513: Devil in the Mountains

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 513: Devil in the Mountains

Release Date: July 21, 2026
Hosts: Sasha & Kay
Featured Case: The murders committed by Ronald Lee White, as covered in the HBO Max/Discovery documentary "Devil in the Mountains"

---

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode dives into the grisly crimes of Ronald Lee White, a serial killer responsible for multiple murders in Colorado in the late 1980s. The hosts, Sasha and Kay, discuss Detective Joe Kenda’s investigation as depicted in the documentary, mixing their trademark irreverent humor and empathy for victims. They also critique the documentary’s tone, Kenda’s storytelling quirks, and the ways women witnesses were minimized by law enforcement in the narrative.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Joe Kenda’s Persona & the Case Introduction

• The episode opens with the hosts discussing Joe Kenda’s claim:
  "I've killed so many people, I don't even remember them all." – Quoting the killer, as relayed by Kenda [00:00]
• Kenda is described as:
  “the most evil person he's ever met.” – Kenda’s assessment of White [00:35]
• The murder that starts the documentary: On January 26, 1988, a fire in an apartment complex turns out to be arson covering up a brutal killing [01:16]. First responders discover a male body with multiple stab wounds, indicating homicide rather than fire as the cause of death.
• Hosts find humor in Kenda’s early-morning bravado and his catchphrase “my, my, my” [01:09, 05:20]. They joke about people bragging about waking up early and Kenda’s old-school attitude.

2. The Scene of the Crime and The Investigation

• The hosts introduce Victor Woods, the first identified victim, and note the brutality:
  • Multiple stab wounds
  • The killer pulled out part of Victor’s intestines, suggesting “someone who’s playing with the remains” [10:43]
• The killer left blood at the scene, likely due to a cut on his own hand, but DNA is never mentioned in the 90-minute documentary (reflecting late '80s tech) [11:19].
• The murder weapon—a knife from the victim’s own kitchen—indicates a crime of opportunity rather than premeditation [11:49].
• Police focus on finding someone with a fresh, severe hand injury [12:11].

3. Important Witnesses & Community Canvassing

• An 18-year-old Olympic athlete is a vital witness. She hears a fight from Victor’s apartment and sees a man flee into a muscle car [13:41].
• The hosts call out the repeated belittling of female witnesses throughout the documentary, pointing to a pattern of sexism [12:49, 37:39].
• Kenda’s fascination with the “muscle car” and the phrase “the car had throat” becomes a running joke [14:06, 15:07]. Sasha roasts men with loud cars as insecure and irritating [14:35, 14:55].
• The proximity to I-25 gives the suspect an easy escape route, possibly covering hundreds of miles [15:41].

4. Discovery of a Second Body – Escalating Horror

• Two months later, a rancher in Pueblo, Colorado, discovers a human torso; the hands and head are gone [16:18]. Talk about the difficult, graphic crime scene images [16:45].
• Police find the head and hands 20 miles away, along with gloves, a plastic bag, and a blood-stained saw blade—“within throwing distance of the road” [33:55].
• Wildlife destroyed some evidence, leading the hosts to joke about raccoons and pizzas, emphasizing that animals often confound rural murder scenes [34:18].

5. The Victims: Profiles and Connections

• Victor Woods: Bike shop manager, well-liked, recently reconciled with business partner David McCarty [18:58]. David is quickly ruled out as a suspect due to a documented old injury and lack of severe hand wounds [23:14].
• Victor’s car found at his favorite bar, but his absence creates a timeline gap—who drove him home? [26:25].
• Paul Vasika: The torso is eventually identified as bodybuilder Paul Vasika, who’d recently gotten involved in steroids, drugs, and running with a dangerous crowd [41:49]. His sister describes him as a “great guy” who got in over his head.

6. Clues and the Hunt for the Suspect

• Key details:
  • Multiple witnesses describe a “movie star handsome” man with a winter tan connected to Victor [37:21, 42:29].
  • The recurring theme of the suspect’s uncharacteristic good looks, as relayed (and often exaggerated) by Kenda [39:06, 42:33].
• The car is identified as a blue Trans Am [39:13].

7. The Hampton Inn Robbery & Additional Crimes

• The killer escalates with a robbery and shooting at a Hampton Inn—Raymond Garcia (desk clerk) is killed, and security guard Robert Martinez is gravely wounded but survives to provide a crucial witness statement [44:27].
• Martinez, shot in the jaw, recalls:
  “I heard a muscle car drive off.” [48:15]
• The murder for just $500 illustrates the killer’s desperation and lack of conscience [47:31].

8. The Role of Women and Critique of the Doc

• Multiple women (athlete, cab driver, ex-girlfriend) provide key evidence but are repeatedly infantilized.
  • Example:
    "Athletic girl"—she is actually an Olympic athlete.
  • The ex-girlfriend leads police to suspect Ronald Lee White after surviving a rape and violent assault, though the documentary downplays the severity of her ordeal [50:49].
  • “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”—Kenda’s flippant response, which the hosts find offensive given the circumstances [50:37].

9. Capture of Ronald Lee White

• Ronald Lee White is identified and captured thanks to the ex-girlfriend’s tip; he is quickly arrested without resistance [52:06].
• The hosts note the pattern of murderers posing as “tough” but surrendering meekly when confronted [52:21].
• White has an extensive, violent criminal record, including beating an inmate with a sledgehammer and allegedly shooting a suspect to “help” police—though this isn’t substantiated [53:06, 53:28].

10. Interrogation & Confession

• Kenda uses the old “light his cigarette, check for a palm scar” trick, dramatizing the scene:
  “When he opened his hand, there's a pink scar running across his palm.” [56:29]
• White quickly confesses to the murders and brags about other possible killings:
  "I've killed so many people, I don't even remember them all.” [58:25]
  • Kenda believes White is responsible for at least 15 murders [58:38], but ultimately, prosecutors only charge the cases they can prove.

11. Courtroom Outburst & Sentencing

• At sentencing, White threatens virtually everyone in the courtroom, boasting:
  “I'll kill all of you sons of [expletive] and I'll kill your kids too.” [59:06]
• The hosts express their disgust and relief at his life sentence, calling him “an ugly, insecure fucking loser” [59:29].

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Critiquing Kenda and Law Enforcement

• “Kenda was ready for this big like, gotcha, you son of a bitch. You killed him. No, but he doesn't get that; he's got to tell David that his dear friend has been murdered. This poor fucking guy in a full body leg cast crumples into a chair.” – Kay [24:27]
• “This docu... I think it's insane, and I think this documentary didn't have the decency to make it clear what he did. And this very brave woman is coming forward… to help them solve the case.” – Sasha [51:17]
• “There is an old expression: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. It’s been my experience that’s very true.” – Joe Kenda, critiqued by the hosts as demeaning to victims and witnesses [50:37]

Main Takeaways

• “Nothing says coward loser like the loudest car on the street.” – Sasha [52:30]
• “You're ruining everyone's five minutes. At the very least, maybe everyone's day.” – Sasha [52:59]
• “But ultimately, Candace [Kenda] like, well, it doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove.” – Kay [58:44]

---

Timeline of Important Segments

• [00:00–01:16] Opening remarks, Joe Kenda’s persona, and case setup
• [10:00–11:52] Discovery of Victor Woods’ murder scene, introduction of key forensic details (right hand injury, kitchen knife)
• [13:41–14:06] Olympic athlete witness, muscle car clue
• [16:18–17:06] Discovery of torso in Pueblo, gruesome details
• [23:03–24:46] Ruling out business partner, Kenda’s interrogation method
• [28:03–28:16] Bar fight at the Yukon Tavern, search for Victor’s ride home
• [33:55–36:07] Skull and saw blade found, linking evidence between scenes
• [41:49–42:09] Identification of Paul Vasika, links to drug and steroid use
• [44:27–48:15] Hampton Inn robbery/murder, survival and testimony of security guard
• [51:07–52:06] Ex-girlfriend’s testimony, White’s identification
• [56:29–58:38] Interrogation, confession, claims of multiple murders
• [59:02–59:29] Sentencing, White’s courtroom outbursts, hosts’ verdict

---

Style, Tone, and Other Remarks

• The hosts blend quick-witted banter, dark humor, and pointed critiques—especially regarding outdated sexism, law enforcement attitudes, and documentary choices.
• Frequent references to pop culture, everyday struggles (“medals for getting up early”), and digressions (hair-washing, pool table etiquette) keep the tone light even when discussing heavy content.
• Multiple live reactions to Kenda’s one-liners, misogynist undertones, and overemphasis on a killer’s “hotness” provide pointed commentary and comic relief.

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a thorough, often irreverent recap of the "Devil in the Mountains" case, highlighting the dark reality of a serial killer’s violence while centering victim stories and critiquing systemic flaws in criminal justice—especially the marginalization of women’s voices. With sharp commentary on investigative tactics, media representations, and gender dynamics, Sasha and Kay offer listeners an engaging and, at times, cathartic walk through one of Joe Kenda’s most haunting cases.

---

For more recaps, bonus content, or to see the hosts in action, listeners are encouraged to join their thriving YouTube and Patreon communities.

Transcript

[Sasha]

The killer says, I've killed so many people, I don't even remember them all. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. Yeah, but Kenda's like, there's no reason not to believe him. Like, Kenda says he's the most evil person he's ever met. Yeah.

[Kay]

Kenda says that he thinks he's good for like 15 murders.

[Sasha]

Yeah, I would believe that, sure.

[Kay]

But ultimately, Kendall's like, well, it doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove. Hi. Jillian Benzavale.

[Sasha]

Hello. Patrick Hyde, girl.

[Kay]

What are we talking about today?

[Sasha]

This is another Joe Kenda joint. It's Devil in the Mountains on hbo. Max discovery.

[Joe Kenda]

Plus, I have met only one serial killer in my career. You not only have a murderer, you have somebody who's playing with the remains. Of all the people I've arrested, charged and convicted of murder, he's the worst person I've ever dealt with.

