The Lady of the Dunes (from the Patreon)

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed - Episode: "The Lady of the Dunes"

Episode Information

• Title: The Lady of the Dunes (from the Patreon)
• Release Date: August 14, 2025
• Host(s): Julian Benzavale and Patrick Hines
• Description: In this episode, the hosts delve into the infamous Lady of the Dunes case from Provincetown, Massachusetts. Featuring insights from detective Meredith Lober, the hosts explore the complexities of solving this decades-old cold case, the challenges faced by law enforcement, and the broader historical context of Provincetown.

---

1. Introduction to the Lady of the Dunes Case

Julian Benzavale and Patrick Hines kick off the episode with excitement about exploring the Lady of the Dunes case, a legendary cold case in Massachusetts that remained unsolved for over 50 years.

• [00:15] Julian: "Look, all you need to know is we got a lesbian on the case, and she's gonna solve it."

They highlight the significance of Meredith Lober, a dedicated detective whose persistence eventually led to solving the case in her 40s.

• [00:32] Patrick: "It was the oldest cold case in the state for a long time. Until our girl Meredith. Totally."

2. Meredith Lober: The Detective

Meredith Lober is introduced as a trailblazing detective who overcame numerous obstacles to pursue the Lady of the Dunes case. Her dedication is both inspiring and central to the narrative.

• [00:36] Julian: "This is such an inspiring story of a detective who just happens to be a badass woman and a lesbian who gets the job done despite all of the hurdles the people that should be helping her are putting in her way."

3. Discovery of the Body and Initial Investigation

The case dates back to 1974 when the body of a woman was discovered in the dunes of Provincetown. The initial discovery was met with horror due to the state of decomposition and gruesome condition of the remains.

• [07:00] Meredith Lober: "When my parents tell the story, my mother used to say that she heard my sister go, mom, dad."

• [10:00] Meredith: "She was laying down face down on half of a beach towel... the body was nude when she was found."

The investigation revealed multiple theories, including potential mob involvement and attempts to hide the victim's identity.

• [03:21] Patrick: "We find out who the victim is, and then it's like, okay, now who killed her?"

4. Challenges in the Investigation

The investigation faced significant setbacks, including mishandling of evidence. Chief James Meade, deeply affected by the case, struggled with the loss of crucial evidence.

• [06:20] Patrick: "Fuck you. I'm not stopping. I owe it to her."

• [21:44] Jimmy Meade: "He contacted every state in the country, as many dentists as he could. You would think or hope that someone would have looked at that and said, yes, I know who that is. I worked on her."

Despite exhaustive efforts, the lack of DNA evidence and outdated forensic techniques in the 1970s hindered progress.

• [06:27] Patrick: "Which is, like, wild. It's like over 50 years."

5. Provincetown: From "Hell Town" to Today

The hosts provide a historical backdrop of Provincetown, highlighting its transformation from a tumultuous "Hell Town" in the 1970s to the vibrant, predominantly LGBTQ+ community it is today.

• [15:19] Merkedith Lober: "It was known as Hell Town. The bikers would take over one bar across Commercial Street. The fishermen would be another bar."

• [15:42] Patrick: "So, yeah, he tells us about Hell Town."

This context is crucial in understanding the environment in which the Lady of the Dunes case unfolded.

6. Related Serial Killer Cases in the Region

The episode touches upon other serial killer cases in the vicinity, notably Tony Costa and Haddon Clark, drawing parallels and distinctions with the Lady of the Dunes case.

• [18:16] Patrick: "So Tony died by suicide in prison, thank God. And they're saying that this is just not connected."

• [35:02] Patrick: "So Alec Wilkinson is an. He's looking for stories on the cape and the cops tell him about the serial killer."

7. New Leads and DNA Breakthrough

Advancements in DNA technology opened new avenues for solving the case. Dr. Bruce Jackson, a renowned forensic DNA scientist, exhumed the remains to obtain a full DNA profile, leading investigators to Rory Jean Kessinger as a potential suspect.

• [32:02] Patrick: "They exhumed the lady of the Dunes body and gave it to Jackson so he could get a full DNA profile."

• [33:31] Meredith Lober: "This was huge. This could solve the case. But it was not Rory Jean Kessinger."

8. The Confession of Haddon Clark

Haddon Clark, a suspect with a history of violent crimes, confessed to the Lady of the Dunes murder. His confession provided chilling details that matched the crime scene, but questions about his mental state and reliability persisted.

• [34:35] Patrick: "So now we have to talk about Haddon Clark. He's a serial killer. He confesses to the murder of the lady of the Dunes."

• [36:53] Jimmy Meade: "Clark's description of what he did to the lady of the Dunes was consistent with the crime scene."

Despite the confession, Meredith and the team remain cautious, acknowledging the complexities introduced by Clark's multiple personalities and past confessions.

• [37:06] Julian: "Show me on each. How far up? About an inch up."

9. Conclusion and Ongoing Mysteries

The episode concludes with unresolved threads, including the involvement of Daniel's family and continuing speculations about the true perpetrator. The hosts express a mix of frustration and hope, setting the stage for future episodes to delve deeper into the case.

• [40:42] Patrick: "I cannot believe in my lifetime I got to see this be solved. I know. It's really unbelievable. And it's like. It's also shitty, but it's also amazing."

• [41:27] Patrick: "We love her. I can't wait to dive in more. Like, we get so much more Meredith. This at first, like, the introduction, seems like we're going to be with her for the whole episode. This one, we're not, but trust me, we get so much more and it's like, so worth it. She's awesome."

Key Takeaways and Insights

• Dedication Pays Off: Meredith Lober's unwavering commitment showcases the impact that passionate individuals can have on solving cold cases.

• Systemic Challenges: The mishandling of evidence and bureaucratic hurdles highlight persistent issues within law enforcement agencies.

• Advancements in Forensics: The role of DNA technology underscores the importance of evolving forensic methods in modern investigations.

• Community History: Understanding Provincetown's transformation provides essential context for the sociocultural dynamics influencing the case.

• Mental Health and Reliability of Confessions: The complexities surrounding Haddon Clark's mental health raise important questions about the reliability of confessions and the intersection of mental illness with criminal responsibility.

Notable Quotes

• [00:15] Julian: "We got a lesbian on the case, and she's gonna solve it."

• [12:10] Patrick: "So the lady of the Dunes is the oldest. Until recently, the oldest cold case in the state of Massachusetts."

• [21:44] Jimmy Meade: "He contacted every state in the country, as many dentists as he could. You would think or hope that someone would have looked at that and said, yes, I know who that is. I worked on her."

• [31:58] Meredith Lober: "The timing was perfect for her to be the lady in the Dunes because that happened before the lady in the Dunes was found."

• [36:53] Jimmy Meade: "Clark's description of what he did to the lady of the Dunes was consistent with the crime scene."

• [40:20] Julian: "I thought we were going to get like, a deep belly."

