Erika Lantz & Elin Lantz Lesser - Book Burnings, Rapture Drills, & the River Road Fellowship

Summary

Trust Me Podcast: "Erika Lantz & Elin Lantz Lesser - Book Burnings, Rapture Drills, & the River Road Fellowship"

Podcast: Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth
Guests: Erika Lantz & Aylin Lantz Lesser
Date: September 17, 2025
Episode Focus: Exploring the harrowing true story of River Road Fellowship through insights from the creators of "The Turning" podcast.

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the story of the River Road Fellowship, a secluded, abusive religious group led by Victor Bernard. Guests Erika Lantz and Aylin Lantz Lesser—sisters and hosts of the documentary podcast "The Turning"—share findings from their season focused on survivor Lindsay Tornombi. The hosts and guests unpack patterns of manipulation, gradual indoctrination, and the psychological aftermath of growing up in high-control groups. The story is told with compassion and detail, highlighting first-person accounts and recurring dynamics found in cults and other closed communities.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of "The Turning" Podcast & Focus on Abuse in Devotional Communities

• Erika and Aylin’s interest comes from exploring how extreme devotion, whether in religion or art, creates conditions for abuse.
  • Past seasons covered Mother Teresa’s order and the world of ballet, revealing cultish dynamics in "mainstream" spaces.
  • Season 3 escalates to a “full-blown cult” with a criminal leader (Victor Bernard).
  • (18:08 - 19:11)

2. Discovery of River Road Fellowship Story

• Despite being Minnesotans interested in cults, Erika and Aylin learned about the group post-news cycle, drawn by its proximity and extremity.
• Lindsay Tornombi, a key survivor and whistleblower, became their central storyteller.
  • (19:20 - 21:05)

3. Lindsay's Childhood & Entry into the Fellowship

• Lindsay enjoyed a typical ‘90s childhood—Backstreet Boys, Beanie Babies—but her parents' religious searching led them from "The Way" to River Road after a dinner with Victor Bernard.
• The family was “always looking for a leader”—highlighting that vulnerability to such groups can happen to anyone.
  • (24:23 - 25:41)

4. Gradual Indoctrination & Relocation to the Compound

• Entry wasn’t instant; a series of fellowship meetings and idyllic-seeming camp visits preceded selling their home and moving to rural Minnesota.
• Families gradually cut ties with the outside world, physically and symbolically.
  • (28:04 - 29:57)

5. Book Burnings & The Elimination of Identity

• New arrivals were encouraged to burn personal belongings (“earthly things”), culminating in a multi-day bonfire.
• Lindsay recounts throwing her teddy bear in; another survivor, Christa, had her "Little House on the Prairie" books burned by her mother.
  • (36:12 - 37:39 & 38:36 - 41:21)
• Quote: “She threw in her teddy bear into the fire and watched it burn.” —Aylin (37:17)
• Quote: “Christa actually burned her hands trying to save her books.” —Erica (41:21)

6. Escalating Control: Isolation & Readiness for the 'Rapture'

• Members could not leave a 30-minute radius, to “be ready” for Christ’s return.
• “Rapture drills” included the alarm “the eagles are gathering.” During a fake drill, members left food on stoves, shampoo in hair, to run to the meeting spot.
  • (69:00 - 71:12)

7. The "Maidens": Institutionalized Abuse Under the Guise of Honor

• Ten girls (“maidens”), all from special-status families, were separated from parents and tasked to serve Victor—cleaning, cooking, but also enduring systematic sexual abuse.
  • Parents saw this as an “honor,” coerced and manipulated by Victor’s status as “God’s apostle.”
  • (45:07 - 48:26)
• Quote: “After some time had passed…he told them, we’re gonna keep them here, and when they turn 18, I may sleep with them as part of that. Of course, at this point, he’d already been raping them.” —Erica (47:23)

8. Mechanisms of Control: Spiritual Threats, Single Authority, and Isolation

• Victor positioned himself as the sole spiritual authority, threatening followers with exclusion from a promised “special heaven.”
  • “You’ll never see your family again, not only in this life but in the next.” —Erica (51:45)
• New rules were often arbitrary and changed at Victor’s whim—e.g., which books had “devil spirits.”
  • (40:31 - 41:01)
• Emotional bonds within families purposefully undermined; parents and children were set against each other, weakening any resistance.
  • (58:22 - 62:03)

9. Wrestling With Parental Responsibility

• The hosts and guests grapple openly with understanding how parents allowed or enabled their children's abuse due to deep indoctrination and fear for their family’s eternal fate.
  • (48:26 - 48:46)

10. Lindsay’s Escape: Gradual Disillusionment & Exposure to the Outside World

• Lindsay found hope and perspective during a trip to Brazil, her first time outside the compound, followed by more real-world exposure while running a cleaning service.
• The final catalyst: learning Victor also abused adult, married women—this revelation, plus distance from Victor, helped persuade her to leave.
  • (65:47 - 77:58)

11. Parallels Across Cults & Power Dynamics

• Many patterns found in River Road echoed in other abusive groups: a single source of truth, isolation, behavioral and emotional control, and the incremental normalization of harm.
• The emotional power of first-person storytelling is highlighted as a tool for breaking through indoctrination and aiding survivors.
  • (83:51 - 85:30)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Book Burning:
“She threw in her teddy bear into the fire and watched it burn.”
—Aylin (37:17)

On Book Ban Arbitrary Rules:
“Little House in the Prairie books was one of those things...maybe just because it had these strong women.”
—Erica (39:45)

On Parental Complicity:
“At some point, don’t you protect your child, regardless of brainwashing?”
—Erica (48:19)

On Spiritual Threats:
“You’ll never see your family again, not only in this life, but in the next.”
—Erica (51:45)

On Cognitive Dissonance after False Rapture Drill:
“The general mood was laughter and...bonding, as opposed to anger.”
—Aylin (72:18)

On Power and Abuse:
“Is it that people who seek power are those who are more likely to abuse, or is it that power corrupts?”
—Aylin (32:30)

On Father Against Family as Control Tactic:
“The breaking up of the family unit is such an important tactic...It just is this perfect storm for the cult leader to get more power.”
—Megan (61:15)

Final Reflection:
“She's creating the childhood she didn't have. Her childhood was fully robbed from her and she is, like, giving that to her daughter.”
—Erica (79:57)

---

Important Timestamps

• Origins of The Turning: 18:08–19:11
• Discovering the River Road Fellowship: 19:20–21:05
• Lindsay’s Childhood: 24:23–25:41
• Entry to Compound: 28:04–29:57
• Book Burnings: 36:12–37:39, 38:36–41:21
• Control and Rapture Drills: 69:00–71:12
• Institutionalized Abuse ("Maidens"): 45:07–48:26
• Leaving the Group: 65:47–77:58
• Cults Across Society: 83:51–85:30

---

Takeaways & Themes

• Red Flags: Control of information, isolation, demonizing the outside, shifting goalposts, symbolic purges.
• Impact on Survivors: Long-term trauma, lost childhood, struggle for normalcy, gradual healing likely only post-escape.
• Parental Complicity: Explored with nuance—brutally honest about brainwashing, but also about moments survivors are failed.
• Parallels in Power Dynamics: From overt cults to ballet or religious orders—control tactics are scarily similar, suggesting the "cult" label applies across surprising environments.

---

Where to Find More

• The Turning: River Road – wherever podcasts are available.
• Trust Me Podcast – Apple, Spotify, iHeart, and more.

---

Content warning: Contains discussions of sexual abuse, spiritual manipulation, and psychological trauma. The episode leans into first-person, survivor-centered narrative with compassion and candor, while also using dark humor and critical analysis to unpack how such groups function—and how people break free.

Transcript

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

This is exactly right.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

[Lola Blanc]

Each Apple product, like the iPhone, is.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Thoughtfully designed by skilled designers. The Titanium Apple Card is no different.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's laser etched, has no numbers and.

[Lola Blanc]

It earns you daily cash on everything you buy, including 3% back on everything at Apple.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Apply for Apple Card on your iPhone.

[Lola Blanc]

In minutes, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

More at applecard.com Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Washablesofas.com has your back featuring the Annabe Collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain Resistan and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back upgrade now. WashablesOfAs.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lola Blanc]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Lola Blanc]

So I thought it would be fun.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If we made $15 bills, but it.

[Lola Blanc]

Turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Of $45 for a three month plan.

[Lola Blanc]

Equivalent to $15 per month required new offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com Trust me do you trust me? Would I ever lead you astray?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

This is the truth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cult extreme belief and manipulation from two former bookworms who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm Megan Elizabeth. That introduction will make sense later, you guys, I promise.

