a name that just. Of all the name possibilities in the English language, you invented a name that four months later was just going to happen to end up being. And Ken just. His head must be blowing off his shoulders, having to pretend to believe that that is a possibility.

[B]

And so Ben Williams shoots back.

[A]

Yeah, well, how do the Mexicans get away with it? Well, not all of them get away with it. They get deported and some of them get thrown in jail. You don't want that to happen to you, do you?

[B]

Well, how did the Mexicans get away with it? And I, you know, I think we all saw this coming.

[A]

I mean, I didn't know.

[B]

I felt it in my bones. I didn't know when. I didn't know how.

[A]

Ken's got a great answer for it,

[B]

but I felt like that statement was imminent. Oh, right. You get one look at this guy

[A]

and you're like, oh, yeah. But Ken fires right back. He's like, they don't. They get arrested and they go to jail for fraud.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And by the way, I think Ken is saying those who do this fraudulently, which is a very small number, get arrested and go to jail.

[B]

FBI Ken.

[A]

FBI Ken. Ken's on the right side of history with that answer.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

What he's saying is, like, it doesn't happen, girl.

[B]

Right. He's just starting the thing in that moment. You have to realize now. Oh, he's very comfortable and he knows he's in charge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because now it's just like the blatant racism is coming out and we'll get more of it later.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, oh, he knows, like, for whatever reason, these people are believing me.

[A]

Right. And so now we're in the car with Ken and Benjamin, and this is the first time they that Benjamin says out loud that he knows that Eric and Shannon have twins and a nanny.

[B]

And Shannon's like, how do they know that? And I'm like, girl, you and your husband have been filming him for a couple years at this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to be his friend. It's not crazy that you would pick up personal details about yourself. You think, like, Right.

[A]

Like, well, especially when we, like in later episodes, we see how she tries to relate to other people. She's trying to get information out of. She does it by, like, talking about herself.

[B]

I, I, Yeah, I don't think she does. Yeah, I understand. You know what I mean?

[A]

That often an investigator she is.

[B]

And so also, so now that's number one. It's not crazy.

[A]

No.

[B]

That he would know that about you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's number one. Number two, she's very openly talking about a lot of details that she was very upset about him finding it out and keeping it in the doc. So I guess she's not worried about it anymore. This documentary opened with her sobbing about how terrified she is.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Yet so she, like, I don't understand.

[A]

Right. I do love that. Like, if finally we cut back to Ken, who's like, by the way, this, like, Social Security information stuff, the Medicare stuff, it shows that he's definitively lying. Like, somebody has to say it out loud to the came for the first time. Like, like, he's definitely lying.

[B]

It's like, FBI, Ken, how much are they paying you exactly? Is it worth it?

[A]

I know. And so, like, now they come up with a plan.

[B]

So tomorrow we're going to go to Indiana. We're Going to split into two crews. One crew is going to be with him, keeping tabs on him and keeping him busy, keeping him happy. The other crew, it'll be us. And we'll be knocking on doors. We'll be figuring out this missing persons report. We'll be asking people in Lafayette who this William Powell is. So crew number one is going to keep him busy and keep him happy, and the second crew is going to, like, actually investigate. So say yes. So we're in Lafayette, Indiana, and William. Ben goes to meet his older brother Furman.

[A]

Now, he's very nervous, like Benjamin. Slash, William is in the car on the way there, and he is very. I mean, he's sweating as though somebody just asked him for a Social Security number.

[B]

Right? And he's like. And he's like, that's weird because I don't remember him. I'm like, save it, buddy.

[A]

I know too much.

[B]

You're laying on way too thick.

[A]

We had a whole second act.

[B]

So they haven't seen each other since the 70s, and they are meeting at their childhood home. When I tell you these two have nothing to say. It is very awkward.

[A]

So wild.

[B]

Until Ben tries squeezing out a few tears.

[A]

I know. So we're at the house they grew up in, and my note here is like, it is just so awkward. Ben walks up to him and goes. So finally we meet, and Furman just goes, what? I can't hear you.

[B]

He's like. Verner spits in the. Something wrong with that den. What? Fox Us. What?

[A]

Fox Fat. Fat. And so they're just, like, staring at the house. The whole thing that comes out in this section is that Furman is going to tell us that their dad drank a lot and was extremely physically abusive, especially to William slash Benjamin.

[B]

Right. And like, Furman says that William Benjamin was in pure hell. And I'm like, okay, well, that sucks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's like, not a total monster. Obviously, you feel bad for the guy

[A]

hearing that, but he's sitting down with the producer, and he goes, well, if the abuse was really as bad as Furman says it was, maybe that would explain the amnesia. And the producer is like, you mean the amnesia that came 20 years later?

