Caleb Ward, Part 1 - Kingdom Life Ministries and Evangelical Youth Culture

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Episode: Caleb Ward, Part 1 - Kingdom Life Ministries and Evangelical Youth Culture
Release Date: February 19, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this compelling episode of Trust Me, hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth sit down with Caleb Ward, an individual deeply entrenched in the evangelical Christian community of the early 2000s. Caleb, a former pastor's son, shares his firsthand experiences growing up within Kingdom Life Ministries, an environment characterized by intense emotional experiences, speaking in tongues, and powerful prophecies. This conversation delves into the fine line between devotion and manipulation, offering listeners an unfiltered look into the dynamics of evangelical youth culture and the lasting impact of such environments.

---

Caleb Ward's Background

Timestamp: 14:38 - 15:08

Caleb Ward introduces himself as the son of a pastor at Belvedere Baptist Church in Baltimore, Maryland. He provides a glimpse into his early life, highlighting the church's evolution from a traditional Southern Baptist denomination to a more dynamic and expressive congregation.

Caleb Ward (15:02): "I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where my dad was the pastor of a church called Belvedere Baptist Church... in the mid-90s, there was sort of like a shift where they started doing more like praise and worship and speaking in tongues."

---

Growing Up in Kingdom Life Ministries

Timestamp: 15:08 - 21:40

Caleb recounts the transition from Belvedere Baptist Church to Praise Tabernacle and eventually Kingdom Life Ministries in North Carolina. He describes the community as insular, with a strong emphasis on church activities and the pressures of being a pastor's son.

Caleb Ward (22:08): "We left Baltimore for North Carolina in 2002. It was a small town, and our church became a central part of the community... Being a pastor's kid meant there was a spotlight on me."

---

Evangelical Youth Culture and Church Activities

Timestamp: 21:40 - 35:21

The conversation delves into the vibrant and sometimes chaotic church activities that characterized Caleb's upbringing. From drum solos during praise and worship to spontaneous prophecies, Caleb illustrates how these experiences fostered a deep sense of belonging but also planted seeds of doubt.

Caleb Ward (28:35): "During praise and worship, I'm playing drums... sometimes we'd never even get to the actual sermon. It was just like a drum cage in the corner of the room."

---

Leadership and Dr. Varner's Influence

Timestamp: 35:21 - 51:08

Caleb discusses Dr. Kelly Varner, the charismatic leader of Kingdom Life Ministries, whose prophecies and theological teachings deeply influenced the congregation. Dr. Varner's approach to scripture and his authoritative presence played a pivotal role in shaping the church's direction.

Caleb Ward (40:09): "Dr. Varner would come up and he was... very charismatic. He had a dense knowledge of the Bible, pulling scripture in original languages."

---

Prophecies and Their Impact

Timestamp: 41:53 - 56:25

Caleb shares memorable instances of prophecies, including one at his graduation service that foretold his future, leaving a lasting psychological impact. These prophetic moments often blurred the lines between genuine belief and manipulative control.

Caleb Ward (42:40): "He sang a prophecy that was 'You think you're just going to school. Your life has always been under my rule. The next seven years, I'll give you all you need.' That stuck with me for a really long time."

---

Questioning and Departure from the Church

Timestamp: 56:25 - 62:37

As Caleb matured, he began to question the church's teachings and leadership, especially after the failed prophecy regarding the Carolina Panthers' Super Bowl win. This skepticism led him to explore other churches and eventually distance himself from organized religion, confronting deep-seated fears and responsibilities ingrained from his upbringing.

Caleb Ward (46:05): "I asked my dad if I could go to First Baptist Church... He said, 'If you go, I'll have to quit my job.' That shook me to my core."

---

Conclusion

Timestamp: 62:37 - End

Lola and Megan reflect on Caleb's experiences, acknowledging the complex emotions and pressures faced by pastor's children in intense religious environments. The episode concludes with a heartfelt thanks to Caleb, emphasizing the importance of recognizing red flags and trusting one's instincts when navigating belief systems.

Lola Blanc (62:29): "Big thanks to Caleb for joining us. We love you, Caleb."

---

Notable Quotes

• Caleb Ward (15:13): "We were there until I was 10. We were in Baltimore for the first 10 years of my life at this church because it was so formative. This was all I knew."

• Caleb Ward (42:56): "I did feel very responsible for things because I was a part of this family. Part of this church."

• Caleb Ward (55:05): "I was horribly depressed and I dropped out after a semester and, like, was brutal. I tried to take my own life at that time."

• Caleb Ward (56:25): "Dr. Varner would aggressively advise... like, 'This is how I commune, and this is how I have gained this understanding.'"

---

Insights & Conclusions

Caleb Ward's narrative offers a nuanced perspective on the influence of charismatic leadership within religious communities. The blend of intense emotional engagement, authoritative teachings, and collective identity can create an environment where questioning becomes challenging. Caleb's journey from unquestioning devotion to critical self-reflection underscores the enduring impact of early experiences in shaping one's beliefs and sense of self.

The episode highlights the thin line between genuine spiritual community and manipulative control, emphasizing the importance of transparency, personal autonomy, and mental well-being in any belief system.

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussion between the hosts and Caleb Ward.

Transcript

[Lola Blanc]

This is exactly right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liqu and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink and feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Free shop [e-mail] offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Caleb Ward]

Where's the best place to binge your favorite true crime podcast? On the edge of your seat or under the Caribbean sun on an award winning Virgin Voyages ship this October set sail on the first ever true crime podcast Voyage from Virgin Voyages. Catch live recordings at sea. Meet I heart true Crime hosts, enjoy Halloween themed parties and more all aboard a kid free luxurious Virgin Voyages ship. It's like a floating five star hotel with plot twists. Book now at virginvoyages.com Truecrime wanna feel.

[Lenovo Ad Speaker]

More creative but don't have the right laptop? Lenovo.com can help. Look through our legendary lineup of AI powered PCs and devices and find the one that fits your passion. Our PCs, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors as well as cutting edge AI tools, allow students to focus, learn and create with ease. That's the power of Lenovo with Intel Inside. Plus, college students and teachers can get 5% off their order. Shop now on Lenovo. The future's waiting and it needs you.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

If you have your own story of being in a cult or a high.

[Lola Blanc]

Control group, or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of power that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You'D like to share, leave us a.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Message on our hotline number at 34786 TRUST.

[Lola Blanc]

That's 347868, 7878 or shoot us an.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

[e-mail] Trust me dude.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

You trust me. Trust me. I'm like a smart person. Yeah, I've never lied to you. I never have life.

