512: The Many Lives of Benjaman Kyle - Part 2

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 512: The Many Lives of Benjaman Kyle - Part 2

Release Date: July 14, 2026
Podcast Hosts: Patrick & Julia Bezavale
Recapping: HBO/Max/Discovery+ Documentary – "The Many Lives of Benjaman Kyle," episodes 3 & 4

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Episode Overview

Part 2 picks up with the hosts concluding their hilarious, snarky recap of "The Many Lives of Benjaman Kyle," a true crime documentary trying to unravel the mysterious decades-long disappearance and double life of Benjaman Kyle (aka William Powell). Patrick and Julia dig deep (sometimes unintentionally!) into the documentary’s flaws, confusing timeline, dubious sources, and jaw-dropping twists—sprinkling the whole thing with signature True Crime Obsessed wit and skepticism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mafia or Just Local Thugs?

• Early Doubts:
  Both hosts throw cold water on the documentary's hints of big, cinematic mob ties.
  • “I don't think it's Mafia connected. I don't know. But, like, I do think that this was Ben's actual job, and I think it is why he ended up disappearing.” (Julia, 00:00)
  • “Ben is a bad guy who's involved with bad people and he crossed the wrong guy and he was on the run.” (Patrick, 00:08)
• Terminology Matters:
  They lampoon the filmmakers’ overuse of terms like “crime family,” “capo,” and “hitman,” arguing these are just local criminals.
  • “You don't need to call them, like, the soldiers and the kingpins and the hitman or whatever. Like, that's not what this is.” (Julia, 00:17)

2. Benjaman’s Family and Early Life

• Second Cousin Confusion:
  The hosts comically bicker over the meaning of "second cousin."
  • “A second cousin is someone who shares the same great grandparents as you.” (Patrick, 01:52)
• Benjaman’s Social Detachment:
  They point out how Benjaman distances himself from relatives, especially cousin Mike.
  • “You just said you were so heartbroken that no one ever reached out and you won’t hug the guy for the sake of the bit you’ve been doing for 30 years.” (Patrick, 03:02)
• Abusive Childhood:
  The documentary briefly touches on possible roots of Benjaman’s later behavior.
  • “Our dad was so abusive that William Benjamin was only 14 when he moved out of the house and got his own apartment.” (Furman, recollected by Julia, 04:47)
  • Hosts agree: “This is how you fuck people up and make monsters.” (Julia, 05:13)

3. Most Unreliable Witness Ever—Isla’s Wild Backstory

• Isla's Claims about Benjaman:
  Isla, allegedly a close friend, claims Benjaman lived with her, ate hundreds of waffles, and was an enforcer/hitman from 1994–2000. None of this lines up with accepted timelines.
  • “If this is true ... he was crashing with me all the time down the street from where his brother lives. But the brother hasn’t seen him since 1976? What is going on?” (Julia, 15:43)
• Isla’s Notorious Secret:
  Patrick launches into one of the episode’s most jaw-dropping tangents: Isla spent time in jail for living with her dead husband’s body for nine months, hoping birds would come and eat him, as per his “last wishes.”
  • “Her husband wanted to be eaten by birds following his death, so she left his body in the house for nine months, let the doors and windows open for the birds to come in so they could eat him.” (Patrick, 18:02)
  • “The coroner determined that Gavin’s dead body had been there for nine months.” (Julia, 18:30)

4. Lafayette’s ‘Crime Families’—Sense and Nonsense

• Retired Detective Jimmy’s Take:
  • “In the 70s and 80s, it was like Lafayette was a rough place. There were four or five major crime families ... lot of burglaries, car thefts, drug dealers, prostitution, and there were numerous unsolved homicides.” (Jimmy Kesterson, recapped 09:25)
  • Both hosts agree this is not “Mafia” in the cinematic sense, and rib the filmmakers for believing their own “Mafia gospel.” (10:30)

5. Sue: The Crime-Tinged Seductress

• Sue claims a romantic relationship with Benjaman, describes him as “dark, violent, and sexy” and says “everyone” rumored him to be a hitman.
  • “Literally everybody says he’s a hitman.” (Julia, 25:37)
  • “He looked in my eyes and I got lost in his eyes.” (Sue, as relayed by Julia, 25:00)
• Sue is visibly scared to talk about local crime bosses; her friend warns her to keep quiet, and the doc crew censors names for “safety.” (25:37)

6. Failed ‘Jinx’ Moments and Hostile Interrogations

• The filmmakers attempt a “Jinx”-inspired authenticity by introducing an FBI hostage negotiator (Chris Voss) to “suss out” Benjaman, but it fails spectacularly.
  • “He may as well be wearing a T-shirt that says ‘I’m from the FBI.’” (Julia, 27:44)
• Both party and audience agree Benjaman is “a manipulative liar”—no need for an FBI profiler. (Patrick, 27:54)

7. Chico: The Party Buddy, Not Capo

• Chico, who was with Benjaman the night he vanished, describes them as party pals, not criminals.
  • “We had a lot of fun. We were pretty young and dumb and did some stupid things. But we were both pretty honest folks.” (Chico, via Julia, 36:06)
• The doc tries to gin up a confrontation when Chico and Benjaman are reunited after decades; hosts note there’s zero reaction—likely because they weren’t actually close.
  • “When Chico walked in, I don’t think Benjaman recognized him.” (Julia, 38:13)

8. George Keck: The Real Villain

• Former colleague of Benjaman and confirmed sex offender.
  His wife claimed he returned home bloody the night a woman at Purdue (Christine Kozak) was murdered, but she was too scared to testify.
  • “He was extremely abusive ... once shot her in the leg, stabbed her in the back.” (Julia, 54:39)
  • “George Keck absolutely did it.” (Patrick, 67:41)

9. Chaos of Timelines and Documentary Ethics

• The timelines make absolutely no sense: Benjaman is supposedly missing, yet popping up locally; Isla’s claims, Sue’s affair, janitor work, etc., are all irreconcilable (53:00–54:16).
• The hosts are incensed by the documentary’s lack of transparency, fabrication of bombshells, and time-jumping:
  • “They want you to think so. This whole, like we’ve been working on it for ten years? No, you haven’t. This is footage from ten years ago that you have repackaged and probably filmed talking.” (Patrick, 71:34)

10. Shaky DNA Evidence and Faux Heroics

• The doc crew tries to collect DNA at a Mongolian barbecue and Panera—badly contaminating “evidence.”
  • “This is not how you collect DNA. If you want it to be reliable.” (Patrick, 62:29)
• Shannon, the producer, promises Christine Kozak’s elderly mother that justice will be done, which the hosts find exploitative.
  • “It is reprehensible that she did this. Just know that your daughter fought.” (Patrick, 65:07)

11. Ending—No One Gets Closure

• The “anonymous” phone calls and supposed threats are ultimately as suspect as everything else, with the most logical explanation being Benjaman himself is behind them (68:59).
• Benjaman disappears in 2016; George Keck died in 2020. The documentary leaves all threads dangling, never following up on key developments.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Second Cousin Chaos

• Patrick: “A second cousin is someone who shares the same great grandparents as you, but not the same grandparents.” (01:52)
• Julia: “I already have a headache.” (02:05)

On Isla’s legendary bird body story:

• Patrick: “Her husband wanted to be eaten by birds following his death, so she left his body in the house for nine months.” (18:02)
• Julia: “They only got as far as the air conditioner.” (18:30)

Mafia Nonsense:

• Julia: “They're just a bunch of criminals. And I think that they're real, and I think that Ben did work for sure. I don't think it's mafia connected.” (29:36)

Bombshells That Aren’t:

• Patrick: “They are begging. They're trying to manufacture these bombshells that don't exist. And that is also bad documentary.” (39:26)

Fake Heroics/DNA:

• Patrick: “This is not how you collect DNA. If you want it to be reliable.” (62:29)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–01:30: Mafia speculation; opening recap
• 04:47–05:35: Benjaman's abusive childhood and its psychological cost
• 15:43–18:30: Isla’s claims and bizarre criminal background
• 25:00–25:37: Sue’s romantic and criminal stories about Benjaman
• 27:44–27:54: FBI profiler cameo flops
• 36:06–38:58: Chico’s non-dramatic reunion with Benjaman and doc’s failed drama build
• 53:00–54:39: Timeline fails and murder connections at Purdue
• 62:00–64:00: DNA "collection" at Mongolian Barbecue/Panera
• 67:41: Final assessment—George Keck killed Christine Kozak
• 71:00–72:11: Reveal that Benjaman vanished in 2016, not recently; timeline/ethics criticisms

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Closing Thoughts/Tone

Patrick and Julia are at their best in this episode—funny, irreverent, and razor-sharp in their critique. Their biggest gripes: the documentary's slippery relationship with facts, timelines, and bombshells; the repeated attempt to inflate local thuggery into Goodfellas-level mafia intrigue; and most of all, using unreliable, even unhinged, witnesses for major claims.

Parting Shot:

• “What is this called?” – “The Blair Witch Project, true crime version. I’m sorry.”* (72:42)

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For fans wanting honesty, laughs, and a healthy suspicion of true crime storytelling, this is a recap not to miss. And if you see Benjaman—or a microwave cookbook—True Crime Obsessed wants you to call…

Transcript

[Julia Bezavale]

I don't think it's Mafia connected. I don't know. But, like, I do think that this was Ben's actual job, and I think it is why he ended up disappearing.

[Patrick]

Ben is a bad guy who's involved with bad people and he crossed the wrong guy and he was on the run.

[Julia Bezavale]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

Simple.

[Julia Bezavale]

And like, I think that and Shannon trying to connect it to crime families, making it. We don't need it to be bigger than what it is. Like, if the point is to find out where this guy was for those 20 years or whatever. Like, you don't need to call them, like, the soldiers and the kingpins and

[Patrick]

the hitman capo or whatever. Like, that's not what this is.

[Julia Bezavale]

No. Hi, Julia Bezavale.

[Patrick]

Hi, Patrick.

[Julia Bezavale]

Hi. What are we talking about?

[Patrick]

Today we are finishing up our coverage of the many lives of Benjamin. Kyle should be lies, I know.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

This is their episode three and four. But we're wrapping this up.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's our episode two.

[Patrick]

Our episode two. This is on hbo. Max Discovery plus. So this starts with episode three. It's called the Bouncer.

[Julia Bezavale]

It opens with a recap of that. Furman, the conversation with Fuhrman, the brother. Previously on and which basically, they don't know they're being recorded, supposedly what we're supposed to believe. And Furman is like, bitch, you killed people. You need to get right with the Lord, essentially.

[Patrick]

Yeah. You're not in balance with the Creator because you're a goddamn murderer. And then Furman's not scared. Furman is like, and now you go out into the world because now we're gonna be, like, wandering aimlessly around town with Furman is, like, looking pretty chummy with someone who he just thought was a murderer.

