Claire Hoffman - The Rise and Vanishing of Evangelist Megastar Aimee Semple McPherson

Summary

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Trust Me: "Claire Hoffman – The Rise and Vanishing of Evangelist Megastar Aimee Semple McPherson"

Podcast: Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Episode Date: August 27, 2025
Host/Guests: Lola Blanc, Megan Elizabeth, Claire Hoffman (guest)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the extraordinary life, fame, and mysterious disappearance of Aimee Semple McPherson, a Pentecostal evangelist who ruled the American religious airwaves and established one of the first mega-churches in the 1920s and ‘30s. Guest Claire Hoffman—author of Sister, Sinner: The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Aimee Semple McPherson—shares how McPherson revolutionized Christian entertainment, navigated early media celebrity culture, and became a household name before vanishing in a real-life drama that gripped the nation. The conversation unpacks McPherson’s origins, ascent, controversies, and the broader themes of belief, celebrity, manipulation, and the cult of personality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Aimee Semple McPherson?

Background & Significance

• McPherson is described as a forerunner to both modern televangelists and pop-culture figures—"like if Kim Kardashian and Joel Osteen but also, like, Gwyneth and Oprah got all mixed together." (Claire Hoffman, 14:51)
• Despite enormous influence, she's largely forgotten, which Claire attributes to patriarchy and the marginalization of pioneering women in history (13:33-14:38).

Notable Quote:
"I feel like everybody in America knows who Billy Graham is, and she seemed almost more important and earlier, but she was just this little paragraph... and I just kind of figured, oh, that makes sense that she would be forgotten, because patriarchy."
— Claire Hoffman (14:23)

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2. McPherson’s Rise: Faith, Fame, and Entertainment

Origins & Innovations

• Claire recounts how teenage Aimee, inspired during a Canadian revival, was captivated by a charismatic Irish preacher—whom she later married.
• Her charismatic, loving, and non-hellfire preaching style, combined with divine healing claims, drew crowds and set her apart.
• McPherson crisscrossed the country, blindsiding audiences unaccustomed to a woman preacher.
• She established the Angelus Temple in Los Angeles (aka "the Million Dollar Temple"), funding it via creative, community-based "chairholder" schemes and self-promotion (25:57-26:56).
• Innovation in media: Founded one of the first Christian radio stations; pioneered "illustrated sermons" with costumes, animals, choirs—turning religious service into spectacle (26:56-27:42).

Notable Quote:
"She would perform these big illustrated sermons... using entertainment to spread the gospel, which hadn't quite been a thing... She would have animals and props and a giant, like, huge orchestra and choir."
— Claire Hoffman (26:56)

Audience & Impact

• Services crammed in 6,000 people, with up to 15,000 on Sundays. Los Angeles buzzed with her influence (27:24-27:42).

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3. The Cult of Personality & Early Celebrity Culture

• McPherson made herself the product: sharing her life story, putting her face on the cover, drawing people into her narrative.
• This influencer-style self-branding was unusual, but effective (28:41).

Control vs. Charisma

• Although there were later accusations (e.g., from a book titled "Amy the Gospel Gold Digger"), Hoffman finds little evidence of cult-style control—more influencer than dictator, though “everybody’s dead, so it’s hard to know.” (29:50)

Notable Moment:
She allegedly sent herself bouquets every night to dramatize audience adoration (30:22).

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4. Scandal: Vanishing from Venice Beach

The Disappearance (32:28 on)

• 1926: After personal and professional strain, McPherson vanishes at Venice Beach while composing a sermon.
• Immediate hysteria: crowds of 40,000 hold vigils; search efforts are frantic and even fatal (36:36).
• 36 days later, she reappears in Mexico claiming a harrowing kidnapping by "white slavers," which is met initially with belief then mounting suspicion.
• Questions arise: Her appearance is too pristine, no evidence of a shack or kidnappers is found, and rumors swirl about an affair with her married radio operator.

Notable Quote:
"She walks in from the deserts of Mexico, 600 miles away into somebody's backyard and asks for a telephone... she tells them that she was kidnapped into what she called white slavery by the underworld. And she had been held a prisoner. ...And right away there's questions."
— Claire Hoffman (35:57)

Parallel with Modern Celebrity Scandal:
"It becomes just this citywide news story, right. So tens of thousands ... it's just a big cauldron. Crazy kind of pre-reality TV... scandal."
— Claire Hoffman (34:36)

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5. Aftermath & Theories

• Grand jury investigations focused on scandal and her personal/professional life.
• Rumors solidified: witnesses claimed she spent the missing time in Carmel with her lover; he eventually confessed, others remain ambiguous (40:00–41:24).
• Hoffman intentionally leaves room for readers' interpretation, highlighting the complexity and lack of definitive answers, but notes McPherson herself never altered her story (40:27).

Notable Quote:
"You can kind of imagine that for whatever the reason was she decided to do this thing and for whatever the reason was that she decided to come back, she convinced herself of its reality."
— Claire Hoffman (45:16)

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6. The Personal Cost of Public Worship

• Post-scandal, McPherson suffered mental breakdowns, estrangement, lawsuits, and personal misery (46:49).
• The discussion departs from cults to explore broader dangers of fame, projection, and worship—making sharp parallels to both religious leaders and modern celebrities like Britney Spears (48:21).

Notable Quote:
"You just see the cost of projecting a single version of yourself and…committing to it... And when you turn that self into a commodity and people are worshiping it... it gets really complex."
— Claire Hoffman (49:03)

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7. Broader Reflections: Fame, Vulnerability, and the Urge to Believe

The hosts and Hoffman consider how American society’s attraction to charismatic figures—be it evangelists, pop stars, or influencers—creates cycles of adulation, exploitation, and eventual destruction both for leaders and followers.

Notable Quote:
"I think anytime we elevate somebody else above us and, like, attribute special powers to them and kind of worship them... It's like a psychological experiment, you know? Like, it immediately seems to go wrong."
— Claire Hoffman (50:52)

Contemporary Examples:

• The parallel is drawn explicitly between McPherson’s fate and the lives of modern figures placed on pedestals (Britney’s conservatorship, public breakdowns, etc., 50:02-50:39).