[Lola Blanc]

If you think that One person has all the answers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Don't.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two tongue speakers who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth. Tongue speakers. That's we. But you'll get it.

[Lola Blanc]

You'll get it. You'll hear it.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, it'll make sense.

[Lola Blanc]

It's good. Today our guest is Caleb Ward, my palace from the horror film community, but also a former pastor's son who experienced the height of evangelical culture in the early 2000s in a church called Kingdom Life Ministries. While Caleb was not necessarily in a traditional cult. We'll talk about what it was like growing up in an environment where everyone was speaking in tongues and having loud prophecies in church about things like who would win the game, the pressures that come with being the son of a pastor, and how those heightened emotional experiences keep people connected to their churches.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

He'll talk about the wild evangelical youth culture involving Christian rock, how good church leadership can exist, and why he thinks shunning is one of the worst parts of modern Christian religion.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode has some pretty comical evangelical cultural touchstones here that I would really like to see a TV show of. So Caleb, please get on that. But yeah, it's not what. It's not a necessarily traditional cult episode, but I think you guys will enjoy it. And there's still plenty to talk about in terms of the evangelical community and that, like, heightened emotion thing that some of these churches can give us that keep us feeling so connected to those communities beyond the point where maybe we should be right.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

Before we jump in, what's your cultist thing of this week? Actually, I know what it is because it's the same as mine.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yes, we're sharing one. Okay. You give it its introduction.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. So everyone by now, I think probably has seen all the headlines about this new cult known as the Zizians. If you consume conservative media, you will be. There will be a lot of fear mongering you're probably seeing about it. But it almost seems like this is kind of this generation's Manson family a little bit in that it's like preying on some, like, fears in conservative America, but there are actual killings that are happening. And there it's all led by one person who's like, radicalized. Some very intelligent, otherwise seemingly had good jobs and pretty normal lives. People, the Zizian leader is a trans woman. Most cults obviously are run by cisgender people. This one happens to be run by a trans woman, and that is being Run within the media. Nevertheless, it is pretty insane. Six, is it six people that have been killed now, Megan?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yes, six. They've been linked to six deaths across three states and maybe more.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. So they're apparently one of the members, Their, their parents have been killed. There was an older, there was an old man whose property they were kind of like trying to set up shop on, like camp out on. And he tried to get them to leave and they tried to kill him and then he survived and then he was going to testify against them in court and then allegedly they did kill him, this 80 something year old man. And then there was a shootout with the cops where like two people died. I, I think one of the members and maybe a cop.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I mean as far as the like carnage goes, I think that's pretty much the overarching description of it. Like you said, it's been everywhere. It's kind of confusing, you know, but it's, it is really scary. And I was kind of going back to the beginning to see what they actually were originally talking about and I found it very interesting. So there's this Bay Area rationalist thought called functional decision theory that I guess really took off at Berkeley, which is where a lot of these women were going. So basically what it's saying is that what decision do you want to make if you're making this decision for every version of yourself in every reality? So what it really wants you to do is pre commit to huge decisions so that every version of you in every reality is making the same choice. And the point of it is like it doesn't matter if it works out quote unquote in this reality, as long as you're doing it in every reality and one of them at will and in enough of them, you're going to make positive changes. So, you know, they were very committed to causes like veganism, so there was really extreme things that they decided to pre commit to that would help change this industry. Which being totally honest, I could really see myself getting caught up in a belief system like this, especially if it includes something like veganism, which I'm not currently vegan, but I have been for very long times in my life and get very passionate about it. Yeah, really interesting and definitely a cult that I could be persuaded to join.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, this is so interesting because I feel like normally you and I would be like we would totally join different cults. But this is one, not because of what you just said, but because of some of some of the other parts of their origins. Also seems like one that I would join because it's okay. So it's a group of, like, young computer scientists who are all, like, you know, apparently incredibly intelligent. Like, one of the members, all her friends kind of came forward and were like, she's so smart. She's so, like, brilliant. She had so much going for her and she got sucked into this thing. It's all of these people who are kind of. My understanding is their belief system is centered around, like, rationalist thought or whatever, and it's all about, like, making choices. My understanding is that there's some association with this idea of, like, rationalism and talking about the, you know, the dangers of AI, Just stuff that I, like, connect with. But then it starts to get pretty hairy because I guess the leader, whose name is. Oh, if you look that up, I'll just.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I'll just say, like, rationalists use this, the school of thought that I described, to justify, like, radical altruism. If I donate now, I want every version of me and all realities to donate. You know, if I kill the bad guy now, I want every version of me in all realities to kill the bad guy.

[Lola Blanc]

That's their version of rationalism. Because traditionally, rationalism is believing that reason is the primary source of knowledge, not experience. And so I think a lot of people would not believe in multiple realities necessarily. So the leaders.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Who also faked her own death, which was a side plot I was not expecting.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, by the way, she. She's just been arrested. She and someone else have just been arrested. So that's why this is breaking news this week. So the leader, Ziz, one of the things that she was starting to talk about was this idea that there are two different parts of your brain and, like, they have conflicting personalities and ideas or whatever. And, like, something about, you know, trying to reconcile these two different parts of yourself, which is not based in anything actually rationalist or, like, based on any evidence. That's just, like, some shit she made up. So the point is, we don't really know that much. We know that the, like, general outlines of some of the beliefs. But as we know, the beliefs are not generally important. What's generally. The key is that there's a leader who is, you know, manipulating people and kind of radicalizing them. And in this case, they are. They have been radicalized to the point where people have been murdered. And that is all we know. And also we. There. No one's been convicted in court yet, so we. We don't know who did what or allegedly. It's all alleged, but they've been linked to these deaths, we should say.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, I will say that there was an article just kind of describing the trans women in the group and how they were all. And, and you know, this, this is just one article. But they're just saying that they're like super lonely, vulnerable people that, you know, we see that as being people cults prey on.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So more to come. I'm sure. This will be in the news for many weeks and months and we will update y'.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All.

[Lola Blanc]

But until then, should we talk to Caleb?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Let's talk to Caleb. So you've decided to quit your job and chase after your dreams. Good for you. But FYI, if you run a business, then you need all the help you can get. Even the biggest names in the industry need help. The BBC, Penguin Books, Sephora. These are all companies that have a business behind the business. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet and the so secret secret with shop pay that boost conversions up to 50%. Meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store and their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that the biggest companies use. Sign up for your $1 per month tr period at shopify.com trustme all lowercase go to shopify.com trustme to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com trustme.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Washablesofas.com has your back featuring the Annabe Collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and Certain restrictions may apply.