---

Conclusion

"The Lady of the Dunes" episode of True Crime Obsessed offers a comprehensive exploration of one of Massachusetts' most haunting unsolved murders. Through engaging discussions, firsthand accounts, and a deep dive into forensic advancements, the hosts provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the case's intricacies and the relentless pursuit of justice by Meredith Lober. The episode sets the foundation for ongoing exploration, promising more revelations and insights in subsequent installments available on their Patreon.

Transcript

[Julian Benzavale]

Hey, fam. Hey, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, girl. Hey, everybody.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, I'm so excited to tell you all about this fam. We are dropping episode one of the lady of the Dunes. Is that the whole name of it?

[Patrick Hines]

The lady of the Dunes?

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I think it's like, search for the Cape Cod Killer or something, but it's lady of the Dunes.

[Julian Benzavale]

Look, all you need to know is we got a lesbian on the case, and she's gonna solve it. And let me tell you, I grew up on Cape Cod. This case is legendary nationwide, but especially in Massachusetts. I've always been fascinated by this case. It took until, like, my 40s for them to solve it.

[Patrick Hines]

It was the oldest cold case in the state for a long time. Until our girl Meredith. Totally.

[Julian Benzavale]

And it's famous. Famous. Famous. Did I tell you I got to meet Meredith?

[Patrick Hines]

I know you told me very briefly.

[Julian Benzavale]

You're meet her in the episode. She came to my show in Provincetown. I only got to meet her for two seconds. She did not want a big deal made. I gave her a quick hug, and then they snuck out right after. But she was amazing. Her wife was amazing. This is such an inspiring story of a detective who just happens to be a badass woman and a lesbian who gets the job done despite all of the hurdles the people that should be helping her are putting in her way.

[Patrick Hines]

You know how it is. Like, the more awesome the woman, the more shitty the man surrounding her. That's like a math equation.

[Julian Benzavale]

Exactly. Exactly how this all goes down. There's one good guy. Whatever. You'll see.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you'll just listen to it.

[Julian Benzavale]

You'll see. You'll see. Also, if you know anything about Provincetown, you get a whole story about Province. I was walking down Commercial street, which is the main street. It's so gay. And, like, there was a time when it was run, it was, like, completely run by, like, like, brutish straight men who just, like, fell out of bars, beating each other up.

[Patrick Hines]

Amazing.

[Julian Benzavale]

That is not the story of Provincetown today.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's not.

[Julian Benzavale]

No. So, fam, all three episodes of this are available right now and ad free on our Patreon. Enjoy episode one, and we'll say it quick goodbye on the way out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Enj.

[Julian Benzavale]

I'm so excited that we're gonna spend the next couple of weeks on the Cape.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, we've been in Massachusetts for months. It feels like it's true. Karen Reed in this.

[Julian Benzavale]

You think Karen Reid's ever gone to Provincetown?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. She's not really she sure will after this.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hi. Julian Benzavale.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Julian Benzavale]

What are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

Starting a new series. Thank you for sticking with.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like, they're just gonna listen to the Karen Reid episodes on repeat for the next two, three months.

[Patrick Hines]

I always like saying everyone, like, thanks for, like, going down this new path with us, this new journey. Lady of the Dunes hunting the Cape Cod Killer. It is on, Peacock.

[Julian Benzavale]

Do you know that I always, always describe you as, like, the kindest, politest person I've ever met? You just have such good manners.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very.

[Julian Benzavale]

You're right. We should be saying thank you, showing our gratitude. And I also agree. Thank you for joining us on this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's like a whole new. It's like a whole month, you know?

[Julian Benzavale]

You okay?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Meredith Lober]

Everybody knows about the lady of.

[Julian Benzavale]

This.

[Warren Tobias]

Was one of the most notorious unresolved homicides.

[Julian Benzavale]

It became kind of like folklore. I just always thought of it as an unbelievable ghost story that probably would never be solved.

[Warren Tobias]

Who knows who's lurking in the dunes?

[Julian Benzavale]

They stumbled upon what clearly was a gruesome crime scene. There were so many facets. It's like a diamond. There's just so many sides to this story. It very quickly goes in these wild directions. Someone clearly wanted to hide her identity. Could she have known too much? Could this have been a mob hit?

[Patrick Hines]

We find out who the victim is, and then it's like, okay, now who killed her?

[Julian Benzavale]

It was a horrible time for my family.

[Warren Tobias]

Are you kidding me? What else can go wrong in this case? I'm not stopping. Anything that could lead to the identification of the lady of the Doomed was met with resentment.

[Meredith Lober]

Why would you throw away the evidence to an unsolved murder? The police chief said, well, I think.

[Julian Benzavale]

I have the serial killer.

[Patrick Hines]

We found out very dark past that was hidden for decades.

[Julian Benzavale]

They went down several paths of people that they were pretty sure he killed. Just a constant charade of lies.

[Meredith Lober]

A Lady in the Dunes case. There are so many twists and turns.

[Warren Tobias]

When you take one of these cases on, you're in for a hell of a ride.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, let's go to P Town, everybody.

[Julian Benzavale]

All right, so we meet Meredith Lober, I think is how you say her name.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, she's awesome. She wanted to make a difference. She goes to school. Cases, the missing, the unidentified, they tend to fall through the cracks. She's saying she's speaking right directly to our hearts.

[Warren Tobias]

The lady at the Dunes case was one of the reasons I wanted to come down here. When I got the case, I went to the grave and I promised her that I'd get her name back and get her back to her family.

[Julian Benzavale]

I am making no claims about anything, but Meredith looks like the kind of gal that would have come to my. One of my mom's backyard barbecues, if you know what I mean.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

And I love her extra for that because she is so dedicated to this case. It's going to cost her her whole career.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Meredith has a dog, and the dog is by her side as she's walking through P Town. But the first day. Because the lady of the Dunes case is one of the reasons Meredith wanted to work in P Town specifically.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's just getting started. This is what she gives us. Two bombshells. One, this case cost Meredith her career. And I'm like, what?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And two, this is the first time she's talking about her role in this case. And I'm like, oh, shit. Meredith, like, has a lot to tell us.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's not the last time we're going to hear that in this episode either.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Benzavale]

There's a lot of people telling a lot, like, spilling a lot of truth. Tea. At this point, you know, I'll tell you a little bit about, like, I grew up with knowing this case. I grew up on Cape Cod. So the lady of the Dunes has been, like, legendary to me, like, for forever. And as a true crime person, like, I cannot believe that we get an answer to this. All of my life, for, like, the last 40 years, or whatever it is the lady of the Dunes case ends with. And we still don't know who did.

[Patrick Hines]

And we have no idea.

[Julian Benzavale]

And now we know.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Meredith was working day and night on this case, and she goes.

