518: Untold: The Shooting at Hawthorne Hill

Summary

True Crime Obsessed

Episode 518: “Untold: The Shooting at Hawthorne Hill”

Release Date: August 11, 2026
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, the TCO crew dives into the true crime documentary “Untold: The Shooting at Hawthorne Hill” from the Netflix Untold series. The documentary covers the fallout of a shocking attempted murder at a New Jersey horse farm—the world of competitive dressage and the toxic, entitled personalities at its core. With their signature humor and candor, Jill, Chloe, Lauren, and Michael recap the twisted story, dissecting the feud between Olympian Michael Barisone and dressage rider Lauren Kanarek, both of whom claim to be the victim, and neither of whom seem entirely trustworthy. The hosts keep it real on entitlement, class, mental health, and why sometimes everyone (except the horses) sucks.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Players and the Setting

• Incident: On August 7, 2019, at Hawthorne Hill farm in NJ, Olympian Michael Barisone shot dressage rider Lauren Kanarek—a violent act that shocked the insular, wealthy equestrian world.
• Initial tone: “Everyone here sucks except the horses” repeats throughout the recap (01:07, 01:40, 23:26, 71:55).
• Wealth and Entitlement: Dressage characterized as “the sport of kings”—over-the-top expensive, deeply privileged, and accessible only to the ultra-rich (15:14, 16:12).
• Main Cast:
  • Michael Barisone — Former Olympian and dressage coach.
  • Lauren Kanarek — Wealthy, demanding client with six horses, described by all sides as "entitled," abrasive, and combative.
  • Mary Haskins — Michael’s girlfriend and staff coach, often caught in the crossfire.
  • Lauren’s Father — Bankrolling everything, enabling the drama.

2. Breakdown of Events and Relationship Dynamics

• Toxic Dynamics: Both Michael and Lauren are painted as unreliable narrators, perpetually aggrieved, and equally eager to escalate the drama (03:03, 11:18, 29:06, 29:14).
  • Quote: “Michael and Lauren are too similar. They love the drama.” – Jill (29:14)
• The Horse (JT): Became the symbol of their feud; both sides contradict how Lauren came to own JT and why the sale happened at a bargain price (19:09–21:14).
• Abuse of Privilege: Lauren lambastes her husband and staff, is constantly belittling, and once asks a horse to “blink once if you have a puffy foot”—the hosts roast her as ridiculous and oblivious (13:33, 13:43).
• Online Warfare: Lauren takes the battle public—posting long, unhinged, chess-themed rants about “the king,” “the imposter queen,” and “castles crumbling,” fueling a toxic environment (32:27, 34:22, 35:35).

3. Escalation and Foreshadowing Violence

• Cycle of Escalation:
  • Lauren posts aggressive Facebook rants; Michael and Mary remain (mostly) silent, which only infuriates Lauren more (32:24–34:36).
  • Restraining orders and 911 calls start flying; Lauren and her boyfriend begin secretly recording all conversations, which is illegal in New Jersey (42:09–46:56).
• Relentlessness: The hosts repeatedly ask why no one—particularly Michael—simply evicts Lauren, observing his possible financial desperation (41:08, 66:51).
• Psychological Toll: Michael is described as spiraling, sleep-deprived, and paranoid, while Lauren seems to thrive on the chaos (45:54).
• The Pink Gun: A client, Ruth Cox, brings a pink-splattered 9mm on site “for safety” days before the assault; the weapon is later used in the shooting (49:27, 57:04).

4. The Shooting & Aftermath

• Day of Shooting: After a tense CPS visit triggered by Lauren’s allegations, Michael claims he blacked out during a panic attack and then shot Lauren twice, also wounding her boyfriend, Rob (52:24–55:01).
• Aftermath:
  • Lauren miraculously survives, but her first thought after waking in the hospital is vengeance: “I cannot wait to get to court and testify against this son of a bitch.” (57:24)
  • Michael acts deeply disturbed during trial, rocking and acting unrecognizable; the hosts call the performance “borderline offensive” (61:08–61:51).
• The Blame Game Continues: Both sides continue to frame themselves as the victim, revisiting every grievance on camera.

5. Legal Proceedings & The Insanity Defense

• The Insanity Plea: Michael’s defense claims Lauren’s relentless harassment drove him temporarily insane—a psychiatric defense only successful in about 1% of felony cases, famously denied even to Dahmer and Gacy (00:04, 58:50).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “Even Jeffrey Dahmer did not get off on the insanity defense. Same with John Wayne Gacy.” – Chloe (00:06, 58:54)
  • “Michael made a lot of choices.” – Prosecutor Chris (62:59)
• Jury Verdict: Shocking outcome—Michael found “not guilty by reason of insanity,” a rare legal outcome (69:03).
  • “I screamed. I couldn’t believe it.” – Chloe (69:16)
  • Michael spends a year in psychiatric care, then walks free (70:12).

6. Takeaways, Moralizing, and Sass

• Lesson (if any): “Everyone is awful, except the horses.” The hosts take no sides, repeatedly observing that these are “two privileged, self-absorbed maniacs who thrive on chaos—this is all they have” (71:20).
• Don’t Engage:
  • “If you’re going to spew crazy shit and lies... Stay out of it. They will move on eventually.” – Jill (35:59–36:12)
  • “The lesson here: don’t engage. Oh, my God.” – Chloe (72:06)
• Final Updates:
  • December 2025: Michael is banned by SafeSport for sexual harassment and misconduct (71:31).
  • Both Michael and Lauren, at episode’s end, are still obsessed with paperwork and grievances; neither has moved on (70:39–71:16).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the world of dressage:

  • “Everyone sucks except the horses.” – Jill (01:10, repeated throughout)
  • “It’s called the sport of kings… You have to be insanely rich to participate in this.” – Chloe (15:14, 16:12)
  • “A cheap horse is 50 grand!” – Jill (15:59)

• On entitlement and family dynamics:

  • “Lauren can pay $20,000 for JT.” – Lauren’s dad, via text, quoted by Jill (22:07)
  • “Entitled is a good word to describe that.” – Jill (22:42)
  • “We never meet a single friend of hers. Not even her husband is here to say she’s great.” – Chloe (24:36)

• On the feud’s escalation:

  • “If I can’t explain in one sentence what these two people are mad at, then it’s bullshit.” – Jill (43:09)
  • “Everyone is in danger here.” – Jill, quoting Lauren’s Facebook post (50:54)

• On legal proceedings and insanity:

  • “This is clear that a psychiatric defense is something that I should definitely look into.” – Michael’s lawyer (00:00, 58:46)
  • “Not guilty by reason of insanity.” – Jury Foreman (69:03)
  • “He is literally unrecognizable—rocking, trying to cry. It’s borderline offensive.” – Chloe (61:02)
  • “You were posting things daily, correct?… Once a homewrecker, always a homewrecker.” – Lauren, on the stand (64:14)

• On “lessons”:

  • “If one of them acted like an adult for two seconds, we would not have this documentary.” – Jill (71:04)
  • “They love it. This is all they have. And Lara’s roped into it now.” – Jill (71:20)

• On Michael’s final fate:

  • “Freedom to nobody. There’s nobody [outside prison].” – Chloe (70:12)

---

Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:44] – Introduction: The shooting and the documentary’s overview
• [15:14–17:14] – Dressage as “sport of kings”; barriers of wealth
• [19:09–21:14] – The JT horse saga and conflicting stories
• [29:06–34:36] – Personality analysis; how both Michael and Lauren thrive on drama
• [32:27–35:35] – Facebook posts, “the chess game,” and public escalation
• [42:09–46:56] – Escalation to secret recordings and police calls
• [52:24–55:01] – The shooting incident as recounted by both sides
• [58:50–59:11] – Explaining the insanity defense (and how rare it is)
• [61:02–61:51] – Describing Michael’s courtroom performance
• [69:03] – Jury verdict: “Not guilty by reason of insanity”
• [71:31] – Aftermath: Banned by SafeSport; the paper trail of grievances continues

---

Final Thoughts / Host Tone

• The entire retelling is laced with humor and irreverence (“I hate everyone except the horses” is a running refrain), but the hosts do not dismiss the seriousness of the violence.
• Jill and Chloe in particular stress that legal insanity is rarely valid, and even when life pushes you to the brink “you can’t just shoot someone.”
• The hosts lament both the lack of accountability and the broader systemic failings—enabled entitlement, toxic dynamics, weak boundaries, and institutional inaction.
• In the end, they urge, “Don’t engage! Walk away! Everyone here is a nightmare, but especially don’t traumatize the fucking horses.” (72:06, paraphrased)

---

Takeaway

A wild, complicated collision of privilege, obsession, and unchecked entitlement leads to violence—a “true crime” where even after court, no one really learns or changes. Only the horses deserve our sympathy.

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[Jill]

This is clear that a psychiatric defense is something that I should definitely look into.

[Chloe]

It's so funny because we learn here that this, like, insanity defense, it's raised in only 1% of all felony cases in the country. Even Jeffrey Dahmer did not get off on the insanity offense. Same with John Wayne Gacy. And I said, well, maybe they just don't think that gay people can be crazy.

[Jill]

Well, they can't be.

[Chloe]

You looked right at me.

[Jill]

They can be.

[Lauren]

Hi.

[Chloe]

Julia Betavali.

[Michael]

Hello.

[Jill]

Patrick Hines.

[Chloe]

Girl, what are we talking about?

[Jill]

Tonight, the untold series on Netflix. This is the shooting at Hawthorne Hill. A former US Olympian charged with two counts of attempted murder.

[Chloe]

His attorneys plan to argue the insanity defense.

[Lauren]

It was only about harassment, bullying, and abuse of power.

[Chloe]

Michael was driven over the edge by Lauren Cataract.

[Michael]

They are clients here at our horse stable. They're with a post. I'm not responsible for anything my other personalities do when they're threatened.

[Chloe]

This is bananas.

[Jill]

Yeah. Let me just say for the record before we start, I hate everyone except the horses.

[Chloe]

Yeah. The horses have done nothing wrong.

[Jill]

Everyone sucks except the horses. Yeah, everybody.

[Chloe]

I agree. So we get on screen text right at the beginning. It says, On August 7, 2019, a woman was shot on a horse farm in New Jersey. A violent act that rocked the sport of dressage. The parties involved remain entangled in the matter and are still in search of closure. Because everybody loves drama. That last part was added by me.

[Jill]

This is their story. Dun dun.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Yeah. The woman survives. Everyone here sucks.

[Chloe]

Everyone here sucks except the horses.

[Jill]

Can't be clear enough about that.

[Chloe]

The woman's name is Lauren. Karen. How do you say it?

[Jill]

Canorek.

[Chloe]

Lauren Kanarek. She's a dressage competitor.

[Lauren]

She tells us most people know by the time they're four or five years old if they're a horse person or not. I knew that when I was exactly that age. I'm a horse person.

[Chloe]

I knew at exactly that age.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Chloe]

Everybody likes horses. Everybody likes horses.

[Jill]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, like horses. We've done this before. They're beautiful, majestic beasts.

[Chloe]

Here's my. Here's what I wrote. I hate that horses have no say in the matter. Does anyone ever ask the horse if they're a human person?

[Jill]

You know, I have a lot of feelings about that in this. Like, we'll get into it. No, no one ever asks.