[Kay]

Can I just say that Joe Kenda is like a spitfire in this one. I wasn't super into him last time. This, like, he's got so many one liners that I was like, was sure to write down. Well, my, my, my.

[Sasha]

That's his big one. It's not a joke and a doc or episode. If he doesn't say my, my, I mean.

[Kay]

So, okay, it's January 26, 1998. We hear a 911 call about a fire in an apartment complex.

[Sasha]

Commander Skip Arms, real name, telling us, skip Arms. I was like, holy shit.

[Kay]

Not just Legs Day.

[Sasha]

That's a name and a half.

[Kay]

Y. He's telling us they put out the fire, they find a body.

[Sasha]

And we learn that the body in the apartment is a male.

[Joe Kenda]

There were several lacerations to the victim, both front and back. It was so evident that this wasn't a death from a fire, but rather a death from a violent act.

[Sasha]

And Larry Martin, the chief of investigations, is like, we have a homicide, so naturally we have to call Joe Kenda. And I'm like, oh, naturally. Then Kenda, paging Patrick Hines is like, it's 5:30. I was awake anyway. And I'm like, why do you think people need a medal?

[Kay]

You should see mine. Every time it says, it's not a competition, Kenda. 5:30 is running a little late, don't you think, Kenda?

[Sasha]

Meanwhile, you're like, it's lunchtime, Kenda.

[Kay]

I'm like, I'm at the gym at 5:30. Kenz.

[Sasha]

What is it about these people?

[Kay]

I don't know.

[Sasha]

A medal about it early, right?

[Kay]

It's like the one thing we're good at. It's like the one. Because when you get out of bed at 4 in the morning like I do, it's like you've made one big accomplishment for the day. Like, you're. You're up and ready to go. I used to just be able to sit right down on my computer. Now I gotta walk the damn dog.

[Sasha]

Is that all it takes just getting out of bed? It's true. We all need a medal for that these days. So I will cut the shit. But it's like everyone needs to announce if you wake up before seven on a regular basis, you need to announce it.

[Kay]

Yes, it's true.

[Sasha]

And like, that's what I've learned. I don't necessarily think you have to, but I've learned in my experience that people who wake up early have to tell everyone they wake up early.

[Kay]

There's a meme going around. There's like a guy holding up a poster board that says, did you know that you can go to the gym and not tell anybody?

[Sasha]

You know what?

[Kay]

We should change that for those of us who get up before, you know, you can get up at 4 in the morning and not tell anybody.

[Sasha]

And I will to make it this even playing field. My thing is, I saw a TikTok the other day that I got served that I immediately sent to Mike where a guy was like, just so everyone knows, my wife has to wash her hair today. So do what you need to do, but my wife has to wash her hair today. And all the comments are like, you don't know the math and everything that we go through. But I sent it to my. Because I will announce, yeah. He'll ask me a question about like, what do you want for dinner? And I'm literally like, okay, if I'm washing my hair on Wednesday.

[Kay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sasha]

Dinner should be like, what can I make? Because I don't want it to spell.

[Kay]

Like, let me tell you, though, that that's not like a direct line. Like, my daughter got out of the show other day and had so much conditioner left in her hair, I had to put her hair under the kitchen faucet with our little sprayer thing and like wash her hair. Like, we were at a salon.

[Sasha]

It's because she probably put too much in in the first place, you know? But getting out of the shower and you're like. Then you feel it and you're like, God damn it.

[Kay]

I know.

[Sasha]

I just did an everything shower. Do you know what I did? Do you know What I got rid of. Do you know what I shaved? Do you know what I cleaned? I did the hair mask. I did the whole thing. And then you feel it, and it's always right here in the back. And then you're like, I'm lotion.

[Kay]

Yep.

[Sasha]

I'm fucking drunk dry. Now, I have to go back, but my announcement is when I. That, like, I tell Mike, like, when I'm washing my hair. And he's like, great.

[Kay]

Well, right. Let me just say here we're getting a little bit of, like, personal home life from Kenda.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

He's like, there's some frantic dispatcher making announcements about what happened.

[Joe Kenda]

He's like, don't tell me anything, because I don't want to know what you think you know, first reports are never to be believed. Give me an address. Where am I going? I'll decide what's happened when I get there.

[Kay]

Kenda, we get it. Nobody's better at this than you.

[Sasha]

First reports are never to be believed. Now, we've covered cases where that is not true, right? Famously, zodiac, they said it was a black guy. Like, is that racism?

[Kay]

Is that right?

[Sasha]

Whatever. But, like, we've seen it where first reports are totally to be believed. And first reports.

[Kay]

But this poor dispatcher is just doing their job. They got to tell you something. They need you to know a little bit about what you're walking into, Ken.

[Sasha]

The attitude.

[Kay]

The attitude.

[Sasha]

So it's 1988. Kenda has been a cop for 15 years. He's a supervisor in homicide. Mrs. Kendall, who does not get a first name, who is not happy about his line. And he goes, my kids weren't either. I ignored them, and my wife and children suffered for it. To which I say, oh, the patriarchy.

[Kay]

Well, my, my, my.

[Sasha]

He took an oath. We get it.

[Kay]

So Kenda says, you know, as a policeman, you've raised your right hand to do something that ultimately very dangerous. That's when they give you a gun and a pocket full of bullets.

[Sasha]

Okay? I was like, the wild west.

[Kay]

I know. The thing about Kenda is that the entire time, I like this guy. He's done good work, sure. But, like, the entire time he was on the police force, he KN was going to get a TV show someday.

[Sasha]

And I wonder, like, Kenda today, right, how similar he is to Kenda then, because it feels like, you know, when you tell a story and you get to say, like, oh, and then I said this. Did you say it in the moment, or is it better in the storytelling?

[Kay]

He was definitely not walking around the like the Colorado Springs PD going, well, my, my, my. He was not doing that.

[Sasha]

But I do think, oh, we got a murder. We got to call Canada. Like, I. I do. But, you know, and I got to

[Kay]

say one other thing too. We'll see a picture of him in this moment when he was on the force for 15 years. They show this, like, young, weird looking Kenda with a perm. Karl Marino does play young Joe Kenda in this now.

[Sasha]

From PI Moms.

[Kay]

From PI Moms. And like, Carl Marino is a piece of shit, but he's pretty hot. And like, the Kenda comparison doesn't quite line up. It's a legit perm. Like, it's not curly hair. He permed his hair.

[Sasha]

Yeah. My favorite thing about Kenda is that, God damn it, he wants to get the guy.

[Kay]

He does.

[Sasha]

And I appreciate that. That, I believe is why we're all here.

[Kay]

He just kind of thinks that, like the 1970s sexism was sexy.

[Sasha]

I'm going to rip it apart when we get there.

[Kay]

Okay. We're kind of counting on you for that, girl.

[Sasha]

If there's one thing, if there's one thing that I'm consistent about, truly, every day, just a little bit burned in the patriarch. 100%, we should all be doing something that's like a little bit, just a tiny bit, just like knock him down.

[Kay]

Also, Carl Mourinho gets one line because we see a reenactment of the crime scene. Young Joe Kennis shows up. Carl Marlino rolls up and he goes,

[Sasha]

marlino, What'd I say? You got Joey on the line, baby.

[Kay]

What's his name?

[Sasha]

Marino.

[Kay]

Carl Marino.

[Joe Kenda]

What do we got?

[Kay]

What do we got? He gets one line.

[Sasha]

I didn't even notice him. Yeah, he went right. I was not even paying attention.

[Kay]

I had to look it up. I'm like, is this our guy? This is our guy. I know, I know, girl. Miracle made sheets are back. I climb into my bed every night, so thrilled to be there. Especially in the summer where these sheets are designed to keep you cool.

[Sasha]

Yeah, here's the thing. It's not just the summer. It's just perfect temperature all year long. So miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. It doesn't matter. You're a cold sleeper. Got you covered. Hot sleeper, got you covered. Doesn't matter.

[Kay]

And they say clean longer. Like sheets can get nasty. But thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets.

[Sasha]

Yeah, that means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles, way less laundry.

[Kay]

It's great for your skin and none of that sheet stick girl I just made. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest.

[Sasha]

Go to try Miracle.com TCO to try Miracle made sheets today save over 40%

[Kay]

and when you use promo code TCO, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set.

[Sasha]

They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk.

[Kay]

That's try Miracle.com TCO code TCO at checkout.

[Sasha]

Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this

[Kay]

episode and keeping us cool girl.

[Sasha]

Finally

[Kay]

fam. Before we get back to the episode, just a quick reminder, if you're not subscribed to us on YouTube, please go do it because we have almost 550,000 subscribers.

[Sasha]

That's crazy.

[Kay]

It's so. It's growing by the day.

[Sasha]

Thank you so much.

[Kay]

It's so fun. We give really good YouTube. It's really fun to watch us. Especially like in this one. This one is wild and crazy. Go check us out. It's true Crime Obsessed Podcast and Patreon.

[Sasha]

Yeah, we have a Patreon where you can get ad free versions of like regular feed episodes. That's where we do the series like Trust me, yes, False Prophet. And also where we do like deep dives sometimes. Like the Crash, for example. Like I did a full deep dive where I told Patrick and you, dear listener, about things that maybe Netflix left out, like an hour and 15 minutes. All fun stuff.

[Kay]

Our friend Matt Koplik the other day was like, I just listened to your coverage of the Queen of Versailles, which is very first thing we ever did on Patreon almost 10 years ago. We also covered Madonna's Truth or Dare on Patreon.

[Sasha]

I thought that was the first one.

[Kay]

I can't remember. It was one or the other was first it's a blur, but then it's like the staircase and like, you know, every, like Making a murderer. We did 20 episodes. The Jinx, all of the classic stuff, everything that's on Netflix, Hulu, hbo, Max, it's all over there. Yep.