[Warren Tobias]

I would work on this case on my days off. Ultimately, I was told, just leave it alone. I knew all along that there could be some serious repercussions, but I just kept going. You're trying to tie one hand behind my back, but basically you. I'm not stopping. I owe it to her.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck you. I'm not stopping. I owe it to her.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So the lady of the Dunes is the oldest. Until recently, the oldest cold case in the state of Massachusetts.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is, like, wild. It's like over 50 years.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. I mean, still in witch trials, were there? You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So the woman.

[Julian Benzavale]

So I don't know why.

[Patrick Hines]

No, we know what happened there. Fucking Puritans.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Ruining everyone's good time.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. So John Proctor is the villain.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, Totally. So a woman was murdered in the dunes of Provincetown in 1974.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

There are, like, so many theories, so many twists and turns. And right before we get, like, the opening credits, someone's like, you can't make this up. It's like, out of a movie.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's like out of a movie. And so we meet Alyssa Metcalf, and we were seeing all of this archival footage of what Provincetown looked like in, like, the 1970s. And I gotta tell you, it doesn't look that much different now. Like, the wild areas of P Town, like, out in the beach, like, where, like, the tourists don't really go, really do look like that. Yeah, it's kind of amaz. But Alyssa says that she grew up there. It was very rural. It was the kind of place where the kids would just play outside all day. It's 1974. And she says the family came to Provincetown every summer because they had friends who rented a Dunes shack. And they would sort of, like, come and, like, spend time with them. And the families would converge there for, like, a week every summer. They'd swim and party.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So it's 1974. It's a gorgeous day. Everyone's swimming all day. Just having, like, a perfect P Town day. And they're all heading back to the dune shack. Not to be confused with a love shack.

[Julian Benzavale]

Presumably the dune shack, baby.

[Patrick Hines]

So the dogs noticed something, and they start barking and going off the trail. So immediately everyone's like, what is going on?

[Meredith Lober]

So my sister followed the dog.

[Julian Benzavale]

Dog turned around here to this clump of scrub pines, and that's when she saw the body.

[Meredith Lober]

When my parents tell the story, my mother used to say that she heard my sister go, mom, dad.

[Julian Benzavale]

And that there was something in the tone of her voice that.

[Meredith Lober]

That really frightened my mother.

[Julian Benzavale]

And she said.

[Meredith Lober]

She grabbed my father's arm and she said, I'm not going, Lenny. You go look.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like, when a dog smells something, like, when it's something serious, you're like, oh, that's not a. Like, let's go have fun. Bark. Like something bad happens.

[Julian Benzavale]

Golden is such a city dog. I don't know that he would even know what to do.

[Patrick Hines]

He's never, like, smelled a dead rat or anything.

[Julian Benzavale]

All I know is we took him to the woods one time. He had the time of his fucking life. I've told you about this. We were with my sister and we let him go off leash. I was very scared to do it, but he was great. And he came home and he slept for three days. Yeah, he is not accustomed to that kind of Life?

[Patrick Hines]

No. Like when we bring Fiona to my parents house, she's like, what is this smell?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, girl, it's a wreck. I know, it's a deer.

[Julian Benzavale]

No, he's a gentleman of the house. It's like, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So the dogs notice something, they start barking, they go off the trail and it's a body.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Alyssa and all these kids see the body.

[Julian Benzavale]

Well, you know who doesn't see the body is Alyssa's mother.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavale]

Thank God for our husbands. I found a cockroach in the shower the other day. For the first time in four years, I woke Steve up at four in the morning and he went and killed it and went back to bed.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. It stayed there.

[Julian Benzavale]

We have a glass door and it was closed so it couldn't get out. I don't know how it got in, but it couldn't get out. But I was like, I will never, ever, ever, ever go back in this bathroom.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know what an exterminator. You know, we had like our exterminator appreciation podcast a couple weeks ago. Exterminators.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But I love them. They are superhero lifesavers. How are they not? I'm not doing it. You're not doing it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Your picture on the side of the van that says, I love exterminators.

[Patrick Hines]

Doing the Lord's work also. Girl, what's with. Why'd you make the cockroaches? Tell me.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like, because at the. In the end of days, there's a whole time when they, they get their day, they get their moment to shine.

[Patrick Hines]

I hate them so much. I hate them so much.

[Julian Benzavale]

Believe you wouldn't find me a bunker. Or like, I, I would find you a bunker.

[Patrick Hines]

To quote Polly Walnuts, I got my own fucking problems. I gotta get my own bunker. But what was I gonna say? Oh, yeah, they. Someone told me once, an exterminator told me that if you see and like, it could be a water bug, which is not a cockroach, but if you see one sort of in the wild and it's walking slowly, it means it's dying.

[Julian Benzavale]

Okay?

[Patrick Hines]

It's like drunk on the exterminator poison. Oh, delicious.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Drink up, little ones die. Roll over on your back and die. But if you see one, bigger it is, the better it is.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, why are we talking about this?

[Patrick Hines]

Because I'm trying to give you.

[Julian Benzavale]

I'm trying to help sleep, okay?

[Patrick Hines]

If it's the bigger it is, the better it is. And if you see them, it's probably hammered and drunk and about to kill over and die anyway.

[Julian Benzavale]

Okay, good.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, so Alyssa and all the kids see this body. It's a woman.

[Julian Benzavale]

She was laying down face down on half of a beach towel.

[Jimmy Meade]

Had dungarees and the cur she used as a pillow.

[Meredith Lober]

Sort of reddish brown, auburn hair, five, six. The body was nude when she was found. They weren't sure how long she had been there. Up to two weeks. It was July, it was hot. They didn't even want to get close to the body. It was that bad.

[Julian Benzavale]

So we see archival video of James Meade. He's the chief of police of private town. We're going to learn this case becomes his whole entire life.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, if I was wrong about that thing with the bugs, don't correct me, just let me have it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Ok?

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know what I mean?

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't need you sliding into my DMs being like. Well, actually, just let me.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not going to hurt anyone. No. Know, like if I just believe that for the rest of my life.

[Julian Benzavale]

I don't. We never. Please. Never DM us about bugs. Don't. Please.

[Patrick Hines]

People do it all the time.

[Julian Benzavale]

They do all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Isn't this gross? And I'm like, huh? In my mouth, crawling up my back. Thank you. Misery loves company. All the. I get it all the time. Look at this bug.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh my God. You know what I miss? I remember back in the day when you used to do the annoyed wife at the barbecue asking like, like, like, like saying hi to her husband from across the yard.

[Patrick Hines]

Look at him. How many ice cubes I asked for? 3. Watch. He'll come over, there'll be like, yeah, hi.

[Julian Benzavale]

Hi. Huh? Hi. I see you.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Yeah, I know, huh? Look at him. I begged him not to wear the shorts. I begged him. But here he is. Uh, hi, honey. Uh huh.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh my God. That's a good tbt. Anyway, we also meet Warren Tobias. He was the interim chief or whatever. He takes over after James Mead retires. But, but he's.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's there with us today.