[Julia Bezavale]

The whole point now is that Shannon and Eric are like, we're gonna let Benjamin believe that, but while we're in town, we're gonna track down people who knew him to try to figure out where the hell that guy was for all those missing years.

[Patrick]

We're at this guy Benjamin's second cousin's house.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Can we talk about second cousins for a second?

[Julia Bezavale]

So the second cousin is the. Is the child of the cousin.

[Patrick]

I had to Google this.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

A second. Tell me if this makes sense to you.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

A second cousin is someone who shares the same great grandparents as you, but not the same grandparents. You and your second cousin both descend from the same set of great grandparents. Your grandparent and their grandparent were siblings.

[Julia Bezavale]

Wait, okay. Because I can't make it make sense. Well, I'M already. I already have a headache.

[Patrick]

Just point is, just say cousin, because Benjamin's like, I'm at my second cousin's house. Like, I. Okay. So my cousins, their dad, like, through marriage. Like, my mom's sister's husband.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

One of the Mike's. The Mike who said that really nice thing.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

He has an awesome family. The Flemings. They're the coolest. They're like, I love, love, love them. But, like, they're all my cousins, even though Mike is my uncle through marriage.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

His sister's my cousin, her husband's my cousin. Their kids are my cousin and a sp.

[Julia Bezavale]

Especially because we learned that Mike and Benjamin were really close. So, like, Mike is like, the age of what like Benjamin's son would be if he had one.

[Patrick]

Not thrilled to be on camera, the poor guy.

[Julia Bezavale]

Not thrilled. They're. First of all, going into this, Benjamin is like, I wonder why none of my cousins ever looked for me. Like, bitch, nobody wanted you back. They were happy that you were gone.

[Patrick]

Mike is, like, trying to. He's like, I'm here to be on camera. Like, I'm not comfortable, but I'll do it. Mike says, are you a hugger? And Benjamin's like, gross. No.

[Julia Bezavale]

No, bro.

[Patrick]

Dude, really? You just said you were so heartbroken that no one ever reached out and you won't hug the guy for the sake of the bit that you've been doing for 30 years.

[Julia Bezavale]

And also, like, Mike is gonna say, like, you were here and then you were gone. And that really sucked for me because you were like a big brother to me. Which none of us believe that Benjamin had amnesia. All of us believe that Benjamin knows who this person is. Is pretending to not recognize him, which means if that bond was real, Benjamin is just pretending that he'd never felt it. Doesn't know who this guy is. Perfect stranger to him.

[Patrick]

You have being a dick.

[Julia Bezavale]

And you've got to be some kind of psychopath or sociopath to be able to actually do that.

[Patrick]

Well, to that point, this is for the at least third time that Benjamin says unprompted.

[Julia Bezavale]

The only thing we know is that I am not an axe murderer because they can't find my fingerprints anywhere on any crime scenes or anything. Well, you didn't get. You didn't get caught for.

[Patrick]

And then it cuts to Benjamin laughing, and Mike, the cousin doesn't. Is it irresponsible editing, perhaps? There's a very good chance.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But there's no mistaking that this whole I'm not an axe murderer thing is Something that this guy says unprompted, repeatedly.

[Julia Bezavale]

And also, like, if the point is to talk to these people, to try to get close to understanding where Benjamin was, we get none of that for Mike. They don't even ask him.

[Patrick]

No. Like, I think I feel bad for Mike because if it's true that he. Because now I'm in my whole. Like, I don't believe anybody.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But if this were true, like, what you were saying, like, he felt a closeness and then felt abandoned or sad or whatever. Like, I feel bad, but we don't spend any other time with Mike. And just, like, this wasn't really necessary unless you just wanted to show us that he will say to everybody, he's not an axe murderer.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right. It's not getting us closer. So we're back with Furman, the older brother, and he says, our dad was so abusive that William Benjamin was only 14 when he moved out of the house and got his own apartment. He says, all my life I wondered how he paid for that. 14 years old.

[Patrick]

We don't get into that at all.

[Julia Bezavale]

It is heartbreaking to me. My kid is 12 and a half.

[Patrick]

Sure.

[Julia Bezavale]

Like, that's a year and a half from now. Be moving out of my house to fend for herself in the world.

[Patrick]

It's horrifying.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's. It's real. And like, I always say that one of the things I am interested in these documentaries is to see how the monster is created. Like, this guy's a monster for sure. But, like, that's kind of how, like, when kids are abused from the start, forced to fend for themselves at 14 years old. Like, this is how you fuck people up and make monsters.

[Patrick]

Right? And, like. But however, we don't get any details about how he paid for any of this or what his life was like.

[Julia Bezavale]

I mean, all that we learned is that he and where he moved was with this family called the Richardsons. They had, like, they had a. Like, a trailer on their property that he moved into. So now we're with Clayton Richardson, who hasn't seen Ben slash. Slash Williams since 1976 when he vanished.

[Patrick]

And so the two of them sit down and it's a lot of, like,

[Julia Bezavale]

do you remember where you lived at and how you met me? How you met my dad? Did your dad have a gas station behind Crossman Theater? Yes, he did. He called it Richardson's Conoco, but that's the trailer where you lived at. Do you remember the ceiling was so low and you so tall.

[Patrick]

No.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. No.

[Patrick]

Do you remember this? And Ben's like, yes, no, no.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right. Maybe Clayton's crying. Everyone is sobbing.

[Patrick]

But now we get a vibe change. We get the cool music. And we see this guy driving around this beautiful property on a tractor.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And he says to us, I'm Jimmy Kesterson, and if you can't tell, I really like tractors. Like, tell me all about it, Jimmy.

[Julia Bezavale]

Tell me Jimmy.

[Patrick]

Also, he's on a tractor, driving by a tractor. And that tractor that he's driving by is part of this, like, massive floral display. And it's enormous. And it looks so funny because look how small Jimmy looks. Because I was gonna say Jimmy, he's so teeny tiny.

[Julia Bezavale]

Isn't he on a riding lawnmower? Like, we're not calling a riding lawnmower a tractor, are we?

[Patrick]

He's saying, it's a tractor, all right?

[Julia Bezavale]

I'm not. Who am I?

[Patrick]

Look at how big the thing is. And look how small Jimmy looks.

[Julia Bezavale]

I mean, that's wild. That means that tractor must be enormous.

[Patrick]

And it's surrounded by flowers.

[Julia Bezavale]

I love that.

[Patrick]

And she's never been happier.

[Julia Bezavale]

Property is very well maintained. The landscaping is impeccable.

[Patrick]

Is it a golf course? I don't know where he is, but Jimmy's here, and he's a retired detective lieutenant for the Indiana State Police. He was with them for 28 years. He also loves his cat. No lower third for the cat.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh.

[Patrick]

He's, like, holding the cat, and the cat's purring.

[Julia Bezavale]

Wow.

[Patrick]

Okay, great moment.

[Julia Bezavale]

We have a cat on this. Well, wait, I forget. Are you a cat hater?

[Patrick]

I'm not a cat hater. I'm allergic to them.

[Julia Bezavale]

That's right. Jesus said no. But yeah. Yeah, girl. Rocket Money is back. Quick story. My friend Steven this weekend was like, I have all of these subscriptions to things on my bank account that I, like, have no idea how to cancel. I was like, girl, let me tell you about Rocket Money.

[Patrick]

Rocket Money can track subscriptions and has the ability to cancel unwanted ones. That's my favorite thing. It's just like, tap, tap, tap. And it saves users over $880 million in canceled subscriptions. That's a lot of dough.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, like, as if that weren't enough, talk about getting everything in one place. So they've got automatic transfer categorization across accounts. So, like, put everything in one place so you can see it all together.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the app consolidates checking, savings, loans, investments, all of the accounts you have, into a single dashboard. So you can really see your entire financial picture and be like, okay, loving that Hating that. Need help canceling? Yes.

[Julia Bezavale]

And Rocket Money sends you real time alerts. I get them all the time, anytime. If I have to, like, pay a large bill or I have to, like, any weird large amount of money, I always get an email being like, is this you, girl?

[Patrick]

Yeah. Also, they remind you about upcoming bills or low balances. Oh, your account getting a little low. Got to check that out.

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocket money.com/eyed.

[Julia Bezavale]

That's rocket money.com/eyed.

[Patrick]

Rocket money.com/eyed

[Julia Bezavale]

fam. Before we get back to the show, just a reminder, if you want more tco, if you want to make new true crime friends, join our Facebook group. Yep, over like 60,000 people in the Facebook group.

[Patrick]

Crazy.

[Julia Bezavale]

And our Discord. You gotta tell them about the Discord.

[Patrick]

Discord is super fun. We have a Discord server and we talk about the episodes, we talk about true crime, we talk about anything. There's like a channel for animal pictures and there's like a bunch of stuff or, like, events we'll update you on, like when Drag Bingo is or when we're doing whatever. So it's really fun in there too.

[Julia Bezavale]

They're both fun, highly moderated, very safe, very fun. Click the links in the show notes if you want to hang out with us. So Jimmy's telling us that in the 70s and 80s, it was like Lafayette was a rough place. There were four or five major crime families and doing most of the. The major crimes, it was a lot of burglaries, car thefts, drug dealers, prostitution, and there were numerous unsolved homicides. Now, I want to say Jimmy was a member of law enforcement and he is telling us that these crime families existed in Lafayette at the time.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I don't know if. If he means crime families, like the five families.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

I don't think he does.

[Julia Bezavale]

I don't think so. I think that, like, any town probably has some degree of. Some kind of organized crime.

[Patrick]

Sure. Like in some way. And also, you know, like, there is the argument. It's not that far from Chicago. Chicago is a major mob hub. So, like. Okay, but I. When you. When you hear crime family, you think only one thing. Right. And I don't think he's talking about that.

[Julia Bezavale]

I totally agree.

[Patrick]

Now, the dingbats making the documentary, however.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. Take it as, like, gospel, as, like Mafia Gospel.

[Patrick]

Mafia gospel. Which. What? Mob. But anyway, yeah, as Joey. Did you say you just got served a Joey Merlino video?

[Julia Bezavale]

I just got served a Joey Merlino video. That guy is cool as a fucking cucumber. I would like. He's got an answer for everything. He's 60 if he's a day. I'm saying this purely from the standpoint of somebody who is, like, going to the gym again. His body is perfection. I don't know how a man of that age and that life experience has a body like that.

[Patrick]

And he was just sitting there in a T shirt.

[Julia Bezavale]

Just sitting there. I wasn't even objectifying him. I was just like, bro, drop, drop the Fitness Rout team.

[Patrick]

Sure he would.

[Julia Bezavale]

I bet he would.

[Patrick]

He might have already. He's talking about his. You know, he's out there like.

[Julia Bezavale]

Like this guy. Not, as you were saying, not a care in the world.

[Patrick]

Well, that's what happens. Sunscreen and not a care in the world.

