Ashley Madison: Sex, Lies, & Scandal (from Patreon)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed: Ashley Madison – Sex, Lies, & Scandal

Episode Released: November 17, 2024

Overview

In this gripping episode of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Jillian Betavalli (Speaker A) and Patrick Hines (Speaker B) delve into the tumultuous history of the infamous Ashley Madison website. Combining true crime narratives with their signature humor and sass, the duo explores the creation, rise, and eventual downfall of a platform that promised discretion for adulterous affairs but ultimately became a global scandal.

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1. Introduction to the Ashley Madison Series

The episode kicks off with Jillian and Patrick expressing their excitement about launching a Patreon-exclusive series focused on Ashley Madison, a website catering to married individuals seeking extramarital affairs.

• Jillian (00:08): "This is my favorite thing that we get to do. We are dropping the first episode of a really wild, really crazy."
• Patrick (00:18): "It's the Ashley Madison thing from Netflix."

They highlight the site's controversial tagline, “Life is short. Have an affair,” emphasizing the chaotic and messy narratives that follow.

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2. The Founding Vision and Early Success

Jillian recounts attending trade shows where Evan Sunglasses, Ashley Madison's marketing expert, would cheekily cite “the Bible” as the site’s biggest competitor, underscoring the ironic mission of facilitating affairs despite traditional moral standings.

• Jillian (03:04): “Don’t lie to your spouse. Don’t lie to yourself.”

Patrick adds that Ashley Madison was pioneering in the early 2000s during the dot-com boom, positioning itself uniquely by catering exclusively to individuals seeking secrecy in their affairs.

• Patrick (11:35): “Life is short. Have an affair. It’s not hiding it. It’s exactly right.”

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3. Marketing Madness and Gender Dynamics

The hosts critique the site's marketing strategies, noting the overwhelmingly male-centric approach. They discuss how advertisements were predominantly tailored to attract men, often neglecting to appeal effectively to women.

• Jillian (25:08): “The whole thing about that, everything we did was run by all men, especially our marketing team.”

Patrick sarcastically remarks on the lack of female representation in ads, pointing out the flawed understanding of the female demographic.

• Patrick (25:38): “Or even, like, open communication. And Nia doesn't know that things are broken.”

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4. User Experiences: Sam and Nia’s Turbulent Marriage

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the story of Sam and Nia, a young couple whose relationship deteriorates under the strain of Sam’s secret involvement with Ashley Madison. Their narrative serves as a case study for the complex emotional and ethical issues surrounding extramarital affairs facilitated by the website.

• Nia (19:07): “When I'm getting ready to walk down the aisle, and I look forward and I see Sam, he started really, really bawling.”

Jillian and Patrick dissect Sam’s motivations, highlighting his desperate need for validation and attention, which he seeks outside his marriage despite Nia's unwavering dedication.

• Jillian (35:17): “I think that you can also be fine in your marriage and not, like, thrilled, but also want, like, hot sex.”

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5. The Ashley Madison Hack: Chaos Unleashed

The conversation shifts to the catastrophic hack of Ashley Madison, one of the largest data breaches in history. The hosts discuss the immediate repercussions, including public shaming, media frenzy, and the personal devastation for millions of users.

• Patrick (03:42): “This hack is one of the largest data breaches in the world.”

They emphasize how the site’s failure to prioritize cybersecurity over rapid growth led to unparalleled chaos, revealing sensitive information of users globally.

• Jillian (44:14): “But how did you not see this coming? The site was inflammatory on purpose.”

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6. Ethical Implications: Lying vs. Open Communication

Jillian and Patrick engage in a profound discussion on the ethical dimensions of using platforms like Ashley Madison. They argue that transparency and open communication are far healthier alternatives to deceit in relationships.

• Jillian (05:28): “If you hate what you're coming home to, it's not going to be, like, you just have to leave your situation if you're that.”

• Patrick (29:10): “You're doing this to fuck around.”

The hosts advocate for honest conversations about marital dissatisfaction instead of seeking secretive affairs, highlighting the long-term emotional damage caused by deceit.

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7. The Aftermath and Future Episodes

As the episode draws to a close, Jillian and Patrick tease the dramatic consequences of the Ashley Madison hack, promising a deep dive into the fallout in upcoming episodes.

• Jillian (54:13): “This episode ends with the fact that Ashley Madison has been hacked.”

They also hint at exploring themes like open marriages and comparing Ashley Madison to platforms like Grindr, enriching the narrative with broader discussions on relationship dynamics and digital privacy.

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8. Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several impactful quotes underscore the hosts' perspectives:

• Jillian (04:19): “...data breaches in the world. If that information got out, this would ruin a lot of people's lives.”
• Patrick (10:01): “It's the lying that's always going to be the bigger issue. Because that breeds deceit.”
• Jillian (16:43): “There are a million and one reasons why someone would be on this website.”
• Patrick (27:04): “You want, like, hot sex. You know what I mean? It’s just a

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Conclusion

In "Ashley Madison: Sex, Lies, & Scandal," True Crime Obsessed offers a comprehensive and candid exploration of one of the most controversial online platforms ever. Through engaging storytelling, critical analysis, and a sprinkle of humor, Jillian and Patrick uncover the multifaceted impact of Ashley Madison on individual lives and societal norms. This episode serves as a compelling reminder of the profound consequences that can arise when technology intersects with deeply personal aspects of human relationships.

For listeners eager to dive deeper into the scandalous saga of Ashley Madison and access over 400 bonus episodes, head over to their Patreon page at patreon.com/truecrimeobsessed.

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Notable Timestamps and Quotes:

• 00:08 - Jillian: "This is my favorite thing that we get to do."
• 03:04 - Jillian: “Don’t lie to your spouse. Don’t lie to yourself.”
• 11:35 - Patrick: “Life is short. Have an affair. It’s not hiding it. It’s exactly right.”
• 19:07 - Nia: “When I'm getting ready to walk down the aisle..."
• 35:17 - Jillian: “I think that you can also be fine in your marriage..."
• 54:13 - Jillian: “This episode ends with the fact that Ashley Madison has been hacked.”

---

Note: The transcript provided includes additional humorous and off-topic exchanges, which were selectively incorporated to maintain narrative flow and focus on the primary content.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Jillian Betavalli.

[B]

Hey, Patrick Hines.

[A]

This is my favorite thing that we get to do. We are dropping the first episode of a really wild, really crazy. Actually one of my favorite Patreon series that we've covered in recent memory.

[B]

It's the Ashley Madison thing from Netflix.

[A]

It's the Ashley Madison thing. Official title.

[B]

Yeah, the whole. What is it? Ashley Madison. What is the real title?

[A]

I can't even remember.

[B]

All right. The Ashley Madison thing that we did.

[A]

But the fam. The tagline for Ashley Madison, the website which still exists. Exists, by the way, is life is short. Have an affair. If you don't think this is the messiest, most insane sort of like, situation ever covered by a documentary, you would be incorrect.

[B]

Yeah, it is a wild ride. Super highly requested. We did three absolutely manic episodes.

[A]

We hated everybody in this doc. There's one gay guy that I kind of like.

[B]

Oh, with the glasses?

[A]

Yes. He works for Ashley Madison. So he's on the wrong side of.

[B]

History, but little bit of an apologist. He's got cute glasses.

[A]

I guess he probably, like, sings Pink Pony Club in the shower.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Three episodes are available right now and ad free over on the Patreon. It's where you can also get over, like, 400 full ad free bonus episodes of, like, every other series ever made. Like, all the jinx stuff, all of the Natalia Gray stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Love has won the cult of mother God.

[A]

So much cult stuff on the page.

[B]

A lot.

[A]

So much. So enjoy this episode. We'll say a quick goodbye on the way out. But also, please gird your loins. Sometimes we forget to ask.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Just gird them.

[B]

Please. Just gird them. Whatever that means to you.

[A]

Gird them.

[B]

Gird them up.

[A]

Gird them up. I don't know, girl. I. I feel like my. My feelings on this are very complicated.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, and we're just getting started.

[A]

I. We're. I know you were telling me. There's a lot to learn.

[B]

There are bombshells along the way, but we gotta just. We gotta dive.

[A]

All right. Hi. Julia Betavali.

[B]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[A]

Hey, fam. If you are listening to this on the day that it comes out, tonight is our next drag, bingo with the amazing Schwa.

[B]

Oh, I gotta go. Get ready.