[Lenovo Ad Speaker]

Are you shopping for a new laptop while still trying to keep up with technology and AI? Talk about feeling burnt out. But no more. Lenovo.com makes it easier than ever to find the perfect PC. In fact, we'll break it down for you. Step one, shop our lineup of AI PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Because why deal with downloading new software when you can buy a smarter PC that already comes with all of the AI features and tools? Step two, Find the one that fits your passion. Whether you're a creative genius, a research scientist, a hardcore gamer, or a future CEO, no dream is too big. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, you can keep up with your ideas as well as any challenges you may face. Step 3 add to cart and purchase. Oh, if you're a college student or a teacher, make an education account through us and get 5% off your whole order. Shop now at lenovo.com A Better Future is waiting and it needs you.

[Caleb Ward]

What do stuff they don't want you to know. Buried bones and betrayal have in common. These hosts are all headed to the Caribbean for the first ever true crime voyage on award winning kid. Free virgin voyages and you're invited book [e-mail] truecrime.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Caleb Ward. Trust me.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Thanks for being here in the flesh.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That was the most enthusiastic entrance. I haven't seen him in so long. That's so fun.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It does feel like a nice, like little reunion. This was great. This is perfect. I've never felt more welcome in my life.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God. That's all we want.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

So you are a pastor's son.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And you are in a group we have never talked about before. Start us at the beginning.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Tell us about some of your early memories of religion, like maybe that first church that you were in.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, so, okay, so I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where my dad was the pastor of a church called Belvedere Baptist Church, which was essentially sort of like an offshoot of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is a denomination mostly based in the South. Obviously it was predominantly just sort of like a standard like Baptist Christian church for a very long time. And then sort of in like the mid-90s, there was sort of like a shift where they started doing more like praise and worship and speaking in tongues and using banners and you know, all kinds of like performative.

[Lola Blanc]

Using banners.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

What's a banner?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, like giant banners that just say like Jesus. Like there were like a couple of like mostly women I feel like, who Would just sort of, like, parade through the church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I want to be a banner girl.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I know. Yeah. Banners and ribbons. It was a little like, what's the competition? What's the Olympic competition?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's kind of strange for there to be a ribbon. Oh, the ribbons. Yeah, that's. I mean, were you kind of like, whoa, that's weird, or.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

No, because that was all I knew. Like, I. I remember because I went to Christian school at, like, a different. At, like, a Lutheran school for a long time. And, like, we would have, like, Lutheran chapel. And I was like, oh, this is that. I think maybe that was, like, the first time where I was like, oh, this is a lot different than what we do on, like, my Sundays are a lot different where, like, at this Lutheran school, it was a lot more, like, traditional and hymns and stand up, sit down, kneel, and you're out the door. Like, very standard, like, Christianity. Lutheran Christianity. And ours was more like a rock concert.

[Lola Blanc]

So I was Mormon. So Mormon church is very solemn. We only play the organ, and no one's saying anything funny ever. I mean, maybe you'll have a missionary who will get up and give a talk, and he might crack a joke or two, but generally it's, like, quite serious. And I went to, like, some friends services or whatever, and I was like, what the fuck is going on? There's guitar in church.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I mean, it's how I learned how to play drums. It's how I learned how to play every instrument that I know how to play was. Because I was, like, in the band.

[Lola Blanc]

That's kind of sick.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Okay, cool. For, like, me and the, like, 60 people that would come to our church, I was, like, a local celebrity to 60 people.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That same Tsaro was, like, seen as what worship to God was.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Sorrow, like, way more serious than Mormons.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

The act of being sad. Oh, yeah, yeah. We. We had to be.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It's very Catholic.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

You're like, sorrow. That sounds like a cool rock band. No, just sad.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It's like a Nine Inch Nails cover band.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And we weren't even allowed to have organ. It was just people singing.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, just acapella.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah. And. And sometimes not good.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, well, I'm sure.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah. So far, your group sounds kind.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. I mean, like, as a kid, you're like, oh, my God. We get to, like, run around and, like, this is kind of fun. And, you know, we were there until. Until I was 10. We were. We were in Baltimore for the first 10 years of my life at this church because it was so formative. This was all I knew. We were there several days a week. You know, my. My mom had a job at an accounting firm. I think she was working or. No, it was a cpa. And my dad was, you know, at the church every day. And I think the congregation was like, at that time was probably like 100, 150 or something like that. It was a lot bigger at that time, which I don't know if that's. That's not a megachurch by any stretch of the imagination. BIG because of, like, what. The church that we eventually ended up at was a lot smaller, but this was, you know, mid to late 90s, so it was like DC talk and reliant K were, like, big bands in my life because, like, you know, that was all I was allowed to listen to. And, like, POD was like the first, like, like, more hard, you know, band.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you guys know Christian rock? Yeah, we are.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

We are.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Of course, that's the one that, like, most people know, but, like, when I think of bod, I think of Snuff the Punk.

[Lola Blanc]

Snuff the Punk.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Okay. Snuff the Punk is the first album that POD ever put out. It was like an ep. And the. I remember the original album art, which is, like, kind of hard to find, is like an angel holding a gun, like, and pointing it at a demon, like, in like a. Like a half. Not Wilson kind of situation.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Fucking rad, right? Isn't that cool?

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that is sick. I was. I had an album title that I wanted to use for my new album, and I looked it up to see if anyone had it, and POD just released an album with that title, so.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I can't use it.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

What is it?

[Lola Blanc]

Lies We Tell Ourselves.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, that's. That's very cool. I haven't listened to a new POD album in probably a very long time.

[Lola Blanc]

You don't need to.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Okay. But I did drive by myself to San Diego three years ago to see them live for the first time, because I was like, I just need to full circle. I need to see them. I'd never seen them perform live.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Absolutely.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I drove by myself to the House of Blues. I asked so many people to come with me. I was like, I'll buy your ticket. I don't want to go to this alone.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Let us guess.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And everyone was like, no, thanks.

[Lola Blanc]

I would have gone.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I was like, okay, I guess I'll go by myself. And I went and, like, they played the hits and I was like, great. Got that out of my system and sayonara.