[Julia Bezavale]

Totally.

[Patrick]

You age. Like Paul Rudd or Joe Molino.

[Julia Bezavale]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

So now. Okay, okay, okay. Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

We get a text from Benjamin to the filmmakers.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is the first time that Benjamin has suggested that we meet someone who may know him. I'm very suspicious. I have to follow every lead right now. But nothing prepared me for what I was about to hear.

[Patrick]

I just met someone who says she knows me. Says I was good friends with her husband, Scooter Gavin. Eric, the husband of the film of, like, one of the, you know, Shannon and Eric. That's a good lead. Benjamin says, you guys should really interview that woman. So now we get Alexander, the producer, telling us how suspicious this text is. And I wanna say again, how. How we're not showing dates for anything.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And how this. This particular talking head feels so contrived and staged that they could have recorded any of these talking heads from the filmmakers at any time to connect a couple dots that weren't connected.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Because I don't know where he is.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yep.

[Patrick]

I don't know when this was. This could have been last year. This could have been in 2015 when everything else was filmed.

[Julia Bezavale]

Because in the timeline of the documentary, it seems like they're all still in this trip to Lafayette and, like, Benjamin is texting them from the coffee shop in 2015 or whatever year that was.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Julia Bezavale]

It could have been 2026.

[Patrick]

But it. Right. But we don't. They're not telling us that. So everything. There are a lot of moments, especially like when it. You know, when you're putting it together as you're watching It. You're like, all of this footage is from 2015, right? Yes, but they're not saying that. And I also want to say, like, this whole, like, 10 years in the making.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Is just not true.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

Because you released it 10 years after

[Julia Bezavale]

you filmed everything, after you shot everything.

[Patrick]

And this is where I really. Sorry. This is where I really was thinking about the jinx.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Because these people are all way too involved. Like, Jareki was in it and it

[Julia Bezavale]

worked for many reasons, dragged into it.

[Patrick]

Right. And like, for example, even in the jinx, like, if, for example, they said, like, off camera, let's have this discussion in our office filming it.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Even if they said that, it still felt like it was happening in real time, in the moment.

[Julia Bezavale]

Because the thing about it is, in the jinx, Jareki is in it more and more as it goes, because he never wanted to be a part of the story. He was obsessed with Durst and wanted to make the story. But the story went from a documentary about Robert Durst, which is where it started, to the documentary about, like, getting Robert Durst to do this thing.

[Patrick]

And remember, Robert Durst went to Jarecki.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes, exactly.

[Patrick]

That's why we're here. As we said a million times in our coverage of the second J. Like, but this is not that. And, like, also, the font that they use for the lower thirds is really cheesy.

[Julia Bezavale]

I know.

[Patrick]

It just doesn't look professional.

[Julia Bezavale]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick]

But, like, this is not the jinx, and they really want it to be the jinx.

[Julia Bezavale]

So let's. Is her name Isla? Is that how you say it?

[Patrick]

My name is Isla Solomon. Girl. I did. I went on a rabbit hole. You.

[Julia Bezavale]

You did.

[Patrick]

I go ahead.

[Julia Bezavale]

So, like, so much Isla, according to Isla, Isla and Benjamin randomly ran into each other downtown. She's waving at her old friend. He, like, walks over to say hi to a stranger. So she's like, it was clear he did not know who I was. Isla's in it, hook, line and sinker.

[Patrick]

We're having this conversation in a cemetery. And then it jumps to the conversation between this woman, Isla, and Alex, the producer. The camera person is very far away from them.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

It just feels so fake. It's nighttime. They're perfectly standing under the streetlight. The camera's, like, overly shocked, shaky and

[Julia Bezavale]

unsteady because it's meant to be. Like the Alexander's finally. Like, we're trying to find. We're trying to get dirt on this guy. Like, do you know any bad about him? And, like, it's like, Isla doesn't know they're being filmed. She's like, the rumor is he beat

[Patrick]

up somebody and killed somebody when he was, like, 14 years old. I think he got talked into becoming a hitman. Because if you kill somebody and you're gonna go up for murder if you get caught, you can only get one life sentence. You can only get. Yeah, one electric chair. About 100% sure he used to kill people for a living.

[Julia Bezavale]

I'm about 100% sure that he used to kill people for a living.

[Patrick]

So now we're at home with Isla. What do you want to know about me? I'm just the housewife.

[Julia Bezavale]

Not really Isla. No.

[Patrick]

So here's the thing. Isla says that William Powell. Benjamin, was friends with her husband. They were fishing buddies. And Benjamin spent a lot of time crashing on their couch and eating waffles from 1994 to 2000. I thought he was missing from 1976 to 2004.

[Julia Bezavale]

But see, this is where. What I'm saying, I think this is them trying to get the information as to where he was. But, like, if he was in Lafayette, where Isla lived, which is down the street from where his brother lived, and

[Patrick]

he knew him, right? And the friend. And he's eating all the waffles, right?

[Julia Bezavale]

So, like. And when did he get the. Did the. The amnesia, I guess, happen in 2004? So that's why he doesn't remember her according to his timeline. But, like, if this is true, and we have no way of knowing Isla saying 94 to 2000, he was crashing with me all the time down the street from where his brother lives. But the brother hasn't seen him since 19. 1976, when he filed the missing persons report. What is going on?

[Patrick]

Also, she didn't recognize him when he was all over the news and on the Phil Show.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right, Exactly.

[Patrick]

She made him, she says, hundreds of waffles, Right. He crashed on your couch for. This timeline doesn't make any sense. In the documentary isn't telling us.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right. So is she lying or is she wrong?

[Patrick]

Well, let's. We'll get into. I'm going to tell you a story in a minute. I so humbly ask.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Please go on this detour with me. It will so be worth it.

[Julia Bezavale]

Let's just get there. Isla tells us right now he's got a reputation for not taking any shit from any men. He was a really good guy that would make men disappear if they did bad things to him. And that's Isla's whole story with Ben

[Patrick]

and he also carried weapons, including a hatchet. And I'm like, a hatchet? Like something an axe murderer would carry.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God. God, nothing gets past you, girl. I did. I just wrote it down. Like it was nothing.

[Patrick]

Like.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick]

He keeps mentioning axe murderer. And she says he carried a hatchet.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Okay, okay. So we learn a little something about Isla, and it's insane.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is. This is beyond.

[Patrick]

And this is part of my detour because I found out more about this.

[Julia Bezavale]

Okay, okay, I'm just gonna shut up.

[Patrick]

So Isla spent some time in jail. Why? So glad you asked. Do we have a real spit take? Yes. This is not our space. We're guests here.

[Julia Bezavale]

Just the way you said Ayla spent some time in jail. It's insane. It's insane.

[Patrick]

And it's even more like, make this documentary.

[Julia Bezavale]

I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

[Patrick]

So I. Okay. I did boots on the ground journalism. Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

So according to the news report we see, and I quot Solomon says her

[Julia Bezavale]

husband wanted to be eaten by birds following his death.

[Patrick]

So he wanted me to open the door so the birds from the Rivi would come in. But the birds never came in.

[Julia Bezavale]

They only got as far as the air conditioner. The coroner determined that Gavin's dead body had been there for nine months.

[Patrick]

Her husband wanted to be eaten by birds following his death, so she left his body in the house for nine months, let the doors and windows open for the birds to come in so they could eat him. And she's crying on the news, saying the birds never came in. They only got as far as the air conditioner. Meaning they made a little house in the air conditioner and didn't come in to eat her dead husband, who's on the floor.

[Julia Bezavale]

Meaning she lived in the house with a dead human body for nine months.

[Patrick]

Isla is charged with failure to report a dead body, which is a class A misdemeanor. I looked this up.

[Julia Bezavale]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Again, it's a detour. I promise you. It's like that.

[Julia Bezavale]

I can't. Wait, wait.

[Patrick]

According to patch.com, her husband Gerald died in 2013. She was 55. He was 88. They'd only been married for, like, a year before he died. Isla, he says to her his World War II buddies were eaten by birds on the beaches at Normandy.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is coming from Isla.

[Patrick]

Isla.

[Julia Bezavale]

Okay.

[Patrick]

And he wanted to go out that way, too.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

First of all, can we not fucking desecrate Normandy?

[Julia Bezavale]

Of course.

[Patrick]

Like, are you kidding me?

[Julia Bezavale]

We just had D day. Like, the other day.

[Patrick]

I've watched all of Band of Brothers. I know. I'm married to a bit of a buff. Yes, a history buff. Never once have I heard about the sacred being eaten by birds that want to do to honor their fallen brothers. Number one, he wanted her to carry his body to a hillside where, quote, the birds could strip the flesh from his bones. Is this article. When he died, Isla told the cops that she opened up the door so the birds could come in and eat him. He wanted. This is a quote from Ila. Wanted to see the world again from a bird's eye view. No, that doesn't make any sense. He's not becoming a bird, is he?

[Julia Bezavale]

Even too that the birds flew in as far as the air conditioner. This shit's creepy all the way out.

[Patrick]

They're like, but we can make a. Dorothy.

[Julia Bezavale]

Get out of here, girls.

[Patrick]

We can make a little house in that air conditioner. Looks super cozy in there.

[Julia Bezavale]

As long as we are out the fuckside.

[Patrick]

He was too heavy to carry to a hillside, she said. It gets better. Her lies are. When the cops arrived, she told the cops he was dead. When? For five days.

[Julia Bezavale]

But he'd been dead for six months, for nine months.

[Patrick]

And when officers entered the house, he was under a tarp. I'm sorry, I don't mean to. Yeah, under a tarp with bedding on top. And she sprinkled lime.

[Julia Bezavale]

Well, thank God.

[Patrick]

But people reported him missing. And she'd lie and she's like, he's out of town.

[Julia Bezavale]

Or anybody could go missing in this town. Like, nobody is safe.

[Patrick]

At one point, he's in assisted living, People are reporting him missing, and she's like, no, he's not. And then. Then she lied about this being her first marriage. It was her four. And again, they'd only been married a year. And one of the reasons she lied, she was cashing in all the checks. Social Security, pension, his veteran checks. A total of $20,000 that she eventually had to pay back.

[Julia Bezavale]

What?

[Patrick]

So the plea deal, while she. And this is the quote from the article, while she insists her husband was only dead for five days, I agreed to plead guilty to two misdemeanors. Failure to report a dead body and unlawful disposition of a dead body. When a judge asked her if she understood what she was admitting to, I quote, I'm kind of a dumb person, but, yeah, I guess. She got two months in jail, 100 hours of community service, six months of court supervision.

[Julia Bezavale]

No.

[Patrick]

Lastly, this was in the courts for like a year and a half. Okay. In that time, she was bringing posters to court with the husband's photo on it, like, talking about how he had every right to be eaten by birds. And this right was denied. And she told a reporter that she was looking into shipping and shipping his remains to one of those body ranches in Texas where researchers could feed him to the buzzards. No and no. Girl. We still don't know how he died.

