A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read (from the Patreon)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Podcast Summary: "A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read"

Podcast Information:

• Title: True Crime Obsessed
• Hosts: Julia Beth Valley & Patrick Hines
• Episode: A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read (from the Patreon)
• Release Date: July 1, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this gripping episode of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Julia Beth Valley and Patrick Hines delve into the controversial case of Karen Reed, accused of manslaughter and later second-degree murder for allegedly hitting Boston police officer John O'Keefe with her SUV and abandoning him in a snowstorm. This episode serves as the first installment of a five-part Patreon-exclusive series, offering an in-depth exploration of the trial's complexities, evidence, and surrounding controversies.

Julia Beth Valley [00:24]: "We're jumping into the regular feed on a not regular show day to give you an episode one of a series we're covering on Patreon."

2. Case Overview

Karen Reed, a 44-year-old single woman with no children, is at the center of this case. Employed in financial services and formerly a lecturer at Bentley University, Reed's life took a drastic turn when she was charged with the death of John O'Keefe, a dedicated Boston police officer deeply involved in supporting his sister's children after personal tragedies.

Patrick Hines [07:04]: "Karen Reed has to be one of the least likable people we've ever covered pretty bad."

3. The Incident: Accident or Intentional?

On January 29, 2022, John O'Keefe was found dead on the lawn of his residence in Canton, Massachusetts. Initial reports suggested a vehicular accident, but discrepancies in the evidence and Karen Reed's behavior during and after the event fueled suspicions of foul play.

3.1. Timeline of Events

• Morning of Incident [22:00 - 27:37]: Karen and John had a tumultuous day filled with fights, primarily over John's responsibilities towards his niece and nephew. Their constant texting reveals a highly volatile relationship.

• Departure to the Albert's House [25:48 - 33:20]: Amid a snowstorm, the couple decided to visit friends at 34 Fairview. Their intoxicated state and erratic behavior raise red flags.

Karen Reed [33:01]: "I did not drive my car into John. Didn't reverse it, did not hit John with my car."

4. Trial and Legal Proceedings

4.1. First Trial and Charges

Initially charged with vehicular manslaughter, Reed's case was elevated to second-degree murder by a state grand jury, indicating intent and premeditation. This upcharge has significantly influenced the trial's trajectory, making it a focal point of legal contention.

Jen McCabe [49:07]: "Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing... Karen's charged with second-degree murder."

4.2. Defense Strategy

Reed's legal team, led by attorney David Yannetti, contends that there may be a deeper conspiracy involving corrupt law enforcement officers who attended the Albert's house. They argue for the necessity of scrutinizing the occupants of the residence to uncover the truth.

David Yannetti [53:47]: "You need to look really hard at the homeowners. You need to look really hard at the occupants of the house."

5. Evidence and Testimonies

5.1. DNA Evidence

Forensic analysis revealed John O'Keefe's DNA on Reed's SUV, suggesting contact during the incident. However, the lack of eyewitnesses complicates the case, as no one directly observed the alleged collision.

Patrick Hines [02:42]: "DNA evidence placed parts of John on Karen's car."

5.2. Voicemail Messages

Reed left multiple voicemails expressing anger, confusion, and accusations towards John, indicating a strained relationship. These recordings have been pivotal in shaping public perception and legal arguments.

Karen Reed [35:39]: "You're a loser yourself. You don't even want to be there."

5.3. Text Messages

A series of contentious texts exchanged between Reed and O'Keefe on the day of the incident reveal escalating tensions and a lack of effective communication, paralleling tumultuous relationship dynamics.

John O'Keefe [22:23]: "I'm sorry. This has been an issue with me for eight years."

6. Conspiracy and Police Corruption

The involvement of multiple law enforcement officers, including Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, has raised suspicions of a potential cover-up. The defense suggests that these officers may have withheld critical information or manipulated evidence to shield themselves and Reed.

Patrick Hines [43:36]: "The cops would have done that already. There's a body on the front lawn and no one in the house. It's weird."

7. Public and Personal Reactions

The Karen Reed case has polarized public opinion, with debates raging over her guilt and the integrity of the Boston Police Department. The emotional toll on families involved, especially the children left orphaned by recent tragedies, adds layers of complexity to the narrative.

Patrick Hines [14:33]: "They're gonna have three tragic deaths in their life, then they're gonna be on the witness stand and two trials about it. It's crazy."

8. Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several quotes encapsulate the essence and emotional weight of the case:

• Jen McCabe [00:55]: "I'm going into the case a little bit cold."

• John O'Keefe [03:28]: "I can't believe what's happening to me."

• Karen Reed [06:10]: "I hate saying it and look like I get it."

• Patrick Hines [49:15]: "You know? You know, so we learn..."

9. Conclusion

"A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read" offers a compelling exploration of a case mired in personal tragedy, legal complexities, and institutional corruption. As Julia Beth Valley and Patrick Hines navigate through testimonies, evidence, and theories, listeners are invited to piece together the puzzle alongside them. The episode sets the stage for deeper investigations in the subsequent installments, promising revelations that could reshape the understanding of this baffling case.

Patrick Hines [58:40]: "And this is one of those cases. Very polarizing, very divisive. Everyone's got a thought and a feeling."

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Note: For a comprehensive analysis and continuation of this case, subscribe to the Patreon series where all five episodes of "A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read" are available ad-free.

Transcript

[Julia Beth Valley]

I just want to know, like, who would play Jen McCabe in the movie?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, who cares? That's what you want to know?

[Julia Beth Valley]

I was thinking about it today. I was like, who would play Jen McCabe in the movie? I can't believe there hasn't been a movie.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, where it's, like, right in the middle. It's a circus. Enough. We're making a movie now. God.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Hi, Julia Beth Valley.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello, Patrick Hines.

[Julia Beth Valley]

All right, fam. We're doing that thing that we love to do. We are jumping into the regular feed on a not regular show day to give you an episode one of a series we're covering on Patreon. So this is a Body in the Snow, the Trial of Karen Reed. There's five episodes. All of them are available right now and ad free on the Patreon.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And when we started recording this, like, months ago now, the second trial was underway. So the verdict wasn't out.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So by even, like, when we finished recording it, we didn't know the verdict. But don't worry, by the time you get to episodes four and five, we jump and do a little intro and we let you know that we know. But this is us, like, going in kind of cold to the case a little bit.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, yeah. We didn't know very much. It's a fascinating. I mean, I was obsessed with this series. I'm so glad that we covered it. It is twisty and turning. Karen Reed is the main talking head. Said they wanted to make this documentary because they wanted it to be like.

[Patrick Hines]

The Staircase, like she went to the filmmaker.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes. So if you like the Staircase, you're going to like this series. It's wild.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what she wanted.

[Julia Beth Valley]

All right, so enjoy it. And we'll say a quick bite on the way out. Karen Reed is accused of hitting John o' Keefe with her SUV and leaving him to die in the snow.

[Patrick Hines]

Their relationship was not a happy one. Not a single witness actually saw this happen.

[Jen McCabe]

There's a whole other side of the story.

[John O'Keefe]

This is funny.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Misery.

[Patrick Hines]

They've got her guilty already. So did you drive your car into John?

[John O'Keefe]

Doing this film is my testimony. I want to say what happened exactly as it happened. John was a Boston police officer. We went to the bar with a bunch of cops. Jen McCabe invited us to the Alberts. Last I ever talked to him. When he got out of my car at Brian Albert's house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Everybody liked Karen and everything changed.

[Jen McCabe]

He was found dead on the lawn of another police officer.

[Julia Beth Valley]

This is one of their own. And that raises the stakes.

[John O'Keefe]

Ms. Reed stated that she hit him three times. I hit him.

[Patrick Hines]

I hit him. I hit him.

[Jen McCabe]

That statement doesn't appear on any of the tapes.

[Patrick Hines]

They were shot.

[John O'Keefe]

I am not on trial. I am a witness. It's impossible to have any sympathy. They're all lying.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She'd smile or laugh.

[Patrick Hines]

She's posing for pictures.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Her behavior in conjunction with the hard evidence points in one direction.

[Patrick Hines]

DNA evidence placed parts of John on Karen's car.

[John O'Keefe]

Feels like I'm in a bad dream. This can't be real.

[Patrick Hines]

She was angry. She had been drinking.

[John O'Keefe]

I hate you.

[Julia Beth Valley]

How many calls? There was over 50.