[A]

Get ready. Girl, you already look great. You look perfect.

[B]

You know, Always looks great. Schw.

[A]

Schwa opens it with a drag number. She. It's not. She sings live. It's like, the games are so fun. Steve, I promise you, has spent all the last two days running around like a crazy person putting together these amazing prize packages. It's not just like a calendar. It's like a whole.

[B]

It's a whole, like, theme.

[A]

Yeah. Really, really fun. So check your email. All you got to do is register, and then you'll get the link. It's really fun.

[B]

It's really fun.

[A]

It's easy. And we'll see you tonight.

[B]

Yeah, we'll see you there.

[A]

All right, girl. What are we talking about today?

[B]

Okay, we're doing Ashley Madison, Sex, Lies, and Scandal. It's on Netflix. The first episode is called Life is Short. Have an affair, which is the tagline their website, or at least used to be.

[A]

I loved being a dad. I loved my wife.

[B]

It was a beautiful marriage, but it was also just, like, monotonous. I remember seeing an advertisement.

[A]

Life is Short, having an affair.

[B]

I was like, that sounds intriguing. Ashley Madison was ahead of his time.

[A]

The vision was to be the largest and only website for married people who.

[B]

Wanted to have an affair.

[A]

When I would go to trade shows, would say, you know, who's your biggest competitor? And I'd say, the Bible. I thought it was a great idea. Go on a site, and you're able to tell this stranger your deepest, darkest desires.

[B]

I signed up with all my real information, which obviously was a stupid decision. At that time, cybersecurity was just starting to enter the public consciousness.

[A]

Security came up quite frequently. We talked about it.

[B]

We were worried about it.

[A]

Ashley Madison was a cash cow. And then all of a sudden, we got hacked. It was chaos.

[B]

This hack is one of the largest.

[A]

Data breaches in the world. If that information got out, this would ruin a lot of people's lives. Everyone was looking for dirt, looking for names that they recognized. And then name after name started coming out. You had celebrities being disgraced.

[B]

He was an absolute witch hunt.

[A]

I had no idea what was coming.

[B]

It was all over the media, like, what is going on? Such a selfish decision. I felt so humiliated.

[A]

I wanted to get into bed, pull the sheets over my head, and put on the Golden Girls.

[B]

This could be the biggest hack of all time.

[A]

Everyone was wondering who was behind it.

[B]

The theories were all over the place.

[A]

Maybe it was a competitor, cheating husband, a disgruntled employee.

[B]

Here's a giant who done it. This went way, way too far. We all have a list that we're on. That is our secret.

[A]

Accusing people, trying to publicly shame them. Started to realize a, it's going to come out. I do not agree with lying to your spouse at all. The worst thing that's happening Here are people lying to their spouses. That is horrendous. That said, life is short. Have an affair is, like, brilliant because lots of people take him up on it. Yeah.

[B]

My whole thing has always been forever. Like, do what you want to do. Don't hurt anyone. Everyone is a consensual, conscious human being, adult. But, like, just don't lie about it.

[A]

I'll say it here. It just feels like these people have never heard of the concept of an open marriage. And we'll get more into that as well.

[B]

Or even, like, open communication.

[A]

Communication.

[B]

Admitting that they just hate talking to their spouse. And I'm like, I got to tell you, the fling isn't going to fix that.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

So I don't necessarily agree with that. It's the lying. The lying is the worst part.

[B]

But if you hate what you're coming home to, it's not going to, like, you just have to leave your situation if you're that.

[A]

Well, I don't think it's that simple. We'll get into it when we get there. I have. My first note is, oh, my God. Right at the top, we meet some idiot. I'm going to change my opinion about this guy at a particular moment.

[B]

Well, this series knows exactly what it's doing. This is how you start a series about a cheating website.

[A]

Yes. I'm not wearing these glasses, by the way. I don't want to come off as some douche with sunglasses on inside. I have other glasses. I know you'll like these. You know, you. You guys decide. I'm sure I look very good, and I'm not going to regret any of this. They go with the shirt. They have pink lenses, granny glasses a little bit. Yeah. I think they make my face look thinner because they're so big. We're going for the thin. I'm eventually going to find him charming. I did not like him in the beginning.

[B]

Well, his name is Evan. You work for Ashley Madison for over 10 years.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So in case you don't know anything about Ashley Madison, it's a website for married people who want to have an affair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the major thing about it is that it offered you the secrecy. It offered you privacy, and then it got hacked.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's like, the major scandal here.

[A]

Yeah. I knew about the hack, but I didn't really consider what was really at stake with that until I got into this episode.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Evan says something really interesting. He says his favorite part was that people just thought that the website was so outrageous. The idea. And it is. And it is outrageous. And he says, I would go to trade shows and people would ask me, what's your biggest competitor? And he'd say, the Bible.

[B]

Well, and again, what a great segue into Sam.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Speaking of the Bible, Sam grew up in Texas. His father left when Sam was about 13 years old. He loves the movie Big Fish, but one of the movies that came out when I was younger was Big Fish.

[A]

Edward Bloom, played, Amazingly, by Ewan McGregor. And one of the best scenes in that movie is, like, the big scenes where he confesses his dying love to this girl. He turns around and he looks up to the window and he says, sandra.

[B]

Templeton, I love you and I will marry you.

[A]

And that was one of the most.

[B]

Influential movies for me.

[A]

The falling in love aspect, I was.

[B]

Just so drawn to. He's like our friend Romeo Montague. He loves the idea of love.

[A]

Do not bring big fish into this. Big fish. It's perfect.

[B]

He's doing impression. He's like, masterfully played by Ewan McGregor.

[A]

Seen it. I mean, it's one of those beautiful. I've seen Big Fish 7000. It is. It's just really about the purest form of, like, wanting to fall in love.

[B]

Yeah. And Sam says, like, I was just so drawn to the falling in love aspect. Again, masterfully played by Ewan McGregor. He's a big fan.

[A]

Like, honestly, I love Ewan McGregor.

[B]

I do, too.

[A]

But Sam, our Romeo Montague, who just, like, loves love, meets Nia. And he says, when I saw Nia, that was it. I was living my dream. It was like my dream of falling in love, becoming a reality.

[B]

And why are we here, Sam?

[A]

And why are you and Nia being interviewed separately?

[B]

What'd you do, Sam?

[A]

I know.

[B]

What'd you do?

[A]

I know. I've got a pretty good guess. We're only two minutes in, and I got a pretty good guess why we're.

[B]

Here to tell you. I'm not going to say much, but if you think we're on a wild ride with Sam today, I have news for you. It's like an explosion that just won't stop.

[A]

I have so many things to say about Sam.

[B]

What you do, Sam? Why are we here?

[A]

Well, we mean Nia. And, like, Nia describes their wedding day, and she says, when I'm getting ready.

[B]

To walk down the aisle, and I looked forward and I see Sam, he started really, really bawling. It was so amazing for me to see Liza as his wife. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, he really loves me, you know? Like, it was like a dream. Just thought, like, look at what we're promising each other. And if we really, really follow through, this is going to be forever. Like, really. There was no part of me that thought, like, things would turn out the way that they did.

[A]

She's saying, like, if we do this right, this will really be forever.

[B]

They really. I'm not saying this is a joke. I'm just saying, like, their marriage and relationship meant so much to them, but also, like, what it looked like meant a lot to them. And, like, they had these expectations of what it was supposed to look like and be. And right now, in that moment, on their wedding day, happening. It's all happening.

[A]

And they're young. She's 20, he's 24. We see pictures of the wedding day. Sam is a wreck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I have thoughts on that.

[B]

Well, yeah. But first we meet Mark Morgenstern, who's the former creative director. The site was actually founded by his brother.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they learn that 30% of people on regular dating sites are married.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So there was a market for Ashley Madison and like, I'm sorry, it's a great idea.

[A]

This was always going to happen. This is always going to.

[B]

Looking at it by the numbers and a business perspective, it's a great idea.

[A]

Don't lie to your spouse.

[B]

Don't lie.

[A]

Don't lie to yourself.

[B]

Lie.

[A]

If you need to have sex with people outside of your marriage, talk to your spouse. And if your spouse is okay with it, then you have that conversation. And if they're not, you have two choices.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Black. And it's the lying. Yes.

[B]

It's the lying that's always going to be the bigger issue. Because that breeds deceit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's a slippery slope and I don't like it.