[Lola Blanc]

I wish I could honestly say I'm a current bookworm, but let's be honest, the reading is the reading has Diminished in the age of social media. That's okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. Yeah. Today our guests are Erica Lance and Aelin Lance Lesser, two sisters and hosts of the podcast the Turning. Each season they cover a different community or story of devotion and abuse, including previously nuns and ballerinas. And now their latest season explores the story of the River Road Fellowship, following a girl named Lindsay. They're going to tell us about how after a mysterious dinner guest named Victor Bernard showed up to Lindsay's house, her parents moved her family out to his religious compound in rural Minnesota. We'll talk about how life changed on the compound, becoming more and more restrictive and isolated from the outside world. How they couldn't leave a 30 minute radius of the camp in case Jesus came back. And how Lindsay was forced to burn her only form of escape, her beloved books.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We'll also hear about how Lindsay was then selected for what was seemingly an honorable position as one of Victor's so called maidens, a group of 10 girls and women sent to live next door to Victor and devote their lives to him. We'll discuss how things only got more disturbing from there with Lindsay and her parents never being told what this would actually entail, the unusual plans she was making to try to escape. And of course, we'll talk about how she finally did.

[Lola Blanc]

And this episode will contain descriptions of sexual assault and abuse.

[Erica Lance]

As a heads up.

[Lola Blanc]

So before we get into it with Erika and Aelin, Megan, what's your cultiest thing this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

My cultiest thing of the week is something that happened actually two weeks ago, so I hope it's not cheating.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Two weeks ago I went to the Backstreet Boys at the Sphere.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, you did?

[Megan Elizabeth]

For a bachelorette party?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I did indeed.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So let me just walk you through a few of the culty elements of this experience. We're all supposed to dress in white.

[Lola Blanc]

Really?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Because of the millennium.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

Cause they were all wearing white. Maybe in. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so it's at the Sphere. So there's thousands of people all dressed in white. And people didn't really explain the sphere correctly to me. In my opinion. Like they'd be like, oh, it's at the Sphere. They have images. I didn't realize that it was a 360 degree ride that you're essentially going on in this stadium. It's like the visuals are completely around you. It's like being on the Back to the Future ride at Universal for two hours.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I did not know that either.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So here's what? The Backstreet Boys are hearkening and their tour that is selling out. Yeah, everybody's coming. Very apocalyptic, in my opinion. I've gone full. Remember Josie and the Pussycats? The best movie ever made.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Of course.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Operation Big Concert. This is Operation Big Concert.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. I actually don't remember that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, whatever. They're preparing us. They're making it normal for our brains to think that things are like. Like, they're like everybody. And there's just, like, cities on fire in the background of them and, like, aliens coming down and shit. And I was like, oh, my God. They're like. They're, like, normalizing all of this.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, everything's fine.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Everything's fine.

[Lola Blanc]

You're having a good time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. Wow. And I was just like, oh, shit. And then all my friends. I'm sober. My friends were not. And the girl getting married was, like, wearing a veil, you know, like a pretty veil. And she's super cute. And one of the Backstreet Boys was, like, hyper focused on her and kept big.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, when you were that close to the stage.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And he was like, I'm gonna give you my hat. And she. And she looked.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God, an honor.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And she looked over at me because she's like, kind of, you know, not on. And she goes, is this really happening? And I was like, yes. I don't know how any of this is happening. And so, yeah, you go on this UFO apocalyptic journey, and then why? No clue. Then you leave. And like, another weird thing was that all these, like, 90s celebrities were there, so they're obviously, like, you know, giving people free tickets. It was like the cast of 90210 from, like, from 92. I was just like, this is such a strange, strange, strange thing. It feels culty. I'm using it.

[Lola Blanc]

It sounds fun as hell.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was fun as hell. And I was, like, salty about going. Because I don't like the Backstreet Boys.

[Lola Blanc]

You don't?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I don't. I was like a 311 prodigy girl. Like, I liked.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, you were edgy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I didn't know it at the time, but I guess I was. I just didn't like. I don't. I don't. I didn't like it. Um. And I'm not trying to be cool. Cause I'm not cool at the same time. I was reading Babysitter Club books while I was doing it.

[Lola Blanc]

I liked it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So I. You know, I wasn't thrilled to go. But then I didn't even listen to them or look at them. I was just in a UFO going through, like, keyholes of space. It honestly felt like you would, like, go through one keyhole and then they'd be like, infinity is real. I can't. I can't.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, well, now I really. You're selling me on it now? I have to go. I wanted to go already. I mean. Yeah. The Nick Carter allegations are a bummer.

[Erica Lance]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And that's what they're. They're allegations, right? Allegedly.

[Lola Blanc]

There are several.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Several. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So again, I, I, I, I wasn't walking in with the highest of hopes. I left knowing that the end of the world is nigh because the Backstreet Boys are telling us so well. Also, Max Martin was there.

[Lola Blanc]

He was?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And they put a spotlight on him and they were like, max Martin, thank you for everything. And he was like, hollow.

[Lola Blanc]

That's how Swedish people talk.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Like.

[Lola Blanc]

Someone'S going to be offended by.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That, but they will.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, I, I have yet to have an encounter with the Backstreet Boys, but I feel like I have done. This is not really relevant at all, but I have. As a songwriter, I have had songwriting sessions with, like, kind of the greatest hits of my childhood, except for a Backstreet Boy. So I did, I wrote a Britney Spears song.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, you did.

[Lola Blanc]

I did one songwriting session with Scary Spice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

But her weird ex husband was there. Who?

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's an episode. Lola.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, she didn't. They. Neither of them remembered me after. It's so. The whole thing was so weird. But then I also did a writing session with Jaycee Chasez from nsync.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Nothing ever happened with that song. But I, like, I need to get the, like, Backstreet Boys to really complete.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, one of them is very interested in my friend, so I would choose that one.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, well, I will bring her to the next show and just stand really close to her. Um. That's wild.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it was really funny. What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

I honestly had so many and I didn't write them down. So this is a lesson to my future self. Great to write this shit down, Lola. I just feel like there's so much.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So much that's what's happening right now.

[Lola Blanc]

But I'll focus on this one thing. So I follow this account called Perfect Union. They make these great documentaries for social media. I'm sure they exist off of social media, too, but more Perfect Union, they made a 15 minute documentary about how they created a wellness scam and how easy it was to do that. And basically they were like, okay, we're going to make up a name for this like, wellness company. And it was, I believe, Deep State Supplement. Like something with Deep State at the front of it. So you know who it's appealing to immediately. And then they just like reached out to a random pill manufacturer and they were like, we want to fight 5G and make brains better. You know, just like these like wild claims. And of course they responded and were like, we can do that. And then they did that and they started marketing it and it's just so easy to do. And in this little doc, they point out how, you know, supplements are not regulated like medications are because they're classified as food.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And that means that they can be marketed without any pre market approval and they are not required to prove efficacy in any way. And they will only be removed from the market once it's shown to actively cause harm. So you can just come up with whatever idea, make any claim you want, basically.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, Lola, you're giving everyone, including limiting myself so many business ideas.

[Lola Blanc]

This is not business advice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I did not know you could do such a thing.

[Lola Blanc]

You can make any claim basically about any supplement and put it, and like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Put it on the market. The claim of this supplement there's was.

[Lola Blanc]

One of them was like fighting 5G and one of them was something else related to conspiracy theorists beliefs. I forget. Okay. And then there was one that was like, I can't remember the language, I should have written it down. But something really, really vague about like improving your brain state or whatever got you. So there's no like actual thing that is based in science and what they're saying, but the pill manufacturer is immediately like, of course we can do that. Yikes. In other words, just to demonstrate that like you can make anything up as the stated goal of your pill and you will have people who want your money responding to you being like, totally, yes, we got you. And just like making up random ingredients.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The ingredient for that.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly, exactly. And then the fact that you could just put it on the market and like something that I just am finding so interesting is like, we're obviously, you know, rightfully much of the time critical of the pharmaceutical industry, but the wellness industry is estimated to be worth $200 billion by the end of this year and it's completely unregulated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Why is that not something that we're critical of? In the same way, when there's so many random influencers online telling you they're going to fix everything about your body and brain. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The only thing that can actually help you is my supplement.

[Lola Blanc]

And what's it called?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's called Perfect Life.

[Lola Blanc]

Is there something called. I bet you there's one called Perfect Life. Megan's Perfect Life.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Tm and no, it's true. It's true. It's a completely unregulated market and I have very different opinions on the wellness industry. Some of it I find to be very helpful and legitimate. But it is not helped by the fact that you can do that.

[Lola Blanc]

Anybody can do it. Wild bullshit. Anything. Yeah. Like I'm. Of course there are going to be some supplements that are helpful for certain things, but it's impossible to determine without like picking apart what. What works and what doesn't through research. And that just isn't being done is the problem.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. That's why when we made Megan's Perfect Life, we ran test trials for three to five years.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yeah. Oh, that's. That's great.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So go buy it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I. Yeah. There's so much more to say on the wellness industry, but I want to. Yeah, you know what? We should.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's do that.

[Lola Blanc]

All right. But for now, we should hear Lindsay's story.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Through the voices of Erica and Aelin who got to spend so much time with her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's do it.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation With a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces. Anime is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your link. Living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Meaningful Beauty Advertiser]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and release, released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful beauty system for just 49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that available@meaningful beauty.com you know.