[Sasha]

Joe Kenda arrives. The fire captain gives him a tour. The scene is. Is totally destroyed. It's a complete mess. He says it's the worst smell you'll ever smell in your life. Just, I mean just destruction and horror and tragedy and violence.

[Kay]

But it's also clearly arson. Like he's saying there were multiple spots where fire was initiated and newspaper was used as the accelerant. So somebody like Killed it. Remember this guy? The dead body in the room was not killed in the fire.

[Sasha]

Right.

[Kay]

So somebody killed this guy and is like clearly trying to cover it up with a fire.

[Joe Kenda]

Right.

[Sasha]

Well, let's name him. Our victim is Victor Woods. He's 31 years old. This is his home.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

He was violently killed. Remember before the fire, a lot of stab wounds, very, very violent. We know that the person who did this was right handed.

[Kay]

Yes. Because the stabs were coming from the right.

[Sasha]

Right. So we have like a very, very violent murder. A lot of destruction of the body and arson. Like this person really did a number here.

[Kay]

And now this is really disturbing. Not for the kids if you're in the car.

[Joe Kenda]

So here he is, cut up to pieces. The most disturbing thing is someone has pulled out a section of his intestines. This was not the result of being stabbed. So you not only have a murderer, you have somebody who's playing with the remains.

[Kay]

Oh, the killer cut open his stomach to pull out his intestines.

[Sasha]

Awful. I mean, whoever did this is a fucking psychopath. Like violent, murderous piece of shit. Also though, the person who did this left their blood all over the apartment. And I know it's 1988.

[Kay]

Right. Well, by the way, the entire investigation, this is a 90 minute episode. The words, the letters, DNA are never used.

[Sasha]

Never.

[Kay]

Is that wild?

[Joe Kenda]

Because.

[Sasha]

And the reason they're saying it's important now about the blood is that he probably cut his hand.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

So what they're. And Kenda's like, it was right in the palm, a very, very painful wound. So what they're looking for now is someone that has probably has a very, very big cut on his hand.

[Kay]

Right. So they find a knife. It's a 13 inch kitchen blade. It's covered in blood. It's obviously the murder weapon. Kendra takes one look at the kitchen and he's like, it came from there.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Like there's one knife, knife out of the knife block.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

And he's like, okay, well, so this is a murder of opportunity. This person came here and just did this horrible thing.

[Kay]

Like it wasn't premeditated. So like it seems like Victor let the guy into his house and something happened and the killer killed him.

[Sasha]

Right. Like, did they know each other? What's going on?

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

And so there's blood all over the bathroom. And we just keep hearing like whoever did this had a major injury.

[Kay]

My hand hurt the whole entire time.

[Sasha]

Good.

[Kay]

Yeah, for him.

[Sasha]

I hate this guy. Look what I did to you, you know?

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

So they're Calling the hospitals and they're like, do you have a piece of shit with a really bad wound on his right hand? We again, we have an APB for an absolute piece of shit with a bleeding hand.

[Kay]

So they say that the key component in most murder investigations is neighborhood canvassing. This is like the pre DNA days. But I love this. It's like the boots on the ground. We're going to go around and like see who saw what.

[Sasha]

Well, we have a witness. She's an 18 year old Olympic athlete.

[Kay]

What does she do?

[Sasha]

She does karate and judo. Hell yeah.

[Kay]

She says karate, she does karate.

[Sasha]

I got to tell you, we meet so many women here who are such valuable witnesses and all they do do is like demean them and infantilize them. So yes, it's infuriating. So she lives in this apartment complex which is near the Olympic training center. She is an olympic athlete at 18 years old. Remember that?

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

So she's like, you know what, I was having trouble sleeping. She needs to like stretch out her back because she's been working so hard as an Olympic athlete.

[Kay]

She's going to the vending machine because this, this girl needs her Cheetos.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

When you go to a vending machine, there is one item in there and it is Cheetos.

[Sasha]

I love how it's like, oh, I got to stretch my back. You know what'll do the trick? Getting those Cheetos. I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I got a back stretch.

[Kay]

I would never buy Cheetos except every time I'm at an airport, I always get a bag of Cheetos for the plane.

[Sasha]

Airports don't mean because you can drink at any time. You order things, you eat things and drink things you never would in the real world. It's not real Cheetos.

[Kay]

Like I don't know what it is, but like Cheetos is my airplane food.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Good for you.

[Kay]

I love them. So we learn she heard as she's at the vending machine hitting B4 for the Cheetos, she hears a muffled argument coming out of apartment 104. This is the apartment where the fire was. She says she can't tell what they're saying, but they're yelling at each other. And then. And it stopped. And while she was outside, she saw a guy run up to the apartment complex and get into what she described as a muscle car.

[Joe Kenda]

And I asked her, so what, Tell me about this car. Any different about it? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, it's hot. Yeah. How do you know I could hear it.

[Kay]

Never in my life have I heard this expression before. A muscle car.

[Sasha]

I have that. What I hadn't heard is Kenda going, the car's got throat. I know what that means. I'm a car guy and I'm like, kenda, I know what that means too. It means that this guy is an insecure, pure loser who thinks having a loud, obnoxious car makes him more of a man. But in reality, he's like telling on himself and irritating everybody.

[Kay]

You know what I hate about myself? I get scared by those cars every time I. The point of those loud mufflers is to scare the shit of the people on the street.

[Sasha]

Talk to Fiona about this. My poor little girl hates them. The loud, loud, loud ass motorcycles. The loud ass cars I hate.

[Kay]

That makes me so angry. Like every time it happens, it makes me so mad.

[Sasha]

And everyone who has a car like this or a vehicle like this, serial killer, like, you're. It's not doing what you think it's doing. No, it's not just annoying people. It's making them angry. It's scaring the dogs. Yeah, it's just, you're not cool. You're an insecure loser.

[Kay]

Kenda saying, the car had throat. I know what that means because I'm a car guy. The car had throat. Oh, my God.

[Sasha]

You don't like that. If you're trying to get people's attention in the good way, people don't like that.

[Kay]

And by the way, they let him go on. He pontificates. I have always loved cars. I've had every kind of car you can imagine.

[Sasha]

Okay, the point is, Kenda, these cars are super annoying and obnoxious, but this is kind of great for the case. Very, very, very specific car to look for.

[Kay]

And it means that this guy like left in a vehicle. Right. So now we've got something to look for.

[Sasha]

But the bad thing is that the apartment is right near the entrance to I25.

[Joe Kenda]

Interstate 25 starts in El Paso, Texas, runs through the states of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and into Montana. So there is a four lane pathway leading you into three quarters of the western United States.

[Sasha]

So this guy's in the wind and has been for hours.

[Kay]

They'll tell us later. I25 goes from Mexico, basically to Canada. And like, this guy's got hours of a head start. He could be anywhere.

[Sasha]

So it's March 26th, 1988. Now we're in Pueblo, Colorado, two months later.

[Kay]

Yeah. We meet Roger Gomez. He's a detective on the local police. I Love this guy. We. He tells us about a rancher named Mr. Sykes. And Mr. Sykes calls the cops because he was on horseback looking for a baby calf that had gone missing, but he found something else that he wasn't looking for. And this guy Lee, who's friends with the rancher who found this thing, says, you gotta listen to your horse. It helps you find what you're looking for in addition to other things you might not want to find.

[Sasha]

Well, like this horrible. Like this decomposed torso of a human being. Also, way too many photos. Way too many production. Can we not.

[Kay]

They show us. So I cannot believe this was not blurred.

[Sasha]

I cannot.

[Kay]

They show us this decomposing human torso from. From every angle imaginable all throughout this episode.

[Sasha]

It's horrifying.

[Kay]

Horrifying.

[Sasha]

Not cool production.

[Kay]

No, not cool. No. So Detective Roger gets to the site. He immediately knows what it is. Kenda tells us, there's no head. There's no hands. And then he says, well, who could do that? Well, somebody.

[Sasha]

Did Kenda get it? We're trying to get the guy, and this is horrible, because they discover the legs away from the torso. It is so brutal. We see so many photos of it. And we're told that the body is, quote, mummified, and the dry air has caused this. So this body's been here for months. And we're told that, like, the silver lining, if you can even call it that, is that it sort of helps preserve the body. So maybe we can get some answers to a lot of our questions.

[Kay]

Maybe I just say that Kenda at this point also says because the hands and the head have been cut off, which obviously is that it was meant so that you wouldn't be able to identify the body. He goes, at this point, there's no way to identify him other than being human and being dead.

[Sasha]

Okay, you know what? Planning is on a different level here. I get it.

[Kay]

Other than being human and being dead.

[Sasha]

So we have no evidence to work from. There's no blood anywhere. Like, not even a dried blood stain or anything. Like, this body was definitely placed here, and something horrible happened before and after.

[Kay]

So they bring the coroner out because they, like, they can't figure out a cause of death on the scene. They bring the corner out looking for impact wounds, puncture wounds, dismemberment.

[Joe Kenda]

The doctor finds a jagged cut line on the neck. The jagged cut line reveals this was done with a saw blade of some kind. The doctor finds a similar pattern on the wrist bones.

[Kay]

The head was cut off with some kind of Saw blade.

[Sasha]

Right. So now, like, meanwhile, back to Colorado Springs. Who is Victor Woods? The victim from the fire. But the fire was set after he was brutally killed.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

They immediately notify his friends and family in the area. And we meet. Who's Victor's best friend. Vic was the best man at his wedding. We meet him and his wife Linda, and they loved Victor so much, they are stunned.

[Kay]

They're just talking about, like, his personality and his charisma. Like, everybody just loves him. Everybody is shocked. And so they tell us that Vic was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was a manager at a bike shop in Colorado Springs. And, like, we're gonna learn later, this guy loved bikes. Like, loved it. Like, working at a bike shop was like his dream job. He had it. He was very happy.

[Sasha]

I have to tell you, I know I say this all the time, but I love when people find what they love and they do it 100% and they're awesome at it.