[Julian Benzavale]

He's a primary storyteller and he's just saying the state of decomposition of the body was bad. It was July, you know, and it was hard to get close to the body.

[Patrick Hines]

It's. That seems like a long time for this area because, like the summer, there are so many people there.

[Julian Benzavale]

Not really. Provincetown is like those areas where the, like the beach is, are pretty desolate. A lot of people don't really go out there. It's pretty isolated.

[Patrick Hines]

We meet Kathy, a reporter, and she just describes that this was very, very violent. Her head was almost decapitated. Her hands were cut off, her skull was crushed.

[Julian Benzavale]

It was very bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we want to identify her body for many reasons, but also people are worried. Like, is there a serial killer? Like, what's going on? Are other people in danger?

[Julian Benzavale]

I mean, I learned so much about. Cape Cod is a very small place. I learned a lot about my little hometown today. It was absolutely wild. Yeah. And we'll get into it a minute. Like, because when they're asking if it was a serial killer, they're like, we just had one five minutes ago. Which we'll tell you about in a minute. Yeah, but like, it's not a far cry to think like. Like, you know, Provincetown is such a tiny, tiny, tiny little town, and people are locking their doors and closing their windows and not talking to their neighbors anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Well, we hear from everyone how, like, P Town is such a cool, weird, fun place. Like, weird as a compliment. They're like, we're not saying it in a bad way. Like, just lots of artists, the gay and the queer community. It was like a big, big summer destination.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. I mean, they say, like, the year round. This is a number that is really staggering. And it really stands out to me because my mom worked in housing on Cape Cod. The year round population of provincetown is about 2500, but during the summer, that would swell to at least 100,000. Now, when you think about that, that means there is housing in Provincetown for 100,000 people. There are only 2,500 people who are there from September to May.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Benzavale]

There are. I can't even tell you the number of unhoused people on Cape Cod that have nowhere to go and nowhere to live. Oh, it is. That's what my mom did. It was an epidemic of homelessness on Cape Cod. And all these empty houses 9 to 10 months out of the year. It is absolutely criminal.

[Patrick Hines]

Has anything changed since the seventies?

[Julian Benzavale]

No, not really. If anything, there are more summer homes on Cape Cod now. There were even when I was there.

[Patrick Hines]

My parents go to P Town every summer, but they go for like one long weekend at a BNB they really like.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And it's fine. Like, you're allowed to go and live your life and be happy, but something's gotta be done, you know? Like, it's. It's really, really bad. And especially, I mean, it was really sad when my mom got into that line of work because she was trying to get Housing for people who were HIV positive and legally discriminated against in a town like Provincetown, you know, where it was like an epicenter on Cape Cod. And. And there would be all of these people with nowhere to live in all of these empty houses. Like, it makes my blood boil. Wow, it's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's like a kind of silly, stupid question. Like, when did bed and breakfast sort of become a thing? Like, when did they start to become popular?

[Julian Benzavale]

I don't know the answer, but I would imagine like around like the time the car was invented. Because it sounds like the kind of thing that you would like get in a car and go do for a weekend or something. Was that a smart thing that I just guessed?

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Julian Benzavale]

This is something I knew nothing about. I know Provincetown as we all do. It's like a gay mecca. Well, apparently in the 1970s, 70s it was called Hell Town.

[Patrick Hines]

Because Warren tells us he's a cop for 35 years. He started in 1974 when he was 17. I'm like, my God, really?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Really?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah, he tells us about Hell Town.

[Meredith Lober]

It was known as Hell Town. The bikers would take over one bar across Commercial Street. The fishermen would be another bar. And they would be bumping heads all the time. We would go all night long from fight to fight to fight. I would go home every night, bloodied, torn uniform. Anything goes. Drugs, alcohol, you name it. It was allowed.

[Patrick Hines]

They were constantly fighting. And 17 year old Warren is in the middle of it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like, if you go to Provincetown today, it is just gays. It's just gays and straights there to look at them.

[Patrick Hines]

Why do you think my parents go every.

[Julian Benzavale]

So of course the bikers and the fishermen fucking brawling in the streets on Commercial Street. Like Commercial street was the main street today it was the main street then it just used to be yesterday.

[Patrick Hines]

Today and tomorrow.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yesterday. I feel like the cops have never had an easier job than the cops who work in P Town now. Like, hey, Mary.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. You know, fucking be nice.

[Julian Benzavale]

Change.

[Patrick Hines]

This is why we can't have nice things. Everyone's in P Town and then the bikers and the fishermen have to be fighting and like, I know, like spilling out of the bars, fighting in the.

[Julian Benzavale]

Middle of the street, absolutely wild.

[Patrick Hines]

Get a grip. So back to the lady of the dunes. They want to identify her and they're like, well, it can't be that hard, right? Like it's a very small community, right?

[Julian Benzavale]

That's when Warren says he immediately knew it wasn't somebody Local because nobody was missing a loved one, you know, so.

[Patrick Hines]

Maybe she was just visiting for the summer. Maybe no one knew her. Maybe she was passing through like now because she wasn't local. It could be endless possibilities.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And we need Jimmy Meads, who's the son of Chief Me. So remember, Chief Me is one who gets the case in the beginning. He. It becomes his like total obsession and he wants to be really clear.

[Meredith Lober]

As the days and weeks and months went by, we could find, find no more information about this woman. So the community gave her a name.

[Jimmy Meade]

The lady of the Dunes was a term that the locals used. I'm not sure that my father was the one that came up with it. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's. The lady of the Dunes is a perfectly fine name, right? Could have been like Dunes doe. No, lady of the Dunes.

[Patrick Hines]

What he's trying to wipe his hands clean of. I'm like, okay. The location is also interesting because you had to have known this area very well.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And when you'd go into the dunes, you were actually monitored. Like you had to pass another shack in the ring. Rangers would write down your license plate and take your name. And then we learn, quote, the shock wasn't manned 24 hours a day. I'm like, then what's the point? Either do it or don't.

[Julian Benzavale]

100 do it or don't. Why are we doing it when like, like, literally a murderer can come and drop off a body because they know.

[Patrick Hines]

That if you're doing it for a reason, like, do it or don't. I can't.

[Julian Benzavale]

It was a different time, GP. I know, I know. I couldn't agree more.

[Patrick Hines]

So 1969, five years earlier, there was a serial killer named Tony Costa.

[Julian Benzavale]

Once again, this is two towns over from where I grew up. I had no fucking idea. This is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

And he murdered and.

[Julian Benzavale]

Excuse me, what was it? What was he known as?

[Meredith Lober]

Tony Costa was known as Tony Chop Chop due to his crimes. That particular case occurred actually in Truro, the next town over. There were similarities with Tony Coster. And now we have another murdered young woman.

[Julian Benzavale]

These women who were murdered were all visitors. Nobody in town suddenly was like, well, hey, where did so and so go?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, the lady of the Dunes is better.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. Tony Chop.

[Patrick Hines]

Where's the guy being like, I didn't come up with that name. Don't blame me, please.

