Carol Merchasin - The Cult Assassin: Suing High-Control Groups

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Episode: Carol Merchasin - The Cult Assassin: Suing High-Control Groups
Release Date: August 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Trust Me, hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth delve deep into the intricate world of high-control cults and the legal battles surrounding them. Their guest, Carol Murphy Murchison, a renowned lawyer affectionately dubbed the "Cult Assassin," shares her journey of combating abusive high-control groups through litigation. Carol's expertise offers listeners a rare glimpse into the legal strategies employed to hold these manipulative organizations accountable.

Carol's Journey to Becoming the "Cult Assassin"

Carol Murphy Murchison's transformative path began with her background in employment law, where she specialized in investigating sexual misconduct in the workplace. After retiring from her initial legal career, Carol was approached by a woman alleging widespread sexual assault within a Buddhist community in Canada. Skeptical at first, Carol was driven by a sense of justice to investigate these claims despite her reservations about a compassionate religion harboring such abuse.

Carol Murphy Murchison [03:30]: "She'll talk to us about why human trafficking is more subtle than we typically imagine. How the law in the US is behind on legally recognizing coercion that happens to an adult or doesn't involve immediate physical violence."

As Carol delved deeper, she uncovered numerous victims and sustained media coverage, leading her to realize that these organizations were systematically evading responsibility for their actions. This revelation ignited her dedication to using legal avenues to fight against such groups, ultimately earning her the moniker "Cult Assassin."

Legal Challenges in Suing High-Control Groups

Carol elucidates the complexities involved in bringing legal action against high-control groups. These organizations often feature charismatic leaders who wield significant power, making it difficult for victims to speak out. The legal system, which traditionally handles clear-cut cases of violence and exploitation, struggles with the nuanced forms of coercion prevalent in cults.

Carol Murphy Murchison [03:03]: "She'll talk to us about why human trafficking is more subtle than we typically imagine... how cults threaten to sue as a weapon to silence people who speak out about them."

One of the primary legal tools Carol utilizes is the Federal Human Trafficking Act, which addresses coercion and manipulation—common tactics used by cults to control their members. By framing their actions within this legal context, Carol aims to bypass traditional defenses that high-control groups might employ.

Understanding Coercion and Its Legal Implications

A significant focus of the discussion centers on the concept of coercion. Carol explains that coercion undermines genuine consent, making many actions within cults actionable under the law.

Carol Murphy Murchison [44:54]: "That's coercion...we have the Federal Trafficking Act, which does have an element that recognizes that coercion and fraud, I would say that they negate consent."

Using the BITE Model (Behavior control, Information control, Thought control, Emotional control) by Steve Hassan, Carol and her team assess and present evidence of coercive tactics to juries. This model helps illustrate the psychological manipulation that detracts from the victim's ability to freely consent.

Carol Murphy Murchison [46:36]: "We have to introduce evidence of all those elements of coercion so that a jury can understand exactly... they were being coerced."

Tactics of Cults to Suppress Dissent: Defamation Lawsuits

High-control groups often retaliate against critics by threatening defamation lawsuits, aiming to intimidate and silence those who speak out.

Carol Murphy Murchison [48:22]: "All the time...if you say anything about a cult leader, we're going to sue you for defamation."

Carol highlights the challenges victims face when threatened with lawsuits, including the financial and emotional burdens of legal defense. However, she points out the existence of anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) laws in states like California and New York, which protect individuals from frivolous lawsuits aimed at suppressing free speech.

Carol Murphy Murchison [50:43]: "You might be able to find a lawyer who will do it pro bono...they have to pay a lawyer and they have to put people under oath."

Support and Resources for Survivors

Recognizing the daunting nature of legal battles, Carol offers guidance and resources for survivors seeking assistance:

1. BITE Model Framework: To identify and document coercive tactics.
2. Therapeutic Support: Recommending therapists specialized in trauma and cult recovery, such as Dan Shaw and Rachel Bernstein.
3. Legal Assistance: Encouraging survivors to seek out pro bono legal help through state bar associations and human rights organizations.

Carol Murphy Murchison [70:40]: "If you have a really strong case to defend against defamation, you would most likely qualify to have your legal fees paid, in which case you might be able to find a lawyer who will."

Dealing with Enablers Within Organizations

A significant hurdle in dismantling high-control groups is managing enablers—members who, often unconsciously, support the oppressive dynamics of the organization. Carol advises maintaining contact without engaging in arguments, emphasizing that enabling behavior stems from deeply ingrained beliefs rather than malicious intent.

Carol Murphy Murchison [64:29]: "Never ever...maintain contact because maybe someday something will change."

She underscores the importance of setting personal boundaries and recognizing that changing the minds of deeply indoctrinated individuals is often futile.

Recognizing Warning Signs of High-Control Groups

Carol outlines key red flags that indicate the presence of a high-control group:

1. Exclusive Truth Claims: Groups that assert they possess the only valid truth.
2. Suppression of Dissent: Disallowing or manipulating dissenting opinions.
3. Authoritarian Leadership: Charismatic leaders who demand absolute loyalty and control.
4. Manipulative Practices: Techniques like love bombing followed by withdrawal to destabilize members psychologically.

Ryan Reynolds [67:34]: "If you cannot have a dissenting opinion or it is set up and structured in such a way that you feel manipulated into hiding your dissenting opinion."

Recognizing these signs early can empower individuals to avoid falling prey to manipulative groups and seek help if they find themselves entangled.

Conclusion: Empowering Survivors and Enforcing Accountability

Throughout the episode, Carol Murphy Murchison emphasizes the necessity of legal accountability in combating high-control groups. By leveraging existing legal frameworks and continuously advocating for survivors, she aims to dismantle the structures that enable abuse and manipulation.

Carol Murphy Murchison [78:14]: "Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode...remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never, ever Trust Me."

The hosts, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth, commend Carol for her invaluable work and encourage listeners to utilize the resources provided to protect themselves and support others.

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Key Takeaways

• Legal Mechanisms: Utilizing the Federal Human Trafficking Act and anti-SLAPP laws to hold high-control groups accountable.
• Understanding Coercion: Recognizing psychological manipulation as a barrier to genuine consent.
• Support Systems: Accessing specialized legal and therapeutic resources for survivors.
• Warning Signs: Identifying red flags of high-control groups to prevent exploitation.
• Dealing with Enablers: Setting boundaries and maintaining contact without enabling abusive behavior.

Resources Mentioned

• BITE Model by Steve Hassan: [Link or reference if available]
• Therapists: Dan Shaw, Rachel Bernstein
• Legal Firms: McAllister Oliverious (Website)
• Support Organizations: Hartwood Heartwood (Website)

Note: All relevant links and contact information can be found in the show notes.