[Kay]

Remember that guy who was a doctor of finding shit on the Internet?

[Sasha]

Yeah. Literally, that was his lower third in my mind. But he's like. Well, no, like, he's an expert and the go to guy, like, he's sort of famous around town. If you have any bike issue, question, whatever, like, go to Victor. And I just love when people find their thing.

[Kay]

Me too.

[Sasha]

And they nail it.

[Kay]

We're doing it right now.

[Sasha]

Is that. I guess so.

[Kay]

You know, we found her. That's why I get up at 4 in the morning, girl, you know? Almost 10 years.

[Sasha]

Oh, my gosh,

[Kay]

girl. Built is back. This is all about getting points for paying your rent, paying your mortgage and other things. You've been using it?

[Sasha]

Yeah, I've been using it so the build points can be redeemed for flights, hotels, Amazon.com purchases, like, future payments. But I've been using them for Lyft rides.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

So I linked it up with my Lyft and then it'll say, pay with points. And I'm like, don't mind if I do. What? It's amazing.

[Kay]

That's basically like a free ride for paying your mortgage.

[Sasha]

That's what I'm saying. Even if it's a few bucks, I'm like, I'll take a few bucks off. That was totally funny.

[Kay]

Oh, my God.

[Sasha]

And it's not just lift. It's connected to over 50, 50,000 merchant partners. Yeah.

[Kay]

You can ask it to pay your rent. We're talking making dinner reservations, book a fitness class, schedule a lift if you're gp.

[Sasha]

There you go.

[Kay]

Also, girl, an unexpected benefit built Gives every member is access to its agent, neighborhood concierge in the Bilt app.

[Sasha]

And it makes things happen while automatically applying your member benefits along the way. That's what I was saying. It literally says, like, I didn't have to update my Lyft app. I just had to connect it. Totally pay with points, but a bing, bada boom.

[Kay]

So this concierge, it doesn't just give you information about your home in your neighborhood. It executes girl, right?

[Sasha]

I'm living proof. I just did it today.

[Kay]

So here's what you do. First, you download the app. Second, you link any credit or debit card to the app. And then you can ask the neighborhood concierge in the app pretty much anything.

[Sasha]

Yeah, this is great. I'm using it on a regular basis.

[Kay]

So fam. Download the build app and join the membership for where you live at. Join built.com/tco.

[Sasha]

That's J O I N B I L T.com TCO.

[Kay]

Use our link so they know that we sent you.

[Sasha]

Enjoy the free money.

[Kay]

So the detective contacts Victor's apartment manager and, like, I'm kind of ready to learn that. Victor was like, a real piece of shit.

[Sasha]

No, of course not.

[Kay]

He was amazing. The man. The apartment manager's like, no problems. He paid his rent in full, on time, every month. Like, life was really good for this guy.

[Sasha]

He was a model tenant, you know? And so, however, the manager knew that Victor was kind of having a lot of problems with his business partner, David McCarty.

[Joe Kenda]

And oftentimes in a business relationship, there may be a lot of money involved. One person's action may have a real negative impact on the other partner and create a lot of anger.

[Sasha]

Money is stressful within families, but when it's money involving a livelihood, I think that really ratchets up the tension. Whatever the issue was, it was causing a lot of money problems. There was, like, a lot of stress, a lot of tension. We're told they were fighting pretty often. Like, this isn't a new development that they were fighting. There was a lot of tension for, like, quite some time.

[Kay]

So Kenda theorizes, what if David came over and things got out of hand? Quote, david grabs a kitchen knife and decides to dance with Victor.

[Sasha]

And I'm like, I know. And he goes on and on and on and on about how, like, a tense business relationship, that's something to look into. And I'm like, we know.

[Kay]

But, like, decides to grab a kitchen knife and dance with Victor. Like, oh, my God. Like, Ken has been writing the script in his head for 50 years.

[Sasha]

Years. Right.

[Kay]

You know what I mean?

[Sasha]

Exactly. Right. So Kenda and company go to the bike shop and talk to David, the business partner.

[Kay]

So David, this poor son of a bitch. They're ready for there. This is the guy. And Kenda's mind, like this is definitely the guy. David comes hobbling out in what kind of describes is basically a full body cast?

[Sasha]

Well, it's crutches on his leg because

[Kay]

remember Ken, he was hobbling, he was pale face, he was sweating, he could barely walk.

[Sasha]

Because Kendra's looking for that injury on the hand. That's the big thing.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Right. So they, he does have major injuries, but not what they were looking for.

[Kay]

No. And he's like guy like in a basically full body casting crutch is going to be able to like tussle with a 30 year old like fit young guy. Probably not.

[Sasha]

And the cast is old and covered in signatures, which is, I thought that

[Kay]

was very to the props department on that one, by the way.

[Sasha]

Like the guy didn't do this. Who's going to hold his crutches? Not the time. But they still want to talk to him. I get it. He was still very close to Victor. Like I would want to talk to him as well. But David, the business partner is super honest because he goes, he reports.

[Joe Kenda]

Yeah, there's money problems in the business. And Victor had ideas and I disagree with him and we argued about it. But eventually I came around to his way of thinking and we were going to start doing a few of the things that he suggested.

[Kay]

He had a really great idea. He was going around to the local hotels and getting the hotels to rent bikes from the shop for their guests to use for free.

[Sasha]

Great idea.

[Kay]

Victor's got really good business ideas. He wants this business to work.

[Sasha]

And David really admits, like I was kind of fighting him on it, but he was right. And by at the time of Victor's murder, it's just so sad. They were both like on the same page, reconciled, excited about their business. Yes.

[Kay]

Kenda was ready for this big like, gotcha, you son of a bitch. You killed him. No, but he doesn't get that he's got to tell David that his like dear friend has been murdered. This poor fucking guy in a full body leg cast crumples into a chair. Kenda still takes the opportunity to look at his palm on the way down and make sure it doesn't have a slash on it.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Just to be extra, extra sure.

[Kay]

This is not the guy.

[Sasha]

Not the guy. Well, let's go to the Yukon Tavern. This is Victor's favorite bar. He was a regular there. He was a member of one of the pool leagues. No one is worse at pool than I am. Nobody.

[Kay]

Is that right?

[Sasha]

Terrible.

[Kay]

Even I'm okay at pool.

[Sasha]

Terrible. It never feels right in my. Oh, it is always awkward. I have no strength or confidence when I'm hitting it. It's always a very weak. What do you even call it?

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Can't do it.

[Kay]

You know where I always look like such a. Is when you're. When you rack the balls and then you got to break.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

Cuz like, you're supposed to hit it in like, such a way that it

[Sasha]

very coolly goes everywhere.

[Kay]

Never my. I get like the. Like the. The blue nine rolls off that way.

[Sasha]

I' very cool. Anyway, but like me holding a pool cue and trying to get it, and then I'm like, oh, are people walking behind me? Also bars.

[Kay]

It's because you're so polite.

[Sasha]

Can we put the. The pool table a little bit out of the way? Because the people playing pool are never aware of who's behind them.

[Kay]

I know.

[Sasha]

And I'm dodging the pool cue. I want them to play.

[Kay]

My favorite, though, is that. Do you know they make a small pool cue? So for like the tight shots, we got to get around. Like, you can actually get the small ones.

[Sasha]

Right. And even that thing where that, like the little training wheels where you have the thing. It still doesn't work. I'm still an awkward.

[Kay]

One of those things where it has like, the divots in it and you can like, put it down and then put your cue in it.

[Sasha]

I don't know how people can look so, like, effortless and cool holding a pool cue. Oh, my God.

[Kay]

No. Pool is a cool game. I'll never understand the guy who can do the trick shot or the gal who can do the trick shot or the they then that can do the trick shot where it's like.

[Sasha]

Or calling it.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

No corner pocket.

[Kay]

Are you kidding me? Get out of here.

[Sasha]

I'll watch. I'll cheer. Totally could never be me.

[Kay]

How?

[Sasha]

Absolutely. Anyway, Victor was great at it. Another thing that, like, Victor is very good at.

[Kay]

Yeah. And they pull up and they see Victor's car is parked out front. Like it's the daytime now.

[Sasha]

Okay, this is a big lead, right?

[Kay]

It's a big lead because obviously Victor had been there, but he also didn't drive home. So somehow he got home by means of somebody else. And so the other way of saying he didn't get home by himself.

[Sasha]

But did I have it? They talked to the bartender, and they're like, oh, my God, of course I know Victor. He's here all the time. He never causes any trouble. He gets along with everyone.

[Joe Kenda]

Generally, he was a quiet individual. On this particular night, he seemed to be drinking a little bit more, a little bit more bolsterous, a little bit more obnoxious. The bartender says he starts an argument with some people, and it winds up going out in the parking lot, and there is a fight, and he was

[Sasha]

drinking more, and he was kind of getting a little obnoxious. The bartender had to cut him off. And I'm like, this doesn't sound like the Victor we knew. Like, something happened.

[Kay]

Not my Victor. No. And even best friend Rick is like, well, he doesn't really drink a lot, but when he does drink, he gets a little bit annoying, and it can make people mad.

[Sasha]

They. A fight breaks out, they have to take it outside. It spills out into the parking lot.

[Kay]

That is crazy.

[Sasha]

Someone. Do you think someone said, you want to take this outside? Or did it just like.

[Kay]

Yeah, some smart woman was like, assholes take this outside?

[Sasha]

Anyone? Dear listeners, has anyone, like, been in a fight or involved a fight where someone was actually like, let's take this outside, and then you went outside and fought? Or is that only in the movie?

[Kay]

That only happens on Mob Wives. You know what I mean? As far as I know.

[Sasha]

Outside, no. They're flipping those goddamn tables at Emilio's.

[Kay]

I also do love, too, that Kenda here, just Kendall here decides to us about something called liquid courage.

[Sasha]

Liquid courage.