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On McPherson as a hybrid celebrity-evangelist:
  "It's like if Kim Kardashian and Joel Osteen, but also, like, Gwyneth and Oprah got all mixed together." (14:51)
• On her mother as a 'religious stage mom':
  "Her mom is such a religious Kris Jenner. It's like Amish Kris Jenner." (24:33)
• On her unique approach to ministry:
  "She really connected to this sort of individuality and a sense of agency. Like, you could. You could do things. You had power." (23:41)
• After reappearance, the instant public suspicion:
  "Aesthetic....she's so clean! ...you didn't have, like, plants on her... But she'd said she had run for... 20 miles." (37:54)
• On the psychological toll of fame:
  "That fame and that criticism just kind of ate her from the inside, you know, and there was bad behavior, continued bad behavior. There were a lot of lawsuits. She ended up estranged from her family." (48:21)
• Reflecting on cycles of worship and downfall:
  "We worship the strangers and it destroys them and us." (04:23)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 13:33 – Claire introduces McPherson and why she wrote the book.
• 14:51 – Modern comparisons: "Kim Kardashian and Joel Osteen..."
• 15:26–18:10 – How McPherson began; her origins in the Pentecostal movement.
• 18:56–22:28 – Early ministry, charisma, love language in preaching, the role of her mother.
• 25:57–27:42 – The creation of Angelus Temple, use of entertainment and media.
• 32:28–36:57 – Breakdown and buildup to the disappearance; the Venice Beach event.
• 36:57–40:27 – The aftermath: search, reappearance, public’s reaction, rise of suspicion.
• 44:22–45:16 – Theories about her disappearance; psychological analysis.
• 46:49–50:52 – The personal cost, parallels to contemporary celebrity, takeaway lessons.
• 53:20–54:48 – Reflections on what would disillusion followers.
• 54:49–56:11 – Lola plugs her song "Everybody" (thematic tie-in with fame and belonging).

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

• Fame as a Modern Cult:
  The episode underscores how cult dynamics and the perils of charisma are entwined with modern celebrity. McPherson’s story is a lens on gender, adulation, and the blurred lines between belief, manipulation, and performance.

• Ambiguity and Empathy:
  By resisting a definitive verdict on McPherson’s disappearance, Hoffman and the hosts emphasize the importance of embracing ambiguity and empathy—for both leaders and those who follow or idolize them.

Notable Closing Quote:
"Anytime we elevate somebody else above us and...worship them...it's like a psychological experiment. It immediately seems to go wrong."
— Claire Hoffman (50:52)

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Further Reading

Claire Hoffman's book, Sister, Sinner: The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Aimee Semple McPherson, is available wherever books are sold (52:05).

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Summary prepared for those seeking a vivid account of the rise and enigma of Aimee Semple McPherson, American religious celebrity, and what her story reveals about faith, media, manipulation, and fame.

Transcript

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Claire Hoffman]

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[Claire Hoffman]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Claire Hoffman]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Claire Hoffman]

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[Claire Hoffman]

Trust Me.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

Do you trust me?

[Claire Hoffman]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

This is the truth.

[Claire Hoffman]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two very famous celebrities who've actually experienced it. I'm famous celebrity Lola Blanc and I'm.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Famous celebrity Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And if you haven't heard of us, that's your problem. Today is part two with Claire Hoffman, former member of a transcendental meditation community and author of two books we are discussing. One we talked about last week called Utopia park, about her childhood in tm. And the second, which we will talk about today, is called Sarah Sister Sinner, the Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Amy Semple McPherson. Claire is going to tell us who Amy Semple McPherson was. She was a Pentecostal evangelist and media celebrity in the 1920s and 30s, how McPherson first decided to create a church and how she pioneered the use of theatrics and mass media, using radio to build an audience and make a whole lot of money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Claire is going to explain how McPherson skyrocketed to fame and became a mega famous public figure like us.

[Claire Hoffman]

And.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then she'll tell us the story of McPherson's mysterious disappearance from the beach in Santa Monica and the ensuing court case that gripped the Nation. Basically the O.J. simpson trial of the 1920s, which is so crazy because I'd never heard of it before. It just shows you how much happens that we don't even know about.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I know. And this is American history and that, like, yeah, we should know about, like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If a 1928 time traveler, Kim. They'd be like, what do you think about Amy S. Oneple?

[Claire Hoffman]

And people would be like, we don't know her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It would be like us being like, you don't know Kim Kardashian in a hundred years.

[Lola Blanc]

Because it's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It just is. It was just wild to not know this story at all.

[Lola Blanc]

Indeed. And before we talk about this story with Claire, Megan, please share your cultiest thing of this week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, the thought on the tip of my head is feeling.

[Lola Blanc]

On the tip of your head?

[Claire Hoffman]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Fascinating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Listen, the point is smart the way I say it might.

[Lola Blanc]

The point on the tip of your head.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mine is fame. It's a cult. And it feels so real while you're in it. You're like, I'm famous.

[Lola Blanc]

Because that's how you feel right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because you're super famous, as we know in the intro. But it's. It is culty and it totally is.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We worship the strangers and it destroys them and us.

[Lola Blanc]

It does destroy them. Yeah. Like, there's always this trajectory of, like, wait, they're so good. Wait, wait, wait. I love them. I'm obsessed with them. And then once we like them too much, we're like, deep value. Fuck that person. I hate them. I'm so sick of them. Jennifer Lawrence is annoying, actually, you know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. That was just at the. The forefront for me.

[Lola Blanc]

I had a couple videos go viral ish recently online, and it doesn't feel good. It feels bad because then I'm like, well, how do I do it again?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no.

[Lola Blanc]

How do I make. What do I do for the next one?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right?

[Lola Blanc]

How do I, like, get this again and keep this going? Like, it. It. It's, like, interesting how it really isn't like you. You have to keep churning stuff out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right? You're not. You never reach the pinnacle or the point. It's just an ever moving goalpost.

[Lola Blanc]

Like cults and the most successful people I know, like, absolutely do not feel like they have achieved. Like, they gotten there. And like, okay, now I can rest. Like, no, let's not shout out to my song everybody whose lyric is, when everybody loves me, Then I'll finally be happy. Then I'll finally rest. Go stream it now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh, ooh, ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

We should play to the end of this episode. Oh, it's so relevant to this story.