[Lola Blanc]

I was out of it more. I mean, no. Hate to pod. I don't know. Christian. That's fine.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. It has, like, a nostalgia factor.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

But, like, that was. That was sort of, like, all I knew as far as, like, pop culture. And, like, my community was, like, all based in this church. Like, our friends, all of our, like, family friends. Like, it was all based in this church. Like, I had some neighbor friends and friends from school, but, like, it was mostly like this community, you know, except for us all living on a compound. Like, it was just this insular group that, you know, kind of fed into each other. And, like, people would leave, and it was very young at the time. I didn't really sort of pick up on this until way later. But, like, people would leave the church, and they would essentially be, like, completely ostracized, you know, And I didn't experience that until much later in life. But, like, I remember at the time being like, oh, the so and so's have left the church. That's sad. Like, but we'll still see them, right? Wrong. Like, we never see them again. It was like they died.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. When did you guys transition from Church one into Kingdom Life Ministries?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

So we left Baltimore for North Carolina in 2002. The summer of 2002, we moved to Richlands, North Carolina, which is bum fuck nowhere town of. I think the last time I checked the population as of, like, 2022, it was, like, 1600 people.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

So I think at the time, it was, like, probably like, 1100. It's near a bigger city. It's near Jacksonville, North Carolina, where Camp Lejeune is, which is, like, the largest marine base. So there's a lot of people there. But, like, in my, like, town, like, where I went to high school, very teeny tiny. That was when we shifted to, well, what was called at the time? Praise Tabernacle. It was called Praise Tabernacle at the time.

[Lola Blanc]

It's really amazing how many people who grew up in the evangelical community were at just tons of different churches with all these different names and the differences. It's just minutiae what the differences are. I cannot keep track. Like, I. I can't either.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And I was in it. Yeah, Like. Like, if you asked me, like, what the impetus for calling the church Praise Tabernacle was, I don't know that I could tell you. Like, I. I, like, I'd have to, like, really stretch to try and figure out why it was called that. I mean, I knew why they changed the name to Kingdom Life Ministries, and it was because after you know, the founder of the church, Dr. Kelly Varner, passed in 2009. My dad sort of was like, it's time for rebrand. Like, let's shake things up. You know, it's sort of like a new not regime, but like, you know, a new.

[Lola Blanc]

A new era.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, a new era. Yeah, yeah. He was in his kingdom life era. And that felt more attuned to sort of what the mission I guess overall was of the church, which was sort of like this higher elevation of living, living a kingdom life. There were these sort of these almost like sections of higher learning that they would call the lower room, the middle room and the upper room, which is I believe pulled from the New Testament where after Jesus dies, it's okay. Yeah. After Jesus dies, the apostles are like communing in a room, literally like in an upstairs room. This is the story that I might be butchering. And this is when they like feel the Holy Spirit for the first time. And so like this is the story in the Bible that talks about speaking in tongues, which is, you know, basically like when you have no other words to describe what you're trying to communicate to God. It's just sort of like this mumbo jumbo, like made up language, you know. And like the bit is like he's coming. He coming on a Honda, leaving on a Hyundai. Like that's. The like bit is like, oh, if you don't know what you're saying, just keep saying that over and over again and it'll.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I don't get that. If you're coming in a Honda, it's.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Just like, it's just like an onomatopoeia kind of sounding ass word.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. So I grew up doing auctioneering.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Kind of similar.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And she was a ven.

[Lola Blanc]

And ventriloquism.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

A ventriloquism.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So I went to like auctioneer school, which I say in quotation marks because it was a weekend seminar. It was not a school. But my mom and I went like a camp. Yeah. But it was my mom and 9 year old me and like 25 grown ass cowboys and amazing. But I was just thinking about it the other day because my friends were asking about it and auctioneering is very similar. You just say who to Woody, Go who to bid dollar now.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Can you still do it now? Like if you tried.

[Lola Blanc]

I basically just have like a 5 second snippet memorized because I don't really remember how to do it. Yeah, I'm. If I would have been five would go five, five, nine, five, not five. Who now 10 would be 10. I would go 10. Anybody?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

10?

[Lola Blanc]

10. Not 10. Now 15. Okay. That's all I got.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, that's basically speaking in tongues.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do it.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Is the speaking in tongues when I.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Was little, that gave me chills hearing that.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Okay, really?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

That was so.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I used to do that when I was little all of the time. And the two by twos, you're not allowed to speak in tongues. Like, that is one of the biggest sins you can commit. And my mom would be like, shut up.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Why was it like, the devil?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I don't know. There's some verse in the Bible that says, like, you should stop speaking in Dutch.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

What?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

The Bible just, like, says so many different things.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It's so hypocritical.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

So. Yeah, but it was, like, the one thing I was kind of good at and just came naturally to me. And I was like, just let me freaking speak in tongues.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

This is my one thing.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Like, I've got it down.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I would have been a rock star.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's a different question. I know.

[Lola Blanc]

My dad and I would pretend to speak in another language just to, like, with my friends.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, that's fun.

[Lola Blanc]

So it was basically speaking in tongues, kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

You know, what's the. It's like pig Latin. Kind of sounds like pig Latin.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, whatever.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Exactly.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And to you as well.

[Lola Blanc]

Since 2017, Prose has transformed traditional hair care with custom formulas personalized to 85 plus unique factors. Everything from your hair density and porosity to where you work out, even the pollution where you live. All to determine exactly what your hair needs to thrive. I actually just got out of the shower, and I was using my Prose conditioner, which makes my hair so silky soft, and it smells so good. They go above and beyond to create a unique blend of naturally powerful and proven effective, clean ingredients carefully picked just for you. From over 185 options from millions of possible formulas, only one is uniquely yours. And your Prose is not only made to order just for you, it also changes just like you. Prose will address any new concerns, adjust your formulas with the seasons, and learn from your feedback for better hair with every order, discover the custom difference and see your healthiest hair in just four weeks. All backed by clinical studies, 500,000 five star product reviews, and the prose. If you don't love your first order, it's on them. Prose is so confident that you'll love your results that they're offering an exclusive trial offer. 50% off your first hair care subscription order at Prose.com Trust that's P-R-O-S-E.com Trust for your free consultation and 50% off your custom routine. Prose.com Trust.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let'S be real Life happens, kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric cover let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lenovo Ad Speaker]

Are you shopping for a new laptop while still trying to keep up with technology and AI? Talk about feeling burnt out. But no more. Lenovo.com makes it easier than ever to find the perfect PC. In fact, we'll break it down for you. Step 1 Shop our lineup of AI PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Because why deal with downloading new software when you can buy a smarter PC that already comes with all of the AI features and tools? Step 2 Find the one that fits your passion. Whether you're a creative genius, a research scientist, a hardcore gamer, or a future CEO, no dream is too big. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, you can keep up with your ideas as well as any challenges you may face. Step 3 add to cart and purchase. Oh if you're a college student or a teacher, make an education account through us and get 5% off your whole order. Shop now at lenovo.com A Better Future is waiting and it needs you.

[Caleb Ward]

It's the ultimate true crime getaway, but plot twist it's at sea. Don't miss Virgin Voyages True Crime Podcast Voyage A five night kid free Caribbean cruise on a luxurious award winning Virgin Voyages ship book [e-mail] truecrime.

