Mr. and Mrs. Murder Episode 1 (from the Patreon)

Summary

True Crime Obsessed

Mr. and Mrs. Murder, Episode 1 Recap

Date: December 23, 2025
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Julie Bozziwelli
Topic: Recap and discussion of the Hulu series “Mr. and Mrs. Murder” Episode 1: "Vanished"

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Episode Overview

The hosts kick off coverage of "Mr. and Mrs. Murder," a Hulu true crime docuseries centered on one of the most requested cases in their community. They focus on the disappearance of Mike Williams—initially thought to be a hunting accident—his ensuing search, the suspicious behavior of his wife Denise and friend Brian, and the unraveling of what would become a notorious Florida murder case. As always, the hosts infuse the episode with humor, candor, and heartfelt moments.

“This is a case people were really, really, really wanting us to cover… it’s a badass woman telling her story of how she got the guy and a badass journal that walked us through everything.”
—Patrick Hines (00:13)

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Context

• The case involves two close-knit couples: Mike & Denise Williams, Brian & Kathy Winchester.
• The docuseries is praised for its strong female perspective (Kathy’s narration) and Cheryl (Mike’s mom) journal entries.
• The story unfolds in Tallahassee, Florida—described as “old Florida,” not the typical beach scene, with some commentary on its Confederate iconography and cultural atmosphere (06:14).

2. Mike’s Disappearance – The Timeline

• December 16, 2000 (Saturday before Christmas): Mike leaves early for a hunting trip but doesn’t return as planned (07:03).
  • Denise calls Kathy, worried; neither Brian nor Mike checks in.
  • The annual Christmas celebration is marred by both men’s absences.
• Suspicion arises from the start: Mike goes hunting daily, which hosts find odd (08:17).

3. Suspicious Initial Theories

• The initial and prevailing theory: Mike was killed by an alligator at Lake Seminole.
  • Family and friends question this, as alligator attacks rarely leave no remains.
  • “If an alligator got him, there would have been something left.” —Cheryl (Mike’s mother), (02:37)

4. Day-of Details & Early Red Flags

• Brian, Mike's best friend, claims he wasn’t with Mike that morning and behaves unusually detached.
• “Shows up late and then just comes in and falls asleep.” —Julie on Brian’s lack of concern (14:01)
• The family dynamic is dissected, noting Kathy's patience and Brian's emotional absence.

5. Tallahassee & Gender Roles

• Patrick and Julie discuss the region’s cultural conservatism, religious norms, and the pressure on women to prioritize marriage and motherhood (29:16).
  • Denise and Mike were a “picture-perfect” football player and cheerleader duo.
  • Kathy is painted as a structured and reliable narrator (“Best All Around” in high school).

6. Hunting, the Boat, and the Alligator Theory

• Detailed conversation on hunting culture, duck seasons, and wader safety issues (18:15).
• When Mike’s boat is found, key details make the accident story suspect:
  • The kill switch is still attached, and the boat is undamaged (22:03).
• Alton Renu, wildlife officer, and Mike’s friends agree the story doesn’t add up.

7. Family Journal and the Grieving Mother

• Cheryl’s journal is a pivotal narrative device, highlighting her immediate doubts about an accident:
  • “I could not believe that Mike had had a hunting accident. He knew the lake too well.” —Cheryl’s journal (25:01)
• She notes everyone else is quick to move on, especially Denise, whose behavior reads as “relief, not grief” (35:07).

8. Kathy's Perspective: Patience, Documentation, Betrayal

• Kathy emerges as the episode’s anchor. Her recollections and evidence (photos, receipts) will later become crucial.
• She details Brian and Denise’s increasingly suspicious closeness and her own growing disillusionment.

9. Blythe: The Denial of a Best Friend

• Denise’s best friend Blythe is introduced, characterized by the hosts as excessively performative and defensive of Denise.
  • “She’s here to be a total Denise apologist… she’s planting the seeds here that Denise had nothing to do with what happened.” —Julie (26:07)
• Blythe’s narration is contrasted sharply with Kathy’s authenticity.

10. Red Flags & Life Insurance

• Brian, as a life insurance salesman, sold Mike two policies totaling $1.75 million.
  • Hosts highlight how quickly Brian shifts into ‘helpful’ mode with Denise, raising eyebrows.
  • Legal/insurance complications mean Denise must wait years to claim the money, raising more scrutiny.

11. Found Evidence and Further Suspicion

• After six months, Mike’s waders and jacket are suddenly "found" in an area previously combed multiple times, nearly pristine, with his hunting license inside (59:37).
  • “They say this diver… finds it in 30 seconds… we searched that.” (60:16)
• No marks or damage point away from animal predation.

12. Discovering the Affair

• Kathy uncovers evidence of the affair: receipts for gifts, the “Meridian” necklace (Denise’s party-alias).
• Episode ends with Kathy’s emotional reaction—she’s overwhelmed by betrayal but doesn’t yet know the full scope.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s been 103 people who drowned in Lake Seminole… every single person’s body has been recovered. Except for Mike.”
  —Patrick Hines (25:47)

• “Her name is Blythe Newsom. She’s Denise’s best friend. Now she is here to be a total Denise apologist.”
  —Julie Bozziwelli (26:07)

• “Why would you think I would want this?” (On receiving a photo of Mike as a gift)
  —Brian, as recounted by Kathy (39:09)

• “It was enough to keep me in line.” (On the suggestive birthday weekend photos)
  —Kathy (54:48)

• “They have been searching this lake for six months. They never found any of this... finds it in 30 seconds.”
  —Patrick Hines (60:07)

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Important Timestamps

• Case Introduction / Show Praise: 00:03 – 01:13
• The Disappearance: Timeline & First Reactions: 01:41 – 09:54
• Alligator Theory & Boat Evidence: 15:10 – 23:20
• Cheryl’s Journal, Grief & Isolation: 24:50 – 35:07
• The Two Couples: Roles & Motives: 29:47 – 49:48
• Life Insurance, Betrayal, and Affair: 57:39 – 63:08
• Kathy Finds Evidence, Emotional Climax: 62:29 – 63:54

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Host Tone & Style

• Conversational, humorous, and empathetic—even as they dissect tragedy.
• Pop culture references (UCB improv, Columbo, “stripper names”), digressions about food and personal stories bring levity.
• Strong critical lens: they probe gender roles, systemic failures, and toxic relationship dynamics.

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Final Thoughts & Series Setup

Julie and Patrick end the episode lauding the docuseries’ artistry and the gripping, layered nature of the story, promising further revelations in upcoming episodes. The narrative is now poised to uncover what really happened to Mike, the motivations of those around him, and how patient, persistent documentation could finally crack the case.

“It is very well told. It’s beautifully and artistically made, this documentary.”
—Julie Bozziwelli (65:45)

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For the next episode:
Expect deeper dives into the investigation, the unraveling of Denise and Brian’s relationship, and Kathy and Cheryl’s relentless quests for the truth.

Transcript

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Hi, Julie Bozziwelli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Fam. Exciting day. We're dropping an episode from the Patreon feed and the regular feed. It's the first episode of this incredible series that GP picked. The series is called Mr. And Mrs.

[Narrator/Reader]

Murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's four episodes. It's on Hulu. This is a case people were really, really, really wanting us to cover. And then Hulu came out with the series and we were like, yes.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And the series is phenomenal.

[Patrick Hines]

It's really good.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's like, really just like a badass woman telling her story of how she.

[Patrick Hines]

Got the guy and a badass journal that walked us through everything.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yep, all four episodes are an ad free on Patreon, where you can get like 500 at this point. Full ad free bonus episodes. This is one of those you don't want to miss. Listen to episode one right here. Ad free. Go subscribe if you're not there. If you are subscribed and you haven't listened to this series for some insane reason, listen to that right now.

[Patrick Hines]

Sometimes people get lost because honestly, there is that much content on the Patreon.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Remember when we did 19 episodes of making a Murderer?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We say it all the time. It was pre pandemic. We were different people.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. It's true.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Your hair wasn't even that color.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know what I mean. But it is now, and I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So that's it, fam. Enjoy episode one of Mr. And Mrs. Murder and then go find the rest on Patreon. And we love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, this is a crazy one.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I'll say. Sure is.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

Hi.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Julia Benzavali. Hello.

[Patrick Hines]

Patrick Hines.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God. Can I tell you, I was watching this on my flight to London. I told you this already. Maybe. And you can't get Hulu in London.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Weird. Really?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. You really can't. And I had to watch it on Disney, but it was a weird version of Disney, but I would not not watch it. And so rather than going out and, like, exploring London, I was sitting in my hotel room watching this documentary.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, this is one of the.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Ones that really benefited me from watching the whole thing before starting to talk about episode one.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know, what are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

Mr. And Mrs. Murder on Hulu, episode one vanished.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

We were two perfect little families that are all best friends. But he was crazy.

[Blythe Newsom (Denise's best friend)]

The horror. It's the nightmare.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

What happened was terrifying. Mike had gone hunting at Lake Seminole. That morning, around noon, Denise calls me and Said Mike hasn't come home at all. This doesn't make any sense.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

We just kept searching.

[Patrick Hines]

There was a lot of speculation that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

He got eaten by an alligator.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

All these guys swimming all around these boats. An alligator that done the death roll, where they just spin and spin and spin.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

There was a sense of doom about it.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

Didn't find any bones or anything, but.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

If an alligator got him, there would have been something left.