[Claire Hoffman]

A rally.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I agree with you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Okay, so this week. Well, like two days ago, I was in the grocery store. I was in. I think it was John's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

And a young woman, I would say probably she looked 25, walked up to me and was like, excuse me, can I. Can I have a moment of your time? And I was like, sure. Young woman. And she was accompanied by an old woman, older woman. And I was like, okay, this is about to be some, like, Christian shit. And she was like, is it okay if I read you a Bible verse? This is a part of this thing we're doing where I'm supposed to reach out to people and read them a Bible verse. And I was like, sure, read me your Bible verse. And I was so curious what she was going to read me. She reads me this verse from Genesis 1:26, and I'll be curious if. If you know where this is going or what church this is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Genesis 1:26 states, Then God said, let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, who is our. There's God. He's a man. But there was also Eve. And he also made Eve. And he said, let us make mankind in our image. So that means there must be a woman, a woman who's there with God. And I was like, this is actually such an interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's a great point. I would have joined. I have no idea who it is. Don't even tell me I'm joining.

[Lola Blanc]

She's like talking about a female God. And I'm like, yeah, if I were into the God thing, this would get me for sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Who was it? What are they?

[Lola Blanc]

So I. It took. It took me a minute to get out of her, where she was from, because she just wanted to. To exchange phone numbers. So that she could talk to me. And I was like, I'm not doing that, sweetie. But I took her phone number down and so she said, it's the church of God. And I was like, the church of God? And she was like, well, it's actually the World Mission Society Church of God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What the fuck is that?

[Lola Blanc]

So I looked it up and spoiler alert, there are people who believe it is a cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Uh oh.

[Lola Blanc]

It is a South Korean based church that essentially believes that a woman in Korea, this elderly woman, is God. She's God, the mother, she's the female image of God there. They believe that there are two images of God. God the father, God the mother, and this old woman in Korea is one of them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm joining.

[Lola Blanc]

They cite other passages that say, like, our mother in Galatians.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Galatians, yeah, Galatians.

[Lola Blanc]

And the spirit and the bride in Revelation. So they're like finding these passages that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sort of imply Jesus.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, she. One of the things she said was like, we think it's Jesus, but there's a mother there.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you're telling me I can go to South Korea, get plastic surgery all day long and talk to people who think God is also a woman?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Have to go to Korea.

[Lola Blanc]

I think you can go to Los Feliz.

[Claire Hoffman]

Cool.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm close.

[Lola Blanc]

But reading their Wikipedia is really interesting because there have been cult accusations, but there also was what appears to be a panic wave about them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

That was not founded. So it's one of these complicated things where it's like, are there problems with this group? There do seem to be, yes. Former members say that it exercises excessive control over. Over its members, enforces family separation, exploits its members, you know, all the cult things. However, there was apparently like a social media panic about human trafficking being linked to the church. And all of the police investigations turned up nothing. They were like, this is nothing. And there was. There was no evidence, no criminal activity. But the rumor just kept spreading through, like, various colleges, I guess because interestingly, they target a lot of young women. What was also so interesting, because I did read that they have been known to kind of like, maybe target people who are vulnerable, but particularly women. I was like, literally on the phone with my mom, like, talking about my breakup, like, sounding upset. And I hang up the phone and one minute later they're next to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It like, she's just like holing out by the Pop Tarts, waiting for a woman, vulnerable woman to come.

[Lola Blanc]

But, like, she clearly is a vulnerable woman. Like, she's so young. Like she clearly believed what she was saying, you know what I mean?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like she's being watched by an older person.

[Lola Blanc]

But the human trafficking allegations, there's no there there. So I think those distinctions are important to make lest we become culty in our thinking as well. That's all I will say about that. So, yeah, I got culted. Culted? I was gonna say flirty fish, but not really. That's not what that is. What do you call that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

You got culted?

[Lola Blanc]

I just got culted.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Congratulations.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Claire Hoffman]

Finally.

[Lola Blanc]

No one ever does that to me. Anyway, speaking of women leaders of churches.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh my gosh, this one's a doozy. Let's jump into it.

[Lola Blanc]

All right.

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Claire Hoffman]

Every age.

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[Lola Blanc]

This next book that you've written, which is a biography, is called Sister Sinner the Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Amy Semple McPherson. So can you just tell us what stuck out to you about this woman, this subject, and made you decide to write this book?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, just kind of as a bridge, you know, I decided in my 20s, I moved to New York, and I was, like, working as a freelance journalist, and I went to journalism school, and then I ended up getting into this program at the University of Chicago Divinity School that was like a master's just for religious studies, for people who want to do other things. So I wanted to be a journalist and write about religion, and I learned about Amy Semple McPherson there, and I just. I was sort of, like, struck by her, you know, I mean, I feel like everybody in America knows who Billy Graham is, and she seemed almost more important and earlier, but she was just this little paragraph or so in a history of American religion book. And, you know. Yeah, I read that she was this pioneer of Pentecostalism and this pioneer of Christian entertainment and started the first mega church, had had one of the first Christian radio stations, and that was. That was it. That was all I read. And I just. Was. Yeah, I just kind of figured, like, oh, that makes sense. That she would be forgotten, because patriarchy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can you kind of, like, give us a thought of who she would be reminiscent of today as she kind of like a. Because as we get into the story, I mean, she's kind of like almost a Kim Kardashian of religion or something.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, it's like if Kim Kardashian and Joel Osteen, but also, like, Gwyneth and Oprah got all mixed together.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you got it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This woman was famous, like. And I've never heard of her in my life until your book. But she, at the time had a giant church bringing in thousands of people, like, using Hollywood. The church was in Hollywood, using it as almost like a. Like she's using the costume designers and bringing in animals and, like, putting on a show.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So how did she begin in the first place? And what was the cultural context for this? Because there was this big Pentecostal shift happening in American religion. Like, tell us about that.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, they sort of, like, all things Pentecostalism came from a bunch of different places, but the sort of defining moment is considered the Azusa street revivals in downtown Los Angeles. Azusa street is like, a little. Almost like an alley if you're in Little Tokyo, just because you guys are there worth checking out. It so speaks to like the history of la. Like, literally a quarter of the world's Christians are now Pentecostal and charismatic. And Azusa street is kind of basically an alley with like a bunch of trash bins and a little gold. A little gold plaque that says, like here marks the site where the site of a global religion. You're like, this is our Jerusalem, you guys.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, I had no idea.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's like a bigger sign for Walt Disney on Gelson.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like Walt Disney used to be here.

