Jasper Hoffman, Part 2 - Undercover Therapy, Leaving the Mennonites, and the Aftermath

Summary

Trust Me Podcast: Jasper Hoffman, Part 2 — Undercover Therapy, Leaving the Mennonites, and the Aftermath

Episode Date: July 15, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster, and former Mennonite

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Episode Overview

This deeply personal and powerful episode continues the story of Jasper Hoffman, exploring her life inside a strict Mennonite community and her eventual journey out. The hosts delve into the pressures of being the “perfect woman” in Mennonite culture, the trauma and isolation associated with questioning group norms, Jasper’s secret path to therapy, her withdrawal from the Mennonites, and her subsequent efforts to support others through her platform, Plain People’s Podcast. The conversation highlights the lasting impact of high-control religious groups on mental health and identity, and the persistent challenges that come with leaving.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Ideal Mennonite Woman (12:50 – 15:00)

• Physical and Behavioral Perfection
  • "Perfect, perfect, perfect hair. Everything is beautifully just enough of a swoop. Not a single hair out of place. It is the Stepford wife." — Jasper (12:54)
  • Clothing rules down to specifics: dress fabric print size must fit inside a quarter; pastel colors; moderate ruffles.
  • Shoes had to be “Hush Puppies, not sas” and “perfect Mennonite handwriting.”
  • “I had the white head covering... ended up buying a custom made black bonnet... my way of trying to be even more in compliance.” — Jasper (13:40)
  • Strictness even about hair—Jasper was told her hair was “a little bit too swoopy”.
• Voice and Demeanor
  • “It is a very baby voice... you have a Pennsylvania Dutch accent... everything sing-songy.” — Jasper (15:13)
  • Manners to be “svelte, graceful, quiet, but personable and warm.”

Pressures, Isolation, and the "Council Meeting" (16:01 – 21:29)

• Membership & Baptism
  • Baptism is closely tied to membership; until then, restrictions (no communion, “holy kiss,” etc.).
  • Entry involves a "council meeting," where the bishop and male church members raise anonymous concerns about applicants.
  • "At the very end of council meeting, the bishop will come up and... share what the concerns are. They won’t say who it is." — Jasper (17:20)
• Jasper’s “Ungovernability”
  • Church questioned her compliance, partly due to lacking control over her, even cited her owning a horse as an infraction (20:25).
  • “I was ungovernable... even though I was trying so hard.” — Jasper (20:35)
  • Gained membership (via baptism) by becoming “performance driven,” but suffered significant psychological impacts.

Mental Health Decline and Secret Therapy (25:34 – 32:18)

• Heightened Isolation
  • Close friendships severed: “They sent my best friend away in the middle of the night... I didn’t see her for 21 years.” — Jasper (25:39)
  • Increasing depression and OCD; Jasper began self-harming.
• Underground (Secret) Therapy
  • Her mother broke church rules to seek outside mental health care, a major risk for their family.
  • "We went to a county over, so nobody would see that I was going to a therapist... he saved my life." — Jasper (25:39, 27:56)
  • Therapist, Roger, offered nonjudgmental support: “I’m not here to make you stay in the church and I’m not here to make you leave. I’m here for you.” — Jasper (27:59)
  • Therapy focused on “worthiness without performance,” especially regarding body image and eating disorders.
  • Jasper had to mask her healing: “I had to pretend that I wasn’t growing.” (31:20)

Leaving the Church (32:54 – 36:32)

• Gradual Growth, Not Sudden Exit
  • “There was no aha moment. It was just this gradual self-awareness and self-confidence. I finally was like, I can’t keep doing this.” — Jasper (32:54)
  • Realized that all future options were closed for her: not permitted to marry or teach due to her “reputation” (33:22).
  • With her therapist’s help, wrote a respectful withdrawal letter: “Your anticipated cooperation is deeply appreciated.” (35:51)
• Harassment After Leaving
  • Intense attempts to draw her back: letters, late-night visits, threats. "He [the bishop] told my mom that he would make an example out of my family, that it was not easy to leave the church." — Jasper (38:09)
  • “It’s very common practice... you can actually call the police... this is stalking, harassment,” but very few realize their legal rights. (37:26, 38:05)

Difficulties Post-Exit and New Beginnings (39:15 – 41:11)

• Sense of Not Belonging
  • Tried returning to the church, but “couldn’t belong anywhere."
  • Family was divided; her mother left, her father remained. Still, she “wasn’t kicked out.”
• Focus on Education
  • Pursued college (Bachelor's in Equine Science) as a lifeline: “Education is a gateway, a privilege... it gives you access to who you want to become.” — Jasper (41:19)
• Overcoming Trauma and “Untangling” Life
  • The years following exit were tumultuous: “In a five-year span, I left a cult, lost a close grandparent, went to college, dropped out, got married, had a child, got divorced, and went back to school. With not any support or therapy.” (40:35)

Advocacy and The Plain People’s Podcast (41:19 – 52:51)

• Purpose and Growth
  • Podcast began to “show what it was like to leave high control, high demand religion.” (41:19)
  • Aimed to support education for women leaving Anabaptist groups.
  • Quickly uncovered a landscape of “prolific” abuse and trafficking in plain communities.
  • “All my guests were made to feel [like the problem]... there was a much bigger issue.” (43:37)
• Language Matters
  • Crucial to name abuse directly (“That’s labor trafficking. That’s child labor.”).
  • Mennonite/Amish communities often use euphemisms (“fell into sin”) which mask the severity of abuse.
• Challenging Cultural Myths
  • “When you look at cults, Amish and Mennonites are the most romanticized... but there is organized crime.” — Jasper (48:22)
  • Outside society prefers “quilts and fresh butter” over acknowledging systemic abuse (48:48).
• Change from Within and Support Structures
  • Underground women’s meetings, resources for current community members, and direct support for those both leaving and staying.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Performance Trap:
  “It was so performance driven... I never had the space to recover from the pressure of that.” — Jasper (21:29)