[Patrick Hines]

All this is just so surreal.

[Narrator/Reader]

Denise declared herself a widow. Six months after he disappeared, she starts.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

An affair with my husband Br. It involved decadent sexual behavior with prostitutes and other sordid acts. Saying, they stabbed me in the back. Doesn't even touch it. They had stabbed me in the soul. Brian asks Denise to marry him. Oh my gosh.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

This is not right.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

He was your closest friend. You loved him like a brother. Yet you marry his wife, move into his home. Who can do that? No one else was at peace. But they were. That meant they knew what happened to him. This is where the good stuff starts. Game on.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We don't need to be wiring up soccer moms.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

But she wanted answers.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

My palms are sweaty. My heart is racing. I did feel a lot of satisfaction that they were imploding. I loved it.

[Patrick Hines]

I did it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I said, right from the jump. This is really pleasant. We learned how alligators kill people.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

Normally when an alligator takes down a deer or a pig or human attacks maybe after dark, they normally don't try to eat it. At that point in time, the alligator will take them to the bottom and drown the person. They store it under a log or in their cave or somewh. They let it decay before they try to eat it. And then they come up and do the death roll.

[Patrick Hines]

They're so creepy and so cool.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They are.

[Patrick Hines]

They're awesome.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was thinking they're kind of like savage dogs of the water.

[Patrick Hines]

They're definitely swamp puppies. Yeah, for sure.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So that's a thing. I didn't just make that up.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, there's some kind. There's always some kind of like puppies.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Swamps are terrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

They are. And they're prehistoric. We've done this before. Like alligators are. I mean, they're like dinosaurs.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They look like dinosaurs. That's true. If you see one, what do you do?

[Patrick Hines]

I was told you're supposed to run in a zigzag.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Running in a zigzag.

[Patrick Hines]

And then I was told I was wrong for that. And then I was told I was right for that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So God knows I got sort of on alligator talk accidentally. And there's like, down in the Florida, there's, like, lots of people who, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Go on bike rides, showed you these.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Was it you that. And, like, people was like, stop. And if you're cool and then they.

[Patrick Hines]

Just start hissing at you.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But also, like, I was watching a guy, like, there was two alligators, and he, like, sort of picked his bike up and just sort of, like, gingerly walked in. But over them.

[Patrick Hines]

You're an idiot.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You shouldn't do. Do that. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You're playing with fire. You're literally playing with alligators.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Okay. Just while we're here. It's like alligators and hippopotamus. I get that they will tear you, like, limb from. But their teeth don't look sharp.

[Patrick Hines]

Alligator teeth.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Do they look sharp? Yeah, because the hippopotamus is. Their teeth are, like, round.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But it's their jaw strength. Oh, that's what we're talking about.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

My God.

[Patrick Hines]

They clamp down.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Big time.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, here we are.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it starts with, we were two perfect little families. We were all best friends. And I just have.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, no. I know. Well, I wanted to say one more thing. Sometimes when documentaries do this, it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I think it works in this one. It's a little artistic in moments. And it opens with this woman digging a ditch that doesn't pay off until, like, the last couple of minutes of the last episode. And the payoff is pretty spectacular.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So we're talking about two couples. Kathy and Brian and Mike and Denise. And Kathy is the only one here today to tell us the story out of these four people, these two couples.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

She tells us about Tallahassee, and she says, it's not like beachy regular Florida. It's like old Florida. And I said, I feel like we quickly zoom past some Confederate statues and don't talk about it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I think we have. Look, I am never going to not punch a Nazi. Yeah, we do have a lot of fish to fry here. I'm not saying we have bigger fish necessarily, but there are a lot of fish frying happening here.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

100%.

[Patrick Hines]

But we should always call out shitty.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, it just like, it really. Look, when she was saying it's like old Florin, I was like, what does that mean?

[Patrick Hines]

You could get any b. Roll this down. You had to use a shot with a Confederate flag. It's like the only thing you had.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Maybe it wasn't a flag. I just thought I saw statues. Maybe I'm wr wrong. Who knows?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure there are statues. It went very there's been a whole lot of conversation about the statues.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So. December 16, 2000, the Saturday before Christmas. This is literally the nightmare before Christmas.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Kathy celebrates her Christmas with her family the Saturday before Christmas every year.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And, like, with or without her husband, like, we. We're getting the sense right from the beginning that this guy's just kind of a loser. But she says that she would always go to. She'd go south to her granny's farm in Georgia. She's going to South Georgia in Georgia. She says, around noon, Denise call. So now, like we said, it's two couples. Denise and Mike, Brian and Kathy.

[Patrick Hines]

And now Kathy hasn't left for grandma's house yet. She's still at home because she's waiting for her husband. But we'll get to him in a second, because at noon, Denise calls. Where are the husbands? Do you know where my husband is? You know where your husband is. What's going on?

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Brian hunted nearly every day. It would just be morning, and I would be up, and he wouldn't be there, and I would just know he was hunting. She says, well, Mike had gone hunting at Lake Seminole that morning, and they were supposed to be leaving to go to Appalachicola. He told me he'd be back by noon. She was irritated. Denise and Mike had planned to take their anniversary trip at a bed and breakfast. It was kind of a big deal. I said, no, I don't know. I. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So, no, I told Denise, I don't know where they are. Brian's been gone all day.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I was, like, struck by this, because I'm like, every single day he's.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Hunting, I. I mean, it feels like football season to me, where it's like, once that season hits, you kind of never see the husb.

[Patrick Hines]

So I was like, well, if it's every day, it can't just be for population and food and, like, is it just to go out and kill something? I didn't know. I texted Bob Ross.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, and what did he say?

[Patrick Hines]

He was like, I'm not a duck hunter. I was like, they said, he's a duck hunter. And, like, they're. They're saying, like, his friends and family, like, literally every day. Like, what's the deal? He said, I'm not a duck hunter. But I can definitely see that any kind of hunting season is something that diehards look forward to every year. We'll usually spend as much time as possible doing it because the seasons are.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Short, and Bob Ruff is A hunter?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he's a hunter, but he doesn't hunt ducks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I told Bob once that I would go on a hunt with him. I wouldn't kill anything, but I would, like, go with him into the woods and see what it's all about.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, really? I get scared.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I would be. I mean, I would be cold and uncomfortable and probably not a lot of fun.

[Patrick Hines]

I would be saying, like, do we have to so. But he's for your life. I know, but he says he goes with ducks. There's also a limit, like, a daily limit to how much you can take. And people, like, hunt them to eat, so they want to fill their freezers up while they have the chance. And I was like, what is he talking? And I was like, okay. Like, cool. Like, thanks. But I looked up Florida hunting season because I thought it was, like, a season, like, several months. No. So for this year, just for context, because this, like, in case you didn't know, like, me, I was like, what are we every day? It's, like, a long time.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So there are three different seasons, and they're all, like, a couple of days. So this year, in 2025, again, just for the sake of context, September 20th to the 24th. Then the. The next season is November 22nd to the 30th. And then the last season is the big one, December 6th through January 25th. So it's only, like, a few days at a time. And then this last one is, like, a month and a half or so.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But I was really, like, every day, bro. Like, how much fudgeing bloodlust do you have?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

How many ducks are there?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, my God, can I just say.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Duck breast is maybe my favorite food.

[Patrick Hines]

I've never had duck.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I can cook it for you. It's the one thing I know how to make.

[Patrick Hines]

I think I'm okay.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Okay, well, maybe not for you, I'm sure. Yeah, for, like, the royal. I'd be thrilled to cook it for you, but I made it for Steve on our second date. I learned how to cook it because my friend Alexa used to, like, come over to try to teach me how to cook so I could be an adult.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it's the one thing I remember. How to make duck breasts.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it easy to cook?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's so easy because there's, like, a fatty side and a not fatty side, and you start on the fatty side and you let it cook, and then you flip it over, and then you stick it in the oven, and then it's done.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. You get like a nice medium rare. And it's delicious. It's so good.

[Patrick Hines]

What does it taste like?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It tastes kind of like steak, but it's a little bit sweeter. It's the thing at the restaurant that they always. I hate this, but they always serve it with like a thin fig jam or like a. Like an orange essence. Like they. They want to pair it with something sweet. It's not duck exactly, but is that.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that like marmalade? Marmalade on?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I think so.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that right? I guess. Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You're right. I like to serve it with a mashed potato, a garlic mashed potato.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's a wintry kind of.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

For sure. Really like a bourbon, like a. Like a nice red wine.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that makes sense, actually, for. Based on the seasons that I'm looking at here.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, Denise is super annoyed because they're supposed to leave for an anniversary trip. And I'm like, obviously he's going hunting the morning of and leaving her stranded. Like, what's annoy and selfish?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Do you know where they're going for their anniversary trip?

[Patrick Hines]

They're going to Apalachicola.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Can you say it again?

[Patrick Hines]

Apalachicola.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That is so charming that you can just say it.

[Patrick Hines]

I wrote it out phonetically.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

One more time.

[Patrick Hines]

Apalachicola.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Because I was going to really struggle. Apalachiola. No, Appalachian. Appalachicola.

[Patrick Hines]

I wrote it out. Maybe I wrote it out.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, no, no, you did it right. Apalachicola.