[Patrick Hines]

Get up in the out of you.

[Julia Beth Valley]

See how crazy she is.

[Jen McCabe]

What did you text about going through Karen Reeve's phone?

[Julia Beth Valley]

No news so far. There were gasps.

[Patrick Hines]

One of the most uncomfortable moments of this entire trial.

[Jen McCabe]

Shame on you, sir.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Reed. Karen Reed.

[John O'Keefe]

Elle magazine wants to feature me.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She was the happiest murder defendant in America. You're either pro Karen Reid or you are pro police.

[Patrick Hines]

It's become a civil war.

[Jen McCabe]

This justice system will never, never be the same after this.

[John O'Keefe]

I can't believe what's happening to me.

[Julia Beth Valley]

We're here with Karen Reed in a hotel room. Say something, please. Please.

[Patrick Hines]

I got a couple big notes at the top of this thing. I've never seen a case so polarizing in my life. Like never. Like never once.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Which is wild because we are never going to know what happened. We are never, ever, ever going to know.

[Patrick Hines]

People are very, very invested in the case.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This is coming from someone who's watching the second trial. Another reminder. We are talking about this documentary.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

We know the second trial is happening right now.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not going to fight with you about this.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm not paying attention to it. So I don't know what's going on in the trial.

[Patrick Hines]

We will do our best to insert things if needed, but we are covering this documentary. We're not covering the trial of Karen Reed.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

We're covering a Body in the snow.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is a five part documentary series.

[Julia Beth Valley]

100.

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to be clear about that.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I think that's fair.

[Patrick Hines]

I think I want everyone's expectations to be realistic about what we're going to be doing and covering.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. Like when Karen reads expected to wear suit and she doesn't want to look like Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, she bought four suits that don't make her look like that. Now she's on to dresses.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Karen Reed has to be one of the least likable people we've Ever covered pretty bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Now I make her a murderer.

[Julia Beth Valley]

No. 100%. Not. Not necessarily. You know, sure.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just saying, like, I think a lot of people have to separate their personal feelings about.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, but the Karen Reed is a very. Like, I use this word because it is the word that appropriately describes. If you look up the definition of this word, it applies.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She is very compelling person. She's very smart. She's very articulate. She certainly believes her own story. But I just wanted to also say I am from this area of the world. Like, I am from Massachusetts. Not the part of Massachusetts. She's from Canton. Like, I know these people. I grew up around these people. When I was watching this, I was texting, unfortunately, probably like that.

[Patrick Hines]

That we have to talk about at length. No one else will.

[Julia Beth Valley]

That was my biggest thing about this trial from the beginning. But I recognize these people. They sound like everybody I grew up around. It is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Well, it opens with the director asking her, yeah, so did you drive your car into John?

[John O'Keefe]

I did not drive my car into John. Didn't reverse it, did not hit John with my car.

[Patrick Hines]

Is there any chance this was an accident?

[John O'Keefe]

There is zero chance this was an accident. There was zero chance John was hitting by a vehicle.

[Patrick Hines]

So did you drive your car into John? Karen hates this question.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Well, wait a second. I really want to talk about this. Because she's very stiff, and at first I'm like, oh. And then she breaks.

[Patrick Hines]

The director's like, I'll go, all right. With the attitude I get. You're tired of it. I understand.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But then we get the real Karen, and this is where I was like, oh, shit. I could watch five episodes of this. Because she's saying, you're tired of it.

[Patrick Hines]

You've spent so much time.

[John O'Keefe]

No, I just. No, I'm not tired of it. I hate answering it because I feel like I'm being so scrutinized. Like, did she blink three times or twice? And did she, like, smirk or look to the right or down and up and left and whatever? And, like, it just feels so fake, even though it's true. I rather, like, explain everything else and, like, I did not hit John with my car. Like, I can't make it sincere enough.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I hate saying it and look like I get it. Like, I understand that. Like, she really will like her or hate her. I don't really like her. She's on trial for her life.

[Patrick Hines]

She.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She will say later, this documentary is her testimony. Like, everything she says, she's got to say it right And I was glad to know that if we had at least five episodes that we're going to get like a real person at points.

[Patrick Hines]

I'd rather explain everything else. Like, I did not hit John with my car. Car.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Wait till we get to the drunk voicemails because, like, I know, I mean, I could do them verbatim.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says, and she's right. She goes, I cannot make it sincere enough. She just goes, I hate saying it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And that is absolutely the truth. That is absolutely the truth.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, talk about a victim getting lost. The victim is John o' Keefe. We have yet to say his name.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know. She has no idea if she killed him. She has no idea. And nobody does. And nobody will ever know.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So we start the Karen reed story. She's 44 years old. She's never been married, no kids. She never wanted that life. Totally get it. She worked in, in a financial services company for decades.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She goes, I don't imagine myself having that white picket fence bullshit.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It is bullshit. Good for her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But I just like the way that she said it. I was like, she's such a specific kind of person.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know, and like, because I talking about this off mic, like, she lives alone in a huge house.

[Patrick Hines]

Like a huge house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Huge, beautiful house. That life is not for me. But I get it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And I think also what she means is I relate to Karen Reed. Zero. But I'm saying, like, I understand that, like what you're supposed to do, like that white picket life you're supposed to have. If you want it and you get it, great. But if, you know, if it's like shoved onto you.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

When are you guys going to have babies? And don't ask me that.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It almost feels like she's been her entire life getting questions like that.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure she has.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

44 year old single woman with no kids. I'm sure she's been asked endlessly who's.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Like, financially successful, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Like her own. Yeah, you know, whatever. You love her or hate her, you can't say. Like, you have to acknowledge that. She's definitely been asked very frustrating questions.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, 100%. She was once a lecturer at Bentley University. We'll find out how she got that job in a minute. But she says, and I'm now being charged with murdering a Boston police officer. I could face life for murder in the second degree.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So she's born and raised in Massachusetts. Older brother, younger sister Karen is the middle child, which we just discussed on the regular feed whether you agree with what Google told me about middle children.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right. Didn't we go through this? I'm a good match for most of it.

[Patrick Hines]

She goes, definitely the most outgoing.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. The way to say it, I'm the middle child.

[Patrick Hines]

She says, I've always been very reactionary and maybe a little impetuous.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I said to my sister the other day, I'm like, I'm doing exactly what I should be doing with my podcast. And she's like. And touring the country with an evening with you? I was like, yes. That's what I was born to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. John O' Keefe is our victim. He died January 29, 2022.

[Julia Beth Valley]

We meet her parents really quickly. Janet's her mom.

[Patrick Hines]

She always brought a lot of fun. Yeah, she's got a great personality. She really does. This is my darling daughter.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I was dean of business at Bentley University. I did that up until the time this event transpired.

[John O'Keefe]

My father loved his job so much. And there's an old phrase, you love your job. You never work a day in your life. And that's my dad. And, I mean, my dad's gonna be 76. I've just turned 44, and I need my dad more than ever.

[Julia Beth Valley]

He's the Dean of Business at Bentley University. Please see earlier statement about how she got that job.

[Patrick Hines]

There it is. Brendan is John's bff. They met when they were four years old. They went to school together. He's like, I've. He's been my best friend for 40 years.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm always jealous of people like this, like, elementary school, middle school, high school. Stayed close in college. He visited me wherever I lived as I moved across the country for my job.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

He's known John for 40 years.

[Patrick Hines]

So John came from a family of five. His parents and his two siblings, Paul and Kristen. He is described as being relentlessly generous.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. And we will see that in spades in two seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So Tara Kerrigan is a friend of John's. She's also an ex.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Related to Nancy? We don't know. It's possible. They live, like, two towns away from each other. Oh, maybe Nancy's from Stoneham.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow. That means nothing to me. I'm. I'm not great at geography to begin with.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Me either. But, like, I just was like, wait, Kerrigan from Massachusetts, Are they related? They look kind of alike.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure that's a question she gets asked often.

[Julia Beth Valley]

As often as Karen gets when he haven't kids.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that's her version of that. But Tara explains.

[John O'Keefe]

Johnny and I started dating when I.

[Patrick Hines]

Was around 25 years old. We had a big love that evolved.

[John O'Keefe]

Into a friendship that lasted a really long time.

[Patrick Hines]

He was just a really sweet, dependable, reliable, honest guy. Very loyal, selfless.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I think there is no kinder adjective than dependable. Like what a nice thing to say about somebody.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure, yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Selfless. We meet another John friend from college. He's the one who tells us that John was always gonna be a cop, that John's grandfather was a cop.