[Julia Bezavale]

We don't know how he died.

[Patrick]

No how he died.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

This woman is clearly unhinged and unreliable.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is the greatest detour we've ever detour. Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

None of it makes it. I don't like.

[Julia Bezavale]

I'm kind of a dumb person, but. Yeah, but sure. This is. Is crazy.

[Patrick]

It's crazy. I mean, she's unreliable and unhinged.

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

The candles smell so good. First of all, I placed my order on Quint. The order shipped that day, like, hours later. And Michael was like, your five candles have arrived. And I was like, thanks, quintessential.

[Julia Bezavale]

Can we also talk about their denim? The denim is soft and comfortable. Their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering when evenings cool down.

[Patrick]

You know, I love the nylon crossbody bag.

[Julia Bezavale]

What's it like being a fashion icon?

[Patrick]

It feels great, actually. I know this sounds like such a line, but it. You can dress it up, you can dress it down. I bring it on every vacation, every outing. It's so easy.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's also so affordable. Everything at Quint is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And they work directly with ethical factories to cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And they tell you, you know what this would be in the real world, right?

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

That's Q U I n c e.com/tco for free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Julia Bezavale]

Quince.com/tco you're going to look so cute.

[Patrick]

You're going to smell so good.

[Julia Bezavale]

At the end of the day, like Eric and Shannon are calling bullshit on Benjamin Connecting them to her. Because their theory is that it's part of his plan. Go talk to this lady.

[Patrick]

Go talk to this lady.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then he's going to use that to discredit you.

[Patrick]

You talked to a crazy lady and now you're accusing me of being a hitman.

[Julia Bezavale]

Benjamin's going to discredit us because we talked to this crazy person. Exactly.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Julia Bezavale]

So, like, they're now setting Benjamin up, but they're convinced that Benjamin is setting them up.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

I still would cared more about the detour if they told us about Isla.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right. That would have been a great.

[Patrick]

Did her four other husbands die? How did this guy die?

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

Is she a girl? Like, that's a far more interesting story to me than anything we learn about here.

[Julia Bezavale]

So they cast a wide net for a more credible witness. We meet Sue Shearer.

[Patrick]

Different sue from before.

[Julia Bezavale]

Different. Different Sue. Bill Powell used to go fishing with her uncle.

[Patrick]

Another fishing thing. That's what Isla just said.

[Julia Bezavale]

Also, like, so I guess that's the connection. Like, what would she have to know about him?

[Patrick]

I think they would, like, people would, like, fishing with Benjamin and never come back.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, she also has a story. She met William Slash Benjamin. And then in the 90s at a night spot. He was wearing a Swiss blade and a gun. But it didn't bother Sue.

[Patrick]

Well, he was good looking. He reminded her of a depressed person. He never smiled, but, God, was he sexy.

[Julia Bezavale]

I mean, he looked in my eye. She goes, he looked in my eyes and I got lost in his eyes.

[Patrick]

The more depressed and violent you are, the more sue thinks you're a goddamn hottie.

[Julia Bezavale]

Alexander, the producer goes, goes, so let's just say, like, you had a romantic relationship.

[Patrick]

She cuts him off. I'm like, still, calm down.

[Julia Bezavale]

I couldn't have staged that.

[Patrick]

I slept with him.

[Julia Bezavale]

So it was. She couldn't wait.

[Patrick]

Like, to share. Okay, but we don't, you know, I'm not going to pry, but fine. If you're here.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Calm yourself.

[Julia Bezavale]

Couldn't wait to tell. She brought her own gun just in case.

[Patrick]

Don't worry. She was safe at the shady motel they boned at because she brought her own gun.

[Julia Bezavale]

Literally. And then like, she's like, but literally. Everybody says he's a hitman. Now we get this on screen text that says, quote, to protect the safety of the participants in this documentary because sue is afraid to talk because of these, like, crime families and crime bosses. To protect the safety of the participants in this documentary. The name of the alleged crime family and the establishments they owned will not be revealed.

[Patrick]

So we get a lot of bleep. So they asked sue about Bleep the crime boss.

[Julia Bezavale]

Do you know the quote crime boss? Yes. He had a rough reputation. He was a rough man. Then she's like looking off camera at her friend, she's like, I gotta be careful what I say. Yes, you do.

[Patrick]

Thank you. She ain't gonna get wrapped up in it. You have to educate me.

[Julia Bezavale]

Wrapped up in what? I don't understand.

[Patrick]

I can't, honey.

[Julia Bezavale]

I'll get killed.

[Patrick]

This town is ran in a circle. And if you ain't in that little circle of them, that family, and you go up against him, somewhere along the line somebody's gonna wind up hurt. Or dad. Yes. Girlfriend, friend, I don't know. Off camera, blurred face, does not want to be involved. She is adamant that sue keeps her goddamn mouth shut because these crime families

[Julia Bezavale]

are real and they'. Right.

[Patrick]

But now we get to Shannon, the producer who's like, benjamin's a genius. He's always thinking 20 steps ahead. I'm like, shannon, are you kidding me with this? First of all, he spelled the name Benjamin wrong. So let's Benjamin, let's cool it with the genius talk number one, two. He's very easily flustered. He's a terrible liar. What are you saying to me?

[Julia Bezavale]

And so, but so now Shannon is bringing in this guy, Chris Voss. He worked on huge cases for the FBI. He was a hostage negotiator. He's here to tell us he had a 27 year history of dealing with the most dangerous people in the world while they were at actively lying and deceiving. And his, what he's good at is figuring out how to get them to tell the truth or how to tell if they're lying. Right? He's terrible. Yeah, he's not good at this. Like, he thinks he's really good. The whole gig is that they're gonna pretend that this guy Chris Voss is a producer on the project. They're gonna sit Ben down for an interview with this producer so that Ben, the actual FBI guy can like suss him out. He stinks. He may as well be wearing a T shirt that says, I'm from the FBI.

[Patrick]

They just want to be the jinx so bad. They're trying to like get a hot jinx moment.

[Julia Bezavale]

There's just not, there's not an ounce of TV producer coming off this guy.

[Patrick]

And also, we learn nothing new from Chris. And anyone who has laid eyes on this guy for two seconds says he's a manipulative Liar. Like, Chris says everything we've already heard a million times. He's cagey, he's twitchy, he's aggressive. He's insufferable. He's a psychopath. I know.

[Julia Bezavale]

We see this conversation between the two of them, and they are just not jiving. Because Chris introduces himself. He's like, what do I call you? A band? Do I? Sorry, you prefer. You prefer William to Bella? We're being formal here now. Are you? Are you being formal? This is confusing to me. All right, Forgive me for joking around about it. Then I apologize. 10 years I've been Benjamin, right. And I, you know, and I'm still trying to get a handle on it. And Ben has an actual moment of like, well, I've been calling myself Benjamin for so long, but my name is really. He's having this emotional moment. Chris is laughing at him like, oh,

[Patrick]

we're gonna be formal now. Chris. Chris comes in, so hot.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then Benjamin's like, well. And then Chris is Apollo. Now he's on his back. Like, Chris is so bad at this.

[Patrick]

They're both bad at this.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's just the thing where, like, I've never seen two. I feel like this happens between straight guys. They're just not jiving. They're like, it's the hug handshake moment.

[Patrick]

Get it over with already. God. But he does say something. Chris says something where I'm like, oh, that's true. He says, if you watch any footage of this guy without any audio, he's seething with anger. And that is true.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick]

But the Doc crew is convinced that Benjamin worked for a very powerful crime family. And they want to piece it together, but they're not going to give us any details, so what's the point? But so much so that it's like the crime boss, the bar, they're doing that thing where it's like they have, like, the family tree.

[Julia Bezavale]

And I'm like, here's the. Here's the thing where I think you and I can come together on this, because I think, like, to go back to what we were saying before, I think using the word crime family is such a bad way of saying it.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Julia Bezavale]

These are the town bullies.

[Patrick]

It's a bunch of criminals.

[Julia Bezavale]

They're just a bunch of criminals. And I think that they're real, and I think that Ben did work for sure. I don't think it's mafia connected. I don't. You know, but, like, I do think that this was Ben's actual job, and I think it is why he ended up disappearing.

[Patrick]

Ben is a bad guy who's involved with bad people, and he crossed the wrong guy and he was on the run.

[Julia Bezavale]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

Simple.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, like, I think that Shannon trying to connect it to crime families, making it. We don't need it to be bigger than what it is. Like, if the point is to find out where this guy was for those 20 years or whatever. Like, we don't need. You don't need to call them, like, the soldiers and the kingpins and the hitman or whatever.

[Patrick]

Like, that's not what this is.

[Julia Bezavale]

No.

[Patrick]

It reminds me of. I know you didn't watch Succession, but there's this big moment, kind of like towards the end of the series where Brian Cox says to his kids who, like, all they want to do is, like, impress him and be, like, the favorite. And he says, I love you, but you are not serious people.

[Julia Bezavale]

I think about that a lot, you

[Patrick]

know, and it's a great scene, and it's very like, whoa. I think Taylor Swift said that that moment inspired the song Father Figure. Even.

[Julia Bezavale]

I love that song.

[Patrick]

Anyway, it's so good, but. Which means that Taylor's seen Mike.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God, that's wild.

[Patrick]

Is that crazy?

[Julia Bezavale]

Did you see Taylor hug Kyl last night of the game?

[Patrick]

Well, first of all, I saw Taylor and Mariska having the best time with the Heim sisters.

[Julia Bezavale]

But here's my. First of all, the fact that we are talking about him again makes me so happy.

[Patrick]

2 out of 3.

[Julia Bezavale]

I love them so much. Yeah, Mariska had a show last night. Like, how was she at the game?

[Patrick]

She's at all the game. She's like.

[Julia Bezavale]

She's at a Broadway show right now.

[Patrick]

Well, she wasn't last night. That's why the game. I saw Kylie look like a deer in headlights, and Taylor was the bigger person, just like kind of Scooter Braun a couple of seats behind.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes. Why?

[Patrick]

What I'm saying is these are not serious people. The filmmakers are serious people. Everyone we're speaking to is not serious people. Like, this is not a real documentary.

[Julia Bezavale]

I agree.

[Patrick]

It's just not.

[Julia Bezavale]

I agree. Like, I'm hesitant to be too hard on them because I think that they. They are trying to do something here. But I think that, like, it. Look, fam. And honestly, Eric and Shannon, if you're listening, which you might be, we've been doing this for 10 years, you know, and the documentaries for us that work the best are the ones where it's. There's transparency and honesty, honesty being genuine. And frankly, when the filmmakers are really not a part of it or part of it sparingly. So I'm not trying to shit on their work. I think they worked really hard on this. But it's not really coming together. It's also too long.