[Julian Benzavale]

His nickname was Tony Chop Chop.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone's the worst. So he would. He would murder and dismember women and Then leave their remains in the. In the woods. Like the next town over from p town.

[Julian Benzavale]

I truly, I'm not making a joke. I cannot believe I didn't grow up with like don't be naughty or we're gonna send you into the woods and Tony chop chop is gonna get you say instead nothing. They were just like, can you be home by night? You know, like it was, it was. I was raised in kindness. But like the fact that this man wasn't a cropsy level boogeyman is shocking. Like, I cannot believe this is the first I'm hearing of this.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Julian Benzavale]

Happened two towns over.

[Patrick Hines]

So Tony died by suicide in prison, thank God. And they're saying that this is just not connected. So this Jimmy me guy whose chief Meads son, he was 12 years old at the time and he's like, I got to tell you, like you never forget it. Like, like the feeling of fear in his hometown is just like it's stuck with him.

[Julian Benzavale]

You also never forget it when you're Jimmy because his dad, the sheriff, he would go visit his dad at work.

[Jimmy Meade]

One thing that sticks out in my mind was me going to the police station to visit my dad. As you walked into his office, his desk was right in front of me. There was paneled walls on either side, in photographs. The gruesome display of her hands chopped off, her skull caved in. I remember the skull laying on his desk. The whole thing was pretty disturbing.

[Julian Benzavale]

Along with her skull.

[Patrick Hines]

Her skull was on.

[Julian Benzavale]

His skull just sat on his death. Like, that is a terrible evidence collection. I don't know how that is allowed.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, in the 70s they didn't know.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah, I guess that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

To me it's more like a respect thing I guess.

[Julian Benzavale]

I love it when Daisy comes to visit me at the office. We're gonna keep it nice and clean. No skulls anywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Benzavale]

Why are we traumatizing the children like.

[Patrick Hines]

A murder victim skull?

[Julian Benzavale]

Tony chop chops going to get you in the woods.

[Patrick Hines]

Disgusting. But in the 70s, like to that point, they don't really have too much to work with. They have like her blood type, her fingerprints and photographs. Like no DNA obviously.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

However, dental records. So this woman had a lot of gold fillings, like a lot like Thousands, like almost $10,000 worth of gold fillings. This is done in what they call the New York style of dentistry. And hell is that they never tell us what it means. Google is useless. When you google this phrase. It's related to this case.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh really?

[Patrick Hines]

That's it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, that's so Funny.

[Patrick Hines]

What is the New York style of dentistry? A lot of gold fillings. Ten grand worth of gold.

[Julian Benzavale]

And they give you an everything bagel under the smear on the way out.

[Patrick Hines]

Everything bagel with cream cheese is the best. I get one every Sunday.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, my God. Chief me is saying, like, you know, you can draw a lot of conclusions.

[Patrick Hines]

About the dental work.

[Julian Benzavale]

The gold in this young lady's head.

[Patrick Hines]

Value today at 7 to $10,000.

[Meredith Lober]

So Chief M.E. contacted the American. American Dental association to see if any dentist out there recognized these charts.

[Jimmy Meade]

He contacted every state in the country, as many dentists as he could. You would think or hope that someone would have looked at that and said, yes, I know who that is. I worked on her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, you'd think someone would be like, all right, the 10 grand worth of New York style fillings, that's me.

[Julian Benzavale]

Or like. But also, where. Yeah, exactly. And where's the social light that. Because, like, that would have been like 80 grand in today money or whatever. Like, that is some fancy dental work.

[Patrick Hines]

So the chief wants to give this woman a proper.

[Julian Benzavale]

Rip them out.

[Patrick Hines]

I know if I'm going to the.

[Julian Benzavale]

Dentist, I don't want all that. Just rip them out.

[Patrick Hines]

Gross.

[Julian Benzavale]

Just rip them out.

[Patrick Hines]

Just don't go to the dentist. Well, listen, I mean, I know we have to. I go. I know. I hate going.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But I go.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's really awful.

[Patrick Hines]

It really makes me anxious. And my dentist is great.

[Julian Benzavale]

Same.

[Patrick Hines]

She's so nice. She totally gets my anxiety. But I just don't like it because I know one day, like, I just think, oh, that's about to hurt me, probably. So then I'm tense, or I'm waiting for, like, the horrible news where it's like, either you have cancer or you. I need to do this really long, painful thing. I'm just waiting for the other.

[Julian Benzavale]

Novocain's illegal now, so we have to do it with a fork. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

If you could knock me out for a cleaning, I would take it.

[Julian Benzavale]

I've got. I've gotten knocked out for an extraction twice.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you're supposed to, right?

[Julian Benzavale]

No, no, the extraction is, like, really? They're not supposed to knock you out for it, but they will, Viv. My doctor will give me as much of that fucking laughing gas as I want. I've told you this before.

[Patrick Hines]

That for a cleaning.

[Julian Benzavale]

For. Not for cleaning, but for the cavities.

[Patrick Hines]

And what's the deal? Hey, dentist, why can't we just, like, lighten up on the cleaning? Can I just ask you, like, what is the what's the law there? Like, what are the rules? Like, why can't I know? I just like have the laughing gas get a nice little buzz.

[Julian Benzavale]

No, I couldn't agree more.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it a cost?

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, I needed so much. She told me it was going to be an extra 50. I was depleting the tank. I know, but I remember at one.

[Patrick Hines]

Point, again, ideally you just knock me out and I'd wake up and be.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like squeaky four days later. I remember thinking I was so high on nitrous oxide. I remember thinking I have to stay alive for Daisy. That thought went through.

[Patrick Hines]

My God, you're such a bad.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You go straight to the path. Can you just enjoy it for 30 minutes or whatever?

[Julian Benzavale]

But then they turn it off, you're good in two minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

I would love to know why I can't have it for a filling.

[Julian Benzavale]

I agree. Me too. Yeah, it's okay to DM about that.

[Patrick Hines]

I think it's ridiculous. Speaking of ridiculous, this Chief Meads guy wants to give the lady of the dudes a proper burial. That's not the ridiculous.

[Julian Benzavale]

What's your problem with that?

[Patrick Hines]

But he wants to bury her in a Catholic cemetery. And the church is like, I don't know, is she Catholic now? First of all, I understand that on one side, like, does she want to be buried in a Catholic cemetery? Not everyone wants that.

[Julian Benzavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

But to say we won't allow this woman.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

A resting place because we don't know if she's Catholic or not is categorically ridiculous.

[Julian Benzavale]

This, this is no offense to my Catholics. Hey, Julie and Camille. But like, they've got a lot of rules.

[Patrick Hines]

Too many rules.

[Julian Benzavale]

They like to drink, which is great.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, who has to follow them? Only some people. And what about the other rules about the very. The sex rules.

[Julian Benzavale]

And I love being a Cathol, I was really into it, but like, yeah, there's lots of rules.