[Chloe]

The horses have no say in the matter. It's like you always say that sometimes good dogs happen to bad people all the time. Like bad hors horses.

[Jill]

I know what did you call them

[Chloe]

when I was talking about them pooping in the middle of 54th Street?

[Jill]

Majestic Beasts.

[Chloe]

They really are. And there is something especially like kids. Little kids love horses.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

You also have to be insanely rich to participate in this. We'll get there.

[Jill]

We'll get it.

[Chloe]

We'll get there. But it's like everybody likes horses. Lauren.

[Jill]

And Lauren says, look, you either love her or you hate her. And everyone uses the word entitled. Yes, everyone says that she's entitled. They always use the word entitled. But there is nothing about me that's entitled. I work very hard at what I do. To which I say, okay, there's nothing

[Chloe]

about you that's entitled.

[Jill]

Everything about you is entitled to.

[Chloe]

We meet your father. Yeah, I'm going to be speaking in that register a lot today.

[Jill]

She's.

[Chloe]

Lauren has six horses. Six.

[Jill]

Yes. She's very, very rich. Or her father is.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So Michael and Lauren meet in 2018. In March of 2018, Michael Barrison was on the 2008 Olympic dressage team. Lauren wants us to. To know. She makes it very clear. She says it a million times. Lauren doesn't care about Olympics, the Olympics. She just, like, is riding horses for the journey. She wants to ride every single day. She wants to learn as much as possible.

[Chloe]

Can I also say too, that, like, this whole documentary is intercut with moments of her just belittling the living shit out of her husband.

[Jill]

She's an asshole.

[Chloe]

She, like, we see her right before this moment. She's like, riding her horses around her stable or whatever, like, yelling at her

[Jill]

husband, rub, rub, rub, rub, rub.

[Chloe]

You're not folding that towel correctly. I'm going to have to recheck your work. This is the most emasculated man I have ever seen.

[Jill]

She's an asshole, but so is Michael.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

So Michael is currently a dressage trainer. And I'm like, what is dressage? Because I'm learning that horse dancing is wrong.

[Chloe]

I have heard. Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard that in dressage, like, the horse, in order to get them to do these dances, like, you have to injure them.

[Jill]

Well, okay. Dressage is French for training.

[Michael]

Dressage is based on horsemanship in the battlefield, where a horse had to learn to move sideways and forward and backward and obediently follow the commands of its rider. Everything has to be harmonious and rhythmical, and we have to instill those things in a horse first.

[Jill]

We're told it's all about the harmony and rhythm but it's very, very, very, very, very hard to train the horses to do that. And I'm like, well, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it, right. If it's not a natural thing that they like to do. And the whole, like, we have to break the horse to make. And I'm like, like, taking these wild horses and, like, breaking them. Look, I know a million times over. Sheltered, idiot New Yorker. I get it. I just.

[Chloe]

Kitty hex.

[Jill]

Right? But, like, I know that, like, we don't live in this world and we don't know anything about the treatment of these animals. But again, it's mostly about me just not enjoying seeing it or thinking about maybe they don't enjoy doing it.

[Chloe]

Well, it's because it's.

[Jill]

And that's gotta be okay, everybody.

[Chloe]

I'm sure that, like, this is maybe problematic, too, but it's like, what the horse wants more than anything is to be running free in a mountain. You know what I mean?

[Jill]

With, like, it's literally a song called Wild Horses.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Jill]

It's all about, like, maybe horses are meant to be wild and you shouldn't train them and break them. Like, maybe not.

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

Especially, like, I know horses are amazing workers. It's part of why they're so majestic and perfect. But, like, maybe they don't want to be dancing.

[Chloe]

Yeah. It's just, like, I understand that we live in an organized society and we've decided that this is okay or whatever, but, like, these horses are working and they're not getting paid.

[Jill]

No.

[Chloe]

These animals are performing at a level I certainly could not. I could barely walk sideways.

[Jill]

Barely.

[Chloe]

You know, like, barely.

[Jill]

I'm two stepping down the street, you

[Chloe]

know, golden does that. When golden walk, he doesn't go straight, but he moves, like, slightly on a diagonal. It's so he, like, never walks straight. He moves slightly on a diagonal. It's wild.

[Jill]

Is he the president?

[Michael]

Wow.

[Jill]

So Michael talks about the Olympics, and he's doing a lot of math.

[Michael]

25 Olympic Games in a century. Four people go on a dressage team. That means there's a maximum of 100 people in a century who represent their country at the Olympic Games in dressage.

[Lauren]

Ignition.

[Michael]

It's about the same size of the club who have written a rocket into space.

[Jill]

This is about the size of the club of people who have ridden a rocket into space. Michael, that is absolutely not true.

[Chloe]

How many people have gone on a rocket?

[Jill]

So his math is wrong for one.

[Chloe]

Does he mean, like, Americans or, like, is he saying, for the world?

[Jill]

Well, listen. Well, dressage has only been an olympic sport since 1912, and only military officers are allowed to do it. Civilians only entered the chat in 1953. So we're not talking about centuries. And as of April 2026, take a guess as to how many humans have

[Chloe]

flown in space, including Katy Perry and Gayle King. So including Katy Perry and Gayle King,

[Jill]

April 2026, how many do you think? 200, 781.

[Chloe]

Wow. That's really still a very small number of people.

[Jill]

Right. But also, like, I find it so weird when people do this because, Michael, all you had to say is that you went to the Olympics, and that would be impressive.

[Chloe]

That is really impressive.

[Jill]

Just say, I went to the Olympics. Five words. No math, no exag. Like, you know, like, now I'm in the same group of amount of people that went to space. First of all, it's a provable lie. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Just say you went to the Olympics, and anyone would be like, whoa.

[Chloe]

And honestly, people would probably think it was fewer than the number that he gave.

[Jill]

Because now that you're so talking, you're doing math and you're talking about the people who've, like, orbited, like, gone into space in a rocket ship.

[Chloe]

Now it's one of them.

[Jill]

No, like, now I'm doing math. Now just all you had to say, I went to the Olympics.

[Chloe]

Do you think someday we'll actually, for real, get to the moon?

[Jill]

Oh, God, we're not doing this. I don't want to hear it.

[Chloe]

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

[Jill]

Get your Kubrick conspiracies out of here.

[Chloe]

The look on your face, that's like,

[Jill]

the people who think the earth is flat. It's that. And we can't do that.

[Chloe]

Not again.

[Jill]

Sorry.

[Chloe]

It makes your dad so mad. We cannot tell.

[Jill]

Until he heard about fruitarianism, and he was like, what? And I'm like, yeah, and the fruitarianism people also think the Earth is flat. He was like, I can't do that.

[Chloe]

I. Not. Not. Not today.

[Jill]

Why are you lying?

[Chloe]

I'm assuming he calls you Jill sometimes. Yeah, I can hear it in his voice.

[Jill]

Yeah, somet. Yeah,

[Chloe]

girl. Chime is back. Can I ask you, where the hell was this? When we were younger, I would have

[Jill]

loved to have something like chime.

[Chloe]

You're still very young, by the way.

[Jill]

I know, but it's. I still lived for a time without.

[Chloe]

No. Well, look, the whole thing with chime is changing the way people bank, right? Chime is not like traditional old banks who Charge fees and gatekeep perks and rewards not. They're not like that. No.

[Jill]

Chime offers the most rewarding fee. Free banking. All with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance fees. That was always killing me.

[Chloe]

That was always killing me too. So here's the deal with chime. You get 5% cash back on Chime card in a category of choice like gas or groceries. Gas, girl.

[Jill]

Gas in this economy, groceries in this economy.

[Chloe]

And you get that all while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. That's the thing. Building the credit, especially when you're young, is so important.

[Jill]

I know. And you can also grow your money faster with a savings rate that's nine times the national average. Again, in this economy. Yeah.

[Chloe]

And if you're ever in a pinch, fam, Spot me lets you overdraft up to 200 bucks fee free.

[Jill]

That's like unheard of.

[Chloe]

Unheard of.

[Jill]

Unheard of.

[Chloe]

So, fam. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking.

[Jill]

Head to chime.com TCO that's chime.com TCO Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes, fam.

[Chloe]

Chime is fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners.

[Jill]

Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.comdisclosures for details,

[Chloe]

fam. Before we get back to the episode, just a reminder, please follow us on YouTube. Over 600,000 subscribers.

[Jill]

I don't even know.

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

That is unbelievable.

[Chloe]

And I gotta tell you, our Benjamin Kyle episodes just came out and they are very funny and they are like, I've watched them now twice on YouTube.

[Jill]

What a mess.

[Chloe]

It was really a mess. It's very silly. It's, it's giving classic TCO. It's worth a watch. On the YouTube, it's once again, 600,000 subscribers. Also join the Facebook group. Over, I think 60,000 people in the Facebook group just making friends, hanging out, talking true crime.

[Jill]

Yeah, we got a lot going on.

[Chloe]

Really. We do. Options, Lots of places to connect.

[Jill]

Yes. Anyway, Michael explains how horse people make money. Yeah, they train horses. They train people. People pay them to keep their horses in the stables. And Michael tells us how he heard about Lauren. Someone he was training told him about Lauren and like she, this person wants to bring Lauren to train at his training farm for one month.

[Chloe]

Okay. Okay, thank you. Thank you for identifying that timeline right up front. One month is how long she's going to be there. Apparently too she was this person's like top student. So. But my point in that is just to say that Lauren, of course you had your fudgeing eye in the Olympics. Like of course you did.

[Jill]

Yeah. You know, like no one here is believable. This is unreliable narrators through and through. So you have to take everything everybody says with a grain of salt because everything is very extreme.

[Chloe]

Because we're told by Michael that Lauren was sold to him and we're told by Lauren that Michael was selling the farm to her.

[Jill]

We're going to do that a lot. We're going to see that.

[Chloe]

I even couldn't believe they were both in this documentary.

[Jill]

Yeah. So Hawthorne Hill, Long Valley, New Jersey. It's an hour away from New York City. Michael tells us it's a safe space and sanctuary. He built it with his own two hands.

[Chloe]

I don't think that that's unimportant here. I think the fact that like this was a man at the top of his game. Right. Like he was or that's what he says in his own mind. He was a man at the top of his game, made a lot of money. He built this beautiful place like for himself. I think that there was a lot more financial trouble for him than we're, we're going to get into. But this place was beautiful. It was his and it was how he like made his living.

[Jill]

Yeah. So he, it was designed like a campus and Michael was the overseer of all the training and now he on his staff he had someone named Justin. Michael's right hand man will never meet Justin.

[Chloe]

We see him for one second in

[Jill]

the trial and Mary Haskins, who is a horse rider and Michael's then girlfriend.

[Chloe]

Yeah, I thought her last name was gay. It's not Mary Haskins Gray.

[Jill]

But everyone called full names are Mary Haskins.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

So everyone.

[Chloe]

I just thought it was homophobic to leave out gay until I realized it wasn't gay. It's just gray. It's just gray.

[Jill]

Everyone lived at the farm while they trained.

[Chloe]

The place is beautiful, furnished and Lauren can live there as part of the deal. And said Greg, she's on the property. She's a seven minute walk to the barn from the house which is at the same address. And it was all settled. Lauren had a place to live. She had two horses who were being trained. Everyone was happy.