[Claire Hoffman]

It's just what, it's what LA values.

[Lola Blanc]

It's true.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

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[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age?

[Claire Hoffman]

Every age.

[Cindy Crawford]

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

[Lola Blanc]

Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Gwen Washington]

Youm think you know Snap Judgment. Yes, it's on NPR. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places at the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Angels, the Webbies, the Gracies, all stood up.

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Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find snap judgment from KQED every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Claire Hoffman]

She was living in Canada. She was a teenager. She was 17, it was 1907. And she went into this church one night to basically make fun of the people there with her father. She had heard that there were holy rulers there, which was sort of what they were calling these, like, early Pentecostals. And the movement had spread from downtown Los Angeles where these revivals were happening for months on end. And people came and like, learned about the doctrine and brought it out into the world. And one of those people was this young Irishman who was living in Chicago working as a shoe salesman. He became a Pentecostal preacher and he made his way north into northern Canada, into Ontario, and he went to this little town and he was preaching there that night. And apparently he was super hot. And I was just gonna say that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He started because he's so hot. The description is like. I was like, yeah, you're like, I'm.

[Lola Blanc]

Attracted to this description and I know why.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Amy was like, you know what? I don't care about school and games anymore. I like religion. I've been. I've been touched by the Holy Ghost.

[Lola Blanc]

Always how it starts.

[Claire Hoffman]

It is actually, though, so important. Like, it's funny, but it's also like you just feel this, like, I mean, to use like a New age term, but like she really felt like a heart opening, right? Like an unlock, you know, where she's just like, ah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's not the fact that an Irish man with bright blue eyes is like.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, super tall with like a little cow look. And he was like five years older than her. And she was like, I'm, I'm in. Everything he said is true, but I think that I just paused there because for her, that romantic feeling seemed to always be part of her ministry. She always spoke in this romantic, rhapsodic way about religion and about Jesus. It was just very sort of a lot of love language. So anyway, I will just speed up and say that she goes through a couple of husbands and becomes an itinerant preacher and sort of tries to be a normal person and it doesn't work out. And she ends up traveling across the southern and eastern United States as a lady evangelist. And people are really interested. Like, it was pretty unusual then, it's pretty unusual now, and people would kind of like come in for the freak show. Of seeing a woman preach. But apparently, like, her charisma really drew people in. And she. I mean, this is why I sort of bring up the Oprah aspect. Like, it was very positive. Like, she wasn't a negative hellfire and brimstone creature. She was really. Yeah, it was very aspirational and loving. It was a very intimate relationship with Jesus. I mean, Pentecostalism, I think, just by its nature, has this thing where you're really connected one on one, on a physical level with the Holy Spirit. I say all this as, like, I'm not a Christian and you guys know more about this than I do, but this is, like, my academic understanding of it.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know about this particular.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, it's my favorite kind of Christianism.

[Lola Blanc]

Christianism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's my favorite kind. Because, I mean, even reading the book, I was like, I can feel this warm and, like, you know, I think.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, more feminine style of preaching.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're a direct conduit. I like that.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I'm curious about, like, what was religion before? Like, how was it evolving? What was the change that was happening?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, it was. I mean, that's a big question, actually.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I just felt like, oh, whoa.

[Claire Hoffman]

That's actually. There's so much that was happening. But I think, in general, I would say in America at that moment, at the turn of the century, you know, there's just a lot of change. And I think that's why it's such an interesting moment to read about right now, because I think people were really scared about the future and technology and, like, the role of humanity and how people would live and how people would work and, I mean, huge amounts of migration into cities and kind of the fracturing of community and family life. And so I think, Amy, my sense from reading a gazillion sermons of hers is, like, she really connected to this sort of individuality and a sense of agency. Like, you could. You could do things. You had power. You had the ability to connect to the divine. You were important. There was also kind of this, like. Yeah, like, really sensuous feeling of being in the world, which I imagine at the same time, everybody's scared that they're gonna become cogs in a factory machine. Probably felt like, restorative. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Reading your book, I was like, I needed her.

[Lola Blanc]

Can we have a new. A new her?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I think there are thousands of hers on tv. There's a lot of hers.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

The confidence that that woman must have had to Decide that she's gonna be a preacher in the nineteen fucking twenties is so wild.

[Claire Hoffman]

It's incredible. She had this mother who just instilled in her a sense of purpose and saw her as divinely prophesied and. Yeah. Who just believed in her in this way that gave Amy a sense of purpose and confidence that she. That's incredible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Her mom is like a religious stage mom.

[Claire Hoffman]

Oh, yeah. I always use Kris Jenner as a parallel.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Her mom is such a religious Kris Jenner. It's like Amish Kris Jenner.

[Claire Hoffman]

And you have to have a Kris.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Jenner no matter what subject you're entering. And. Yeah, you need a stage mom.

[Lola Blanc]

You have to have a Kris Jenner.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Everybody needs a stage mom.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure.

[Claire Hoffman]

Or you have to be your own.

[Lola Blanc]

Stage mom, an inner stage mom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But, you know.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I look at people who succeed, and I think your mom was kind of into it.

[Lola Blanc]

Not everyone. Not everyone. Some people are defying their mothers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

True.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

So she was kind of a pioneer in that. She's like, explain to me how that. What?