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened while highlighting crucial quotes and timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Lola Blanc]

This is exactly right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Glenn Washington]

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[Lola Blanc]

I was looking for fun ways to.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Glenn Washington]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Glenn Washington]

See mint mobile.com youm think you know snap judgment. Yes, it's on NPR. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambis, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up.

[Ryan Reynolds]

For welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Glenn Washington.

[Glenn Washington]

Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap. Jud from KQED every Thursday wherever you get your podcast. Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you trust me?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me. This is the truth. The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two Elle woods fans who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And today our guest is Carol Murphy Murchison, a lawyer sometimes referred to as the Cult Assassin because she specializes in suing cults and high control groups for sexual misconduct. She's going to tell us how she started off as an investigator. How her work uncovering abuse in a Buddhist organization that she was initially skeptical about led her down this professional path. Why the differences between various religions and ideologies are actually not that important when it comes to the abuse of power. And how we determine whether abuse is a bad apple problem versus a systemic problem.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yep.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

She'll talk to us about why human trafficking is more subtle than we typically imagine. How the law in the US Is behind on legally recognizing coercion that happens to an adult or doesn't involve immediate physical violence. How cults threaten to sue as a weapon to silence people who speak out about them. And what tools are available if you do get threatened with a defamation lawsuit, which you have been.

[Lola Blanc]

Which I have been.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Congratulations.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. When's it gonna happen again? Can't wait. It's like. What do you call it? Ritual. A thing you pass through. Oh, what's oh, Hazing?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

No, it's a rite of passage.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. I literally said the word pass and I couldn't get it. Okay, okay. Before we get into the legal intricacies of cults, Megan, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with Carol. I want her to live in my closet.

[Lola Blanc]

You want her to live is where I thought that sentence was over. I was like, me, too. Is there a problem? Should I be concerned?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

No, I want her to live in my closet.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And just like that sounds abusive. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

You want to have her in your life?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I want to have her in my life. And she can never leave.

[Lola Blanc]

You're gonna need a new cult assassin to rescue her from you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Indeed.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

My cultiest thing of the week is a conversation that I would be interested in having with her. Actually, I'll have to go in my closet later and see if she's up to talking. Do you remember the guy from San Diego? His name was Matthew Coleman, and he murdered his two children in one of the most horrific cases. He took them down to Mexico. Do you remember this?

[Lola Blanc]

QAnon. It was a QAnon. Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So I was reading that he was actually forcibly put on medication so he could not plead insanity. Lori Valo, who also killed her children in kind of a cultic doomsday psychosis, not being allowed to plead insanity, being very held accountable. And then there's this Ruby, Frankie, like, mommy blogger who's being held to the highest degree of the law. And it just feels like we're kind of going into a world where the law is really cracking down on these types of crimes.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I thought, okay, so this was not about the medication. I got stuck on the medication thing. Okay, so you're just saying that, like, they're not allowing people to plea insanity. I guess since I hadn't really followed any cases like this before, I have no understanding of the history of whether that's changing or not. But yeah, that would be a really good question for Carol.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Maybe we can email her and I hope she answers.

[Lola Blanc]

If she doesn't, we're very sorry to get your hopes up, but those are, to me though, those are pretty clear cut cases because the murder of a child is like, unequivocally, like something that someone's gonna be held responsible for.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

In Ruby's case, she didn't kill them. She abused them a lot. And people are shocked at her sentence. It's pretty maximum. So I. I feel like there's some leaning into holding people accountable. And what worries me about that is, is are people who are under, like.

[Lola Blanc]

Control who are being coerced into their.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Taxes, are they going to be like. It just brings up a lot of difficult questions.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, one of the things we'll talk about in this episode is how that is the one area of the law that has not really been a. Exactly. It's an obvious crime, and I think it's historically been very much prosecuted. And the crimes that maybe haven't gotten as much attention are the ones that are a little more complex, that don't involve children or don't involve violence. So those are some questions we'll get into in this interview, y'.

[Ryan Reynolds]

All.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I can't wait. What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

So, uh.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Oh, and she leaned.

[Lola Blanc]

Single again.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Hey.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, single again.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Why are you sighing like that?

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, this is not what I desired for my future, but this is what has happened in my life. So that means I'm on dating apps again.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

And you know, it happened again. And in fairness, I was like, crashing out post breakup because this was like, pretty immediately after the breakup, I immediately found, like an obvious raging, horrific narcissist.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Perfect.

[Lola Blanc]

And I don't use. Y' all know, I don't throw that word around.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Like you hate that word.

[Lola Blanc]

I really don't like that word. I think people overuse that word and over diagnose. He might not be a narcissist, but I think he has. I think he is fully on the antisocial.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

The rumor is that he's a raging narcissist, so.

[Lola Blanc]

Some kind of personality disorder. And I got the full love bomb. And I was like, I just need attention, I don't care. And I fortunately cut it off pretty quick because I was like, this is a terrible situation.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Just get the love bomb and then dip before it could go into the de valuation.

[Lola Blanc]

It went like.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Cuz I was like, that's brilliant. We should all do that.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. But here's what I noticed happening in my brain.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

What?

[Lola Blanc]

Like I was like, I feel crazy. I feel high. I feel like I'm literally high and then I feel like I'm crashing down and I'm not high anymore and I need the high. And I was like, this is crazy. I don't even like this person. I think he's like cringy as and like if I thought someone else in my life was a sex addict, this person is like next level, like the boss level version, you know, like the final boss type of that. And so I don't even like him. But he was using the techniques of like giving you the attention and the making you feel really good and then withdrawing it and then giving it to you and then withdrawing it. And it worked like a charm. Like a charm. Even though I don't like him is not cool. It's crazy. It's like I'm a mouse, Like I'm a fucking rat in a lab. Like we are. Literally, we are. So this is my, this is my psa. For all of our ladies listening and our fellows, you are not stronger than these manipulation tactics.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Because when we've talked about this before, even when we go in knowing that that's what's happening.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Oh yeah, that does not help.

[Lola Blanc]

It's still. It's like taking heroin and being like, I know I'm good.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah, I know it's going to make me feel good, but I won't do it again.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Fortunately I recognized it and I really, really want a healthy long term relationship. And so I cut it off. But it took me a couple of tries, honestly.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Like, yeah, that's what I was going to hearken to. It's just the only option is to remove yourself completely. And it's difficult and your brain is. It's like. It was like, yeah, your brain is going to want and just like stick back on it and you have to very consciously just rip it off and like, no. And it releases like cortisol or something because you're stressed that you can't get the dopamine yet. So it's like, more stressful than not just feeling good. It's, like, also adding stress. It's so disregulating. Just fucking stay away from them.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I was like, I've known this person for seven days. How could I feel disregulated by them? That's crazy.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's like a mixer to the brain.