[Patrick Hines]

John actually went to school for criminal justice. And it's amazing that that's not a requirement to be a cop.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

To just fucking walk in and be like, I want a gun.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

There's an epis to the Simpsons. Oh my God. Mike always laughs where I can't remember. He's going to, he's going to roll his eyes at why I can't remember how we got here. But they're like recruiting people to be a cop. And he's like, forget that. When do we get the frickin guns? And it's like, huh? Most people in my experience are just like, when do we, when do I get.

[Julia Beth Valley]

When do we get the guns? Well, John's grandfather's badge number was 490. So when John became a copy, he requested it, but they'd retired the number so we added a 2. So now his badge number was 2490 and all of his friends wear the number. But I was like, if I ever became a cop, my badge number would have to be 24601.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, get in line.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Or like 525,600.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess again, get in line. 8675309. Any like famous pop culture?

[Julia Beth Valley]

No, it's got to be something from the theater. From the theater, from the theater.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean within five years we'll have a jukebox musical totally where that song is in it if we don't have one already. So nine years before John o' Keefe died, his sister Kristen, who they also call Christy, tragically died.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She found out she had a brain tumor. And they said they that she fought really hard, but she died within five months.

[Patrick Hines]

And then two months after that, her husband died of a heart attack.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Like this.

[Patrick Hines]

We were talking about this in the Deadly American Marriage.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's not that hard, but it's because there's American Murder. Like that whole series. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I think they're all doing it on purpose. So that we're like, is this the one I'm supposed to watch? And then they get, like, a stray download because someone thinks they're watching something else.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And whenever I get asked an interview, like, what are the good ones to watch? I'm always like, American Murder, because it was a Lacey Peterson and Gabby Petito.

[John O'Keefe]

Right?

[Julia Beth Valley]

But I was just saying, like, these kids that experienced tragedy after tragedy because John's sister and the husband, who died within two months of each other, had two very young kids. John entered a very difficult situation. He has this niece and nephew that just lost both of their parents.

[Patrick Hines]

And he said, I'm taking the kids. He said, I think my sister would like it. I think she'd be proud of me. I'm super close to the kids anyway, and I want to do this.

[Julia Beth Valley]

There was never a question for Johnny.

[Patrick Hines]

It was never like, oh, should I? Or could I? I have all this other stuff. I have to.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It was just.

[Patrick Hines]

Just did it. He assumed that role rather seamlessly. They needed somebody to be there, and he was there, always there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

John becomes a single parent of two kids overnight by choice.

[Patrick Hines]

Again, everyone says it was never a question.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So they're 8 and 12 at the time.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Those kids are gonna lose John nine years later, and that's just so funny. Awful.

[Patrick Hines]

They're gonna have three tragic deaths in their life, then they're gonna be on the witness stand and two trials about it. It's crazy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's like we were talking in the other episode about how, like, we haven't experienced any tragedy like that yet. There are some kids out there that experience five.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It's really heartbreaking.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's so awful.

[Patrick Hines]

That's why we just, like, have to, like, do our best out there. To be, like, kind to people all the time and be grateful and just be. You know, it's like.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's like how they say it takes nothing to smile, but it takes, like, 87 muscles to frown.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know what I mean? Here I am telling everyone to smile.

[Patrick Hines]

On a needlepoint pillow.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's probably hanging in our back.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like a Telling what? It's like extra words to tell me to smile.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Why don't you make this needle point about how hard it is to not smile.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you going to mansplain how to kneel points? Me too.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But my point is just, like, it's much easier to be kind than it is to be mean.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely. You know, a lot of fudgeing work to be an evil monster. Yes.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And you don't feel good about it.

[Patrick Hines]

Some people, I think, feel pretty great about their.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Give you a couple of names.

[Patrick Hines]

So John and Karen's relationship. They first met way back in 2004 through friends of friends.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They dated for a few weeks. Karen says she went to Ireland for work, just temporarily, but because of that, she stopped seeing him and lost touch.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Which is the thing. She was in Ireland the exact same week as Molly from that other documentary.

[Patrick Hines]

No, they're besties getting cosmos.

[Julia Beth Valley]

My friend Molly.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. But it's interesting because she's like, I was there for work, just separately, but I stopped seeing him anyway. Like, she knew she was coming. Whatever.

[Julia Beth Valley]

They were young. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But they reconnect at the beginning of lockdown because we learned that John, like, I think many people were doing this.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Would never have occurred to me. But get it, John.

[John O'Keefe]

At the beginning of the pandemic, I had been home working remote for about two weeks and was going stir crazy. And I hadn't been on Facebook in years.

[Patrick Hines]

From what I understand. He put out a Facebook message to several ex girlfriends, and she was the one to reply.

[John O'Keefe]

I didn't answer right away because it was like a picture of him with a bunch of kids. I thought, oh, he looks like he's married and he's got kids. And then I ended up reaching back out to him. And then I learned the backstory of where these kids came from.

[Julia Beth Valley]

All single people, just after two weeks of lockdown, just started messaging all of their exes. I know, should we bubble together?

[Patrick Hines]

Like staying sane out there or whatever? The life go to thing was staying sane. Hey, how's. How's quarantine? Remember we called it quarantine?

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know what I remember from the early days of quarantine are the people. And I saw this a lot. I'm gonna remember the days that we didn't have a bedtime, that we got to spend time with the children. My kiddos weren't wondering their kid as the mama bear, the mommy speak mother speak. Like, that shit made me insane.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you remember the time without bedtime Daisy? Always have a bedtime Daisy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm. This. The only thing I'm strict about is bedtime.

[Patrick Hines]

Really?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, very strict.

[Patrick Hines]

Not even like, let's have a snow.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Day and stay up late sometimes. But like most, if it's a weeknight, if it's a school night, her bed is 8:30.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, because yours is. No, you don't want her staying up late.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Well, and we are getting to an age now where we have to start thinking about that. But Like I take sleep for the kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Being like, dad, it's 7:30.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Staying up.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know. But like sleep to me is the most important thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

We learned Karen was quote, the only one who wrote back. And she said this interesting thing where she's like, I know. His Facebook photos made it look like he was married and had kids. So at first I didn't respond, which.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Makes sense and good choice. Karen beat.

[Patrick Hines]

But eventually I responded.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I mean, I mean quarantine got to everybody eventually.

[Patrick Hines]

And then she learned about his sister and his niece and nephew and like that. But she's saying is, yeah, well, I wasn't going to touch that with a ten foot pole because here's this married ex of mine.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Then I did, but then I did. I mean it was. Quarantine was a different time.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm not making an excuse of her, but I will. That the kids were not a turn off for her. She didn't want kids of her own, but she loved John's kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Until they were, until they were a turn off. I guess because we get into it later.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That she's like, I didn't even want kids and now I'm fighting over kids in my relationship. Like, what kind of relationship is this?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a very toxic relationship.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I will say that there's not enough from her of like, oh my God, it's horrible that he's gone. Oh my God, he died.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't get a thing. You don't get a smidge of that.

[Julia Beth Valley]

My guess is that like she's told she can't say that, you know, or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Or maybe like psychologically maybe she's told by her lawyers she shouldn't so she could stay focused on her fight. I don't.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I think there's a little bit of like, if she gives an inch, then they're going to take a mile or whatever. And, and I don't mean this in a denigrating way. She's not a warm and fuzzy person.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's kind of one of the things I find charming about.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I think she would say that. I don't think any. I think anyone's like, wait a second.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But if none of this had ever happened and I was a regular at the waterfall or whatever, I would never be mad when Karen showed up. You know what I mean? Like, she's the kind of person you drink with. Like Karen to me is the kind of person you drink with.

[Patrick Hines]

These are all people you drink with number one. 2. There's a lot of side in this, in season two, the second trial. But they're all, you know, from Massachusetts, so they call sidebars. So we're gonna have another sidebar. And there's a lot of sidebars. And sometimes they take a long time. So now sometimes the Internet is calling it, like, oh, we're heading to a sidebar and Grill for, you know, a little. Little nightcap. Going to the sidebar. And Mike was like, some, like, law school town has to have a bar called Sidebar.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You must. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Sidebar and Grill. So I told you, we talk a little bit about the second trial.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm into it.