[Lola Blanc]

Sorry, so speaking in tongues was in the so that was.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah that was was in Baltimore as well as North Carolina. But like just to kind of like take a step back to like Belvedere and Baltimore sort of how we ended up in North Carolina was Basically, my dad had started to kind of feel like, you know, they weren't doing enough. Like, there was something higher to sort of access and, like, speaking in tongues and, you know, and praise and worship and, like, loud and gregarious and not just like this, like, sorrow and woe and, like, we're so bad and we're sinners. Like. Like, there was more to it than that. So, like, there was. There was, like, there were honest intentions in it, I think, as far as, like, we could be doing more, and we don't need to be like, these, like, downtrodden. Everything is bad and you're so awful. Like, like, form of Christianity. Yeah, right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Like, what's the profile on your dad?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like. Like, what's his whole. What's his deal?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, like, what's his character?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, my dad is from North. Not from North Carolina. My dad's from Florida, from Winter Park, Florida. He did not grow up very religious. And then he was in the army, and then he was in the Navy, and then he was in the Air Force.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, wow.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I think in that order, I think principal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Military.

[Lola Blanc]

I've never heard of that.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And he didn't retire. You know, he did his tenure, like, the years that he had signed up for, and then he left. And he talks about how when he left, he didn't really have, like, any direction. There was, like, a Navy captain who brought him to a church service one night, and, you know, and that just sort of changed his life from there. He went to Bible college. That's where he met my mom. And they got married. And then nine years later, they had me, and they ended up in Baltimore, taking over this church because he was part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is basically like a. Like. Like, if you were, like, playing in, like, the minor leagues, like, in baseball, like, you, like, play for, like, the Tulsa Drillers, which is, like a minor league for the Dodgers. Like, okay. You get called up to the Dodgers. Like, he was in Mississippi and he was in Montana. He got called up to take care of this church in Baltimore.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's what I feel. He seems very charming from what I've seen him on the.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

He's a really good guy.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, he seems like I would trust.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think that the military informed his, like, being drawn to religion, like, kind of with the structure and hierarchy?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

That's interesting. I never. I've never thought about it like that, actually. But that makes a lot of sense, like, sort of having a system in place. But it's so interesting because, like, he kind of broke away from that and became a little more, like, freestyle, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

So that's really interesting. I never thought about it like that.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I guess. Yeah. What you're describing sounds more. Not chaotic, but, like, expressive, I guess.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

But he started out like you said. I mean, he did start out more regimented.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And then, you know, kind of saw.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

There was something more.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So tell us about how, like, how did he actually become the pastor? It was, like, in North Carolina. Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. So that's an interesting story. So, basically, in 2002, Dr. Varner invited my dad to come down to Richlands, North Carolina, and start a school, essentially for pastors. Like, it would be sort of like a quarterly conference of sorts, where pastors, sort of within this sort of, like, offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of Christianity being like Kingdom Ministry, would come in and learn from him and learn from Dr. Varner about various teachings and just really digging into the granular. Granular parts of the Bible. Stuff that was taught to us on Sundays and would just go completely over my head because it was a collegiate level of learning. It wasn't like, here's a simple Bible story. Do unto others, and then, see you next week. It was like. Like, let's talk about what, like, Ezekiel means when he says this one word, and this is the original Latin or this is the original Greek, and, like, just stuff that was so over my head at the time. So he was brought down to run this school. We had been there, I think, like, six months at the time. And the hierarchy of the church was. There was Dr. Varner, there was another pastor. I think his last. I think it was pastor. Pastor Keating, I think. And then my dad was running this church, so sort of like that hierarchy.

[Lola Blanc]

And Dr. Varner is the leader of the whole group.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, he's like, like the CEO, and then the pastor is kind of like the president. And then my dad was, like, you know, running a department kind of.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right, right. And how big was the total group, would you say?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I think at the time, it's probably, like, around a hundred people. Oh, yeah. Small. Very small. Like, yeah, maybe. Maybe 100 people. And I think we had been in North Carolina maybe, like, six months at the time, maybe a little longer. When the pastor just, like, left, like, we were given, like, no story. Like, he's gone.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Well, he probably did something bad, right?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Probably.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I. I mean, I have to assume, like, in some capacity. Like, he just, like, it was like, overnight he's gone. He's out of here.

[Lola Blanc]

So interesting. We've had two guests on the show who were pastors and had a, like, sexual indiscretion of some kind and were, like, overnight, just gone. So I went there.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

There was a separate incident, not. Not with this pastor, but with the church. Like, accountant or. Or secre. Not secretary, but, like, who would run the money for a church.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I love gossip so much that I'm, like, drooling to find out what this is.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

What this is. This was, like, this is the first year. This is all stuff that happened, like, the first year we've been there.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like, the drama, like, the accountant, or I can't remember exactly what his title was, just, like, also gone in the night. And we're all like, what happened? And it was. He was stealing. He had been stealing from the church for, like, years.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, for, like, years of legitimate. Legitimate.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. But, like, the. Like, the pastors were like, we're not seeking legal action. Like, you have to go though. Like, and that's.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And we can come back to that. But, like, not seeking legal action. We come back to a lot in this podcast because it's like, we'll take care of it in God's family, and the crimes can get bigger and bigger and bigger, and it's a disaster.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It is a little, like, let's, like, not embarrass ourselves. Like, that is kind of, like, the way it felt at the time, because I was like. Like, 11 and, like, being. And I was getting this information. Like, I feel like I had to grow up very fast in a lot of ways because of sort of, like, being in this church and, like, being such a focal point of the community. This is a small town. A lot of churches in this small town, though. And, like, there was a Baptist church, There's a Lutheran church, There's a Methodist church. There's another Baptist church. There's a smaller Pentecostal church. There was our church, like. Like, and, like, being one of several pastors. Kids, like, kind of had a bit of a spotlight on me at times. But, like, yeah, there was just all this sort of, like, chaos happening, like, the first year that we were there. And so my dad, who did not want to come and be the pastor of this church initially, was like, I'm not coming to do this. I'm coming to run this school, like, less than a year in, is now the pastor of the church and then remain there for until 2019.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And I imagine you have, like, a very window into the. Going behind the scenes from just kind of overhearing things Even that.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, in a big way. And my parents were. They were very honest. They were very open and honest with me about what was going on, to a degree of which, like, I think back on now, and I'm like, I didn't need to know all of this stuff, you know, and, like, to their credit, what I will say to my parents, credit it, like, later in life, like, my dad has apologized to me for things of, like, things that he said or, you know, things that they sort of let me in on that, like, I just didn't need to know as like, a teenager who was like. Like, discovering girls and, like, learning to play instruments and skateboarding. Like, I just didn't need to, like.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Wasn't my responsibility, you know, it did. I did feel very responsible for things because I was a part of this family.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Part of this church.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I have to imagine being a pastor's kid.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And an only child.