[Lola Blanc]

And I was, like, calling him out on his manipulations, and he was admitting to it, and he just literally continued to do the exact same things. It was so sociopathic.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Like, I can't wait to see a picture.

[Lola Blanc]

He's barely cute.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Like, oh, just like, barely scratching the face.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, okay, good enough. You know what I mean?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Okay, great. It makes it even better.

[Lola Blanc]

It really does this. Anyway, if you know me in person, I'll give you all the. All the details, but they do not need to be described here. But it was so stupid.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I've done this so many times where I'm like, okay, I have to get over somebody. I'm just gonna, like, go out with this person, and it's a total rando. And then I'm, like, dating them, and I'm sad about that new person.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And I'm like, this is. My brain is hijacking itself.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And I can't do it.

[Lola Blanc]

So I. Yeah. I have been taking a break from dating after a while. It wasn't just him, too. Like, I kind of went on a frenzy because I was like, I need to see someone if he's seeing someone. And the ex I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But now the new. That. Not.

[Lola Blanc]

No, I do not give a fuck what that guy is saying.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And that's the great part. Like, once you unvalcro yourself, it, like, goes away pretty quickly.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But it. It does take some strength. And also, just when you recognize the signs, be like, it might be fun for the night, but, like, it is gonna fuck my brain up.

[Lola Blanc]

It will fuck your brain up. And I will say, withdrawing myself from that need to fill a void has been definitely the healthiest thing. So do recommend that, but.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Or just go still.

[Lola Blanc]

Carol, I'll be back out there. Or that.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

You'll be back out there soon. That's beautiful.

[Lola Blanc]

That's something. Anyway, should we talk to Carol?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah. I mean, am I doing too many jokes about kidnapping her, though?

[Lola Blanc]

I think it's just the right amount of jokes about kidnapping.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I love you, Carol. Let's talk to you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Glenn Washington]

You think you know Snap Judgment yes, it's on npr. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper. Stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up for. Welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame. Glenn Washington Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Fine. Snap Touch from KQED every Thursday wherever you get your podcast.

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Carol Murchison to Trust Me. Thanks so much for joining us today.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Lola Blanc]

We're obsessed with you. I just thought you should know some people have referred to you as the cult assass, which we will talk about why. But first, can you give us a little bit about your background before you kind of got into the current work that you're doing?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, absolutely. So I'm a lawyer, and I was a lawyer in a couple of big firms in the United States. And I did employment law. And as an employment lawyer, I also did investigations into sexual misconduct in the workplace. And so I retired, and at a certain point, I got involved in doing exactly what I had been doing before, which was an investigation, but this time it was into a Buddhist community in Canada because a woman had contacted me and said that there was a lot of sexual assault going on. And I honestly had a hard time believing it. And that was number one. And number two was I said to her, well, they need to do an investigation, because that's what I knew if I was in an organization and they had that kind of report, they would want to do an investigation. And she said, no, they're not speaking to me. So in a kind of rash moment, I said, well, all right, I'll. I'll help you out and I'll investigate. And I did. And a lot of what was reported was true, and I found a number of victims, and that got a lot of media coverage. And then I had other women come forward. And so I spent four years doing pro bono investigations into religious communities where women were alleging sexual assault. After four years, I found out that very few of these organizations, as you can imagine from your own experiences and knowledge, they were not going to take responsibility for what had happened. So I joined a law firm.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

That'll do it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, because. Yeah, because it looked like it was gonna take the, you know, the. The hammer of the law to get anyone to change.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. This is maybe not an important detail or question to ask, but I'm curious about why you didn't necessarily think she was telling the truth at first.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, because I think it was Buddhist. Do you know, it was like Buddhists there do no harm, you know, their compassion. It wasn't that I didn't believe her. It was that it was hard for me to wrap my mind around that a religious or a spiritual organization would be aware and allowing and enabling.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

That's a great question. And it just shows the built in bias we all have.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, yeah, the way that religions present themselves can sort of insulate them inherently from a certain kind of scrutiny because we're like, they don't believe that. That's right. So they wouldn't do that.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. That's super interesting. And when you were investigating, what did that look like? Like, just interviewing people or like, were you digging through someone's trash? Like, what is.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Was talking to people? It was not as exciting as. Well, digging through trash isn't that exciting. I'm guessing on the ground. In fact, it was a lot of time spent getting people to trust me enough to talk to me, and then it was talking to women who were survivors of this. And my initial idea had been that because I wasn't being hired by the organization, so if I went into a company in the United States, I'd be hired by the organization. I would go in, they would put me in a conference room, and HR would bring all these people down to talk to me. But this wasn't like that. These were people who had lost faith, who needed to build trust, and who didn't really believe that anything could happen because nothing had happened. So I spent a lot of time with that, but then I compiled what I would think of as corroboration.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

So either they disclosed something to somebody at the time. There's very rarely witnesses to sexual assault. You know, this is not an area where we think that there's a bystander who has seen something. And so it was compiling evidence. And my idea was that I was going to present this evidence to them so that they would do their own independent investigation. Sometimes that worked and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes the organization said, you know, never mind, you know, basically, I don't care about it. But in one or two cases, they did do an investigation, but only after they had known about the sexual assaults for quite some time. So this was not something that was news to them.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

What did it look like for you to have it dawn on you that this was not just a rumor, that this was actually real?

[Ryan Reynolds]

For me, it kind of lit a fire.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, for me, it was. Wait a minute. And what I found was this was not only real, but this was known. So it just lit a fire that said, wow, this is beautiful. Just wrong. Later I came to find out that these were what I would call cults. That it's not about being Buddhist, it's not about being in yoga, which is another one of the many cases that I have. It's not about the belief system. It's about all of these markers of high demand, high control groups.

[Lola Blanc]

Right? And any belief system, any religion, any organization or group, period, is capable of those dynamics. Right.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Any ideology, which is so sad.

[Lola Blanc]

So sad. You'd think There'd be one that would be pure and like no one could pervert it. But it turns out no. When there are people in positions of power telling other people what to do with their lives, I mean it's just.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And when there's hope and ideology, we are susceptible.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So what are some of the like typical kinds of cases that you're taking on? What does that usually look like?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, we started out taking on what we knew, which was sexual abuse in spiritual communities. And that looked a lot like cult like activity where you have the one charismatic leader. You cannot have any dissent, you cannot disagree. You must buy into this person as the only true path. You know, all of those things that we see in cults which leads to people having their agency taken away from them. And from our perspective, as a legal matter, a consent is not a possibility in those kinds of situations. And so we began doing sexual assaults in cult life high demand communities. And then we started same kind of conduct, but we started using the federal Human Trafficking act to bring claims because it's based on coercion and of course coercion, manipulation. All of those things are what we find in high demand groups. When we started with the trafficking act, then we have recently taken on some cases that are part of the trafficking act. One part is sex trafficking and the other part is forced labor. So we find in a lot of again high demand communities that people are being forced to into labor as well. And so the law doesn't give us huge number of tools to go after these organizations. And so those are just a few of the tools that we are using.