[Jill]

Is that normal? I don't know. I have no idea. If you told me it was weird to live there, I'd believe you. If you told me it was normal to live there, I'd also Believe you,

[Chloe]

it seems like a fancy thing that you're paying. Like, because we're. This is where we meet her dad, and her dad is paying, footing the bill for everything.

[Jill]

He is bankrolling this entire situation.

[Chloe]

Anything to get this nightmare of a daughter to shut the hell up and

[Jill]

distract her for a little bit.

[Chloe]

Get her. Get rid of her for a month or whatever. Like, we see the way that she's screaming at her husband all the time. I can only imagine the way that she talked to her father, Rob.

[Jill]

Like, what?

[Chloe]

Also, the father's awful. Like, I'm not.

[Jill]

They're all awful.

[Chloe]

That is true. Once again, the only people not awful here are the horses.

[Jill]

Yeah, they're the good people.

[Chloe]

They're the good people.

[Jill]

They're the heroes of this whole.

[Chloe]

God, they absolutely are. More like the innocent bystanders, at the very least.

[Jill]

Like, they didn't ask for any of this.

[Chloe]

At one point, did you see? She thinks she can talk to the horses. At one point, she says to one of the horses, like, do you have a puffy foot? Blink once for yes and two for no. I was like, girl, you can't talk to horses.

[Jill]

She can't.

[Chloe]

She can.

[Jill]

You can't communicate with animals when you don't respect them. And I don't think she does.

[Chloe]

Rose Nyland could speak to mice. She did have the gift.

[Jill]

Right, because she's a caring, sweet, loving person.

[Chloe]

Yes, exactly.

[Jill]

Like, you can communicate with animals. No, I'm not talking telepathically. I'm just saying, like, you can absolutely have an understanding with animals. She can't.

[Chloe]

Also, in that moment when she says, like, blink once for yes, two for no, the horse, it just stares at her.

[Jill]

That's not the communication I'm talking about.

[Chloe]

Like, she's got Morse code with the. I no hate her.

[Jill]

At first, everything was great. Isn't that how it always goes? Michael was doing what he promised to do. Lauren was happy. The horses are happy. Allegedly. Everyone is happy.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Now, Lauren. This is where Lauren's like, oh. Like, very quickly, I realized that this is like a cult like, obsession with the Olympics at this place.

[Chloe]

What did you think you were doing? Like, we're gonna find out. I know. I keep Te this how expensive this sport is. You would only be doing it at this level if you were hoping to get to the Olympics or close to it.

[Jill]

Right. Or that's how rich and spoiled and entitled she is, that she can just do this for fun. And she doesn't really care about the work. I would get that. She doesn't feel she wants us to think she's a hard worker. I don't buy that.

[Chloe]

No. And she certainly doesn't have a job doing this. Dressage training is her job.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Jill]

So Michael tells us it takes three things to be amazing at dressage. You need a good trainer. You yourself need to be a good rider. You need a good horse. But more than all of that, it takes a ton of money. He says it's a reason why it's called the sport of kings.

[Chloe]

And he breaks it down for us.

[Michael]

He's like, going to Europe to compete is necessary for anybody in the international horse port. Round trip transport is $25,000 for one show. And that doesn't include your groom and your stuff and the show fees. And then you get back here and if you have your own horse trailer and truck, that's 125 grand for a decent rig and horseshoes. The hors needs every four weeks for 500 or $700.

[Chloe]

How are they getting the horse there? Are they tranquilizing the horse and putting it in the belly of the plane? How are they. Are they doing that thing in the cartoon where they have the swing and it's just like in a. It's like in a sling over the ocean.

[Jill]

Their legs are like sticking out of

[Chloe]

it, actually being majestic, like, over the ocean.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

But, like, how are you getting this horse to Europe? It must be a private plane.

[Jill]

Yeah. A cheap horse is 50 grand. Like, this is why. I don't know. Here's a throwback. Why everyone was giving Ann Romney shit when Mitt was running president. Because you can't really be a man of the people and have a wife who's doing dressage.

[Chloe]

Is that what she was doing?

[Jill]

She was doing dressage? Wow. I believe. Right.

[Chloe]

Like, remember when Mitt Romney was the worst of our problems?

[Jill]

Do you remember when Mitt Romney. I. This is breaking my heart. But their dog, he traveled with their dog in the carrier on top of the car.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And it got so sick and nervous and traumatized that it had diarrhea.

[Chloe]

No.

[Jill]

They, like hose it down and put it back, you know, cold. Like, that is animal abuse. So anyway. But that's what you can't be like running for president as a man of the people and also bankrolling your wife's $200,000 a year hobby.

[Chloe]

Like, Mitt Romney is anything but a man of the. Well, we don't. We don't. We. We're not gonna.

[Lauren]

We're not.

[Chloe]

We're not relitigating Romney.

[Jill]

But it definitely has a reputation. Like it's the sport of kings. It's very frou frou.

[Chloe]

Yeah, for sure. You know, it is just for rich people.

[Jill]

And we're told, like there's. You can't just like do it. That's the thing. Like you were saying, you can't just do it as a hobby. We're like, this is fun. It's not like crochet. No, Tennis is the same thing. Like things need a special, like uniforms

[Chloe]

and costumes, dressage of stand up sports.

[Jill]

For sure. When you can't just like, like come as you are.

[Chloe]

Right. The soccer is like the sport of the people.

[Jill]

You need the outfit.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Jill]

You need the costume. Let's talk about J.T. j.T. Is a horse. J.T. is awesome. J.T. is an incredible athlete. They spell it J A Y dash T. Michael purchased JT in 2006 with his ex wife. And they had the agreement. Michael would personally like ride, compete, and sell the horse. And that was the deal.

[Chloe]

And Michael tells us that, like, it's very common and this makes sense to me that like for a trainer to allow their like, lesser trainees to like, get the opportunity to like sit on a horse like J.T. and this is what happens with Lauren.

[Lauren]

The first minute I got on, they're like, just be careful, it'll be fine. I get on him, he feels amazing. You could feel like a ball of like energy underneath your body. Rise. And I was like, yeah, this horse is going to be mine one day.

[Chloe]

This horse will be mine someday.

[Jill]

Because the point is like to show them how it should feel. Like this horse is already trained and awesome. This is how it should feel to ride. Ride a horse like that. You're not there yet. Your horse doesn't do it. But this is the ultimate feel.

[Chloe]

This is just the beginning of when my heart starts to turn black. Because Lauren just sees something that she wants.

[Jill]

And she's also told no.

[Chloe]

And she because told no because Lauren

[Jill]

wants to try J.T. she was like, cool, cool, cool. But the only horse I want to try this with is JT and they're like, well, no, not everyone is allowed to ride JT because he can be a little bit difficult. And she's like, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. I'm like, what's that word entitled again that you claim you're not in the

[Chloe]

middle of this, it cuts to Lauren back in her own stable and we see her feeding JT So somehow Lauren has become in possession of JT and before we learn how I'm like, oh, my God, my head is starting to explode.

[Jill]

Right? And so Lauren is like, I'm in love. I instantly want him to be mine. And now, Michael, one of his many analogies. Lauren is used to riding Toyota Corollas. JT's a Corvette. We let her ride a Corvette once and now. And that sent the snowball down the mountain.

[Chloe]

Now here's where we get one of our first conflicting stories. Because we learn that, like, Lauren, against or with or behind Michael's back, is posting videos of her riding JT on Facebook. Then she enters a contest with JP behind Michael. Jt, what did I say?

[Jill]

Jp? Jt, it's okay. I just want JT to be respected.

[Chloe]

And this is where we start to get this. This story that Michael is absolutely furious. Absolutely not. JT cannot be in this. In this competition.

[Jill]

But I'm like, so is no one seeing this? Like, are she's living there? So are you telling me that she's, like, sneaking JT to all of these things and posting it online, and that's how you're finding out about it?

[Chloe]

Right. Does make sense. He's also saying she, in effect, had

[Michael]

commandeered my horse for her own purposes, and it was disastrous. She's devaluing him and all. It's can't go on. And I told them, you can't show this horse. And they came after me in the stable.

[Chloe]

She's not doing well in these competitions with jt, which is devaluing the horse.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

And then one day, Michael orders the horse off the truck, says, no, absolutely not. You can't use him anymore. Then we get the story from Lauren, which is that she gets to the trailer. CJ sees that JT isn't there, goes running into the office, and is like, what's going on? And Michael, according to Lauren, says to her, I gotta sell this horse right away. I'm in the middle of a really expensive divorce. You can't ride him because I have to sell him. Michael is saying, no, I told her she couldn't ride him because she was devaluing him. Lauren says, well, I looked at Michael and said, well, why don't I just buy him from you?

[Jill]

And also in the middle of this, Michael says she rented a Corvette convertible from Hertz and then decided to drive it for the rest of her life. To say, michael, we got to stop with the car analogies. Like, it's a great analogy, but the point has been proven. We need to move on.

[Chloe]

We got to move on. And this was the. This was the first time I realized you can't trust either of them because no one way or the other, this horse gets sold to Lauren for 20,000.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

Michael says it's pennies on the dollar. Lauren says, he was so relieved to make that $20,000 for me.

[Jill]

And Michael is saying that they, Lauren and her father are attacking him, screaming, carrying on, threatening him. And he's like, I've never been in a fight. I'm such a chicken. Michael is saying he was extorted.

[Chloe]

Yeah. Right. Now, this is not talked about in the documentary. We've talked about it a little bit, but this is the first time I'm like, michael was in financial trouble.

[Jill]

Oh, for sure.

[Chloe]

Michael was underwater. Because so many times I'm like, I don't understand how he just allowed himself to be steamrolled. I don't think this is one of those examples. I think that Michael did sell the horse to her. I think that Michael did need the cash. I think that he did sell the horse for less than it was worth, But I do think that he desperately needed the money.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

I'm guessing here.

[Jill]

Right. And also, like, it's so funny because Lauren's like, well, I can buy jt And I'm like, I love how she says I when she means, my dad is going to write you a check.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Because we have a text from Michael to Lauren's dad, which is proving your point. And Michael is saying, john, good morning. We need to wrap up JT asap.

[Chloe]

Right. Because before that, he was like, I was like, you said, I'm being threatened, extorted to sell my horse. In what way?

[Jill]

Yeah, the texts say otherwise.

[Chloe]

Right. Like, what are you talking about? You're being threatened and extorted.

[Jill]

And then Lauren's dad goes, agree, Lauren can pay $20,000 for JT and I'm like, why are they being so weird about who's paying for this?

[Chloe]

Right.

[Jill]

Michael and the dad are texting, but everyone is pretending that Lauren is buying the horse. Just say, the dad's buying jt. It's so weird to me.

[Chloe]

I feel like that was the dad. I don't know. Like, when you have raised a kid like this who, like, has no understanding of responsibility, no understanding of her place in the world, no understanding of how to act and treat other people.

[Jill]

You say maybe entitled.

[Chloe]

May. Entitled is a good word to describe that. I feel like the dad is trying to pretend that Lauren has some sort

[Jill]

of financial autonomy, but it's also infantilizing her.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

By speaking for her, Lauren can pay $20,000. Is he her representative? Is he a lawyer? Like, he's really also, like, does Lauren have siblings?