[B]

And I thought the beating caused the amnesia.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

The beating that didn't happen.

[A]

Right. And so Dr. Kim is back to

[B]

be like, I'm not sold on Benjamin's amnesia.

[A]

Benjamin's assertion that his memory loss is

[B]

a product of childhood trauma decades later doesn't necessarily add up.

[A]

It makes me suspicious about whether Benjamin actually has amnesia. I'M not really sold on this amnesia thing.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

No. Because she's like, the idea that amnesia would come from childhood trauma, but 20 years later, like, that's just not a thing.

[B]

Right. I don't know why she's not a bigger part of this. Like, I don't know why.

[A]

Because she's the voice of. They don't want a voice of reason.

[B]

Well, right.

[A]

They. They don't. They, like, they. For better or for worse, like, this is how they make things. Like, they want us following them down the Natalia Grace rabbit hole.

[B]

If this was a real documentary, she'd be in it more.

[A]

She. They want us to, like, watch Natalia Grace, like, fucking hobbling up the stair. Remember that?

[B]

Everything about that doc was so awful.

[A]

And, like, I think about Natalia Grace all the time. And, like, what they. What they. What the world has done to her.

[B]

What would have been really great is if they took their Natalia Grace, notoriety and money and, like, did something good with it. This is a waste of everyone's time. We're having fun. But, like, you could have done something good. You could have been like, you know what? We're going to learn from this? We're going to, like, do something ethical. We're going to actually make a difference. We're going to help people, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of this.

[A]

That's not. They did. No. So the episode ends with Furman and Benjamin going into the house. And Furman's mic is still on. Everyone is saying that nobody knew that Furman's mic was still hot. And here's my thing. They knew the mic was hot. They knew the mic was on. Are they hoping for, like, a jinx Robert Durst moment here?

[B]

I'm going to get into the jinx more in the next episode. But I think above all, they want this documentary to be like, the jinx. I think they're trying very, very hard to make it that. Especially with this hot mic moment, because. Has not killed them all.

[A]

Of course, Robert Durst moment, like, legitimately was caught on a hot mic that nobody, like. Like a sound engineer, per your research, found it, like, months later.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it feels to me like this is a staged. It's meant. It's meant to be that moment. But everybody knew the mic was on.

[B]

Right. Or maybe Benjamin, William didn't, but everybody else did.

[A]

Like, Shannon and Eric definitely did 100%, whereas Jareki definitely did not.

[B]

Right. And I think they would say, like, oh, no, because they definitely secretly film people a lot in this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, Fuhrman is Like, you are

[A]

not in with the creator. And the Navajo, they believe that killing people is such a horrible. And you're so out of harmony with the creator. Before they come home, we have to go to a sacred place, have a healing ceremony.

[B]

Listen, brother, you are not in harmony with the creator. Creator. And he talks about how the Navajo people believe that you have to go to a sacred place to have a healing ceremony and make peace with the creator before you die. You know, because you're a murderer.

[A]

Right? If you're right. And that's how episode two ends.

[B]

If you're a murderer, you have to come to peace. And also Furman's like, but come on in.

[A]

Right? Exactly.

[B]

And let me give you a tour of our childhood home, which you absolutely remember 100%, because at one point, Benjamin's like, oh, I thought, oh, I remember that thing being over there. So he must not know the mic is on, but everyone around him does, right? Which is also like. Like, we. We gotta do better than that.

[A]

Like, this is it.

[B]

Like,

[A]

Oh, my God, girl. All right, we did episode one of the coverage of the many lives of Benjamin Kyle. So episode two, which covers their episodes three and four, is available right now and ad free at the $5 level on the Patreon. So if you just can't wait till next week to hear the item, we're about to scream through the next. The next two episodes right now.

[B]

This is where, like, all of the jinx stuff comes through and it falls so flat.

[A]

Look, episode three is, like, I think this ends strongly, but episode three is, like, very hard for me.

[B]

I really want to talk about why you think it.

[A]

Okay, okay. Okay.

[B]

I'm really excited to dive in.

[A]

Don't forget, join our Patreon. Go subscribe to our YouTube. Over 525,000 subscribers on YouTube. Go check it out.

[B]

God. Thank you, everybody.

[A]

We don't have it coming up on because you know what it is when we don't have a trailer for it. So we love you. Get out of here.

[B]

We love you. See you later. All right.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Be safe. Bye.