[Hill House Home Advertiser]

That fantasy where you run into your ex while looking impossibly cute and wildly unbothered? Hill House makes the perfect dress for that moment. Or if you're just running errands. Hill House Home is the brand behind the viral nap dress. Known for its signature smocking, ultra flattering fit and comfort that makes it a favorite for just about everyone. Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in Hill House. These dresses are the definition of versatile, perfect for running errands in the morning and stylish enough for dinner or a party that night. And it's not all they carry. They started with bedding back in 2016 and now you'll find bathrobes, pajamas, children's clothes and maternity all with the cutest prints. And it's so true. The hardest time picking out one nap dress because the prints are so dreamy and beautiful. But now that I have it, I'm gonna wear it all day every day. I'm gonna throw on my leather jacket at night and look like a total badass cowboy boots or cute heels. Whatever it is, this nap dress can make it look classy. You look like that classy lady you.

[Erica Lance]

See at the airport.

[Hill House Home Advertiser]

Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good. Get 15% off your first order of $100 or more at Hill House Home.com with code murder15. That's murder15 for 15% off at Hill House Home.com goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Aylin and Erica to trust me.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Thank you. We're so excited to be here.

[Lola Blanc]

We're so excited to have you. This is such an incredible harrowing season, and you guys did an incredible job on it. And we have so many questions for you. First of all, so this is actually the third season of your podcast, the Turning. And each season delves into a different sort of story and different people, but they have recurring themes. Can you tell us what made you decide to start the podcast in the first place and what the other seasons were about? Whoever wants to begin?

[Erica Lance]

Kaylin, do you want to go?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You can take it, Erica.

[Erica Lance]

Well, we are very interested in how abuse happens and how it often happens while people are pursuing a very important, lofty goal or something that they love. So season one was about Mother Teresa's religious order and former nuns who were there to help others and wanted to follow Mother Teresa. Help the poor were there to love, but the order was so conservative and intense and restrictive and controlling that it led to a lot of abuse. Season two was about ballerinas who want to pursue their art. And when art is like a religion to you, when art means everything to you, you're willing to give up so much for it. That also leads to a lot of complicated power dynamics and often abuse. You know, seasons one and two were really about cult like groups that are very accepted by society. Season three was about a cult whose leader is now in prison. So it's kind of the next level of this type of group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, much smaller, much more cut off from the mainstream. And how were you introduced to the story at all? How did you find it?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, I think we just encountered it in the media, but I remember I encountered it actually years after it was really big in the news, so I felt behind on it now. At the time I was living elsewhere in Philadelphia, so.

[Erica Lance]

And this takes place in Minnesota, where.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

We'Re from, so maybe I missed it for that reason. But I couldn't believe that, having been from Minneapolis and then now I live here in Minneapolis again, I couldn't believe that I hadn't heard about this story when it was so extreme and so wild. When also I'm somebody who's interested in cults. And here we were with this podcast focused on problematic power dynamics and power hierarchies. I just thought, why don't we focus in on this? Because there's something that just feels personal about it because it existed about two hours away from where we grew up, while we were growing up. And then when we looked into it more and looked up one of the whistleblowers of the group, who was also one of the youngest of the members and also held a special role in the hierarchy of the group. When we found her online and we saw she was in her 30s, somewhat near our age, and got connected with her. Her name is Lindsay Tornombi. And we started interviewing her, we really thought, wow, this is quite a story that more people need to hear and that deserves more space to get more deeply into. You know, it is kind of a luxury to be able to have 10 episodes, plus maybe some bonus episodes, totally focused on one group and what it actually feels like and really homing in on just a few stories within that world and getting to know what it actually felt like.

[Lola Blanc]

I really appreciate how much time we spend with Lindsay, listening to her experience. It just like, it reminded me of so many different groups. But I feel like, you know, we hear a lot less about the ins and outs of the dynamics of what exactly was going on in their minds all the time, because there just isn't that much time to talk to people, honestly.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Absolutely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And I could have listened to 10 more episodes. You know, the story is so dynamic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely unbelievable.

[Lola Blanc]

Was there something. I mean, I want to get into Lindsay's story as well, but I'm just curious, like, is there something in particular in your lives growing up, up that drew you to this kind of topic?

[Erica Lance]

I think of you, Aylin.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I don't know. There's so many layers to this. I mean. Well, I think one thing about my background in particular was that I actually used to study psychology and did psychology research and was trained in giving therapy. And I worked with a number of people who experienced manipulation or also experienced sexual abuse. And I think just the extremes of the human experience has always been something I've been fascinated with, and I. I don't know why, Even though it's. I mean, it's a history of mine that's, I guess, professional. It. When you're seeing patients, it starts to feel personal in hearing their stories and how deeply it impacts them for decades. And honestly, in each of the seasons, we look at power dynamics and how they play out in groups, but also how that can lead to these abusive dynamics, whether it's emotional abuse or physical abuse, financial abuse, simple isolation or sexual abuse. I think we touch on all those topics in each of our seasons, and it's certainly true for this one. I also think. I guess just on a personal level, we grew up going to a Catholic school. When we weren't Catholic, we were also. Did I mention that we are sisters, so.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yeah. That's an important detail. Yeah. You're saying we a lot. Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, we do everything together. I don't know if you want to speak to that at all, Erica. I don't need to answer the entirety of the question.

[Erica Lance]

Well, yeah, I think we just grew up very interested in comparative religion and how different religious organizations work, because we were living in sort of different religious worlds and seeing, like, learning different dogma, different ceremonies, and I don't know, I think that made me very fascinated with religion. The reason I said earlier, Aylin, that I think of you is she has, I think, because of her experience treating patients, just been very passionate about child sexual abuse and how it is portrayed in the media, what kind of space it's given how survivors are treated. And so I think that made us just very passionate about this season in particular.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, can you tell us a little bit about Lindsay, the protagonist of the series, and what her life was like before her parents met Victor Bernard?

[Erica Lance]

She had such a classic 90s childhood, which Aelin and I really related to so many things she told us about her childhood. We're like, us too, us too, us too. Backstreet Boys.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Beanie Babies.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, same.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah.

[Erica Lance]

So, you know, as you talk about constantly on your show, it can really happen to anyone. Her parents were religious and they were in an organization called the Way, which has also been accused of being a cult, which the leader of River Road Fellowship was also in. And they also were involved in things like Amway. And the way Lindsay puts it is her parents were always looking for a leader or someone to follow, and they were seeking, and they would hold religious fellowships in their home, like prayer meetings and speak in tongues. So religion was a big part of her childhood. But was it nine years old, Aelin, that she. Her parents had some dinner guests over, one of whom was Victor Bernard, the leader of River Road Fellowship. And they learned that he had created this compound in rural Minnesota where a bunch of families were living together in what seemed like a really idyllic, beautiful way. And that was how they got introduced to River Road Fellowship and changed all their lives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What stood out to me about that was that she loved gymnastics. And then suddenly they were like, no more gymnastics. I mean, it really was like the childhood version of a dinner from hell that your parents go to, and suddenly.

[Lola Blanc]

Everything you just a portal to a nightmare. Yeah. Well, firstly, one detail about Lindsay that I thought was so relatable was they were still in the previous church or cult. She was talking about how she didn't know how to speak in tongues. So she would plan, she would, like, write out in advance what she was going to verbalize when she was speaking in tongues, which feels totally like something that I would do. And. Yeah, I just thought that was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's really cute.

[Lola Blanc]

Really cute.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was planning ahead.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Very responsible.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Erica Lance]

It's amazing how sometimes you feel like, oh, I'm the only person who has to plan. But then when you get older, you learn how everyone is planning what they're going to say and everyone is feeling so self conscious about it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I mean, isn't that kind of becoming an adult? You're kind of like, we're all frauds, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The emperor has no clothes is what I always go back to. Like, it's that childhood story, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, we've talked a million times about, like, trying to feel the spirit when everyone else is feeling the spirit and they're crying and you're like, I'm doing it wrong. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

He must have been the most compelling dinner guest of all time, because how can that much happen from such a dinner? Like, did you get any details about what was discussed?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I mean, I think. I think it was like kind of a friend of a friend. What's interesting to me is that Lindsay describes remembering him as sensing right away that this was someone of importance. He had a certain presence, and he did also have a charisma. But also it's interesting how. And I feel like I sense this across numerous of our seasons. It's like the people that are idolized both feel very special, but also they're very ordinary, too. Like, she talked about how he really smelled strongly of cigarettes and they were like, basically chain smoking cigarettes on the front porch when they visited and just felt very ordinary at the same time. And in a way, Lindsay remarked on how it didn't actually feel that significant, you know, and they were, you know, putting on a little singing and dancing show for them in their living room.