[A]

Not to mention, like, how many of these documentaries do we see where the guy accidentally gets the other woman pregnant or somebody gets a disease?

[B]

Like, don't be mean and disrespectful to this person who loves you. And you love also.

[A]

Right. And I just like talking to men, by the way. Like, women are on this site too.

[B]

Like, you know, so. All right. Ashley and Madison were the two most popular names for girls at the time. And someone's like, it seems upper class. I mean, it is clear that this website was run by men and only men.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Woman in the room.

[A]

Not a woman.

[B]

Say in absolutely anything. And we get more of that.

[A]

Never stops these idiot men.

[B]

At one point, they're just like, we didn't focus group anything because a bunch of Genius. Men in a room thought something was a good idea, so we just went right to pray with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We weren't focus grouping anything. Not a woman in sight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except Claire Braunwell, because she's here.

[A]

She's a tech reporter. She does not work for this company.

[B]

She does not. But she says, like, Ashley Madison was ahead of its time. They were not just an online dating pioneer, but in the Internet. At pioneer, the company first launched right.

[A]

In the dot com boom of the early 2000s. The idea of a dating website was.

[B]

Still at that time, you know, a.

[A]

Little out there, A little sort of weird.

[B]

Like, oh, you're going to sign up for a dating website, and then especially you add, it's a dating website for adultery.

[A]

It's, you know, it's certainly a bit.

[B]

Of an out there idea. Ashley Madison was a little bit of a pioneer. It was ahead of its time.

[A]

I didn't realize how early it was. Like, Ashley Madison launched in the early 2000s, like in the dot com boom.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I would have put it in, like, 2015, but no, it was very early. Yeah.

[B]

So the first tagline was when monogamy meets monotony. Which my favorite part, just a whole bunch of men came up with a.

[A]

Whole bunch of men. But also, people are so stupid. They don't know the word monotony. They think it says mahogany.

[B]

Well, I think it was when you read it, monogamy, monotony, all the words together, you're like, is this a wood store? A mahogany? Like, we're not doing it.

[A]

But it's the kind of thing where, like, it really does explain the product exactly what it is. Yeah, it describes it well. But, like, people are too dumb to understand.

[B]

Yeah. They're doing infomercials. Like, we're just learning about how they were trying to get this off the ground and promote it. Enter Noel Biederman.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He shows up and allegedly changes the game. He started his career as a sports lawyer and now he's CEO of Ashley Madison.

[A]

And people just say that he's fearless. He goes for the jugular. He instantly comes up with the tagline, life is short. Have an affair.

[B]

He's kind of like, why are we going to hide it? If we're going to do it, let's do it. So let's be honest, let's be direct, let's say what it is.

[A]

Well, because also, I guess when you're saying, like, when monogamy becomes monotony, what nobody back in the early 2000s would ever think you're telling me to have an affair. This tagline, life is short. Have an affair there.

[B]

It's not hiding it.

[A]

It's exactly right.

[B]

Telling you exactly what it is.

[A]

I don't know why I always think about this, but I went to college in Boston, and there was a college there called Northeastern.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Northeastern, famously, they do trimesters, and their whole thing is about work experience. So one of the three semesters, every year.

[B]

Semester. Their trimester.

[A]

Their trimesters. And one of the three semesters, you go and work in your field. And so their tagline was experience. Period. The difference. Period.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Genius, Right? Like, it's perfect.

[B]

Oh, that's good. That's got Draper.

[A]

I know. I just got chills, and I'm like, great.

[B]

That's a great.

[A]

Something about a great tagline. Life is short. Have an aff. Like, that's exactly what this is.

[B]

Also, if you hate it, you're paying attention to it. You can't stop talking about it, you know? Like, it gets people provocative, you know? So Noel has known Evan Sunglasses.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Since they were kids. They put the fun and dysfunctional, and I'm like, well, there's nothing fun about.

[A]

Meanwhile, Evan and I know this is fine. I'm not judging. I'm just noticing Evan is fully day drinking during his interview, and he's making himself an Amaretto and Coke.

[B]

Barf.

[A]

And then he does.

[B]

That's a very wintry.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Amaretto is so barky. But he does that Patrick Hines thing where, like, he pours in the amount of alcohol, puts the bottle down, pours it just a little bit more, just as a hair, just to be safe I don't have to get back up. You know what I mean? We're doing an interview to be rude.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

You know, I hear.

[B]

Yeah. Now, every series, every documentary, we get a story where I'm like, really? It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. There's always someone who kind of wants to be a little bit of. Wear a little bit of a weird badge for something. And I'm like, if you're bragging about it, it's. So the point is, in seven, Noel Biederman, who's now the CEO, hires Evan Sunglasses to be his marketing expert.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he's like. Which is super weird because in 2007, I'd never once used a computer in my entire life.

[A]

That doesn't make any sense. I know.

[B]

What?

[A]

Well, he's saying that Noel is saying to me, like, you're the best sales guy I know, and you know how to use a computer. Right. And Evan's like, of course I do. Even though he doesn't like. Evan is thinking they're going to pay me 100 grand plus 10%.

[B]

Which is true. He's not making that up. But that's what his salary and he's.

[A]

Going to get on the job. Computer training. I'll learn 10% of the fudgeing company.

[B]

That you jump into the deep us out of the pool.

[A]

Anything.

[B]

Tread water to figure out.

[A]

Evan is the richest person I've ever laid my eyes on.

[B]

Evan is.

[A]

He's got 10% of Ashley Madison.

[B]

Oh, I guess so.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, that's a lot of money.

[B]

Do you know that didn't even occur to me.

[A]

Yeah. Like yeah, yeah.

[B]

So here's Ashley Madison's mission statement.

[A]

You're coming to Ashley Madison because you don't want to blow up your marriage or your relationship.

[B]

The perfect affair is not just meeting someone. It's meeting someone and not getting discovered.

[A]

And so when you have an affair.

[B]

In the workplace, which is our biggest competitor, it's bound to be uncovered.

[A]

The whole business is built on secrecy and discretion. A married guy hooks up with a married woman. Neither one of them is going to squeal on the other one because they both have the same to lose.

[B]

Well, the point is that you can trust the person you're having this affair with because they don't want to blow up their life either.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're not meeting someone in a bar and you like, you're, you're here with very specific intentions. Yeah, that's what the mission statement is.

[A]

It's also so funny because Noel is going to say something later that's kind of bullshit because he's an asshol. But like Noel is saying is that like a lot of the ads that they make are like women out to dinner with their awful derpy husbands who aren't paying any attention to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I bet that's really fudgeing true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These amazing women who are like looking for something, like they don't want to blow up their marriage or whatever, but like they are also looking for some fun and some like, hot sex.

[B]

I gotta tell you, if you have a derpy husband who treats you terribly, blow up that fucking marriage.

[A]

You know what though? You can have a derpy husband who doesn't treat you terribly. You know what I mean? There's a lot.

[B]

It's not easy to blow up a marriage. There are kids and other things involved.

[A]

I know, but also like, I think oh, how do I say this? As, like, a married person of 17 years? Like, I love my husband. I. We have a great, very exciting marriage. So this doesn't apply to me. But look, I think that you can also be fine in your marriage and not, like, thrilled, but also want, like, hot sex. You know what I mean? I'm just looking at it from the point of view of the user here. Like, I think it's.

[B]

There are a million and one reasons why someone would be on this website.

[A]

Yeah. It's just not as black and white as, like, I hate my husband and I want to go. You know what I mean? But I'm just saying marriage is complicated, and this whole thing is complicated. Just stop lying to your people. Have open conversations.

[B]

So, like, Rob, for example, is a guy that we meet who is openly on the site, and he's here with us telling his story. When I first joined, there were not.

[A]

Very many dating sites.

[B]

Nashley Madison was the best one for me.

[A]

I didn't want to get divorced.

[B]

I definitely wasn't looking for someone to replace my wife. One of the reasons Ashley Madison has.

[A]

Worked so well for me allowed me to be very specific in what I was looking for. There are different things that you can.

[B]

Choose about, like dirty talk or stuff like that.

[A]

I can narrow it down by height, by weight, color, their skin. You know, my type.

[B]

Women that usually are younger than myself. And he really loved that you can specify the type of woman you're looking for. Height, weight, race and ethnicity.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

Age, of course, which Rob's like, well, you know, most of the women I'm attracted to are younger than me. I'm like, rob, we get it. I hear you, Rob. And here's the other thing. The site was not a subscription. It ran on credits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you needed credits to message people, and when you ran out of credits, you had to buy more, which is a very, very easy and fast way to rack up a major bill.