[Patrick Hines]

But this whole like, yeah, we're not going to do this like, nice thing because she may or may not be Catholic. So maybe she doesn't want that 100%.

[Julian Benzavale]

I mean, it ends up being a good thing because they got her right downtown quote, just in case they need to exhume her. Look, everybody wants to identify this woman, but like, what these remains go through is just wild.

[Patrick Hines]

But the police chief pulls some strings and she's buried in the Catholic church. Yeah, the Catholic cemetery, for better or worse. So the case like really, really affected this Chief Meads. Yeah, he was like haunted. That she was unidentified. That she was unidentified. Took this very, very seriously. He not. He took her skull off his desk and would just carry it with him. Like he wanted to be close to her, close to the case. Like, he just sort of like he.

[Julian Benzavale]

Would carry the skull around in a leather bag he gave his son as a gift. Holy.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the case that really liked him.

[Julian Benzavale]

Well, one day he takes the. The skull and gets a clay reconstruction of her entire head made.

[Jimmy Meade]

He had the skull brought to have clay restructure the face, the body to come up with a picture.

[Julian Benzavale]

She's described as 5 foot 6 to 5 foot 8, about 140 pounds, athletic build, long reddish brown hair.

[Warren Tobias]

They sought information from the public based on those composites. If anyone could make an identification.

[Meredith Lober]

Chief Meades went to the media with it everywhere in every possible way he could.

[Patrick Hines]

And then they get like hundreds of leads and nothing pans out.

[Julian Benzavale]

And like, officer Warren is just like, I would think so often, like somebody out. Out there is missing a family member. Why are we not hearing from them?

[Patrick Hines]

And they learn, like, during the course of the investigation, they actually found six women who disappeared on purpose.

[Julian Benzavale]

How? Because they say they were found alive and were like, no, I left my family on purpose. I don't want to go back. Leave me alone. Yeah, can we treat our people better? You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

We've been. We've heard this before where it's like women who just like, didn't want to be married to their husbands because they were like child brides and they were abused and they were just like, I'm going to change my name.

[Julian Benzavale]

It was much, much, much easier to disappear back then. So, like, it was a thing you could actually do. And they got. And they're like, leave me alone. You never saw.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So they're thinking like, is she on the run? Was she a criminal? Is she trying to disappear? Because, remember, her hands were cut off.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right. So those are the kinds of people, he says, that would get their fingerprints taken. Criminals, people who were in the military. What was the other one?

[Patrick Hines]

Federal employees.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. So like, if you're trying to hide her identity, she's probably one of those three kinds of people. Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So, chief, me. It's also just a hard left turn. Calls in the psychics.

[Julian Benzavale]

The psychic tells him that her hands are buried under an establishment called the pied Piper on Commercial Street. Not there anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

No, because they had just done a renovation and even if they were there, they wouldn't be there anymore.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we jump to 1989. Chief Meads retires without solving the Case. And again, like, it haunted him.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But he left behind all of his work in hopes that someone would use all of his research to solve the case. All this paperwork, so much detail, thousands of pages.

[Julian Benzavale]

Because now Chief Warren, he's the guy taking. He's like picking up the mantle.

[Patrick Hines]

Someone says he was ruthless in the way he hunted down every lead. Like he really seemingly cared a lot.

[Julian Benzavale]

But now DNA is a thing. So now they're thinking like, it's the late 80s, early 90s. DNA is on the scene. And Chief Warren goes to get the evidence from the state police, who had kept it.

[Meredith Lober]

They had the towel, the jeans, her hair. When I got to the state police barracks, they gave me a sheet of paper. It was a report saying that they had thrown away the evidence. I was shocked. Why in the world would you throw away the evidence to an unsolved murder?

[Julian Benzavale]

They threw away the physical evidence from the lady of the Dunes case.

[Patrick Hines]

In an unsolved murder.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Their excuse is that they needed more room in the storage locker. I mean, I can't even handle it.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't understand. And now, Warren, I have words for you, Warren. Warren, who's taken over the case, says in order to protect everyone's reputation. I didn't tell anyone about this.

[Julian Benzavale]

So this is what he's saying. He's saying I'm telling this on camera for the first time in 30 years. Years.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. But, like, this is what I'm always screaming about. Like, stop protecting bad behavior. All these good cops. Can you speak up when something shitty happens in the fucking horrible system that we have in this country?

[Julian Benzavale]

So true.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, oh, they're just like, getting rid of evidence. How many other times did they get rid of evidence? How many other things did they mishandled? It's like, I know. Like, you see something, say something. Right. So all these like, oh, it's just a bad apple. Oh, there are good cops. When the good cops just sit by and, like, don't say no. Anything specifically to protect somebody's reputation. Cease to be good.

[Julian Benzavale]

I.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, can we please stop doing this? I know. 70s. I know you're here now. Thank you. I guess. But, like, that was infuriating to hear. And the Massachusetts.

[Julian Benzavale]

I thought we were going to get like, a deep belly.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Massachusetts State Police declined a request to discuss the lady the Dunes case. Fucking shocking.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure they did.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But there's a new lead from the Pembroke Police Department. A cop.

[Julian Benzavale]

I love hearing you say the towns from where I grew up. I know. You said it. You nailed it.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, you know, another sandwich.

[Julian Benzavale]

Sandwich. The sandwich police.

[Patrick Hines]

I wrote a letter, thank you note to Mrs. Mitchell.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, my God, fam. My friend Lynn Mitchell, who was my boss at Mrs. Mitchell's on Cape Cod. You should all go. It's still there. She came to see my show in Boston and she brought bags of like, goodies for me and Daisy and Jillian. And she gave you, like, the nicest sweatpants.

[Patrick Hines]

She gave me these amazing sweatpants that I love. They say, like, Cape Cod on them and it's like, really fun T shirt. But I wanted to write her a thank you note to say thank you because it was so, like, unnecessary.

[Julian Benzavale]

So nice of you.

[Patrick Hines]

So I just wrote like, I couldn't believe, like, the Mrs. Mitchell.

[Julian Benzavale]

Like, Lyn.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God. Like, I've, you know, I've heard so much about you and like, that was very kind and so generous of you or whatever. But then when I on slack, I was like, can I just see her address?

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I was like, whatever, because it's in Sandwich. And so I was like, oh, my God. Sandwich. So I like, wrote out the address, but I don't want to say any. Anything else about the address. But so I got. I just like, wrote her a note the next day. And it was so funny to like, just write to Mrs. Mitchell and like, the town and Sandwich.

[Julian Benzavale]

Wait, what's. What's the name of the town?

[Patrick Hines]

Sand.

[Julian Benzavale]

Sandwich.

[Patrick Hines]

Sandwich. I don't know. My mouth makes weird sounds. Anyway, there's a cop who has a theory about a woman who went missing in 1973. And her name is Rory Jean Kessinger.