[Patrick]

It's too long. And it's not just their lack of transparency. It's their dishonesty, their blatant.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. And you pointing out that they're intentionally withholding the timeline from us. And if, if it's not intentional, then it's amateurish. And Eric and Shannon, everyone is talking about this documentary. It is very popular. So I'm happy for you for that. But. But it is like we've got a lot, lot of notes.

[Patrick]

Yeah,

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

No.

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[Julia Bezavale]

Exactly. Can I tell you a little bit about the cookware set?

[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

Yeah, that's all great. In addition, my fave is the Wonder Oven Pro.

[Julia Bezavale]

You've been talking about this for years.

[Patrick]

It's an eight in one appliance.

[Julia Bezavale]

I didn't know you could do eight things.

[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Patrick]

They're never crispy in the real big enormous oven. Ever crispy AF in the wonder oven.

[Julia Bezavale]

Also cutting down that preheat time, like that's the worst part. Like you're ready to make dinner, but it's going to take 20 minutes. Not anymore.

[Patrick]

What are you eating? Sogg tots. No crispy tater tots in this house, fam.

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

That's just the example I used, girl.

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

Yeah. They're not like the old timey traditional banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees.

[Julia Bezavale]

No, they've got thousands of fee free ATMs. Why would you pay more to get your own money? I told you about that one time. I got like a $6 fee to take out $20 because I was desperate.

[Patrick]

Yeah, no, we're not doing that.

[Julia Bezavale]

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[Julia Bezavale]

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[Patrick]

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[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, God, here we go.

[Patrick]

The report says that Chico and Ben bailed, you know, fled like thieves in the night, literally took license plates off the car. Probably because it was stolen.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And were never seen again. Obviously they were on the run, which everyone has said 10,000 times.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

So instead of being like, let's find out how this guy, who this guy is, Shannon is like, well, if they were together, they were capos for the crime boss. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[Julia Bezavale]

Okay. And I couldn't agree more. Like, this is where we meet up a bunch of silly old men that, like, this documentary is trying to make look like crime kingpins. And it is ridiculous except for one. One of them actually is a really bad guy.

[Patrick]

He's a rapist and a murderer.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. But so like, Chico is here, and I think that he's here under the pretense of, like, I'm just gonna like, wow, they found my friend that's been missing for 30 years. I'm here to, like, Talk about it. The vibe is so off cuz Chico's there to like sort of laugh and have fun and be like, celebrate.

[Patrick]

Talk about how drunk they were all the time.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes. And like, but the, but the, the documentary is like, so we're going to find out what happened with that car and why did you. What happened?

[Patrick]

And they have all this ominous music that doesn't make sense with what we're seeing. Like they want us to think this is nefarious. And I'm like, they were drunk in the 70s. Who wasn't?

[Julia Bezavale]

But that's exactly it because Chico was with Benjamin the night that he ditched the car and disappeared, essentially.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Julia Bezavale]

Chico's just like, we had a lot of fun. We were pretty young and dumb and, and did some stupid things. But we were both pretty honest folks.

[Patrick]

Folks.

[Julia Bezavale]

I think what was really happening in that period though is that we were starting to drink more. We were having fun and we were at a bar and we decided we wanted to go to Colorado. And it was 2 in the morning, so we like went and got our stuff and we drove to Colorado.

[Patrick]

Drunkenly drove to Colorado.

[Julia Bezavale]

And that's what happened.

[Patrick]

And then they never spoke since 1976. And guess what? We don't know about what happened in Colorado or why they stopped speaking because nobody is asking him that.

[Julia Bezavale]

The cops never questioned Chico about William Slash Benjamin's disappearance because why would they?

[Patrick]

Right? And then they like kind of want to like, they want this to be a bombshell where like Chico like forgot that the cops actually did speak to him or whatever.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, and I'm even confused about what happened because I guess Chico and Benjamin came back from Colorado. This is where they abandoned the car. And then that is when Benjamin goes missing, I guess.

[Patrick]

But that's not spelled out in any way.

[Julia Bezavale]

Really isn't spelled out.

[Patrick]

And it's like you got. They're like, nothing makes any sense. And I'm like, you guys, part that is your fault because you're not giving us a timeline. And two, they were hammered all the time and it was 50 years ago and nobody cares when.

[Julia Bezavale]

They're also trying to connect Chico to this place that they're calling the Ditch. Like what we've been getting sprinkled throughout is other bodies that have been found in certain areas in Indiana. And one of them is the ditch. And Chico says that that happened to also be a place that Benjamin liked to go. So a place where a body was found was also a place that Benjamin liked to go. So now the documentary is trying to. To Connect potentially Benjamin slash William to the body that was found there.

[Patrick]

And then another, like, wannabe jinx moment is that they're now going to surprise Benjamin with Chico to see how he reacts. And the look on this derp's face. I'm like, shannon, this is the genius.

[Julia Bezavale]

The funny kid is. This was one of those moments where I was like. Because I was watching Benjamin's face when Chico walked in. Now, we don't really know the relationship between Chico and Benjamin. Like, were they best friends or were they just drinking buddies who took a trip to Colorado together once? We don't.

[Patrick]

Still don't know if they. If they stop speaking because of drama or because this guy went missing. That is not clear.

[Julia Bezavale]

We don't know how long they knew each other when they were hanging out in the 70s. Ask these questions because legitimately, when Chico walked in, I don't think Benjamin recognized him.

[Patrick]

Oh, I thought he was kind of like. Like, I thought he did that thing that he's done a million times where it's like, I know who this person is, but I have to act like I don't.

[Julia Bezavale]

I gotta tell you, I was looking for a flinch. Especially because he didn't know Chico was coming. Now, once again, we don't know how close they were. We don't know if they were best friends or just casual. Like, if I. If somebody were to walk into this room that I hadn't seen in 30 years, that I kind of hung out with in high school or whatever, I might not recognize them. I wouldn't. Like. So Benjamin does not. He doesn't do that thing where he's like, oh, my God, my best friend that I've thought about saying, he does not flinch.

[Patrick]

I thought I did, but I absolutely could have been biased in this moment.

[Julia Bezavale]

I really looked for, like, he looks up at him, and in my opinion, Chico does not register to him.

[Patrick]

Now, Shannon.

[Julia Bezavale]

Shannon, disagree. Couldn't disagree more.

[Patrick]

Benjamin is terrified that we brought Chico. When we confronted him, he turns white. He's ashen.

[Julia Bezavale]

He turned white. He was stone cold. Like, it seemed to me like he did not recognize.

[Patrick]

They are begging. They're trying to manufacture these bombshells that don't exist. And that is also bad documentary.

[Julia Bezavale]

And I just think it could be. I don't think that this guy had amnesia. I just think that maybe Chico and this guy weren't that close.

[Patrick]

Well, this guy, again, as we know, is also a dick, because now we have some more on prompt racism from him.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

And he's like, oh, yeah. I. They're trying to, like, reminisce or, like, find where, you know, memories or whatever. And he and Benjamin's like, oh, I remember White County. You know why it's called that?

[Julia Bezavale]

Don't.

[Patrick]

Because they wouldn't allow the blacks in. And then he smirks and, like, tries. He, like, holds for a reaction, and Chico does not give him one. And I'm like, we gotta stop with this casual racism, you asshole.

[Julia Bezavale]

And it's also just like. So Chico's like, oh, yeah. The story I just told him was how we were, like, drinking that night in Indiana, decided to go to Colorado, came back in, ditched the car. Cut to Shannon. He's telling him what to say. He's telling them what we know. And I'm like, girl, I just don't think it's that deep. And if it is, we just don't know that. Because the thing that. That we haven't said is that Chico and Benjamin don't know they're being recorded, right? So, like, if they were like, oh, shit, we got to get our story straight. That would be the story. They would. There's no reason for them not to just be speaking plainly to each other.

[Patrick]

Also, it's the story that Shannon told Chico.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right? Exactly.

[Patrick]

And it's all in the missing person.

[Julia Bezavale]

In fairness, this does seem to be the real story. But even Chico didn't remember it.

[Patrick]

Yeah, Chic Shannon was like, this is what you did. And he's like, okay, I was drunk, and it was 50 years ago, girl.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, like, we took the license plates off the cars because we were kids and we didn't want to get caught.

[Patrick]

And then Shannon's like, oh, my God, he's telling the story I just told him. And I'm like, girl, what?

[Julia Bezavale]

I know there's nothing here, girl. I'm telling you, this was the episode I had a really hard time with. I was like, oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, we're meandering. Yeah, just like the brother and him meandering all over Indiana after the brother was like, you got to get right with your creator. You killed somebody. And he's like, let's go to the anti. Let's go antiquing, right, Fuhrman. We don't have time.

[Julia Bezavale]

And what year are we in?

[Patrick]

So. 2015. So now we learn about. About George Keck. Boo.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. So according to Serious fan. Pay attention to this.

[Patrick]

Very, very. But according to Shannon is working for the big bad crime boss, right? And I'm like, I think he's just a bad guy, right?

[Julia Bezavale]

So George Keck is here, and, like, here's my big note. I'm like, like all of these people, he's just out living his life. He still lives in the same town. Like, he's not hiding from anybody. He's just, like, right there. When Shannon and Eric roll up on

[Patrick]

his house and they do that, they give us this, like, image of, like, the soldiers. Chico Getz, William Powell, George KE to you guys. And then the lower third for George Keck is William Powell, associate. Says who?

[Julia Bezavale]

But also, like, what? The truth of it is, William and George worked together at Purdue as jan. Janitors. Did they also maybe work for some of the criminals in town? Five. But, like, the actual connection between the two of them that we can prove is that they work together at Purdue. They knew each other.

[Patrick]

Mountain out of a molehill. And also, like, Shannon, you used to be a prosecutor. No.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

Like, you're really playing fast and loose with all these things you can prove. Like, you're really just really irresponsible.

[Julia Bezavale]

And so they think that George Keck is going to be the key to why did Benjamin leave town.

[Patrick]

Right?

[Julia Bezavale]

And he's like, I don't know. I think he got into some trouble and he just wanted to get out of here.

[Patrick]

Right? George is like, I don't really know what you want from me. And then he eventually, like, references the movie Zodiac, and he's like, I don't know anything, and if I did, I certainly wouldn't tell you.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right? And they do that thing again where they pull Keck aside. They're like, this is the shit that drives me crazy, because Chris, the FBI guy, and we're going to see this from the other FBI guy. Ken. Is that Ken? They are all in this old man's face being like, you know, more. You know, more. You're not telling. You're the key to this whole thing. Like, just in this guy's face. And it, like. And it. To me, it just felt like, oh, God, we need something.

[Patrick]

They're trying to force a bombshell.

[Julia Bezavale]

We need a right. Like, that's really what it feels like.

[Patrick]

And. And it's like. And then, like, the big bombshell is like, oh, well, you know, he still has a lot of connections around. Yeah.