[A]

Especially because, as Rob is going to explain to us, like, when you're a man, you know, on this website for the first time, and you're realizing there's 5,000 women around that are potentials, you're going to email all of them. It's a very smart business model to think that these horny men are not going to be able to control themselves.

[B]

And they're just, what's another credit? What's another credit?

[A]

And the credit car over there, I'm not looking at it. And I'm just going to message 8,000 women and hope that One of them responds.

[B]

So I googled. And it would usually show up as like, am Ashley Madison and a bunch of numbers and letters on the credit.

[A]

Card just am I. And then numbers amd.

[B]

So it was just like it looked like a bunch of gibberish on your credit card. And the company would actually change that pretty frequently to help you avoid getting caught.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But so it's not the full name. A, M, B, Q.4.

[A]

Well, and we're going to meet somebody from customer service who's going to tell us exactly what would happen when the wife is perusing the credit card statement.

[B]

I mean, so back to Sam and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Sam was 24 when they got married. She was 20. Which I think is so beyond young. But that's my personal.

[A]

But they're also devout Christians, and I'm not surprised that they're young when they get married.

[B]

I'm not surprised either. So, you know, everything's amazing. Right. They're having lots of kids and all their dreams are coming true. They are thrilled. Now Sam is here.

[A]

I love being a dad. I love my children. Crazy about them. It was a beautiful life.

[B]

But it's also just like this. This sudden inundation of responsibilities. So much responsibility I wasn't ready for. Okay. Paying the bills, keeping up with our.

[A]

Finances, not getting debt. Make sure our mortgage got paid on time.

[B]

Make sure the electric bill didn't go off like it did when I was a kid. I had imagined my life being exciting.

[A]

And it wasn't exciting anymore. Life became monotonous. This just made me crazy.

[B]

I wasn't ready for all of that. I know they're like bills and shit.

[A]

Yet at the same time, you created this proposed. Yes.

[B]

You sobbed at your wedding and made it all about you. You had the kids. And now Sam is feeling trapped.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You can fuck all the way off. Because he's like, this wasn't exciting like the movies. This wasn't my big fish moment. You, Sam, and keep walking because we're all of your choices. And I have to tell you right now, when Sam is feeling trapped in his marriage, which is years ago, when, like, he's feeling this. Neil wasn't even as old as Sam was when he got married to her.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And she's sad. And she has two kids and him as a husband. She's a single mother of three.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you are sitting here telling me that you feel trapped because of your fucking choice.

[A]

And especially because we're going to learn that Nia would double down when she would feel Sam pulling Away. She's not working, so she's getting up early, making his breakfast, making like, doing his laundry, being the, like greeting him at the door when he gets home from work. Trying to be the perfect wife and mother. And like every. You're a married person. Every married person I would imagine I have absolutely felt trapped in my life. What that really is, is it's just panic, it's just insecurity, it's nerves. You're not doing it right, that you're not doing enough. And then you have to look at your life and realize how lucky you are. And you have to have some self awareness to say, like, this is just how I'm feeling today. I'm going to go for a run. Then I'm going to come home and look at my beautiful husband and my beautiful daughter and remember how fucking lucky I am.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think trapped is a huge word for this.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, whatever the word is, you know, like substitute, like, I mean, my God, there are definitely times I'm sitting.

[B]

Homes or, you know, on a Friday.

[A]

Night with my family who I love, but I'm getting texts from my friends who are at the bar and want me to come hang out. And that's just nowhere in my life is that ever going to be possible. And do I have moments of like, I really wish I could do that right now, you know what I mean? Like, of course I do. But then like, this moment with Sam just made me crazy because, like, it's so obvious. Sam, don't you understand that like, everybody who's married, especially so young and having a kid, they feel so lucky and so grateful and sometimes they're like, oh, God, I wish I was out with my friends, you know what I mean?

[B]

But I'm like, she was 20 and again, two kids and you as a husband. She's a single mother of three as far as I'm concerned.

[A]

I agree. But you're also faced with the opportunity to either keep it to yourself and start making really bad, stupid decisions, or you can go to the person that you love. And you guys are so devoutly Christian, maybe you go to your pastor and you sit down and say, I'm struggling.

[B]

I mean, that's like never going to happen in Sam's world.

[A]

And we learn like, can we take this documentary and can people who are in Sam's shoes apply it to their lives?

[B]

I love it. But there's no way that Sam.

[A]

Yeah, there's just so he was just like destined to make bad choices.

[B]

Yeah. So Sam is an ER Nurse, which.

[A]

I applaud him for.

[B]

I was like, forever. I was like, but he sucks. Me too.

[A]

The exact same thing. We all know that nurses are the greatest people to ever. Nurses and lesbians.

[B]

He's an ER nurse. He's working the overnight show.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Super hard job. Right. This is Sam's version of the story. Okay. We're getting a lot more of Sam in the next few episodes, but he's telling us right now. And what I often did was read Yahoo News online. That was a big thing during that time. And I just remember seeing an advertisement for Ashley Madison.

[A]

Life is short. Have an affair. I'm like, that sounds intriguing.

[B]

Life is short.

[A]

They. They're right. They have that right.

[B]

Maybe they have an affair right, too.

[A]

I wanted more of the good stuff that life had to give, so I signed up because it sound like they had the answer.

[B]

Life is short.

[A]

Life is short.

[B]

They're right about that first part. They must be right about the second part. Sam doesn't think for a second. He doesn't stew on. He doesn't say, life is short. Have an affair. They might be right about it. But I have this family. And Sam's telling of the story. Right. At 302, he's signing up to Ashley Madison with his real information, which obviously was a really stupid decision. Says Sam.

[A]

He's like my real age, my real birthday. He put pictures on there with his shirt off. Like, sexy pictures on there.

[B]

The whole thing about the profile is that you can find someone exactly what you're looking for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you're putting really, really personal things in there. You're putting your sexual fantasies, you're putting your sexual preferences, what type of sex you're looking for, what type of dynamic you're looking for things that maybe if you're a guy like Sam, your wife doesn't even know your sexual preferences. What excites you if it's not the kind of boring, basic life that they love? They're happy with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if he's into something else, he's putting it on this website and he's not telling us.

[A]

Well, everyone is like, you know, the journalist is saying to us, like, we weren't even thinking about cyber security at all in 2003 or whatever year this was. Right. And you're just putting this in. It's on no one's radar. Maybe we'll get hacked. And Sam says, I had no problem giving all my personal information to the site because the site would like. And they show us about how, quote, protected the site was. And we just see these pictures of these little, like, lines, and it's got a little badge saying that, like, this site is secure.

[B]

It's on Canva. Essentially. They just got, like. They Googled, like, cartoon lock.

[A]

Yes. But what's really happening is Sam is horny and he doesn't care. And, like, when you're horny like that, all of the concerns about what could be. That's tomorrow's problem right now. You know what I mean?

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the website is horny for his money.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because they are promising. Everything was 100% discreet. That is the point of this website. You don't want to blow up your life. Don't worry about it. Come to us. This is a safe space. The person that you're going to meet also doesn't want to blow up your life. This is the only way to do this.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You still want to go home to your kids and your wife or your husband or whoever you have. So does that other person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let us help you.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

Something in a discreet way.

[A]

If there wasn't just, like, three idiot men running this company, they actually did give a shit about cybersecurity, that probably is exactly what would have happened. You know what I mean?

[B]

So by 2010, they have 7 million members.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Evan Sunglasses. That's just how I'm calling it that we meet a lot of people.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I need a. Yeah.

[A]

So Evan, we'll have a new moniker for him by the end of this episode.

[B]

So Sunglasses is like. Yeah, so the thing about that, everything we did was run by all men, especially our marketing team.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So our marketing was definitely not respectful towards women or even catering to them in any way. It was just for the male gaze.

[A]

All of the ads were just, like, people having sex. And I just kept thinking, if they had one woman in there, because I kept being like, are they really attracting women to the site? But I was like, I don't know that women would want to do this. And I'm like, so for the men, you do the sex ads, but for the women, like, an affair to a woman is like a fancy dinner. And see what. What happens? You know what I mean? Give us that ad to attract the women. Like the derpy husband on the phone, you know, like, not paying attention to you. Cut away to, like, you're in a beautiful dress at a fancy restaurant. Man's, like, looking into your eyes.