[Claire Hoffman]

That was the pioneer part.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

I mean, she. So she kind of crisscrosses the country. She's unusual for being a woman. Oh. She also. Part of Pentecostalism is divine healing. So people start to come see her, and there's the accounts of her performing these miraculous healings. And so this draws ever larger crowds. Her mother Minnie, would sign people up for subscriptions to their magazine along the way and take checks. So it is, you know, there was, like, a little business being built behind her. And they come to Los Angeles in 1918. You know, they're like, supposedly some of the first women to drive alone across the.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Claire Hoffman]

New highways. Yeah, they're really. I mean, she's a cool character and that. She, like, really was this kind of like, pioneer or cowgirl type in a lot of ways. And she really played that up. But they got there, and she just really connects with Los Angeles and sees it as, like, the place that she wants to, like, build stability. And she begins fundraising for what will become the Angelus Temple, which locals called the Million Dollar Temple because it cost so much money. And she did it. Love offering by love offering. She had people become chair holders, kind of capitalizing on the stock mania of the time. So people would tithe a certain amount and get their name on a chair. And she built it, like, bit by bit. And it was built by the Angeles Temple, was built by the same builder as the people who did Grauman's. So it was, like, very movie Palace. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

A grand theater in Los Angeles.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. Yeah. And so just to answer your end of that, she would. By the time it was built, and then she started a radio station the next year, she would perform these big illustrated sermons. And this was, like, really unusual, where she was using entertainment to spread the gospel, which hadn't quite been a thing, the way that she made it a thing. You know, I mean, she would just. You mentioned this earlier, but, yeah, like, she would have animals and props and a giant, like, huge orchestra and choir and.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Claire Hoffman]

You know, just all this. So, I mean, it fit 5,300 people seated, but apparently it was often closer to 6,000 inside. And then they would set up loudspeakers outside. And on Sundays, I think they would get over 15,000 people because they would do three services a day. So it was just gigantic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How did it even get so much money?

[Lola Blanc]

How did it get that big? Like, how did people find out?

[Claire Hoffman]

It was word of mouth. And this became an issue because, like, a lot of rival pastors were, like, mad because people would leave their churches to go to that one, which you're like a. You could just sit there and listen to, like, some guy drone on about hell, or you could go watch, like, tigers and fire and, you know, this kind of gorgeous lady, you know, talking about Jesus.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I know who I would choose.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And she's giving you a sense of, like, more agency and, like. Yeah, you matter to. Of course you're gonna choose that.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Don't you think that Amy Lee from the Righteous Gemstones is named after her? Maybe.

[Claire Hoffman]

Probably. I love the Righteous Gemstones.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Me, too. That just came to me. Anyway.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, it sounds like she just was the first influencer, almost like.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Or at least in that religious.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

I mean, that's sort of, you know, looking towards the rest of her life. What became challenging, I would say without saying too much, is that she used herself as the product, so to speak. And, I mean, of course, that's something everybody does now, but it was kind of an unusual approach at the time. You know, I mean, this is like celebrities just sort of being invented at that moment. And, you know, her most famous sermon was the story of my life. And everybody knew who her mother was, they knew who her kids were. Like, she talked about she used her life to preach the gospel, and she interwove herself into everything, you know, and her picture was often on the front page of her magazine, like Oprah. I mean, so it was just, like, you really connected to who she was. But I think that can have problems.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think that, like, looking back on it now, like, was there ever any element of control of her followers, or was it really more like influencer style, where she's. It's more about just having a following.

[Claire Hoffman]

I didn't see control, so to speak, but, you know, I mean, everybody's dead, so it's hard to know. I mean, you know what I mean? But there aren't, like. I mean, there was a. To flash forward. In the late 1920s, one of her assistant pastors wrote this book about her called Amy the Gospel Gold Digger. And it was mostly just about the performance of her and the like, you know, like, that she would get a huge thing of roses every night and.

[Lola Blanc]

Be like, oh, thank you.

[Claire Hoffman]

You guys love me so much. Thank you. But she was having them sent to herself.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Claire Hoffman]

You know, and he was like, she's a fraud. You know, this woman.

[Lola Blanc]

So she's iconic.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. No, she is wild. Yeah, yeah, she is extra.

[Lola Blanc]

So can you explain the feeding 1.5 million people thing?

[Claire Hoffman]

Sure. I mean, essentially, as far as I can tell, you know, she started the soup kitchen right away in. Right after the. The stock market fell apart in 29, and the city was like. I mean, the city was like, not so powerful of a city yet. And so the firemen and the police and the Women's Auxiliary, they would all come down and work through her soup kitchen and her services to. To do outreach. So they became kind of like the conduit for outreach to the poor. I mean, does that make sense?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty sick.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's pretty awesome.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

No, I mean, it's this. She's like, this is why I love her, is because she's like a riddle, you know, I mean, she's. She did a lot of amazing things. And I think, you know, my sense of her is that she was such a true believer, especially in the first half of her life. I think she was a true believer throughout. But you get a sense of, like, almost kind of shamanic style at the beginning where she's traveling around, just like. Like following the voice of God. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, she's 19, 26. You know, her church has been open for three years. Her radio is. Radio station goes up and down the West Coast. She's become, like, more politically involved, so she's taking a stand on local issues. She's fighting corruption in City hall and the LA underworld. And there's signs of strain, you know, like, there's starting to be little Cracks in the seam. People in our congregation center on a vacation to Palestine, as that's where you vacationed in 1926.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. But there starts to be, like, also, like, whispers of an affair maybe with a employee who quits around this time. Her radio operator, who was very key part of the functioning of the temple and to kind of blow off steam. She begins to go down to Venice beach in the afternoons to swim in the ocean and to work on her sermons. And so on May 18, 1926, she goes down with her assistant. They sit on their beach towels and they. She starts working on a sermon about light and darkness. And she sends her assistant off to make a phone call. Her assistant sees her walk into the ocean and she disappears.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I mean, literally, she's gone.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, she's gone. So what?

[Claire Hoffman]

She's gone.

[Lola Blanc]

What. What did her assistant do? What was the reaction?

[Claire Hoffman]

Her assistant freaked out and, you know, starts walking up and down the beach, you know, asking lifeguards to look for her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She literally lost Oprah.

[Claire Hoffman]

She lost Oprah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You had one job and you have to be like, she's missing. That. That would be.

[Lola Blanc]

My God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's freaking out.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. And it's also like Oprah, but maybe like in Santa Barbara, you know what I mean? Because it's not like, Ellie's not that big yet, so it' it's just kind of unfathomable. And she is worried that she's drowned. So lifeguards start looking for her. They notify the owner of the hotel where they had rented the beach blankets and the umbrella from. And, you know, around 4:30 that afternoon, they called the temple to tell her mother, like, hey, like, she's missing. We're looking for her. And her mother was like, she's dead. She's dead. Just bring the car back. Get her stuff. Holy. Yeah, it's a crazy reaction.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

That I'm still like, maybe kind of parsing.