[Kay]

Let me tell you what happens when you drink alcohol.

[Sasha]

They begin to believe that they are somehow a professional boxer because they've had 13 beers.

[Kay]

We know, like, that's crazy.

[Sasha]

But I did appreciate him saying bar fights are almost always over nothing, which is very, very, very, very.

[Kay]

Because the thing is, like, they find all the guys involved in the. Like, the thing about a bar fight. I've never been in one, but I've got. I've been in fights in bars, but never fistfights. Just like, gay fights where somebody didn't, like, the last season of the West Wing or something, and then that really escalates. Oh, somebody didn't watch the TV show Popular and, like, that can get out of hand. Somebody didn't like, like, Mayhem by. By Gaga and, like, you just. That can only go in one direction.

[Sasha]

Okay. Not a fan of the ending of the West Wing last season.

[Kay]

Oh, we're doing this now?

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kay]

Okay.

[Sasha]

Okay. What about the show Popular. I.

[Kay]

Well, popular was just like. It was like the first, like, Ryan Murphy joint. And it was just like.

[Sasha]

That's a Ryan Murphy show.

[Kay]

It was like one of the very first Ryan Murphy show.

[Sasha]

Charlie Pope.

[Kay]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sasha]

I didn't know that was a. That was a Charlie Murphy. Sorry.

[Kay]

See, here we go. What do you think about the album Mayhem by Lady Gaga?

[Sasha]

I. I don't know.

[Kay]

Okay.

[Sasha]

What do I think about it?

[Kay]

You love it.

[Sasha]

I love it.

[Kay]

Great. Yeah. That's so good. Okay, but this is what I'm saying, like, all of the guy. Because in the moment, it's the most intense fight. Everyone is madder than they've ever been. But now the cops are questioning these guys and like, oh, it's just a misunderstanding. Yeah. Like, in the clear light of day the next morning, like, we didn't even remember what that was.

[Sasha]

No one actually got hurt. It was just a stupid thing. So no one from the bar is a suspect. They tell us that they spoke to literally everybody and is, like, looking at

[Kay]

every palm he can find.

[Sasha]

Yeah, like, and there are. That's the most important thing. There are no, like, major cuts on someone's hand. And I'm like, okay, well, then why is Victor's car still in the parking lot? Who gave him a ride home? What happened?

[Kay]

And importantly, he lived, like, many miles away, so it's too far to walk. He couldn't have walked, girl. Salton Stone is back. Look. That is that awesome deodorant. Can I tell you, since I have switched, I have never. I don't ever wear cologne. So, like, I wear this deodorant and I get, like, stopped and complimented about it.

[Sasha]

I mean, you smell like a luxury hotel. Thank you.

[Kay]

I thought you'd never mention.

[Sasha]

You know what I mean. Yes, but it's true. It's a deodorant, but it also can absolutely double as a fragrance.

[Kay]

Exactly, exactly. So, fam. Stolen Stone has a discovery set, right? And they've got their four scents. It's Santal, bergamot, saffron, and neroli.

[Sasha]

You know, my favorite is Santal. You want to know why? Why? It has vetiver in it. And nothing ever has vetiver in it.

[Kay]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sasha]

I love it.

[Kay]

Talk dirty to me, GP I will. This deodorant is award winning. It's aluminum free and formulated for eight hour protection.

[Sasha]

Do you know that today they sell one deodorant every five seconds?

[Kay]

I believe it. This stuff smells that good.

[Sasha]

It's so good.

[Kay]

So, fam. Try salt and stone's discovery set. To find your signature scent, go to

[Sasha]

salt and stone.com tco and use code tco at checkout for 15% off your first order.

[Kay]

That salt and stone.com tco use code tco for 15% off your first order.

[Sasha]

You're going to smell amazing. You are luxury girl.

[Kay]

Jolie is a new sponsor.

[Sasha]

Let me tell you. So Jolie is a beauty wellness company with a clinically proven filtered shower head.

[Kay]

Oh, my God.

[Sasha]

Designed to remove chlorine and heavy metals and all of these things that can possibly damage your skin and hair. We're not doing that.

[Kay]

So let me tell you. So Daisy goes to camp every day now. She swims in that chlorine filled pool. We put this in in Daisy's shower. I don't know if I wasn't expecting much, but like, I always do her hair when she comes out of the shower. And it was beyond a noticeable difference. It was like she got her real hair back in shower.

[Sasha]

Yeah. And at first I was like, oh, a new shower head. That just feels kind of like a scary change.

[Kay]

Totally.

[Sasha]

It installs in minutes. It fits all showers. It delivers amazing pressure, and it just elevates any space. It feels fancy, Let me tell you.

[Kay]

It took a minute to get her out of the shower. She was like, dancing around. Like, showering is not her favorite thing. It might be now.

[Sasha]

And I have to tell you, that feeling of like, you think you rinsed everything, but then you didn't and you get out of the shower and you're like, now I have to do it all again. I just did one everything shower.

[Kay]

I'm so used to her getting out of the shower with stuff still in her hair.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

Not anymore.

[Sasha]

Yeah. And yeah, like, Julie is kind of like the baseline. If you have a skincare and hair care routine, that's the first thing. Because if your water isn't right, then nothing else is really performing the way it should.

[Kay]

And let me tell you, it's cool and chic. Looking like daisies was just like a standard thing. And now it's like fancy.

[Sasha]

It's so nice. I have a lot of different colors that can really match whatever finish your shower has.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Very cool.

[Kay]

So, fam. Try Jolie risk free for 60 days by going to Jolie Skin Company.

[Sasha]

That's Jolie skinco.com/tco. Jolie is also available online on Amazon and costco both online and in store. So now we're back with the body that was found in pueblo with the torso. We're seeing way too Many photos. Once again.

[Kay]

Yeah. And they're doing the autopsy and Officer Roger, I gotta say, he was like very interested in this. And they allowed him to sit in on the autopsy, which I thought was pretty cool.

[Sasha]

Yeah. So in relation to that, on May 7, 1988, just a few months later,

[Joe Kenda]

there was a second call that came in to the public county sheriff's office in the right. There was people on the trail and they came across what appeared to be

[Kay]

bones, but they weren't even sure if

[Joe Kenda]

it was human bones until they actually saw the skull.

[Sasha]

Someone calls to report finding bones on a hiking trail by a ravine, specifically a skull, AKA parts that are missing from the torso that they have.

[Kay]

So it's 20 miles away. And like Officer Roger, who sat in on the autopsy is like, all right, I'm thinking to myself, stay calm, calm, girl. Don't jump to conclusions. Let the scientific evidence support what you think before you open your mouth. I was like, okay, Roger.

[Sasha]

Because he's wondering, is everything they found at this ravine part of this torso that doesn't have a head? But now we have a head.

[Kay]

I know it's 20 miles away, but like, if it's not, like, we're in big fucking trouble. Like if there's a.

[Sasha]

We are. Anyway, girl, I got news for you.

[Kay]

I know it's all 1988, but it's like there's a torso over here and then 20 miles away there's a skull and like hand bones. Like, please, dear God.

[Sasha]

Well, it's not just that though. So they search the scene and they find a pair of black leather gloves, a cord to venetian blinds, a black plastic bag, a blood covered saw blade,

[Kay]

and all of this, by the way, they say, is within throwing distance of the road.

[Sasha]

And the cops are saying, okay, this is what they used to dismember the body. Here's the issue now. I say this with love in my heart.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Wildlife destroys evidence. It's no shade. We love wildlife.

[Kay]

I want you to know that when a body's left in a wooded rural area, you are no longer mama's baby boy anymore. You're lunch.

[Sasha]

I know, Kendall, we've been saying that for 10 years.

[Kay]

I know. Okay, you're absolutely right.

[Sasha]

No shade to stole your line. No, bitch stole my line. No, it's just. Again, it's just a fact. No shade to the wildlife. We love you. Yeah. You just do this sometimes. And so this can sometimes make it difficult for evidence in cases. And then evil people will use this to their advantage.

[Kay]

Right?

[Sasha]

And then the animals unbeknownst to them are like, oh, lucky us, like we don't have to hunt today. And then they don't know. And then they feel bad. Oh my God. I didn't mean to destroy evidence. I'm so sorry. But what was I supposed to do? I'm an animal.

[Kay]

There's a raccoon out there right now hanging his head in shape.

[Sasha]

And this is. And you trespass.

[Kay]

Like if someone throws a pizza into your living room, you're probably gonna eat it.

[Sasha]

Probably

[Kay]

not. And I don't mean to make light of like this person's suffering, but like just, just, just to take the metaphor to the obvious conclusion. Yeah, if someone throws a pizza, if a raccoon throws a pizza into your living room, you're going to eat it.

[Sasha]

I'm sharing it with a raccoon for sure. That's what we're gonna do.

[Kay]

100%.

[Sasha]

So no shade to the animals. I'm just saying it's a fact. So the cops now take everything back with them from this ravine. And now it's up to the science. And like the science is go. If these scenes are connected and science says yes.

[Joe Kenda]

When you use a tool like a saw,

[Sasha]

what it does is it causes

[Joe Kenda]

markings on both sides, the torso and the neck. Once you have the head and the torso and you can reunite them, where the saw was, where it cut through is going to match on either side.

[Kay]

And they're able to connect the bottom part of the body to the top part of the body through, like through the saw blades.

[Sasha]

Right. So the skull they found belongs to the same body that they have in the morgue, the torso from the field.

[Kay]

They also see, because now they've got the skull, that there's a huge chunk of the skull missing on the right side. So Dr. Kramer, the coroner determines that this was caused by a gunshot wound, which explains how the, how the John Doe died.

[Sasha]

So I'm thinking, who is this person and is this case connected to Victor Woods? Now right on time. We go back to the Victor woods story.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

Did he take a cab home? So they're calling all the local cab companies. He did not take a cab home. But one of the gals driving a taxi has information. I just want to say something.