[Erica Lance]

Like the children were.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

It was very casual and kind of ordinary. And I do think it wasn't just like one dinner. And they were in. They're moving to Minnesota. It was actually a gradual process where, you know, first they would join some fellowship meetings where the way the group started out were just in fellowship meetings in people's homes, kind of basically prayer groups. And then over time, it became more defined. And eventually they bought the property in Minnesota for everyone to move to. And so then Lindsay's family started visiting the camp, the compound, basically, in Minnesota. And they went there and they saw the beautiful lake and the pond and all the trees and Basically, it felt like a summer camp where there are all these cabins and trailers and a lodge and there's a dining hall and they're all singing songs together and enjoying each other's company. And as a kid, they're playing Sign Me Up.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it sounds fun as well.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, I'm in. Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

It felt like this wonderful place. And I can. I can see the temptation of just letting it all go and moving to this place where everyone seems so happy. And that's what her parents decided. After multiple visits, Victor, the leader of the group, Victor Bernard, gave them an ultimatum and said, if you're going to continue to be a part of our group, River Road Fellowship, you need to move out to Minnesota. And that required them to sell their home, sell all their, quote, earthly things, and even getting rid of family members photos and all that kind of thing. They sold their home very quickly, I would imagine probably getting a bad deal on it. And within weeks, they were moving out to Minnesota after that ultimatum conversation. So I do think it wasn't like that one dinner changed everything. It was a gradual thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right. That is my misremembering.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, I mean, also at the same time, it was a pivotal moment was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

His message from the beginning, this is the one true way. Come to this compound.

[Lola Blanc]

This is where. And like, I'm the prophet, you're going to be saved.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, I know there was a very, like, when Jesus comes back, like, the compound's going straight to heaven. Did it start off that way? Like, was that the impetus of, like, let's hurry, let's move.

[Erica Lance]

My impression is that it didn't immediately begin with, Jesus is coming any day. You know, even before Lindsay's family joined, it was so much more casual. And it was these casual prayer groups. And I also think he catered the message to what people needed. Another person we interview is named Krista. And like Lindsay, she was a child in the cult, but in her case, she was basically born into it. And her parents joined long before Lindsay's parents did. And in the case of her parents, they were already friends through work with Victor and his wife. And they were very done with organized religion because they'd had bad experiences.

[Lola Blanc]

And.

[Erica Lance]

And they said, look, we believe in God, but we're done with organized religion. And Victor said, if you love God, you will love this. And so that was what they needed to hear to join. And so I don't think they ever thought, oh, yes, let's join a cult, let's join organized religion. That's what they didn't want. But as time passed, you start getting more messaging about Jesus's return is coming, we have to be ready. And it was much easier to have those more extreme urgent messages once they were all living in the same place.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. As typically, it will escalate over time once everyone's under control because no one's advertising where it's gonna go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The playbook.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The playbook at play.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Side note, so in the podcast, y' all talk about how Victor Bernard was class president, right?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

My prophet in quotes that I believed in was also class president, I found out, which is fascinating to me. It's like they want to lead somehow and they, you know, they could have gone into politics or, you know, some other, like, less nefarious path, but instead they chose to control people for a living.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whoa.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Erica Lance]

And they have that training of getting people to vote for them. I mean, when I was in high school, I always thought, how does anyone go for class president? Maybe I just was so unpopular that.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I was like, how do you convince the majority of the school to vote for you?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's funny how those dynamics.

[Lola Blanc]

There's an ambition, there's a desire to be above people. Or it could just be an ambition to organize your school, you know, but like, yeah, I just, I've never heard of that before.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you drew, you drew a connection. I like it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And it's also the age old question of is it that people who seek power are those who are more likely to abuse or is it that power corrupts? It's like I can never figure out what the answer is and there's some kind of interaction there.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe. Where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, annabe is the only machine washable space sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus, our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality. For price, visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living shipping space today. With no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee, get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Meaningful Beauty Advertiser]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and relief, released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just 49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that [e-mail] you know that fantasy.

[Hill House Home Advertiser]

Where you run into your ex while looking impossibly cute and wildly unbothered? Hill House makes the perfect dress for that moment. Or if you're just running errands. Hill House Home is the brand behind the viral nap dress. Known for its signature smocking, ultra flattering fit and comfort that makes it a favorite for just about everyone. Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in Hill House. These dresses are the definition of versatile, perfect for running errands in the morning and stylish enough for dinner or a party that night. And it's not all they carry. They started with bedding back in 2016 and now you'll find bathrobes, pajamas, children's clothes and maternity all with the cutest prints. And it's so true. I had the hardest time picking out one nap dress because the prints are so dreamy and beautiful. But now that I have it, I'm going to wear it all day, every day. I'm going to throw on my leather jacket at night and look like a total badass. Cowboy boots or cute heels. Whatever it is, this nap dress can make it look classy. You look like that classy lady you.

[Erica Lance]

See at the airport.

[Hill House Home Advertiser]

Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good. Get 15% off your first order of $100 or more at HillhouseHome.com with code murder15. That's murder15 for 15% off@hillhouse home.com.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, so once they get there, I mean, the fact that they immediately had to get rid of all of their possessions. I mean, people were also. They burned their possessions in a fire. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

The whole idea was that they were supposed to leave behind their earthly life. So leave behind anything that reminds you of your past, of your childhood, of anything that happened before you were part of River Road Fellowship. And so one way that they wanted to literally do that, but also kind of, I would argue, symbolically, was they built this big bonfire in the middle of the back of a yard behind a barn on their compound in Minnesota. And they just started throwing belongings from their past into the fire. And everyone was encouraged to burn things from their past. Anything that would hold them back from giving all of themselves to the group. They threw in couches, they threw in, you know, all kinds of things to.

[Erica Lance]

The point a motorcycle, I think.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

A motorcycle.

[Lola Blanc]

A motorcycle. Just, wow.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

All these belongings that reminded them of the past. VHS, like, videotapes, books. And then Lindsay felt like she had to throw something in. And she was so young, she thought to herself, what's something that's important to me from my past that I can give? And so she threw in her teddy bear into the fire and watched it burn.

[Lola Blanc]

That's so sad. That's so sad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the fire burned for, like, three days and was gigantic. Correct.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's creepy.

[Lola Blanc]

That is really creepy. I wrote a scene in a cult movie that's almost exactly this, but I've never heard of it. Actually, I can help you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How do you responsibly keep a fire that. I guess it's not responsible.

[Lola Blanc]

Irresponsibly?

[Megan Elizabeth]

How? I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

Also just the pollution anyway. I mean. Yeah, it's just like, the elimination of identity and attachment to one's previous life and connections to other people or things. Things that might remind them of anything outside the cult is just so malicious.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And your childhood, literally. Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Can you tell us about Christa and the Little House on the Prairie books also, and the fact that I have to know more about her mom's sickness. Can you just tell us that story?

[Erica Lance]

Well, Christa's mother had something called sarcoidosis, and in her case, it was affecting her lungs, and she was having trouble breathing and. Which sounds miserable. And she talked to Victor about it because Victor started having. He would advise his followers, especially the women in the lodge, which is where he lived, I'm hoping. I think he was living at the lodge by that point. And he told her, it's not physical. This is spiritual. There's something wrong that you're doing that's causing you to be sick, which I just think is one of the worst things you can ever tell someone on so many levels. So she's looking for something that's wrong. Now, Krista, who we haven't talked about much yet, but she's a big part of the podcast. She was a child, and I. I love talking to Krista because she just. She kind of talks about how she saw things differently than the people around her. And she said, you know, come to find out that as an adult, she's neurodivergent. And that, I think she said, both aided and, like, made it difficult to have, like, live life in the culture. But she loved her books, and that was how she escaped. She was a huge bookworm, and she loved reading Little House on the Prairie. Now, it turns out that River Road Fellowship had this belief that certain things, certain items had devil spirits attached to them and were filled with darkness. And Little House in the Prairie books was one of those things. We're not entirely sure why. I think, Aelin, we asked Lindsay why Little House on the Prairie is like a double spirit. And if I remember correctly, she was kind of positing that maybe just because it had these, like, strong women and, like, female. And it seemed like there were other books, too, that featured women who, you know, they were devil spirit books and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Family oriented, not, like, giving your, you know, like, it's a very strong family unit in those books.

[Erica Lance]

So true.

[Lola Blanc]

But not all books were banned. It was like, specific ones were. Had devil characteristics.

[Erica Lance]

That's my understanding. I don't think all books were considered.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Evil, which also, I'll add, I feel like that's something about this group in general, that Victor would just kind of come up with new rules as he went about life. You know, it's hard for me to even say we're fully familiar with the belief system because it did evolve over time, I mean, as it often does in these types of groups. But, yeah, I'm sure that that list of what had devil spirits attached changed over time.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Right. Yeah. I mean, she did talk about how it was, like, one of the most important things in her life. And, yeah, it was taken away from her by her mother. There are so many mothers in this podcast that I am really mad at. There's a lot of really unfortunate mothering happening.

