Dr. Christine Marie - Undercover in a Cult Town: Taking Down False Prophet Sam Bateman

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Dr. Christine Marie - Undercover in a Cult Town: Taking Down False Prophet Sam Bateman
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Dr. Christine Marie
Release Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features the extraordinary story of Dr. Christine Marie, an anti-cult activist, psychologist, and mother of co-host Lola Blanc. Christine returns to Trust Me to recount her daring undercover work helping expose and dismantle the abusive cult led by self-proclaimed prophet Sam Bateman in the FLDS-dominated town of Short Creek (Hilldale, UT/Colorado City, AZ). The discussion explores Christine’s motivations, how she became infiltrated into the community, her shifting perspective on polygamy and harm reduction, her collaboration with the FBI, and the emotional fallout—culminating in the dramatic raid that brought Bateman to justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Moving to Short Creek & Early Activism

[10:52–14:47]

• Christine and her husband Tolga moved from Las Vegas to Short Creek aiming to support survivors of polygamous cults and human trafficking.

  • Quote [10:52]:
    “I wanted to be helpful to people who had gone through something similar to me... So I was doing activism and advocacy anyway for survivors of human trafficking and survivors of polygamous cults.” — Dr. Christine Marie

• Motivated to open a sanctuary, she tried (unsuccessfully) to buy Warren Jeffs’ infamous 42-bedroom mansion to create healing retreats for survivors:

  • Quote [12:14]:
    “I wanted a bigger house... I had the opportunity to buy Warren Jeffs’ mansion...” — Dr. Christine Marie

• Discovered that buying the prophet’s home would be seen as “desecrating” by FLDS followers and abandoned the plan.

• Christine notes the utilitarian design of polygamist homes:

  • "It's more utilitarian, mostly practical." — Dr. Christine Marie [14:18]

---

Investigating Short Creek: Housing, Rights, & Trust

[15:00–17:21]

• Christine witnessed FLDS members evicted from tax-paid homes due to refusal to sign legal occupancy agreements (perceived as religious violations), sparking her civil rights advocacy.

  • Quote [15:00]:
    “People were being evicted from homes with the taxes fully paid that had no mortgage. That seemed like a violation of civil rights to me.” — Dr. Christine Marie

• Overcame her anti-polygamy bias, shifting from a judgmental stance to one of harm reduction and compassion.

  • “You cannot change minds with facts and attacks.” — Dr. Christine Marie [21:15]

---

Reframing Activism: From Anti-Polygamy to Harm Reduction

[17:22–25:50]

• Christine describes her own experience with "spiritual polygamy" and how, after recovery, she realized coercion was the true issue, not consensual polyamory.

  • “It’s not whether I believe in polygamy... I put down my weapons of war and realized you cannot change minds with facts and attacks.” — Dr. Christine Marie [21:15]

• She recounts publicly debating the Sister Wives cast, emphasizing coercion versus choice.

• Embraces harm reduction and connection—staying close to those still in cults, resisting pressure to shun, and countering the idea that helping people in abusive systems is an endorsement.

  • “It doesn’t make sense to cut people off if you have even the slightest goal to help them someday...” — Dr. Christine Marie [25:18]

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The Rise of Sam Bateman

[30:14–41:56]

• Bateman, introduced by a FLDS acquaintance, impressed Christine and Tolga with elaborate memorized poetry and zealous testimonies. Eventually, his manipulations and history of abuse unraveled.

  • “He recited this long poem... But later we learned he spent weeks memorizing it and months writing it.” — Dr. Christine Marie [31:18]
  • “His wife divorced him because he made a pass at his daughter... when she was 10.” — Dr. Christine Marie [32:47]

• Post-divorce, Bateman abruptly returns with two carloads of wives and children, having recruited three wealthy FLDS families by positioning himself as Warren Jeffs’ spiritual successor—offering hope for marriages, babies, and redemption.

  • “I am the messenger for Warren Jeffs... and we’re starting marriages again.” — Dr. Christine Marie [37:28]
  • “Marriage and babies. Right. Gone since 2006.” — Lola Blanc [37:19]

---

The Psychology of Cult Leadership & Followership

[41:57–45:39]

• The cult's origin in the schism from the mainstream LDS church is discussed, with emphasis on the culture’s openness to new self-appointed prophets.

  • “That is what we believed and many people believe. So you don’t have to do the thinking... you just trust the authorities.” — Dr. Christine Marie [41:56]

• Bateman exploited spiritual authority, offering ostracized men and their families forgiveness and community, inducing compliance through both religious promise and threats.

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Abuse, Coercion, and Blood Atonement

[47:58–53:14]

• Bateman escalated control by teaching "blood atonement"—the idea that some sins require the spilling of the sinner’s own blood, creating a climate of mortal fear and absolute compliance.

  • Quote [48:13]:
    “Anybody who knowingly goes against the prophet [qualifies for blood atonement].” — Dr. Christine Marie [49:08]

• Parallel is drawn to other fundamentalist Mormon sects with histories of violent enforcement.

---

Going Undercover & Working with Law Enforcement

[53:18–58:23]

• Christine and Tolga began filming Bateman and his followers—at Bateman's own request—amassing significant documentary evidence of his teachings and admissions.

  • “He was calling us, his wives were calling us... they were coming to our house to be filmed. So they were like throwing themselves in front of the camera.” — Dr. Christine Marie [54:02]

• Frustration mounted as local law enforcement delayed acting, despite powerful evidence—including Bateman’s recorded confessions and victim testimonies.

  • “Even though there were victims on the tape, if they still believed in him and would lie for him, they wouldn’t pursue.” — Dr. Christine Marie [57:26]

• A breakthrough occurred when a victim bravely agreed to cooperate.

---

Collaboration with the FBI & Preparing for the Raid

[60:49–69:17]

• Christine’s ability to maintain empathy and trust with Bateman’s followers enabled one of them, Julia, to open up and provide actionable evidence, initiating coordination with the FBI’s Special Agent Dawn.

  • “Because I hadn’t attacked the Samulites... a victim felt like I was a safe person to come to, so she did.” — Dr. Christine Marie [60:49]

• The team surreptitiously moved Julia’s belongings out from the compound, preparing for her safety during the raid.

  • “Julia would put boxes of her stuff in these bins... Mikel would take those bins, put them in her car. So people at the house thought it was cleaning supplies, but we were moving her out.” — Dr. Christine Marie [68:00]

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The Raid and Its Aftermath

[69:28–74:12]

• Christine and Tolga emotionally prepared for the worst; the raid was executed without violence, thanks in large part to Christine’s groundwork and relationship-building.

  • Quote [69:46]:
    “The night before, Tolga and I had a hugging, crying session—if anything happens to you, I want you to know you were the best husband...” — Dr. Christine Marie

• Law enforcement, not knowing their informant status, subjected them to the same protocols as others.

• The psychological impact was immense; Christine reveals the difficulty of “betraying” trust for a higher good and the therapeutic support she needed to navigate that burden.

  • “I love these people so much. I still do, even though they hate me. Even though I know that's not who they really are. And I just didn't want to add to their suffering. ...I had to come to the conclusion that I was hurting them for their own good.” — Dr. Christine Marie [72:34]

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Reflection & Healing: Media, Victim Dignity, and Triumph

[74:12–79:52]

• Christine expresses gratitude for the ethical, nuanced portrayal of survivors in the documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, emphasizing the healing power of being seen and treated with dignity—counteracting earlier media victim-shaming.
  • “I feel really overjoyed... I couldn't have done it better because the public response has been to want to embrace these victims.” — Dr. Christine Marie [74:46]
  • “This was the story of three women... who had all suffered abuse, who came together and took down a monster. Yeah, it was girl power.” — Dr. Christine Marie [78:15]
  • "It's turning trauma into triumph." — Dr. Christine Marie [81:30]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Christine’s stance on activism:
  “You can't change minds with facts and attacks.” [21:15]

• On staying connected:
  "The best way that you can help is to stay connected, so they have some connection to the outside world... Otherwise they're just stuck in their closed system." — Lola Blanc [26:33]

• On the difficulty of the undercover double life:
  “I had to get therapy, you know, to live that double life and to deal with the anticipation of how much I was going to hurt them. But I had to come to the conclusion that I was hurting them for their own good.” — Dr. Christine Marie [72:34]

• After the raid:
  "I suppose it would be like running a marathon and winning. And then for three days afterwards you've got like still all this nervous energy, but it's happy." — Dr. Christine Marie [73:54]

---

Emotional & Ethical Themes

• Harm reduction and compassion vs. judgment and shunning.
• The incredible bravery of survivors, especially those who come forward.
• The risk and complexity of facilitating law enforcement intervention from the inside.
• The healing power of being accurately represented in media and breaking victim-shaming cycles.
• Turning personal trauma into wider cultural change and support for others.