[Patrick Hines]

So they get together. They date for, like, two years, of course, up until his death.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And Brendan is saying, everybody likes Karen. And then he sort of changes the scene. He's like, well, nobody was like, he shouldn't be with her. You know?

[Patrick Hines]

So here's the thing. This documentary was Karen's idea. Her. She and her legal team wanted this to happen. And I looked up some stuff about how that came to be.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Hines]

And the Staircase was their inspiration.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, it makes sense.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

The director filmed, like, the Staircase.

[Patrick Hines]

The director says that Karen and her team. He mentioned that case and that documentary specifically.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

And according to the director, Terry, Karen said to her. So this is like a quote from Terry quoting Karen, that Karen was like, look, I don't want to be the Michael Peterson, but I'm the Michael Peterson of this thing. I don't want to be a Staircase case, but I am.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

So like you were saying, she. Karen, sees it as her way of testifying.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And it's crazy because, like, as we're going the ad break, we get the first sort of, like, we hear some of the crazy voice, but. Because at this point, Karen sounded a little too sane.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, she says, though, just before we get to that, she says this is her way of testifying. She's not gonna go on the stand.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She says to us right now she will contradict this in a second. I'm gonna contradict it right now.

[John O'Keefe]

This is my version of testifying. Doing this film is my testimony. This has happened to me. I know what happened between John and me. I know what happened in our life and time spent together before then. I know the events of that morning. I know what I said. I know what I didn't say, and I haven't been able to say it. It's incredibly frustrating. I want to Say what happened exactly as it happened.

[Patrick Hines]

She claims she knows everything that happened. She's absolutely not. She's 100% clear on absolutely everything. We will learn that that's not true. It's also impossible.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because everyone was hammered, so hammered. She's 100% clear on absolutely everything.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Maybe what she means by that is like the story that she's decided is what happened is what she's clear on because there's absolutely no way she's not.

[Patrick Hines]

Even clear on it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

No, it doesn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Weird thing to say.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It is a very weird and a weird thing to include in the documentary.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's a perfect thing to include in the documentary if you're making a documentary trying to show all sides.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Use that.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder what the lawyers, what their stipulations were. I mean, clearly they didn't get final cut, but I wonder why someone wasn't like Karen, don't say that. Can we say that again?

[Julia Beth Valley]

And she's also like, oh, loose can I know. Well, and it's almost like it would have been safer for her to just testify because we got what, 100 hours.

[Patrick Hines]

Of her interview her on the stand.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know. Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

So Karen tells us, us her side of what happened on January 28, 2022. Karen and John get in a big fight that morning. We see the texts. They're all online. I've read all of them.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah. So it's, they're. They're fighting all day. It starts at 10 o' clock in the morning. Text chain. Karen says, you really hurt me this time. And John says, I think this is a very important text. John says, I'm sorry. This has been an issue with me for eight years. It physically hurts me to see everyone else in there, the kids and nephew, their life do things for them and I'm forced to always be the bad guy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And I tell you, that's a real thing that like especially these kids who have been traumatized, they've lost their parents, probably their aunts and uncles want to give them everything they want. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean they're 10 and 14.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. Like putting in boundaries and you know.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Giving some structure. And then I'm sure he was like fun Uncle John.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And now he has to sort of overcorrect that. And like usually I'm just guessing, but I can understand why maybe it would be like, well, John always lets us eat pizza and stay up late.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And now he can't do that. And so now the 10 year old is like, well, you used to let me do that and now you don't.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And also, it's a. It's a shitty double standard for John to have for Karen because Karen's just like, the girlfriend. And of course she's going to a do the thing that's easy for her and be the thing that, like, makes the kids like her. Like, whatever they're fighting about. Like, I'm on Karen's side on this.

[Patrick Hines]

So Karen is so angry that she leaves his house and goes to her gigantic house in Mansfield to work remote all day. So the full text. Text exchange is kind of wild. Like, their relationship was pretty toxic and manipulative. And throughout this whole day, she's calling him over and over and over and over again.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Like, fights to fight and care.

[Patrick Hines]

And he text back, like, stop calling me. I'm not answering. I'm with the kids.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So they were fighting. Like, she really, really wanted to keep the fight going. Like, it's all she wanted. You could read the text. Like, sometimes there'd be a lull, and then 10 minutes later she'd be like, so anyway, you really hurt me. And he's like, I said I was sorry. What do you want?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then she'd be like, so are you going out tonight? And it's just. It's all very high school. These are just scratching the surface of the absolutely immature high school texts. We will get to all of it later. These people have no game.

[Julia Beth Valley]

By the way, Karen is saying that, like, she's saying to us, that day.

[John O'Keefe]

Everyone was getting read for this massive lizard. But I realized I didn't want to be shut in here with the snow. I'd rather be up there with John and the kids and doing something fun. And we always had fun on the weekends.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She's making it sound like she hasn't talked to John all day.

[Patrick Hines]

They were texting all day long.

[Julia Beth Valley]

That's hilarious.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, like, for the last week, like, you're saying it's one of those storms where, like, you're talk. They're talking about it for a week on the news. There's no toilet paper at the store anymore. It's like one of those, like, hunkered down. She likes chaos and she likes drama. Like, in relationships. She just does. And this is a relationship that, based on what I've read, it wasn't great. And there was a lot of like, well, fine, fine. And then she did that and the storm was coming and she's like, shit, I don't want to be here like, whatever. So Karen's dad tells her to stay home.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. He calls at 6:00. Right. And she looks into the camera and she's like, dad, if I just listened to you, none of this would have happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So here's like it's. The texts are interesting because. And we'll get into more of it. It's like she'll try to like bait him into a fight and then she'll be like, so what are you doing later? Like, who are you gonna meet? Where are you going? And it's very like High school toxicity where it's like she doesn't want him going out without her because if they're fighting, maybe he'll cheat on her or, you know, like she just sort of doesn't want him to be out socializing without her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Uh huh. She doesn't feel confident in the relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he is feeling not thrilled about like they've been fighting about the kids a lot. Like neither of them are happy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

When you're getting nothing good out of the relationship, it's time for the relationship to end.

[Patrick Hines]

And neither of them were. And I think Karen didn't want to admit it's a sad thing to admit or whatever. Know no one's really saying what's going.

[Julia Beth Valley]

On and from lockdown is happening and the world is on fire.

[Patrick Hines]

And then it's like, well, we have the. Let's just get through the snowstorm and then we'll pick up.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Kind of like, let's just get through the weekend together and then we'll talk about it. Because John is starting to even in these texts, like, I'm so sick of this.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So here's Karen's timeline.

[John O'Keefe]

I think I left here in Mansfield at 8:30 and I met John at a bar in Canton. See if McCarthy's at 9. And then we went to the waterfall right next door to McCarthy's at the waterfall. It was Jenna, Matt McCabe. We saw Jen McCabe all the time. She coached John's niece's basketball team. So we saw her two or three times a week. And then Brian and Nicole Albert and Brian Higgins were there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

They're not drinking casually, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

At one point in her text, at like 3 o' clock in the afternoon, Karen's like, I'm gonna go get a drink soon. And John's like, I don't know why you're announcing you're gonna get a drink. Like, good for you. Go have fun.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Good for you.

[Patrick Hines]

So I don't know if Karen was Drinking at three in the afternoon or not look snowstorm There are no rules.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Doesn'T matter and it seems like they were so at Waterfall is where they, they run into Jen and Matt McCabe she tells us this is where we meet Jen McCabe also at the bar was Brian and Nicole Alpert and a guy named Brian Higgins Now Karen says.

[Patrick Hines]

That she just met Brian and Nicole Albert a week before yes we'll get into Brian Higgins yeah so it's getting.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Late Karen says that Jen invited them over to the Alberts house like, like the bars are closing and everyone's going.

[Patrick Hines]

11:45 yeah they've been out since 8:50.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Or or drinking since who knows when.

[Patrick Hines]

And yeah like Karen gets to the bar at 8:51 I don't know how long John's been there right.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And Karen says this thing she goes.

[John O'Keefe]

My attitude always when I was out and about with John was you know he's got to blow off steam it suits us all if John blows off a little steam because he always has steam so I said sure, let's go this can't last forever right. Everybody was some level of intoxication that was what we did in Canton everybody drank they leave these bars they're in their little enclaves where they can all go drunk driving on the way home and nobody gets pulled over because no.