[Lola Blanc]

Honestly, if that was my mom's reaction, I'd be pissed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

She's gone.

[Claire Hoffman]

She's gone. Get her stuff.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's a religious detachment that happens, though, when. When you are that religious or she didn't really believe that she was dead, either, or.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But like, I have seen in the two by twos, people be like, they're with Jesus now. They're dead.

[Lola Blanc]

Because they're like, I'm gonna see them in like 10 years.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was some of that. And I think there was right away, just for you Guys, I would say, like, she. I think right away there was a sense almost from her mom, or like the language that was used was as if she'd been raptured.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh.

[Claire Hoffman]

You know, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that's why she's not even.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, she damaged.

[Claire Hoffman]

She didn't drown.

[Lola Blanc]

She vanished because she's so righteous and virtuous.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. There's a funny thing with the district attorney at one point where he's like, I don't understand what you mean. Like, what do you mean she went to the Lord? You mean she died? You know, and you're like, oh, he's. She's talking about the rapture, then doesn't want to explain it.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Claire Hoffman]

But yeah. Yeah. So they. It becomes just this citywide news story. Right. So tens of thousands of people come down to the beach. I think within days, there's 40,000 people gathered on the beach holding a vigil, looking for her. Her. They're scraping the bottom of the ocean. There's planes and boats and divers. One diver dies looking for her. Another devotee, like, jumps in the water to be with her and dies. Or two people die. They're printing news stories every day of, like, the family and the mother, but also, like, the radio operator, you know, like, there's just like. It's just a big cauldron. Crazy kind of. Of pre. Reality tv. Yeah. Scandal. And about a month in, they hold a memorial service where they raise half a million dollars in today's money for her. And 36 days after she disappears, she walks in from the deserts of Mexico, 600 miles away into somebody's backyard and asks for a telephone. And they take her to a hospital. And in the hospital, she tells them that she was kidnapped into what she called white slavery by the underworld. And she had been held a prisoner. She'd been tortured, and she had been being punished for her virtuous acts. And right away there's questions.

[Lola Blanc]

So she just call. She calls LA and she's like, I've been in white slavery. And they're like, sounds good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, I mean, it's worth noting that she had been. Somebody had tried to kidnap her before.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Kind of a Jennifer Aniston thing where she's like. Like she had stalkers. Jennifer Aniston just got a stalker arrested. So, like, she. She's had. She has stalkers. She has people trying to kidnap her.

[Lola Blanc]

So it's not out of the realm.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's not believability. So it's not completely out of left field, right?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yes, exactly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Claire Hoffman]

Thank you good reader. Good reader.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm just like, trying to put it. Because some people did believe her.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. I think at first everybody believed her.

[Lola Blanc]

Of course, this happens to very famous people. So that's not crazy, right?

[Claire Hoffman]

It wasn't. It wasn't so crazy. I think the issue was right away that the questions came because when she walked into the desert, out from the desert, she was wearing all white. She was wearing a corset and a white dress and kind of like white ballet slippers. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Aesthetic.

[Claire Hoffman]

And they're like, oh, you're so clean. Like, that was the. The guy in Mexico founder. This guy was like this. You know, sometimes there's like drunk women who wander through the desert. But this lady was very clean and she wasn't sunburned. Like, she didn't have, like, you know, plants on her. But she had said she had run for, I think it was 20 miles, some crazy amount, you know, and. And made her way through the desert. And so they right away, you know, are looking for the kidnappers. They don't find any evidence of the shack where she said she was escaped from and the lawn, you know, I mean, it's in Mexico. And like, the Mexican government's kind of annoyed about it because they're like, we know this land. There's no shack.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, you couldn't.

[Claire Hoffman]

Somebody like. This isn't like nowhere, it's somewhere.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, she started so much drama. It's like one o' clock in the morning. This guy's just trying to go to bed. Nobody's like, nobody can understand her. They have to go find somebody. And she's just like. She's just a poer.

[Claire Hoffman]

I mean, by handful, I mean, this is in the book. But Dorothy Parker called her Our lady of the Loudspeaker. And the whole thing was just like, shut up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, she was loud. She was loud. But, you know, they. They don't find any evidence of the shack. And she comes back to Los Angeles and there's a grand jury hearing to sort of. Ostensibly to look for the kidnappers. But really quickly, the sort of questions and the witnesses start to more be about Amy's life and her business practices and her romantic life and who she is and how she's conducted herself. And, you know, my sense is. Yeah, I mean, this is kind of the heart of the book. So they end up dismissing the grand jury without calling for charges against the kidnappers. And she could have, at that moment, sort of let it go, you know, like they. It would have just been dropped. But she she sort of railed against the law enforcement for not finding them. And within a couple of weeks, if even that much, there is. Starts to be, like, witnesses who come out who say that actually she was in Northern California, in Carmel by the sea, in a love shack with a rented cottage, with the radio operator.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, scandalous.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And two people have died looking for you.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, like, do you have theories on her motivation?

[Claire Hoffman]

I mean, sure. Yeah. I mean, I tried to make the book, and I've gotten, like, a little bit of blowback for this. I tried to really stick with the facts for the book. Just. I mean, partially just being a journalist, but also. I mean, it's a hundred years, and there's never been a clear answer on what happened. From the moment she walked in from the desert of Mexico till the day she died. Told pretty much the same story about what happened kind of verbatim. Right. And there are just a bunch of witnesses who say that she was in Carmel with this guy. And this guy definitely wasn't Carmel. He ended up confessing to it. He was a married man who had left his wife, who was an Australian ice cream heiress. I mean, the great thing about this story. Yeah. Is that, like. I mean, I feel like I can say anything that happened because the story itself, like, there's so many crazy characters. Los Angeles at this time was just, like, bananas. You know, there's like, the only person who she could find who said that they had actually seen the kidnappers was this blind lawyer from the port of Long beach who is the sole eyewitness who, like, worked for gangsters and was a distant cousin of President McKinley, who I won't be giving anything away to say, dies during the investigation by drowning in a. A ditch with one feet of water.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, dude, it's.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, this.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to watch the show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I do, too. I mean, how did she get. How'd she get out of the ocean?