---

Callback to Previous Episodes

• References made to Lola and Christine’s original cult experience, as shared in the podcast’s first episode.
• Reflection on other cult-survivor guests using similar strategies of empathy and connection to support those still inside abusive systems.
• Repeated themes from previous guests and experts about the importance of "staying connected" for exit pathways.

---

Timestamps to Key Segments

• Why Christine moved to Short Creek: [10:52]
• Housing rights and building trust: [15:00]
• Shifting from anti-polygamy to harm reduction: [17:12]
• First encounters with Sam Bateman: [30:14]
• Bateman’s manipulations, abuses, and “blood atonement”: [47:58]
• Undercover work and law enforcement: [53:18]
• FBI involvement & the raid: [60:49], [69:28]
• Dealing with aftermath and guilt: [72:34]
• Reflection on documentary & media representation: [74:12]
• Resilience and post-traumatic growth: [81:24]

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Where to Learn More

• Follow Dr. Christine Marie: Instagram/TikTok - @Dr.ChristyMarie ([82:07])
• Website: ChristineMarie.com with resources for survivors ([82:19])
• Watch: Trust Me: The False Prophet on Netflix
• Listen: Previous and upcoming Trust Me episodes featuring related stories

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Final Note

Christine’s journey stands as a testament to the power of empathy, courage, and survivor-led advocacy in combating organized abuse. This episode also reminds listeners that trauma can serve as a catalyst for transformation and justice—if given the chance to be heard.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

Only 9.99. Yeah, that sounds like the move.

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[Lola Blanc]

Mmm.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Commercial Voiceover]

Trust me. Do you trust me?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me.

[Commercial Voiceover]

This is the trut only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two trustees who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And this week, my mom, Dr. Christine Marie. And this podcast's very first guest, years ago, comes back on the show to talk about how she moved to the FLDS town, Short Creek. How she and my stepdad Tolga earned the trust of the new self proclaimed polygamous prophet in town, Sam Bateman. And she'll tell us what else was going on behind the scenes in the town besides what you can see in the Netflix docu series Trust Me, the False Prophet. No correlation. Except also kind of because she's my mom and my song is in it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She'll tell us about her frustrations with the speed of the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI, the bravery of all of the women involved, and being there for the raid that finally landed Sam Bateman in prison for sexual abuse and probably some other

[Lola Blanc]

charges I haven't been following, but I know there's some court stuff going on. All that and more so, so soon. So excited to have my mama back and to hear about the crazy fucking shit she's been doing since her last appearance on this podcast. Megan, before we jump in with mom, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so there is a sect out of Hawaii called the Science of Identity foundation, or SIF, that I've never really heard of, but it's making news right now. It's run by this guy named Chris Butler, who everybody says controls the members lives, completely isolates them, has a ton of control over them. And our former Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, has apparently been a member her whole life and so is her family. And there's a Washington Post article titled Tulsi Gabbard, Her Guru and the Mysterious Messages that Help Shape Her Political Career. The article is written by John Swain, and it's kind of a leak of all these memos of the group telling her how to vote.

[Lola Blanc]

Also literally what to say. I mean, there are some instances of. Basically verbatim. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's. It's just another example of what we've been talking about for so long, which is a lot of these groups pushing their members into the political sphere because they want more control. So she has resigned. But worth noting, never had heard of that group.

[Lola Blanc]

Oddly, I had not either. But, you know, there are endless cults.

[Capella University Announcer]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I think the implications for this are kind of wild because she has had a very prominent and powerful political career that has been sort of confusing. She's like changed political sides and no one really understood why. But then apparently that, like, if you look back through some of these directives that she seemed to have gotten from the leader, that might be the reason she's one of the people being. Has been anointed to, like, guide policy that suits the group potentially.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Indeed.

[Lola Blanc]

Allegedly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Allegedly.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I'm gonna stay on top of the story, everybody. Don't even worry about it. I'm on the case. Updates to come.

[Lola Blanc]

Meghan's on the case.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

Um, I came across this article when I was looking up a guest we're gonna have on soon. And I have. I happened upon an article called Distinctive Language Reveals Likely Conspiracy community users across 500 million Reddit comments. This is on phys.org p-h y-s.org by Polytechnic University of Milan. So, anyway, basically the article is talking about a study that came out recently in which these researchers used psycholinguistic analysis tools and AI models on 500 million comments. Their goal was to find out whether it was possible to kind of identify users that were going to become active in the conspiracy parts of Reddit using only their language in mainstream contexts. And the results of this showed they were using recognizable language with an average accuracy of 87%, even years before they explicitly joined conspiracy theory communities, which I thought was really interesting. Interesting. It's not that they're all using the same language. It's like community by community. The language changes slightly, but there are. This part I thought was maybe the most interesting. Among the most recurring linguistic elements are a greater presence of anger, anxiety, and references to conflict, illness and death, as well as more frequent use of aggressive or emotionally charged language. So the people posting a lot about these sort of high stress things and feelings and events using particular language, like it was able to predict with a very accurate rate whether they would ultimately go on to become conspiracy theorists. Well, it's super, super interesting to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, conspiracy theorists is so broad now. I feel like since so many conspiracies are like, oh, that was kind of real. What exactly?

[Lola Blanc]

Like they would participate in like conspiracy parts of Reddit that were known to be sort of extremist, not rooted in science. Basically, like we're talking lizard, literal lizard people. You know, all of the sort of classic go to conspiracies. People who used this particular identifiable language ended up in those parts of the Internet, which to me is super fascinating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I can't wait to read more about that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it's just, you know, I would hope that one day we would be able to identify if somebody is like in a period of their life where they're having stress and, you know, potentially like, I don't know, maybe it's too Minority Report dystopian, but intervene. So, you know. Yeah, but that's probably not possible anyway, things to mull over. But now I think we should probably mull over my mom's incredible story and this work that she has been doing in Short Creek.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A.

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

See terms.

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

Monday, 24 nuggets for $10.

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

Wednesday, 10 wings for $10.

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

Tax extra.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Welcome, Mom.

[Lola Blanc]

Hi. Welcome back. Six years later to Trust Me, our first guest ever, Christine Marie, is back. She's back and she's got a whole

[Dr. Christine Marie]

new story to tell.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

That is for sure. Thank you for coming back, Mama.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

My pleasure.

[Lola Blanc]

So for those who have not seen it yet, you are here because the Netflix docu series called Trust Me the False Prophet. The False Prophet, yes. Okay. The False Prophet centers around the work that you did in this polygamous community in southern Utah and the border town of Short Creek. And so, last people heard from you on this podcast, you walked us through the cult leader that we both believed in, the self proclaimed prophet and how he separated us and the harrowing stuff that you went through when you were on your own. And people can go back and listen to that episode if they are interested. But we're gonna cut to the part where you moved to Short Creek. And can you talk about why you first moved to Short Creek?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes. So, Tolga, my husband and I, we were living in Las Vegas and I wanted to be helpful to people who had gone through something similar to me. So I was doing activism and advocacy anyway for survivors of human trafficking and survivors of Polygamous cults and so on,

[Lola Blanc]

because, like, there were some young women who had come to stay with you in Vegas coming out of different cults. And so you guys had kind of been involved in this work already.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, I was a pretty high profile anti polygamy activist at that time. And after my personal experience that we talked about on the first episode, I spent a good decade studying why my brain went offline. What the hell happened to my critical thinking? And once I understood that, I wanted to be able to turn that knowledge into helping other people. So I had the opportunity to move to this border town, which is. It's called Shore Creek. It's Hilldale, Utah, in Colorado City, Arizona. It's the hub of the flds, which are fundamental Mormons. And people were starting to leave the church, and I thought I could help them understand what happened to them. So we moved there.