[Julia Beth Valley]

One has ever said to us like John's kind of a violent guy John's kind of an angry guy John's got a blow off scene and she's not.

[Patrick Hines]

Saying that either maybe she just means.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Like he's an outgoing guy and he needs to like be around people I.

[Patrick Hines]

Think John had a lot on his shoulders I think the kids are a lot and I think that's what she means again she's not, not the best communicator right. And I think what she meant to say is like because John's always got a lot going on and if he could just go out and have fun for a little bit blow off steam that. But my question is like you could blow off steam where are the kids?

[Julia Beth Valley]

I was just gonna say 14. They're 14 it's like midnight is late for the 14 year old like look the 14 year old in my opinion could babysit the kid until 8 8:30.

[Patrick Hines]

And the kids 10 it's not like it's a toddler right.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But like midnight is scary o' clock for a 14 year old sure. You know what I mean so Karen.

[Patrick Hines]

Doesn'T want to go to the Alberts house she says but she Goes anyway. And you really do. I don't know. Let me know if you've ever had this feeling. But when you're like, I know that eventually I'll be out of here. Like, this can't actually. This isn't my eternity. Yeah, I know that.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I just don't go when I feel like that. Although I almost never feel like that.

[Patrick Hines]

But if it's an obligation or if it's like. Or if you're like watching a play and you're like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen. And you're like, it's going to be intermission soon and then I can leave totally. But like, that moment where you're kind of like. Like, I know intellectually, yes, eventually I'll see my dog again. Eventually I'll be out in the fresh air and I won't be in this horrible situation.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's a shitty way to feel at midnight when you're already 18. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And I just thought that was funny. Like, I didn't even mean to dissect it that much. I was like, I know that feel. Like, this can't. I'll go to the stupid Albert's house. One of their names, she was going.

[Julia Beth Valley]

To make like, I've been yelling at my boyfriend all day. It's going to make him happy. Whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Now they gloss over this, but I want to slow down on it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Let's do 15 minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because they act like it's not a big deal.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone is hammered. When she says they, she's talking about cops.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And friends and family.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I've said many times on the record, I fudgeing, hate drunk driving or driving under the influence.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Most awful thing you can do.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so selfish and reckless and dangerous and stupid.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And all of these cops are doing it. Everyone. The wife of cops, the girlfriends, the cops, the friends of cops, the cops themselves. The cops, the cops, the cops. So they're driving drunk on a regular basis.

[Julia Beth Valley]

The restaurant we're going to learn later is giving them all to go. Cops.

[Patrick Hines]

John o' Keefe is a cop. Brian Albert is a cop. The house they're going to. Brian Higgins works for the atf. They are all law enforcement.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Not to mention they're all pimping parents, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

And this is the start of the whole Blue wall shit that makes me crazy. There's even a photo of John wearing one of those like, blue Lives Matter hats. So these are the kind of cops we're dealing with. They're above the law. So Karen. Karen is Hammered and driving to the Albert's house because Jen McCabe invited them there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

John, for whatever reason is on. Instead of just like dropping a pin or giving them this, we're all in, like, a tiny cul de sac, Right. John is on the phone with Jen, man who's giving directions to the Alberts.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Left at the Duncan.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Julie, they are drunk. He's on the phone. There is a blizzard.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Not good.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Now they're going to. The address is 34 Fairview. God, they must.

[Patrick Hines]

There was a time where I didn't know the words.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know. There is so much footage of the outside of this house. Drone footage, footage from the street, from the sidewalk. Like, they must just be allowed legally to film the house.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course they are, I guess. Well, the Alberts don't live there anymore. They sold that shit.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know.

[Julia Beth Valley]

So they get there and Karen says.

[John O'Keefe]

And we arrive at 34 Fairview. It didn't look like there was any soiree going on. It didn't look inviting. The outside was dark and I didn't see any familiar looking vehicles. And I said, john, can you make sure we're welcome? He said, I'll run in.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She says to John, can you make sure that we're even welcome here? And John says, I'll run in.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's the quote. John takes Caren's full vodka soda, which was sitting in the cup holder.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She goes, john got out of the car. He took my full vodka soda, which was sitting in the cup hold. She's sitting with a cop who's also hammered, sipping on a vodka soda on the way to another cop's house. It is unconscionable. And no one's talking and no one's talking about it.

[Patrick Hines]

And Karen, two seconds ago, was like, I remember everything. I'm super clear, right? And the thing is, I'm not, like, a prude. I'm not. Whatever. But, like, alcohol affects the way you think and your memory. Everybody.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I mean, like, listen to the voicemail. She's screaming at him in two minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

And also eyewitness a kid. Accounts are not very reliable. So even if you're as sober as a duck. Yeah, I don't know where that came from. It's the first thing that came in my mind.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It was so crowded, you couldn't even finish.

[Patrick Hines]

If you're as sober as a cheeseburger, you couldn't. I told the Discord this story, actually, because people were saying that, like, cheeseburgers is a unit of measurement or Whatever.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Just how funny it is. A friend of mine once said I was about to walk into a party that was like all dudes, dudes. And his warning was like, you're gonna be like, they threw like a hot cheeseburger in a pool full of piranhas. And the discord was like, what? Like, okay. And I was like, my point is people have been using cheeseburgers to describe things for quite some time.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh my God, it's a cute cheeseburger.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess I'll take it in a.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Pool full of piranhas. Absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

And I was like, oh yeah, that's also. I'm gonna turn around way up.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And also, where's the nearest in and out?

[Patrick Hines]

But also wears the nearest in an outfit. Yeah. So everyone. The drinking is out of control. Also. Grow the fuck up. You guys are all like in your 40s.

[Julia Beth Valley]

There's like booze if you wanted, whatever. It makes me crazy. John gets out of the car, takes the soda, walks up to the breezeway, which she takes 10 minutes to explain is like the side door, it's not the front door.

[Patrick Hines]

This is actually important though because it's. It comes down to, did John walk into the house? So Karen is saying she saw John walk into the house with her full vodka soda.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Two or three minutes go by and John hasn't returned. She was expecting him to sort of almost wave to her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, because she's like, let me know if there's a part party in there. It doesn't look like there's a party.

[Julia Beth Valley]

At all if this is what happened. You know what I mean? Like, like we've come to accept that she sent him in to see if they were welcome or did they have a big fight and he stormed out of the car.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you know, doubt that she. Look, Karen is self described impulsive.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know how long she waited before she got pissed because she's immediately pissed.

[John O'Keefe]

I waited probably a minute and he doesn't come. And it only took like two or three minutes that for. For me to be irritated. So I started, I called him and he didn't answer. I said, you've got to be kidding me. What are you doing? You just went in. I'm sitting here. Either we're welcome or we're not. But it shouldn't take you five minutes to. To determine that. And then about 10 minutes went by and I, I left.

[Patrick Hines]

She's sitting there. She's enraged that he hasn't come back immediately. According to Karen, she waits a full 10 minutes and then leaves.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is a choice. And I know. I know we're not allowed to say, if I wouldn't do this, then no one would do this. I get it. But to me, if this is what happened, it kind of says a lot about their relationship. I can't imagine. And again, just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean shit.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I get it.

[Patrick Hines]

Just go in.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Or ask a question.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I think that, like, she has no idea what the conversation was that they had in the car that he got out. For some reason, she can't remember if he's coming back or not.

[Patrick Hines]

And it feels like if you're leaving him, you're, like, just making a little chaos just for fun. Just like a little cherry on the top of the night. Let's. Let's pick a fight.

[Julia Beth Valley]

He's got no way to get home. You know what I mean? Like, here is ride. Like, none of this adds up to me. I don't think she has any idea.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just not exactly sure why she would leave and then be mad at him. Because she left.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Because what happened. And I'm happy to be wrong. It's just my perspective that I would be like, choice number one would be like, call someone else in the house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Knock on the door. That would be. Was just. She was so mad she left. That was her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I also get the sense that she doesn't feel like these people like her very much. I feel like she feels like she isn't welcome there.

[Patrick Hines]

And I don't think she was. Yeah, I think if that was her gut, she was. I don't think that they liked her. I don't think she. I mean, she clearly didn't like them. She was dreading going to this house of, like, people she just met the night before. Like, John, it's midnight.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Exactly. Home.

[Patrick Hines]

I get it. I get it. Jen McCabe doesn't seem like the warmest, fuzziest girl in the bunch either. If I'm may, can I do the voicemails now?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes, because she leaves. And the voicemails she leaves for him.