[Julia Bezavale]

So I. I really couldn't. Tell me off the record. You do something to him, it may not happen today or tomorrow, next week, next month, he don't get even.

[Patrick]

One way or another, he's going to get revenge. It might be today, it might be tomorrow, it might be 10 years from now. But like, he's a shitty guy. And they're like, aha. And I'm like, this is what every single person has been saying since the beginning. It's a bombshell.

[Julia Bezavale]

If we boil this down to its most basic element. It's like this guy has been missing for 30 years. He resurfaced in 2004 under a different name, pretended for 10 years to be this other person. Why? You know what I mean? Like, like what they're saying is that, like, we know that he did crazy crime, but all of those other crimes, the statute of limitations would be up by now. The only thing that would he like, that would make this worth it would be if he had committed murder.

[Patrick]

Right. Which they are banking on every. All the rumors that I heard he was a hitman.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

That's really what they're going on.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Essentially, because no one will say anything because now we're back with sue, the one who thinks violent, oppressed guys are super hot.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

She is not going to say anything for fear of getting killed. But they say Chico's name to her and she like freezes and starts to cry.

[Julia Bezavale]

And here's the thing, like, I think, like it's gotten so big in the documentary, I think that crime in this Lafayette town is real. And I think that like Chico, George Keck, Benjamin, I think they were all criminals. And I think that they were. There were probably criminals that were above them that they did work for. And you can convince me that Benjamin slash William killed somebody for one of the higher up criminals.

[Patrick]

Sure.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's just like, I think it's just that simple, you know?

[Patrick]

Yeah, it is. Now, like you were saying before, like, all the FBI guys are just coming in way too hot. Chico and Ken are in the woods in this, like, area. Right. That you mentioned earlier. FBI Ken is berating Chico, raiding him. And Chico's finally like, okay, well, if Benjamin did anything, this would be a great place to hide a body. And there was someone who was murdered at Purdue when he was working there.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And FBI Ken is like, chico, chica.

[Julia Bezavale]

You understand how serious this is? I understand if we had to get cadaver dogs, if we had to dig this place up. Right. Find something, guess where the FBI and

[Patrick]

the police are going to start?

[Julia Bezavale]

You.

[Patrick]

You know who's going down for it? You. Because you told us. And I'm like, okay. But you also, like, threatened him to do it.

[Julia Bezavale]

And this is the thing, is that like, Ken is not here in an actual law enforcement capacity. He's like a fucking producer. On the. On the documentary. This is how false confessions happen.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Julia Bezavale]

I'm in your face. I'm telling you, if you don't tell me something I want to hear, we're coming for you next. And so, like, these people are starting to just make shit up.

[Patrick]

And I'm not trying to defend criminals. We will get back to George Keck in a minute. But, like, Chico is even like, no need for the attitude. Attitude, Ken, I was a shitty guy. I did shitty things. I am not a rapist. I am not a murderer.

[Julia Bezavale]

And literally, Ken is like, I don't fucking believe you. Like, looking at him in his face, calling him a rapist and a murderer.

[Patrick]

And he's like, I did a lot of things. I didn't do that. And like, I'm not budging.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right?

[Patrick]

So this episode ends with a phone call. And it's the cr. The crime. The. The lower third. Is that cheesy font, crime boss's former family member.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And they apparently called Benjamin the bouncer. And Benjamin was this crime boss's right hand man. Alleged is what we're told. And this person says, you know, you gotta back off. You don't know what these people are capable of. This is not gonna end well for you. End of episode three, Episode four, the man who Knew Too Much.

[Julia Bezavale]

So, okay, you gotta tell them where we are.

[Patrick]

We get now, they were at the start of episode four. They have not mentioned that they are the Natalia Grace people.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

They have not said it at all.

[Julia Bezavale]

Because the first time I watched this, when I got this on screen text, I was like, where the fuck did that come from?

[Patrick]

She was like, oh, hot stakes. I was like, oh. She's like, we make. We're like prolific. We make a ton of documentaries. And I was. They're not naming any. I wanted to see like, what they did. Yeah, they do like Amish. They do like really? Cheese. Oh, fucking shit. And they and Natalia. Guys,

[Julia Bezavale]

girl. Home Chef is back. We just got our box today. I cannot wait to go home and see what seems making for dinner.

[Patrick]

Here's the thing. People really love this.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Okay. Home Chef is rated number one by users of other meal kits for quality, convenience, value, taste and recipes.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah, they make cooking simple, fam. It's fresh food delivered, easy recipes to follow and meals that actually taste great. Can I tell you? We did one of the oven ready ones. So that's where, like all you got to really do is throw it in a tin and then put it in your oven and they give you the tin and they give you the tin. This one came with mashed potatoes. It was like a chicken thing with mashed potatoes. The mashed potatoes were pre made.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

We just didn't heat them up. And I'm like, this is going to be gross. Like pre made mashed potatoes. They were literally the. I was licking the pan at the end.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Or you can cook it in 30 minutes.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Or you can get microwavable meals, lunches, all that stuff.

[Julia Bezavale]

These are meals that even I can cook. And they taste like restaurant quality.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So like no long shopping lists, no company complicated prep, very easy cleanup.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. And they've got all different kinds of meals. They've got the calorie conscious meals. They even have GLP1 friendly meals. Yeah. So fam. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for life.

[Patrick]

Go to homechef.com TCO that's homechef.com TCO

[Julia Bezavale]

for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life.

[Patrick]

Home chef.com TCO must be an active subscriber to receive the free dessert. They're running a business here, of course,

[Julia Bezavale]

but like eat the dessert while you're putting the stuff away. As soon as the box comes, obviously.

[Patrick]

So then the episode four opens. On screen text. Same apartment building that Natalia Grace lived in is where Benjamin is now living. And I'm like, as soon as you

[Julia Bezavale]

see it, you can't unsee it.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, oh, this is where those assholes left her.

[Julia Bezavale]

When she was in for herself, literally nine years old, they moved her into this apartment complex.

[Patrick]

Benjamin is moving in.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

While we watch this. And I'm like, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa,

[Julia Bezavale]

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Patrick]

Is this a coincidence? Like, is this their fourth poorly made documentary that is taking place almost entirely in Lafayette, Indiana?

[Julia Bezavale]

Well, my thing is, like, I bet they know people at the apartment. I bet that, like when Benjamin was moving from Florida because his brother down there wanted nothing to do with him, they were like, well, if you're moving to Lafayette, we know people there.

[Patrick]

But like, how do they have access to that apartment? And it makes you think, what did they know in the other documentary with Natalia Grace?

[Julia Bezavale]

Meaning what?

[Patrick]

Like, how is that? Like, like, what are the odds that it's a pure coincidence?

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah, that's true.

[Patrick]

And then if it's not a coincidence, what is the connection to this apartment?

[Julia Bezavale]

I just looked it up. So he's moving in in 2016 and they don't that.

[Patrick]

But you looked at.

[Julia Bezavale]

I just looked it Up. Natalia Grace lived in that complex three years before that in 2013.

[Patrick]

That's weird.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

It's weird that we don't know that. It's weird that they're not explaining their connection.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Why is he living in this apartment building?

[Julia Bezavale]

That is weird. I mean, I wonder, like, what. Right? That is. Yeah.

[Patrick]

It gets shadier and shadier, and it gets more and more unethical as we go.

[Julia Bezavale]

I mean, it could just be that, like, having spent so much time in Lafayette on the Natalia Grace case. She heard of this case or something, but, like, here.

[Patrick]

Like, here's a shitty apartment building.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

With, like, a bunch of shady characters that you should live in.

[Julia Bezavale]

And I feel like they only added that lower third because they're like, people are going to recognize this. We have to, like, disclose it.

[Patrick]

But really disclose it then, because that leads to a lot more questions, and it makes me feel like something more nefarious is going on. And if it's not, I'd like to know.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And why aren't you telling us? Why? They're keeping a lot of things from us deliberately, which is weird, because they're

[Julia Bezavale]

so present in the documentary.

[Patrick]

But. But that's why I'm like, everything's fake.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Every conversation's fake, every phone calls fake or recreated. And, like, why wouldn't you purposely tell us the timeline? Because, like, the first thing everyone does about anything, whether you're solving a crime or, like, trying to tell a story, you get the timeline.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick]

Something like this, where there's so many moving parts and so many lies and so many lives and so many things. Like, you should want your audience to be right there along with you, so maybe they could help if you need their help or something.

[Julia Bezavale]

At the end of the day, I really do think it's just kind of sloppy.

[Patrick]

It is.

[Julia Bezavale]

I don't even think there's, like, nefarious intention. I think it's just kind of sloppy. Yeah.

[Patrick]

But now Chico has removed himself from the narrative because FBI Ken came in way too hot.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is the thing they call Chico, and they're like, hey, girl, ready to meet us up in Lafayette? And he's like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Julia Bezavale]

And I'm like, okay, why are you shocked that after your FBI guy got in his face and called him a rapist and a fudgeing murderer in the middle of the woods, that he doesn't want to work with you? And Chico will say, my wife is afraid of Benjamin, and, like, my wife is afraid that he's going to find us in the middle of the night and kill us or whatever. And I'm like, I don't know, girl, I think you just don't want anything to do with this. And like that. No, it's a complete sentence.

[Patrick]

Well, and I would think like, okay, if I'm the wife, I could very easily see her being like, they're accusing you of rape and murder. He's probably a rapist and a murderer. Like if, if what we're learning about, like if this guy has all these connections, like we're out.

[Julia Bezavale]

I can totally do that 100%.

[Patrick]

Because you know, Shannon is screaming at the top of her lungs that he's in bed with the crime boss and he's the right hand man.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

So if you're hearing that, the way she's presenting to everyone that on the top, at the top of her lungs, I'm telling Mike, get the fuck out of there.

[Julia Bezavale]

100%.

[Patrick]

So Jonathan eager is here. Okay. We have to stop on this moment too. He's a lieutenant and he's Shar is the cold case file with Shannon. Yeah, and FBI, Ken, because we're about to learn about a woman named Christine Kozak.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

But first Shannon reaches into the box, helps herself to the evidence, pulls out a photo without looking for it, knows exactly where she is and holds it up to the camera with this very weird Moira Rose looking face. She just goes. And I'm like way too involved.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Let the. Why are you taking over the cold case? Let the guy tell you about. Because I really care about Chris. Christine Kozak.

[Julia Bezavale]

No, me too. And like why are you allowed to touch the evidence? That doesn't feel right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, Shannon girl, it's too much.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's too much.

[Patrick]

So let's really learn about Christine Kozak.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. So Christine Kozik was at student Purdue University. She was murdered in 1977. This was when George Keck and William Power were both janitors there.

[Patrick]

Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. He went missing. The missing person's report is from 1976. You're telling me he went missing for a year and is now back at Purdue in 1977 for a janitor and then bailed again.