[Kay]

One of the small bone, weak minded

[Sasha]

little ladies driving a cab as a woman be extremely dangerous for a woman, especially in the 80s. So maybe let's not infantilize her when she has valuable information. I know the case that you wouldn't have without her.

[Kay]

Well, and we're just, we're just getting started because according to Kenda, there's one specific reason why she has this information, right?

[Sasha]

So. But, well, she was in the parking lot of the bar and is a witness to something very important because she says she was there when the bar fight was happening in the parking lot. And it started inside, poured into the parking lot after the fight was over. This witness says someone went up to Victor and this guy, and Victor went into the mystery guy's car.

[Kay]

Now, according to Kenda, this lady cannot get over how fucking hot, right? The guy was that went up to Victor.

[Joe Kenda]

He's incredibly good looking, movie star, handsome world, her words. And he has a tan, a magnificent suntan. People notice things that are out of the ordinary. It's the middle of winter. Where'd he get a suntan?

[Sasha]

So two things. It's the middle of winter. Where did this guy get a tan?

[Kay]

Right? But like, I just want to say Kenda describes this woman as drooling, like,

[Sasha]

I don't, I don't buy that.

[Kay]

Of course not. The only reason, according to Kenda, that this woman paid any attention to this guy, like she's the key witness in this whole thing, is because he was hot. No, this lady is a cabbie who has to have eyes in the back of her head to stay the fuck alive. And that's why she's got like smart instincts. She's like, something is going on here. She paid attention and she's helping your investigation, Ken.

[Sasha]

And most importantly, the car was one of those fuck ass, loud ass cars. Yeah, it was super loud. Just like the car the Olympic athletes told us about. A woman, also a woman.

[Kay]

And you know, when this piece of shit turned on his, what do they call it, a muscle car? You know, she rolled her eyes. You know, that cabbie was like, oh,

[Sasha]

God, don't like that.

[Kay]

Nobody likes.

[Sasha]

It's annoying. It irritates me. It's a day ruiner and Fiona hates it. I know all the dogs hate it. I've been walking Fiona and all the dogs and humans are startled. It's annoying.

[Kay]

Can I just say one more thing about the good looks on this guy? I feel like this is Kenda alleged good look. Well, we'll go there when we go through. But she looks away from me. She can't even look at me.

[Sasha]

Ugly from within.

[Kay]

But I feel like this is Kenda taking the opportunity for him to give. Because Kenda says it again. Kenda is going to like, describe him

[Sasha]

as, say 800 more times.

[Kay]

It's unbelievable. That's all.

[Sasha]

Okay, Kenda focusing on all the wrong kind of details.

[Kay]

Exactly.

[Sasha]

The car is a blue Trans Am.

[Kay]

Okay, back to the good details.

[Sasha]

Let's track it down because whoever's driving it is our main suspect now. So let's fucking find.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Meanwhile, back in Pueblo, we have, like, the unidentified body that now we've connected to these two horrible things that happened. Yeah, but this guy, Sergeant Roger Gomez, has no idea about Victor Woods. Like, he doesn't know the Victor woods case exists. But us, the viewers, were like, well, this has to be connected somehow. Why are we here?

[Kay]

There's a lot of objectification of the men in this. Because one of our men says to us, when this body was found, the torso was found, the body was very muscular, which indicated that this person worked out a lot. Meaning this person worked out a lot.

[Sasha]

Yeah, a lot. Right. Okay, so now let's go into that scene, I guess the workout scene. I guess they're trying to, like, connect the dots.

[Kay]

My thing was like, God, if something this tragic ever happens to me, can they just be like, well, he had. He had a little bit of muscle on him. You know what I mean? What a nice thing to say about.

[Sasha]

I saw this meme. I don't know if it's fake or not, but someone did, like 48 hours, I think, did an episode where the thing they said about someone that was like, she loved eating chicken wings at state fairs or something, and I saw the TikTok and the person was like, can we not 48 hours? Like, there was nothing else you could have said about this person.

[Kay]

I thought you were going to do the Dateline. Do you like eating chicken wings at Safe Fair? Let us know.

[Sasha]

Have you ever ate chicken wings with someone? Have you ever had chicken wings with someone? Have you ever worked in the same line of work as your parents?

[Kay]

Totally. Yes, totally.

[Sasha]

We don't have time.

[Kay]

Oh, my God. I had to guide Gold. Somebody dumped like, a box of chicken wing bones, like, in front of our apartment the other night.

[Sasha]

I think that was a tragedy for them. I don't think they dumped it. I think something happened to them.

[Kay]

You're right.

[Sasha]

And then suddenly the chicken wings are on the ground. And then like an asshole. They didn't clean it up.

[Kay]

They didn't clean it up. And, like, that is like. Like that's all dogs want.

[Sasha]

It's so dangerous too, because right down the throat. It's bad. Like, cut to you reaching down the

[Kay]

throat out of his mouth at four in the morning when I woke up,

[Sasha]

did everyone feel that? That was my eye Roll if you felt like, oh, what was that?

[Kay]

4am Time to take the dog out and save his goddamn life.

[Sasha]

Yeah. No, it's the worst thing to. For a dog to pick up on the.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

It's so bad. So we meet Glenn Ferguson. He walks into Sgt. Gomez's office to report a missing person named Paul Vasika. He's been missing four months. And I'm like, for months?

[Kay]

I know, months. What the fudge took so long to report him missing?

[Sasha]

So Paul is Glenn's stepson. Paul is a bodybuilder.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

And so his sister Robin says he was a really great guy and unfortunately he recently started running with the wrong crowd. Now what does that mean?

[Joe Kenda]

She says, yes, yes. Paul has always been a bodybuilder. Works out constantly, became interested in steroids and that led him down a path of the use of drugs. And he got involved in drug running.

[Kay]

According to the sister Robin, this got him involved in quote, drug running.

[Sasha]

And he was in way over his head.

[Kay]

Way over.

[Sasha]

He was just in a lot of danger. It's just not a good. The steroids. It never leads to anything good.

[Kay]

And can I just say, Robin's like, Paul was in way over his head. There was one guy in particular that Paul would hang out with.

[Sasha]

He was very good looking, but also a total nightmare. So I'm like, movie star looks, you say? And a tan and a nightmare. That's what the badass lady in the cab driver said.

[Kay]

Kenda jumps in to say he was movie star. Pretty Kev. Da.

[Sasha]

But then.

[Kay]

Is there something you wanna tell us, Joe?

[Sasha]

No. But then like, here's the worst. I think if we're rating My my mys. Yeah, this is. He goes, my, my, my, you've been busy, Mr. Good Looking Tan Guy. And I'm like, that's the best we can do. I know. We've been sitting on this case since 1988. And he sounds like Phoebe Buffay.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

He's like Mr. Good Looking Tan guy. And I'm like, that's what we got.

[Kay]

It's also the only one. My, my, my. We get in the whole episode.

[Sasha]

I think he. It's one every time I think you can't do, then it loses its.

[Kay]

I guess you're right. Well, my, my, my.

[Sasha]

50 years in the making. This is what we have. Good looking tan guy.

[Kay]

I know,

[Sasha]

girl.

[Kay]

Butcherbox is back. It is summertime. It is grilling time and fam. ButcherBox delivers 100% grass fed beef, organic chicken, wild caught seafood and more. All source to standards. They can actually tell you about. Yeah.

[Sasha]

They've already done the research and made the tough sourcing decisions. So all you have to do is decide what's for dinner.

[Kay]

Literally. We have a full freezer full of salmon, steak, pork shoulder ribs every night. It's like a. It's like a meat wonderland.

[Sasha]

Yeah. And everyone wants to make sure, I mean, at least where I am, that, like, I want to do the right thing.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

I don't want to go to some, like, shady place. And especially with the seafood, like, the salmon is so fresh and so good and, you know, like, it doesn't smell fishy. Yes, it does. It's just so fresh.

[Kay]

When we switched from grocery store to butcherbox, it was, like, literally night and day.

[Sasha]

Yeah. So good.

[Kay]

So, fam. If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give butcherbox a try.

[Sasha]

Go to ButcherBox.com TV TCO and get 20 bucks off your first box, plus your choice of free ground beef for life or free chicken thighs or top sirloins in every box for a year with free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com TCO Again, that's butcherbox.com TCO Be sure to use our link so they know we sent you.

[Kay]

Don't make her say it again, fam.

[Sasha]

Now, on top of all of this, like, it can't get any worse, we have a robbery. Yeah. And a security guard and a desk clerk have been shot at the Hampton Inn. The desk clerk is named Raymond Garcia. He was killed. The security guard, Robert Martinez, survived. And we're here with Raymond, the one who was killed, his sister and his cousin.

[Kay]

His sister Lori, is just, like, sobbing. George, the cousin, is just going on and on about how, like, amazing he was, like, killed in, like, the prime of his youth. Like, he was just such a good guy. And we even learn Ray was supposed to be working, like, five days before,

[Sasha]

and he switched with the girl because

[Kay]

it was her birthday. So they switched, and he was there the wrong time.

[Sasha]

But that was him. He would do whatever for anybody.

[Kay]

Raymond wasn't supposed to be working that night. He was. He picked up a shift for a woman that he worked with because it was her birthday. And Lori's like, that's just the kind of guy that he was. And I'm like, that. Like, the tragedy that happened to Raymond is just beyond awful. Like, that poor guy, the poor family. The woman who was supposed to be working that night has probably lived with survivor's guilt every minute of her life ever since.

[Sasha]

It's awful. All around. And then, like, if. If Raymond didn't take the shift, he would have felt bad that he didn't, because it's a tragedy across the board, no matter what.

[Kay]

And we learned the security guard who survived this guy's name is Robert Martinez. He's being treated at the hospital. And Kenda tells us, like, he's the only witness. There is nobody else. There was nobody in the lobby. There was nobody milling around like, this Martinez security guard is our best shot at getting a description of this guy. But he's, like, in the hospital in critical, unstable condition.