[Claire Hoffman]

Well, so her version of events is that when she had spum. Some laps, she was walking out, and a couple comes up to her on the beach, like, near the waterline, and they're like, hey, you know, our kid's really sick in the car. Like, will you come heal the baby? Like, we. We heard you were here. And she's like, how did you know I was here? And they say, oh, we went to the temple downtown, but your mother said that you were here, so just please come now. Like, the baby's gonna die. And Amy was, like, kind of used to being treated like that, like, oh, like a. Emergency service like, oh, yes, I need to heal this person immediately. So that wasn't so unusual. And so she says, like, oh, let me just go grab my clothes. And they're like, no, no, come now. They throw, like, a coat over her shoulders and up to the street where there's a car waiting. And she. They open the back seat to show her the baby. She sees somebody sitting back there, and they slam her in the car and put chemicals over her mouth, and she passes out and they drive her away.

[Lola Blanc]

But, Megan, you don't think it's feasible she just walked to a different part of the beach?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I do, I do, I do, I do. I'm just curious.

[Lola Blanc]

She did not go into the ocean. And then a boat is a picture.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, no, no. It's so odd that nobody saw this happen, you know, like.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing. Like, there are, you know, the. The. I believe I'm saying this from memory, that the head of the Culver City Police Department said he saw her driving away from the beach with a man.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, that sounds more maybe accurate than the blind lawyer.

[Claire Hoffman]

Like, Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. And then, you know, I mean, right away, even when she's coming back to LA from Arizona, she's on this train and the train is stopping at these different towns, and somebody gets on the train, she's stopping and giving, like, radio preaching. Like, they set up microphones at the. At each stop so she can preach to people and people can hear her. And, you know, this is like 48 hours after she's come in from the desert, and there's a guy who comes in, I believe it was from Tulsa, and he's like, a city official there, and he's like, I saw you, like, three days ago walking around Tulsa. Uh, oh, with a man. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Just like, initially hearing the story, my thought was, oh, well, she just, like, wanted the attention that it would give her because, you know, sometimes people fake having cancer. They fake.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She had a little Munch Munchausen for being kidnapped of herself.

[Lola Blanc]

That's a thing that happens.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely. I feel like when I was, like, 12, I would have done something like that.

[Lola Blanc]

That. That's insane.

[Claire Hoffman]

Have a childlike spirit, you know, and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You'Re like, I'm running away and I'm kidnapped.

[Lola Blanc]

I was kidnapped.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Give me attention and oops.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I raised $500,000. Shoot.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But the fact that she was just, like, seemingly having, like, a sordid love affair makes it more interesting because you're like, is she just looking to like, be with this guy and she can't really, like, do it in la. And so she devised an elaborate scheme just to, like, get away with it. But of course there was. She knew the money was going to happen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, she's a complex character.

[Claire Hoffman]

It's complex, yeah. I mean, I kind of want people to draw their own conclusions. She did, in the years after her trial, suffer a lot of mental breakdowns, as she called them. So I think there was, you know, a lot going on for her, I would say. I think also on the sort of empathetic front. She lived in this tiny two bedroom apartment attached to the church and she was incredibly famous and 36 and, you know, had been married when she was 17 and lost that husband to typhoid and then had the second husband who seemed to be a bit of a disappointment for her, who she left. And so you're kind of like, well, she's 36, she's incredibly famous, she's in her prime and she can have no privacy and no, yeah, like, no sex life, no romantic life, and she's not really allowed to be something else. And I feel like giving her like a little bit of grace or empathy. You can kind of imagine that for whatever the reason was she decided to do this thing and for whatever the reason was that she decided to come back, she convinced herself of its reality. That's. I mean, if you're asking me what I think that's. That's sort of my analysis of it. But I. I mean, my hope is some people will read it and be like, falsely accused.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely. I think everybody's gonna have their own conclusion. And I go back and forth, to be honest. So mission accomplished.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, there's no, there's no smoking gun. There's nothing that's like, definitive. You know, they never found any, like, truly solid. I mean, there's. Well, there's a lot of evidence which you can read.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, the book is fantastic and I think it just brings up so many amazing parallels to what we talk about a lot and.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, what's your takeaway in terms of like, just like how we view religious figures and famous people and how we sort of hold them up either in adoration and idealization or in hatred before them being, you know, evil and harmful. Like, how do these stories kind of shape your perspective on those things?

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, I think, think to go back to when we were talking about my own experience, I feel like that was one of my takeaways from doing the TM book is like, I probably Went in, starting that memoir, pretty negative on TM and Maharishi. And by the end, I had this. Just more ambiguity, I would say, which is like a place that feels more true to me these days. And I think with Amy, you just see, like, this idea of what was good and bad, you know, what was right and wrong being so binary and that she wasn't really allowed to be complex. And so, yeah, I see. This was like sort of a punch out into crazy. Right? That was the choice.

[Lola Blanc]

And then.

[Claire Hoffman]

And, you know, I mean, the last chapters of the book deal with the cost to her, which was enormous. I mean, she lived for, I believe, 17, 18 more years after the trial. But that fame and that criticism just kind of ate her from the inside, you know, and there was bad behavior, continued bad behavior. There were a lot of lawsuits. She ended up estranged from her family. So I think in terms of fame, you just see the cost of projecting, like, a. A single version of yourself and. And committing to it, you know, and being like, this is who I am.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Such a good way of saying it.

[Claire Hoffman]

But you know what I mean? Like, I would never want to do that.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, I would.

[Claire Hoffman]

Never mind. To be like, oh, you're not. You're different than you were in 2017. Who even remembers 2017, you know? Yeah, but when you turn that self into a commodity and you're selling it and people are worshiping it, you know, like, that just. It gets really complex. And. And so I think deviance can happen. Right? Like, that's. I mean, for one of a more nuanced word. But I think you see that in a lot of church leadership. I think you see it in a lot of celebrities, right? Like, where they're like, okay, this is going to be what I'm selling, this version of myself, but I'm going to rebel in all these other ways.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, I just think of priests or, like, religious figures in general who are meant to be completely repressed and so frequently aren't behind closed doors or they're acting out in rejection of that repression, I guess.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's just.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a really fascinating Britney shaving her head. I mean.