[Lola Blanc]

And why did. Even at the time I was like, you're moving where?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Like, why?

[Lola Blanc]

Why actually move there? As opposed to just.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Well, if you remember, I wanted a bigger house because I wanted a house where I could take more people in because my house was too small. And I had the opportunity to buy Warren Jeff's mansion, 42 bedrooms. And I had to partner with somebody who had come from the community. No, True.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God. 42 bedrooms.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And how much was this going for?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

$350,000.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. But which house is the Brielle house?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that house. Okay. Spoiler. She did not buy this house.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

But.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, continue.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I was approved to buy it. You have to be approved to buy something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I see.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And so. But I wanted it so that I could have people come in and we could do, like, healing retreats and so on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So that's why I had to move there. I thought, okay, now I'll be in the community so that when we get the house, I could be right here. They closed on my deal without including me.

[Lola Blanc]

You had a whole plan in place. We, like, did some filming around some of what this idea was, which was to, like, basically create. What do you call it? Like a sanctuary. Yeah. House of feelings for people. Coming.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Rehab. It's almost rehab.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

However, at the time, I didn't understand what was happening in the town. And when it occurred to me that if I wanted to be able to help the flds, I could not buy their prophet's house, they would see that as desecrating it. So by that time, I realized I have to walk away and take the loss.

[Lola Blanc]

And I also want to clarify, when we say Mansion. This is the, like, I kind of want to paint a picture of what the town is because it's not like a Beverly Hills mansion. These are like, basic kind of ugly houses in the town. There's a lot of these houses because they were meant to house these giant families.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. It's not that they're ugly, it's just that they're kind of like, quickly built so that as many children as possible can.

[Lola Blanc]

They're more. It's more utilitarian, mostly practical. Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So it was a big house with all these bedrooms. It was actually more than one house on the property. But, you know, it's all good now. I mean, I have a house that I have people in, and it all worked out for the best, but that's why I moved there. I wanted to help them, but I needed to be there. I just felt it. And even though that didn't work out, other things did, and that's how I started to make a difference.

[Lola Blanc]

And so you're there and you start to notice. I mean, the documentary touches on this, but for those who haven't seen, you start to notice that there's something going on with the housing there.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes. I wasn't a fan of FLDS people because I was very anti polygamy. So I assumed that whenever they complained about something that they were just playing the victim. But when I saw with my own eyes that people were being evicted from homes with the taxes fully paid that had no mortgage, that seemed like a violation of civil rights to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I remember you talking about this the first time you were on that. These people in the town, they had their homes, they owned them, they'd paid the mortgage, they were up to date. But because they were connected to this Warren Jeffs religion, they were being kicked out of their homes that they owned.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Right. It was because they needed to sign an occupancy agreement, which is a legal thing you need to do. But they thought it was a violation of their civil rights because these homes were dedicated into this trust, a religious trust. The state came, took the religious purpose out of the trust and said, now all of you got anybody can get these homes. And in order for them to stay in this home that they paid cash for and built, they had to sign this paper that they felt was a violation of their religion.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that makes sense. So people are getting kicked out because they don't want to sign this piece of paper. And you're witnessing it, and there's a lot of families that are losing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And I wanted to find A workaround. Why should they have to leave their home just because they still believe in Warren Jeffs? I mean, housing stability is something everybody should have, especially if you have children. So then I did create a workaround, and I became an intermediary between the flds so I could sign things or help create things to enable them to stay in their homes where they weren't violating their religion. So this helped me get a foundation to be trusted by a number of FLDS people.

[Lola Blanc]

And I want to know more. I mean, and tell me if you think this is interesting, but I want to know more about the anti polygamy activism turn and, like, what, you know, what you were so against initially and why it flipped.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I assumed that my experience with my false prophet where I actually had sort of pseudo sister wives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

You know, I thought these other women were designated to be my sister wives. He sent me this email revelation thing about how we would be, you know, a family in heaven or something like that, although there was no ceremony or anything. So I had this mindset that this woman's my future sister wife. So I treated her like my sister wife and so on, even though we didn't live in the same home. So when I got out of this experience, I was really essentially rescued from this by one of the accomplices, which I talked about earlier. So when that happened and I started recovering, I started really deep diving into how did I lose my critical thinking? How did I believe any of this nonsense? How did I become Truman in the Truman show where everybody around me was observing reality and I was living in this fictional world and everybody knew except me and they allowed it. And, you know, I was just mind fucked. Can I say that?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And so you were. Yeah, yeah. It was rough. So I thought that the answer was in the manipulation caused by polygamy. I thought that's why it happened to me. Even though I wasn't technically in polygamy, my mind was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you were spiritually lit in that.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I will say, like, most of us probably only have experience of polygamy from Sister Wives and Kody Brown. You watch Sister Wives?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I haven't watched it, but.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so not the best reputation from the Brown family because, you know, he ends up marrying a very younger wife, and then all the rest of the wives get left behind, essentially and stolen from, and there's now a lawsuit. So anyway, when you say sister wives, my alarm bells go off and you obviously were like, oh, this might be bad. But then you kind of realize it's not totally.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

When I was an anti polygamy activist, I actually went on the Sister Wives show and debated the Brown family, and I was.

[Lola Blanc]

You did?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes.

[Capella University Announcer]

What?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

At unlv. And I was just vehemently against polygamy. And I had all these great reasons. And what I really meant was coercive polygamy. I was never against polyamory, you know, anything. That's just people making choices and not hurting anybody. That's really not what I care about. But it was really the coercion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And holding eternal salvation over somebody's head like that. But when I was in the town, I got to know some people who were living polygamy that had left the FLDS church and that were in the FLDS church, and they were all saying the same things. I realized even if I am against polygamy, which, personally, I am, religiously coerced polygamy, yes, I'm against that. But I realized that I'm really not doing any good sitting on my couch, being a couch warrior, screaming against polygamists, attacking them and changing nothing. Right, Right. You know, and I'm not convincing them to leave it. I'm not making a difference. I'm not helping them with their trauma. And it just hit me. I need to just stop judging and start helping. And that is my stance. It's not whether I believe in polygamy or not. It's just that I put down my weapons of war and I realized you cannot change minds with facts and attacks.

[Lola Blanc]

Amen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Clock it.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Put that in bold and underline it, you guys.

[Lola Blanc]

But that's such a. Like, that lesson is so applicable to everything in our world right now. It's true. There's so many people who are so angry about so many things, often justifiably. But sitting and being angry at people online is like, not. It really just achieves nothing.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Oh, it's an epidemic. I mean, even right now, after the documentary, which just had an incredible worldwide positive response, my former anti polygamy associates were so angry with me when I stopped being anti polygamy and just started being friends with. With people living polygamy that they started labeling me pro polygamy, which is bullshit, and enabling child sexual abuse, which is bullshit. And they could not see the facts. So our brains are weird in the same way I could not see the facts when I was involved with my prophet. They cannot see the facts when it comes to something that they are emotionally invested in.

[Megan Elizabeth]

None of us can.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Just like politics.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

You know? Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Once we've Made up my mind. My mind. Once we've made up my mind, once we've made up our minds, who's good and who's bad, it's like. Well, like anything to maintain that cohesion in our worldview.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It always surprises me how much we think we are able to overcome that in ourselves. And we're really not.

[Lola Blanc]

We're really not. I mean, we are if we try.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If we try. But you said it perfectly. We're not wired too. It's just not the way our brains are wired. So whether you're the smartest person in the world or Keith Ranieri. Whether you're Keith Ranieri, Australia's Guinness Book of World Record, smartest man in the world because he made up the questions for the test, or, you know, the, the kindest person or the whatever, like you just can't outdo your biology, which is that we're humans and we think this way.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's right. I agree with that.