[B]

And they try.

[A]

And I'm not saying that that's like, of Course, I think women want sex too. But, like, I'm just saying that would be appealing to women and to me.

[B]

Yeah, they. Well, they tried to do it with an ad where it's like, people having super hot, like, skin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Porn sex, but in the middle of the day. And the commercial was like, these two people are married and they're just not to each other. And I'm like, I get that.

[A]

Yeah, total.

[B]

I mean, that sort of speaks to everyone. Even though it is a very male gaze version of sex with, like, the canopy bed.

[A]

It's ridiculous.

[B]

Get that thing away from me. I don't need more fabric.

[A]

Fabric up in here. I know.

[B]

So, yeah, it was a. Like, it was some guy saw some really hot Skin and Max thing in the 90s, like the red Shoe Diaries or whatever, and then was like, let's make a commercial like that.

[A]

Well, what happens is that it becomes, like, impossible for them to get their ads on regular mainstream tv. So Noel, the CEO, becomes the face of Ashley Madison, and he's going on any TV show that'll have him to talk about, like, what this really is. I read that you actually think that this is a marriage saver.

[B]

How so? It's a preservation device for so many people who are in a marriage who.

[A]

Say, no, no, they love their partners. No.

[B]

Love and sex.

[A]

Love and sex are different things. Marriage is preserved through infidelity. You may not believe it, but so many people. Of course you're wrong.

[B]

Really, honestly, do you believe that rubbish? There's no proof that somehow romantic love should be exclusionary that way. You wouldn't tell me, I have two children. I can only love one of them. That would be a ridiculous notion. But somehow I can only love one woman.

[A]

You know what else would make your marriage better? A conversation about how you're not happy. You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, Rob. We're back with Rob, who is on this website, and he's, you know, complaining about his wife and his life. Everything's so boring after six years. He hates his wife, he hates his kid. He admits that he wasn't having valuable conversations with his wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He admits that he wasn't really interested in her. So Ashley Madison was his solution. So he's like, I guess I'll just go through the motions at home, but I'll have this sort of secret life with Ashley Madison.

[A]

Yeah, he's thinking, like, if I can go have hot sex with, like, random hot women, then I can come home and, like, be a family man.

[B]

And also, like, when, again, when you're In a situation that breeds deceit, you also, like, you have a kid and.

[A]

Like, also, like, if you're not having, like, an exciting sex life with your partner, going and having sex with other people is not going to fix that. So that is not going to get better. You can fix a boring sex life.

[B]

You still have to go home to the life you hate.

[A]

And now you go from sometimes having boring sex with your wife to never, ever having sex with your wife.

[B]

Right. But that's also going to breed things that inside of you that you don't even know. Resentment to her. Well, why can't you be like the state I just had? Also, you're ignoring your kid because you're lying that you can't be home because you're on dates. Like, what are you doing?

[A]

You're, like, you're putting your attention. These dates don't just happen, I'm assuming. I bet it takes a while to find a woman who wants to have sex with you and then, like, setting all that. Like, a major part of your attention is now focused on this website.

[B]

And I hope you're being safe and protecting yourself. If you're having sex with multiple people and then going home and maybe still having sex with your wife. Like, are you using condoms? Like, what is happening here?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, the communication part of it is also, like, just to be, like, logical. You got to have rules with your person.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Which we'll get to.

[A]

And also, like, if you are going to do this and have an open marriage and she gets to go out and have the exciting sex that she wants to have, too, and you're robbing your spouse of the opportunity to do what you're doing.

[B]

And if you don't want that, then get out of the business.

[A]

Get out.

[B]

You're in the wrong business. You know, if you don't want to have an open conversation with your person about what you can do and what they can do do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Then you are doing this for the wrong reason. You're doing this to fuck around.

[A]

Exactly. That's all it is, 100%.

[B]

So Rob describes his first Ashley Madison affair. Yeah, they emailed. They were super into each other.

[A]

He's like, she's too hot for me. I don't know how this happened.

[B]

They very smartly meet outside at a park.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The physical attraction is there. They start making out. They kind of look and like, are we going to get this room? Yes, they do. But I love that they met in a public place first.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so we'll get back to Rob in a Minute.

[A]

Because Nancy Grace is here talking about Satan.

[B]

Is she ever? When is she not? Because Ashley Madison is getting all this free press. So, like, maybe they couldn't air during the super bowl or during CSI or what.

[A]

Sean Hannity is talking about them for 45 minutes. And I've got to tell you, Sean Hannity's audience is exactly. Who wants Ashley Madison? Sean Hannity.

[B]

They want to say Ashley Madison.

[A]

Exactly. Oh, my God.

[B]

Have you heard about that Grinder crashed.

[A]

In the RNC in Milwaukee or wherever it was. Grindr crash at the rnc. It makes me laugh. And it happens every time. Every single time.

[B]

Again, people, honest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With yourself and your people.

[A]

Like, Sean Hannity is virtue signaling about how awful it is. Meanwhile, like, the numbers are through the roof. The, the more bad press Ashley Madison got, the higher their numbers.

[B]

And I'm also like, you know, I'm not defending the Sean Hannity's and Nancy Grace. When it was everyone, it was, it was the Today Show. It was like, everyone is talking about this website which is giving them exactly what they want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we meet Ahmed and he's the former director of product.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, here's the thing. Like, secrecy and discretion, again, were central to the brand. It's not just life is short. Have an affair. Having to affair, like, safely, where no one will ever find out and you'll be protected. And that sort of gave people a lot of freedom. They thought.

[A]

Yeah. But also there's a back end because the affair, like, you can only do this if you're paying for a service via credit cards. Via credit cards. So we meet Kathy, the customer service rep, and I went, yikes.

[B]

She worked there for a grueling four and a half.

[A]

Yeah. And she's like, I believe in monogamy, but I don't judge people who don't.

[B]

Yeah, whatever.

[A]

Whatever. But like, we also just don't condone lying. You know what I mean? Like, it's the lying.

[B]

But speaking of. Because Kathy is customer service and the wives.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Because I guess they would see the name or they'd see like, gibberish on the credit card.

[A]

If you have like a joint credit card account with your husband, but it's like his name on the card. Of course. Like, if the wife is the one who does the bills in your family, she's going through and she's like, what's this $19 charge?

[B]

But also, I don't understand how they're getting a phone call because it would not be Ashley Madison. And the minute she Googled Ashley Madison. The website comes up.

[A]

Well, I think. I mean, I don't know how any of this works, but somehow Ashley Madison is operating as like a third party billing. There has to be a number for people.

[B]

I guess so, yeah.

[A]

And there is, because it's happening. I had a lot of wives calling.

[B]

They would say, I have this $19.

[A]

Charge on my card.

[B]

I don't recognize it. We would just tell them, you know.

[A]

It'S not your name on the card.

[B]

Unfortunately, we're unable to assist you. So a lot would call back with their husbands. Agents would say, well, we are a generalized billing company and we bill across many different web properties. Which was true, but we will reverse the charge so you don't have to worry about it.

[A]

Sometimes the wives would call back with the husband.

[B]

Now we're getting a little accusatory, I think.

[A]

Yes. So then the Ashley Madison team would say, like, oh, we're third party billing. We oversee lots of different, you know, things that. This could be anything. We don't really know which one it is. But you know what, we'll charge it back. No worries. Don't worry about it. And then the husband just goes and signs up with a secret credit card.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So back with Sam and Nia, right? They got married super young. Sam loves love, but he's an asshole. So Nia is sitting here to camera telling us, like, when she met Sam, when they got married, Sam was amazing. He was everything to her and everything. Like, he ticked everything on her list. And the number one thing on her list was fidelity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And she's like, I see a guy like Sam, he's a Christian. He also wasn't a party guy. She's like, he was a good guy. And in Nia's mind, there's no way in hell, literally, that Sam would cheat on her. That was their thing.

[A]

And then it immediately cuts to Sam, who's like, I hid the app on my phone. I would hide it within a folder and just like dump a lot of other things in there.

[B]

So if she was actually looking for anything, she wouldn't click on that folder. It'd be just full of junk. I paid for Elite membership to give.

[A]

Me more features such as messaging, maybe multiple winks, you know, because Ashley Madison had that function where you go wink at each other. And I think maybe they also said.