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

I I want to ask you more about the spirit of the law in a little bit because my mom ran into this with our cult leader. But before that I'm curious, like I feel like when we think of sexual abuse that's covered up within a religion, we typically think of like the Catholic church or the group that Megan grew up in as another example, the two by twos. But you came from this sort of like yoga spiritual, you know, more new agey eastern world. And I'm curious. I mean, I think I know the answer, but just to hear you verbalize it, like does it function exactly the same? Like, do the cultural differences make things different in these cases or is it kind of like same shit every time?

[Ryan Reynolds]

It is the same every time. I always think that there's somebody wrote a playbook, you know, and just only certain people have the playbook. They're the leader of these organizations. The leaders have the playbook. And honestly, it looks very much the same in all of it. Whether we're talking about again, it's not the content that they're Delivering. It's the structure and the abuse of power within the organization.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. So like in the Catholic Church, it might be a priest.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Or a pastor or, you know, in a more of a Christian based organization. But in one of these communities, it's like the yogi.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It just reminds me of a bigger version of an abusive relationship. It's like the pathology around somebody who's abusive or always seems to be very similar. And this is just it on a bigger scale. And so the playbook is the same because it's somebody's insanity.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Someone has special access to like the truth.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And because they have that special access to the truth, anything they say you must accept, even if you feel uncomfortable with it. And then if you begin to question that you're doing something wrong, there's something wrong with you. You're not righteous enough, you're not spiritual enough, you're not enlightened enough.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah. But your point, like, it is shocking to me how to their core, they're all almost exactly the same, no matter if some are standing on their heads, some are wearing like really long skirts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The costume.

[Lola Blanc]

Costumes are different.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

The costume, the hair, the shoes. But like at the core it is the same.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, yes. Now you, you asked an interesting question about some of the differences. So I think that what happens with some of the Eastern spiritual groups is that it comes out of a tradition of having a swami or a guru who is admired and who is all powerful and to whom you must take an oath, an actual oath of loyalty. And so I think that there's more of a fertile ground for abuse of power in some of those situations. In some of the more. What should I call them, kind of like mainstream religions, there are structures in place that kind of mitigate against abuses of power. We had a case that was a young boy who was assaulted in a Christian denomination. And it wasn't what I could consider to be a cult. It was, you know, a bad, terrible thing that happened that people didn't. They didn't recognize that it was happening. But it wasn't the same kind of thing as happens in high demand groups, which is, it's prevalent, it's accepted, because there's no way to speak out against it, because you would be speaking out against the person to whom you have given your loyalty. And you cannot do that. So that makes some of the Eastern ideologies more susceptible, I think, to the abuses of power.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And when you have that invisible playbook of, like karma, because I'm very susceptible to that whole field of things. You know, I like to meditate. I like karma. And if somebody's telling me, you know, oh, this is your karma, you have bad karma, I'm like, I don't want it, you know?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I do know. Yes. So it's just, I don't want bad karma.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I think. I think on.

[Ryan Reynolds]

On your website, I saw that you said something like, human beings, we are. We are almost intended to want to believe in something bigger than ourselves. So I'm a very big believer in the fact that any of us at any time could buy into these situations. I know that people often say to me, well, that's terrible, but, you know, that would never happen to me, you know, I would never believe that. And truly, I understand that point of view because some of the things are really crazy that people are told.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right. But that's what happens. There's a brain science behind how we are lured in a little bit at a time. How our defenses get down, how we are love bombed, how we come to depend on that feedback. Could happen to anybody. Because we trust. We are beings who trust. Want to trust.

[Lola Blanc]

We want to trust. We need purpose, we need meaning, we need community. And when someone is offering it to us on a silver platter, and it's so simple, all you have to do is X, Y and Z. Like, of course that we're going to gravitate toward that, especially because they leave the crazy shit out at the beginning.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

They don't say that. They don't say that up front. You brought up something interesting, which is the difference between sexual assault, assault, or misconduct occurring versus it being part of the system. How do we determine whether something is like a, you know, as people would say, like, bad apple situation versus like an endemic and like part of a systemic problem in. In an organization?

[Ryan Reynolds]

From my perspective, having been an employment lawyer in organizations, every organization has a bad apple. I mean, I went out and did investigations and sexual harassment training in, you know, probably 100 different organization, probably more. And there's always somebody who gets into trouble, you know, of some kind. But the difference is that for organizations, corporations in the United States, I. I would not be saying that they have a higher moral compass than other religious organizations, but they're afraid of the law.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. You know, there's money on the line. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Well, and there's nobody holding their eternal damnation or their karma over their heads. So they can just. It's pretty black and white, like money, the law, the end.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. And while that doesn't always play out Very well in society. The reality is that if you are the president of a big Fortune 10 company and you conduct yourself like some of these organizations that we're talking about, these high demand, high control cult organizations, you're fired. Because the money of the lawsuit and the money of the bad PR and the money of all of that media is worse. And so you are kind of forced into a corner, perhaps, of doing the right thing. When you get into an organization where you can't do the right thing, that's when I think that it becomes endemic. So you know, or you should have known that the swami or the guru or the lama or the Rinpoche is doing things like this, but there. There's no check and balance system to correct it.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. There's no HR department in your little yoga cult.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Or any cult. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So people, I. I imagine have built their entire narratives around being in these groups, and now you're confronting them with the knowledge that there's abuse going on. What does that look like with people trying to come to terms with it? And what often happens?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, what often happens is that they cannot do anything. They don't do anything. And I think that part of that is because they cannot. Because if you have an oath of loyalty or you have this investment, which is often more than just psychological, sometimes it's money, sometimes it's just laboring, sometimes it's belief, you actually cannot do anything about it. And so that's often what it looks like. From time to time, there are organizations that say, wow, let us look at this. But not often. When the leader is involved. If there are teachers under the leader who are involved, sometimes the organization will take that route. They'll get rid of the teacher, but they will not get rid of the culture or attack the culture that's happening.

[Lola Blanc]

How do religious protections in America sometimes enable these groups to not stop the abuse?