[Julian Benzavale]

Now, I am obsessed with this case. It's 1973. She was living just off Cape. For anybody who doesn't know what that means, it means just over the border. The Sagamore Bridge is considered off cape. And one night the police raid her apartment. And when they did that, she tried to shoot one of the officers.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, she was running guns and drugs all over the country, shooting at cops. They describe it as Bonnie and Clyde without the Clyde, just Bonnie. So that's why they are raiding her apartment. She was kind of like doing some crazy shit.

[Julian Benzavale]

She ends up in the Plymouth House of Corrections where she hacked her way through some bars, slipped out a window and was never seen again.

[Patrick Hines]

She gets her hands on a hacksaw in the Plymouth House of Corrections and bails and is in the wind. And we never hear from her.

[Julian Benzavale]

And we never hear from her. So the cop thinks this could be her.

[Meredith Lober]

The timing was perfect for her to be the lady in the Dunes because that happened before the lady in the Dunes was found. She fit the description. Physically. She was a criminal, which fit one of the three possibilities of why he would remove the hands.

[Warren Tobias]

But the only way to confirm that she was a match for the lady of the Dunes was through DNA.

[Julian Benzavale]

And the only way to prove that it's her is through DNA. But the evidence is gone.

[Patrick Hines]

It's been thrown out. Out.

[Julian Benzavale]

So they try to get a profile from the skull that the chief has been carrying around in a bowling bag for the last 10 years. That lab couldn't pull enough to get a DNA profile, but we jumped to the year 2000. The case is now 25 years old, and a guy named Dr. Bruce Jackson could be in the picture.

[Patrick Hines]

I need to slow down on Dr. Bruce.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, no. Is he garbage?

[Patrick Hines]

No, he. No, he's a legend.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, great.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a forensics DNA scientist. He's also a biologist and a marine biologist. He's, like, the best of the best. He was at the forefront of the Roots Project. You know about the Roots?

[Julian Benzavale]

No. Wait. No.

[Patrick Hines]

So if you don't know the. Like, just like, as per the Internet, the Roots Project, he was linking African American families with slavery roots. Who. Their ancestral tribes and families in West Africa using DNA analysis.

[Julian Benzavale]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

He was also helping identify lost people in Vietnam. Like, this guy, like, when they. When he's first introduced to us, he's, like, shaking hands with President Obama. Like, he is the best of the best of what he does. He's, like, renowned.

[Julian Benzavale]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

So this guy, he's like, DNA, you say? Like, this is what he does. Like, but he also does so many other sciences. Like, he's just so smart, and he.

[Julian Benzavale]

Does it for free. So he's volunteering, hearing his time, his lab and his money and his knowledge. And his knowledge to get a DNA profile of the lady of the Dunes. He must have just been fascinated by the case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. This guy is renowned. He's so smart in so many different fields, but, like, DNA, just the whole thing. The Ruth Project is so amazing.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And so they exhume the lady of the Dunes body and give it to Jackson so he. And he is able to get a full DNA profile. And now they've got to find Kessinger's family. And. And. And Warren is like. It was really difficult, but I finally tracked down the mom.

[Meredith Lober]

I had had a gut feeling this was gonna be it from the first time I heard about Rory Jean Kessinger. So Now I could test her DNA against the DNA from the lady of the Dunes. This was huge. This could solve the case. But it was not Roy Jean Kessinger. I remember looking at that huge file and thinking to myself, I'm back at square one.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's not her.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we have to start all over again. And now it's like 2000. The rumors are flying. Was it Satanist? Was it a mob hit? Was it an actual ghost? You theories are all over the place.

[Julian Benzavale]

I want to be really, really clear. It is always, always Satanists in the way.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you kidding?

[Julian Benzavale]

Every single time. No, it's always believable. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

We're back to the Satanists in the Dunes now. How many times? Satanists don't do this. They don't believe in it.

[Julian Benzavale]

They don't believe in it every single time. It is the Satanist. It's always them. I know. It's so. It's because such an easy answer.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like. But it's like the stupidest answer because it's fundamentally not what it is.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's a Johnny Chop Chop in the middle of the woods, or whatever the hell his name was.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we have to talk about Haddon Clark. He's a serial killer. He confesses to the murder of the lady of the Dunes.

[Julian Benzavale]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And so this guy, Alec Wilkinson, he's an author and a writer.

[Julian Benzavale]

He's like obsessed with Haddon Clark because they took a swimming class together when they were kids. Like, how wild is that?

[Patrick Hines]

So Alec Wilkinson is an. He's looking for stories on the cape and the cops tell him about the serial killer. And his mother's like, yeah, you were in swim class with him. And I'm like, that's such a mom thing. Remembering all the kids names from swim class.

[Julian Benzavale]

Do you say Haddon Clark?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, oh my God, he's that boy. He didn't do very well, but. So 2000, Alec reaches out to the serial killer he took swim lessons with.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's fascinated by this guy because he's like, oh, he's not imposing, he's not threatening. He had kind of a sullen side. I'm like, yeah, don't they all like snooze fest?

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. I mean, this guy Haddon Clark, we learned, like he worked in Provincetown. He'd been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He also had narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. Like, this guy is really, really sick.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 1986 in Maryland, and we learn about six year old Michelle Dore.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. This is when, like, Haddon Clark becomes known to authorities for the first time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She goes missing. He was her neighbor, and he's described as like, the quote, town oddball, which I hate. We love weirdos.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. Like, stop Boo Radley forever.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he's just not, like, he's just a sick guy. Like, don't say like a weirdo. Whatever.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But he's questioned and the case kind of goes cold. And then by 1992, another little girl goes missing. Her name is Laura Hatling. And they find blood in her bedroom and bloody clothes in the woods. And this Haddon Clark guy's fingerprint was in the blood. So he's connected to two murders of young girls.

[Julian Benzavale]

And eventually he confesses to the murder of Laura Hoing and takes the police to her body. So he did that.

[Patrick Hines]

And he did the same thing with Michelle Dore as well. So we got him. I had to look it up, but they got him on Michelle door. I'm not going to describe what happened.

[Julian Benzavale]

So he's in prison, and it's the late 90s.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't mean like, oh, that's too bad. I mean, like, it's too bad.

[Julian Benzavale]

Horrible what he did. Yeah. But information comes from another inmate incarcerated with Haddon Clark. Because this guy, the other inmate had long hair, hadn't. Clark is convinced this guy is the second coming of Jesus Christ, and he just starts confessing all of his sins to him.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And it's also like, is he playing it up or is it real? Because schizophrenia is a very real thing. So, like, what's. What is going on here?

[Julian Benzavale]

But he confesses over and over again.

[Meredith Lober]

And Clark confessed to killing lady in the dooms over and over and over again.

[Jimmy Meade]

He eventually would tell us that he became angry, attacked the woman, bludgeoned her, and removed all her clothing. He then removed her hands where he.

[Meredith Lober]

Cut her hands up.