[B]

Your messages to the women would be.

[A]

Prioritized over other men's messages. Messages.

[B]

My stupid screen name was Dirty Little Secret Man. So meanwhile, Sam is on Ashley Madison.

[A]

He's paying for Elite Membership.

[B]

An elite membership. Which means when you have an elite membership, you get more credits for your money.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And his messages to women would be prioritized in their inbox.

[A]

That is the fact that it's like.

[B]

A verified account, but also, like, if.

[A]

Jillian is getting 40 messages, Sam's is going to the top.

[B]

Sam's is going to the top. Or salmon. Whoever paid. Yes, you get it first.

[A]

Wild. Wild.

[B]

Did you notice Sam's stupid fucking screen name?

[A]

Dirty little secret man with men are such idiots.

[B]

How is that supposed to entice a woman?

[A]

I know.

[B]

Dirty Little secret man.

[A]

I know, but you're on a site where the woman also has a dirty little secret. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of the hot part of the whole thing.

[B]

I just see little man.

[A]

I.

[B]

Dirty little secret.

[A]

You're right. The little man stands out.

[B]

Makes you sound like a childish, immature nightmare that I'm trying to get away from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that is a. That men are idiot. There's nothing about that that's enticing to anybody.

[A]

No.

[B]

No one is like, ooh, dirty little secret man.

[A]

Dirty little secret man does make it sound like you secret agent man.

[B]

It sounds like it's weird.

[A]

It does sound like you're looking at gross things in the basement with, like, that single light bulb.

[B]

You know, Michael Scott signs up and he's like, I put little kid lover as my name so everyone knows I'm a family man who wants kids. It's like that. It's like it's not doing what you think it's doing. Sam.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

And Sam also, like, he makes me so mad because he says. And he thinks this is making it better, but it's not, because he says, I wasn't even out for sex at first.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I would see these really sexy photos and scroll right by them. I wasn't horny. My wife was satisfying me. I didn't even know what I wanted. I just wanted attention. Sam, like, that makes it a million times worse.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Just say that it was a physical compulsion and it didn't mean anything.

[A]

You and I were talking about this off night before we started. I actually really don't think. And I have only seen episode one. I don't know that I think that it was about sex for Sam. I think that he was absolutely. Has a desperate need for validation.

[B]

He absolutely. He just wants to find more and more women who's going to be like, you're so great.

[A]

You're so hot.

[B]

And also just doing what Nia Is already doing.

[A]

Yes, yes. Like, but Sam has a hole in his soul.

[B]

He'll never be satisfied. Run.

[A]

There's something wrong with him. He will truly, truly never be satisfied. He will cheat on whoever he's with.

[B]

Unless he's never going to be enough.

[A]

You know what? But, like, there is is help, Sam. There is help. You can recognize this about yourself and go get and fam. The reason I'm saying this so emphatically is because something crazy happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a few minutes.

[B]

But the fact that he's even lying to us now and lying to himself, being like, I didn't know what I wanted. You knew exactly what you wanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think this is making it better, but it's not right and it's hurtful to Nia.

[A]

It would actually be better if you were just horny and you wanted.

[B]

That's what I'm saying was like, I was, you know, we have the kids and we. I just needed a release, whatever. Some stupid bullshit, like, whatever. But to be like, no, I was super sexually satisfied. I just. I don't know, I wanted the attention, girl. Oh, my God. Because the thing that is so. I know about that is that Nia, because he has a guilty conscience. Yes, a little bit. She senses distance.

[A]

Like I was saying before, this takes up a lot of your energy. So in all of his downtime at work, where he used to be texting.

[B]

His wife or being an ER nurse, saving lives, hopefully.

[A]

But I mean, when he has downtime, I'm sure he would call her, he would text her, he would send pictures. And now he's spending all of that free time on the website. So all she knows is he stopped communicating with her. So Nia is saying, waking up early, making him breakfast, I'm having his clothes ready. I'm being the perfect wife.

[B]

She's laying his clothes out for him. Let me ask you something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's an ER nurse, right? Scrubs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like he's picking out an outfit.

[A]

No.

[B]

But this is what she's doing. She's going above and beyond. She's waking up extra early for him because he worked the overnight shift, so she'd be up at 4 in the morning making him a lovely breakfast for him to come home.

[A]

She said, I wanted to be the perfect wife. I wanted him to feel lucky. Not as a reflection of me. I just love. Loved him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She just wants him to feel like the love that she feels for him.

[B]

You know, like on paper. And to a lot of people, Nia is, you know, like if you were to ask Sam, pre marriage, pre Ashley Madison, Nia's doing everything right for him.

[A]

And I want to say it might make you a monster, Sam, but like if you wake up one day and you're like, I created this life for myself and I'm super fudgeing unhappy, you are allowed to leave. You have to be a parent to your kid.

[B]

You have to kill parent.

[A]

You are allowed to leave. You are allowed to say, I really fudged up, Nia. I'm so fucking sorry. I'm a broken person. This is not the life I want. I'm going to move out and work on myself. You are allowed to do that, but that requires being honest and communicating.

[B]

But he doesn't want that. He. What he wants is the perfect photos and the picture and everyone saying what a great life. And he wants the breakfast at 4 in the morning. He wants the clothes laid out for. Yeah, this is the life he wants. He just doesn't want the hard parts of it.

[A]

That's exactly right. And I'll tell you, there are people.

[B]

Just wants to fuck around.

[A]

I know, I know. And the people who don't want the hard part, like you really can grow into it. You really can say, I'm a kid, I'm not ready for this kind of. I never had a dad to teach me some of the things I think a dad should teach me or whatever. And I'm scared and this is scary. And then you stick around and you stick it out and you learn to love your life. The other thing I wanted to say about the. Him just needing the attention. That beautiful story about him sobbing at their wedding. As soon as I got to this part, I was like, oh, he was crying. He was sobbing at the wedding. To make people look at him instead of her. 100% to take the eyes off of his wife and put them on him.

[B]

And I think because he knows he's not a good guy. What a good guy. Look at him. He loves her so much. It's all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think what we're also not talking about is the very conservative religious upbringing that they both have.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because they were married incredibly young. 20 years old, I think is too young to be married and 24. And they just didn't like you could say, get married at 20 and 24, don't have kids for another six years. They didn't have that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I think Neil was doing what she was brought up to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think now we're talking in a. I mean, Sam absolutely shouldn't have made these. But I'm saying, like, I think the reason the train left the station and was off the rails so fast is because that's what they were supposed to.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

And so he wants that life and what it looks like. And he's that great guy who cried at the wedding. Remember how he cried at the wedding?

[A]

Sob.

[B]

Because he knows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He knows that he can't really do it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, clearly the site needs women for it.

[A]

Yes. So the way this was my big question the whole time, like, are they actually getting. Is it like 8 billion men and 25 women?

[B]

You know, I mean, yes and no. We'll get into it. But women. Right now, in this episode, women join for free. Free.

[A]

Yes. And can use all of the features of the site for free.

[B]

We're not paying for the elite membership.

[A]

Ladies night. Every night.

[B]

Every night. Right. The men had to pay because obviously if the women weren't there, the men wouldn't pay. And also, this is a very heteronormative website.

[A]

I mean, it makes me crazy from the. Not that I want this open to gays or whatever, but, like, it's also.

[B]

I mean, the gays have Grinder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like. But the point, like, what they're saying.

[A]

Funny, because I was talking to. But I know so. So many gay men in relationships who are all in open relationships. You know what I mean? And it's like, the Grindr is for them, minus the lying.

[B]

Can you say on Grindr? I've never been on Grindr. I've only seen. I've seen my friends, like, oh, I got a Met or whatever. But I've never, like, explored the website. Can you say, I'm married and I'm in an open relationship?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

That you can kind of say that you can sort of hack your own Ashley Madison situation where it's like, I'm married. I'm looking for another married person.

[A]

I have definitely a friends who are on Grindr. And it says, like, open relationship or whatever. Like, what is going through my mind, this whole, like, new thing of, like, all these gay men being in these open relationships. Like, that's what everyone is talking about in pop culture right now.

[B]

It's not new.

[A]

Well, it's new to me, I guess I'm just, like, learning how many of my friends are in these open relationships. And I'm like, it just cuts out the lying. You know what I mean? It cuts out the lying. The communication is good, you know, the.