[Chloe]

Like, you know what I mean? Like, is she the only child here?

[Jill]

I don't know.

[Chloe]

Who knows?

[Jill]

Cut to Lauren panicking on a horse, yelling at her boyfriend.

[Chloe]

We're back to her, like, yelling and screaming at the guy.

[Lauren]

But, oh, my God, Rob, please stop. Look at what's happened here.

[Chloe]

Let me pull you.

[Jill]

Let me pull you.

[Lauren]

Let go from what I say. Let go of the reins. Stop. Easy, boy. Rob.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

I need a whip.

[Jill]

Stop, stop, stop, stop. Rob. Stop, stop, stop. She's like Sammy on Jersey Shore. Ren, Stop, stop, stop. Easy, easy, easy. Let him go. What did I say? And then Michael is here with yet another analogy about what a shitty rider Lauren is making some baseball references once again, totally overcomplicating what he's trying to say. And the bot Michael is, quote, World Series level. Lauren's playing in the Little League. Then we get back to Lauren, who's still freaking out. Rob, Rob, Rob. I'm like, get off the fucking horse. And also, get off the horse.

[Chloe]

Rob never says a word. This man, like, I'm not even on his side, but this man is just, like, he's completely emasculated by Lauren.

[Jill]

You're bad at this. Your father. You've been doing this since you're 6 years old. It looks like you're brand new here. Yeah. And also, listen, I know that everyone told you. No, I know you're not used to that. They know what they're doing.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Justin said he can't ride the horse because JT is, like, too advanced. Advance for you. You should listen instead of riding JT and stressing him out and me out and everyone out. Rob, Rob, this is just not a professional. This is not how, like, she's, like, so rude. I'm asking you a question. And I'm like, can you focus on. She's asking for a whip. And I'm like, what are you doing? Get off the horse. You're not good at this.

[Chloe]

I think, too, it's interesting.

[Jill]

That so aggravating for me to watch.

[Chloe]

We never meet a single friend of hers. There's nobody here. Not even her husband. Her husband isn't even here to be like, she great.

[Jill]

I hope it's the ex. I don't know what, like, is her family that rich?

[Chloe]

I know. Like, who are they? Like, what do they even do?

[Jill]

What is the appeal here,

[Chloe]

girl? Zenni is back. Look, Zenni is an online eyewear shop where they've got These really trendy, super stylish frames and lenses and all that. And like, at such, such a reasonable price, I desperately need new glasses. I've been on the site all day.

[Jill]

Yeah, so they have very stylish prescription glasses, also sunglasses and customizable lens options.

[Chloe]

And the price, yeah, we're talking starting under $30. And like, this is what I was saying to myself today. Like, at that price, I can like, look around, see what I like and like, maybe get a couple pairs.

[Jill]

Yeah, you can have like, oh, my fancy pair. Oh, this only goes with this outfit, but it's 20 bucks.

[Chloe]

So cool, right? Because I know for my whole life glasses can be so expensive. Not with Zenny. Fab.

[Jill]

And it's super easy. You go to zenni.com, you pick a frame, you put in your prescription, you customize the lenses, they ship it right to your door. You don't have to go to the store. There's no pressure.

[Chloe]

And let me tell you, I've been through this process. It's super simple. They also have that try on feature that I love, where you pick your frames and you look into the camera and it really is like you're wearing them and you can see them from all the different angles. You can move your head. It's like my favorite part of the whole.

[Jill]

And you've done a bunch of these virtual try ons. You say Zenny's the best.

[Chloe]

Absolutely the best. So, fam, that scratch a pair of glasses has done its job. Upgrade today to Zenni.

[Jill]

Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over $65.

[Chloe]

The styles do sell out, fam, so don't sit on it.

[Jill]

That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15 and

[Chloe]

I'll see you there. I've been there all day. I'll be there tomorrow.

[Jill]

Well, you'll see each other very clearly with glasses.

[Chloe]

So now we learned that Mary Haskins would sometimes train Lauren and that never went well.

[Jill]

Well, team Lauren says that Michael's an idiot and so is Mary Haskins his girlfriend.

[Chloe]

Just to say it, like, sometimes you meet women who are like, we, I love women, but they hate women. Lauren hates women.

[Jill]

Hates. And she also doesn't like people who are not, like, fawning all over her. Like, fawning? Yes, they like just treating her civil is not good enough for Lauren. You have to say that she's amazing all the time.

[Chloe]

We only hear about Mary Haskins. Mary Haskins is Michael's live in girlfriend.

[Jill]

And not anymore, but then girl.

[Chloe]

During that, during that time her kids lived with them. Importantly, I just imagine her to be a strong woman. She's another like really good competitor. I think Lauren was really super threatened by her, did not love being trained by her and was really fudgeing awful

[Jill]

to her because I think Lauren got to this place because you think like half. How is she here with these Olympic level people when she's so bad at this?

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And everyone was just like, yes, yeah, cash in the checks from daddy.

[Chloe]

Well, that's what Michael was doing.

[Michael]

Because we hear here Lauren starts screaming about what everyone's not doing for her. And Mary Haskins is saying to her, you don't even show up and ride, so don't talk about what people aren't doing for you. You have to do the work.

[Chloe]

Mary Haskins is being like, why are you screaming at us? You never even show up for your training.

[Jill]

Well, because Mary Haskins is telling her no and she's actually training her.

[Chloe]

Yes, yes. And it's the only time we hear it in the documentary. But it's why I think Lauren is still bad at this because she doesn't actually. She shows up when she feels like

[Jill]

she just wants to ride horses.

[Chloe]

Yes, exactly.

[Jill]

And spend a ton of money doing it and like abuse these horses because there's no way it's good for them. She doesn't respect them.

[Chloe]

Right. We also hear the dad saying there was a meeting between Mary Haskins, Michael and Lauren. And in this meeting we're told by Lauren's dad that Mary Haskins says to her, you guys have to leave. And that Michael then says to the room, room, shut the fuck up. To his girlfriend, Mary Haskins. I have a deal with these people.

[Jill]

According the quote is, shut the fuck up, Mary Haskins.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And I'm like, he full named his own girlfriend in front of people he hates. I don't know how true.

[Chloe]

This is the only thing I can say about this. And we can start talking about this here. Michael never tells them they have to go. This gets so much worse.

[Jill]

I don't understand why. But the money, it's got to be.

[Chloe]

It has to be the money. Like he never like this gets so bad that they made a documentary about it and yet Michael never tells them that they have to leave. So there is some truth to that.

[Jill]

I think, I think so too. But everyone agrees that there's a fight. Yes, Every side agrees that like a major fight happens and Lauren's dad says Michael wanted it both ways. It blew up in his face. And I'm like, okay, it's still not clear what you mean by that right now.

[Chloe]

And I think part of that is he, like, wanted the money, but he also wanted to be in control. And with Lauren as part of that equation, that was never going to happen.

[Jill]

Here's something that no one is going to like. These two aren't going to like. Michael and Lauren are too similar. They love the drama.

[Chloe]

They are. Yes.

[Jill]

Or else they would have left. One of them would have been. Lauren would have been like, okay, fuck you, I'll take my money elsewhere.

[Chloe]

And what actually makes me insane is that Michael ends up being crazier than her.

[Jill]

I mean, I think they're both there. We're talking about two different levels here.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

But they're both equally.

[Chloe]

And we'll get there, but first we got to meet Laura Osborne.

[Jill]

Yeah. Is it Laura? Is it Lara? L A R A. Lara.

[Chloe]

L A U R A. But who knows?

[Jill]

Whatever she. She's here. Say, like, horse people are quirky and it's not unusual that they're difficult. And, you know, everyone just ignores it because that's the nature of the gig. I just want to say I have heard from listeners that that is 100% true.

[Chloe]

Of course you're dealing with like, the richest people in the world.

[Jill]

Like DMs, Discord, Facebook group. People have absolutely said, oh, horse people are crazy. And I know because I'm one of them.

[Chloe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go nuts.

[Jill]

Like, don't hold back. Like, they are crazy.

[Chloe]

But Laura's whole point is that as

[Jill]

soon as I met her, I knew something wasn't right with her. Her energy was so frantic, manic that I actually got a migraine and I had to walk away from her. It was so disruptive and so just nerve wracking. It was horrible. She's frantic, she's manic, she's disruptive, she's migraine inducing. Like, people need a break from her. They need to walk away. Laura. Lara. Lara was like. It was horrible is the quote.

[Chloe]

Then we cut back to Laure in the stable.

[Jill]

Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. Where's my this? Get my that? Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. I mean, how much money? What is your, like, stipend? Rob, how much are you getting?

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

What is the appeal here?

[Chloe]

Well, I think there is no appeal. I think when you meet somebody this crazy and you realize what you've done, it is scarier to walk away.

[Jill]

What did we just do in maternal Instinct.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

When you allow these people to be crazy.

[Chloe]

Yep.

[Jill]

It allows them to be even crazier.

[Chloe]

And also when you initiate the breakup, that's when the ire and the iron hammer comes down.

[Jill]

So Lara says about.

[Chloe]

We're going, Lara.

[Jill]

I get Lara. What am I supposed to do?

[Chloe]

No, that makes Lara, Lara. I knew a Lara. Lara.

[Jill]

But do some people like Lara?

[Chloe]

I don't know.

[Jill]

I don't know either. I think it anyway, Lara.

[Chloe]

I've never known a Lara.

[Lauren]

Lar.

[Jill]

I don't. I don't know Lara. Lara says Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. But Lauren, like we were saying, hates Mary Haskins and now is making her sort of like a target of Lauren.

[Chloe]

I love that Mary Haskins is full name.

[Jill]

Mary Haskins, full name for everybody.

[Chloe]

That is absolutely my favorite thing now.

[Jill]

I kinda love that Mary Haskins isn't here. Because what happens is things are so bad that Lauren goes on Facebook and posting passive aggressive bullshit about like, they have poked the bear and now she's quoting the Art of War by Sun Tzu. And I'm like, lauren, immediately I know you're the problem. Because this, not only is this childish, is you know exactly what you're doing. When you. In my opinion, when you engage in online discourse in this way, it shows me that you're the problem. Because rational people, like, rational people who actually want a solution don't behave this way. Rational people who want a solution do not behave this way.

[Lauren]

Way.

[Jill]

Am I not a hot take?

[Chloe]

I mean, you're absolutely, 100%.

[Jill]

That's not how you behave when you actually want, like a solution and everything to end peacefully. When you go online and stroke, stoke

[Chloe]

the flames, I just, I just, I just cannot tell you how much what you're saying lives in.

[Jill]

When you bring the wood and the gasoline and the matches and the kerosene, you really don't want any other outcome than what we've had, what we have here today.

[Chloe]

That is exactly all you want. That is exactly, exactly right.

[Jill]

So I'm never gonna defend this Michael guy. Cause he's absolutely part of it.

[Chloe]

I couldn't agree more.

[Jill]

But for her to start, this is really very, very, very tough. And it's just the beginning.

[Chloe]

And she's being crazy. She's using chess images saying, the king

[Michael]

has been captured and killed. The queen must be sacrificed to protect the castle. The castle comes crumbling down. Who has the time or the energy to put things out like this?

[Jill]

Michael holds up a screenshot and the. The words are on the full page. And he goes, who has the time or energy to put things out like this.