[Erica Lance]

And one thing I should say, just to explain to listeners the end of that story, is that because her mother was looking for something wrong, she took those books from under Christa's bed and burned them in their wood stove in front of Christa while Krista was just crying and screaming and begging for her to stop. And Christa actually burned her hands trying to save her books. And she said it was like this incredibly traumatic moment of her childhood because reading books was how she escaped the harshness of cult life. And so her escape was gone. And you can't just rebuy the books. Like they're not going to bookstores and buying books. Those are gone. As far as she knows, she will never see those books again in her life.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And she felt that she was the cause of her mother's illness because then after that, her mother's illness improved, as it can happen with the condition sarcoidosis. And so it felt like she had caused it. And even I think Victor announced to the community, like, this is an example. And so Christa felt also a lot of guilt and shame around that.

[Lola Blanc]

Right? Oh my God, I cannot imagine.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And just a reminder to listeners who might be from a different generation, there's no iPads or anything to be looked at at this time. Like the books were her only real source of entertainment. Yeah, sad.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Incredibly sad. Can we discuss Jan for a moment? Because, you know, we were saying before we started recording that we see so many men like Victor, so many of these abusive men who are manipulating people and controlling them for the purpose of abusing them. But the Jans of the world are always just so interesting to me because she is this woman who's kind of his right hand person. Right. Like, what was her deal?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So we should acknowledge that Jan actually isn't her real name for reasons that I won't get into. But she was a person who people described as being kind of a secondhand authority to Victor. Although, I mean, there were also other people really high up in the group. It's like it's kind of a complicated thing, but she worked very closely with him. And she was actually there that first night at the dinner party when Victor came to their home in Pennsylvania and introduced them to the idea of the group. And so she was often there and she was a mother herself. I know you mentioned motherhood earlier, but essentially what ended up happening is that Lindsay, along with nine other girls or young women, were selected to be what they called maidens. What is a maiden so, essentially, 10 young people, all girls or women, who would move away from their family homes, live right next door to where Victor lived on the main camp property, because the group actually had multiple different properties. So, for example, Lindsay's family lived elsewhere, pretty close, but still technically on a different property. And so all of these girls would go and live right next to the lodge where Victor lived. And basically what they said was kind of devote their lives to God and commit to help the church. What that actually looked like was cleaning Victor's house, cooking for him, taking care of things, providing company for him. And one could argue that Jan was heavily involved in kind of organizing this group of girls watching over them. And, in fact, one of her own daughters was one of the ten maidens.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my gosh.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And so all these families are basically giving up their firstborn daughter to Victor and to the community. And one day, in the middle of their worship time, in the chapel, at the front of the chapel, Victor tells everyone, I have selected these 10 girls to commit as maidens. And he named them one by one, and Lindsay heard her name, and so it was decided that they would move to the camp, Lindsay thought, for the summer. She thought it would be like summer camp, basically, to help. I don't know, help around the camp and everything. But then when the summer was nearing the end, and she thought she was gonna go home, she was doing something in the garden with Jan, and Jan told her, no, Lindsay, this commitment was for life. You're not going home.

[Erica Lance]

And she was 13.

[Lola Blanc]

13. The feeling that I felt hearing, just, like, imagining being her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's a nightmare.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. The claustrophobia, the terror. Like, wait, what? They signed me up at age 13 for a permanent?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. How was this floated to the parents?

[Erica Lance]

Well, initially, it was seen as this honor. And I do think it's interesting that there are more than 10 families in this camp. But he picked 10 families who were sort of seen as, like, the elders, the special people. So the special families, their firstborn daughters were being chosen. So already that's signaling this is quite an honor. And then he said that this is a huge honor. And Lindsay even said, you know, as the years passed, because she was a maiden, for a long time, it felt like, wow, out of the entire world, I was one of the ten chosen. I am so lucky. She had very complicated feelings, which we can get into. But in addition, after they had lived there for a while. Let's see. How do I. What order do I tell this in? I guess one thing we should say is it became clear that it wasn't just taking care of Victor. It was also he was going to sleep with these children or young women and rape them regularly. And that was the role that they were going to serve. And after some time had passed, he had individual meetings. Well, actually, first he had every single maiden write a letter saying that they wanted to remain maidens. Of course, there was a lot of manipulation going into that, but Lindsay really feeling like she was trapped at this point, did as she was told and wrote this letter and said, I want to be a maiden. Then he had one at a time meetings with the parents of each of these maidens. And an elder in the church was there as well to, again, give this sense of legitimacy. And he told them, we're gonna keep them here, and when they turn 18, I may sleep with them as part of that. Of course, at this point, he'd already been raping them. But the fact that parents would hear, your teenage daughter, I'm going to sleep with her when she's 18. And then they would say, all of them said, yes, take her, is so unfathomable to me. And there are many. That's something we wrestle with in the show. Like, clearly they were brainwashed. And then also, at some point, don't you protect your child, regardless of brainwashing?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It gets complicated because, yeah, they can't all be terrible parents. It really speaks to the power of the trust that they had the trust and the. This is the right thing to do. And it's just a mind warp that is really hard for people to understand. How old was Victor when this was taking place?

[Erica Lance]

I think he was in his 40s at this point. Aelin, does that sound right?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I mean, I think he was kind of in his mid-30s when he really started the group, but either late-30s or early-40s when. When he introduced the idea of the spiritual marriage ceremony, which is what he called it and they called it, which that even on its own, is telling. A spiritual marriage ceremony. Why is marriage involved in this for these underage girls?

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right. Just to kind of, like, paint the picture of, like, the level of indoctrination that was happening in the group at this point, because it is so unfathomable that a parent could do that. Like, what was the general belief about who he was? Like, was he in touch with God directly? Like, what was his authority in the group?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, he basically called himself an apostle, so he saw himself as this representative of God. He called himself a shepherd. At some point along the way, he even started wearing shepherd's clothes. And held a staff.

[Erica Lance]

Stop. The pictures are wild. Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

He basically had this ability to discern what was good, what was bad, what had devil spirits attached, what was in the light. He also used a phrase called living in the light, where people are expected to live in a way that he should be able to know everything about them. And if there's anything that they wouldn't want him to know, that that's bad, that basically everything should be brought to the light and open. Which I feel like, theoretically, on a religious level, maybe that makes sense. You want to be good and not be harboring these evil whatever, like bad behaviors or something. But ultimately, that's about control, and that that means he's allowed to ask you whatever he wants about you, and you should be honest. And if you're not honest, well, then you might not get the special heaven that is promised to you. And if you are part of this inner circle of the group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And what I gathered from it was that he was kind of inferring, like, I can also read your mind a bit, or, like, I also know what's in your heart. And also, like, why would a man in his 40s need to know everything about a little girl?

[Erica Lance]

So true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, clearly controlling everyone was his bag. Like, you know, my mother believed that my prophet was a prophet, and he told her that we had to be separated, and she wouldn't do what he told him, but we were separated, and it was because of just the threats that he was making to her ability to see us in the afterlife. Like, he was threatening her to never see us again in heaven for all of eternity if she didn't comply. So there was this coercion that was happening. I'm curious if there were any eternal threats to anyone's salvation if they didn't do what he wanted.

[Erica Lance]

It's amazing how similar it is. The exact same threat of, you won't necessarily go to hell if you leave this group. Maybe you will, but you won't be in the special heaven that your entire family will be. So your family will. You'll never see your family again, not only in this life, but in the next life. So it's amazing how these same themes come back over and over again. And I'm so sorry that you went through that. And I could imagine you relating to a lot of Lindsay's story. But, yeah, that was an absolute threat that hung over everyone. And then there's also, like, that's both the carrot and the stick, because the carrot is you get the special heaven and he said, in this special heaven, you get your own planet, and your own planet can be anything you want, and this is gonna be your reward in afterlife. And they would talk about what their planets would be like all the time. So that's so enticing and exciting. And you also know what you'll lose if you don't obey.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That reminds me of Iris Tulala.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like the.

[Lola Blanc]

We were special.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, well, we.

[Lola Blanc]

We didn't talk about the planet, but Mormonism talks about planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You get your own cult sucked so bad that it was. You won't know who's in heaven at all. You're never gonna see your family again because you're gonna be so sad that so many of them aren't there.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. So horrible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why are we laughing? So crazy. So mean.

[Lola Blanc]

That's so mean. So. Yeah, yeah. But just, you know, for people who cannot fathom how that would happen, it's like there is so much going on in your brain about the stakes of if you do not comply. And there's so much that needs to be done to. You know, there's so much cognitive dissonance.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's like eternity versus whatever. A few years that are, like, not great.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And also just like the level of denial that people are capable of in terms of like, well, he wouldn't do it to my child. Or he wouldn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's holy. He's not really going to sleep with them when they turn 18. He might just be saying that. But he's actually, you know, nobody wants.

[Lola Blanc]

To believe that that could have happened on their watch. Yes. Nobody wants to believe that. That's such an important point, which is.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Why it's so important to talk about these stories and have podcasts like yours and what we're doing. So that. But it's like that is a reality that happens to people and it's not just this far off thing. Like, it can happen to anybody.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. What was the age range of all the maidens?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I think it was about age 12 to 23. So Lindsay was the second youngest. There was one younger than her named Jess, whom she was really close with.

[Erica Lance]

They were besties.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

They're quite young. Through early twenties.