[Lola Blanc]

And an only child. Oh, my God. That's so much pressure. You have to be the good boy all the time, I imagine.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to know more about Dr. Varner, because he had prophecies.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, yeah. That was a big part of a regular, like, Sunday service. Like, if Dr. Varner was. Was there because sometimes he was traveling.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm sorry, just to clarify.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

When we say doctor, this is not medical. Doctor.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

No, no, no, no, no. Like a doctor of theology. Doctorate in theology.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like, my dad is technically a reverend, but he doesn't call, like, he doesn't. He never had people call him reverend.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like, he was always just like, Pastor Ord. Yeah. So this. I mean, this is a big part of, like, a. Like, a regular Sunday service. So we'd start at, like, 10:00am with, like, opening, like, notes. And this is what's going on, like, this week. And, you know, like, because we do a lot of stuff in the community, things like that. Like, our youth group had Friday night hang time.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, lucky you. A Friday night hang time. Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. Exactly what I wanted to do. Come back to the church on Friday night, and then we would do praise and worship, which I played drums. This is how I learned how to play drums in the church band. And we would do, like, a couple of songs and, like, however the spirit sort of moved, like, sometimes we'd never even get to, like, the actual stop sermon. Yeah, no, like, fairly often. Like, it would just. We just end up in praise and worship for, like, two hours with people, like, grabbing the mic, being like, I've got a word from the Lord, or, like, I'M hearing something. Or, like, oftentimes there was another sort of, like, associate pastor in the church that would, like, have me do, like, drum. I'm not kidding. Would have me do drum solos as, like, a ministry. Oh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. Like a sound bath.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

Like a really loud Jesus sound bath. Yeah.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. With a lot of, like, Toms involved. But so oftentimes, like, Dr. Varner would come up and he was. Would he. He also played the saxophone, and so he would come. Like, sometimes he'd do, like, a saxophone solo or, like, he'd come and sing prophecies to people.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Honestly, this church sounds great.

[Lola Blanc]

It sounds fun, but sing prophecies.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. Yeah. That was a big part of you.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Give us an example of this.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Okay. The one that has stuck with me and, like, essentially just sort of haunted me for the better part of. Oh, my God. How long ago? Almost 20 years now, I guess. So in 2009, before he passed, like, two or three months before he passed, there was one morning, it was the. Oh, it was the graduation service. That was always a big deal, like, for, like, the high school graduates who were getting ready to graduate. And I was getting ready to graduate. Me and a couple others. And in the service, like, he came to me and sang a prophecy that was verbatim. You think you're just going to school. Your life has always been under my rule. The next seven years, I'll give you all you need.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And so this is like, you think your life is just going to school. You're actually under my rule.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, Fully.

[Lola Blanc]

I can do the last one.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I forgot it.

[Lola Blanc]

Seven years.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

The next seven years, I'll give you all you need.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

The next seven years will give you all you need.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Fairly close. He had a way deeper voice, but I was pretty good.

[Lola Blanc]

Seven years will give you all you need.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yes. That was all.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And you're like, what?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

In my mind, I'm like, awesome. Fuck, yeah. I'm set by 2016. Awesome. That stuck with me for a really, really long time. Duh.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, what did you think that that meant?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

No fucking idea. I wasn't even 18 at the time. I didn't know.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I have a man saying that to me.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I'd be like, you'd be like, sir, this is a Wendy's. Yeah.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, it's nice. It does.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It does. Yes, it does. In theory. You're like, wow, that's great. But, like, that's the dangerous part of some of this stuff is, like, some of these, like, quote, prophetic words would be like, do this. Go Here, leave this, marry this person, do this, have this child.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, what's that predicament telling people what to do with their lives as.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like, this is the word from the Lord. I'm tapped into a source. I have this, like, link from here to here. And this is a word from the Lord. And you're so enraptured in it to the point where you're like, okay, well, that's gotta be it. So, like, for seven years, I, like, even after I had left the church and, like, walked away from religion entirely, that that message stuck with me. It still sticks with me to this day where I'm like, well, did I. Well, like, what did I. What happened in 2016? Like, what did I do here? What did I do there? Like, that, like, haunted me for a really long time.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, you said that in these serv. Like, what is it? Praise and worship. In praise and worship, like, everyone. People would just kind of grab the mic. So, like, would that be that? Did that mean, like, anyone could have a prophecy?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, pretty much. Like, there wasn't much of a filter.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, my gosh. This could go wrong in a way.

[Lola Blanc]

This could go away.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

This could go so wrong.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, in a way, it's, like, more equitable because in most cults, the prophet's the only one who can have the prophecy or the leader and that, you know, people get drunk on that power on this one. Like, what if people had two conflicting prophecies at the same time? What would happen?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, that happened all the time.

[Lola Blanc]

It did.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, that would happen all the time. Like, people would come up and say something very specific. Oh, my God. I just remembered one. It was Super Bowl Sunday, and the Carolina Panthers were in the Super Bowl. So whatever year that was, I don't remember. And Dr. Vonner was preaching that day. And, like, he. This is so burned in my brain. He could feel, like, the energy sort of, like, shifting in the room. Like, he was kind of, like, losing people. They weren't paying attention because it's Super Bowl Sunday. You want to get home and get your stuff prepped and, like, having a party, yada, yada, yada. And he just went, panther's gonna win by 14. Then they lost. So it was like, man, is all of this bullshit? Is he just saying this stuff to say this stuff?

[Lola Blanc]

Did you, like, how old were you?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Ish. Oh, that. I would have been. I was a teenager, like, probably, like, 14. Did you believe in him for, like, a long time? Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you believe in him when he said that. And was that something that put a crack in your faith?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

That stuff like that was when was where I really started to kind of question things. I remember very distinctly when I was probably 15. I was probably, like, 15 or 16. I asked my dad. I asked my dad if I could go to First Baptist Church, which was literally across the street. I wanted to go there for a little while because I think I had, like, a crush on, like.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Of course that's why you wanted to go there.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I think it was one of the Smith twins.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, my God. My mom is a Smith twin.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, was it her? It might have been her.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's.

[Lola Blanc]

Your mom is a Smith twin.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Wait, she's a twin and her last name is Smith?