[Ryan Reynolds]

We have. It's a really good question. We have the First Amendment. It protects our ability to believe whatever we would like. It's a very broad power that is there for religious organizations. I think that the basic thing to understand about the First Amendment is that it covers our beliefs. We can believe in karma. We can believe that the guru is all powerful. We can believe that he or she knows the only true way. We can believe all of that. But behavior is something different. The fact that you may believe that it is. And this is something that I've encountered, you know, things like, if you have sex with the guru, you will be on a faster path to enlightenment. Well, you can believe that, but when you come to coerce people, then we're beginning to talk about behavior, and that is a different story altogether.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Because it's illegal.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So it's like the belief meets the legal system, and then suddenly it's like, that's all fun and games for you to believe it in your head. But if it's matching reality that's actionable, then that's problematic. Interesting.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, that's exactly right. So the beliefs are fine, but when you act on them, if it's illegal, I mean, that's the general thing. It has to be a law that is, I think the courts say, neutral. In other words, it's not aimed at religions. So there have been some cases in the United States, I think, indigenous religions, having to do with the use of peyote or other things like that. If we create a law that is directed specifically at a religious group, then that's not good. But if it's a neutrally applied law, like you can't sexually assault people.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Then generally that's the argument that we're making in these cases, that you can believe whatever you want, but your behavior has to meet societal standards, legal standards.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So one of the things that I run into a lot with the group that I grew up in is that people go, yes, it's illegal, and yes, this person did something bad, but they're chosen by God. They still need to spread this message. And so while it's hard, we have to forgive them so that they can keep doing this work and they'll just never do it again.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, I hear that all the time. And what I would say to that is that, of course, is not the philosophy of the legal system. Right. So.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

You're so. Yeah, so. You're so right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right. It's the philosophy of a group that is making a kind of, you know, they're weighing harm against some kind of, you know, of benefit. But that's not what the legal system does. And I think it's wrong, quite frankly. I was years ago in. In Eastern Europe, and I. I saw. I went to a museum, and the TIT exhibit was forgiveness is not a possibility. And I read that and on the. You know, on the banner outside of the. Of the room, and I thought, wow, you know, maybe that's true, you know, and since then, I have had occasion to do a somewhat deeper dive into this. And I would say that from my perspective, forgiveness must be earned. It is not. On the. On the. Our survivors. They're not the ones who need to give forgiveness. The person who has done this needs to have earned forgiveness. And going back to doing the same thing over and over again is not earning forgiveness in my view.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. Which typically people who are engaging in these behaviors are doing. It's not a one time thing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I agree. I think it is often in my experience is considered kind of a perk of the job. It's a, you know, it's a privilege that they have. Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It might even be the sole purpose that they're doing it.

[Lola Blanc]

In fact, in many cases I would assume it is.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It is.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So you bring up what the difference between belief and committing a crime under the law. But one of the areas that gets really hairy because of course child abuse is always objectively illegal. But you know, in the case of my mom, and granted this was in like 2000 ish with our self proclaimed prophet, she was sex trafficked while believing in this man. And after she got out, she went to the authorities and they basically didn't believe in coercion, at least not at that time. And they were like, you agreed to it, you're an adult. Well, why didn't you just leave? You weren't being physically violently restrained.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

And therefore you consented. Which of course betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of these dynamics. But what pathway is there when there isn't violence involved for an adult?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, you know, there is. For example, there's so much embedded in what you've said. Number one is that no, we don't understand coercion at all in our society and we don't have laws that are strictly about coercion. You mentioned domestic violence. A few states are now adding coercion elements to their domestic violence law. Because you're exactly right. Domestic violence is so similar to cult dynamics. Just the cult dynamics is a bigger domestic group. And so coercion is not well understood in our society and it is not therefore represented very well in the law. We do have, as I said, we have the Federal Trafficking act, which does have an element that recognizes that coercion and fraud, I would say that they negate consent. The best case that I can give you to understand this and your listeners as well is if we think about Harvey Weinstein. So Harvey Weinstein was, I think he was found liable under the civil Federal Trafficking Act. And when I read that in the paper, that was like 2019 maybe, I thought, whoa, what did I miss about Harvey? Because to me, trafficking was putting women in the back of a truck and crossing a state line, a border. But that's not it at all. Actually, Harvey Weinstein was committing sex trafficking because he was coercing women into having sex with him through, again, coercion or fraud. In his case, it was, if you have sex with me, I will put you in contact with a big producer and this will make your career. Those cases were upheld under the Sex Trafficking Act. Now, if you looked at those situations, you would see that if you were looking at a film of those incidents, you would have said that the women consented because they did not scream, they did not run, they did not do anything. But we're coming, I think, along to a better sense that not everything is consensual. You know, we have the fawn fight fear. You know, our responses are to freeze, for example. And if a person was holding a gun to our head in a dark alley, we would not be told that we were consenting because there was a danger. What we don't fully understand under the law is that that same psychological situation exists even when there's not a gun to people's heads, that there's a psychological danger in fighting back.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to just use the example of my mom again, because in her case, she first of all was begging to not be kept in this place, was asking to leave constantly and being told, you have to do this. Your salvation depends on it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And you will not be with your children. The most important thing in the world to her, her children in the afterlife. You will be separated from them for eternity if you do not obey and engage with these men. And she ended up being physically abused by them as well. Very horrific situation. But, yeah, it's like on the outside, she's still living there. Why doesn't she just walk away and drive away? But it's like, you literally are going to lose your children forever.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Or like burn in hell forever.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's. That's coercion.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, absolutely. And in his case, it was also fraud because he was claiming he was a prophet translating the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Anyway.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And I think that a lot of people, you know, they. They look at the Harvey Weinstein thing and they say, yeah, but they just wanted to get something. They wanted to get a role. I'm watching the. I'm reading the P. Diddy trial. So allegedly, a lot of that things, you know, they just wanted a record deal and they wanted this, but they wanted that. And then with Lola's mom, they're like, well, that your mom was being like, super threatened.

[Lola Blanc]

I get it.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But these women just wanted something. They just want Something. And they don't understand that. Well, number one, allegedly, with p. Did he. That, like, you could be murdered, you know?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And with Weinstein, you, like, who knows what could happen and the cancellations and.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, yeah, yeah. With Weinstein, it's like you have. Yes, there's the dangling of the opportunity, but there's also the threat that you'll have no career if you don't.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly. Exactly. I think that's exactly what my response would be, which is, it's not just that people were going after this because they wanted something. It's because if they didn't do it, they were canceled in their career. And that we have decided, apparently, as a society, since it's Congress that passes these laws, because under the Sex Trafficking act, we have decided as a society that that is not okay.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Thank God.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And it isn't okay.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