[Lola Blanc]

That is horrifically young. So they do this spiritual wedding ceremony. My mom was also spiritually married to. It's just crazy how much they do the same thing. And also this other Warren Jeffs, cult leader replacement. Same thing with him, with children as well. What was this? Sarah. So they marry. He married 10 girls all at the Same time. Like, what was that in the group?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I mean, the way I think it was framed is that this was a spiritual marriage ceremony, sort of to the church, to God, but also kind of to Victor. And the idea was, again, that they would live together and totally devote their lives to serving the church. But also, since Victor was the apostle, essentially serve Victor. And they had this ceremony in the middle of winter on one of the coldest days. And it was in the evening, so it was dark. And they had these lanterns, and it was all sort of, like, candlelit. And they wore little kind of crocheted lace veils, which Lindsay showed us. And they each got a gold ring with a symbol on it. And they took salt, which is something that happens in some marriage ceremonies. And Lindsay's own parents had taken salt at their wedding. So it felt very similar on sort of a visibility level to each of them. Ten in a row lined up marrying Victor that day. And all the parents were there, many of the elders. So this community just accepted this is the way it is now.

[Erica Lance]

One thing that strikes me about how that was primed as well. And when we were talking about what is Victor's role in the church and what do they believe, he started leading up to this, talking a lot about the Song of Solomon and all of this sort of erotic love always in the Bible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

David. King David.

[Erica Lance]

Yep.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Solomon. Yes, exactly.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Exactly.

[Erica Lance]

So this, you know, this romantic poetry of, like. And then these metaphors of the church and God and, you know, it really turned into this, like, fever pitch of. And there was even this one year that they called it the Summer of Love. And all of the women were very much falling in love with Victor. And actually, Lindsay talks about how she felt like her mother was jealous of her. And there was this idea, like, you're supposed to almost kind of show romantic love to Victor, who is, like, representing God. So he called himself an apostle, but he became like God to them. And he started laying out these rules, one of which was you weren't allowed to touch each other anymore. And it was very like, keep your hands to yourself. The exception, of course, is Victor. You're supposed to hug Victor, touch him, show physical affection to him. So there's this weird, like, romantic vibe going already between everyone and him before this happens. Even the men, I think not so much the men. And that's why the women, like, started to. I don't know. They were. They were centered in this way. I mean, initially, like, as I think, Aylin, you mentioned earlier, it's like the men were centered and they went off on this. These spiritual retreats, just the men. And there was this sexism inside the group where men have certain authority that women don't. But then women also have this, like, special relationship with Victor. And so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. I mean, he's like, let's go on a special camping trip where we talk about how men are more important. I'll stay back behind and take care of the women. Like, it's like a very clever card trick. And your first season, when you were talking about the nuns, you were talking about how they were so not supposed to touch each other or anything. Like, they weren't even supposed to hold babies for a very long amount of time. Like, how was this bleeding into family life and how they were taking care of their children?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

That's a good question. Well, one little detail that comes to mind is one of Lindsay's aunts, early on in their time there, actually visited the camp or visited the location, at least where Lindsay's family was staying as part of the group. And first of all, she saw red flags when she heard that, oh, Lindsay's no longer living with us. She's living on the main camp with some families there. And even the aunt at the time thought, oh, my gosh. I mean, is Lindsay pregnant? That's a horrible thought. She's still so young. But, like, why can't I see Lindsay? So that was a red flag for her. But then I think one other detail that is interesting is just that the aunt wasn't allowed to be alone in the room with the kids, even with the door open. And so I would imagine that especially with these rules about touch and everything, that there is this extra distance. Like, you always need to be sort of watching each other, and you can't kind of have intimacy. Because I do think, like, in childhood, learning intimacy and love and warmth in, like, a healthy way is so important. But if you always feel like you're being watched, and also maybe are you supposed to hug your kid? And even Lindsay, during the spiritual marriage ceremony, felt like she couldn't even look her parents in the eye because another thing they had been taught was that you should save your eyes, which, interestingly, also occurred in season one, what they call dove's eyes in the Missionaries of Charity, where you shouldn't be looking outward at the world, you should be looking down, keeping your eyes kind of focused on your spirituality or whatever. But a similar thing happened here. And so even just things like that physicality and where you're looking and how that impacts your social relationships, especially growing up in that. I guess that doesn't exactly answer your question, but I can certainly imagine that affects family dynamics.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. That's horrible.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah. I cannot imagine growing up like that. It makes me think about Scientology, too. Jenna Miscavige and how children. Yeah. Just weren't allowed to experience joy or express joy or like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Yeah. I will say another priming thing that I saw in the two by twos. And we might have to take this out because I'm not even sure if it applies, but, like, there's this verse in the Bible that was very drilled into our heads that was like. And the end of times. Father against brother, brother against mother. Like, family against family. Like, we were very taught that when Jesus returns, the family would be divided and we would have to fight against each other for good and evil.

[Erica Lance]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So this breaking up of the family unit is such a, like, important tactic. And if you're not feeling close to people, and if you're not, you know, you're scared that they might tempt you out of your salvation, et cetera. It just is this perfect storm for the cult leader to get more power.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, exactly. And the Scientology reference was not completely random because they were also. The children were kept separate from the adults. They were not supposed to have relationships with each other, at least in the Sea Org. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's perfect recipe.

[Lola Blanc]

You can't have people be close to each other because then they might talk, and then they might think differently, and then they might question, and then the power might be at risk.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And if you're like, child is crying, and you emotionally bond with them, suddenly.

[Lola Blanc]

That'S gonna be more important.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Victor isn't at top of mind.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[Erica Lance]

Well, it makes me think of this one story Lindsay told us about one time she had a cavity or something and she had to go to the dentist. And eventually she wouldn't even be allowed to go to the dentist. And they would just kind of, like, get dental tools and, like, treat each other and clean each other's teeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Erica Lance]

But she had to go to the dentist, and her mother took her. And now she. I think she was 14 at this time, and she had this gold ring on that married her to Victor. And the person at the dentist asked, oh, what's that like? Trying to be friendly with the ring. And Lindsay didn't know what to say, and her mother just kind of jumped in and was like, oh, it means her commitment to the church. But as soon as they got back to the camp, her mother went straight to Victor and, like, told on Lindsay. So Lindsay got in huge trouble, and he's yelling at her. And she has to learn, right? Like, if she ever does go to the outside world again, like, you have to have a story ready for what your role is or why. Or they used to talk about, like, if someone comes into the camp, why aren't you living with your parents? You have to have a story. But it just struck Aelin in me how her mother is turning on her already. Like, her priority is Victor and she's tattling, essentially. That's a mild way of putting it on her own daughter.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. At every stage, her mother chooses Victor over Lindsay. I mean, and it's just so heartbreaking to hear.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So Lindsay and Jess were kind of talking about escaping, and Lindsay had a plan that is kind of shocking. Can one of you describe that plan?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah. Well, she and Jess, the other youngest of the maidens, often just fantasize about, oh, what could we do to escape, to get out of here. And they talk about just somehow stealing a car or something and going to the local just little shop in town and getting help. But then they were like, that could never happen. But as also the sexual abuse continued, eventually Lindsay thought to herself, well, and this is getting a little graphic here, but Victor would have them use some kind of spermicide when he would abuse them. And so she tried to use it incorrectly so that in theory, maybe she would become pregnant and go to the hospital and she could tell someone what was happening and that might be a way out. But of course, Victor noticed that she didn't do it correctly. And then also, eventually he got a vasectomy. So Lindsay never became pregnant from Victor, but she clearly was desperate to escape. And I think what's interesting, too, is, and I guess we don't actually talk about this in the podcast, but I get the sense that in some ways it wasn't even, like, fully thought out in her brain, as, like, I am trying to find ways to escape. Like, doing the spermicide thing, it was just like, oh, like, maybe I could get in touch with someone and that would lead something to change. And on some level, deep down, yes, of course it was to escape, But I almost think it's like, this is just my impression, but that it was like her mind couldn't even fully go there, if that makes sense.

[Erica Lance]

Like, fully leaving the church probably wasn't necessarily the goal because that would mean so many bad things for her soul, et cetera, et cetera. But, like, she needed to get out too, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Maybe of the maidens, at least.

[Erica Lance]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

When did she have her quick trip to Brazil? It feels like that might have been pretty. What is the word I'm looking for?

[Lola Blanc]

Pivotal. Momentous.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Erica Lance]

That was in 2009.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Erica Lance]

And so she had been a maiden for quite a few years at this point. And one thing that's interesting is she'd been a maiden for quite some time. And I really appreciated how open Lindsay was with us about how her perception of the abuse changed. So initially, she's, I will get pregnant to escape if I have to. But she's told over and over again, this. This sexual abuse is God's love. And she's kind of convinced to fall in love with Victor, as everyone else in the cult has. And I think that was something that we really wanted to get across about child sexual abuse, because I think a lot of survivors feel so much shame about that, and they think, oh, like, I was in love with him, or I sometimes tried to get him to have sex with me, because now that is associated with, like, the good things. And withholding sex becomes a punishment, really. Withholding rape becomes a punishment. So it's very complicated. And so by the time she went to Brazil, she was much more, like, in the cult, like, much more, like brainwashed and deep in it. But the reason she went to Brazil is because one of the maidens was originally from Brazil and was having some immigration issues and so had to move back to Brazil for a while while they sorted it. And one of the rules they had was maidens could never really be alone. They were always in pairs, which is something we heard in other seasons of our podcast and I think is in many cults, which is so fascinating. So the maidens would take turns for a while, going to Brazil and living with this other maiden in Brazil.