[Patrick Hines]

I did. Just a little, like, I'm not going to gatekeep it. Apa. And then I did dash. And then la, C, H, A. This is just so that I can pronounce it. I know I'm spelling it wrong. And then cola, C, O, L, A. So I just, like, separate it so I can, like, know how to say it properly.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

This is the kind of town that should have its own soft drink. Am I wrong? They should have their own.

[Patrick Hines]

The Appalachicola. And it's frozen. It's like a smoothie.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Or not. It's like an. Like an icy.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's like an icy. And it's like, maybe there's like a little extra. There's a little more vanilla in it that you would have, like, in a Coke or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But I'm sure they have something they're missing.

[Patrick Hines]

A flushy. That's the word I was. Yeah. Looking for.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But yeah, it was their anniversary trip. And like, no. Like, nobody knows where the husbands are.

[Patrick Hines]

So then it's two o'. Clock. Kathy's Husband Brian is at home and she's like, you know what? Fuck this. She's packing up the car by herself. She's taking her son, they're going to the grandmothers without Brian.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And like that is just so shitty.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's so used to it and I can't that really. I was like, she's not, she's like we just got in the car and went like, like we did. And she just kind of knows that like hunting season, he's never going to be around. She thought maybe he'd do the right thing for like the Christmas day that they're celebrating even though it's a Saturday before. Absolutely not.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I have a note here that says the amount Kathy is holding back her rage is just amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think she feels rage. I think she was conditioned to not feel rage in this moment. While she's packing up the car, I just thinking about.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I saw a play last night that had to do with suicide and there was a talk back after and there was a mental health professional there.

[Patrick Hines]

Fantastic. What play?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

The play by Stan Zimmerman called Right Before I go. It was a stage reading. He was a writer on the Golden Girls and it's a. They do it for charity all over the country and it's an amazing play. But they had a mental health professional there just for people. After the talk back and I was thinking about how because Kathy is our main interview for this entire four episodes, she tells this entire story basically single handedly and I hope they took care of her. And that's all I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. So she's in Cairo, Georgia, which is 28 miles north of Tallahassee.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Brian finally shows up between like 4 and 5. He's super late, no apology that we hear about.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

I say to Brian, did you ever hear from Mike today? And he says, well, what are you talking about? And I said, well, Denise had called me and said that Mike hadn't come back from hunting yet. And he says, oh, I don't know, you know, I didn't go with him this morning. We had a great afternoon. Presents are opened and shortly into all that, Brian was asleep on the couch. I just rolled my eyes and was like, of course. Shows up late and then just comes in and falls asleep.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Now the thing about this case, we have pictures from this day.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, we have the picture from this.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We have the picture from this day. They don't show it to us here, but it shows us how exhausted Brian is after this day of not hunting with Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

The way this Would piss me off. So he's late, no communication. He just shows up. He's not calling anybody. He's not contributing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He's asleep because he's tired from hunting all day. Like, absolutely not.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it's.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

The details of this day are going to be so important. Maybe 18 years later.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Yes.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And the fact that she has pictures from this day is. This woman Kathy is incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

She's got a lot of patience.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

She's got a lot of patience and she's got a lot of receipts. And it's like seeing the picture of him that day is pretty remarkable.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, that's the thing about receipts. If you say you have them, gotta have them. So that's the thing about them. You can't just say you have them and then not have them. So they get back to Florida, Brian's father calls them. Brian asleep on the couch, Brian. And the father's like, hey, so Mike is missing. Mike has not come home. Everyone's gonna go to the lake to look for him.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And like, just so you're not confused, like, these families are all very close.

[Patrick Hines]

Very.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So it makes sense that Brian's dad would care about Brian's missing best friend.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure. They're all very, very close.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Brian seemingly doesn't care.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

And I remember Brian saying to me, he'll be cold and he'll be beat up, but he'll be fine.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know what he's saying happened to Mike, who's missing, that he'll be fine. But like, did he get in a fight with someone and was left to near the lake? Is he passed out? Is he drunk? Like, what does he say? Like he's trying in his shitty way to be reassuring, I guess, but like, what is he like?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's a weird thing to say.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's a weird thing to say. But it was so weird that Kathy remembered it all those years later.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So Kathy goes to Denise and Mike's house. Mike is missing. He's married to Denise.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This has become home base for the search.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But also Kathy remembers it as being kind of like an energetic, fun atmosphere. It's like pre holiday, it's. They're expecting me to come back with some like, crazy story like getting lost or something happened. And they're all going to like be relieved that he's okay, but also like laugh and have a good time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yet no one's like 100% panic mode yet. They're all kind of like, well, like, they're kind of like, we're going to be Happy and relieved soon. Right?

[Unnamed Interviewee]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

This is all just a horrible mistake, but it's a super funny one also. And everything's going to be just fine.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Totally put a pin in it because now we're going to meet best friend Scott. He's Mike's best friend and he's telling us, though Jillian would definitely not go duck hunting. She would love duck hunting weather.

[Patrick Hines]

She was overcast, it's wet. He goes, it's really cold. Just terrible weather. And I'm like, so let me ask you though, like, why are you. I know. I don't mean for everyone who likes hunting to get mad at me. I'm really just asking questions like, yeah, so why exactly are you volunteering to do this? Like, if you're just talking about how bad the weather is? And I googled, like, why do people go duck hunting? To eat the ducks. Bob Ruff confirmed. To socialize with people.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Conservation to prevent overpopulating the ecosystem. Like, I get it. Deer, they do that too. And like, good old fashioned bloodsport. And I'm like, with the innocent little dog.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And then I just heard Marisa Tomei, a sweet, innocent, homeless, leaf eaten doe, white little deer.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, my thing is, like, why are you living in Florida if it gets down to 12 degrees, are we moving to Florida for the heat?

[Patrick Hines]

The snowbirds, right? They call them.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I don't know, I don't get it.

[Patrick Hines]

The swampy humidity, 100%.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And look, I was just in Florida for four days, had a time of my life. And I loved the weather. Love your rainstorms, love your thunderstorms.

[Patrick Hines]

But this could also be someone like in LA, it's like 70 degrees and they're like, oh, my God, space heater. It's like, girl, please. So it might be like Florida cold.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's true. We do hear them say, eventually a cold front comes in and it gets down to 12 degrees. I'm like, then why am I in Florida? Is there nowhere we can go for a year? I got to go to Dubai. I got to move to Dubai to be hot all year.

[Patrick Hines]

Certainly do not.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I don't think that I would be very welcome.

[Patrick Hines]

So let's not.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Even consider it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

There's, there's. We, there's got to be a better way.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I'd like to visit. I want to go to Qatar. I want to go to Dubai. I want to go to all those places. Yeah. I'd be a little nervous, but, like, I know gays that have gone and had a great time oh, okay. But I mean, probably not like, I don't know that there's like a gay bar.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, let's move on.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

So Mike, who's missing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

We learn, is not a strong swimmer. And that's a problem.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

He wasn't a real strong swimmer. He would go by himself. He normally would wear his waders, which is extremely dangerous for a duck hunter because if you fall in, the waders fill up with water and you drown. He just wasn't careful enough, in my opinion. But he wanted to be outside shooting ducks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I did a little research on this because this has always been one of my questions about this case. I thought waiters were like those thigh high boots.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Boots?

[Patrick Hines]

No, they're like overalls.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They're overalls, but they're closed at the bottom. So they're like footy pajamas, right?

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, we're told by his friend, like they say it's extremely dangerous for a duck hunter because if you fall into the water.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The waiters will. It's W A D E R s.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Like you're wading in the water.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. They'll fill up with water and could cause you to drown because they're like, made of, like, thick waterproof material.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So I watched a YouTube video about this today, and there was a. I literally googled, do you die if your waiter's filled with water? And this guy was like, showing us how it works. And he was in a pool and he had the waders on. So he gets in and he submerges himself so that the waiters fill up with water. And what he was saying was the way that the waiters are in your body, the water does come in, but it creates air pockets, especially by your feet. And he was saying, what's happening to me is I'm floating, but my feet are going like above my head. And so he's saying, like, it's fine cause I'm only in four feet of water. But if I was in moving water or very deep water, my head would be being pushed under the water.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And then the more the waders filled with water, the heavier they are. And then I was googling, can you get out of waders? And there is a procedure, like there is a known procedure for how to get out of waders. But if you're in very deep water in a moving current, and all of a sudden your feet are over your head.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You're trying to swim and you're trying. So it's very.

[Patrick Hines]

They'll like, weigh you down.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. And and prop your feet up.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So like, I just think that if.

[Patrick Hines]

We know what is it, you just unbuckle them.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, the procedure is kind of like, like you take. But then it's also the ma. Cling to your body that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So they're like waterproof and warm.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, I. I read too, that, like, they're essential for duck hunting, especially if, like, you don't have a boat or a dog or if you're by yourself. If you have to do the one that's like retrieving the duck, then.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But it's like a known way that people die, you know, Got to be better.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

There's.

[Patrick Hines]

We gotta find a different.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I guess you can't put holes in the bottom because you want. You want to stay dry. Go with a buddy, is all I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Or make them easy to just go like, oh, shit, I'm in trouble.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Should be like an injection, an ejection.

[Patrick Hines]

Like that, you know, for sure. Especially if they' to be so dangerous.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

These men going flying all over the.