No, it is not. Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

How do you prove that in court? Like, how do you prove that coercion has taken place?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, one of the things that. And I have it right here, actually, a piece of paper that I look at all the time, which is called the Bite Model by Steve Hassan, who was himself a member of a cult and is a psychologist. And he has four quadrants. Behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. And he has, you know, like, 10 to 15 elements under each of them. And we look at them and we have our clients, you know, kind of look at what was the coercion, the control that was exerted over me. And then in order to prove coercion under the Trafficking act, for example, then we have to introduce evidence of all those elements of coercion so that a jury can understand exactly. What you were saying before was that this wasn't someone's free will. They were not free. They might not have been tied up. They may not have been locked in, but psychologically, they were not free. They were being coerced.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I'm so glad that law was passed. What. What a pleasant.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Surprise.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Progress.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah. Actual progress.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to ask about cults that try to sue people who leave. My guy has tried to sue me, but he's an idiot and he did it wrong. And. And, you know, we had connections to NXIVM as well. My mom knew Keith Ranieri, and so I knew some of his victims, and they were so litigious, they were, like, destroying people and destroying the ability to speak out. How often do you run into that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

First of all, all the time. All the time. Right. Because if you listen, if you have that kind of power and you're abusing because you have to have a lot of power to be able to abuse that power, then you are going to try to use that power to keep people from saying anything against you. So one of the big ones that we see is defamation. So if you say anything about a cult leader or, you know, whoever it might be, then we are going to sue you for defamation. That's a very scary thing to have happen to you. And so that is absolutely a technique that is used to silence people from speaking out. But in some states, New York is one and there are others, I think California is one as well. There are what are called anti slap laws. So we have again as a society decided that it is not good to silence people who are want to say something about something that is in the public interest. And so if you are sued for defamation and you happen to have been speaking out in the public interest, then some states have these anti slap laws, which means that you can go on a faster track because litigation is unbelievably slow. But anti slap you go on a faster track and you can get attorneys fees. So it's never good to be sued. And being threatened to be sued for defamation does silence a lot of people, understandably. But there is a recognition that these things need to be spoken of and that we should not be allowing frivolous lawsuits.

[Lola Blanc]

Practically speaking, like if somebody tries to sue me today for speaking out about an experience that I had and, but I'm in California where there are anti slap laws, would I still have to hire an attorney? It's still an intimid, an intimidation tactic because you still have to spend money, right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And technically if you win, they have to pay your legal fees. But then it's like, how do you get someone in the meantime?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly. It's still a problem. It is better than nothing, as so many things are. But it nonetheless still requires, as you said, you have to have the money to put it up up front and then you have to hope that you win. Now I will tell you that once I was threatened with defamation and even though I'm a lawyer, I had an out of body experience because it frightened me so badly. So when I tell you that I understand, it is frightening. I know that from my firsthand experience. And I was about to publish a report on a spiritual cult group and I got a lawyer and he said to me, he said I had done in this investigation, I was going to publish the results of it. And he said to me, do you believe that this happened? I Said without question. You know, if you find, let's say, five women who've been assaulted over five different time periods by the same person in the same way, it's unlikely that they're lying. It's unlikely that it's a coincidence. It's more than likely true. And he said, then they may threaten you, but they do not want to put a bunch of people under oath to find out that this is true. It's a little bit cold comfort. It doesn't pay the bills. But I find that I just talked to some two women who received a cease and desist letter about something that they were writing, and it was a little bit like a threat, but maybe not real.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. It's like they're assuming you'll back down because it is a hassle and it is scary and it is expensive. Like, then they have to actually defend their case in court.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly. They also have to pay a lawyer and they have to put people under oath. And in the case where I was threatened, I later came to find out what I suspected, which is that they knew that this was true. So if you know it's true and they know it's true, they do not want to put a bunch of people under oath in front of a jury to prove defamation.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's an interesting arc to watch these cult leaders confront the legal system because even in their own brains, they are such gods. And then, you know, they suddenly like, Keith or nary. The most surprised face I've ever seen on a human man is him sitting in court, like, realizing that other people aren't going to be like, well, you're the smartest man in the world, according to. To the Australian Guinness Book of World Records that you made up. And people being like, no, that's so illegal, Keith. You're going to jail now. And they're like, they're shocked because they've built a world around this being true for them, where they're like, I'm invincible.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's a very interesting.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It is. It's like a rock and the hard place, you know?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because when you build. You're absolutely right. In my experience, when you build that kind of thing around you, you. That you are all powerful, but then somebody else is actually more powerful than you are.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That the law has more power over you than you could have possibly imagined. You have to believe that these are. These are difficult.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They have cognitive things to.

[Lola Blanc]

Cognitive dissonance.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Exactly. Like, they're like, how can this be true? Like, I know Keith thinks he's getting out any day.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah, I'm reading his mind.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Now he can sue me for defamation or like.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, no, you know, I know. No.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But I truly think a lot of these self proclaimed super important people are like, of course I'm getting out. I'm God's channel.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Although he knew he was deceiving people.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I know, but like sometimes they just buy their own.

[Lola Blanc]

No, it's true. It's true.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They do. Absolutely. It's not, I think in a certain way, I don't know this for a fact, I'm just like, you know, spinning this out here. But I think that when you have that much power and you're abusing that much power, you believe in your power because it's proven to you every day.

[Lola Blanc]

True.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That you are more powerful than everyone else.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm able to manipulate this many people to do what I want. I must be special and important and God and a prophet and all the other things.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's a self. Yeah. It's just a self contained circle that keeps moving and moving and moving. And that's why the lot is just this beautiful little stone to throw into the channel and watch it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Which isn't perfect yet. It's not perfect. Especially in this era.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The criminal justice system is difficult. It is difficult for people. And one of the reasons is there are a lot of hurdles to get into it. So you mentioned your mother. Your mother went to the police and was, you know. Well, so that's where the criminal justice system starts, is with the police. So if you can't get the police interested, you can't get through the door to the next hurdle of the criminal justice system.

[Lola Blanc]

And police don't know shit about coercion, let me tell you. Or sexual assault.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, that's right, they don't. And so, you know, I had a client who did try to go the criminal justice route and was completely unsuccessful. She got through the police part of it. But then they have to convene a grand jury and then the perpetrator has to be in the United States or else they have to be extradited. I mean, these folks on the criminal justice side have resource limitations. They can't take every case. They have to feel that they can win it. And there are lots of, lots and lots of obstacles. It's the same on the civil side in the sense that there are lots of obstacles. But one of the main differences, I think. Two main differences, maybe more. 3. I'm going to get up to 10 here in a minute. One is that you have your own lawyer. So I represent a human being. A district attorney does not represent a human being. He or she represents the state, the government's interest, and often those are aligned, but they are sometimes not, whereas civil lawyers represent their clients. So that's one thing. You have your own lawyer. Another thing is that the civil justice system allows you to sue not just the perpetrator, but the organization that enabled the perpetrator. That probably silenced you as the victim, who probably retaliated against you, shunned you, threw you out. If they were aware of what was going on, there's potential of a lawsuit of negligence, for example, against the organization. And many of our clients, they actually feel that they were as harmed by the organizational response as by the perpetrator who sexually assaulted them. The criminal justice system, we can't send an organization to jail. And that's the only thing that we have. So we can send Keith Raniere to jail. But if I had to guess, I would say that probably out there somewhere, his organization is still operating in some way in the civil justice system. You can sue the organization as well. The third difference is that you get money. And as you mentioned before, people are like, oh, well, she was only in it for the money. Well, I have news. Healing from these kinds of things takes money. And if you harm somebody's car, if you smash into it and you do not have insurance, you pay money for the repair. I think it's exactly the same thing here. You harm people in so many ways with these spiritual deceptions. You take away people's ability to trust. You pay because it costs money to repair.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean it literally. It does, because it is so expensive. First of all, to get a qualified specialized therapist, that's not typically something that's covered by your insurance. Also, like, when you're emerging from a system like that, you're starting over, you're often destabilized for quite some time and getting your life back together and back in order and figuring out what you do now and who you are now, and often without any resources.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And what we talk about a lot of. I thought the world was going to end every day, so I didn't plan for a future. I wasn't like, what do I want to be when I grow up? I was like. Like, tomorrow the world's ending. So, like.