[Lola Blanc]

And.

[Erica Lance]

And it was here she is flying on a plane for the first, like, leaving the compound first of all, which is wild. And then flying on a plane and seeing regular life again. I think that was where some things started to be sparked of. There is life outside of this compound in Minnesota.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's just such an exciting feeling to imagine being, like, reintroduced to the world and going to the airport. I remember her saying, like, there were TVs on the back of the seats she had. Oh, yeah, it's. Yeah. What a. I can only imagine what was happening in her mind at that time. That must have been so surreal.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And it just echoes of so many stories we've heard of people experiencing anything outside of the Group or getting a little bit of time alone and that being just, you know, starting to crack a little bit of the indoctrination, like, oh, I don't have to live like that. Oh, these people aren't all evil. Hmm. That's interesting. That's different from what I mean.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And still you're scared. Like, she speaks about wanting to watch a movie on the plane and she was like, I can't, I can't, Victor. Well, no, like kind of he's watching her even when he's not watching her. You know, like he has special powers or something. But the littlest cracks can sometimes really take a hold in the best way.

[Lola Blanc]

There was a. A fake rapture moment, right?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Love a good fake rapture moment for any group experience like this.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Obviously that was sarcasm, but.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Victor told them all that, you know, one day Christ will come back and he will come back at their camp right by the pond where they lit a lantern every night to show Jesus where to come to find them. And it even brought forth this policy of eventually the members were expected to never leave a 30 minute radius of being near to the camp. So they couldn't go beyond 30 minutes outside of the camp without special dispensation or for particular reasons, which, when you're.

[Erica Lance]

In rural Minnesota, you can't go many places in 30 minutes. So that's very isolating.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And part of the reason for that policy was that you needed to be close enough so that if Christ returned, you'd be able to get to the camp in time. And so much of Victor's talk and preaching focused on the sense of urgency of, you need to be ready, you need to be ready. He could come at any time. And you need to, you know, be staying in the sufferings and following all these rules so that you are ready when he comes and you don't know when he'll come. And it would be an announcement of the eagles are gathering. It was a code that indicated that Jesus Christ had returned and was at the camp. And so one day the alarm bells start going and everyone at all their properties which are nearby start yelling out, the eagles are gathering. The eagles are gathering. And everyone is freaking out. Lindsay's like, oh my God. Oh my goodness. The eagles are gathering. And people leave their showers with shampoo in. They leave their ovens on, their ironing thing on. You know, they're doing things that are, you know, normally kind of irresponsible. They go to the camp, their Victor is to meet them. And it turns out it was just A test. Jesus hadn't returned. He was just making sure that they were ready for when it actually happened. So. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. It's such a movie.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If I were standing there with shampoo in my hair, that would, I think, be my breaking point.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Now you're off to a bad hair day, you know?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. The whole.

[Lola Blanc]

Like that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I just.

[Erica Lance]

Just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's that this personality type just pushes shit so far. Like. And. And there's something about it that I think they do on purpose. So that people who aren't as invested are like, fuck this, I'm leaving a little bit. You know what I mean? So that they can keep a control on a tighter group. Because that's so. And. And like, to state dates that then don't come true. It just seems so.

[Lola Blanc]

But they all do it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But they all do it. And it works.

[Lola Blanc]

It does work.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's weird.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And it makes people double down.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It makes people double. It's like a trauma bond. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is.

[Erica Lance]

It's like you enact this thing and that cognitive dissonance thing. Like, I did this. So I have to believe that it is true and it was for a good reason. Otherwise, why did I do this? Crazy behavior.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Also, one piece to this story that was fascinating to me. I specifically was asking Lindsay, like, how did people react? Were they pissed? Be so let down. I would think, oh, I'm about to go to heaven and now I have to go back to shower the shampoo out. You know, I'd be a little annoyed or maybe even angry. But she said the general mood was laughter and, like, kind of a. Oh, Victor, you pulled that one on us. And kind of like a bonding moment of happiness as opposed to anger, which I don't know. I just. I thought that was so fascinating.

[Lola Blanc]

That was interesting to me, too. I was like, they wouldn't be. They weren't pissed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It reminds me of Guinevere Turner's book, where in the very beginning, they're getting ready because they've announced that Jesus is coming back. And everybody has their best outfits on their best handbags, and it doesn't happen. And the mood is slightly similar. It's, like.

[Erica Lance]

So strange.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, before we were talking to you guys, we were also having this conversation about a former guest, Vikram Gandhi, who made a movie called Kumare, documenting him basically pretending to be a guru. And at the end of the film, he reveals to these followers he has gotten that he's not actually Kumare. He's just A regular guy. And some of them are really angry at him. And some of them are like, that was the lesson. You are our leader. That was the real lesson. You know, like. And it just goes to show that, like, once you believe in a person, nothing, it doesn't matter what they say. It doesn't matter how much they change the belief or the ideology. It doesn't matter if the thing doesn't come true, because they'll just come up with something else. Once you trust the person, anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Cause that's a great point, because no other leaders, to my knowledge, have been like, just kidding. I was full of complete shit. He did it. And it's still. People are still like, we believe you that you're a leader.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, once you've established this connection in your mind, that, no, this person is the source of truth for me, they can say anything and they can tell you to do anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so scary.

[Erica Lance]

It's terrifying.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I saw that movie years ago and that was mind blowing. That's right.

[Lola Blanc]

So how did Lindsay get to the point of actually getting out of the Maidens and then the group?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, I think it was a gradual process, but also happened all at once, as these things do. She had been, you know, exposed to the outside world a little bit more in Brazil, as we discussed then, actually, because of some interesting laws in Minnesota around people of the church or clergy having relationships with people they lead and the fact that that can be charged criminally, they actually moved their base to Washington State. And part of that, which maybe we don't need to get into because we don't need to get into every detail of the story, was that one of the adult women in the group had gone to police and reported that he had been coercing her and women into sex. So we don't actually get as much into that in the podcast because we were really focusing more on the child experience and we can't get to every single perspective. I wish we could spend another five years on this story, but presumably, based on everything else, I would assume he was likely also abusing a lot of adult women. Anyway, Lindsay hears about this. Victor tells the Maidens that he's been having sex with adult married women in.

[Erica Lance]

The group because it's out now. He kind of has no choice.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

It's out in the public, and he's even kind of on the run a little bit. He doesn't really let anyone know where he is. He kind of bops in and out, blips in and out. Lindsay somehow Clings onto that as a reason that it just feels wrong to her now. What's interesting is the deeper we talked with her about why she left, she kind of used that as her reason to state why she was going to leave. And I do think that might have been part of it. But I do think underneath it all, it was just more exposure to the outside world. Because also in Brazil and then in Washington, she had more exposure to the outside world. The Maidens developed this, like, house cleaning service. She was in people's homes, seeing TVs exposed to more media. And one day she was watching TV March of the Penguins with another maiden. And she just looked over to the other maiden and without planning much, said, I don't feel good about what Victor's doing with sleeping with the married women. And that ultimately led her to talk to Jan, that second in command woman. And ultimately she basically said, I want to leave. And she says to this day that because Victor wasn't with her physically, and they just had a phone conversation about it, she thinks that if Victor had been there in person, he would have convinced her to stay, just as he'd done many times before. But somehow she had something in her that just said, this is enough. And she said, I want to leave. And so she was allowed to leave in sort of this condoned way. She moved back in, actually, with her parents that had. Since they'd moved back to Pennsylvania when the Minnesota kind of commune broke up. Anyway, it's kind of complicated, but the point is, it was kind of like her saying, I am leaving, moving out, and then getting more and more exposed to the outside world and eventually moving away from her parents as well, who are still following Victoria.

[Erica Lance]

Because when she initially left, she was leaving the Maidens. She was staying in the church, but living with her parents. But, you know, then she started really experiencing the outside world and left entirely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

People are gonna have to listen to the series. I mean, it goes everywhere, to the Dr. Phil show, to, you know, it takes twists and turns. And there's a manhunt for Victor, like Most Wanted manhunt. Yeah. It's a very compelling story.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And after doing this, how is Lindsay now? How's she doing?

[Erica Lance]

I think she's doing well. She has a daughter now. And so I think being a mother brings up so much for her. She understands even more what it meant when her parents gave her up. And also what it meant when her parents didn't fully support her after. Especially her mother, who actually wrote to a judge against Lindsay supporting Victor.

[Lola Blanc]

That was so Upsetting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's.