[Chloe]

And I'm like, say that again.

[Jill]

Yeah, because it's like the people who

[Chloe]

don't want a solution, the people who just want the. Who want the fight and the fire and the crazy. Those are the people who have. Because this is the whole point. The point is not the horseback riding. The point is not learning to get better. The point is the fight.

[Jill]

Because this, they thrive on this. This feeds them. Other people would be like, you know what? I want peace. I don't want chaos. But people who thrive on chaos. Michael, I'm also talking to you 100%.

[Chloe]

Like, Laura has met her match. Lauren. Which one are we at? Laura? Lauren.

[Jill]

Lauren.

[Chloe]

Lauren has met her match here.

[Jill]

That's what I mean. They're so similar.

[Chloe]

Because he also wants the fight.

[Jill]

He loves this. Yeah, he loves that. She's posting all about him. If you watch this doc, give it a pause. Because they like scroll on everything. Like everything is unhinged. Like talking about this fairy tale, like this adulterous king and this incredible queen. Queen. And then she's the queen. And then there's this imposter, this iq, see, this imposter queen commoner. Who's Mary Haskins.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And like, everyone is. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I mean, really, sadly, the lustful king was always away on business. Wild accusations. Unbelievable.

[Chloe]

Also, everybody at Hawthorne Hill is reading these posts. And the fact that Lauren has absolutely no shame in the fact that, like, you can't be embarrassed by your own insanity really tells you something. And like, and it's kind of scary because it's never going to stop. It's never going to stop until it does. And then once it stops, they move on to their next target, of course. But like, like that, that's what's so scary about this, that you can post something insane. Everybody in your orbit. She lives at Hawthorne Hill.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

All of the people that she's seeing every single day are seeing the insane things that she's writing and she's not embarrassed by it.

[Jill]

And Michael walks right into it. Yes, don't engage. Mary Haskins didn't engage. No, don't engage. And they, they go to the next shiny thing.

[Chloe]

All they want to win is by not engaging.

[Jill]

And then the trash out itself out every time. The truth will prevail. And that's just what happens. But Michael is loving this. And so Lauren also is here to defend it. She goes, I wrote all of that to show him that his girlfriend Mary is the problem. And I'm like, I love that Lauren needs to drag the closest woman in the room.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Into this fucking mess.

[Chloe]

Meanwhile, Mary Haskins, to me seems like the only adult in the room. She's the only one who's like, not here. Right, right, right, exactly. She's like, if you want to learn how to be a better horse rider, you have to show up to your fucking shit also. Michael, knock it off. Get rid of Mary Haskins. You want to be a better horse rider, show up to your lessons.

[Jill]

Right?

[Chloe]

Michael, you want this crazy person off your property? Kick her out.

[Jill]

If you're going to spew crazy shit and lies.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Mary Haskins has the right idea. In what universe are you going to get in the mud with someone who only wants to fudgeing fight you? And the truth doesn't matter to these people.

[Chloe]

Right?

[Jill]

So stay out of it. They will move on eventually.

[Chloe]

They will. They absolutely will.

[Jill]

They always do.

[Chloe]

Girl. Quince is back. Do you want to talk about the crossbody bag or the candles?

[Jill]

Can we do both? Or the jeans or the lounge set? I am such a Quincy girly fam.

[Chloe]

If you don't know. Quint specializes in effortless, high quality essentials like ultra soft organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're beautifully tailored, as we can attest. They're built to last and transition seamlessly from morning meetings to dinner. It's gorge. Yeah.

[Jill]

Back to the jeans real quick.

[Chloe]

Yeah, yeah, please.

[Jill]

Quince has premium stretch denim starting at just $50. And I can really attest. I know it says this in the copy. The fit is perfect.

[Chloe]

It is.

[Jill]

And they're so comfortable. It's not like, oh my God, get this bra and these jeans off of me. I'm like, I can chill in my jeans.

[Chloe]

No. And the other thing is, like, it's so afford. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And like you say, they show you what you could be paying elsewhere, what

[Jill]

it should be, what it is for you. You, Quince girly.

[Chloe]

They never mentioned the candles in the copy. So we have to that. We ordered like six of them. We gave them a drag. Bingo. One month.

[Jill]

They smell so good. So luxurious. They actually do smell good. Like sometimes there are candles where I'm like, I'm just smelling the match.

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

Like, I'm not smelling anything. But these are so, so good. So luxurious. Love it, fam.

[Chloe]

Upgrade your everyday.

[Jill]

Download the Quinta app for app exclus offers or go to quince.com TCO get

[Chloe]

free shipping on your orders and 365

[Jill]

day returns now available in Canada and the UK too.

[Chloe]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com TCO.

[Jill]

You're gonna look good. You're gonna smell great. So excited for you, girl.

[Chloe]

Helix is back. This become a running joke in my house because I always talk about how every night when I get into my bed, I'm so happy to be on my Helix mattress. Though it is true. Now I get in bed and I sigh deeply every night. And Steve laughs because he's like, can you shut up, shut up about the mattress for a minute?

[Jill]

Yeah, I have the midnight lux. Mike and I have the midnight lux. And yes, I'm like, so cozy and, like kicking my feet and I love it so much. But then I jump out of bed like a Disney princess because I slept so well. So, like, there are birds and chipmunks helping me get dressed in the morning.

[Chloe]

No question. My favorite thing is how you get your mattress. So you take like a two minute online sleep quiz. You and your partner or your bed partner or your dog can take this together. They tell you which custom mattress is perfect for you. They ship it right to your door in a box. Bada bing, bada boom. You got a brand new amazing mattress.

[Jill]

Yeah, I used to be a really terrible slee. I have to tell you, sleeping well changes so much life things that you don't even realize.

[Chloe]

You also get 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty.

[Jill]

Yeah. And they have the Happy with Helix guarantee.

[Chloe]

Ooh.

[Jill]

Seamless returns and exchanges. And the Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress.

[Chloe]

Yes. So fam. Go to helix sleep.com for 20% off site wide.

[Jill]

Right now that's helix sleep.com TCO for 20% off site wide.

[Chloe]

Make sure you enter the show name after checkout. So know that we sent you helixleep.com tco be like me and talk about your bed incessantly.

[Michael]

Right?

[Jill]

Remember when we used to go, good night but not creepy.

[Chloe]

I know. This is where we learn that, like the first confrontation, Michael is confronting her about the post. Lauren says, if he says, I will

[Lauren]

ruin your career with one phone call. That's not something you take lightly because Michael's friends do have the power to blackball. Get me banned from the sport. You're thinking, just kill me.

[Chloe]

Then he threatened to end her career with one phone call. And I'm like, I bet the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

When you're Michael and you see like these posts about your business, that seems to me like it's hanging on by a thread, but it's also the thing that you built with your own two hands.

[Michael]

Right.

[Chloe]

And now this woman, this person is bringing is like threatening to bring it all down with these social media posts. I can see him being like, I can end your career with one phone call.

[Jill]

Right. And also, also like only one of these two women is being crazy online. So I'm inclined to believe Mary Haskins.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Do you know what I mean? Like, all Lauren wants is for Mary to take the bait and it's not happening. And Lauren, like when you don't do that, these people get incensed.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And then they just start blowing it up. Like anything to get a reaction out of Mary Haskins and she's not doing it.

[Chloe]

Yep.

[Jill]

So the, the really the only way

[Chloe]

to play it and it's the only way to make it stop. Because if you engage with it, it just makes it bigger, which is what they want.

[Jill]

And what, that's what Michael is doing.

[Chloe]

The living through it part is the absolute hard living through it and staying quiet. It is near impossible because they get, and Michael, by the way, Michael did not have the ability to do that, right?

[Jill]

No, they don't. And but because they get desperate and they start saying things that are so egregious to try to get you in the mud with them. And it's like, no, I'm not like going online to fight with you, you fucking loser weirdo. But then I'm like, Michael, just fire Lauren as a client, then just get rid of her.

[Chloe]

Because my, my other thing is like in trying to understand why he never got rid of her, I'm like, you know, there's like squatters rights after 30 days or whatever. It was a one month contract.

[Jill]

But then like call a lawyer or make her.

[Chloe]

They never, they never got to that point. I don'. Like, I think that she wasn't there longer than 30 days.

[Jill]

But can't he say, you know, like, there are other ways to go about this? Michael.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Rational ways that don't cause chaos. And he chose none of them.

[Chloe]

No. And that's why I think we're here. Because I think that the dad makes the one solid point which that Michael, they did have a deal. I think that like, if, if he kicks her off the property, maybe the sale of the horse isn't going to go through, whatever.

[Jill]

But to like, isn't it worth it?

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

Don't want this to be over because like, of course you threatened Lauren. You think that's going to go over well? You gave her exactly what she wanted. So the Facebook posts keep coming. They're getting more and more insane. Lauren's dad, who's bankrolling the whole thing is here to say that she's defending herself. I'm like, she went online first.

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

And also, I don't give a shit. That's not how you solve anything.

[Chloe]

No.

[Jill]

And for her daddy to be defending her and enabling her tells you all you need to know about their dynamic. What is wrong? And also, Lauren just leave then.

[Chloe]

I know, but she doesn't. I know. We could go around it around keep saying the same thing.

[Jill]

Because your dad is a zillionaire. You have the means to go somewhere else.

[Chloe]

But she, she doesn't want to. This is what she wanted. So it's July 2019. It's one month before the incident. Michael calls 91 1. But I'm unclear on what he's asking them to do.

[Michael]

I need an officer here to get these people to get their together and not menace us. We are decent people turning out terror. These are menaces to society. If I need to get a restraining order tonight, I won't get it. This is a war and it's going to be dealt with right now. I've had enough of these people. I need them gone.

[Jill]

I've had enough of these people. I need them gone. And I'm like, this is not how you.

[Chloe]

And then it escalates because Lauren's dad starts telling them to record everything. So Lauren and the weird Bob Bob Rob Rob Rob are putting like secret recording devices all around the property because, quote, we're convinced the crime is going to happen and when it does, we want proof to show that were planning also.

[Jill]

Lauren, what is your big gripe exactly?

[Chloe]

Right.

[Jill]

What is everyone mad at everyone about?

[Chloe]

Right?

[Jill]

No one has really told us what it is. And if it's a business decision, grow the fuck up and deal with the business and move on.

[Chloe]

And it really just comes down to like, Lauren doesn't like Mary Haskins so she's taken to the Internet to like try to take down the whole business.

[Jill]

If I can't explain in one sentence what these two people are mad at each other, then it's bullshit.

[Chloe]

I agree.

[Jill]

So. But apparently Michael does call her Mary Haskins. Egg on my face. We hear it in the audio. He's like, I've had enough. This Mary Haskins and I' this is secret recordings and he's full naming her. And I'm like, I was wrong. So, because the conversation is about how the cops are telling Michael they can't step in and how this is a civil matter and Michael is telling Mary Haskins. And Mary Haskins keeps saying, well, put the burden on the police department then. Like she's playing old school is what Mary Haskins says. And to which Michael replies, yeah, well, she needs to be taught a lesson, talking about Lauren.

[Chloe]

But it's like, just change the locks. It's your house, house. Get rid of her.