[Lola Blanc]

We are full of bias. Chock full of it.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

It's not that I became pro polygamy, it's just that I realized when I started actually talking to these people and understanding the meaning that their lifestyle had to them contributed some complexity to their decision making that, you know, judging them for it wasn't going to help. And so I call this harm reduction. No matter where you are on your journey, your spiritual journey, it's better to come out of the other side less traumatized. So even if I don't agree with anything, even if I can't stand Kody Brown or his wives or, I mean, just bitching about him isn't going to reduce the trauma against them that they're experiencing from him or whatever. Can you guys say that better?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I relate a lot to what you're saying because a lot of people in the religion, the cult, the whatever that I grew up in are very disappointed that I still have a relationship with my family or with people that continue to be a part of the truth, the way the two by twos, whatever you want to call it, and they think that those people should all be cut off and that, you know, I shouldn't speak to them anymore and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't see any change coming from that whatsoever. So I think it's just a conversation and decision that we all have to make. It's harm reduction.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And it's ironic to expect that people should have to cut people off because that's what the cults do. That's just. That's called disconnection. And that's, you know, called shunning. I mean, that's literally cult behavior. So why. Why would we replicate that in our exit from the group? That doesn't make any sense.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And it doesn't make sense to cut people off if you have even the slightest goal to help them someday. I mean, it's coercion. By you saying, I'm only gonna have a relationship with you if you believe in what I believe or if you walk the path I want you to walk, then it's like you're punishing them by saying, I'm not gonna have a relationship with you when you don't. So you're, you know, manipulate them with this punishment. And I'm just against all of that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And you're doing the right thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's right. And I learned from the best. I learned from you. I mean, you were one of the first people that I spoke to that got through to me, luckily, about all of the things that I am trying to do. But I know you've gotten haters and hate for it, which we won't go into because they don't deserve the space as we've talked about. But, you know, people don't. People don't like it sometimes when you help people or when you connect with people who are in abusive systems and because they think that's your stamp of approval on the abusive system.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's right. When it, in fact, you may end up being the only safe one they can come to in their hour of need.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and we've said this in so, so, so, so many episodes at this point. Like every occult expert says it, like, the best way that you can help is to stay connected and so that they have some connection to the outside world, because otherwise they're just stuck in their closed system and completely isolated and have no evidence that there are people on the outside that are nice. Unlike what their leader is telling them about how everyone's evil.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. But there is so much external pressure on us outsiders for having these relationships with people who are stigmatized because of their decisions. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for somebody that the world hates.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Or your relevant group hates. So for you to maintain your relationship with your family while you're getting hate for it, I respect that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you. You taught it to me. So the circle of life.

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[Lola Blanc]

So you're in this town, you start making friends with people and you're like, why was I so angry when I could, you know, treat people with dignity?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's right.

[Lola Blanc]

And then you sort of, you know, develop some trust in this town because you are helping get, get people online, get kids schooling online, get people fed, get people, you know, resources that they didn't have before. And so how did Sam Bateman first come into the picture?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

He was introduced to us by an FLDS woman who was a friend of ours. And he came over with his wife and children and he bore his testimony, shared his story and verbalized his testimony like it was a sword from heaven. And do your viewers know what testimony means? His story, his story of why he believes and all this faith promoting stuff. And it was just a weapon. That's why we were like, okay, so this Guy is really, really zealous.

[Lola Blanc]

What do you mean? So basically, he's like, I got my faith from blah, blah, blah, and I feel the fire of the Lord. Like, what's.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

No. He talked about how he went to every day of the Warren Jeff's trial, and he saw all the things, and even though he was tempted to throw it all away, he had this spiritual experience, and it just made him stronger and so on.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, but was he, like, charismatic in how he.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Oh, no, no. But he did recite a poem. So he recited this long poem, and he said that he wrote it in one night, and Tolga and I were like, wow. And were you really?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, the fact that he was before chatgpt.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Lol. And the fact that he even memorized it was amazing. Like, I haven't memorized something that long in a while. Later, can I do a spoiler?

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Later we learned that he spent weeks memorizing it and months writing it. Or, you know, and he forgot. Cause he forgot. He forgot what he told us originally, and then he told us a whole different story later.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. That's really funny. A normal man with a touch of poetry in him.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes. But that poetry was to be drawn upon at will, depending on who he was talking to and which points he wanted to make.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So it was like a little tool that he could use, a little manipulation tool in his toolbox.

[Lola Blanc]

So he's trying to prove, like, I'm really smart.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Good at memorizing. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, he's sensitive.

[Lola Blanc]

He's a poet.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Oh, he's a poet.

[Lola Blanc]

He's an artist. Yes.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. But that's the only artistic thing I ever saw. And for all I know, he didn't even write the poem.

[Lola Blanc]

No, I'm sure he didn't write the poem.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He didn't. I don't.

[Lola Blanc]

One of the guys wrote the poem.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Somebody else wrote that poem. But, I mean. Okay, it's just. It's so weird to see who he was and then who he became.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Okay, so his wife divorced him because. Smart. Because he made a pass on his daughter.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

He offered her $50 to not tell her mom, and he wanted to have a baby with her.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

When she was 10.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This animal.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. So she got home from that trip with him, told her mother immediately.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Good.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And the mother filed a protective order, filed for divorce, and got her and the rest of their family out of there.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

When was that?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That was about 2018. Oh. Or maybe early 2019. Okay. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

So then Sam did you know about any of that?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I just knew they were getting divorced. Oh.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And that she got a protective order. But his side of the story was different. Well, he's a broken man now. Totally. Like, I thought he might kill himself. And he had no money, was just a loser in every way. And now no wife. Then he disappears, and around 20, 21, he reappears with a wife who looks very young, but she was over 18. I think she was 20. And because the FLDS aren't doing marriages, they're very shunned. He and his young wife are very shunned. And so I'm nice to them. I don't see anything wrong. He just got a new wife. So then he leaves again. He comes back with two carloads of wives.

[Lola Blanc]

Two carloads.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Two carloads of wives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

After how long is a car load?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. What size car? SUV's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So 12.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Maybe by that time it was 16. 18 wives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

One.

[Capella University Announcer]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And for people who haven't seen the doc, please go watch it, because just seeing the people getting out of the cars is one of the wildest experiences of my life. Like, somebody. They'll just open a, like, suburban door, and it's like a. Like a. I wanted to say circus, but that makes a clown car. It's like a clown car, but that makes it sound nice and funny, but it's not. But it's just like you're. You're like 12 people come out, and you're like, well, that's as many people as could possibly be in there. But there's just more.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Commented on it, I think, in the doc.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's so many.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So after how. How. How long was it between him having this one new wife and him having two carloads of wives?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

It was maybe. I'm really iffy on that. So he had one wife, and then he came back with her sister. So he had two wives, all right. But he had no money. I invited them to come with Toga and I on a photography trip to this ghost town that I love called Grafton. And he sent me a text, and it said, if that involves any money, we can't go. Because I am so absolutely broke that I couldn't even afford gas. And, you know, I wrote back and said, I mean, you can ride in our car. You don't need gas. But he's so broke, he can't afford gas. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got you.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Then he comes back with two carloads of women and children that I thought were just the children of the women, and they were the Children of the women. But he has two nice cars, he's got nice clothes, he's got all these wives. Sam, who didn't have $10 to his name. He was failing as a rebar estimator. You know what that is?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

When you build a house, they have these wire things come up to put in the walls. It's called rebar. His job was estimating rebar.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you'd just be like, there's some rebar.

[Lola Blanc]

That's all you had to do.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

You had to figure out how much rebar goes into this construction thing. He couldn't even. He wasn't even doing that. He had no money. He tried buying, being an insurance salesman, and he failed at that, too. So he was a mess. Now he's king of the world.

[Lola Blanc]

Where did the money come from?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

The money came from his ability to convert a couple of very key and successful FLDS men into his group. Because remember, when Warren Jeffs went to prison in 2006, there were no more marriages because he was the only one that could perform marriages. So no marriages and no babies.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, yeah, this community that's whole purpose up to this point had been babies.

[Lola Blanc]

Marriages.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Marriage and babies. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Gone since 2006.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Since 2006, when George Bush was president and Saddam Hussein was still alive. Wow. That's how long it's been.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So now, Warren Jeffs had not communicated in quite a while. So the FLDS people didn't know what to do. They had no direction. They're used to being led. So Sam sees his vacuum and says, here's my chance. So he elevated himself by saying, I am the messenger for Warren Jeffs. He's not really in prison. He's been translated. So he's immortal. And he's speaking to me. And we're starting marriages again. And if you follow me, you can have babies again, too. Which means sex. They weren't allowed to have sex.

[Lola Blanc]

That's right. That's right. So of course you'd want to believe that.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Like, girls would want to believe it because they want babies.