[Claire Hoffman]

Right, right. I mean, the original cover of this book was a different photo that I kept being like, please don't put that on there. That's like when Britney shaved her head. Like, that's the Britney shaving her head home moment. Like, you want this picture, you know, like, you don't want this sad. You know, there was a point. I mean, she had a bad facelift and she Was estranged from her family. And it's.

[Lola Blanc]

They had facelifts back then.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah. In 1930, she had a facelift with her mother and then they got in a fistfight. But you can just read this in the book.

[Lola Blanc]

It's crazy.

[Claire Hoffman]

It's crazy. And then for the full Britney thing, you know, she ended up in a conservatorship.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So are people just not meant to be famous?

[Claire Hoffman]

So. Yeah, I think it is.

[Lola Blanc]

I think it's a prison.

[Claire Hoffman]

It seems like the worst.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah. And making kids do it is extra me.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, Yeah. I think anytime we elevate somebody else above us and, like, attribute special powers to them and kind of worship them in whatever way for it and decide, like, they're different than me and they get to act a different way and behave a different way and are going to be treated a different way. It's just like. It's like a psychological experiment, you know? Like, it immediately seems to go wrong.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great point.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. But then we just so naturally gravitate. Like, hierarchy just naturally forms. And how do you. What do you. What do you do about it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

You stay alone in your room. You don't look at anyone.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you don't form relationships, and then you're safe.

[Lola Blanc]

Perfect. Sounds like a happy life.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's the only way. I cannot make hierarchies happen.

[Claire Hoffman]

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, the book is absolutely amazing. Tell us where they can find you. Tell us everything.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, I've been traveling around. I'm sort of on the tail end of it. I'll be in New York next week, and I have a couple stops over the next few months. But the book is for sale everywhere that books are sold.

[Lola Blanc]

And tell us the name one more time.

[Claire Hoffman]

It is Sister. The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Amy Semple McPherson.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Amazing Original Kim Kardashian disappearance story for the ages. Get in it. It is a page turner. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to us.

[Claire Hoffman]

Thanks, you guys. This was amazing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wowie. Wow, wow, wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Damn. Can't believe I never heard of this woman.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I. I would really love to see the biopic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Can't even lie. Do you think, Megan, that you would join Amy Semple McPherson's church yesterday?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Signed me up yesterday. Take me on the time machine, bring me back. Sign me up. I love her. I want to be in her church. I want to watch the show. Oh, and I even want to work for her.

[Claire Hoffman]

Why?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because she Was like, putting on basically, carnival shows for the Sunday things. Like, she was a. She was just ahead of her time. She was fun, she was funny. Like, I mean, it really sucks that two people died looking for her.

[Lola Blanc]

But, yeah, if you were her follower at that time, I'm like, what would disillusion you? It'd be the lie, I guess, mainly, right? The lie that the fact people died.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I'd protect her and I'd go, hey, you guys, we pushed her into that. I'd double down on it.

[Lola Blanc]

But then, like, also, she wanted to go, yeah. The inner workings of a human mind, you just never know what the true motivation is. And this is why the biopic will explore these questions. Hire me to direct it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

I think I'd be fascinated by her. I watch the Kardashians, you know what I mean? Like, I. I'm fascinated by women icons in culture. Even if I don't always like what they're doing, I find it very fascinating. And I still always just, like, love watching women content. So, like, I think I. I think I'd be, like, into it even if I was like, this bitch is.

[Claire Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I just love the carnival.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Selling snake oil. Yeah, totally. I mean, I guess that's not true, though, because there are televangelists now who are women. Right. And I do not want to watch them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No. I mean, she was ahead of her time. That's the whole point. Like, it's been done. Tammy Faye Baker, like. Like, that was still kind of an iconic moment. She was kind of major, but after that, like, we're over it.

[Lola Blanc]

The language you've used in that sentence, so funny. Kind of major, iconic. We're over it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, yeah, we've seen it.

[Lola Blanc]

No, we haven't seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's why. Yeah, Maybe at the time I'd be like, wow, groundbreaking.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thanks for listening to us, guys.

[Lola Blanc]

I am gonna plug my own song here. I think it was, like, relevant topically. Also directed a music video for it, guys. And I take my own heart out on stage. So if you want to watch that, Google everybody. Lola Blanc music video or some version of that. You don't have to Google in that exact order.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just Google it.

[Lola Blanc]

It's on my YouTube. So we're going to play it. We're going to go out on my song, Everybody.

[Lola Blanc (Singing)]

When I get a hit of addition Start to thinking so zeros and ones I become a mathematician Counting up the trophies of one hungering for gratification But I don't have a problem Swear it's nothing like a fixation Swear that I'm not coming undone Fill the hole with the follow Save my soul I All I need is for everybody everybody when everybody loves me Then I'll finally be happy Then I'll finally rest.

[Lola Blanc]

And when.

[Lola Blanc (Singing)]

Everyone around me says that I I'm astounding When I'm finally the best Something's coming up oh, don't look now that's a no no Take two pills and a swallow Go stuck in the pursuit of perfection Bend my body twisted around late at night Loop on the obsession how to not let anyone down Jolly for standing ovation but after they give me the crown still alone with all my ambition was look at me now Everybody, everybody When everybody loves me Then I'll finally be happy Then I'll finally rest and when everyone around me says that I am astounding When I'm finally the best Can I find a cure? Do you ever dream about it? Can you really live without it? Never ever stop to doubt it can you really live without it? I can't I can not at all not at all not at all when everybody loves me I'll finally be happy I'll finally rest and when everyone around me says I'm astounding When I am the best Everybody, everybody When everybody loves me Then I'll finally be happy Then I'll finally raise and when everyone around me says that I am astounding When I'm finally the best and then I'll finally.

[Claire Hoffman]

Cure.

[Lola Blanc (Singing)]

I'll fly I'll finally cure this loneliness.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan, take it away.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Alrighty. Thank you for spending another week with us. As always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hartstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram, Usme podcast or on TikTok UsmeCult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation?

[Lola Blanc]

Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Claire Hoffman]

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