[Erica Lance]

It's so upsetting. And so then becoming a mother, it's. She can. It's hard to imagine, you know, doing that to your own daughter, but it's also, I think, is very healing because she is gonna make sure that nothing like this happens to her daughter. And she's trying all kinds of ways to have conversations with her daughter about things like this, you know, preventing abuse from happening by just speaking more freely with her daughter. Her daughter doesn't know everything that happened in her past, but knows like kind of the. The short version, PG version. But she just has such a beautiful relationship with her daughter. And I think that is so uplifting and gives me so much hope because she's creating the childhood she didn't have. Her childhood was fully robbed from her and she is like giving that to her daughter. So I think she's just building a beautiful life for herself and she also really wants people to hear her story and just understand how this can happen a little better.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Well, it's an incredible podcast and I don't wanna spoil everything or I feel like I'd have more questions.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know we have to leave it up to mystery, but he is in.

[Lola Blanc]

Prison right now, right? Yes, yes, Victor is in prison. They got him. And Lindsay was an instrumental part of that.

[Erica Lance]

Absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

What are some takeaways for both of you after doing this season then? Maybe also how it connects to the other stories that you've explored in previous seasons.

[Erica Lance]

One thing that strikes me is how often these same themes come up again and again. And that's, I think, what your show shows. Like so many people have these similar stories and same with us, even though here we're talking about this full blown cult, but we also see it in the ballet world in different ways. How people are using these same tools of control things, even things we didn't get in. Well, maybe we touched on a little bit, but even things like roles of women enforcing certain gender roles or controlling body and wanting thinness and how that can be connected to cults and just seeing again and again these same patterns is really fascinating to me. And I think it helps me then recognize in other communities that aren't cultivating cults yet when something bad is going on. Like, I think it's helpful to understand these red flags and it doesn't have to be a full blown cult whose leader is in prison for us to see those red flags and like try to stop something earlier in the process. So I don't know, I. I think it's Just been so mind blowing for me over the past five years, making this podcast, how often we hear things.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Repeated that.

[Erica Lance]

I expected it a little bit, but just not to the extent that we have seen it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Am I allowed to ask you two a question?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Always.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

What Erika just touched on, I think is the crux of my endless fascination with this issue of groups pushing people to do things that in maybe a typical setting or something, they would never do. But yet also then we see some of these power dynamics play out in real life. I'm just curious what you two see as what a cult is or, you know, where does that edge end or what? Because, yeah, I think part of Erica's point is that we see similar themes just even in what people would consider normal, healthy communities.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I mean, we go so far as to be like a narcissistic relationship. Our abusive relationship is culty. Like, there's so many different things that can be dynamically like a cult. And also it's a slippery slope where people are like, that's a narcissist or that's a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, we can overuse the words as well and that they lose meaning. This question. I feel like we need to just have our own list of what we've seen over the years. But, you know, there's different frameworks, of course. There's Steve Hasson's bite model, former guest of ours, cult expert. It stands for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. He presents it in the influence continuum because these things can exist in varying degrees. But, you know, of course, the more extreme they are, the more likely it is to be a cult. And there are other frameworks as well. But for me, I like being the single source of truth and no other sources being valid in any way is one of the biggest red flags. Obviously, controlling behavior, isolating people from outside community, which again, comes back to the single source of truth and really just. Yeah, the levels of control, because, like, different variations of that can happen. But if it's not controlling your life, then I don't think it necessarily matters that much. But when it is making you make decisions that you wouldn't make, and disconnecting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You from your gut, from yourself, and.

[Lola Blanc]

From your family, and from your values. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And with red flags, where there's smoke, there's fire. You know, like, that sometimes helps me get through to maybe people and the group that I grew up in of like, hey, listen, if there's like this much chatter, maybe it's not exactly the worst conclusion of the rumor mill, but, like, it's worth looking into.

[Lola Blanc]

It's worth looking at. And if you feel like you are forbidden from looking at it.

[Erica Lance]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

And having doubt is off the table or having conversations about it is off the table. I mean, that's a major sign of an abusive dynamic, I would say.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Erica Lance]

So true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that's our take. We definitely need to make a.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, how do we not have an acronym? Trust me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me. Yeah, we'll do that today.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

T R U S T. For sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, we do think of cults as this really extreme thing that happens in these really extreme circumstances. But then once you start applying some of those principles more broadly, it's happening everywhere in so many different forms. And, yeah, I think what you guys are doing is so important. Educating people and helping them see the parallels. You know, so many people have emerged from their indoctrination simply from hearing someone else's story that isn't attacking their exact belief system or group or leader, but it just is helping them to, like, see the connection. Yeah. I mean, that's just. It helps so many people. So I'm glad you guys are doing your show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Where do people find it? Where do they find you?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. It's called the Turning River Road. And the Turning has two other seasons as well, but this is the third season, so the Turning.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Lola Blanc]

And go listen. And I cried while listening to it in several episodes, so be prepared. Yep.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. It's truly great. So thank y' all for doing it and for coming on and sharing it with us.

[Erica Lance]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is such a crazy story. I am so grateful they came on and did all that work to expose us.

[Lola Blanc]

I know. It's a great podcast. Everybody go listen to it. Megan, I. You know, I was gonna ask you if you would join this one, but I kind of think the answer is no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, absolutely not. And I'm so sorry for anybody that had to go through that. That is not my kind of cult. But I do wanna tell you guys about their first season of the Turning that they did.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. The Mother Teresa season. Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So when we originally were doing this, I thought that that was the season. That was the newest season. So I listened to it, the whole.

[Lola Blanc]

Thing, and I did not. So can you tell me? Because I listened to the correct season.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I also listened to the correct season.

[Lola Blanc]

No, Megan just did extra listening.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just did extra listening, which I'm glad I did, because, like, I don't know how to say this. But it kind of sounds like Mother Teresa was a bitch.

[Lola Blanc]

Why?

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're gonna have to listen. But it's like she was really into, like self flagellation. I think I did mention this somewhere in the episode. This episode. Like, she didn't want people touching each other. Like, don't even hold the baby for too long. Because she just didn't want any human emotions to form between.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, no. Because you only should be connected to God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like kind of enough.

[Lola Blanc]

And.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And.

[Lola Blanc]

And her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And her a little bit. And she was like very self promoting.

[Erica Lance]

Oh, no.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, listen, I'm sure Mother Teresa is very important to a lot of people. And like, I'm not gonna die on this hill. I don't. I. I didn't know her. Don't know her at all.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. That I. That I knew Megan just did not know Mother Teresa.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We didn't hang out.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I always just kind of took it at face value that she was.

[Lola Blanc]

Really the best person. Yeah. Like, I. Yeah. What do you.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

What am I?

[Lola Blanc]

Mother Teresa? Like, she's used as this, like, sort of elevated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So to even consider the fact that she might not be was news to me. That's all I'm saying.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, it's disappointing, but it's not surprising because anyone we've ever held up at that kind of godlike status is always just a human person who sure. Probably got the reputation that they got on some level because they wanted to create that reputation. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, listen to all the seasons of the Turning and let me know what you think about the first one. Obviously let us know what you think about the third one too, because Lindsay's story is beyond compelling. But I just thought I'd throw it out there that.

[Lola Blanc]

That Mother Teresa's a bitch.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Allegedly. And if that offends you, like, I. Please don't rate us. One star.

[Lola Blanc]

No, please just don't rate us. Then just leave. Just go away.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I don't mean it.

[Lola Blanc]

Five stars only.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm just making an observation.

[Lola Blanc]

So season one of their show, like, who are the people that it's focused on?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like the people that were in her Covenant.

[Lola Blanc]

Convent.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Convent.

[Lola Blanc]

Her coven. But then coven became Covenant. Oh, shit. She was a witch.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It's like the opposite of the Sound of Music's Nunnery.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know the reference. I haven't seen that movie in so long.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know anything. We're talking.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's no singing. There's no. There's no hills. There's no. Alive. There's just hitting yourself with like whips and.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, that is a common. Yeah, that is not a big Catholic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And again, like I don't. No offense.

[Lola Blanc]

And now none will be taken because you said that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I'm just throwing it out there.

[Lola Blanc]

All right, well, great.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

We did it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We did it. Thank you so much for listening. Please come listen again next week. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Amazon, Instagram, USMePodcast or on TikTok USMeCult podcast got.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Let's be real life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Neat flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lola Blanc]

Every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Help you knock out the rest of it.

[Lola Blanc]

Belveda Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel.

[Lola Blanc]

Best part? They both taste great so make the.

[Erica Lance]

Most out of your morning with a bite of Velveeta.

[Lola Blanc]

Pick up a pack of Velveeta at your local store today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Fox one is now live.

[Lola Blanc]

It's the new way to stream all your Fox favorites all in one place. That means NFL Sundays and college football games, breaking news with the Fox voices you trust and your favorite show streamed as they happen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So nothing gets spoiled.

[Lola Blanc]

With Fox one. You get it all live. Edge of your seat plays, jaw dropping moments and that feeling like you're right there in the action. Start your seven day trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one we live for live streaming now.