[John O'Keefe]

Were like, john, you are using me right now.

[Patrick Hines]

You're loser yourself. You don't even want to be there. Now you're hammered and sitting in the car. But you left.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You're fucking loser. Fuck yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yourself.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Fuck yourself. It's so Boston.

[Patrick Hines]

She left eight voicemails.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Some of them are her screaming at him, him, accusing him of sleeping somebody else. Like, you're all someone, blah, blah, blah. But it's like you know where he is and you left him.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Some of them are just audio of her, like clomping around the house with her shoes on.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, did she wake up the niece and nephew? She's hammered.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Hammered.

[Patrick Hines]

Some of the messages are literally just her, like, clomping around the house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

She probably just like, well, this is what I'm saying. I could talk about it forever and we will, but we will just never know. We will just never, ever, ever know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like at 12:37, she calls John, I fucking hate you. You 12:42, you just hear the beeping of the garage door and like the shoes on the ground. Then there's another one at 1:00. No, just room tone.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Nothing. She called him millions.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Do you know where I put my. Any idea where my slippers are?

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, then she. She's like, john, I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. I need to go home. You're fucking using me. You're with another girl. You're a fucking loser. Fuck yourself. She is so drunk, drunk that she is now accusing him of like, ditching her and sleeping with someone else and assuming he's going to watch her kids when it sounds also like what Karen has also said is that she was invited to a party she didn't want to go to. Was she welcome there? Probably not. Whatever. She didn't want to go. But she also just told us that she left him.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she was mad at him.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so obvious on the voicemail that she's hammered.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And thinks that he left her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, is that what she thinks?

[Patrick Hines]

She says, I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. You're using me right now. You're fucking another girl. Girl. I'm taking that to mean that she thinks that John is assuming she's going to watch his niece and nephew, the kids, for him while he's out gallivanting.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

But she just told us they were both invited to a party. Whether it's a good. I'm sure it's a terrible party.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't want to go. I totally understand. But you left him.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right, but like, that's what I'm saying. She's not remembering things minute to minute.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julia Beth Valley]

So this is where we learn. John is found dead in the snow the next morning at 6am and obviously we're going to get much more into that later, but it's on, like, local.

[Patrick Hines]

News all over the news. He's a cop. Yeah, he's a Boston cop.

[Julia Beth Valley]

This is how best friend Brendan finds out, like, from another friend, that John is dead.

[Patrick Hines]

So right away, the story is that Karen hit him with her car and left him there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

To me, that is suspicious, right? That is like, somebody made up that story.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, we get Jennifer, who's a retired FBI agent. She's not working on the case. She's just here as, like, an expert in law enforcement, I guess.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She says everything is presenting as a motor vehicle accident. So three days later, Karen is arrested and charged with vehicular mansion slaughter. They'd already taken her car and her cell phone and nobody else's.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's like, I know I'm a suspect.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I want to point out when they say that it's all looking like a normal vehicular homicide. They show us an autopsy photo of his arm, and he looks like he was attacked by a werewolf. I don't know. It doesn't look like he was rammed by a car and then left in the snow.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's a story. I've been hit by a car.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Uhhuh.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm gonna tell you the story. It's a. I'm fine. I was completely fine. It's gonna sound jarring to hear I was leaving a restaurant a million years ago with my friend Mary Kate Burke. Hi.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Friend.

[Patrick Hines]

Went to high school together. It's winter. I'm crossing the street, and there used to be. We don't use the term for it anymore, but you know those cabs that were, like, black cars, they weren't sanctioned by the city.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Free lift.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Basically, they'd, like, try to go around and scam you and be like, pay me 50 bucks to go take you 10 blocks. But it wasn't a real cab.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So he was coming around the corner, and I was crossing the street and 100 miles an hour, and he hit me.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I flew in the air, landed on top of the hood of his car. He jammed on the brakes, and I went flying off the car. Now, my friend Mary Kate, who witnessed this, I don't think has still gone back to that restaurant because something happened. Was so traumatized.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The guy gets out of the car. I get up, and I'm like. Like stars in my eyes. I'm like, what? The guy screams at me, drives away. There were some finance bros who saw the whole thing, tried to chase the car down. They tried to be my, like, nice shining armor, right? But they were like, oh, my God, I can't believe you got Up. Like, are you okay? Hey. The restaurant manager comes running out. Do we need to call the ambulance? And I'm like, no. I'm feeling. I was like. I kind of feel like the worst funny bone I've ever had in my elbow. Like, Mary Kate is hysterical. I mean, I'm consoling her now.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The EMTs get here, they go right to her. They think she got here.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

I was fine. I was like stunned, but fine. So what happened? I was like, like, I was like making jokes with the EMTs. I was like, can you write that? Like I'm dancing and my friend's crying. Like, can you just write that I'm like, being cool about whatever. I was being obnoxious. But it was. It's odd. It's weir. Very weird thing. But what he told me was he goes, the reason you're fine is because. What are you wearing? I was wearing a sweater, a hoodie, a winter coat and a scarf. And he goes, because of those layers. Because I felt the cold of the ground when I felt. When I. First of all, I will never forget what it was, what it sounded like and felt like to be on the hood of someone's car. Like, it's wild. But he goes, the reason you're okay is cuz you were so bundled up.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, otherwise. Because I felt the cold from the cement, from the concrete. Concrete through my jacket. But I had a couple bruises, but that's it. I didn't have any scratches. Yeah, I didn't have anything. But I also was like, fine. Getting hit by a car. So much so that like my. I physically was in the air, like I was fine.

[Julia Beth Valley]

So what you're saying is this amount of bruise, like, it's not even bruising. This amount of like ripped, torn skin doesn't make any sense.

[Patrick Hines]

It feels like you'd have to have your bare arm and have to have.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Been like, dragged by the car.

[Patrick Hines]

Dragged by the car. Those injuries based on, again, my personal experience.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't make sense.

[Julia Beth Valley]

No, they're like a layperson eyes. It doesn't match. Like being just like bumped by a car, which is what they're saying Karen would have done.

[Patrick Hines]

And then he was so drunk he passed out and left him to die there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like that. Those.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It looks like his arms got ripped up by something.

[Patrick Hines]

Because how would it hit his arm? Well, I mean, we'll get into all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So David Yannetti is Karen's lawyer and he's like, look, when I heard that.

[Jen McCabe]

An officer was killed. I knew that there's a heightened sense of importance that is given to those cases. Even if prosecutors thought that they had a case that they couldn't prove, they were not going to let this one go. It became clear that this was going to require a lot of work, so somebody else would have to be brought in.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, my first thing, the minute I. And I have to tell you, going into this documentary, I didn't watch the first trial. I didn't know about this case. I wasn't following it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Me either. So I remember hearing about it. Everyone was talking about it. I was like, I don't know anything about.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, the first time I heard Jen McCabe's name was in this episode. Like, I truly knew nothing.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

My first question is, why didn't anyone descend on that house? This is a cop. He's dead. In the presence of other law enforcement, why didn't they immediately search the house, take the phones of the people in the house? Question. Like, there's a dead body on the front law.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But it feels like hierarchy. Like all. Like one of them is like, we're going to learn. Like a DEA agent. Like, it feels like. Or they're going to protect everybody. Like, if one of the cops. Cops did kill him, like, I feel like if they're higher ranking than John, are they protected?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, the question is, like, if this is a cop and everyone's so devastated and the whole town is out for blood for Karen Reed, that you do what you need to do to get to the bottom of what happened to one of your own. Right?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. But this is where we learn about the. And I don't know if it's real or not, but the, the corruption of the Boston Police Department is apparently legendary.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very real. They are arguably the most corrupt police force in the country. Arguably very well documented. But that's. That's the thing with. I was like, I'm sorry, nobody asked a question about. From the people who live in the house. There's a dead body on your front.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I'm not surprised. Like, this doesn't surprise me just by.

[Patrick Hines]

The point is that it's corrupt. My point is that any other normal fucking person. It's like we just did this with Fox Hollow. You're telling me that one little bone fragment on my lawn, I'd be hauled in, but this guy's allowed to run off to Canada.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. And that. But that's the other thing. And that's what's so crazy making about this case is that I'll also Never believe that five people conspired to kill this guy and then throw him on the lawn and no one's ever going to talk about it.