[Jill]

I wish they would have played the rest of what Mary Haskins said, which you know, was something of like, don't engage with her. Yeah, stop doing this. Because that has to have been what she was saying.

[Chloe]

Yeah. So now it's August 2019. It's one week before the incident. Lauren is online posting that she's being bullied. She feels unsafe.

[Jill]

Six, three, man.

[Chloe]

Mary Haskins wants her banned from the Safe Sport organization, which is like the one that oversees the whole dressage thing. So if they ban Lauren, then she can't ever participate in the sport ever again. So in retaliation, Lauren calls SafeSport to report Michael for his bullying and harassment. And this is where we learn the

[Lauren]

report was about bullying, harassment and abuse of power. But at the time, the interviewer, she kept asking me, are there minors in the property? Where are they living? What are they doing?

[Jill]

Lauren is the one who was like, I don't know. They kept asking me about the kids. Yeah, because I'm sure, sure that she called Safesport and was like, well, he's being rude. And they're like, huh? And uh huh, like, what do you got, girl? We can't investigate something that's not real.

[Chloe]

Wait, are you saying that it really happened?

[Jill]

No, I'm saying that Lauren needed SafeSport to get involved. And she said what she had to say.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Because the truth is a nothing burger.

[Chloe]

And if that is true, if Lauren really did that, she needs to burn in hell someday.

[Jill]

I think that's what happens.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So six days before the incident, Michael is spiraling. Lauren is taunting Michael with this information that she, she has been secretly recording. And he's like, what now? He's getting paranoid. I'm like, I don't know how paranoid it is when she's actually secretly recording you.

[Chloe]

Well, he doesn't know that they're being recorded. What's happening is that they are being secretly recorded. And then Michael and Mary Haskins will say something to each other. And then the next day, Lauren will imply that she knows what they had said the night before. This really is a way to make somebody crazy.

[Jill]

It is. Because also now she, Lauren, is going on Facebook talking about how sometimes people plant secret recording devices and use the audio to ruin lives. Lives. And I'm like, a normal person would be exhausted by this.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And also Lauren is energized by it.

[Chloe]

She's. I mean, that's how they are. But also, this is now truly starting to make Michael crazy. And Michael is crazy and what he does is unforgivable. But I do understand the spiraling to a point of, like, really not. The only thing that he can do is get them off the property. He seems unwilling to do that. So I have to say that he is a participant in his own crazy making.

[Jill]

Yes. And she is relentless. I mean, those posts are just endless, endless, endless. And it's also getting other people to talk.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And so he's not just getting it from her. Of course. People are going to have a million questions about this.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

CPS is coming. It's like she's caused a nightmare. And for what exactly? No one can tell us what she's so mad about. So it's four days before the incident, and Michael calls the police again to report that Lauren is secretly recording his conversations. And now he's being stalked. And I do want to say, like, what she's doing is illegal.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Because I looked up the law in New Jersey. It's illegal to record a conversation that you're not a part of.

[Chloe]

Oh, wow.

[Jill]

So, like, what Lauren is doing, I mean, I guess her lawyer could argue that the stable isn't private, that it's a public place.

[Chloe]

But can he prove it?

[Jill]

I mean, yeah, I don't know where the recordings are. I don't know.

[Chloe]

We hear the recording, so at some point they were entered into evidence because they. We hear them and.

[Jill]

But what she does is, like, absolutely illegal. So we don't hear that she was charged with that. But it is like, to your point, like, when someone does awful shit about you online, that's one thing. But when it crosses over into real life, whether it's a small way or a big way. Yes, that is scary. And it's. This person is crazy and it can make you crazy. It makes you paranoid. It makes you feel like you're not a person.

[Chloe]

She absolutely drove him to the brink. I mean, any human being has the absolute responsibility to not let themselves get pushed that far if they can avoid it.

[Jill]

Yeah,

[Chloe]

girl. Our place is back. This is just that gorgeous, high performing Cookware that doesn't have any of those terrible chemicals that we all grew up eating.

[Jill]

Yeah, it's all about making cook cooking easier and simpler and more enjoyable and without those forever chemicals that everybody hates.

[Chloe]

Yeah. This cookware is made without intentionally added pfas and it's third party tested to meet global safety standards. Like if you're cooking for your family, make sure you're not like killing them.

[Jill]

And let's talk about the always pan. Okay. This is probably their most iconic product for a reason. It's a 10 in 1 non toxic ceramic nonstick that replaces multiple pieces of cookware and the one that you are definitely going to reach for the most.

[Chloe]

So Steve uses this every morning. He makes eggs every day. This morning I walked into the kitchen to see him doing the gliding, watching

[Jill]

the eggs right off, slips right off.

[Chloe]

Honestly. Then you don't have to use all that oil or butter or whatever it is. You know what I mean?

[Jill]

Yeah. It's good for like smaller kitchens or apartment living because it's 10 in one. So you just use this one. Instead of having like a full, full, full 20 piece cookware set, we have

[Chloe]

that one little cabinet for pots and pans. And this is like one of two

[Jill]

that we own also, the Wonder Oven Pro. You know, I love, you do love this, the always pan. 10 in one. This is eight in one. Yeah, it's definitely the most used thing. I have it. Air fries, roasts, bakes, toast, reheats, proofs, dehydrates and broils in order to read it a filth.

[Chloe]

If you're not wearing a cute outfit

[Jill]

in one little thing.

[Chloe]

Yeah, come on fam. Upgrade your kitchen with our place today.

[Jill]

Visit fromourplace.com TCO and use code TCO for 10% off site wide.

[Chloe]

That's F R O M O U R P L-A C.com TCO and use code TCO for 10% off sitewide with

[Jill]

a 100 day trial, you can try it completely risk free.

[Chloe]

Do it.

[Jill]

Slide those eggs.

[Chloe]

Totally. So three days before the event, we learned about Ruth Cox, who was a client and friend of Michael. She shows up to the property like for her regularly scheduled summer visit or whatever and she brings a gun.

[Jill]

Well, she always, she doesn't leave the house without her nine mil.

[Chloe]

And by the way, this thing is like bright pink.

[Jill]

It's black with like hot pink like paint splatter.

[Chloe]

Like Ruth Cox, maybe my favorite person in this whole documentary.

[Jill]

Well, Michael says wait, go get it.

[Michael]

It has to go in the safe. It's not safe out there. The cop told me, don't leave anything in the cars. She brought it in, went right into my office, and we put it in the safe.

[Chloe]

If there are any weapons, they need to be locked up. Nothing is safe.

[Jill]

We have kids on the property. It just feels like that's the smart thing to do anyway. Yes. You don't run out in a car overnight with, like, what this, by the

[Chloe]

way, is Dr. Ruth Cox. Like, she seems like a very smart lady.

[Jill]

Not Dr. Ruth.

[Chloe]

Not. Not. Oh, wouldn't that be a wrinkle? But Dr. Ruth Cox, I guess, was just going to leave sparkly pink gun in the glove box overnight.

[Jill]

Not cool.

[Chloe]

No.

[Jill]

Also, especially when, according to Michael, Lauren is lurking all over the farm at all hours of the night at 3am Quote, Lurking in the trees dressed like a ninja.

[Chloe]

Now, if this is true, this is a level of insane. It's like, lurking in the trees, literally dressed as a ninja.

[Jill]

Right?

[Chloe]

That he says. And now we know, as though he's got evidence to this fact.

[Jill]

What? And at first you're like, okay, well, Michael's an unreliable narrator too. But then they show us a screenshot of something Lauren posted, said, everyone should be worried. I'm not responsible for anything my other personalities do when they're threatened.

[Chloe]

That is insane.

[Jill]

That's an insane thing. And, like, I don't. I'm not defending Michael, but, like, this is. She's crazy. And she's basically saying, like, everyone is in danger here.

[Chloe]

Yes. And then Michael, it cuts to Michael. He's like, they were crazy. He calls them, meaning her and Rob extreme terrorists. That's exactly what it was. He goes, they did a mini 911 to me.

[Jill]

Michael, first of all, how dare you?

[Chloe]

How.

[Jill]

Like, how fucking dare you?

[Chloe]

And also, why would you say something like that to the Netflix documentary crew? Like, how do you think that that's gonna come up?

[Jill]

Because it shows you his role in this. I'm sorry that he, like, this didn't just happen to you overnight, Michael.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Jill]

You were a part of this for quite some time. Those Facebook messages are ridiculous. She is being threatening. I totally get it. She's pushing you to the brink, like you said. But, like, this wasn't just, like, a person that you met and you were like, mary Haskins is the one who could be like, I didn't engage. I tried to stop it.

[Chloe]

And we also don't know when Mary Haskins left. But I'm like, I cannot think of a situation in which I'm going to, quote, stand my ground if something like, has gotten this crazy. And I'm to the point where I'm actually considering committing murder. I am removing myself from the situation,

[Jill]

no matter what a loss you take or what financial dire straits you're in.

[Chloe]

Because what Michael ends up doing, doing here, she wins.

[Jill]

She wins.

[Chloe]

You know what I mean? Even though she gets shot. And that's horrible.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

But, like, it's like. Like she did it. She made him that crazy.

[Jill]

Made him that crazy. So August 7, 2019. It's the day of the incident. This is when CPS shows up to the farm.

[Chloe]

Michael's not been allowed into the office. So Mary Haskins is taken into the office with the CPS worker and Michael's not allowed. So he says that he overhears.

[Michael]

I could swear I stood there in a. I heard the word sexual abuse, and I remember spinning in the lights like this, and I just lost my balance and bang. And I can remember being out of balance and black. And then it's over.

[Chloe]

The CPS workers say the words child abuse.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

So one of two things is happening here. Either Michael is lying to justify what he's about to do, or Michael is telling the truth. And that crazy woman Lauren actually made a false sexual abuse allegation against.

[Jill]

To get CPS there.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And ruin his life.

[Chloe]

Either one could be true.

[Jill]

Either one could be true.

[Chloe]

The sexual abuse I don't think happened.

[Jill]

I don't think so either.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

But Michael describes having a panic attack and then passing out.

[Chloe]

I also want to say that we will eventually see the CPS worker on the stand in the trial. And she's asked point blank, like, were you there about Michael at all? And she says no. So I don't think the sexual abuse claim is real.

[Jill]

I think, why is she here?

[Chloe]

I think Michael's lying. I don't know. I think maybe just the neglect, because we do hear the neglect allegations.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Chloe]

And maybe she's just there for me. And also maybe, like, if a neglect allegations filed, maybe you just have to go.

[Jill]

Sure. Which is again, like, what Lauren could have done. Call cp.

[Chloe]

You know, I think that Michael is lying about this sexual abuse allegation to justify what he's about to do.

[Jill]

Sure, I'll buy that.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Now we're back with Lauren. Lauren says, because, remember, so just for the. The timeline as we're hearing the story, we end with Michael saying, oh, I had a panic attack. And then I pass out. And I, you know, because according to

[Chloe]

Michael now, his story is from now until until after the shooting, he remembers nothing.

[Jill]

So we're back with Lauren, and she says Michael shows up to her door. Rob meets him outside, and Michael's like, how do we end this? I don't want a war now. Lauren says, I approached Michael, according to Lauren. Cool as a cucumber. And I'm like, this is the woman who can't do the thing she loves the most without throwing a tantrum. Riding horses. Now, where's you're supposed to think that Michael showed up to her door and she was like, hey, let's talk it out.