[Lola Blanc]

Or sex.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Or sex, depending, you know. But in the flds, you don't have sex unless it's for the purpose of having a baby.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So at any rate.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, that's what they say anyway.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. I'm not in the bedroom to check. Yeah. So he had something that appealed to them. He became an imposter so that he could play off, or should I say pray off, the loyalty and the love that they had for their prophet. So he's now like if you loved and had loyalty to Warren Jeff's, I am the guy that's gonna give you his messages and let you move forward with your life. So he got a few key families, just a few. Most FLDS wanted nothing to do with him. 95% of FLDS didn't buy it. Maybe even 99%. There was really only three big families that he was able to recruit, but they had a lot of girls and

[Megan Elizabeth]

a lot of money.

[Lola Blanc]

And so can you just talk a little bit about why any. Why those three families would believe him, though? Like, obviously there's incentive to. But also culturally, within this, like, lineage of, you know, lds, flds, churches, like that is how prophets are.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, right. I mean, if we take a brief history lesson, Warren Jeffs was the son of the original prophet. Was his name Ronan Rulin? Roland Rulin'? Rulan? That should be. Yeah, that's a good name for a ruler. He was the original prophet, and he was supposed to be immortal. And then he died. And Warren was like, just kidding. I'm speaking for him now. So Warren already pulled off this con.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, a lot of people did.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I wouldn't call Rulon an original prophet because there was a breakoff from the mainstream Mormon Church in 1890 when they gave up polygamy. And these people said, you know, how can polygamy be required for eternal salvation? One week you have to do this to be exalted, and then the next week, for secular reasons, they ban it. Well, then how is that eternal? Right. So there was this big breakoff, and at the break off, then there was a different hierarchy of prophets that came down. And that's how Short Creek ended up being a plural community, because it was like a place where people who still believed in that could all be together. So there were lots of prophets along the way.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, there's lots of lineage, like after Brigham Young. Is that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So there has to be a prophet, and it leaves room for somebody to be like. And that's me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Just like I went to.

[Lola Blanc]

That's how all of them were. That's how all of them were designated. They were like, self designated, basically. Basically, right. That's like. That's how Joseph Smith was designated as a prophet.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Well, it depends on what you believe, but they.

[Lola Blanc]

That's

[Dr. Christine Marie]

the mainstream LDS church. It's the oldest person in the. You know, it's not just you declare yourself, it's the next senior person.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. In the mainstream church now, but the origins of the church are such that generally people didn't see these visions that Joseph Smith was having. He was having them on his own and, you know, a person or two would vouch for him. And that was who everybody believed was the prophet. So it's not weird within, with that history.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

True.

[Lola Blanc]

Which is the same thing with the prophet that we believed in. I mean, it's not odd given the history of what defines a prophet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And a prophet speaks for God, my friends. If you want the real truth, you go to a prophet because God speaks directly to him. And of course I'm kidding. But that is what we believed and many people believe. So you don't have to do the thinking. In fact, in the LDS church there's a website and on the website somewhere I found this article on the church approved articles that says, you don't have to think. We have done the thinking for you.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So that's what, you know, that's how I was controlled and manipulated. I thought, I'm going to trust the authorities. Authority bias. And that's what they were looking for. The people who ended up in the Samulite group wanted authority. And I think the reason they had a vulnerability to it is because when I think of the men that he did recruit, they had been either sent away or had committed adultery or something, which is the sin second to murder. And Sam offered them forgiveness.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And that was a really big cookie.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I would probably be like, oh, I can have a community again and kids and a family and all I have to do is just kind of believe that this guy might be right. Yeah, I could see myself leaning into that totally. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, and like, yeah, not to get into how we think again, but we like to believe we're making decisions based on just like rational evidence. But the truth is we choose our community based on incentives like that, whether we're cognizant of it or not. So it makes sense.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. If the most important thing in your life is getting back to God and you've messed up, well, there's a path also community.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, you've talked about, written about this in your research too. Like you lose your community and that's a traumatizing experience. Leaves you completely isolated and often suicidal. And so then a new community is being offered. That's gonna seem like a ray of hope from the Lord.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. And so when Sam came around and before him, Moroni. Moroni was one of Sam's followers. But he might have set the thing in motion in a way because he found some writings that talked about how you don't have to wait for the prophet to tell you to do anything, you can do it, make your own decisions. Now that was like heresy.

[Capella University Announcer]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

But it was in the historical church writings. And he called it self determination. Gotta give.

[Lola Blanc]

Sam called it that.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

No, Moroni called it that. Now we should be saying, good job, Moroni. Yes, you can think for yourself. If you want to have a baby with your wife, you do it. That's what happened when he started that. Then some girls self determined that they wanted to be married to Moroni and he had a couple babies, but there was no prophet involved sealing them. So Sam jumped in on it and somehow did a leapfrog over Moroni. And then with Sam, Moroni was never calling himself a prophet. Sam did. And now with Sam being the prophet now, he took the wives that went to Moroni. All the young, pretty wives, but of

[Lola Blanc]

age at that point. Yes.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And then started taking his daughters and demanding them. It was. And the same thing with this other

[Lola Blanc]

main believer, just for context, for those who haven't seen the series, Moroni is one of the few men in the group whose daughters were subjected. I mean, he was involved in the abuse.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, Right. Although Moroni himself did not, wasn't with any underage people. He did not protect his children. And when Sam demanded them as wives, he relinquished them. So he's in prison for many years and he says, this is exactly where I need to be. I deserve to be here. And he's the only one of Sam's followers that has even expressed any accountability. So, yeah, he basically lost the rest

[Lola Blanc]

of his life for Sam Bateman.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

For Sam Bateman, of all people.

[Lola Blanc]

Crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You can see how it happened. Like we said, you know, he wanted a community back into a community. And it's very unfortunate that Sam Bateman was the one who saw this opportunity to take everybody down with him.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And when he went to court one time, when all of his wives and the people involved in the case had to all be in the same courtroom at one time, he had the opportunity to say at least about his wives that committed crimes for him. They're not to blame. I made them do it. It's me. Put it all on me. But he didn't, you know, was just the coward that he always is and tried to act as if he was innocent and didn't do anything to make amends or try to lessen the impact of being in prison on these young mothers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. Yeah. I don't know if the normal layperson can really understand how much churches really demand that women obey their husbands to A very real world extent.

[Lola Blanc]

Fundamentalists ones in particular.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And in this case, if you did not follow along with what Sam said, there was a real threat that you might suffer physical harm.

[Lola Blanc]

And what does that mean?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

So he was teaching this concept called blood atonement. When Jesus died on the cross and had his blood spilled, that was supposed to cover all the sins of the world. Blood atonement is a fundamental Mormon belief that Jesus sacrifice did not cover all the sins. There are some things that you can do where you have to spill your own blood, you have to die by the shedding of your own blood, so that you will then go to the highest degree of heaven and you can still have an eternal family and all that. So he was teaching blood atonement. It was portrayed as an act of kindness. So in other words, murder.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And kind of like, you don't obey me, you might have to do some blood atonement on yourself.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. You don't do yourself, but you submit to it or it will be put upon you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is so scary.

[Lola Blanc]

That's so scary.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

He's teaching it all the time.

[Lola Blanc]

And hasn't blood atonement been actually enacted in other fundamentalist Mormon groups?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes, it has.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. There's not really a history of it in the flds, but there's so many fundamentalist Mormon offshoots that we would never

[Megan Elizabeth]

have a gun and cross.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

There have been murders like you're slitting your throat or something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Seems like the blood would have to.

[Lola Blanc]

In the one group, though, weren't there were. It was guns, right? Wasn't it?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, I believe so. You mean the Lebarons?

[Lola Blanc]

The Lebarons, yeah. I think they were just using it because they just. The guy just wanted to kill his enemies.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, but that was the justification was blood atonement.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. So he's teaching this, and we got video of him teaching this. And I asked him, who qualifies for blood atonement? Because this is scary shit, you know, and he looks at me straight in the eyes and he says, anybody who knowingly goes against the prophet, and that's him.