[Patrick Hines]

Saving lives. So Mike has been missing for one day. It was 72 degrees the night he went missing. And the next morning it's 12 degrees because a cold front had come in. And remember, it's December.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. So if he's out there, it's going to be bad.

[Patrick Hines]

And what's interesting too is he's on Lake Seminole. And so it's 60 miles northwest of Tallahassee. It's actually a bit of a trip to make. It's like an hour drive from where they live. And I'm like, like, so, Brian, you're doing this every day? Like, must be nice.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

What, do you not work so you don't have to work? You don't have to be a parent. You could just spend two hours every day.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

To go kill some innocent little ducks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You are working, and then on your time off, this is what you're doing instead of being with your family.

[Patrick Hines]

But she made it pretty clear it's every day. She didn't even ask. She's like, I'd wake up and he wouldn't be home. And I knew exactly where he was. And I'm like, so you just don't have to work or parent.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know. And cool. I guess there's a part of Kathy that was, like, grateful that he was gone.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, well, that's the other thing. It's like, well, now that I can be honest about it, I'm happy to not have him around, but also, like, be a partner of Course, you have a child.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Alton Renu is here. Ranu?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

R A N E W. He's the. He's from the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

He's the first to arrive in the scene.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

He says Brian Winchester and his dad found the boat. It was in the weeds over near the western side of the shore there. The motor wasn't running. Checked the gas. It was so full, it was about to run over.

[Unnamed Interviewee]

We were thinking Mike had fallen in. But why was the kill switch still attached? And, you know, usually if it's. It's a violent enough hit to knock you out, you would think that the boat would be damaged in some way.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It seems like whenever the accident happened, that made Mike not be here anymore, it happened early in the hunting trip.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, maybe the most important thing, the kill switch was still attached.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And so I don't really understand what that means.

[Patrick Hines]

So a boat kill switch, as per the Internet, is a safety device designed to stop a boat's engine if the operator is thrown from the helm. So it typically consists of a cord or lanyard attached to the operator. So, like, to a life jacket or to your wrist or to your clothing and the boat's engine. So if the operator is ejected, like in a horrible situation, the lanyard pulls the switch immediately, cutting the power to the engine. So if he is not in the boat.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes. Which he is not, then the boat should have stopped.

[Patrick Hines]

Then why would the kill switch still be attached? This is starting to look very familiar. And staged, perhaps.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Especially because the lake is filled, and I mean filled to the brim with alligators.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And best friend Scott tells us this because he gets up in the helicopter, and this is terrifying. He's saying, I'm looking at the entire search party out there on the lake. I can see the alligators that they can't see.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, he said there were 12.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Alligators, like, circling the search party. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, from a nature standpoint.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so scary and awesome. Like. Like, people don't even know they're there. You just, like, you. They're just slowly creeping around. Their eyes are visible, but, like, you really have to look for them. And, like, from, like, nature aside, this is terrifying and not a good sign for poor Mike, who is now missing, and for the people looking for him.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And probably in the water somewhere.

[Patrick Hines]

But just from, like, a nature perspective. It's like they're so creepy and awesome.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No question.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, something about that where it's like, oh, you're in there like they're the captain now. Like they're, like they've always been the captain because it's their home.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. And it makes you wonder why anybody does this. If there's even a 1% chance you're going to fudgeing, get ejected from the boat and be in the alligator's living room, why would you do it?

[Patrick Hines]

I got news for you. Even if you're in the boat, you're in their living room.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's true.

[Patrick Hines]

That's trespassing. Here's someone that we meet named Cheryl. Cheryl is Mike's mother.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Except we don't really meet her.

[Patrick Hines]

No. We learn about her. So she of course is not doing well. She has a minister over at the house. She's very sad. She's very worried. In the middle of all of this, Cheryl is keeping a journal. We have it. An actor reads from it. It is very, very telling. Now, I don't know if she always kept a journal or she started it when Mike went missing. Either way we have it and I support it 100%.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it must be that it was entered into the public record as part of the trial eventually. Like that must be the only reason why we have it.

[Patrick Hines]

She is keeping a record of everything that's happening pretty much in real time.

[Narrator/Reader]

December 16, 2000. He didn't come home at noon. It was cold. They found his truck, trailer and boat. But Jackson county sheriff's heat seeking helicopter could find no trace of Mike. Denise stayed upstairs after Mike disappeared and would not talk to me. I could not believe that Mike had had a hunting accident. He knew the lake too well.

[Patrick Hines]

She's writing this down in her own words. She does not believe it was a hunting accident because she says, quote, Mike knew the lake too well.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, so. Oh, and Alton with the, with the Florida Search and Rescue tells us that over the years 103 people have drowned in Lake Seminole. They found all of them.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, they've gone missing at the lake. They. Every single person's body has been recovered. Except for Mike.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Except for Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder why that is. That is curious to me. I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Are you ready for this? Bitch?

[Patrick Hines]

Can I. What? Where does she think she is? What does she think we're talking about? Why does it feel like she's auditioning for something?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Her name is Blythe Newsom. She's Denise's best friend. Now she is here to be a total Denise apologist. We're going to get into her in a second, but I'M trying to imagine. Is there a world in which your best friend Ashley does something?

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Say it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know, but let's just say she does something horrible, okay? And, like, most of us believe that she did it, but could you be convinced to be an Ashley apologist?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean. No, I know what you're trying to. You're trying to Gotcha. Me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, no, no, no. I'm. I'm trying to put my mind. Because we're gonna, like, fam. This is a very convoluted mess, and everyone's got blood on their hands, including Denise. And, like, Blythe is here to just let us know that, like, she's planting the seeds here, that Denise had nothing to do with what happened.

[Patrick Hines]

But to me, it's how she's doing it. Yeah, she's so. Again, it feels like she's auditioning for something. She's like.

[Blythe Newsom (Denise's best friend)]

I first met Denise when we were toddlers growing up. We would be lying down on the trampoline, looking up at the stars, just talking about life and the silly things and our futures, and we were going to be great wives, great moms. Mike had to be out there. This is Denise and Mike.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

This is.

[Blythe Newsom (Denise's best friend)]

This is the two of them.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

This is the two of them.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, I'm sorry, am I interrupting your problem performance?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So disingenuous. It's so over the top. I'm like, girl, what?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, part of me wonders if she's not trying to make us understand why she's falling for Denise's bullshit, but, like, still. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what I don't get. I mean. Well, I don't want to say too much right now, but she's very. She is very jarring to me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, and she also feel. Because you have Kathy, who's so genuine, heart on her sleeve, she's our main narrator. And it's like. Like we almost get as much of Blythe in this episode as we get of Kathy.

[Patrick Hines]

And Mike's other friends are here, and everyone's being very honest about their vulnerable. Like, good, bad, or indifferent, they're just being real. And then we meet Blythe, who's, like, taking appropriate pauses. I'm like, what are you, the fucking teacher from look into My eyes?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, did you rehearse this in the mirror?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I also love how you say her name, which is probably.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it Blythe or Blythe?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I'm saying. I think you can say it's like, Blythe Danner or Blythe I think it's exactly the same.

[Patrick Hines]

She's in a great Columbo episode.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Blythe Danner. Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, famously with Cassavides.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God. Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it's really good. It's Etude in black. Oh, I love that, how you say that word.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

How is Blythe Danner not on the Gilded Age? Like, she is so perfect for it.

[Patrick Hines]

How is she not like, I think she's like, I've done enough.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, she's just in retirement. All right, I hear that.

[Patrick Hines]

Because. And then everything she does, they're going to be like, did you see what Goop has?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That poor thing.

[Patrick Hines]

She doesn't want to talk about Goop anymore.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

She thought she made it so big. And then her kid, they're like, oh, like, whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Vagina cream. That makes no sense. That's probably making people sick or something.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, it's going back to the good old high school days. And she's just saying that, like, I mean, this is so lame. She's talking about how Mike and Denise completed each other. He was a football player. She was the cheerleader. It was perfect.

[Patrick Hines]

Everything was perfect. Denise was popular. Everyone wanted to date her. She's best dressed in the yearbook. She came from a very religious family, but to be fair, everyone there was super religious.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

This whole thing is, like, very heteronormative. Like, women are supposed to be amazing wives and mothers, and if you're not a mother, you're useless. And gender roles are very strictly defined. Lots of rules.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

All these women keep saying that they, like, they would dream about growing up to be, like, a wife and mother. Now, let me tell you, Daisy dreams about growing up to be a mother. That is no question.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, if it's her idea, great.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

She's one of those kids. We certainly didn't put that idea.

[Patrick Hines]

She changes her mind. Great.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Totally. And so what? My. My point is just I'm not making fun of them for having that be an aspiration. I get it. But it seems like that was, like, a big part of the culture.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, how I met. Changing her mind 100%. It's all up to her.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Lots of rules. No drinking, no drugs, no heavy metal, no sex before marriage, no fun.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know what? I wasn't down with the no drinking, but you got me at the no heavy metal. I was like, am I a Christian?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Are you sure?

[Patrick Hines]

No. Sometimes some heavy metal could be sort of, like, operatic and very, like, orchestral.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

There was Nine Inch Nails is doing the music for some new movie, and I only Know that because Daisy and.

[Patrick Hines]

I went to the movies and I saw the Atticus. Like, he's done. He did the music for the Social Network. He's done a lot. He works with David Fincher. He's done a lot of music.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's that new Jesse Eisenberg movie that's directed by Fincher and the music sounds.