[Lola Blanc]

No, it's a good point.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's, you know, that's money.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Money is the currency of justice. That's what the partner of our law firm in Olivarius says. Money is the currency of justice. So that's what you have to do. You have to come up with money to pay for the harm that you knew about.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And that you allowed.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's also like, what else are you gonna do? Like, I mean, I'm sure some people would just really want there to be, like, changes implemented, you know, from the top down and like survivor assistance. Like, I'm sure there are other things, but there aren't that many options for, like, how to repair.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's right. And some of those things we are able to get. Because you're right, a lot of our clients at least would like to see change. One of the reasons that they're coming forward is that they would like to see no one el harmed in the same way that they were harmed. But the system is geared toward money. And while we are sometimes successful in getting organizations to change, less so than I would have believed. I would have thought that a no cost, low cost change would be a no brainer for an organization that they would say, okay, well, all right, so maybe I won't pay you exactly this much money, but I'll pay you this much and then I'll make these changes. But often I see organizations who are absolutely unwilling to change even after having been sued and having to settle lawsuits.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Okay, yeah, so Keith's in jail. Let's. Let's go back to Nexiv. I know that Nexium is still operating in some capacity. So these are the enablers now taking over the organization. Like, can you say a little bit about enablers? Because you kind of said. Said earlier in the interview something really interesting where it's like, yeah, there are people who are so deep in this narrative that there isn't really an option out for them. So how do we hold these people in our minds and in our hearts?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, so the enablers are a problem because as you said, if they're still out there with Nexium, for example, and they are still running the organization, are they making the same kinds of mistakes that were made before? The only thing that I can say is that if you have been through, and I feel like all of us have been through Ranieri's criminal trial because we watched it on a documentary. I would hope, and I hope the same thing in the cases that I have, that having been dragged through the justice system, that you are loathe to do the same thing again. So do you know what I mean? It's like you're on somebody's radar now. They know your names, and we would hope that they're not doing the same thing, that they had some kind of giant wake up call and they maybe are smarter now than they were before.

[Lola Blanc]

And do you mean, like, how much do they hold responsibility versus the.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah, that answered a lot of it. And just, you know, how do I say it? Like, I guess without going into too much detail, I've just seen firsthand how enabling happens with followers when they are indoctrinated. And it's tricky because I know people still inside high control groups. How do I make peace with some of the choices they make in relation to something like enabling?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have people come to me all the time. They call me and say, my daughter is in this group and I'm sure it's a cult. How do I get her out? How do I make her see that this is high demand, high control, et cetera? And unfortunately, the answer is, you probably can't. You probably can't make her see. The best advice that I've heard, it doesn't come from me, but from people who are smarter in terms of psychology and dealing with survivors and with families, is that you maintain contact. But you do not argue. Because we should know this by now, Right. Because if you've been like me and probably spent a year or two arguing with people on Facebook.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally. Yep. Still doing it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And then someone like your husband says to you, why are you arguing with people you don't know on Facebook? And you say, oh, yeah, no good reason for that. Arguing does not change people's minds. And so when what the experts say is maintain contact because maybe someday something will change. And if you're still out there maintaining contact, then that's the most important thing.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So even if these people are technically enablers, unconsciously. Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, because, I mean, enablers is a big word, isn't it? I mean, they're enabling. We're enabling. If we. If we send money to an organization, we're enabling what they do. We are enabling. If we go to a public talk that somebody gives who happens to be. So there are many different levels, I think, of enabling. And so I think just being in. You may have to let that go.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because really, you don't have any control over it anyway.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

No. Learn that the hard way. It's true. It's true.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But it is, again, there. There is that very strong argument kind of in our Facebook group or ex Facebook group, of like, you have to cut everyone up. They're enabling. And like, it's illegal and you can't do it anymore. And then other people being like, no, they haven't seen the light yet and we have to stay in relationship and it is just like complicated.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't think there's any right answer.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, if they're enabling something that is illegal, then they gotta go, yeah, then maybe that's a different story. But enabling an organization that we know to be a cult and that we know are ruining people's lives through their beliefs but not their behavior. Maybe we just have to let that go.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I think enabling is, there's a spectrum of enabling. Like attending a church service and saying, I still believe this church is good is very, very different from saying, okay, here's the door, now go in there and do the sex thing. You know, like, those are not the same thing. And I think when that is turned into a binary and painted into as like a black and white thing of like, if you have any association with this group whatsoever, you are enabling them. And enabling abuse, like that isn't exactly accurate. Right. There are shades of it. That's my, my perspective anyway.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, I think a lot also about boundaries and about having your own boundary, but allowing other people. Again, when we're talking about enabling, not as enabling a criminal activity or illegal activity, but, you know, drawing the boundary for yourself of where you want to be in it, but then letting go of thinking that we're going to change people's minds because we most often do not.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Never ever.

[Lola Blanc]

I know it so intimately that that is true, but every time my brain's like, but if I say it in just the right way, then they'll finally understand, you know, like it's, well, why are we so convinced of that? Like, if I just am a verbal ninja, then I can like say exactly the right thing. No, never.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Never ever.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, what would you say are some warning signs to look out for in spiritual movements and self improvement groups, churches, any of it?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, the first thing that comes to my mind and probably just because of my own perspective, is that somebody who tells you that they have the only truth is a problem. Because I think that when we exist in a very big world with a lot of wisdom traditions, that there is no one truth that's right for everyone. So I think that that's kind of a number one thing. I think the second thing, and I see this in so many of the groups that we litigate against, is that you cannot have a dissenting opinion. So if you are in a group that you are not permitted to have a dissenting opinion or it is Set up and structured in such a way that you feel manipulated into hiding your dissenting opinion. Those are two. I would say the third one is almost always an authoritarian charismatic leader. And with those three things, I think that there should be a red flag.