[Chloe]

Unless she was trying to provoke some kind of, like, getting him to do something to her.

[Jill]

Because, like, now, like, now you're gonna be nice. Like, that would make someone crazy too.

[Chloe]

Yeah, literally.

[Jill]

Because that's gaslighting being like, well, you've been a nightmare for however long. This is when it was only supposed to be a month.

[Chloe]

Right? And so he pulls out a gun,

[Lauren]

says Lauren, says, Lauren, there is just something not right. And it was immediately Michael pulls out a gun, shoots it at me, Bang, bang.

[Chloe]

Shoots her twice, and then shoots Rob. This is. This is beyond. I think Lauren is awful. I think that she absolutely pushed Michael to the brink. I think she did it on purpose. I think she made him crazy. I don't think even Lauren thought. I think that she thought maybe he'd hit her. Maybe he would do something like that for her.

[Jill]

Or maybe, like, the guys would get in a fight.

[Chloe]

Yes. The idea that, like, he. I think he's trying to kill her.

[Jill]

Yeah. Look, I don't think condone it. I kind of get it, but I don't condone it.

[Chloe]

No, I don't condone it either. All I can say is that I would think and I would hope if I was ever pushed to this point, of course. And girl, I've been pushed, sure. But if I was ever pushed to this point, I would hope that I would have the wherewithal to get myself out of this situation.

[Jill]

No, I agree. I agree. But, like, this is a person who.

[Chloe]

Listen, I mean, I was happy to

[Jill]

be an active participant.

[Chloe]

I hear what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you, you know, but

[Jill]

Lauren calls 91 1. I've been shot in the heart. Are we still lying, Lauren? Even to the 911 call, she said, I've been shot. I've been shot in the heart.

[Chloe]

You don't have a heart, girl.

[Jill]

Her injuries are horrifying. Horrifying, you know, and it's a miracle she survived. But also, like, we don't have to exaggerate.

[Chloe]

I think especially on the 911 call when you've been shot twice.

[Jill]

You're still doing this now, maybe people can say, well, she was shot and it did hit her lungs. So maybe she's assuming that. I don't know.

[Chloe]

How would you even know if you were shot in the heart? You'd be dead?

[Jill]

I don't know. So she's like, I'm losing a lot of blood. So Corporal is here. He's the first officer at the scene. And he's like, it was, in a word, chaotic.

[Chloe]

It was pretty chaotic.

[Jill]

Like, this whole thing has been chaotic. Derek, where you been?

[Chloe]

Yeah. And like, they separate. Michael. We get the story that Michael's like, sitting against a trailer, being like, I had a good life.

[Jill]

Well, Rob, the boyfriend kicked the shit out of him, by the way. Like, kicked the shit. We hear after having kill you.

[Chloe]

The only time Rob has ever stood up for himself in his life. You know what I mean?

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

But like, Rob was also shot. And we get this whole thing that

[Jill]

she was very gray, not really speaking much. She said, help me few times. Based on her appearance, there was a good chance that she was not going

[Chloe]

to survive her injuries. Everyone thinks she's going to die.

[Jill]

And the gun, by the way, is Ruth's black and pink gun. Yes, that's the gun that was used.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Now Lauren is not looking good. The cops are like, you know, there's. There's a good chance she was not going to survive. Meanwhile, Michael. I had a good life. I had a good life. And I'm like, did you?

[Chloe]

Yeah, I know.

[Jill]

So, like, obviously Lauren survives because she's been here this entire time.

[Chloe]

Yeah. But like, the first. Lawrence first thought when she wakes up in the hospital, I cannot wait to get to court and testify against this son of a bitch. Right. Open and closed. Not so fast, Laura. Not so fast.

[Jill]

So Edward is the defense attorney, and he's Michael's defense attorney. He says, I'm the best there is at what I do. I don't advertise. I don't have a website. He's like, remember in Mad Men where Don said to her, she's like, if I had it my way, you would never advertise. Like, you're too good for this.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

But every. Every case is someone's life is in his hands. He pours everything, like, great. That's what you should be doing.

[Chloe]

That is what you should be doing.

[Jill]

Criminal defense lawyer. Yeah, Every. You should give a shit about every case.

[Chloe]

Well, and he describes going to jail to see Michael, and he's like, at first I wasn't sure if I believe this guy, but then he was like. He started to tell me about Lauren, which. Look, I get it. Like, if you can make this defense attorney understand that you were pushed to this point, once again, I don't condone what you did, but if you're telling your story, I sure Michael was a fucking wreck.

[Jill]

Well, he said. Michael says he doesn't remember being at the scene. He doesn't remember shooting Lauren. He does say, someone ruined my life and they did it on purpose. Heard.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

He called the human cops. He called the horse cops. He called everyone. No one helped him. He's talking about the post, the attacks, the yelling, like, it was all too much. So Edward the lawyer is like, in

[Chloe]

deciding how to approach Michael's case, it was clear that a psychiatric defense was something that I needed to.

[Michael]

To look into.

[Jill]

This is clear that a psychiatric defense is something that I should definitely look into.

[Chloe]

It's so funny because we learn here that this, like, insanity defense, it's basically the claim that at the time of the crime, the defendant didn't know that the crime was wrong. And as. As a result of a severe mental disease or defect, it's raised in only 1% of all felony cases in the country. Even Jeffrey Dahmer did not get off on the insanity offense. Same with John Wayne Gacy. And I was like, well, maybe they just don't think that gay people. People can be crazy.

[Jill]

Well, they can't be.

[Chloe]

You looked right at me.

[Jill]

They can be.

[Chloe]

No, they. Absolutely. They get. They got it wrong in those cases,

[Jill]

you know, which the funny thing is,

[Chloe]

like, I would argue that Jeffrey Dahmer absolutely wasn't.

[Jill]

I know there's a whole different argument here that's not this.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Jill]

So Chris is also called the legal mind of the defense team. And I'm like, that's super cool. Ideally, they'd all be legal minds now,

[Chloe]

you would hope, but, like, they all kind of are on the same page that, like, Lauren absolutely drove this man insane and led him to do what he did.

[Jill]

And he was in a delusional state. And. And therefore, because he was so delusional and driven so crazy, he would not be responsible for his actions.

[Chloe]

I just don't think this is possible, you know? No, I just don't buy it.

[Jill]

No, I mean, I understand, like, the way we say it. Not in the legal, like, oh, she drove him crazy. Like, that part I get. When we're talking. How do you say it? Like, colloquially, we're just, like, talking about it, like, in conversation.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Legally, I don't really know. Well, however, I don't.

[Chloe]

Look, I've been thinking about this so much. Right. Like. Like, I've. We've talked about Luigi Mangione on here. Right. My whole thing is, like, I understand that everybody hates that man and that, like, the CEO and like, whatever. I just want to live in a society where you can't just kill people. I was thinking about this in the shower today. I was like. Because there are people who believe as strongly as we all believe that the CEOs of health care companies are evil. There are people who believe as strongly that gay people shouldn't exist.

[Jill]

I hear you.

[Chloe]

And so I just don't want to live in a world where if you believe this about the CEO and you can go shoot him in the middle of the street, that somebody who believes that about gay people can come and shoot me in the middle of the.

[Jill]

Not condoning. I'm not defending. I'm not making excuses.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

At all.

[Chloe]

Like, it is our responsibility to not let ourselves get pushed to this point.

[Jill]

So it's March 28, 2022 opening statements. It is all theater. Edward, the defense lawyer is over the top. Michael is landed on real thick, doing a very unrealistic performance of a crazy person.

[Chloe]

I wrote down. He is literally unrecognizable. He's rocking everything.

[Jill]

It's like he's like he's never seen a room before.

[Chloe]

The lights are he also hissing? He looks like Doc Brown's crazy older brother.

[Jill]

He's like Nell from the movie Nell, who's never seen any. What is this piece of paper? But yet he can use a pen.

[Chloe]

I said he looks like what Benjamin Kyle wishes he had looked like when they found him next to that dumpster by the park.

[Jill]

Very confused, very terrified. Rocking, rocking, Trying so hard to cry, like. And every once in a while he'd be like, ah. Like, he'll be like, pretending that, you know, seeing things. It is borderline offensive because it's not like it's this very stereotypical, like, crazy person on the street. Like, it's. It's not. I find. I don't like it.

[Chloe]

He strikes uncomfortable. He strikes me as like a vain person as well. So I'm kind of shocked that he allowed himself to look like this.

[Jill]

But we see people do this all the time. Being rolled in. In the. In the wheelchair. Now they're all sickly. Oxygen tank, the. You know, Harry Weinstein and all that, you know, Totally. But, like, now we get a quick. And that's not even the worst of it, but we get a quick. A quick shot of Lauren vaping in the documentary interview.

[Chloe]

Absolutely unbelievable.

[Jill]

Everybody here sucks.

[Chloe]

Can I also just say that Edward, the lawyer, for his opening statement, he he. His first words to the jury.

[Lauren]

Help.

[Chloe]

In fear of my life. Someone, anyone, please help me. Those are the cries for help from Michael Barrison. Help me. I'm in fear of my life. Someone, anyone please help me. These were Michael's cries for help. Like, he's literally. It's a performance of streetcar it 100%. And I'm like, you guys, I know.

[Jill]

So we just. Before. We'll get to the prosecutor in a second. But Chris, the prosecutor is like, My point essentially is that choices were made.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

Michael made a lot of choices.

[Chloe]

Chris Shellhorn, he's the chief assistant prosecutor. He's representing Lorde to the film crew. He goes, do I need to project more? I love these people that just. They want the. They want to look good for the Netflix doc.

[Jill]

You know what?

[Lauren]

Good.

[Chloe]

100%.

[Jill]

If this is your one chance, like we were talking about with Davion's sister in the crash in my after party where she's like, this is. Did I love it? No. But it was my one shot to speak.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

And have my voice. Have my voice on the record. We filmed for 16 hours. They used four minutes.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Jill]

The best we got.

[Chloe]

Yes. But like, Chris's point, like, throughout the entire case is like, I don't have the theatrics. I'm not going to cry here. But the point is, you can't just go around shooting people. And Chris, girl, I got to tell you, I agree. And I want to make.

[Jill]

I just.

[Chloe]

I know this is out of context, but I want to make the point. This in my heart does not apply to abused people. This does not apply to people who have to shoot their way out. Like, kill or be killed.

[Jill]

Kill your rapist.

[Chloe]

I'm 100.

[Jill]

I'm Nazi. Kill the rapist.

[Chloe]

Yes, that's it. Merch. Yeah.

[Jill]

Bunch of Nazis kill rapists.

[Chloe]

Yeah. I am not talking about that. No, no, no. You know, no.

[Jill]

This is a very. Don't bean soup me, please, God. This is a very specific situation.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Jill]

So the defense wants to prove that Lauren had a plan to destroy Michael. Like, choices were made on her end, too.

[Chloe]

Guess what? Lauren takes the stand and she's like, you were posting things daily.

[Lauren]

Correct? Correct.

[Chloe]

Once a home record, you're always a home wreck. He is hardly more than pond scum. Weapons hot. Can you just say that Probably. It's about time Lauren gets up and says yes to every question. Did you make these insane Facebook posts? Yeah, I totally did that. Were you talking about Michael? I absolutely was.