[Lola Blanc]

That goosebumps felt like a threat.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Goosebumps, Goosebumps.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

But guess what? All his wives know this. He's been teaching this. Do they dare not do the things he requires of them? Do they dare not, you know, hide evidence or not go pick up the girls? You know, I mean, and that's on

[Lola Blanc]

top of just like the baseline coercion that's there, which is more along the lines of. Of, you know, what you experienced which is your eternal salvation being threatened. And that itself is so powerful. Yeah, because, like, that's forever. That's heaven. That's forever. That's been, you know, suffering for all of eternity. Like, that's already so powerful on its own and has kept so many people in coercive situations that they never would be in otherwise if they didn't believe this, like, terrifying thing about the afterlife. But then on top of that, there's the physical realm threat, which, I mean, it's just, like, another level of coercion that I can't imagine.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Just quick side note, Toga and I started filming, like, some archival footage for the flds, and we're thinking about doing a documentary just on the flds. It would take away maybe some of the stigma and help them be less traumatized. We didn't really know. We're not really documentarians, but we were filming, and Toga hoped to make it into a documentary. Then Sam saw some of the clips that Toga had made. He wanted to be filmed, and I was like, no way. No way. We're not platforming this guy. This is before I knew anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

But he still was not being an FLDS guy. He was off on his own. Then as we started to learn more crazy stuff, we realized if we film him, we might get something. We might get some evidence. So we start filming all this stuff. So that's why we have footage of him talking about blood atonement. He was actually planning and trying to involve some family members in killing Moroni and Ludden.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm surprised he didn't. I'm surprised that that didn't happen.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. Yeah. It was a very scary situation because then Moroni goes missing. He went missing for days, and the FBI was about to put out an APB on him and have people searching for him because we thought, oh, no. Oh, no, we didn't.

[Lola Blanc]

Once you were already working with the FBI.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Once I was working with the FBI, I'm jumping the gun.

[Lola Blanc]

So I do remember. Where was he worried about Moroni? Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

He was in Phoenix, and he was forced to write a confession. So he wrote this big confession of things that he didn't do. But that's kind of what they do, right? They want confessions. And even if they're not real, like, Keith Ranieri did the same thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was just thinking of.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Wait, what he called it Collateral.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Collateral? Yeah. Confessions of things you haven't done that. Blackmail you.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

He was doing it for Sam. Yeah. Sam wanted that in Phoenix for some reason.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. Yeah. For some reason. We don't know why.

[Lola Blanc]

All right, so you guys start filming.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. So turns out Sam seems to be a narcissist and wants to be filmed all the time.

[Lola Blanc]

It's so funny to me, like, there's the fact that there are. I feel like there's a good amount of. We've had on a good amount of people whose leaders just desperately wanted everything to be documented. And it's like, you know, this doesn't go well for you if you. If someone sees this. Right. Like the Sarah Lawrence guy filming everything anyway. Yeah. It's so crazy to me. Every time I'm like, are you sure?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I know. I mean, he was calling us, and his wives were calling us, and they were coming to our house to be filmed. So they were, like, throwing themselves in front of the camera. And so if there's any question about whether they consented, the answer is yes, yes, yes, and yes. So we just filmed everything and kept turning it into law enforcement, not even deciding whether it was evidence or not. We just turned everything in. The minute we got it, you know, we turned it in, but law enforcement didn't seem to care.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's one of the saddest parts of this story. And if you hadn't have kept going.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, you made a presentation at some point, right?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yes, I did.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you talk about the presentation?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I was very frustrated that when I had an audio recording of Sam confessing ritualistic sexual abuse that he forced three of his wives to participate in, one of whom was a child. I had that. I got that audio. And the victims were right there on the audio talking about how it, you know, how they felt when it happened. So we have the victims and the perpetrator, and they didn't even listen to it for, like, a couple months later. Then they didn't do anything on it. So I was quite determined that we move this thing forward. To say that I was frustrated is an understatement. And so finally, the officer calls me and says, you're going to be happy about something. Can you come and meet with this interstate committee of law enforcement? People talk about Sam Bateman. I was like, hell, yeah. So I go there. I actually do a PowerPoint presentation. We have people from Utah, people from Arizona. Why are they making an interstate task force when I've been asking for the FBI to be involved?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

The FBI does the interstate stuff, but they wanted to do their own thing, I guess. So I do the presentation. Then they have a meeting down in Phoenix with the FBI sometime later, I don't know, three Weeks later.

[Lola Blanc]

What's in the presentation? Just briefly.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Okay. So I show the pictures of everybody. I have bullet points of what is happening, what I know what was said in the tape, things like that. There was proof of child sexual abuse.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a full pitch deck for. It was explaining how there was child sexual abuse.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Like, I am doing my job.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Here's the child sexual abuse. Here it is on a PowerPoint. Here's where he lives. Here are where they live, and let's all go there. What my expectation would be is let's get in the cop cars, wooey, wooey, wooey. That's the sound of the alarm, and we'll go arrest him.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just showed it to you. And I've had the same kind of experience with my own group. Like, it doesn't work that way. It's a very long process of getting these people arrested. So you. You get to go to the FBI.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I just want to like mention like, or I guess more ask, like, you know, having. Having done jury duty a couple of times, like, you do need a good amount of evidence to secure a conviction. So was it like, was it that a confession wasn't enough cause it needed more corroboration? Like, what were they saying?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

They needed a victim willing to come forward.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And to be fair, I've heard that from other police departments too, that if they don't have a victim willing to come forward, they're not gonna proceed with it. So even though there were victims on the tape, if they still believed in him and would lie for him, they wouldn't.

[Lola Blanc]

That's right. Like you get them to court and they just say it didn't happen. I mean, you're not gonna win that.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I assumed that they were. That there was an investigation because I kept delivering stuff. So I assume they were watching it and they would have known that there was interstate activity based on what we delivered. But I don't think they did. And I didn't know until I saw the documentary myself, because we didn't produce it. We had no creative control over it. We didn't even see it until two weeks before it came out.

[Lola Blanc]

Toga has a producer credit, but he did not have any control over the results.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Right, exactly. So there were things in there I didn't even know because they even got footage from other places, body cam, other people, stuff like that. But the interstate aspect of it would have enabled the FBI to come. And I was wanting the FBI because I wanted to have recording devices and guidance. And the local law enforcement said they couldn't do that. That had to be FBI. I'm like, well, get the FBI. And so I was bothering them. So he was excited to tell me about this task force, and that's great. So finally the FBI gets involved. And then things really took off finally, with a lot of progress.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That was so wonderful to see. I will just quickly add, I wish there wasn't a law that a victim had to come forward.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

If.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you have video of them saying, yeah, because you're gonna get victim shamed. And it's really hard. And a lot of these girls are really young.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's just so many laws that I wish we could change.

[Lola Blanc]

Maybe if they had filmed the crime itself, that would be different. But I guess just the recording of them talking about it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. The law.

[Lola Blanc]

I guess I see why that's not quite enough, but it's frustrating. It's certainly frustrating.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. And they were also brainwashed. You know, I know that's not a psychological term, but it's what we say. And they wouldn't. They would be protecting him.

[Lola Blanc]

And you can see it very clearly in the footage. I mean, our previous guest and lovely friend, Gnomes, you can see she is very much, very indoctrinated and intent on following Sam's orders at all costs.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And you understand why now? I mean, there was always a subtle threat that if you don't, it was more than your eternal life, you know, you might get killed.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And I was afraid. I started getting messages and threats, too. But that was after.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a little later. Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

After we got outed and all that stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

And Gnomes talked a little bit. If folks haven't heard her episode yet, she talked a little bit about the process of Sam indoctrinating her. Because there were a lot. There was physical harm that happened. There were more. You know, there was a lot going on besides the aforementioned coercive tactics. Okay. So then things start picking up.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. It was incredible. So we still needed a victim to come forward. And because I wasn't attacking the Samulites, because I hadn't attacked the flds, because I continued to be kind and empathetic no matter where they were in their journey, A victim felt like I was a safe person to come to, so she did. And she. Her name is Julia, and she seemed upset. I said, julia, what's going on? Whatever you tell me, I'm not going to tell Sam. Are things okay? And she said, no. And she let me know that there were things going on. But even before her, the reason I knew is because there was one of the young wives that was having secret meetings with me named Mikkel. And Mikkel was giving me as much background as she could, but they kept her in the dark about a lot of things. But I had some background. By that time, I knew Sam had married all these little girls, including as young as age nine.