[Patrick Hines]

What? Directed by who? Looks with. With Trent. I'm sorry, what?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, it's a. It looks like a weird movie. It's about tarot cards. Actually. You would love it.

[Patrick Hines]

You're with me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I swear to God, it's like a tarot card movie.

[Patrick Hines]

A day a trend wrestler, Atticus Ross, David Fincher, Eisenberg, Tarot.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I can't believe I know something before you. Yeah, but I still. The one piece of Christianity that I really love is the no heavy metal. I'm into it.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that's great. These two couples knew each other since they were kids. Like they grew up together. Kathy met. Met Mike, who is missing in fifth grade. Mike, by all accounts is like a super nice guy. Very hard worker, got along with everyone. He's voted best personality in the yearbook.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, and it's like, I also. I just took a little umbrage when we learned about Mike. Coming from a blue collar family, they say the dad was a Greyhound bus driver and the mom stayed at home and had a home daycare. And I went, excuse me. You mean she was a small fucking business owner doing the hardest job in the world.

[Patrick Hines]

She's surrounded by kids like every woman should be.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God. Can I just tell you? I was. UCB asked me to come be like a guest storyteller where like, they. I tell the story and then they. Yes, at ask. Yes. I just did it this weekend. And I did the. The daycare story.

[Patrick Hines]

What's the word?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I can't remember, but I'll think of it watching these like master improvisers act out my daycare story.

[Patrick Hines]

That's so great.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It was. I did the daycare story. I did that I had to pee on a. On a small plane with no bathroom story. Okay. I did my downstairs neighbors are loud story and I did the Bea Arthur story.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it was incredible. It just like this just reminded me of how I closed that daycare in five days. Because if I spent a year building it. Yeah, close it in five days because it's the hardest job. And you're like, she was. She stayed at home. Oh, and she had a daycare.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, she.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Not on my watch.

[Patrick Hines]

She should know how to do this. She is a woman. She should be surrounded by a brood of children.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But so we learned, like, no one had a problem with Mike, right?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the quote is from Brian's own sister.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Mike was loved by everybody. There really wasn't anybody who had a problem with Mike. There were plenty of people who had.

[Patrick Hines]

A problem with Brian.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Teachers would call my parents at night.

[Blythe Newsom (Denise's best friend)]

Crying, why won't Brian do his homework?

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Mom's like, why would he do homework.

[Patrick Hines]

When he knows it all and he's.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

About to get 100% on the test?

[Patrick Hines]

I can kind of get behind that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Me too. As long as he wasn't a dick about it. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

He feels like he was kind of a dick about it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know, that he was like the worst kid. I don't think the teachers were crying over him not doing his homework, Jennifer. Like, I think that they were crying because he was probably just made their lives miserable also.

[Patrick Hines]

Who cares? Kathy was voted best all around in the yearbook. Best all around. My God. Good for you, Kathy. I guess.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Best all around.

[Patrick Hines]

Best all around.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was voted most likely to be on Broadway someday. Guess what, girl? We did it.

[Patrick Hines]

That fucking happened.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We fucking did it. You and me.

[Patrick Hines]

I remember seeing that. I was like, oh, my God. I know it to me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know. Most likely to be on Broadway. And I fucking did it with you.

[Patrick Hines]

We didn't get any, like, voted best anything in my high school.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's probably a better way to go.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, best all around. I can see that being like.

[Unnamed Interviewee]

Like a.

[Patrick Hines]

Would that hurt someone's feelings if they didn't get that? Do you have to campaign for it?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, but everyone just talks about you.

[Patrick Hines]

Behind your back and decides on your behalf.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You vote.

[Patrick Hines]

It's their high school isn't hard enough.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly. Adrian Bogle got best looking. I was like, nada. Have you all seen Nick? Stanley.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, you voted for someone else.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Stanley, the best looking guy.

[Patrick Hines]

What's the process? You vote on it?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, it was all during senior week. It's like a. Like you get like a 25 things.

[Patrick Hines]

And then the secret ballot.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's the secret ballot, but it's like all the most popular kids win all the popular ones. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Do you have to campaign, really?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No. Nobody campaigns. Or at least they didn't when I was. Do you.

[Patrick Hines]

What who's going to be like, up for what?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

All right in.

[Patrick Hines]

Who decides?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They count them. So like, it's like. It's like you write, it's all right, and then they count them. Yeah. Adrian Bogle was not the best looking. Alison, back me up.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Kathy was voted best all around.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know what? Kathy's pretty great, if I'm being honest, you know.

[Patrick Hines]

So in 1993, Kathy and Brian are dating. Seven years. He proposed to her as they were watching the duck patterns. To which I say, this guy both loves and hates ducks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I.

[Patrick Hines]

What did they ever do to you?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm going to watch my cousin Minnie tonight.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's one of those things where it's just part of their growth. Like, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

I get it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We do have to eat. I'm with you. I don't want anybody to. I don't want anything to suffer.

[Patrick Hines]

You're going to do it for, like, sustainability and conservation. Like, fine.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. But I haven't heard eating okay or.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I haven't heard about their freezer full of duck meat that they're saving.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Absolutely. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Bob Ruff told me. Yeah, I can understand.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God. You know, Bob Ruff's got, like a free. He's got probably 10 freezers in his.

[Patrick Hines]

Garage of, like, what does he hunt deer?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I think so. Can you. The venison.

[Patrick Hines]

And I know that I've never had that either.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, that's delicious.

[Patrick Hines]

Uncultured.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, you just don't like me.

[Patrick Hines]

I am an. But I am an oaf.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Are you?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm pretty. Like, uncool and uncultured.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

The manager at Rao's tends to disagree.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Jo. So, Christmas 2000. Mike has been missing for nine days. Back to Cheryl's journal. His mother.

[Narrator/Reader]

Today is the first Christmas without Mike. It's been nine days since he disappeared. I've asked God to send him home. Where is he? Something's wrong with Denise. She won't talk to me about Mike at all. This is not grief. It's more like relief.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know. I was trying to say that with you. I wasn't trying to say it for you.

[Patrick Hines]

No, but, like, whoa. I know in writing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Who tells me that Cheryl and Denise were not a love match.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm on Team Cheryl. But, like, you think Cheryl's not grieving? You think Cheryl's not.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you can't. I know everyone agrees in their own way. Denise sucks. So, like, get off.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. You know, Steve's mom is a nurse and she's, like, amazing, but she's also, like, not the most emotional person.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So if Steve was missing, there's no question, like, I'd be at Judy's table and we'd be consoling. Each other, but it wouldn't. We wouldn't be, like, crying in each other's arms.

[Patrick Hines]

It seems very like it's been nine days. It's kind of like. It's weird that there's no connection with Denise and this per. This man.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No question whatsoever.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's feeling like Denise won't talk to me about. About Mike at all.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Nine days.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But we're back to fudgeing Blythe, who's like, I talked to her on the phone every day.

[Patrick Hines]

That was profound.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It was so real. And I was like, blythe.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, she was called up the production 15,000 times. It's going to say best friend in my lower third. Right. Really important that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

That it says best.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You're right.

[Patrick Hines]

Best friend. Denise's best friend. Not Kathy. Me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, you're absolutely right.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, girl, you got.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Trust me.

[Patrick Hines]

No one is fighting over it. Also, Kathy got voted best all around life.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Best all. I wonder what Blythe got.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I don't know either.

[Patrick Hines]

Is there a possibility where you don't get anything?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, lots of kids don't get anything.

[Patrick Hines]

That's mean. Come on.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But I guess if you go to.

[Patrick Hines]

A school with, like, 900, 230 kids.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Am I graduating?

[Patrick Hines]

No. Like, best size, best something, best shirt on Tuesday. I don't know.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

There was one other person that I was afraid was gonna beat me out for Most Likely to be on Broadway. But no, I won. I got it. It was me. I wore it better. I did. I did.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Wow.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Who'd you think it was gonna be?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Shani Fassan? If you've read my book. You know, I called him, like, Jean Luc in the book.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

He was really talented. And he ended up going to nyu.

[Patrick Hines]

And what does he do now?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Well, I don't know, but he lives in New York and he's on Facebook. And every, like, once a month, he and his band will go do, like, a set at this, like, Italian restaurant on the Upper west side.

[Patrick Hines]

What kind of band does he have?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

He's like a. Like an Elvis guy. He does, like, Elvis jazz stuff. He's really, really, really talented.

[Patrick Hines]

Whoa.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. And, like, beyond good looking.

[Narrator/Reader]

Wow.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But I won. Jean Yves won.

[Patrick Hines]

It's in the yearbook. So Kathy's like, okay, it's Christmas Day. It's super pa. She's trying to put on a happy face for, like, the little kids, but there's a lot of tension. No one wants to say, this is looking really bad. Tragedy probably struck right. Like no one wants to say it out loud.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's kind of wild. It's very southern. It feels like because it's been nine days. Also, nobody's saying he ran away to start a new life.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just really bad. No one's saying it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I think I'd be saying it after nine days. I think I'd be like, not. I'm not trying to make a joke, but I think I'd be like, we got to start dealing with the fact that he's dead.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, what was that documentary we covered? Lost women of Highway 20 maybe where the cops said to the husband who was sitting with us. Where it's like, we're kind of all waiting for you to go home.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That was heartbreaking moment. And he was like, they, we can't.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Leave until you leave.