[B]

Lying is the worst part, because I think if you're lying. You don't want the open, you know, like.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And I know that sounds, like, so simple, but what I'm saying is, like, Sam didn't want to be open with me. He didn't want it. He loved what it looked like and the little package and the bow that it was in. He doesn't want the openness because we will talk to people like Stephanie, who did.

[A]

It was hard to just be with just one person. And even though I'm like, going, okay, I love this person, you know, I'm not gonna cheat on them. But then I cheat on them, you know, and then I say, okay, I'm not gonna cheat on this one. And then I cheat on him. And I'm like, you know, am I. Am I a serial cheater? But everyone I've ever been with knows I'm a sexual person. Stephanie loves having sex, and she calls.

[B]

Herself a serial cheater because she's like, I didn't want to cheat, but I always ended up cheating. And I felt bad. And I'm like, stephanie, girl, I'm saying this with love. You're just not a monogamous, and that's fine. But you sort of like, now that you know that, like, you were a serial cheater, but I think you just are the person that we were just talking about. Just be open about the person. Like, you could be on a first date and be like, it's never going to be just me and you. So remember Stephanie? We'll get back.

[A]

Yeah, he put a bit of Stephanie. She's also telling us all about her sex life while she's baking cookies. I'm obsessed with her.

[B]

She's like, everyone deserves to be sexually and mentally fulfilled. Yes. Hard. Agree.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Can I call you Stuff Stephanie, I'm going to stick with.

[A]

She's also wearing a rainbow bracelet.

[B]

I don't love her.

[A]

I noticed it. So by 2012, the site has 15 million members in the U.S. but they say when we launched in other countries. Countries, it went crazy.

[B]

Did you catch the tagline for India?

[A]

Oh, my God. They say they launched in 35 countries in 50 languages. In India, there's a billboard that reads, your parents arranged your marriage. Let us help with your affair.

[B]

My God.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I was like, oh, my God.

[A]

And they say people were fucking outraged. And I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Indian culture for repeating the thing that was said in the documentary, but it's like, the point is they don't give a fuck.

[B]

They don't give a Fuck.

[A]

They don't give a.

[B]

Do what worked.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In America. So now that they're going international, this is going to get them on the news.

[A]

I mean, that is all they want. Right?

[B]

They want to offend people.

[A]

That's the India version of life is short. Have an affair.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

So they just wanted any attention the way they can get it. They want it to be talked about, they want it to be provocative. That's it.

[A]

I mean there are website built to help you cheat on your spouse, you know what I mean?

[B]

Discreetly. Or so we thought.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So by 2015, yeah, they had 37 million users.

[A]

The revenue is going crazy. They are doubling their revenue every month.

[B]

But we're learning though that they're caring more about the growth and all that security that they're bragging about. Actually bragging about. Yeah, it's kind of fallen to back burner. Security was something that came up quite frequently, but it just kept falling to the back burner because it was understood that we could make this work while keeping up with our growth plans. That is what everyone was focused on every single day. I think it was very well understood that if any of the web properties.

[A]

Were hacked, it would have been almost catastrophic.

[B]

The hope was that it wouldn't happen.

[A]

But they were just fingers crossed that no one's going to do it.

[B]

But how did you not see this coming? The site was inflammatory on purpose.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You didn't think that maybe someone would want to get revenge, you know, or teach a lesson of some kind.

[A]

Even on that level, by 2015, like we knew about cybersecurity, we knew about hacks. We, like, you don't have the excuse of like, it had never happened to anyone. So it could have happened to anyone.

[B]

Or even something. Not even a major hack, something as small as someone's friend got into their account or something. People are paying for the security you're promising.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even again on a basic business level.

[A]

And like Evan, you know, Glasses is back to say, the promise of security and anonymity. That was just something we said. We never did it. We were gambling with people's lives and they really were.

[B]

Because this becomes a fudgeing mess bigger than anyone thought. It's not just like, oh, your wife's going to get mad. It becomes much, much, much, much bigger than that.

[A]

And it's also like now we learn that Noel, the CEO, the one who's like going saying like, have an affair. Let me help you. He's married and is quote, in a monogamous Marriage.

[B]

This poor. He's dragging his poor woman. I know the View and all these.

[A]

I mean, like, he brings her out in front of Elizabeth Hasselback. The fact that I had to deal with Elizabeth today isn't fun. Elizabeth Hasbrick is screaming at this woman. And the woman is saying, like, we're monogamous and we're just facilitating a service.

[B]

And what she's saying is, like, our relationship is amazing and perfect and it's puppies and rainbows. And I'm like, well, the more you say it, the less it is. Of course, obviously we know that. But what she's saying is like, you know, almost like, with pity. Like, we have this amazing relationship. Not everybody does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So for the people who aren't like us, go to our website and it's like, that's a really dangerous thing to put on the View.

[A]

And she's saying, like, if he did this to me, I'd be devastated, but.

[B]

I wouldn't blame a website.

[A]

Tell me we're gonna learn that he's on there. Tell me we're gonna learn.

[B]

We're gonna learn a lot of things. We're gonna learn a lot about a lot. So this is where we learn. Also, though, speaking of something we learned in this episode, Evan Sunglasses is gay and has been married to a man for 23 years.

[A]

Because we hear the producer, what would you do if your husband cheated on you? And I, like, gasped in my seat. I did not see this coming.

[B]

I didn't either.

[A]

23 years, monogamous.

[B]

And he makes a point to say that. And he's like, I have to tell you, I would be shocked if that happened. But he goes on to say, the cheater isn't the only one to blame.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He says either the cheater is a narcissistic sociopath and it's who they are and there's nothing to be done. Or something is broken in your union.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, right. But if you feel like something's broken, you can also start the conversation about it. For example, Sam and Nia. Nia doesn't know that things are broken.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if something's broken, you. You can't blame Nia.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Sam. When Sam isn't saying to her, I'm having a problem here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What is he supposed to do? She's laying out his fucking clothes for him like he's a 4 year old.

[A]

Is there a world in which Nia would say, if they have the conversation, sure, go out and have sex with other people? Absolutely not. No. But that's where Sam, you got to be the grown up and make the decision.

[B]

Like conversation.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And I'm sure that like no one is perfect, but based on what we've been told, I'm just saying, like what is Nia supposed to do?

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Not like he is not communicating with her, he's lying to her. He's hiding this app in his folders and she is noticing distance and going above and beyond to show this fucking man child that he's loved and she cares about him and that his clothes are laid out and the 4am breakfast is here doing everything. What is she supposed to do?

[A]

And I'm very curious to learn what's going to happen when she finds out because we keep saying about Sam, it's like he just wants it all. He wants all of the things that she's doing for him and he wants to fuck around and he wants to fuck around and you know what I mean? It's just wild that he's here in this documentary. Like you need. Because he has absolutely no self awareness. He thinks that by doing the documentary it's his apology to her, but it's, it's not.

[B]

I mean, he's not even being honest with us now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the polar opposite of that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So remember Rob from the beginning who was like, yeah, I don't even talk to my wife. I hate my wife. I hate my.

[A]

The guy in San Diego.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Who told us a story about like he met this woman on the park bench and they hooked up on Ashley Madison. Rob is married to awesome Stephanie who's like, I just, I can't help but cheat. Like she's not a monogamous.

[A]

Right. And we just learned that now because what I'm screaming the whole time is like, what about an open marriage? Everybody, somebody should try an open marriage.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so we learn that Rob is married to Stephanie. It was a jaw dropping moment for me. Jaw dropping that they're in an open marriage. And there's all kinds of rules. We have two rules.

[B]

Number one, she always knows where I'm at, who I'm with. So I'm not hiding anything. I basically get permission before I go. And the second rule is I wear a condom, which is I think pretty.

[A]

Obvious if I'm not in the mood, then it's a no. And he's never thrown a fit or anything. He's just like, okay, it's a no. You know, and he tells him, my wife said no, but also Stephanie can veto.

[B]

And then it's no questions Asked yes.

[A]

My wife said, no. Sorry, I can't do it.

[B]

She rarely does, but sometimes she does. And everyone is cool with that. They seem to have, honestly, like, a great, open, fulfilling relationship. They seem to be great parents. They're great spouses to each other. There's no lying.

[A]

And he says, like, I don't want to replace Stephanie. I just want to, like, play with other women. Like, why would I try to replace her? Like, I'd be a fool. There's no other way. Women like her.