[Lola Blanc]

Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Okay. So when Julia came to me, I already had a background on some of the things she wanted to talk, but she didn't know if I was going to tell Sam. I wanted to tell her everything, but I didn't know if she was going to tell Sam. And I knew I had to get evidence. So we were doing this dance, like, can I trust you? Can I trust you? So the next day she came over, and I had my box of evidence from my own personal experience when my prophet had written things. And I said to her, julia, no matter what has happened, I have no judgment. I had to get naked for part of my tests and do things I would have never done and subject myself to abuse, something like that. And I said, I want to show you some of the writings from my prophet. And I get out some of his actual writings, including handwritten letters from prison. And she was amazed because I thought, if I tell her my story, then she'll know I'm really not going to go to Sam that I've been through this. That was my strategy, and it worked. So I didn't even have to go through all the bucks or anything. She just hit this point. And she told me later, when you told me your story, I thought I had no idea how deeply she would know, understand this, and that she was the right person. So she said, that is when the flood. She let the floodgates out. She started telling me everything. Then I was recording it, and she was, you know, did a lot of crying, but she wanted me to record so she wouldn't have to say it again because it was so emotional to the FBI. And then she. I told her I was working with the FBI, and then I had to help her gain trust in law enforcement, which is no small feat, of course, you know, but then she did. And the fact that it was a woman was very helpful, and that dawn was so kind. She was incredible. So then Julia, dawn, the FBI special agent in charge, and I just became this. This tornado of productivity.

[Lola Blanc]

It's just, like, so dramatic. Like these three women working together in secret to take down this guy. Like, ugh, It's So amazing.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Oh, my goodness. When we were doing it, and we knew we were scared. Like, when we were doing this, Sam was still teaching blood atonement, and he told Julia that she needed help make sure this got enacted on her own husband.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That he was killed, essentially.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That he gets killed. Yes, because Sam was jealous of him and jealous of the other men because, remember, he took the wives from. But the wives wanted to stay with Moroni and Lud.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

You know, I mean, at least with Moroni. And he resented. And he rebuked those wives for still thinking about him when they were crying, when they had to go to Sam and all this stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

He's such a baby.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's like a baby with a grenade. It's so scary. I mean, you can politically make whatever connections you.

[Lola Blanc]

Look at me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Look at me.

[Lola Blanc]

Jump around.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. He wanted everybody to see him, so he put his wives in this flatbed trailer and drove around town with all these. They're beautiful. These are beautiful, smart people. And he would want all the men to see him, you know, showing off his prize horses as he drove around town. All these beautiful young girls like me, you guys. They like me. I got him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Your life was on the line. And watching that documentary is bone chilling. How you must have been petrified.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I was petrified at times, for sure. One time, I got in my car and was driving away, and I got a phone call from Sam, and he said, you look very lovely in your pink dress with your blue sweater or whatever I was wearing. And I thought, how does he know what I wore today? And I realized, does he have cameras at my house? On my house?

[Megan Elizabeth]

That would be what would come to my mind. Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I mean, I freaked out about it. I did video journals. I sent them to Lola in case something happened to me.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, I have a bunch of WhatsApp history and voice memos.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you must have been petrified, too, Lola. That's so scary. You're really dealing with a psychopath.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And I got some literal death threats.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. And once I hid at Lola's house because I was afraid that they were gonna make good on their threat that I would be dead by New Year's.

[Lola Blanc]

Because that's after they found out.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's after they found out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I remember talking to you both once where I was just like, I'm very scared. I don't. Blah, blah, blah. And you guys were like, there's a donkey.

[Lola Blanc]

The donkey alarm system.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's true. It's true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was like, I want more, though. Than just a donkey.

[Lola Blanc]

I swear, though, the second you walk up, that's a bad donkey noise. I can't do it.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

True.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So there's a donkey that lives on your property, or was. That would make a loud noise. And that. That.

[Lola Blanc]

That was our security for.

[Megan Elizabeth]

For yet.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

It's true. It's true. It's a miniature donkey. We still have him. I love him.

[Lola Blanc]

Now they have a real alarm system, but we do.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

We do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Good, good.

[Lola Blanc]

But, yeah, at the time, I mean, yes, I took comfort in that. There were people at your house. There are always people at your house.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

There are. And when we knew that the arrest was imminent, we started moving Julia out of this one home where everybody was living. Right. So we call it the blue house. And so secretly, in the middle of the night, Julia would put boxes of her stuff in these bins. Now, she had a cleaning company, so she would have these gray bins with all her cleaning stuff. I think they were like gray with yellow lids, you know, so she would put like four of them by the door. And then Mikel, this beautiful young girl who's also a singer. I mean, she's over 18, but she would take those bins, put them in her car. So people at the house thought it was Julia's cleaning supplies, but we were secretly moving them out, you know, every night. And if Mikkel would have been caught, she would have been in a very bad way. But that's how we did it. She hid her stuff in her cleaning bins so nobody would be aware. So she was primarily moved out before the raid, but she finished moving out afterwards anyway. So then there was a raid. Yes. It worked. Yeah, that was a thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That raid could have been a disaster without you. We've talked to so many people who have lost family members in raids. Yeah, they can get really ugly.

[Lola Blanc]

And what was that like for you?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

It was scary. The night before toga and I had a hugging, crying session. If anything happens to you, I want you to know you were the best husband. I was sitting on his lap and we were just hugging and rocking. You know, I was like, I had the best life.

[Lola Blanc]

We just did this, like, goodbye, because he's with Sam and you're with the girls.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

The next day, he was to be with Sam, and I would be with the girls. And we knew they had weapons. You know, we knew the girls had said, if anybody arrests Sam, we're going to level the state of Utah and Arizona. We knew they'd been out doing target practice, learning how to use these weapons. So. But we Also knew we had to come through. You know, when I was driven, I did not want them to go through any more abuse. And I did not want them to have the hole in their heart that law enforcement never cared like I had, that their guy would never get arrested. I was determined to get him off the street, and so whatever it took, so we did. So I went over in the location where the girls were, we wanted to separate Sam from the girls so there'd be a less chance of violence. And Toga went with Sam. And it was. It was handled very well. It was scary, but there was no violence. And we had the doors open so they didn't break the doors in. Terrify all the little babies, you know? So it was an incredibly intense time for everyone. So emotional on so many levels.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

But the. The people. The people who had done the raid, there were 50 law enforcement from around. From around places. And when they. They were not told who the informants were. So they treated everybody the same. They threw Toga on the ground.

[Lola Blanc]

They did?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I didn't know that.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah. He had to get handcuffs, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Wow. They just didn't know who I was.

[Lola Blanc]

And that was intentional so that you wouldn't get treated differently or interesting, you

[Dr. Christine Marie]

know, they took our phones like everybody else's. They interrogated us. And Julia, when she was. When the FBI went into her room, I was trying to let her know. I couldn't let her know that it was about to happen. But she was so scared. She was on pins and needles that they wouldn't come in time. I couldn't tell her. So I called her early in the morning and I just said, julia, are you dressed? Mm. You might wanna get dressed.

[Lola Blanc]

Mm.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

You might wanna look pretty.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

That's all I said, you might wanna get dressed right now. But she still didn't know. But when they came into her place, she said she just wanted to hug them. Just wanted to hug them while everybody else was so angry. She was like, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Can you talk to, briefly, a bit about conflict you felt in your head, knowing that you were gonna betray their

[Dr. Christine Marie]

trust, you know, When I think about how I escaped my situation, it was with the help of someone who brought me into reality, kind of forcefully in a way, you know? But I had to be that person. And I love these people so much. I still do. Even though they hate me, even though I know that's not who they really are. And I just didn't want to add to their Suffering. And I knew it would. It was rough. I had to get therapy, you know, to live that double life and to deal with the anticipation of how much I was going to hurt them. But I had to come to the conclusion that I was hurting them for their own good. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You had to be the real adult in your life at that point.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, it was like I was taking. Like they were drunk and I was taking the keys to their car away whether they wanted me to or not. Right now, you know, a number of people have woken up and come out and are incredibly grateful. That's great. But not all. Yeah, not all.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not all.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

No, probably not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What did it feel like when you knew the raid was over and it had been non violent?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

I suppose it would be like running a marathon and winning. And then for three days afterwards you've got like still all this nervous energy, but it's happy. Something like that miracle.