[Patrick Hines]

And he didn't. Oh my God. I'm gonna like get emotional thinking about it. But he didn't realize that. And he was like, oh, and this sort of like horrible realization. I wonder if people are feeling that way about Denise. And because she's just isolating and not engaging. No one can really be honest about it at all because Denise is sort of, sort of just in her room not having a conversation with anybody about anything.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. And they've got a little kid. Like they've got a baby.

[Patrick Hines]

And everyone's trying to put on a happy face for the kids and like who. It's just, it's a mess.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Kathy and I don't know if she decided to do this in the last nine days.

[Narrator/Reader]

Uh huh.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Since Mike went missing or not.

[Patrick Hines]

But Kathy gives her husband Brian a framed photo of his best friend Mike on a hunting trip.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Brian had this picture that he and Mike had taken together when they were in Arkansas on a hunting trip. I framed it and that's what I gave him for Christmas. He opens it and he looks at it and he says, why would you give this to me? And I was like, what do you mean? And he said, why would you think I would want this?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Now here's my question. Is there a no homo vibe going on here her? Or am I just like, am I just inventing that?

[Patrick Hines]

I think you might be inventing it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I don't know, but I think it's a. I think it's more of a guilty conscience.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Same. Totally. But it's also just then a little obvious. It's like, why are you being so mean about. Yeah, well, you're giving him a whole lot of you're Right. These people never think anything through. Pretend to be grieving Brian. Be fake.

[Patrick Hines]

I also didn't think Kathy has the memory of a steel trap. I know his best friend's mother is documenting everything. Everybody says, totally write it all down. Everybody write it all down.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But that's actually really good advice. If you find yourself in a situation, situation like this, grab that journal.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I'm kind of not kidding.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we would not be here if not. I know Kathy did a lot, but for Cheryl's documentation of who said what and when and why and how weird everybody was and at what time they stopped being weird or whatever.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And, like, not to give too much away either, but I also wonder if Denise is, like, isolating because she doesn't want anybody to gauge how she's acting.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, exactly.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. Because she can't fake it.

[Patrick Hines]

And now, granted, at first, if you're gonna kind of step out of this and try to give everyone any. Every benefit of every doubt, you could think, like, too soon, Cath. Like, yeah, we're kind of having a rough go of it here, and I don't know. And like, we don't know if we should be grieving or not. But you also would say, ouch, too soon. Wife of mine who I love. You wouldn't be like, why the fuck would I want this, you dumb bitch? Like, whoa, go kill a duck and feel better, you asshole.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know. Because it. It does. Maybe from that perspective could be seen as like, wait, this feels like we're memorializing him and I'm not ready to do that.

[Narrator/Reader]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I could see sort of a reaction in that way, but, like, he never came back and was like, hi. I overreacted. Wow. I'm in my feelings. But, like, none of that happened.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

The other thing about Brian, too, that, like, if you haven't seen the documentary, every picture he's in, he's scowling. He's never smiling. He always looks unhappy. He's got fucking demons. Yeah, he's really. He looks scary.

[Patrick Hines]

He does. He does not look safe.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Or warm or kind at all. So. 10 days missing. Everyone is searching and searching.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

There's a solid layer of hydrilla about an inch underneath the water, so you couldn't see below the water. We bought 12 foot PVC pipes and capped them at each end.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

We would move around about every six or eight inches and fill.

[Unnamed Interviewee]

Brian was so visibly upset when they would do that type of search that he would go to convenience store at the end of the road and get him something to drink. Because he said, I can't, I can't stand to be here when they find.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Mike hoping to stumble upon a body that like, if this were you and you were in the lake, I would absolutely get the fucking PVC pipe and be looking.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But if I was the one that tapped your body, I would never sleep again.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And not only can he not do that, he can't even be in the vicinity. No, he needs snacks.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

You know the thing about it, I was thinking is I think he's bored. I think he knows the body's not there and he's fudgeing. Bored.

[Patrick Hines]

He might be a little bored. He needs a snack.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I wouldn't be. I'm one of those people where if I get nervous or anxious, I can't eat. It lives in my stomach that my stomach will be in knots. Like that's something that, that I just wouldn't be able to do. But then other times I want a stress eat depending on what the movie is.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, I kind of get it. I need like a, a, a salty snack. So. But either way, he just can't handle it. He's off to the 7:11.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So that afternoon they find a hat in the water. And it's a hunting hat. And it looks just like the hat of in the picture that Kathy gave Brian for Christmas. And so like Brian runs home to get the picture so he can bring it back to the lake to prove that it's Mike's hat and that Mike is probably dead in the the lake.

[Patrick Hines]

Now two days later, Mike is missing for 12 days. Denise's brother in law is sort of. He can't take it anymore. Yeah, it's been almost two weeks. And he, he just starts kind of speaking a whole lot of logic and he's like, I don't understand. And he says this to Kathy, I don't understand why we're still searching the lake. Like if he was there, we would have found him. This doesn't make any sense. And now Brian's like, hey, you know what?

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Brian suggested to me that there were a lot of alligators on the lake. One of them could have have gotten him. And I'm like, no, they wouldn't. I said to him, let's say that Mike was eaten by an alligator. It would not have been a whole person. There would have been something left. And he says, well, anything that was left would have been taken by catfish and turtles.

[Patrick Hines]

And if it wasn't the alligators, the catfish and turtles. And I'm like, He has an answer for everything, this guy.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Weird.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's awesome.

[Patrick Hines]

How are your snacks, Brian?

[Unnamed Interviewee]

Totally.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And that's just like, that's just not a 5 second Google search will show you that that's not how this happens.

[Patrick Hines]

Weird, right?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now Cheryl, Mike's mom, she's trying to get. Because now it's been like two weeks and she's trying to get the newspaper to write about her missing son. Because remember, she's like, he's not in that lake.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He knows the lake too well. Like, she, she didn't buy it from the very beginning.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And she calls the paper and they're like, no, like, everyone is trying to say, like, calm down, you frantic woman.

[Patrick Hines]

Your son is hysterical, emotional woman.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Your son's not missing. We know exactly where he is. His body's in the lake. We just haven't found it yet.

[Patrick Hines]

And what they say to her, we, the newspaper's like, we' writing about your missing son because there is not a criminal investigation. I was like, where's the law that says that you can't write an article about something like, what's going on?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They just, they want to shake her and be like, he's not missing, he's dead. We just have to find him.

[Patrick Hines]

And when Charles, like, okay, like, hold, please, let me go to the cops. And be like, well, can you start a criminal investigation? This is when they're like, hey, calm down. Crazy. Like, right? There's no need for one. He drowned. The alligators ate him. End of story, dummy.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And Cheryl is saying, everybody knows alligators won't eat in the cold. And the cops say back to her, we'll leave that to the alligators.

[Patrick Hines]

Ms. Williams, she's like, they're like, talk to the alligators. And she goes, their comments to me are ludicrous.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And the thing is, like, we'll get more into this in, in future episodes. But like, the cops just decide that Mike's mom is crazy from the beginning. They just decide that she's out of her mind. She's a lunatic. Yeah, but this is why these kind of are the perfect crimes. Like they say, if you're going to kill somebody, take them on a hike. If you're going to kill somebody, take them into a lake. Like, it makes sense to everybody's dumb little brains. There's no other option than he's in the lake.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Even though the evidence, like the rip cord or whatever, you're saying the kill switch is still there. Yeah, the gas tank was full.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, there's been the alligators.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We found 103 missing people in this lake. Every last one that's gone missing, but we just can't find this one. Like, so much evidence.

[Patrick Hines]

The alligators left some. I'm sorry to say it this way, like, pieces of all 103 other people. Except for Mike.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Except for Mike.

[Patrick Hines]

Give me a fucking break, right? So 19. Well, let's go back to 1994. Six years earlier, Kathy and Brian get married. Kathy was a teacher. Brian was working for his dad, selling, how you say, life insurance.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know, I know. That's interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

That very same year, because God knows Denise can't let Kathy have a fucking thing. Mike and Denise get married.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. But Kathy says this kind of fun thing where she says for the couple, the four of them, the whole theme of that year was, here we go. Like, they were ready to be adults. Like, they're breaking away from their parents, are breaking away from their religion a little bit.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

It was very exciting and it was fun. It was fun to go out and go to a bar and see a band and dance. And all of these kind of like, new experiences were things that did not align with the way we had been raised. There was this feeling that this is a little bit wrong. And it made it. It even more exciting.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They're young, they don't have kids, and they're like, they're best friend couples. They're going out to the club, they're dancing. It sounds amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, find yourself and do what you have to do and, like, have those new experiences. Like, I support this.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I feel like all four of them are like, you know what? Actually, the heavy metal is not for us.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it was not so 1997. It's been three years of partying nonstop.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That seems like a lot of partying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But when you, like, come from a very stifled, controlling atmosphere, it's kind of not enough. Because. Because Kathy's like, I'm done. I'm ready to quit partying and have kids. And she's like, that's the goal, right? Like, the goal is to kind of get it all out of our system for a few years. And then Brian and I will, like, have a family the way they see a family.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But, like, Brian's not into it. She wants to have that conversation with Brian. And it turns out that Mike is feeling the same way as Kathy.