[Julia Bezavale]

Wait, is that right?

[Patrick]

1976 is the missing persons report.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

We are just told right. She's murdered in May of 1977.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then George Keck and William Power were both janitors at Purdue when Christine Koziak went missing.

[Patrick]

That would mean he the missing persons Report was filed in 1976. He came back, worked as a janitor for a year, and then bailed again. This everything is bullshit. And either they're idiots and didn't catch it.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

This is really fucking shady and shitty.

[Julia Bezavale]

That.

[Patrick]

Right?

[Julia Bezavale]

Crazy.

[Patrick]

That doesn't make any sense. And then he, like, showed up again in the late 90s with Isla and ate all her waffles.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right, Right.

[Patrick]

And then went on a date with Sue. When the fuck was that?

[Julia Bezavale]

Right in Lafayette, down the street from his brother.

[Patrick]

What are we doing here?

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God. Okay, so we learn that Christine Koziak had gone out the night that she disappeared with friends to a bar called the Caboose. She had some drinks. We learned that her last words were, isn't it strange that you say, see you tomorrow to your friends when you know you're not going to.

[Patrick]

Police report. Christine's body was found in Wea Creek, a wooded area that was just two miles from the bar. George Keck was the prime suspect in the Kozik homicide. He's also a sex offender. He had had a lot of crimes against women.

[Julia Bezavale]

He's also a sex offender.

[Patrick]

Yeah. This guy, like, he was like, this

[Julia Bezavale]

quirky old man two seconds ago. And now we learned that he's, like, a potential murderer and a definite sex offender defender.

[Patrick]

Right. He. This guy sucks. And so his wife told police.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

That the night Christine went missing, George, the pedophile and probably murderer, came home covered in blood, covered in defensive wounds, and he burned all of his clothes.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, like, the wife goes on to say that he was extremely abusive to her, too. He would beat her. He once shot her in the leg, stabbed her in the back. He was very, very abusive.

[Patrick]

And Shannon gives us some real attitude here, because George was let go because, as I understand it, his wife was too scared to testify, against which happens all the time. Yes. Shannon comes in with a lot of attitude, saying it's because of spousal privilege. And the wife refused to testify. And I'm like, I'm not buying that. I think it's.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, no. She was absolutely too scared.

[Patrick]

And I think it's rude because she is not protecting any of them. She talks to the police a lot. She talks about Benjamin. She talks about Chico. She says they were all bad guys. None of them respected women. They did a lot of robberies and a lot of home invasions. And she said to the cops, I wouldn't believe Benjamin Powell at all.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

You know William Powell at all, this Benjamin guy. So don't. Please don't get shitty. Shannon.

[Julia Bezavale]

We just saw this in the one that we did the other day. We see this all the time where, like, women will come forward and. And, like, and be honest with the police, but then refuse to testify because they're afraid for their own lives.

[Patrick]

And again, she's not protecting anybody and she's not holding back. So please don't come with the attitude, Shannon. I don't. I resent that.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So we go back to George Keck again.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Okay. And now he's saying, you know, the crime boss had a bar. It was a front for a lot of stuff. That was where all the bad guys hung out.

[Julia Bezavale]

And he says because they keep pushing him. Like, why did he flee to Colorado? He fled for of. According to Keck, he fled to Colorado for doing bad stuff. He was stealing cars and selling parts off of them. Yeah. What about Chico? Was he in on that, too?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Julia Bezavale]

So why did Powell and Chico leave? Were they, like, involved in something? Well, I heard that he's popped a cap or two that Powell killed. See, there was a lady killed in Murdoch Park. So, like, some people are saying he's a hitman. This guy's like, he was stealing parts from cars, from these crimes bosses. Like, people are reaching for answers because these people are so intensely demanding. Them. Yeah, because, like, the story here should be Keck like, fudge. Benjamin.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Julia Bezavale]

Who cares at this point?

[Patrick]

Give me a 42 minute episode on Isla.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

In here. She could do Isla. And we, you know, let's really get Benjamin. Ken, who's a rapist and a murderer,

[Julia Bezavale]

and we're like, not done with him.

[Patrick]

Well, all right, so now this we have to slow down on to the anonymous caller. The same one, remember the very top of this thing, it starts with a call, this anonymous caller threatening their kids. Shannon's hysterical. She's related to the crime boss. You better stop what you're doing. Blah, blah, blah. She calls FBI. Ken, bad news, Ken. I told the crime boss that you were onto them. And I tried to use reverse psychology, but it didn't work for some reason. And now he wants to kill me and me and my $400,000 in cash. We are skipping town.

[Julia Bezavale]

She literally. She's sobbing. She's like, I've got $400,000 and I'm just getting out of. I was like, $400,000.

[Patrick]

We put a pin in that. Also have no idea when that phone call happened, what year. We have no idea. Now we're back to George Keck again. And this time Shannon's gonna do It. She's amazing at it.

[Julia Bezavale]

She says, I mean, this is wild.

[Patrick]

She shows up in a shirt covered in coffee stains.

[Julia Bezavale]

She's just like.

[Patrick]

And she does this, like, overly cheery, bubbly, infantilized. You gotta help me out, George. You just gotta. And it works.

[Julia Bezavale]

It does.

[Patrick]

It works. It's insufferable. It's. It's painful to listen to. It's very. She's infantilizing herself. But this guy's a fucking pedophile.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. Like, he just comes right out and starts talking to her and, like, basically, she's trying to get information on Benjamin, but, like, then wanders to the Christine Koziak case and, like, gets George Keck to tell her what he heard from the murderer actually happened.

[Patrick]

Also, he's being secretly recorded. He doesn't know he's being recorded.

[Julia Bezavale]

He doesn't know he's being recorded.

[Patrick]

So George eventually says, the reason I

[Julia Bezavale]

think he left was because they were after him at the time.

[Patrick]

Who was after him?

[Julia Bezavale]

Some of the big boys. The real big boys from out of Chicago. And they was gonna kill him.

[Patrick]

Benjamin skipped town because the Chicago mob was after him and they were coming to kill him.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

And then George Keck says, here's the thing about Christine Kozik. She was killed accidentally. Not by Benjamin. Yeah, not by George. But what happened is some guy picked Christine up at the bar. She was very drunk. He got her out to the creek. The guy tries to sexually assault her. She gets out of the car, for some reason, she swung at him. Shut up, you fucking asshole sex offender. You know exactly why the guy fought back, right? Christine fell, hit her head and died. Accidentally hit her head on a rock.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then he's like, I swear to God, it wasn't me. The person who did this told me what happened, but I cannot tell you who it was.

[Patrick]

First of all, that's still murder. Second of all, George, thanks for the confession.

[Julia Bezavale]

Like, this is 1% hundred. 100%, George.

[Patrick]

Right? So Shannon is, like, getting spooked by this conversation. She goes to get FBI Ken, but she tells George that it's her dad, right, who's just hanging out. And so George continues and repeats what we already know. Benjamin's a bad guy, he was violent, he had a gun, he had a hit list, blah, blah, blah. And then he says, oh, one night, Benjamin got in a fight with someone in the Chicago mob, and Benjamin killed the Chicago mob guy, and that's why he skipped town.

[Julia Bezavale]

And, like, now, here's the thing, though, the detail there is that you're Saying.

[Patrick]

Saying that it was raped. Dang. Rape or something like that. And that's why Bill shot. I'm saying.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes. Did he shoot that guy? Did he shoot that guy on behalf of. Yeah, for sure.

[Patrick]

That. Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

Benjamin was hired by the. The Lafayette crime boss leader because the man that Benjamin eventually shoots and kills raped his daughter.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I'll look the other way on that one.

[Julia Bezavale]

If that's true, 100, there's no reason to go missing for 30 fucking years when you kill a rapist.

[Patrick]

Right. And also, like, that's why. I mean, it's not like a crime family. Crime family. As we hear it, these are just a bunch of bad guys. Because the mob.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Would like, not try to protect the rapist.

[Julia Bezavale]

But, like, this is the thing. Like, that is going to end up being the reason the killing the rapist is going to be what we are told is the reason that Benjamin went missing for three, 30 years.

[Patrick]

No.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right?

[Patrick]

No. So Shannon and company take this information to Jonathan the cop, and they tell him all of this. And Jonathan the cop was like, yeah, no, this wasn't a friend. George killed Christine Kozak and Shannon. This is when Shannon's like, oh, no, no, no. Totally. That's definitely what I thought, too.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's fun.

[Patrick]

I had that, too.

[Julia Bezavale]

It is funny, though, because, like, Sheriff really is watching George Keck, like, make this confession. And, like, we're told time and time again, like, this is worth reopening the case. We never find out if that happens.

[Patrick]

Well, okay. Of course, you know, they should have told us, but they didn't.

[Julia Bezavale]

They didn't.

[Patrick]

So anyway, Jonathan the cop wants the docum crew to get George Keck's DNA.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

It's like, we have one day. The clock is ticking. And I'm like, why? Unclear on why. Everyone, the world will explode in 24 hours if this doesn't happen.

[Julia Bezavale]

And Boyd, now, look, there's nothing an old man likes more than getting taken out for lunch. So, 5, 6, 7, 8, let's take him to Mongolian barbecue.

[Patrick]

And there's a method to the madness. There is not saying Mongolian barbecue.

[Julia Bezavale]

George Keck doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who just wants to, like, experiment with Mongolian barbecue. You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Here's the deal. We took heck to a monster Mongolian barbecue because basically how it works is we go up for seconds here to George, it helps us then get in in DNA, test his utensils and straw. It's a buffet.

[Julia Bezavale]

It's a buffet.

[Patrick]

So the plan is when George goes up for seconds that they're assuming he's gonna have.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

They're gonna steal his straw and utensils. Shannon, a former prosecutor, he gets up, takes everything with her bare hands, takes the straw, wraps it in a greasy napkin.

[Julia Bezavale]

She's doing it like it's the most

[Patrick]

staged bullshit thing I've ever seen. This is not how you collect DNA. If you want it to be reliable.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

This is not even admissible. Wasn't she a lawyer?

[Julia Bezavale]

But they also then get kicked out because they've been talking. They're so all over the place. They've been talking about all of the other sides. So, like, the table next to them gets spooked. They're like, can you get these fucking weirdos out of here? We see the manager kick them out. They go to Panera, right?

[Patrick]

They have to pay the bill first. So they go to Panera. And I'm like, is FBI Ken still pretending to be Shannon's dad and asking all of these pointed questions? That rapist George Keck is not catching on.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right?

[Patrick]

Wow. Shannon's dad really knows his shit. So, like, they're not putting this together. So just real quick, before we get into the. More DNA collection, if you can even call it that, randomly in these four episodes, there's been mention of a microwave cookbook, which is like meals that you cook in the microwave.

[Julia Bezavale]

Like, the craziest thing, that there's a cookbook.