[Patrick Hines]

I think they think that's like 40 people conspired.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I mean that's just so insane to me. It's. It's all insane, you know, Like, I don't know. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

So her lawyer knows this is going to be unetti's. Like, I can't do this by myself. This is going to be huge. So he wants to put a team together. So Karen actually has the great idea of calling Harvard's Criminal Justice Institute.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Which I was like, can you just call like 411 and get the number for Harvard's Criminal Justice Institute? Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like, I need a lawyer. Let me just call Harvard Law and see if Elle woods is available.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I would truly. And I guess like because she has a high paying job and no dependents. Like she just has all the money, the world for this.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess so.

[Julia Beth Valley]

So like the, the people that she gets on the phone there tell her that they should call Kevin Spacey's guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. They were like, look at the Kevin Spacey case. It's very similar.

[Julia Beth Valley]

No, it doesn't make any sense.

[Patrick Hines]

So call Alan Jackson and Liza Little.

[Jen McCabe]

I got an email and the subject line of the email was something along the lines of murder of a Boston cop. And I took one look at one of the autopsy photos of John o' Keefe and I saw his arm and I said, are you kidding me? He was hit by a car.

[Patrick Hines]

And I actually remember Alan calling me into his office and saying, Liza, you gotta read this. You'll like this case. Like Alan Jackson also prosecuted Phil Spector, so he's prosecuted cases and he's defended. I'm torn. Kevin Spacey sucks, but Phil Spector is a. Also sucks. And he prosecuted Phil Spector, so whatever. Right back to John's death, Karen says, remember at the top of this episode, she's like, this is my testimony because I remember everything that happened perfectly clearly. I. My memories 100%. Karen right now. Yeah. Says I was confused. There was no memory.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Bewildered, Confused.

[Patrick Hines]

Betrayed. Bewildered. Page. There was no memory of anything happening.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. She said, I've been drinking, it was late, I never heard from him again. But then she says, she says through the camera. So I'm thinking, could I have run him over? Did he try to get me as I was leaving and I didn't know it. She's always got the music on really late, loud. It's Snowing.

[Patrick Hines]

The wipers are going.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Wipers. Like, did he hit the back of my car? And I was drunk and. He was drunk and passed out. And she says she. When she asked her attorney, David about that, he's like, girl, if that's what happened, then you are partially responsible for this. And that all sounds so reasonable to me. Like, I'm not saying that's what happened, but there is, like, I can see a case where that's what happened. Sure. She accepts some sort of responsibility. It was an absolute accident. Accident. Like, I do not think that Karen Reed tried to kill John. No, I'm not saying she didn't kill John, but if she did, it was not on purpose.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know, there's.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I don't think it was like, I'll get you or.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right. I don't think I'm gonna back into you. And. No, absolutely not.

[Patrick Hines]

And especially, like, you could talk shit about those voicemails, but that voicemails aren't.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Of someone who thinks that she just killed somebody.

[Patrick Hines]

And even. Because if she hit him, she doesn't remember.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think she knows how she got to his house by herself.

[Julia Beth Valley]

No question. I think that she's like, her memories are coming to her in the moment.

[Patrick Hines]

She's leaving these messages and. As if she woke up and he was gone and off fucking somebody else.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she doesn't. I don't think she fully remembers how she got home, but.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. And maybe it seems like everybody involved, like all of the attorneys and the judges think that she knows what happened and they gotta. They gotta get it out of her.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that's crazy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Where I'm like, she doesn't know.

[Patrick Hines]

That's crazy. Everyone was too drunk.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So at John's funeral, hundreds of police officers are there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's kind of a beautiful thing to.

[Patrick Hines]

See 50 bagpipes, 50 too many.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's very Boston.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very Boston.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But 50, I. I mean, it's. One is too many. No offense.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a. It's a hard. Yeah, it's a hard instrument to listen to.

[Julia Beth Valley]

There's a reason you've never heard, like, the lullaby on the bagpipe, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

When I was bartending at this now defunct old Irish dive, which was so much fucking fun, but at times. Yeah, but, oh, there's a little history on my part. Well, it was my ipod, which is always fun. Like, I got to run the iPad. It was fine. That's where Mickey Dolan's came in. Anyway, so stories for days, but one St. Patrick's Day, because I always had to work St. Patrick's Day. It was hell on earth when it fell on a Saturday or a Friday, by the way, but there would be like bagpipers that would come in and it was a small, crowded bar. And it's like when you're. It feels like it's inside of you.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Uh huh. Yeah. It's a real hard instrument. That's true.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a loud instrument. But they're doing it to pay their respects to John o' Keefe, which is. He's very much getting lost in this story.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And we learned too that Karen, after being arraigned, she said there was a stay away order from John's family so she couldn't go to any of funerals or the public memorials for him. And she says she's never been to his grave.

[Patrick Hines]

She's never been to his grave. She says, I just want all of this behind me.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And I just think again, I don't think she's the best communicator because if she just also would have said, because it makes me. You go, you've never paid your respects once.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know, like you wouldn't go at 3 in the morning. Like that's when I would go.

[Patrick Hines]

And then again, I'm not saying this makes her a murderer.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just saying like it's, you know, she's going to say I did love him or she loved his kids so much. And it's like no matter what your relationship was, I know you were at the tail end of it. I know you guys were breaking up soon.

[Julia Beth Valley]

That's what I was just going to say. We've covered this before. Like when two people are at the end of a shitty relationship and one of them gets murdered, I give the other partner a little bit of room for not like crying and grieving, you know what I mean? Like they kind of hated each other.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And at the same time it's still like, I think people. I'm not saying I feel this way, but I think some people are like, could you just say, I know tragedy.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But like I want that. Like I need a little bit of that.

[Patrick Hines]

You just say, what happened was awful.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It'S horrible, and the world lost a man who was raising his sister's kids.

[Patrick Hines]

We didn't work out, but yeah, yeah, totally.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Everybody else said it right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know?

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know, so we learn, after Karen was charged with manslaughter, the prosecution took the case to a state grand jury and presented second degree murder. And that returned an indictment. The grand jury said, yeah, there. There is enough evidence here for this case to go to trial.

[Jen McCabe]

Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing that's done as a result of acting recklessly, causing the death of another. Karen's charged with second degree murder, which is essentially murder with malice of forethought.

[Patrick Hines]

So I want to slow down on this. This charge means that she killed him with malice and forethought. So it wasn't an accident. Life in prison, no parole. I am telling you as I sit here, we are only here in this circus because of the upcharge.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I am sure of it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

If we. They didn't upcharge her, they would have gotten her on the plea and she would have done probation a couple of months or whatever.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I think she would have been pled out to community service or something, which.

[Julia Beth Valley]

In my opinion would have been appropriate. Like, this was a terrible, terrible accident. They should all be in prison for the rest of their lives through the.

[Patrick Hines]

Drunk driving, endless drinking and driving.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes. And you know what? I hope that they would have gotten her on that. That she ran into him by accident because she was drunk. I hope. Hope they would have. I hope that there would have been more charges added for that.

[Patrick Hines]

The upcharge is why we're here.

[Julia Beth Valley]

100.

[Patrick Hines]

Will it end in us uncovering decades of corruption and a 40 person conspiracy? Maybe.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Maybe.

[Patrick Hines]

But we're only in this circus because of the upcharge.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And if the corruption didn't want to be uncovered.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

They should have just left the original charge the way it was.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Listen, I think that we get some of that. I think there's a lot of buyer's remorse with this grand jury and that's.

[Patrick Hines]

Doubling down in the second trial. Instead of saying, how many times have we. Even with little Miss Innocent.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now that she's out of prison, they're like, I don't know if we're going to retry her. It's like it's a lot of money and resources.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

For what?

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know. And like, you could have kept all your secrets hidden.

[Patrick Hines]

Boston Police would say, I don't know. I'm not an expert. I'm just asking a question. Like, could they say, we're not going to charge her with this, but we're going to charge her with this? Like, did the second trial have to be the same exact charge?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Or could they have just said, and of course her and especially Alan Jackson would never just let this go away. They were going to fight to the death.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

No pun intended. With like, with what we have now. But I wonder if the Commonwealth could have been like, can we get you on the drunk driving thing? And then we could.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And then we'll move on. Right. Well, and also, but like, Karen reads famous now. She loves it. Vogue wants to talk to her. You know what I mean? Like it's. I know. Like Vanity Fair did a whole spread. Like it's. She loves this.