[Lola Blanc]

Is she identical?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Your mom's an identical twin?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know that.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah. And their last name was Smith.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Anyway, this was not your mom.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

This was not my mom. Maybe it was. It wasn't, because she was not there. Go on.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a sign from God is what it is.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Exactly. I wanted to go to this church because, like, I think one of the Smith twins went there. And, like, I was obsessed. And I remember asking my dad. I was like, dad, could I go to this church? And he has since apologized for this. So to preface that, he said verbatim, if you go to another church, I'll have to quit my job. Job.

[Lola Blanc]

Whoa.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And I remember being like, why? And he said, because it will show that I am not the leader of my family, that I. I'm gonna butcher what he said. Exactly. But he was like, I. I don't have control. Sort of over, you know, over. Over my own house. Like, there's a break in my house. And that, like, shook me to my core. So I must have been younger. It was, like, 13 or 14 probably at the time.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

It shook you how?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I was like, oh, my God. Like, that's so. You're right. This is so important. Like, I'm a crucial part of this. Like, I'm the chosen one.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Or whatever. It really, like, solidified in me just sort of this. This fear that, you know, any decision I made would affect our family life as a whole.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. Which is a really scary thing to like. To think about.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

You know, I. I always think about the difference between people who grew up with no religion and people who grew up with religion, because these, like, very intense prophecies and responsibilities are putting. Are being put on you that other people don't understand at all. It's like living in Game of Thrones versus just living, right. A completely different world.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

This is something I deal with. My wife, who grew up, like, with zero religion. I think she went to church like, like two times in her life. And so, like, trying to explain this to her is like. It's taken a long time to like, explain what this is or like, show her clips or show her music videos of stuff I used to watch or like. Like. Cause it's a whole other world. But to me, I was like, everybody's like this, right? Which is sort of inherent in like a cult mentality, is like, oh, this is what everybody should think. And this is the way it should be.

[Caleb Ward]

132 rooms. 157 suspects. One dead body. One wildly eccentric detective. One disastrous state dinner. And at the center of it all, a case unlike any other. The new Netflix series the Residents is a screwball whodunit. Set in the White House from Shondaland. The series features an all star cast led by Uzo Aduba as Cordelia Kopp, the most sought after detective in the world. Watch the residents March 20 only on Netflix.

[Lola Blanc]

So, so, okay, Dr. Varner, did he have a direct line to God more than other people, though, despite that other people could have prophecies.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah, that's certainly what it seemed like. I mean, you know, he founded this church. He was like a mainstay, starting in like West Virginia and then moving down to North Carolina for the better part of like 30 years. You know, that church had praise tabernacle, had been there for. Since the 80s, I think. I think it was established in the 80s. And so, you know, and like, his kids still kind of like run his ministry because he wrote a lot of books and, you know, he had a lot of tapes and CDs and DVDs and things like that. And so his family kind of sort of runs that. What would you call it, like, mini empire, like an archive or. Yeah, of some sort. You know, and people still, like, quote him a lot and, you know, use his books. So, yeah, there was definitely something about the way that he would talk about his communication with God that seemed like he was way more connected. You know, it was definitely, like, implied that what he said went. Because he had this, you know, direct source, this direct line, and he would.

[Lola Blanc]

Tell people what to do with, like, big life decisions and stuff.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

He would aggressively advise. I think that's maybe the way that I would put it to the point that, like, I went to. I mean, I went to a Christian university for the first semester of college because, like, I had been Kind of like dollying back and forth between like, two places to go. And I ended up going to this. This church or not this church, sorry, this university in Lakeland called Southeastern University, which is a Assemblies of God university, which is another denomination, because he had, like, advised me to do that. You know, it was like a major life decision and I was horribly depressed and I dropped out after a semester and, like, was brutal. I, like, tried to take my own life at that time. It's a thing I'm very open about. I talk about, like, very publicly. It's not something that I've. I've hidden. It's. But like. Because I was really struggling with, like, who I was because I'd been so ingrained in this space and it was the first time I'd like, broken out and was like, got to like, sort of experience the world for myself. But. But yeah, he was very strong willed. I mean, he was very, like, performative. You know, like, he was really charismatic. Like, even if he didn't really know what he was talking about or, you know, understood the references, like, I mean, he had this, like, dense knowledge of the Bible to the point where, like, he could pull scripture and he could pull the original Greek and what it meant and how it translated in the various different, you know, interpretations of the Bible. Because there's, there's hundreds. There's King James, New International. There's a very popular one in the early 2000s called the Message, which was basically somebody essentially threw the Bible into ChatGPT and was like, talk to me like, you're like a cool youth pastor.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, he's interesting. I mean, I wouldn't say he sounds like a traditional cult leader or anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

But I, I find it's almost like a. There's still a special knowledge thing going on that's not necessarily like he is the literal prophet, but like, he is so educated.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And he knows so much more than.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

You do about the Bible talking to him.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's pretty intense.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Although was God. God talked to everyone.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. But like, I guess he had more of like a direct line.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

You guys were more on like a party line.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Like, like we were playing like telephone, essentially.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Right. So what were his main beliefs?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Do you mean, like, in terms of.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, what he was saying?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, like what, what, what was his.

[Lola Blanc]

What were the church's.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Beliefs.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Well, it was based in like, a kingdom mentality.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, that's cool.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

It was essentially like, based in a kingdom mentality wherein I had no Idea what that means.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I know, I know, I know. But it sounds cool.

[Lola Blanc]

It does.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

We're in a kingdom wherein there is, like, this sort of, like, upper echelon. Like, sort of. Again, I was talking about, like, the lower middle and the upper room being like this. Like, you know, removing the veil between, like, yourself and God. Finding this, like. It was kind of about, like, finding your own direct line. So there was sort of this, like, power instilled in people, too. Like. Like, you could be like me. You could be like me, which is like. Like a very popular thing in terms of a cult mentality of, you could be just like me. If you worked hard enough and if you studied hard enough and if you allowed yourself to sort of commune with Christ the way that I do, you would be, as in tuned.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

But I imagine that sets up that kind of moving goalpost that we always see where you're like, I'm not hearing God's voice in my head. So this is. I must be.