[Jill]

Well, her. Discover the discovery. The lawyers are like, I've never seen discovery like this in my life. The case, they had 30 to 40 DVDs of, like, text files. You know how small a text file is?

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

They had almost 20,000 pages of Lauren's Facebook alone.

[Chloe]

That is.

[Jill]

Can you just think about that for a minute?

[Chloe]

That is just. That is just absolutely wild.

[Jill]

Right. And I do want to say we get Dr. Steven. He's a forensic psychiatrist. He's the expert witness for the defense. And he says, I evaluated Michael. He has two diagnoses. One is a delusional disorder that you, you know, you don't get talked out of this false belief that, like, no, she's not trying to kill you. But Michael's like, but what if she is? She says, like, she posted that she. Everyone should be worried, and everyone's in danger.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So he also has persistent depressive disorder. So this document is saying, like, Michael definitely blacked out. He has no memory of what happened, and Lauren pushed him to this place.

[Chloe]

Now, I just want to point out

[Jill]

here to say, like, huh?

[Chloe]

Yes. But before we forget it on cross examination, Michael's own doctor acknowledges that it. Because he says Michael remembers none of this. He remembers, like, the. The sexual abuse allegation goes dark. But in his notes that he took in his session with Michael, he writes in his notes that Michael admitted to him that he remembered getting the gun and driving to Lauren's house.

[Jill]

Right.

[Chloe]

To commit this murder or, like, to commit this act of shoot. But it's left out in the report that was given in discovery.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chloe]

So he wrote it down in his notes in this session, but left it out of what? Of, like, what would be seen by the court. So it is some shady shit. I will just. I will never believe that Michael doesn't remember doing this, that Michael didn't know. I'm not saying that Michael. He got the gun. I'm not saying he knew he was gonna shoot her when he got there. Yeah, but, like, the fact he's saying he doesn't remember shooting her, I don't buy it for a second.

[Jill]

And they also have, like, the defense calls all of these people who, like, saw the crazy firsthand and said Michael was, like, not sleep sleeping. He wasn't eating. He was, like, driven insane. And, like, all those posts are public. There are 20,000 pages of Facebook Posts alone.

[Chloe]

She is awful. And she, like, should not have been allowed to get away with this. She should have been removed from the property. But like, when you are if what these people are saying, Mary Haskins and Justin are saying on the stand, he wasn't eating, he wasn't sleeping. He was in like a delirious state all the time. Michael, I'm so sorry. You have to abandon your property. It's hers now. You have to get out of there.

[Jill]

I agree. I agree more.

[Chloe]

The world, for the good of your yourself, like, get away from it and deal with it later.

[Jill]

I am just speculating wildly here, but I have a feeling that was a major reason he and Mary Haskins broke up because she was like, you need to walk away from this. I'm walking away from this. I can't live like this.

[Chloe]

And for whatever reason, he couldn't do it.

[Jill]

Yeah. But like, Edward the lawyer, the defense lawyer lays it all out and he says to Lauren, who's like, flippant and entitled and an asshole on the stand,

[Chloe]

I cannot believe it's like she didn't have a second of witness prep. I asked her that pipe little question. Did you have a plan to destroy Michael Harrison at some point?

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Jill]

Did you have a plan to destroy Michael? And she said, yes, at some point? Yes.

[Chloe]

It cuts to her lawyer who just hangs his beautiful little head.

[Jill]

And the defense is like, that's it. Game over.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Now the prosecution's whole. Now we switch to the prosecution and essentially their whole thing is, you can't just shoot someone. I don't care. You can't just kill someone.

[Chloe]

And that's the bottom line.

[Jill]

Right now they have their expert witness, these dueling witnesses, like, we see all the time.

[Chloe]

Or exper.

[Jill]

That like, he says, Michael was not insane at the time of the shooting.

[Chloe]

I mean, and this always, like, boggles my mind because, like, they just canceled each other out. Like, yeah, Michael's guy says, yes, he was crazy. Lauren's guy says, no, he wasn't crazy. Like, whatever, it's a wash.

[Jill]

Right? Right. And also, like, the point is they were both being awful to each other. They were doing a lot of similar things to each other. And also I'm like, really, Michael? Like you, I thought you were only crazy. She hasn't been instigating you in quite some time. So this crazy of like, oh, I don't know where I am. Where am I thought. I thought that only happened when you were in this catatonic state. Because she was relentless at the time, and she was relentless, but now, to be playing that role doesn't make any sense.

[Chloe]

The lawyers don't say it. They don't address it.

[Jill]

That makes no. This is like two years later. It makes no sense.

[Chloe]

As though you've just been insane the entire time. It's wild.

[Jill]

It's wild. So he's like, never been outside of his cave. And I'm like, that's. That doesn't make sense.

[Chloe]

Right. So the jury goes out. They're out for several days. Nobody knows what's going to happen. Michael's a wreck. Looks like he might have a heart attack. Lauren can't be in the room for the reading of the verdict. Like, the drama continues to that moment. Mr. Foreman, has the jury agreed upon a verdict in this case?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Chloe]

With regard to count one, attempted murder of Lauren Kannar, what is your verdict? Not guilty by reason of insanity. Michael is found not guilty by reason of insane. I screamed.

[Jill]

I couldn't believe it.

[Chloe]

Jeffrey Dahmer didn't get off on that defense.

[Jill]

It worked.

[Chloe]

It worked.

[Jill]

Now, his reaction is bizarre. And this is where I was like, this is borderline offensive and very uncomfortable. He's, like, shaking. He needs to be held up by his lawyer.

[Michael]

Lawyers.

[Jill]

It's like, girl, the verdict is in. Now's the time. You can turn it off.

[Chloe]

You won. Pull off the toupee. I want to do that thing where he, like, pulls a thing and it's like a nice suit drops out.

[Jill]

Then Edward the lawyer goes, well, to all the people that say it was an act. Fudge you, Fudge you, Ed you. But Netflix wants us to know a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity does not mean a defendant is innocent. Instead, it determines that due to mental. Mental illness or defect, he or she is not criminally responsible.

[Chloe]

And he. He's not, like, set free. He goes to, like, a mental hospital for a year. And it cuts me a year later when Michael is released, Edward the lawyer walks out with him like they just won the prize fight. He's like, freedom to nobody. There's nobody. And even Michael is like, thank, thanks, thanks.

[Jill]

Yeah. Guess who he's dating now?

[Chloe]

He's dating Lara.

[Lauren]

Lara.

[Jill]

L A, R, A. Yeah. Mary Haskins is like, thank God.

[Chloe]

Yeah, they look almost identical.

[Jill]

And so now Lauren, the one who was shot, who, like, started all of this. I'm sorry, Says, you know, it's been a long and difficult road. It's never ending. Look, she was shot twice. Her lung collapsed.

[Chloe]

Yeah, it's awful. But, like, in the end, I actually love how this ends because it cuts Back and forth between Michael and Lauren.

[Lauren]

This is a transcript of one minute.

[Michael]

This stack alone is hundreds of pages.

[Lauren]

Rob, where is Dr. Hassan?

[Chloe]

No, I've got more documents. No, I've got more documents. And they're pulling reams of paper. Like, this whole thing is their whole entire lives. Like, we get the on screen text that says, like, Michael wants to, like, go be in the Olympics, and he wants to, like, whatever, and Lauren wants to go on and continue with the sport. And I'm like, well, then why can't you guys just do it?

[Jill]

If one of them acted like an adult for two seconds, we would not have this documentary.

[Chloe]

No.

[Jill]

Not be here.

[Chloe]

Because, like, it was kind of genius how they did this. Because it's like this whole thing has been adjudicated. Lauren, you got what you wanted. You made him insane. Michael, you got what you wanted. You shot her and got away with it.

[Jill]

Stop talking about it.

[Chloe]

Just move on with your fucking lives. And they don't want to.

[Jill]

They don't want to. They love it. This is all they have. Really? This is all they have. And Lara's roped into it now.

[Chloe]

Yep.

[Jill]

The only thing based on what we know, the only good news, is that it appears that no horses were harmed in the making of this.

[Chloe]

Well, I will say some of the on screen text. December 15, 2025. Michael was banned by SafeSport for sexual harassment, emotional misconduct and violation of policies. What?

[Jill]

Yeah, I don't know the decision. Yeah, I would love to know some more information about this.

[Chloe]

Yeah.

[Jill]

What are we talking about?

[Chloe]

And that's just how it ends. And it's like, I guess, Michael, you're a piece of shit. Lauren, you're a piece of shit. Like, get on with everyone. Everyone is awful. Except the horses.

[Jill]

Except the horses. And Mary Haskins, I guess, who kept her mouth shut, unless she's actually awful, will never know. But, like, I don't know, do what she did. Don't engage.

[Chloe]

Oh, yeah, the lesson here being, punch

[Jill]

Nazis, kill the rapists.

[Chloe]

Don't engage. Oh, my God, girl. We did Untold the shooting at Hawthorne Hill. Holy moly.

[Jill]

See, Hawthorne has a W in it. You still say Hawthorne.

[Chloe]

Hawthorne, yeah, Hawthorne.

[Jill]

See, you can say Hawthorne.

[Chloe]

The shooting at Hawthorne Hill. You know, fam, don't forget. Follow us on YouTube. Over 600,000 subscribers watching our videos. The videos really are very fun to watch. Go check us out there.

[Lauren]

Yep.

[Chloe]

Join us in the Facebook group. Over 60,000 people there. Making friends, having fun.

[Lauren]

Yep.

[Chloe]

What are we doing next?

[Jill]

Well, there's a new season of Worst X ever.

[Lauren]

Netflix.

[Jill]

We're doing season two, episode one, Dating the Deadpool Killer.

[Chloe]

You know, there's also worst neighbor ever now.

[Jill]

I know.

[Chloe]

I just started it.

[Jill]

I watched the first one today. It's the perfect neighborhood all over again.

[Chloe]

Really? 100%.

[Jill]

We're also doing that. Don't worry about that.

[Chloe]

It's such a good series.

[Jill]

We got a lot, you know, got a lot to do. But we can't do two worst blank evers. Not back to back. You know what I mean? But we will absolutely get to it. But yeah, this piece of the Deadpool Killer. Blah, blah, blah.

[Chloe]

All right, fam. Stay tuned for the trailer for that spoiler.

[Jill]

He's not good looking.

[Chloe]

I know.

[Jill]

Hearing about it, I know. He's ugly inside now.

[Chloe]

All right, bye.

[Jill]

We love you. Stay safe, please.

[Chloe]

Bye.

[Jill]

Bye. Stay off the Internet.

[Chloe]

She's got a lot of rules to say week.

[Jill]

I'll be crazy.

[Chloe]

Evil is out there. I use my charm. I use my charm.

[Michael]

Use my good looks. Evil walks among us.

[Jill]

I can sense your fear. I'm like mine. I'm like, you're the prick.

[Chloe]

I thought I was going to die.

[Michael]

100%.

[Chloe]

It's just a rage inside.

[Jill]

Murder.

[Chloe]

Murder.

[Jill]

Just kill, kill, kill.

[Chloe]

I was begging her to leave him. Like, please get away from, from this man. He's going to kill you. We realized that we had a really evil monster on our hands.