[B]

And Stephanie's a dominatrix. So, like, they're both like. And admittedly this is very rare, but I'm thrilled they found each other.

[A]

But the thing is, is it that rare? Like, my thing is, I'm sure that an open marriage is not for everybody. But if you're at a point in your marriage where I'm either gonna cheat on you and lie, but I don't not love you and I don't want to leave you, maybe at least have the conversation should be.

[B]

I'm saying no.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

On this level of like the dominatrix and the guy who's sleeping with other women in their bed that she just met and can say no. Like, the way they're doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe. Is it the healthiest way? Sure. But is it the way that's happening the most? I would just like to.

[A]

It's like a no brainer. Like, at least try this. And I guess it's easier for me to think of like my gay friends who are in relationships and don't have kids. Like, it's much less complicated, you know? But it's just like, I was so glad that we got to an open marriage at the end of this episode because I was like somebody screaming like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Obvious.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So back to Sam, who is basically like, I needed attention and validation from women.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I couldn't get it at home for my wife who's doting on me and. And being like, basically like. Or like serving him hand.

[A]

And he got it from her and he was full up on that. The attention from her wasn't going to do it for him.

[B]

It's never going to.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's never going to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he's like, yeah, I just wanted attention more than the attention I was getting at home. And it's like, Sam, just have to be honest with yourself. And you just want to fudge around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you just want.

[A]

And I do think the attention is. Yeah. Is a major 100%.

[B]

But I feel like, he's making it into something that it's not, which is making this 100% worse.

[A]

Well, but we. So we get this story where Sam and Nia are driving in the car. Like that Frozen movie came out. The soundtrack came out.

[B]

Have you, have you heard of it?

[A]

That Frozen movie. Oh, my God.

[B]

That was just the biggest thing for that when Frozen came out. Yeah, that was the biggest thing for, I mean, like, two years.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It was major.

[A]

Yep, I agree. And Daisy was not really a let it go kid. She was a love as an open door kid.

[B]

Okay, so here we go.

[A]

Here we go. So it's Kristen Bell and Santino5 Montana. Like, they're so good. The song is really so freaking cute. And Daisy and Steve would sing it in the car all the time. It's amazing. So Sam has this idea because he, like, wants to go viral. He pays attention to YouTube. He wants to be famous in any way he possibly can.

[B]

People were getting famous and viral by singing and making Frozen videos.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So Sam and Nia try it and it works.

[A]

So they decide they're going to sing Love is an Open Door and if you don't know it, pause and go listen to the song because it's so goddamn cute.

[B]

Did you happen to see what they named the video?

[A]

No.

[B]

Again, they're doing this to get Vi.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is a very. Like, we've Talked about this YouTube thing before where it's like the mom life or the trap life or like the religious family that's like vlogging about their kids and sort of like monetizing their kids in their family life. Like, that's what they want to be.

[A]

The fact that the daughter was sitting in the backseat while they're filming, that's just being quiet. I was like, oh, my God. But again, like, we have different children.

[B]

But it's also like all about them, you know what I'm saying? So it's very much like monetizing your kids for clout and content, which you know, which we all know how I feel about it. But the video they posted, the title of the video is Good Looking Parents Think Disney's Frozen Love is an open door Salmon. Nia.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, they.

[B]

I took the screenshot of.

[A]

They are good looking parents.

[B]

But do you see what I'm saying? Like, what they're. It's not just like family does this.

[A]

Sexualizing, this like, thing they're doing with their kids.

[B]

Good looking family, good looking couple, good looking parents. Which is really leaning into this, like the heteronormative white, like, monetizing your family for content thing.

[A]

Well, but the thing is, it happens. It goes super viral. They get millions and millions and millions of views, and Sam instantly loses his interest in Ashley Madison.

[B]

All he can talk about is the attention he got from women because of this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And again, though, the attention is about, isn't he such a great father?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Isn't he such a great husband? It's why he's crying at the wedding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a very specific part of his ego that's being stroked by these women. He knows he's a bad father and a bad husband.

[A]

He's broken. He needs to feel loved and adored and paid attention to for a very specific way and sexy. He needs to feel attractive.

[B]

And he says it's like winning the lottery.

[A]

I just thought that it was so interesting that, like, he had no need for sex anymore because this was now the thing that was, like, filling that bucket.

[B]

They just become a family vlog.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this, like, viral video was the catalyst for this very, very, very. Cannot stress enough.

[A]

Very.

[B]

We'll get into it next week. Very successful YouTube channel that they have.

[A]

Oh, my God. Really? I didn't know that.

[B]

So Sam is getting the attention he craves. My life is exciting again. He says, fuck you, Sam.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And because of this, just like you said, he deletes Ashley Madison because this attention from women online.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he is, like, pretending to be this perfect husband and father that his own wife thinks he is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's what he wants the attention for. So I do. I guess I'm backtracking a little. Kind of take it back where he's like, I didn't need the slutty, sexy, hot photos.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He wanted to be like, you're so good at this. You're such a good provider.

[A]

It doesn't matter what the compliments are. He just needs the attention. He just needs the compliments.

[B]

And I think it's specifically about, like, you're such a family man. Like, that's what he wants going viral with his family.

[A]

Well, because he was told all of his life as a young Christian, like, that's what the ideal is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if people see you as that, then you did it.

[B]

And so Sam might have deleted Ashley Madison, but as we know, nothing's really deleted.

[A]

Did Ashley Madison delete him? I don't.

[B]

I don't think so. And this episode ends with the fact that Ashley Madison has been hacked.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The next episode is appropriately titled we got hacked, exclamation Point. So, I mean, really, really think about the repercussions of a hack of Ashley Madison.

[A]

I'm dying to find out so much.

[B]

Than just like, you got caught by your person. It's. Think about how big that could be. Yes, it is a life ruiner.

[A]

It's funny because. Because it is so straight. I didn't pay that much attention to it. You know what I mean?

[B]

Beyond straight.

[A]

It's so straight. And like, there's no. But that's what I'm saying. Like, you're going to go to 35 countries. Like, you guys could have done Grindr first. Do you know how much money Grindr makes?

[B]

When did Grindr start? Do we know?

[A]

Maybe 10 years ago or whatever. But like, maybe less than that. But it is everywhere now. It's all over the world. Yeah, it's just very, very, very.

[B]

I don't know why you. But also, like, these are the guys that are going to pay for it. Yeah, Pay for the credits, you know, Like, I think there's. I think there's a certain type.

[A]

I guess that's true.

[B]

And they're like mostly the straighties. It's too easy for the gays, you know.

[A]

Oh, fab. Thanks for checking out episode one of the Ashley Madison thing.

[B]

And it just gets crazier.

[A]

What are their names? Sam and what?

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Sam the dude is the worst.

[B]

Worse. And it just gets worse. And like, she's. That they end up being like, racist and homophobic too. There's like a lot to unpack.

[A]

This, this guy Sam is like such a bad dude. And like, I, I just, I, I really every. I was like at one point standing up. I.

[B]

It was really bad.

[A]

Put my mic in the standing position because I was screaming about that. It was so bad news. So all the other two episodes are available right now in ad free over on the Patreon with like over 400 full ad free bonus episodes of everything else. Yeah, you get it all the second you sign up. You can also do the afterparty tier where we've been doing cases that we haven't gotten to yet.

[B]

On the regular tier, we do like catch ups. We do AMAs. We're just hanging out. It's a party.

[A]

Yeah. There's also the hero belts here where we make specific episodes just for them. We cover old Unsolved mysteries cases. We do. Sometimes we do the Am I the asshole? Thing from Reddit and we just like decide if they're the asshole or not.

[B]

Yeah, but like a creative writing exercise.

[A]

Oh, and it's December. They're getting the annual calendar this month because we send stuff to them in the mail as well.

[B]

Some. Yeah. Depending on your tier.

[A]

Yes. So if you sign up for the hero Bell tier in the month of December, you're going to get the calendar.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

You're getting it.

[B]

You're getting it.

[A]

So it's patreon.com. true crime obsessed. Go check it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We love you.

[B]

I was going to say you can ungurd your loins now, but just keep them.

[A]

Gird, gird.

[B]

Just like, for safety.

[A]

You know what? Life is short. Don't have an affair.

[B]

Life is short. Gird your loins.

[A]

Life is short.

[B]

Life is insane. Gird them up.

[A]

Gird up.

[B]

Love you. Bye.

[A]

Love you. Bye.