[Sasha]

Shot in the jaw in the.

[Kay]

He was meant to be killed.

[Sasha]

I mean, like.

[Kay]

Like, the killer, like, thought that. That he killed him.

[Sasha]

So now we learn about the Rocky Mountain Information Network that Joe kend is taking 100% credit for. But fine. I think it's great because it was developed in the 70s. It's like, basically a database. It's a way for law enforcement to share information with other jurisdictions, which is kind of amazing.

[Kay]

Like, if they could have done this in the Pacific Northwest, maybe we could have gotten Bundy before he killed other people.

[Sasha]

Great number of people.

[Kay]

You know what I mean?

[Sasha]

Also, you could search, like, cut on hand. Yes, on right hand. Like, you can search things and you can share information for kind of, like, weird things that might connect a case to another one.

[Kay]

It's also like, this is the pre. Computer age. Like, the agencies were working really hard to make this happen. Like, it's a pretty amazing thing that does like, really good work here.

[Sasha]

And then sort of, I guess it stopped. And then we don't do that anymore, right?

[Kay]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Sasha]

So this robbery slash murder, slash attempted murder is reported in the network. And Joe Kendall was like, I was obsessed with this thing. I was, like, adamant that I get every alert that has ever happened in any location ever, just in case. And so he gets this alert for the Hampton Inn robbery.

[Kay]

And he's like, thinking, like, this has to be our guy also.

[Sasha]

Who robs a Hampton Inn?

[Kay]

Well, but that.

[Sasha]

Can you have. Can you have a lot of money there? No.

[Kay]

Right. And, like, this is even, like, I don't know exactly when the credit card made its debut or whatever. But, like, you know, I remember working in services. I did for almost 20 years. Like, cash was like, when I was a bartender in, like, the early 2000s, you'd still get a fair amount of cash. By the time I stopped being a bartender in, like, 2010, there was, like, almost no cash. Everybody's paying for everything with credit cards.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

And so like, that's how hotels work, too. Like everybody's paying for everything with credit cards. So this killer, made away with only $500 in cash, was willing to kill two people for $500. Like that's how desperate and sick this person is.

[Sasha]

Well, guess what? Robert Martinez, the security guard who was shot in the jaw, is awake. He's okay. He survived.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

And he has valuable information.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

So he says he walks into the Hampton Inn. He sees the armed robbery in progress. And he says the gunman notices him, the security guard, and says, I'm gonna kill you. And then shoots him in the face.

[Kay]

Yeah. So then he, like, falls over. He's semi conscious. He's not dead. He said he heard the man walk into the other room where Raymond Garcia was and he heard the shot.

[Joe Kenda]

At the end of that conversation with Martinez, Martinez said the last thing he remembered is he heard a muscle car drive off.

[Kay]

He hears the fatal shot.

[Sasha]

And that ass, Loud ass car.

[Kay]

Yes, yes, exactly.

[Sasha]

Even in. In this horrible moment where he's traumatized, he hears ringing. He can. He's barely awake. He hears the. That stupid car.

[Kay]

The fucking mother.

[Sasha]

What a loser.

[Kay]

I know, I know. And so now they got to find the car. So they send patrols out, running the entire length of I25. This is where they tell us from Mexico almost to Canada. It's like, guys, this isn't. This isn't the system. And then Kenda, where APB is. Not a thing yet.

[Sasha]

I don't know.

[Kay]

You know what I mean?

[Sasha]

Kenda says the worst thing he says in this whole documentary.

[Kay]

What's he say?

[Sasha]

He goes, well, we have to go back to what the athletic girl said. Oh, she is an Olympic athlete.

[Kay]

I know she.

[Sasha]

She's an Olympic athlete.

[Kay]

You know that if he. When he. When he met her in interview, he

[Sasha]

called her sweetheart, 100%.

[Kay]

And like, sweetheart.

[Sasha]

I just. I don't know why they are constantly diminishing the women in the story, who, by the way, are always giving them very valuable information. The only athletic girl I know, the athletic Olympic athlete. How dare you?

[Kay]

And like, they delayed her Cheeto gratification.

[Sasha]

Are you kidding me?

[Kay]

You know what I mean?

[Sasha]

Anyway, guess what, everyone, it's all the same guy. That's why we're here.

[Kay]

Obviously, right now we learn there's a girlfriend. So the Pueblo cops get a call from a woman who has information on who did the Hampton Inn robbery. And she comes in and tells him about her piece of shit boyfriend, a guy named Ronald White. Now this is where we see this guy's picture for the first time. And I was so ready to be like, that guy's movie star. Oh, he kind of is.

[Sasha]

No, I don't. Keep going. We had it right the first time.

[Kay]

That guy's will. But, like, that's the only time I'm gonna say it. Like, this guy, at the very least. And I was thinking, like, I guess it doesn't take that much to stand out as kind of hot, because he's, like, just above average hot.

[Sasha]

That's why they're saying that, because he's a brutal murderer. So they want to keep saying he doesn't look like a murderer, but we're past that now, Kenda.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Like, we're. We know that evil people are everywhere, and they look all different ways.

[Kay]

They show us one picture of him where I'm like, why didn't you just go be a model? Like, why did you have to do all of this?

[Sasha]

Because evil people are going to be evil.

[Kay]

I mean, and that's really true. Like, this guy is literally evil from the inside.

[Sasha]

But this woman says what every other woman has said. Yeah, maybe he looked like a movie star, if that helps you, Joe Kenda. But he was a fucking nightmare. And then this is where Kenda says

[Joe Kenda]

there is an old expression. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. It's been my experience that's very true. Ronald Lee White is about to learn this lesson.

[Sasha]

This is also tied for first with

[Kay]

the worst thing he said, Jaw on the floor.

[Sasha]

Diminishing her story number one. And because even though no one is talking about it, we see quick shots of the police report where it says that this guy broke into her house and raped her. So they're not gonna tell us that. They're just flashing it on the story. So while everyone is on their phones, we're missing.

[Kay]

But I'm like, why did they not want to. Like, that's a very. Why. Why don't we get to know that?

[Sasha]

Then Kenda has the nerve to say, well, now it's time to arrest him for murder. Not an attempted murder, but not the rape.

[Kay]

Right.

[Sasha]

And like, this docu. I think it's insane, and I think that this documentary didn't have the decency to make it clear what he did. And this very brave woman is coming forward, like, and helping them solve the case. Because without her, we wouldn't know who this guy is or have a name.

[Kay]

Right?

[Sasha]

So then to throw like, hell hath no no fury like a woman scored. She was raped.

[Kay]

I know. And by the way, he says, and in my experience, that's true. Kenda, can somebody get eyes on Mrs. Kendall? Who doesn't get a first name?

[Sasha]

He just said, I just. I almost destroyed my family, but a man's got to do what a man's got to do. And I'm like, okay, so he loves

[Kay]

cars more than his family.

[Sasha]

Patriarchy, man. Every time.

[Kay]

I know.

[Sasha]

So the cops arrest this piece of shit.

[Kay]

The girlfriend gives an address, they go there.

[Sasha]

We're only saying the girlfriend because she. We don't know her name. And like, I think, again, she was very brave to come forward. How were going to get his name without her?

[Kay]

No worries. No. They were going to drive up I25 for 5,000 miles.

[Sasha]

Third woman in a row to give them information that they didn't have before.

[Kay]

Also, like, this piece of shit coward is taken without a fight. I would like. There was something about it that I was just like, fudgeing. Typical.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Kay]

You know, like, I'm so glad that he was. But it was like, like he. He presents like such a tough guy. And, like, the cops show up. He literally turns around and just puts his hands behind his back.

[Sasha]

Nothing says coward, loser. Like the loudest car on the street. Merch.

[Kay]

Do we get that? Can we get that at Merch, please?

[Sasha]

Today? Is anyone really, really? Ask yourself, anyone in the. In the history of the world ever heard a fuck ass, loud ass car like that and went, ooh, no.

[Kay]

Right?

[Sasha]

That guy must be confident, secure.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Makes a ton of money, never mansplains.

[Kay]

Totally.

[Sasha]

No, you're like, what a loser. Shut up.

[Kay]

Fucking loser.

[Sasha]

You're ruining everyone's five minutes. At the very least, maybe everyone's day.

[Kay]

And so, like, this is where Kenda tells us he gets guy's crime record.

[Joe Kenda]

He says he has a criminal history. You can measure in pounds for violent crimes, sex crimes, narcotics, you name it. He's involved in it in huge ways, in huge numbers.

[Kay]

In huge ways and in huge numbers. Like, this is a really, really bad guy.

[Sasha]

Two examples.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

One of the two times he was in prison, he beat another inmate almost to death with a sledgehammer. And it took six guards to pull him off. And I'm like, and then you let him walk among us.

[Kay]

That's what I'm saying. Like, one of the two. The first time, he beat this guy almost to death with a sledgehammer, but they let him out anyway. What.

[Sasha]

Another example is that allegedly he comes across someone, like the killer.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

Sees someone being arrested, and the person is resisting arrest. And then I'm like, cool. So he walks up and shoots the person in the head because he wants to, like, help the cop because he's so pro cop. And kills the guy. I couldn't find anything about this.

[Kay]

Okay. Because I was like. But then there was no consequences for this.

[Sasha]

It's an insane thing to include without any information or evidence or follow up to what happened.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

So I don't know how true the story is. I couldn't find anything on it.

[Kay]

Can we trust you or can we not trust you?

[Sasha]

And also, I didn't need any of these things to know that I hate this guy. Either of these two examples.

[Kay]

Totally.

[Sasha]

And the examples actually make law enforcement look like a bunch of weakling assholes. So they just. It took six guys to pull him off in prison. And then he got out of prison and he's walking among us to rape people and have violent crimes. And then he, like, is so pro cop, he was like, oh, let me kill this guy for you, bro. And what you just said thank you, and let him on his way.