[Patrick Hines]

We will get there. Yeah. So we get the body cam footage of Karen being arrested for the second time.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Arrested again for the upcharge. Yeah.

[John O'Keefe]

I was cuffed by Proctor. I had on boxer shorts, no underpants, tank top. And I had thrown a cardigan on it when I heard them out front. And I had on my. My slippers.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Take care of it. What type of medication do you need?

[John O'Keefe]

I need. Right now, I need medication. I need some personal bathroom items. Can I have normal shoes, please? So I'm not on TV looking like this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Again, your parents can come over here and retrieve anything.

[John O'Keefe]

But I don't want to be on channel four in my pajamas. This is.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I wouldn't worry about the right now.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she says, I don't want to be on channel four in my pajamas. Can I please change? So I'm not on TV looking like this. And former Trooper Proctor who we will get to says, you see how crazy she is? She's more concerned about what she looks like. I want to say, especially as a woman, these photos and videos will live forever. You will be judged. This will be used against you in ways you can't even fathom.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah. And she does talk about how vulnerable she feels wearing boxer shorts and no.

[Patrick Hines]

Underwear with a bunch of men. And God knows what's going to happen to her when she has her handcuffs on.

[Julia Beth Valley]

And she even says, says at one point they say, let's do this around back. And they. She thinks they're gonna physically hurt her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I understand why she doesn't want to be photographed as the crazy lady in the slippers.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Uh huh.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a lot of things that she does here that are meaningless to me.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That people are gonna try to pin on her that she fudgeing did this. And this is one of those things where I understand what she's saying and.

[Julia Beth Valley]

You know, now that you're saying it, it's like maybe people don't think about it and they think that like whatever, she's the perp walk. She got to choose that outfit.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Maybe people think she wanted to wear the slippers and the boxer shorts because she would think it would look sex thing.

[Patrick Hines]

And guess what? They don't let her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

They arrest her and what she's wearing. And eventually you'll see someone brought jeans, say like her.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Her dad or whatever goes to the house and gets clothes, but she's still.

[Patrick Hines]

Wearing the same cardigan in the same tank top. So, like, she doesn't get what she asks for.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So I understand why she asks for it.

[Julia Beth Valley]

So we're back with attorney David, her original attorney, and he's saying the day that Karen was arrested for the second time, he gets back to his home office and his paralegal called and said a guy named Mike called with important information.

[Patrick Hines]

Mike. In quotes.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

Not his real name. Mike.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Not his real, real name. Mike.

[Jen McCabe]

But then he got a call at his office, and this person said in almost whispered tones, you need to look at the folks inside 34 Fairview. You need to look really hard at the homeowners. You need to look really hard at the occupants of the house. Something here is more than meets the eye.

[Patrick Hines]

And again, like, to me, if there's no corrupt. I mean, any other non cop.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The cops would have done that already. There's a body on the front lawn and no one in the house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

It's been there for hours.

[Patrick Hines]

The house gets questioned.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah, 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

Wouldn't that be the first thing. You talk to the people in the house and they haven't yet.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

The other cops haven't talked to the other cops with the dead body on the front lawn. It's weird.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh, God, now I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist. Because they've got a patsy in Karen Reed.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I. You know, even if they didn't beat the hell out of this guy and leave him on their own front lawn, whatever. There's stuff going on with all the people in that house.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

In some way. Whether there was. There was something going on either in the house or with the people in the house that they didn't want anybody knowing about. Whether it has to do with John o' Keefe or not.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They don't want anyone looking at their phones. They don't want anyone looking at their friendship.

[Julia Beth Valley]

This is a. This is interesting that it's not necessarily that they killed him, but it is that they don't want an invest. I hadn't even considered this.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, sure.

[Julia Beth Valley]

That it's not that they killed him, it's that they don't want an investigation into their devices.

[Patrick Hines]

That was the first thing I thought of. Whether they are involved. I'm not saying they're not. I'm not saying they are. Yeah, it's very clear to me. They don't want anybody sniffing around. But the thing that they fucked up on is the upcharge, right? Because now everyone's sniffing around twice for a second time for a second trial. So we don't know who this Mike is. We don't know his connection to the case. He wasn't. He claims he wasn't there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He happens to know a lot of things that went on in the house for someone who wasn't there.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Well, and so this leads us in an interesting direction. So the defense team is saying you need data to prove a conspiracy. If it was a conspiracy to kill John and have Karen take the fall, you need to see people's devices. Right? That's what we're talking about.

[Patrick Hines]

Because the people in the house were Brian Albert, a Boston police sergeant, head of the fugitive unit, Brian Higgins, an ATF agent, and Bessie's with the chief of police. So Liza, little Karen's lawyer, is like, we need to get the phone information. That's how we won the Spacey case. I'm like, liza, please, not now. Liza, girl, please. I forgot about the space of it all. Can we. Not in here.

[Julia Beth Valley]

But she says, this was interesting. The prosecution did an extraction of Jen McCabe's phone. Why would they do that? Because, like, she's a witness for the prosecution. Why would they have done an extraction of Jen McCabe's phone? I don't know, but they did it very weird. So.

[Patrick Hines]

And no one else's is what you're saying.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Just in general, why would they go fishing for information in Jen's phone if it could potentially show things they don't want shown? It feels weird.

[Patrick Hines]

So now you're saying the prosecution's in on the conspiracy?

[Julia Beth Valley]

Well, I'm just saying, even if it's like, well, we don't want to give them anything that can be twisted to make it. You know what I mean? It feels that feels like something the defense would do. Like, we want to see inside the devices. But for whatever reason, the prosecution did this. The defense gets access to this extraction. They give it to some fucking forensic computer guy, and he's going through it. And out of the blue, the computer guy calls up Alan, the attorney. He's like, I just wanted to tell.

[Jen McCabe]

You, I don't know if this means anything to you, but in Jennifer McCabe's phone, there's a Google search for how long to die in the cold. She misspelled the word how spelled it hos. And I said, are you sure? Cuz that wasn't in their report. He said, yeah, I'm sure. And he said, is it 2, 27 and 40 seconds. Okay, what date? They said January 29th.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Jen from inside the house is googling online her phone. How long to die in cold? Well, there is a man on the front lawn dying in the cold.

[Patrick Hines]

Three hours. She's googling this. Allegedly, supposedly three hours before John's body was discovered. This was not in the report that the defense was given.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Right. So this, this information was there, but the prosecution didn't report it.

[Patrick Hines]

We will spend an obscene amount of time on House Long to die in Cold. If you are new to the Karen Reed case and the death of John o' Keefe. Welcome.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Welcome.

[Patrick Hines]

A lot of people think it hinges on how long to die in cold. Yeah, I'm not sure how much it matters. Yeah, we'll dive into.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I've got really strong opinions on this.

[Patrick Hines]

We'll dive into when this Google search was done. Yes, if it happened at 2:27, we'll get into it. But we are here in Canton, Massachusetts for the next several weeks.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Side by side. I'll see. I'll see everyone side by and grill.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Oh my God, girl. Episode one of A Body in the Snow, the Trial of Karen Reed.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And I'm not just saying this because it's currently 110 degrees in New York City right now. Put down whatever you're drinking. Have water instead.

[Julia Beth Valley]

I know, it's why. Okay, let's ease up on the drinking and the driving. Let's do none of that, actually.

[Patrick Hines]

Never do it again.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Now I want to say fam. All five episodes of our coverage are available right now. And Adri over on the Patreon, it's where you can get over 400 full ad free bonus apps to download and binge the second you sign up.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Patreon, patreon.com truecom obsessed. Or you can just go to the show notes of this episode. But get in there. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know your theories. I'm dying to know everyone's opinion and.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone does with this case. This is one of those cases. Very polarizing, very divisive. Everyone's got a thought and a feeling.

[Julia Beth Valley]

When I was in Boston, I polled the audience and I said this on one of our episodes. Like the majority of the audience believe that John was murdered in the house and put out on the front lawn.

[Patrick Hines]

Or in the garage. We'll get there. We'll get there when Netflix comes out, I guess.

[Julia Beth Valley]

All right, fam. We love you. You for checking this out. Go.

[Patrick Hines]

Have a great day.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Drink your water.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, please. Drink your water. Be safe out there. Please. Drinking and driving. Thanks.

[Julia Beth Valley]

Okay, bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Can't believe we have to say that still.