[Lola Blanc]

And so now this and the whole world knows who you are. Something we talked about, I think, in our original episode, certainly that we've talked about between us, which is what your research centers around, which is media misrepresentation and how your story of your original experience with our prophet was not told. Well, when people had told it, it victim blamed you, you know, it re traumatized you and. And so that's become something that you're passionate about. How do you feel now having been a part of this series?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Oh my goodness. I feel really overjoyed. It was so ethically complicated and the story was complicated. So when we entrusted all the footage to someone else, I mean, we were in it. It was too big for us. We had to, but we had to just hope that the director, Rachel Drudson, the main director, but then there was also longtime family friend Elise, who was a director, and also Jamila. And so we just turned it over. And I didn't just hope that they would do it well, I did as much educating as I could to Rachel about my hopes and why. I talked about my experience. I talked about everything that I knew that creates victim shaming and why it was so important to give the psychological backdrop of everything. And I suspect she knew all that anyway. But I wanted to feel like I tried really hard to impart the need to treat these people with dignity and see them as victims, even if they committed crimes because of Sam. And the way it turned out was amazing. I couldn't have done it better because the public response has been to want to embrace these victims. I haven't seen a single comment that has been victim, shaming. Even for the people who still believe in Sam. And you know, I've been inundated with DMs and emails, and those words are a dream for me after what I went through, to see them treating the survivors of Sam Bateman with so much dignity. I couldn't have asked for better directors or better team.

[Lola Blanc]

So. Dear mother. Yes, first of all, just like what a of life you have lived.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're a hero. I don't use it lightly. You're a hero. And you've been a hero to me. You're one of the first people who's gotten through to me. We both love you so much.

[Lola Blanc]

My best friend.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You've saved so many lives. Yes, You're America's best friend.

[Lola Blanc]

Honestly, I get so many comments too, just being like America's mother. And I do feel, but like, be

[Dr. Christine Marie]

kind to each other, please.

[Lola Blanc]

And I don't, I don't. I'm not responding to all of them, but, like, that's how I've always known you in long before this, long before there were any cameras. No one ever around to see. Like, if anybody ever is, like, having trouble and they call you, you answer, and you talk to them for like two hours, even if you barely fucking know them. Like, that's just always been who you are. And like, you always have been doing service in private and secretly and when no one is watching, that's just like. And I was annoyed by it growing up, if we're being honest. I was like, stop. Stop letting. I don't want all these people around.

[Capella University Announcer]

I know.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Sorry.

[Lola Blanc]

But so it's very exciting for me to see that now everyone can appreciate who you are and what you've done and just like truly can attest, it's just always. You've always been like that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then to give the dignity to your own story that was stripped away,

[Dr. Christine Marie]

like, yeah, it was healing for me to, you know, this was the story of three women. Me, Julia and gnomes who had all suffered abuse, who came together and took down a monster. Yeah, it was girl power. And I couldn't have done it without Tolga. He was my secret weapon. But this, this was really about women finding their voice. And for me, it was full circle narrative arc because after what the docudrama did to destroy me and make the old one, the old one make me feel like the most slut shamed mother on the planet. Now, to be honest, I feel like the most loved person on the most loved woman on the Internet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you should be.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And. And, oh, you're so kind. I know it's going to go away, but I'm savoring this moment and I'm thrilled with all of the changes and the impact that is coming from people who've watched the documentary. I get to talk to students. Teachers have me zoom in to talk about coercive control because of the documentary. I mean, I've already done like five educational zooms. But then other people say they found the strength to turn in their abuser because they were inspired by Julia, the real hero, who really threatened her, had her life threatened. You know, I mean, I can't stress it enough what the inner power and strength she had to come up with with what she was facing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you make a great point. There's so many heroes in this story. The FBI agent, she was incredible. I keep making a mental note that we have to drop her full name in the intro because there's. So there's heroes on heroes on heroes. And yeah, thank you beyond words for doing the work that you did, even though it could have gotten you killed. And you still have threats, but thank God for donkeys and alarm systems and your voice.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And for me, thank you from me. Thank you to everybody who has watched it, been touched by it, and told other people to watch it and made some kind of change as a result of it. That is something. The response to be this great, to go number one globally on Netflix and to have just won a Critics Choice Award, it almost startles me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It makes my heart beam. It makes my heart smile. On theme. It's so. It's. It's just so. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And for me, sorry not to harp on this for too long. I know we have to wrap up, but I'm just really happy that, like, your. What you've gone through in your life. Cause you have been through so much adversity and you have been traumatized and had so much taken from you. The fact that you get to use that, the fact that you got to use that not only to help them, but also like to tell the story in this larger way is just so fucking gratifying.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's resilience.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is resilience.

[Lola Blanc]

Post traumatic growth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's post traumatic growth. It's resilience. And it's.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And it's turning trauma into triumph.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's her slogan, folks.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

It is. I got it in there.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And if you experience trauma and you want to find meaning from it, watch this document. Documentarian. Watch this documentarian.

[Lola Blanc]

Watch this document.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Watch this documentarian. And. Yeah. Where can people follow You. What can you do?

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Follow me on Instagram. Dr. ChristyMarie. There's a dot after the R like Dr. ChristineMarie. I'm on TikTok. DrChristyMarie. I haven't really started doing TikToks yet, but I'm going to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Neither have we, don't worry.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

And I have a website, ChristineMarie.com and I have a lot of resources on there. If any of this speaks to you and you need some help, check out my resource page.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We love you.

[Lola Blanc]

Amen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Amen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why are we saying mercy?

[Lola Blanc]

Amen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

God. It's just God.

[Lola Blanc]

No, you say gosh. And instead of amen, I will say indeed. Thank you, Mom.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Love you guys.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you, Mom.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's all we have with my dear mother, Christine Marie, who you may hear from again very soon. I don't know. We'll see. Cross your fingies. Yeah. What an incredible story. What an incredible journey she's been on and what a way to use your traumatic experiences for good. I mean, it's kind of the most extreme way you could do it. But I don't. Ideally, I don't want to do that. But this brings me to my question, because this is normally the part of the podcast for those who are new, where I ask Megan if she would join this cult. I'm not going to ask her that today. She would join many cults. Not this one. We know this one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Nope.

[Lola Blanc]

So, Megan, would you go undercover?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh, yes, I would, but I don't know if I could go to the links that your mom did because she's a hero. I don't. I could like, maybe put on a fake mustache or something and like,

[Dr. Christine Marie]

you

[Megan Elizabeth]

know, the, the, like the real version of that. Like maybe a wig. Go try a few things. But I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like I could see you going into like a yoga community and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sure, sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Just getting into it, you know, like authentically. And then maybe you just are in it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then I'm in it. That's why I couldn't. If listeners listened to the episode A Couple Back With Gnomes, where I almost moved into the alien cult house, like, sometimes going undercover means you join the cult. So I shouldn't go undercover for culture that are something I might join. But I would like to think if there were a cult out there doing criminal things, that I could go undercover and help. That I would.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I think you would. I think I would. I think we both would.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I would.

[Lola Blanc]

But I think we would maybe not do it as long Yeah, I think

[Megan Elizabeth]

the length might be the problem for us.

[Dr. Christine Marie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She played the long game and there's really no words words to describe what she did. So. Dr. Christine, we love you, but I

[Lola Blanc]

love you the most because you're my actual mother in addition to being America's mother.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, Lola, it looks like it's a wrap, but let's ask our listeners to Go Rate Us 5 stars, if you so please go get some [e-mail] that's right. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production,

[Megan Elizabeth]

hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me as this is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram, ustmepodcast or on TikTok usmecult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

What?

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Dr. Christine Marie]

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[Lola Blanc]

Just make sure we protect each other.

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[Capella University Announcer]

Okay. Laundry stinks. Literally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re wearable or filthy they are.

[Lola Blanc]

Or just use use arm and hammer.

[Capella University Announcer]

Deep clean.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's made for real life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry, the quote right?

[Capella University Announcer]

Way Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean it is from the number

[Megan Elizabeth]

one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other come clean with arm and hammer Deep Clean one claim based on total wash loads soldier.