[Kay]

Let him. Just let him go in his muscle car.

[Sasha]

What are we doing here?

[Kay]

What are we doing here? I don't even.

[Sasha]

I can't even trust that this happened.

[Kay]

So he's being questioned about the Hampton robbery. He says, like, this guy wants to tell his story. This guy's not trying to. Literally can't wait.

[Joe Kenda]

He tells Carsono he's had the gun, Bought it in Denver, kept in his glove box. He needed it for a rainy day. Oh, really? What's your definition of a rainy day, Mr. White?

[Kay]

Kept it in his glove box for a rainy day.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Confirms that Robert Martinez, the security guard who survived everything Robert said was true.

[Kay]

Yeah. He literally says he killed him because he was offended. The security guard walked in in the middle of the armed robbery, didn't have the decency to pull his gun on the guy. Although in the newspaper account, it said that the killer said to the security guard, I know you have a gun. Don't even go for it. So what the fuck is the trut true story here?

[Sasha]

Exactly. Basically, we learned that this guy is just. Is just a murderous rapist piece of shit. Like, there is no why for this other than he wanted to kill people

[Kay]

and brag about it. Because the Pueblo cops. Because now it's Kenda's turn to go interview him. And the Pueblo cops say if this guy killed Victor Wood, he'll confess because he loves to see the look on your face when he confesses.

[Sasha]

And that's what happened because, like, he definitely killed Victor woods, too.

[Kay]

Kenda goes into interrogate him, and he gives us, like, he sets the whole whole scene for us. And he says, he sits down and he's trying to build a rapport with him. He's like, what do you like to be called? He's like, call me Ronnie. And he's like, call me Joe. He's like, great. Like, we've established a rapport. Kenda asks him if he smokes. This guy looks up at the sign on the wall and says, well, I do, but there's a sign that says no smoking. I'm like, this is the rule you're

[Sasha]

going to follow, the one thing. And Kenda's like, don't worry. I got your back.

[Kay]

Kenda literally goes, I kind of run this place. Kenda describes putting the cigarette in his mouth.

[Joe Kenda]

And I said, oh, you need light, don't you? And I kind of left. Yeah. He said, you know, so I threw the lighter at him. When he opened his hand, there's a pink scar running across his palm.

[Kay]

Tossing him a lighter so he can flash the look at the palm. I'm like, kenda, we know it was him. How much of this are we supposed to believe?

[Sasha]

And this is when Kenda's like, bet you got that scar when you killed Victor woods, didn't you? And the guy's like, that's exactly how I got it. Want to hear what I did?

[Kay]

He cannot wait to tell his story.

[Sasha]

And Kenda didn't have to ask anything else. He just starts monologuing. He asked that. He was asked that one question. He's off and running. And what he says is, it's just horrible. Like, Victor woods was at the bar. This bar fight happened. The killer jumps at the chance to offer Victor a ride home.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

And does. And, like, brutally murders Victor woods at his home for no reason. None of these have any rhyme or reason at all. No motivation, nothing.

[Kay]

Kenda has said that kind of throughout, like, this is the only serial killer Kenda's ever met in his life. And he's like, the thing that's terrifying about serial killers is they don't need, like, the kill is the thrill. They don't need a reason. I was thinking about, like, Israel and how he would, like, fly 500 miles and drive 600 miles so that he would be, like, he could never be connected back to the crime.

[Sasha]

And also, like, Paul Vasika, the torso that was found by the rancher, and then we found then his full body. I didn't mean to just describe him as the torso. I'M just got a lot of stories here at once. But Paul's sister Robin told them about the steroids and the dangerous crowd and like the drug dealing. And so Paul knew the killer. They did drugs together, they sold drugs together, and they get in a fight

[Kay]

over $1,500 because the killer believed that Paul stol. $1,500.

[Sasha]

It's like a drug fueled paranoia that definitely didn't happen.

[Kay]

And then they described the killing. This is his friend, his lifelong friend. These guys grew up together. He drives him out to that remote area where he gets him on his knees at gunpoint to his head and tortured him for an hour.

[Sasha]

And he tells the story like it was nothing. Cause to him it was nothing.

[Kay]

It was nothing.

[Sasha]

It was an evil piece of shit.

[Kay]

Yes.

[Sasha]

And so the killer says, I've killed so many people, I don't even remember them all. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not.

[Joe Kenda]

Not.

[Sasha]

Yeah, but Candace, like, there's no reason not to believe him. Like, Candace says he's the most evil person he's ever met.

[Kay]

Yeah, yeah. Kenda says that he thinks he's good for like 15 murders.

[Sasha]

Yeah, I. I would believe that, sure.

[Kay]

But ultimately, Candace, like, well, it doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove. And so, you know, they go to court and this white guy pleads guilty, white being his last name, pleads guilty to the murder of Victor Woods, Raymond Garcia, Paul Vasika, and the attempted murder of Mr. Martinez, the security guard. Because they were the only four cases that they could prove that he was involved.

[Sasha]

And he like, happily confess. And now he's screaming at everyone in

[Joe Kenda]

the courtroom and he says to everybody, I'll kill all of you sons of. And I'll kill your kids too. And everybody in this room is recoiling

[Sasha]

from this guy, threatening to kill their kids and smirking at the victim's families

[Kay]

calling the judge a stupid son of a. When the judge gives him a life sentence, he's like, I don't want life. I want to be killed.

[Sasha]

How. How many times do we have to say it? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. You're going to rot in prison before you rot in hell, you ugly, insecure fucking loser.

[Kay]

It's hell's waiting room, girl. You know what I mean?

[Sasha]

Bye. Hope you wait there forever. Can't wait for you to rot for eternity.

[Kay]

Okay.

[Sasha]

I hope you're miserable.

[Kay]

Oh, my God. We did. Homicide Hunter. Devil in the Mountains Wild fam. Don't forget to join us on the YouTube. Over 550,000 YouTube subscribers. It's insane. Our YouTube is so fun. It's so wild. We have a really good time over there. It's true crime obsessed podcast on the tube of you. Yep. We've got a Patreon.

[Sasha]

Tell them we have a Patreon. It's a party over there. We have ad free versions of these episodes. We also have like the series, the long form series, like 2, 3, 4,

[Kay]

5 episodes over like 400 full ad free bonus episodes. Not even including the bonus. The ad free versions of these episodes. It's like these are just the bonus episodes we do every Friday, which by the way we do every week.

[Sasha]

Yeah. And we do like ama's after parties. We take your questions, we give you advice to take with a grain of salt.

[Kay]

We have with a grain of salt for sure. We have a tier where we send you things in the mail sometimes and we're sending out pride cocktail shakers for the month of June.

[Sasha]

That is also the tier where we do things like the Top Model documentary that we couldn't do on the regular feed. So we'll do like special episodes just for the hero bells.

[Kay]

We did all three episodes of Top Model in one episode for the hero bell.

[Sasha]

You want to tell them what we're doing? Remind me the Michael Jackson the verdict.

[Kay]

We're going to do the Michael Jackson

[Sasha]

thing after 10 years.

[Kay]

Yeah.

[Sasha]

We have never unpacked the Michael Jackson of it all.

[Kay]

And the reason we're doing it on the hero belts here is because it doesn't. We don't have time to do it on the like you've been saying Patreon, stacked. We are stacked through the fall. You said at least we wanted to get it done. We're going to do it there. What are we doing next on the regs?

[Sasha]

So we are doing. It's an episode of 2020, but it's the Yogurt Shop Murders.

[Joe Kenda]

Oh.

[Sasha]

So this is season 48, episode 18. This contains the most recent updates on the case. It's the most cohesive thing. To our point about Patreon, there was a multi part series on HBO that was not fully cohesive and then like another episode dropped. So instead of doing five episodes like we said, we don't have time on the page. But we're going to do this 2020 episode. That is great. Tells you everything. It ends, you know, we, we get the truth at the end. So we're doing that. Season 48. Season 48.

[Kay]

Can you do me a quick favor?

[Sasha]

Episode 18. Yes.

[Kay]

Can you look into this camera? This girl is working so hard for you on our goddamn schedule. She thinks about it. No, she thinks about it every day. Every week.

[Sasha]

I think about it every day.

[Kay]

Stacking this shit all the time. Finding the most recent, most comprehensive shit. Send her a dm, telling her that you love her.

[Sasha]

Oh, I'll tell you what else. Thank you for that. I'll tell you what else. We're doing the shooting at Hawthorne Hill. And we're doing Maternal Instinct.

[Kay]

Oh, maternal. I think I just watched.

[Sasha]

We're doing them all. I'm trying to move things around. We're doing Worst Ex Ever with the fucking Deadpool guy. We're doing it all. I promise. We're doing it all. But we have, like, things that are stacked, and I don't want things to get outdated. But I know we have to move things around. So I'm doing my best. I promise. We're doing it.

[Kay]

We are.

[Sasha]

I know about it.

[Kay]

I watched it an episode a day

[Sasha]

at this point, you know, like. But I swear, I swear. So all of that is coming your way. Like, I'm not moving Hawthorne Hill and I'm not moving Maternity because we gotta get to it. We gotta do this yogurt shop murders. Cause that got bought. Anyway, love you all. I'm doing my best for you. I really, really am. I promise, I promise, I promise.

[Kay]

All right, fam. We love you.

[Sasha]

We love you. Stay safe, please.

[Kay]

All right. Bye.

[Sasha]

Bye. Fix your muffler. Get a muffler. Shut up your stupid car. We believe that it was business as usual. The shift started about 7 o'.

[Kay]

Clock. It was set to close around 11pm

[Sasha]

Two of the girls had left to go to the mall and were coming to the yogurt shop.

[Kay]

They were going to have a big slumber party, a big sleepover.

[Sasha]

It's Friday night. They're wanting to get out of there. The girls were all picking up, cleaning up the yogurt store. Something horrific and evil was about to walk in that door. They were supposed to be home by 11, but they were already dead by 11.