[Julian Benzavale]

Show me on each. How far up? About an inch up.

[Jimmy Meade]

Clark's description of what he did to the lady of the Dunes was consistent with the crime scene.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy also had a lot of trophies, like, lots of jewelry. He had a jewelry box filled with beach sand.

[Julian Benzavale]

And so they think that, like, this is his trophy from having killed the lady of the Dunes. Is that he, like, filled it with the sand. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now this guy is being brought from Maryland to Cape Cod so he can show the police where her hands are.

[Julian Benzavale]

They brought Jesus with them, but they gotta make a pit stop. Girl, do you wanna talk about the pit stop?

[Patrick Hines]

Jesus is the Haddon whisperer.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's Right. Yes. Okay. So they're driving him to Cape Cod, and he says. Now, we learned that he is actually two personalities. He's got an alter ego named Kristen who is, quote, mean and evil and remorseless. And on the morning that he's being driven to Provincetown to show to prove to them that he killed the lady of the Dunes by showing the police where he did it and where her hands are buried. Married.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Benzavale]

He is Kristen that morning.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. According to him, he has multiple personalities. I think I told you this. Someone that my mom used to know was a social worker and worked with people who had multiple personalities. That's the wrong way to say now. I apologize. I don't know what the proper.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And she said, like, it really. When you. You're speaking to people who suffer from this, like, their whole body really changes. Like, they really do embody the person who they are. So, like, Kristen, like, yeah, she was really there in that moment with the cops, and they were like, what the fuck? So she was being really uncooperative, and she was being really just, like, bad. And, like, it just, like, it was loud. It's, like, dangerous.

[Julian Benzavale]

And because Hadden is dressed in men's clothing, they're 10 miles from Wellfleet, and they go to a clothing store.

[Patrick Hines]

She's demanding that they go shopping so she can wear clothes that she feels comfortable in.

[Julian Benzavale]

It's funny because once again, 10 miles from Wellfleet is, like, where I grew up. So, like, they're, like, basically in my town, and they stopped at a clothing store in 2000, and they're like, this was 20 years ago. This is, like, this would have been so weird. No, it was 2005. There were drag queens everywhere in P Town.

[Patrick Hines]

Give me a break.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. And, like, even in my town, which is like, 40 miles from P Town, like, like, it was. They just make a big deal that it would be weird for a man to go in and buy women's clothing. It's not. Not on Cape cod, not in 2000, but this also.

[Patrick Hines]

So they take the killer, who is Kristen in this moment, shopping for clothes. But it doesn't help anything.

[Julian Benzavale]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

The only thing that happens is that they're now late for the meeting because the killer kept attacking officers because he says he wants to drink their blood. So it's just a, like, chaotic mess on the way to.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. And they pick up Warren at the police station, and Warren is, like, sitting in the backseat next to this killer. And I'm like, didn't they just say that he's Trying to bite the police officers to drink their blood.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not very clear if it's Chr. In doing this or if it's had and Clark doing this. Like, that sort of gets lost in the mix here.

[Julian Benzavale]

But I'm just saying, like, maybe don't put Warren in the backseat right next to him. That's all I'm saying. You know what I mean? So they take Warren a fighting chance.

[Patrick Hines]

They take him, and we see it, and he's in the area, and they're saying, like, he's providing a lot of details, and he's talking about how the area changed since 1974. His information is very compelling. And Meredith, from the very beginning, is, like, barely. Like, he. She goes. He ultimately was unable to provide any evidence or any significant detail at all. Thank you, Meredith, for doing, like, the footnote correction of, like, not really.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're back to square one. Everyone is really bummed. It's been so long. Like, we're thinking, like, not even the DNA, like, all these leads, and it's just like, hurry up and wait. You know that feeling where it's like, I'm. I'm so close. And then it's like, now we're from the. At the beginning again, and, like, it.

[Julian Benzavale]

Just happened with that other lady that had escaped from the pen.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Rory. But then, like, kind of out of nowhere, this episode ends, but the credits start rolling. Yeah, this episode ends with a man who was adopted, and he's searching for his birth mom.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then it's just, like, I was, like, really interested in finding my. My. And, like, looking through, like, finding my history because I was adopted. And then, like, the credits roll, and then it ends.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Where are we going? Do you know Rory?

[Julian Benzavale]

I know. Do you know Rory?

[Patrick Hines]

Are we gonna, like, are you going to p. Town? Like, where are you from? What is going on?

[Julian Benzavale]

So we're a good cliffhanger.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a great cliffhanger. We get all of this information. Like, this is a very, very, very good series.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yeah. All right, fam. We did it. We did episode one of the lady of the Dunes. I know. It's called thank you very much.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because it's in your backyard.

[Julian Benzavale]

Because it's my backyard. It's nice to be home again. It's nice to be with a different set of people in Massachusetts.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, for this one day and night. Meredith. Could you imagine Meredith and can. I love to see Meredith. And can. Oh, Meredith would have solved this in.

[Julian Benzavale]

Two seconds, no question.

[Patrick Hines]

Unfortunately.

[Julian Benzavale]

Can we get her there.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. All right, well, you know what? Meredith.

[Julian Benzavale]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I love Meredith.

[Julian Benzavale]

Same.

[Patrick Hines]

I love her. I can't wait to dive in more. Like, we get so much more Meredith. This at first, like, the introduction, seems like we're going to be with her for the whole episode. This one, we're not, but trust me, we get so much more and it's like, so worth it. She's awesome.

[Julian Benzavale]

All right, then. We love you. We'll see you next time.

[Patrick Hines]

All right. We love you. Stay safe.

[Julian Benzavale]

Bye. Bye. Oh, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julian Benzavale]

It is this. This case is so. I cannot believe in my lifetime I got to see this be solved.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It's really unbelievable. And it's like. It's also shitty, but it's also amazing. There's, like, a lot of feelings here. And the next two episodes are on our Patreon waiting for you if you're interested.

[Julian Benzavale]

And they really do cover, like, Meredith's journey to, like, solving the thing and. And, like. But also it tells the story of Ruth, who we come to learn is the lady of the Dunes. And we really get her really tragic backstory. And it's so well told. It's such a well made documentary. I hope you'll check it out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Meredith does not mince words.

[Julian Benzavale]

Oh, no. Absolutely not.

[Patrick Hines]

I love an honest Queen.

[Julian Benzavale]

So, fam. Patreon.com true crime obsessed. Or you can just click the link in the show notes here. Go check out the other episodes. There's also over 450 full ad free bonus apps to get on our Patreon. When you sign up, you get drag bingo at the $5 level. And it just goes from there.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we're not gatekeeping drag bingo. Absolutely. At the lowest level.

[Julian Benzavale]

What kind of monsters would we be?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, we're not.

[Julian Benzavale]

That's true. You're right. You're absolutely right again.

[Patrick Hines]

More math is math.

[Julian Benzavale]

Yes. All right. We love you, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. Bye Bye.