[Lola Blanc]

What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

What's wrong with me? Why? Why?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was something that I struggle with a lot because, like, I just. I felt like I really started to kind of, like, see the cracks early on and start to see the seams to where I was like, oh, this? I, like, don't buy this. Because it seems like they're constantly kind of, like, shifting what that actually means. And I didn't fully understand what they were talking about. When I say, like, every church service, like, kind of felt like a collegiate level, like a master's level collegiate course on theology, like, that's what I mean. Like, I. It would. I would struggle to, like, like, give you, like, an example of, like, what a standard church service was like, because it was so dense and it was so focused on, like, the Old Testament and interpretation. But that was his way of sort of explaining that, you know, this is how I commune, and this is how I have gained this understanding, this ability to communicate with God. The way that I do is because of the knowledge that I have.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. And I think often with this kind of group, the point is sort of, whether consciously or not, to confuse the congregation. Because if you have all of the answers and it's confusing, then they will defer to you for answers and guidance and authority.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Yeah. And I mean, the level to which I felt like I was like, am I not getting it? Is something wrong with me? Kind of going back to what you were saying, like, really came to a head when we would have These, like, we would have these conferences. We'd have, like, you know, like, spring and summer conference. Like, summer conference was like a really big. Was a really big deal because these other churches that were sort of a part of this, like, unofficial denomination of, like, Kingdom Church, Kingdom Living, Kingdom Life would all congregate. These are churches sort of in, like, Virginia, South Carolina, other parts of North Carolina that would all sort of. In the Southeast, would sort of converge on our church in the summer for like a. Like Coachella of, you know, pastors in the Southeast region.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Honestly, that sounds fun.

[Lola Blanc]

You told. You told me a story about. Oh, yeah, please, please relay some of the activities that would happen.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Okay. So summer conference was like. I say it was like a. It was like a festival, essentially. Like, all these different churches would come into town. It'd be like, you know, 300 people, like, packed into the church. Church. And all these different pastors would come, and it would be like Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday night, Sunday morning. Sometimes a Sunday night. And so what is that? There was, like, seven services, like, all in a row. And, like, we would. There'd be a different pastor every night. And Friday night was like, the get down night. Like, shit's gonna pop off. It's Friday night. Everything's gonna happen. Like, this is the big night night. Same with every other, you know, service. We'd start with, like, praise and worship, and then there'd be, you know, a sermon. But Friday night, rarely did we ever get to the sermon because it was just like, everybody's locked in. There's banners and ribbons flying around. Like, the music's going, like. And people are prophesying, well, one night. And this also just so happened to be the night that we had new neighbors move in across the street from us. Yeah. And invited them to come that night. Never forget this. During praise and worship, I'm playing drums. And so I'm like, in, like, a drum cage in the corner of the room, and I can just like, see everything. Like, the church was essentially built like a. Like a rectangle.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Okay.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

And I was in one of the corners, and you could just see everything. So at a bird's eye view, this one pastor who was kind of the youth pastor who would come in, you know, from. I think he was based in West Virginia or Virginia. He comes over to my dad, who is now the pastor of the church at the time, and, you know, Dr. Varner's obviously there as well. Everybody's in. You know, it's like the Avengers of, you know, of pastors this guy comes up to my dad, and he's like, the Lord has told me to do something. And he's like, what? He's like, the Lord told me to ride my motorcycle through the church, and they whipped open the doors on both ends, and he rode his motorcycle through the church like he was Ryan Gosling at the beginning of Place beyond the Pines. Just zipping through and everybody losing their shit. This is amazing. Oh, my God. God is great. This is so wonderful. And I'm like, we're never gonna see these neighbors again. I'm just, like, in a panic of just, like, what's happening?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

What did their faces look like?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I mean, I'm playing drums, so, like, I'm like, I gotta. I got to stay in time. Like, what's hap? But I'm just like, what's happening? Because, like, I had headphones on so I could hear everything. I could hear microphones, and, like, they're all speaking in tongues and just.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

I think I would use this for so much evil. If I were in this, I think I'd be like, God wants me to get a bunch of toys and you should make out with me. That is what Scott's telling me.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Oh, my God. I really didn't utilize this the way that I probably should have. That abuse of power. I didn't even think about that.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Oh, my God.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

The amount of, like, Max Steel and GI Joe toys I could have had.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Make outs. Wow.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

First see myself doing that. Did anybody ever kind of, like, ask for things that were, I don't know, like a Christmas wish list?

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

I think I remember. I think I remember, like. Because again, like, it was sort of a free for all a lot of times. So, like, you know, you come and talk to Pastor Ward, and, like, he'll give you the mic. You know, he. Like, my dad was a lot better about, like. Like using some discretion of giving the microphone to just about everybody. There was one person in our church who, like, would. Would really just kind of go off the rails and just start, like, kind of weeping. There was a lot of, like, tears and emotion. Cause, like, it's a very. Like. It's a heightened state, you know, I do remember, like, I think, like, a kid taking the mic or something and, like, making something up about, like, his, like, baseball game or something. Like, I'm gonna hit a home run. Like, the Lords told me, I'm gonna hit a home run. Yeah. Which probably didn't happen when the Panthers didn't win the super bowl. So.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Big thanks to Caleb for joining us. And we love you, Caleb. We do love you, Caleb. Megan? Yes. If you were Caleb's age in the early 2000s and you came across this church.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And this community and culture, what do you think? Would you join?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Yeah, I think I would really like it. As we identified in the episode, I love speaking in tongues. I love a good Christian Disney World Land experience. Anything. Youth groupie is super fun in my opinion. So, yeah, I'm gone. I'm in. What about you?

[Lola Blanc]

I think it, I think it would depend on the context going in because, you know, like, you growing up, church was very solemn and like, quiet and like, no one was doing anything loud at all boring. So when I like, would see that happening in other people's churches, I'd be kind of like, freaked out. So I don't know that I would join.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

But, but if I were just a regular girl and saw people doing stuff that was exciting, like, probably, who knows?

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, well, I think that's fair.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And we can't know for for sure either way, but I do see some version of myself in one reality at a Christian Disneyland right now. Bringing it back to the air. All right, big thank you to Caleb for coming on the show. Thank you all for listening. Please go rate us 5 stars. Go buy a T shirt. Have some fun with it.

[Lola Blanc]

Bit ly trustmerch.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

That's right. And as always, remember to follow your gut.

[Lola Blanc]

Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Dellamitor with special.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

Thanks to Stacy Pera.

[Lola Blanc]

And our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

You can find us on Instagram, USTME podcast, Twitter, USMEcultpod or on TikTok USTMEcultpodcast.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm Ooh Lalola on Instagram and Olalola on Twitter.

[Virgin Voyages Ad Speaker]

And I am Megan Elizabeth 11 on Instagram and Babraham Hicks on Twitter.

[Lola Blanc]

Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

[LifeLock Ad Speaker]

You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Theft.

[LifeLock Ad Speaker]

You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEART or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off.

[Lola Blanc]

Terms apply every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can help you knock out the rest of it. Belvita Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt.

[Lola Blanc]

Yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Give you the perfect mid morning refuel.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Best part?

[Lola Blanc]

They both taste great so make the most out of your morning with a bite of Velveeta.

[Trust Me Ad Speaker]

Pick up a pack of Velveeta at.

[Lola Blanc]

Your local store today.

[Caleb Ward]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.