[Patrick Hines]

So the spouses are disagreeing with each other, but agreeing with the other spouse.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right. So like.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's like if you and Mike agreed about something and me and Steve agreed.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But we're disagreeing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So Kathy, who's here with us, and Mike, who's missing, agreed they want to stop partying. They want to be parents. And then Denise and Brian were like, no, no, no, no, we want to party all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

But it kind of doesn't matter because by February 25, 1999, Kathy gives birth to their son, Stafford. Yeah, so Brian is such an.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

This story is insane.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

My water broke around 4 o' clock in the morning and I woke Brian up. He said, well, let's just go back to sleep and we'll go to the hospital whenever we wake up. And I'm like, I am awake. My water just broke. If your water breaks, you have to get to the hospital immediately. He went back to sleep. It was like he was holding on to his last few moments of not having the responsibility of being a dad. Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I can't imagine what is going on in this man's brain.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, yeah, it's just like, okay, well. And no one's saying it. Like, no one's really happy. They think they're happy and like they have these. This, like, that's a major disagreement that they've had where it's like, he wants to keep doing one thing, she wants to stop and have a family, and somehow they have the baby and. Can I just say, they didn't have the conversation they should have had.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was just gonna say those conversations are so important to have now. These guys, these couples have been together since high school and they're now year years out of high school and they got married so young.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's a shitty. And like, it's important, but it's. It's as difficult as it is important.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm sure this asshole is not making it easy for Kathy and their community and the families and the pressure and the expectations. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's like looking back.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like with the hindsight of it all these years, Brian, how much.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Longer do you think your community was gonna let you go without having kids?

[Patrick Hines]

That's what I mean.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right. Because it's like Kathy wants the kids so great, Brian doesn't. But I'm like, there's no way your little world that won't let you listen to heavy metal music is going to let you be 25, having been married for four years and not have children.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, hey, in this world that you live in, in this patriarchal society that you're. You're going to be fine, your life isn't really going to change. You get to go hunting whenever you want.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Shut up. You know what? I'm like, be a partner. Be a better guy. But obviously, like, he knows that he's still going to, like, have a pretty. Whatever he wants.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

100.

[Patrick Hines]

So then three months later, Denise, who also didn't want to stop partying, gives birth to her daughter Ansley with Mike, who is missing and did want to stop partying.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Zachary. I love that name.

[Patrick Hines]

So Denise gives birth to Ansley. It's the day before Mother's Day. They're on the news about this. I know.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Suddenly Mike has respect for women.

[Patrick Hines]

Barely.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was like, mike, this is the. Is not sounding how you think it sounds.

[Patrick Hines]

Denise Williams special reason to celebrate Mother's Day this year she became a mom for the first time on Saturday. And her daughter Ansley is her most precious gift. We're just totally overwhelmed. She was due Tuesday and she would.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Have made me wait a whole other.

[Patrick Hines]

Year for Mother's Day. So she came yesterday so I could enjoy this day to day with her.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

It was unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

I have a whole new respect for.

[Alton Renu (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)]

My wife and women in general and what they go through to bring a new child, new life into the world.

[Patrick Hines]

World.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know what you mean, but that.

[Patrick Hines]

We don't say that anymore.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Mike, come out, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Mike, don't do that. So Brian, Kathy's husband, was obviously, like, not ready to be a dad. And Kathy's like, I was completely on my own. Brian was totally checked out. He was doing all of these things without her, including going water water skiing. And I'm like, what?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Do you know how hard water skiing is? Yeah, it's really hard.

[Patrick Hines]

Really hard. Yeah, I know that because I tried it once and it sucked.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

How'd it go? Did you get up?

[Patrick Hines]

I think I went up, but it's really hard.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I couldn't get myself up.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it sucked. I don't think. I wasn't like, on one foot or anything or like the Fonz on one foot. Literally jumping the shark. That's where that comes from. That's the only reason I know that reference.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was like. And then I was. I was wearing a life jacket and I had the skis on and I was starting to do that thing with the waiters where my feet were coming up and I was afraid I was going to drown.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's really hard. You need a lot of strength in a lot of places. Yeah, it's like a stripper. Really, like pole dancing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Just like being a stripper.

[Patrick Hines]

I know they are Athlete. I mean that 100%. You need a lot of core strength and a lot of arm strength and a lot of leg strength. Like, you just need to be a very strong person.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, like an emotionally too. That helps. That help be emotionally strong. If you're a stripper. And like I said, I support.

[Patrick Hines]

Have those idiots eating out of your hands.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Please.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And gentlemen.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, sure. I'm rooting for the ladies. So February 25th, the year 2000. It's 10 months before Mike's disappearance. Look, the marriages aren't good, okay? Marriage. Now Kathy and Denise, the women are confiding in each other. Nobody's happy.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Nobody's happy.

[Patrick Hines]

And now.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And they should honestly just switch partners. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. So in March 2000, nine, months before Mike goes missing. This is so bizarre. So it's nine months before Mike goes missing. It's Denise's birthday. The couples who now, like, it used to be all fun and Games in 1994, and now the bloom is off the rose major.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. Because Denise and Brian want to keep partying. Kathy and Mike are over it. And they say. Say even before this, Mike was pulling away from the foursome because he just wanted to be with their kids.

[Patrick Hines]

So the four of them are supposed to go to Panama City. Mike, Denise's husband. It's Denise's birthday weekend. He doesn't go.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And Kathy's like, what if he doesn't have to go? I don't have to go.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

He says he wants to stay home with the baby. Like, can you hear the fight? Because I can hear the fight 100%. Like, I'm not going partying for your birthday. And, like, ditching our kid. By the way, this is going to be one of the last weekends he ever has with this kid.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Well, he doesn't know that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, I know, but it's just like. It just occurred to me now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Kathy's like, wait a second. If he doesn't have to go, I don't have to go. But she's talked into it anyway. And I'm like, I'm sorry. So you're telling me that just the spouses would go and Denise would go with her, not husband Brian.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

No one thinks it's weird.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No one thinks it's weird.

[Patrick Hines]

They're all happy to not have to deal with each other.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's exactly right.

[Patrick Hines]

This bitch's husband doesn't have to go. Yeah, I'm not fucking going. And you two idiots Go have fun in Panama City. I'm done. And no one thinks it's weird that the two spouses are going to go without their spouses for Denise's romantic birthday weekend.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right. And like, if it's not. Not clear yet, like, it's so obvious that there's something going on between Brian and Denise. Like, anybody who's paying attention can tell. And I fully think because Brian and Denise, they browbeat Kathy into going.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

So they're like, you're coming. No questions asked. You're coming, you're coming. I think that Brian just wanted the three way. I honestly think that that was like what he was angling for.

[Patrick Hines]

So the three of them go to Panama City. Kathy, her husband, Brian, birthday girl Denise, you know, she's being obnoxious about that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

Without her husband, the one who's currently missing.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's is in a. In a word, debaucherous.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

Because Kathy says, I don't have a lot of clear memories of everything that happened in Panama City. I know that there was a lot of alcohol. At one point, Denise looks at me and she says, oh, let me have some of that lipstick. And she leans over and kisses me. Brian took some pictures of me and Denise sitting on the bed partially clothed.

[Patrick Hines]

I think they, like, experiment sexually a little bit.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

All we're told is that there's a kiss and then some like, sexy photos in lingerie. And Kathy goes, it's nothing that would compare to today's standards, but this stopped me in my track. She goes, but it was enough to keep me in line. And I went, oh, yes, keep me.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

In line and keep me guilty. She's says. And it's like, like, yeah, like it's all a setup, I think. So Brian would have shit on her, but would also. I think Brian wanted the three way.

[Patrick Hines]

But so did Denise.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Is what I'm gathering. Right. Because Kathy says, this is the beginning of the emotional blackmail. Because Denise is now telling Kathy not to leave Brian even though everyone is miserable and no one wants to be married to their respective spouse. Yes, God hates divorce. No, she doesn't.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I promise she's fine with it. And like, because it was Mike who was saying to Kathy, you're so unhappy. Take Stafford and get out of there. And then Denise calls from the other line, is like, no, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

God hates divorce.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And. And Stafford deserves two parents. And why would you want to be a single mother? And Denise and Brian are treating Kathy so terribly. And you know, Brian is saying to Kathy, like, why would you leave Me, who would have you. You're going to be a single woman raising somebody else's kid on your own.

[Patrick Hines]

That's what her only value is.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe she just wants to be happy without you, you asshole. Why do you have to reduce her to some fucking. Like, please.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And Kathy tells the story that, like, they're coming back, and Brian is driving. And Brian is driving a million miles an hour. And I made the note that there is nothing, nothing in the world more terrifying than being in a car that somebody else is driving recklessly.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Like, when I'm in an Uber and I think they're going too fast, I get scared.

[Patrick Hines]

Part of Kathy was like, well, yes, maybe it'll all end.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And she says, and, like, it makes me sad for the kids. But, like, Kathy is just saying, like, I just. Like, I was thinking if he just drives off the road, then it will just be over. Like, that's how beaten down Kathy was after a weekend. After a weekend.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's January 2001. Mike is missing for a month. There is a funeral service without Mike having been found. Everyone is going with the story that he drowned and was eaten by the alligators, and there's. There's nothing left of him.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And, like, Blythe is back to say.