[Patrick]

So someone stole this book from Benjamin.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And he really, really, really, really, really wants it back. And the point. To the point where he had someone, like, break into someone else's house to get it back. And George is like, oh, I'll tell you why that is.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right?

[Patrick]

Because that's where his kill list was. It's all in code, but it's in the microwave cookbook.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right?

[Patrick]

So then Shannon, I guess George goes to the bathroom, manhandles Panera cup with her bare hands, takes the straw, drops it in the greasy pan, and it's like, oh, this is how I preserve DNA. This is how you preserve the DNA. And I'm like, you were a criminal prosecutor. You must know that. This is not how I feel like I've been gaslit for all four episodes.

[Julia Bezavale]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick]

She storms into the cops and she's like, hi, I have the evidence. I got it. It was so easy to get A plus gold star for me.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then they have to take her DNA because she's contaminated everything. We never find out what happens with George Keck.

[Patrick]

She knows that there's not a Goddamn possibility in the world that is going to come from this. She has to know that we're not

[Julia Bezavale]

even told that there was DNA preserved from the crime scene. This crime happened in 1977. They weren't preserving DNA back then.

[Patrick]

Anything, right? This is so stupid.

[Julia Bezavale]

No one, no one tells us that there's DNA to even compare it to.

[Patrick]

Also at one point, this is really where I'm like, fuck you, Shannon. She is on the phone with Christina, the rape and murder victim's 94 year old mother. I need to tell you something. The man that we killed, your daughter, I promise that we're gonna try our hardest to catch him. Okay? I just want you to know that your daughter, she went down fighting. It is reprehensible that she did this. Just know that your daughter fought you.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

How dare you say you don't know anything about anything. You think you're greasy ass hands from Mongolian barbecue and Panera and.

[Julia Bezavale]

But also, once again, I was watching for it. The second time. We never hear the sheriff tell us that there's DNA. They weren't collecting DNA in 1977.

[Patrick]

And so now we sit down with this anonymous caller with the failed reverse psychology. Yeah, this is the one who threatened Shannon kids. But now it's a non issue. Yeah, Right. So again, letting us know when all these conversations happen would have been helpful. But the caller is crying, she's terrified. This is so scary. You have no idea. My life's been threatened before. I moved halfway across the country to get away and now I'm talking to the documentary. I'm like, girl, is there a gun to your head? Why are you here? Like just, just save your life and stay quiet.

[Julia Bezavale]

The thing that, that she said, she' trying to like tie it all up in a tidy bow because she's saying, look, Benjamin slash William killed that guy from Chicago because he raped a crime boss's daughter. He immediately disappeared and was on that crime boss's payroll for those 30 years that he was missing. And then in 2004, that crime boss died. His kids didn't want to pay him anymore, so he needed to reenter the world in a way that he would be seen as safe to the mafia. So he shows up at the Burger King claiming amnesia, telling the mafia or whatever, the crime boss family that he's safe because he doesn't remember anything. Anyway, that's the story. Like neatly tied up in a bow.

[Patrick]

So if you believe it, the crime boss is bankrolling him from 1976 for 30 years to 2004 while he's taking detours, coming back and working as a janitor. Coming back, eating waffles with Isla. And, like, this just is not. This is not. Like, no. Like, no. And there's no trace of money transfers anywhere. How is he getting money?

[Julia Bezavale]

Wait, he didn't have a bank account.

[Patrick]

Like, he's a con man. He ripped off the wrong people, and he fled. And these people are all falling for it and trying to make it something bigger than it is.

[Julia Bezavale]

My. My question about all of that, though, is, like, how did he stay hidden for 30 years? Like, how? Or did he. I mean, I guess maybe he did.

[Patrick]

I don't think he did.

[Julia Bezavale]

He was just out there living his life as William Powell. But then why do the stunt at burger king in 2004?

[Patrick]

I think it all got a lot bigger when that idiot film student came along. And so they started about everything.

[Julia Bezavale]

I guess so. But I just don't know why. I don't know why he. If he was out there living as. As. As William Powell, which it seems like he was. Or not. Like, I just don't understand.

[Patrick]

You know, I think a con man's going to con man, and I think he thought he could probably get something out of it. And, you know, I don't really think, like, I don't think any of this is really that deep, except for, like, getting to the bottom of the murder of Christina Kozak.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right? Yeah.

[Patrick]

George Keck absolutely did it.

[Julia Bezavale]

And then we end where we started, which is. Oh, God, What?

[Patrick]

And it's like, thanks to my hard work, my work and my. The mystery of Benjamin Kyle has been solved. And now it's time to take a vacation to Newport, Rhode Island. And I'm like, has it?

[Julia Bezavale]

I know.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Julia Bezavale]

And they're not in Newport, like, two minutes before Ken. FBI. Ken calls and is like, this is where we're back to the beginning.

[Patrick]

And this is a very important thing, because the way this call has been presented for four episodes up until this moment is that the caller is threatening Shannon's kids and threatening the nanny. What is actually happening is the caller who has spoken to the documentary and cooperated. Cooperated with them, is giving them a warning that the supposed bad guys know and they're not happy, and you should be safer with your kids. So, of course, that is scary. But, like, even if that were true, don't manipulate the truth.

[Julia Bezavale]

And she's also saying that there is no scary bad guy.

[Patrick]

She's saying she's talking to William Powell. That is the only way she would know that I have a Nanny and twins. And the fact that that brought up the fact that I had nanny and twins to you, and now she's saying it tells me this is coming from him.

[Julia Bezavale]

This is all Benjamin.

[Patrick]

Shannon saying that.

[Julia Bezavale]

Shannon is saying that. She's like, my nanny isn't on Facebook. There's, like, there's no way for the world to know that she exists. My social media is locked down. These bad guys wouldn't know that I have two kids. And then we're flashing back to that scene of Benjamin in the car being like, doesn't she have a nanny and two kids?

[Patrick]

You were trying to get this guy to like you. Of course he knows that you have kids.

[Julia Bezavale]

And it's like, but then. But why is Benjamin threatening her and her kids? Like, he now, like, I guess he realizes that they weren't on his side and he doesn't want the documentary to come out.

[Patrick]

The easiest thing in the world to fake is someone who insists on being anonymous with no name and a. And a scrambled voice.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah. Yes, for sure.

[Patrick]

I don't believe any of this.

[Julia Bezavale]

But then, like, so, like, at the end of the day, like, they decide, like, we got to get him. Like, they're leaving the door open to, like, because Benjamin is now in the wind, they decide they're going to go confront him. They go to his apartment in Lafayette. His bike is gone. His shit is gone.

[Patrick]

Grace's old apartment building.

[Julia Bezavale]

They've got Natalia. Grace, old apartment building. Everything is gone, and nobody knows where Benjamin is.

[Patrick]

And she's like, you know, of course I'm scared of a hitman, but I'm not stopping now. And I'm like, so we don't care about your kids anymore. Where the threat has been, like, he's not a hitman. He's a con man. You fell for it. And now you're trying to act like either you didn't fall for it or that it's much bigger than it is so that you can con your way into a season two of this.

[Julia Bezavale]

Well, that's what it feels like. It feels like, are we, like, because, okay, for 30 years, nobody saw Benjamin. He was on the Phil Show. Not a friend or family member saw him. Like, that is insane. And now there's this entire incredibly popular documentary about him. Somebody knows where he is.

[Patrick]

So, okay, at the end, we have three minutes left. Chad's like, I'm not going to be another one of his victims. And I'm like, okay, you're making. You're putting yourself in that position.

[Julia Bezavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

So Benjamin Slash, William Powell is in the wind. He bailed. And then we get the on screen text if you recognize him or have information on his whereabouts from 1983 to present. I'm like, well, we have from 1994 to 2077. Please contact leedsotsotsnakesmedia.com neither Chico nor William Powell have been charged in connection with the alleged crimes in this series. Right. Nothing about the DNA and George Keck.

[Julia Bezavale]

Right.

[Patrick]

Let me tell you something, okay? George Keck died in 2020. And I only know that because I looked it up. I was like, whatever happened with this case, they don't give us that information.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh my God.

[Patrick]

That is incredibly unethical and shady. So Benjamin bailed in 2016. He bailed 10 years ago.

[Julia Bezavale]

Wait a second. He. Them going to his apartment to confront him was in 2016?

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Julia Bezavale]

So all feels like it was last week.

[Patrick]

That's what they want you to think. That's what is so shitty about this. So, Benjamin, so George Keck died six years ago and this documentary came out

[Julia Bezavale]

like two weeks ago, right?

[Patrick]

They want you to think so. This whole, like we've been working on it for 10 years. No, you haven't. This is footage from 10 years ago that you have repackaged and probably filmed talking. That's why they're so involved, because they have to connect the pieces for us. That's why it's so disingenuous, because it is.

[Julia Bezavale]

So wait, Benjamin went missing in 2016. It feels in the documentary like it happened. They dropped this documentary minutes after Benjamin went missing.

[Patrick]

I know. So everything was filmed in 2015, 2016, then presented 10 years later with zero context and without a timeline.

[Julia Bezavale]

Are there any Benjamin updates?

[Patrick]

No.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Like, so I think you're right. They had all this footage, they realized it was a nothing burger that nobody cares about, and then 10 years later they tried to do it and make up a big story. Wow. Everything from the impotent. The genesis of this, the fake 911 phone call in the shitty 9 minute documentary is what started this whole thing. This thing. We've been lied to from top to bottom.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh my God.

[Patrick]

Can you stand it?

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, girl. All right, we did. What is this called?

[Patrick]

The Blair Witch Project. True crime version. I'm sorry.

[Julia Bezavale]

The Many lives of Benjamin Kyle.

[Patrick]

There you go.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, my God. All right, what are we doing next?

[Patrick]

We're going. We're doing a real investigation. We're back with Jokenda.

[Julia Bezavale]

Oh, okay.

[Patrick]

Okay, great. The doc is called the Devil in the Mountains. It's on Hulu and hbo, Max and Discovery. But, like, I felt like we should go from a non investigation to like really getting shit done. Yeah, what do you think? So let me go.

[Julia Bezavale]

I'm exhausted.

[Patrick]

Exhausted.

[Julia Bezavale]

Fam, we did both episodes like back to back. You got them like one week after the other. Unless you're on the Patreon. I need a something. I need a something.

[Patrick]

I mean, nothing compared to Glitter Ball City. All three episodes in one sitting.

[Julia Bezavale]

That's true.

[Patrick]

Very close second, this one.

[Julia Bezavale]

All right, fam, we love you.

[Patrick]

We love you. Stay safe, please.

[Julia Bezavale]

Bye.

[Patrick]

Bye.

[Julia Bezavale]

I have met only one serial killer in my career. You not only have a murderer, you have some. Somebody who's playing with the remains. Of all the people I've arrested, charged and convicted of murder, he's the worst person I've ever dealt with.