[Lola Blanc]

And you might not know they're authoritarian at first. They might just seem really charming.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Like they know a lot of stuff.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's the charismatic part, right? Yeah. But by the time people start telling you who you have to be with, what decisions you need to make in your life, then you're talking about someone who's authoritarian who says this is the only right answer. You cannot disagree with it, you know? Then you're in an authoritarian system.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Well, how much do I need to pay you to come live with me?

[Lola Blanc]

Just tell me what to do every.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Day and how to think, because I feel like you can fix me.

[Lola Blanc]

You want her to be your authoritarian leader?

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I want you to be my authoritarian leader.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's right. And I will tell you everything that you need to do right in your life.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I'm so grateful for all the work that you've done. It's just so important. And you're such a wonderful voice in this space. So thank you for coming on and for all the work you do.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you. I have to say that it is and that all of the lawyers who work with me feel the same way. It is an honor to be able to help people in this way. And so I appreciate your kind words. I appreciate your inviting me on for this wonderful conversation that we had today. And we're all just gonna keep working.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

That's right. Before we wrap up here, I wanted to ask you, are there any resources that you would recommend for people who need legal help or just, like, some support?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I would send people to the bite model. I'm gonna make a note of this, and I can send it to you. I think that it's helpful for people to look at the elements of coercion and identify them. That's one resource. There are a number of therapists who work. As you said, this is stuff that's expensive, which is why money is helpful. But Dan Shaw, Rachel Bernstein are two therapists that I'm aware of. Steve Hasan, who work with trauma cult survivors.

[Lola Blanc]

I was curious, actually, and I meant to ask you this earlier. Is there anyone doing pro bono work in the cult or high control group space?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Not that I know of. Now, having said that, what I will say is that a number of large law firms do pro bono work. Of course, many of them are now doing pro Bono work for Trump. So they may not be available to help actual people. But there are some times I have been able to find. I found a lawyer pro bono once on a defamation a. A woman who was threatened with defamation if she used her name in a media report and she said exactly what you said, which is, you know, I wouldn't have the money to be able to defend it even if I could get out on anti slap. So I found a lawyer who was willing to defend her pro bono because he would get the lawyer's fees at the end of it.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So in, in the anti slap, the, the lawyer would get paid. So sometimes that's possible.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There's a woman whose name is Nancy Floy F L O Y and if you look her up, it's called Hartwood H E A R T Wood. She runs a survivors network for people who have been abused in Buddhist communities. She runs a conference every year for survivors and they meet online remotely. And that's free.

[Lola Blanc]

So just to summarize what you said, there isn't anyone explicitly doing pro bono work in the cult space. However, if you have a really strong case to defend against defamation, you would most likely qualify to have your legal fees paid, in which case you might be able to find a lawyer who will.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's right. Exactly. You might be able to find a lawyer who would do it pro bono.

[Lola Blanc]

So you've got to make a bunch of calls.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Do it anyway. Yeah, do it anyway.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you so much, Carol. And do you have a website if somebody wants to hire you or contact you?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, of course. It's McAllister Oliverious and it's in London. The main office is in London, but my practice is in the United States.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Thank you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Big thank you to Carol for joining us today. Megan, you mentioned something about the Two by Twos, the group that you grew up in and their legal sort of strategy.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yeah, I mean, you asked me, would you ever sue the two by twos at some point? I think or somebody did. And they are very smart because they don't technically. I mean, if you dig a little deeper, they do, but they don't really have an organization or a name or anything. So there's. There hasn't been any money paid to victims. It's all very individual court cases. And we were taught growing up or those who enter the group are taught we don't have a name because Jesus didn't have a name for his group. And it's a very biblical, beautiful, holy thing. And in the end it's more of a holy shit, I can't sue you.

[Lola Blanc]

But the money has to be going somewhere.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

What money? Oh, their money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

To the overseers.

[Lola Blanc]

The overseers are individually getting sued for, like, handling abuse cases. Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

But they're not getting sued for money. Who knows where that money is? It's like cash.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Wow. They're not even. They're not even. Not taxed as a church. They're just not even counting it as a church at all.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Fascinating.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

One guy got caught, like, one overseer got caught with so much money in cash, like, going over the Canadian border. And they'll just tell you, of course, that it's all like, on the up and up, and. And it's to spread the gospel, babe. To who? To who? Who's joined this?

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Right. Who is Jo? Cause nobody joins us.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No one.

[Lola Blanc]

They're already in it. Nobody's joining.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

There's always a random letter, and it's always like, semi racist in, like, not a mean way. But it's like a Chinese couple is joining us in gospel meeting. And it's like, why don't you just say a couple?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Oh, my God. Why are they always, like, from another country, probably lonely and lost? Like, why are you really spelling it out for us? That.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. In fairness, I think all white people over 50 do that, but sure. Okay. Definitely members of my family.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

And I mean, I. I guess it's better than them not wanting people that are non white there.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure, sure.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

I. I guess. I guess. But it's like they're. They're not joining a b. Stop. Stop it right now.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, I'm gonna stop you there.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No one's.

[Lola Blanc]

Other things also.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Just stop it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

So, yeah, I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

But people are banding together now.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

We have a merry band of soldiers, but no organization, so to speak, to go up against.

[Lola Blanc]

That's really, really interesting. I mean, I'll be.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Be.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So curious to see how it all plays out.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Me too.

[Lola Blanc]

So if you're starting a cult, don't have a name is what I'm gathering.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Do not write down any doctrine. Everybody burn every letter. And you'll have the two by twos.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Also separately, not related to the two by twos. Gonna throw this in here. I talked to my mom about the legal element of the cult community, and she recommended something that I did. Just try for California and see what happened. And it actually was interesting. You can look up your state bar association and often they will have a directory of pro Bono attorneys.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Cool.

[Lola Blanc]

So when you look up California's pro bono attorney list, often it will intersect with like some specific human rights org or civil rights org. But I think in many cases, if it's a women's rights issue, a children's rights issue, a disability justice, you know, like, often those things could intersect with the cult. So always worth looking at if you are in a legal situation. Um, also, she recommended to look up previous cases against cults. There are people who are kind of known for this. There's a man named Roger Houle who has sued the FLDS before, for example. Like, even if they can't take the case on, they might know someone who can.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

That's dope. I love that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Um, so those are other tips. Cause it again, like we say in the episode, like, it's really, really scary if someone threatens you with defamation. But. But you are not alone. There are people out there who will be able to help you or help direct you.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

It's like the cult Avengers.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Anyway, we'll put all the links, all the relevant links into the show. Notes.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Yay. Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode. We can't wait to see you again next week. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never, ever Trust Me.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMePodcast or on TikTok USMeCult podcast.

[Carol Murphy Murchison]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation?

[Lola Blanc]

Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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