[Blythe Newsom (Denise's best friend)]

To us, as Denise walked down the aisle to marry Mike, her daddy was right beside her. And as she's walking down that same aisle to say goodbye to him, her dad. Dad's arms are around her, holding her up. That grief was so, so great and so real and felt by everybody who knew Mike and Denise.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And I'm like, blake, you've said the same thing, like, five times.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you need to stop.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And nobody cares.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And everyone thinks you're kind of weird.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because you're being kind of weird. Stop overacting. Just be real about it. If you want to defend Denise, like, that's on you, girl. But, like, can you just be real about it? I know, but Brian, Kathy's husband, sold Mike, who's missing, two life insurance policies for a total of $1.75 million.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Like, oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh. However, in Florida, it takes several years for a missing person to be declared dead officially, which means that Denise can't get the life insurance policy because on paper, Mike isn't officially dead yet.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And so Brian making this all about him is like, this is going to look really bad to perspective clients. How bad is it going to look that we sold a $1.75 million policy to Mike, but we can't pay it yet. Oh, and also like, Denise needs that money also.

[Patrick Hines]

Brian is now cosplaying as husband of the year, but not to his wife Kathy, to Denise.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

All of this around Mike is starting to just fade into like a new reality. Between the insurance discussions, between running the errands for Denise, Brian was totally available to her in a way that he had never been to me. He was at that point her knight in shining armor.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Like, they're being so obvious about their affair, it's so clear, but they're using.

[Patrick Hines]

It as like, oh, she's grieving. And it's like, well, why don't you tell her mother in law about it? Because no one is talking to this woman who clearly sees what's going on and no one's listening to her.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it's also just like, if you zoom out just a little bit, it's like Brian sold Mike this $1.75 million life insurance policy. Policy. Brian, who sold the policy to the now missing guy, is now desperately trying to get this money for this woman that is the only person he wants to spend any time with under the.

[Patrick Hines]

Guise of like, she needs it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Kids, she needs it. Which is like, I'm sure that's accurate.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

But like, but this doesn't look suspicious to the cops. This doesn't look suspicious to the newspaper, to the parents.

[Patrick Hines]

They're blaming the alligators.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Throwing the alligators under that bus. I do not appreciate it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So June 2001. Oh, and this is also when Brian's like, who's going to want you now? You're a divorced single mother. No one's going to want to take that off on as if it. Not only is it so mean and cruel, as if that's her only value.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right. Shut up. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So June 2001, Mike has been missing for six months. They find Mike's waiters and hunting jacket.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

One sleeve was turned inside out, you know, like someone was trying to get it off. And I put my hand in the pocket and pulled out a hunting license. Mike Williams. It was just astounding to me me that six months later it's been in the water. And I could read his name plain as day. About 10ft from where we had marked the hydrilla was all turned up. There had been an alligator there that had done what they called the death roll, where they just spin and spin and spin.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They have been searching this lake for six months. They never found any of this.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They say this diver goes into like a, like a deeper part of the lake, finds it in 30 seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like when the prosecutor in the West Memphis three case finds, quote, finds the knife behind Jason Baldwin's house.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

The diver is like, oh, here it is literally 30 minutes into it. And they're like, we searched that.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I mean, exactly. It's like, once again, how is this not so obvious to everybody?

[Patrick Hines]

And also, his jacket and clothes weren't damaged at all, even though the alligators ate his body and there's nothing left of him.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Once again, Kathy is asking about that. Like, wouldn't there be bite marks on the waiters? Wouldn't there be anything?

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, absolutely not, you fucking idiot.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No. It's one thing for Brian to be saying no to that. Why are the authorities paying attention to that?

[Patrick Hines]

You know, easier to just close the case and move on.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I mean, that is just so crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

And Brian more than anything is very relieved because now they can do that death certificate and get Denise the money. She's so desperate.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So March 2001, it's three months after Mike's disappearance. Kathy, this is. I'm just going to say this as plainly as I can. Kathy catches her husband Brian lying to her about where he is.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it turns out he was with Denise. They were secretly celebrating her birthday at the lake where her husband went missing. And no one is allowed to talk about it or know about it, including her BFF Kathy.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Right. And it's like, just to be really clear, Brian lied to Kathy about.

[Patrick Hines]

In a lie, like red handed.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And Denise is Kathy's best friend.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Also lie of omission. Like, you know, I'm going out to the lake for my birthday with your husband in the middle of the day.

[Patrick Hines]

The best lie her deadbeat, idiot husband can come up with is that we were secretly celebrating Denise's birthday at the place where her husband's body was just found. And Kathy's like, first of all, why? Second, even I'm not allowed to know about it. I thought we were all best friends. Like, what are you talking about? So Kathy wants to leave, but she's like, I fudgeing had it. They're up to something. I don't know. But she's out. She can't because as we, you know, she doesn't know what's in her bank account, like, whatever. But she goes to Brian's office because, quote that's where all of our mail went. And I'm like, holy shit, he has it so that she can't even look at her own.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

I was, I'm glad that that stood out to you too, because I was. The mail is being divert and, like, who knows what story she told Brian, like, where she was going that night. But she was going to the office to, like, get her affairs in order to leave this piece of shit.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's there and she's also snooping.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And snooping, of course.

[Cheryl (Mike's mother)]

And I found a folder and started flipping through it, and it was copies of receipts of different things. And I found a receipt for a jewelry store that was at the mall, and it was for a necklace with a name written in gold. And it was the name Meridian. And I knew Meridian was Denise.

[Patrick Hines]

Who is that? Yeah, you know who she is. Denise's party girl alter ego.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That she'd use when they were out getting hammered and doing God knows what. She'd, like, turn into Meridian because that's.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

The street she lives on. That's. We saw the street sign early in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Cause it's like, what's your stripper name? Whatever. The street where you live, whatever. But like, that they're using that name that they all knew about. It's just like the level of betrayal. It's just like, so layered. But Kathy loses it. Like, of course she does. So, like. Like, imagine your head is spinning. It's like, Denise is my best friend. Denise's husband is missing. And now Denise and my husband and now Meridian, and, like, now he's cosplaying as husband of the year, but with her. And now this thing. And like, I want to leave and now I'm snooping and like, I. Can you imagine the, like, your heart beating out of your chest and the.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Way you described it is perfect because that's how the episode end is with all these different shots of Kathy, like, yelling and crying, like, screaming. Like, it's. It's like, very well done.

[Patrick Hines]

It all comes crashing down. And she's like, she knows something, but she doesn't know anything. And yeah, hell is going on.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Before we end, can I just tell you her stripper name being, like, her party name being Meridian reminded me of my. I wish you had ever met this guy. He's not in my life anymore, but his name was Mike and he was this little guy. It was like five foot three, flaming red hair. Hair, like, skinny gay guy. And he had this, like, big, like, advertising job. And just like. Like a very cool, responsible guy who didn't drink that much. But as he started to drink more and more, when he would go out, he would have a bar name, and his name was Cameron. C A M R Y N. And C A, M, R, Y, N. Cameron. I'm Cameron. And he would, like, get drunk and.

[Patrick Hines]

Fall off, but everyone would be like, hi, Cameron, nice to meet you. And he's like, it's not really Cameron.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

And it just like this, like, sweet, young, responsible guy going out and having like three Midori sours and getting so drunk and telling people his name was Cameron and, like, falling off barstools. And he was like 4ft tall and it's like red hair. It was like, just.

[Patrick Hines]

Did he ever do anything really scandalous as Cameron?

[Julie Bozziwelli]

No, but, like, it's one of those things.

[Patrick Hines]

But it felt good.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It felt like it could have evolved.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he'll be like, home in the cab, like, fail. They fell for it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

They think I'm Cameron.

[Patrick Hines]

They think I'm Cameron. I'm not Cameron, you suckers.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Son of a. Oh, girl. We did it. We did episode one of Mystery Mrs.

[Patrick Hines]

Murder.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Murder.

[Patrick Hines]

My name, unfortunately, would be 169th Street.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So my childhood name.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, my God, this is so good. It's such a good series.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's a crazy story.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Yeah. Stay tuned.

[Patrick Hines]

Stay tuned.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

That's it, fam. We love you. Take care of yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

Take care of yourself. Leave the alligators out of it.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Leave them out of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Just saying.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

All right, bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Oh, fam. Thank you for checking out episode one of Mr. And Mrs.

[Scott (Mike's best friend)]

Murder.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

All four episodes are available right now in Adrian the Patreon. Tell them how good this series is.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a really good series. If you want to watch it for yourself. It is on Hulu. And I think it finally, after all these years, gets the story right.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Obviously, this is one of those stories that, you know, has been in the true crime lexicon forever. There's a real resolution now in a way that there hadn't been in the past. It is very well told. It. It's beautifully and artistically made, this documentary.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very. Yeah, it's aesthetically very. It doesn't feel cheesy. You know, it's. It's good.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

It's great. So just click the link in the show notes if you want to sign up for patreon. Get over 500 full ad free bonus episodes.

[Patrick Hines]

500.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

We covered the Queen of Versailles as episode two, I believe, of our.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, just when we were like, maybe we'll just do, like, one off. And when we did, like, Madonna's Truth or Dare.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

Madonna's. If you like the Lilith Fair doc, go listen to Baby GP and PH cover Madonna. Honest Truth or Dare. I think I was probably even gayer in that one. Anyway, we love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. Thanks for checking this out.

[Julie Bozziwelli]

All right. Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.