• On Secret Support:
  "My mom said, absolutely not. We're not sending our daughter away. And so that created even more controversy..." — Jasper (21:29)

• The Power of the Right Support:
  "[Therapist Roger]: ‘I am not here to make you stay in the church and I'm not here to make you leave. I'm here for you. Whatever that decision is, I will walk with you.’" — Jasper (27:59)

• On Community Harassment:
  “When you leave the church, they’ll come to your house, write letters... it’s major harassment.” — Jasper (35:10)
  “Our bishop... sat at our kitchen table and he was furious and told my mom that he would make an example out of my family, that it was not easy to leave the church.“ — Jasper (38:09)

• On Masking Growth:
  “So, yeah, I totally masked your self growth—a lot of my growth.” — Jasper (32:18)

• On Language and Abuse:
  “When I’m interviewing people and they say [‘fell into sin’], it’s like code-switching. I’ll be like, that’s actually called this.” — Jasper (45:34)

• On Cultural Myths:
  "Kool Aid didn't do a collab with Jim Jones... You're not buying Jehovah Witness furniture... but people still... hold on to the romanticized view of the Amish and Mennonites." — Jasper (48:12)

• On Advocacy and Change:
  "I've seen it shift... There's a lot more people that are aware of what's actually really happening." — Jasper (52:00)

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Key Timestamps

• 12:50 – The Mennonite “perfect woman” ideal
• 16:01 – Council meeting, membership, and baptism process
• 21:29 – The emotional toll of pressures and failure to “fit”
• 25:34 – Closest friends sent away; Hamburg syndrome of isolation
• 27:56 – Secret therapy and the pivotal role of her therapist Roger
• 32:54 – Gradual realization leading to Jasper’s departure
• 35:10 – Writing the withdrawal letter and tactics of harassment
• 38:09 – Bishop’s intimidation tactic at home
• 41:19 – Launching The Plain People’s Podcast
• 45:34 – Naming abuse: bridging community codes and real-world terminology
• 48:12 – Debunking the "romanticized" image of plain communities
• 52:00 – Emerging shifts in public perception and internal advocacy

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The Plain People’s Podcast & Next Steps

• Jasper’s Work:
  The podcast offers a rare look inside Amish and Mennonite communities, sharing diverse experiences from those who've left, addressing abuse and supporting the newly independent.
• Ongoing Advocacy:
  Through roundtables, underground meetings, and direct support, Jasper works to equip women (and men) with resources, education, and legal awareness—whether leaving or seeking change from within.

Find the Podcast:

• All major platforms (except SoundCloud)
• plainpeoplespodcast.com
• Substack: The Plain People’s Project
• Instagram: @plainpeoplespodcast

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Final Reflections

Jasper’s story is one of resilience and transformation in the face of overwhelming conformity, control, and trauma. The episode illuminates the hidden costs of “plain” life for those who question, and celebrates the power of underground support, education, and speaking truthfully—no matter how much it unsettles mythologies or threatens the status quo.

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Further Listening:
For more on cults, extreme belief, and survivor stories, listen to Trust Me on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Jasper Hoffman]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Jasper Hoffman]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults and extreme belief and manipulation from two not so plain people who've actually experienced it.

[Jasper Hoffman]

I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

This week we're back with Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster and former Mennonite in Part two. Today she's going to talk to us about what the perfect woman looked like in Mennonite culture, how concerns were raised about Jasper for not being compliant enough and how over time she became depressed and developed an eating disorder in response to the pressures of the group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She'll share how her mom secretly found her a therapist on the outside, even though it was against the rules. And how that therapist helped her write a letter to withdraw her Mennonite membership, which led to the harassment of her family. We'll talk about how she tried to go back after she left, but realized she really didn't belong, and why she started the Plain People's podcast.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan, before we get back into it with Jasper learning all about plain People, can you tell me what your cultiest thing is this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, my cultiest thing this week is I'm looking into this guy. His name is Nikita Tuccolo. I'm sure I'm saying that a bit off, but he is being held right now on a $5 million bond, which stood out to me because that's quite high. And he had a hype house. I'm going to call it a hype house, but a content house, maybe that's more reasonable. And only fans house, you know, And I've been so curious about how all of these houses are going to shake out when all is said and done. Because you have a bunch of people living together creating content. I'm sure it can be done in a healthy way, but, like, a lot of times I'm like, that sounds like a cult. Would you agree?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, that sounds like everywhere you've ever lived, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You mean me personally? Yeah, I'm not living at one right now, and I'm so sad. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess I do love living in houses with a bunch of people, but we're not creating content.

[Lola Blanc]

But you were creating music and, like, videos.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, but this in particular was a little bit more intense because he was basically isolating women and having them create sex content and then stealing all of their money and threatening to kill them if they didn't comply to his very course of rules. Also, this man is 22 years old.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. So just a mini little cult leader in the making, really high bail, which makes me think a lot of stuff is going to start coming to light. People have been drawing parallels to the Playboy Mansion, but on steroids. Like, One woman made $230,000 one year, and it was all withheld from her. Wow. Yeah, it went under something like Nova Talent Management, so it sounded very real and, you know, would get people in. Anyway, I love, as you said, living in houses with a bunch of people who love creating things. I don't make content per se, but, you know, it can go wrong. And Often does.

[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

Where no one's, like, telling them what to do. So when these guys come in and they take over and then they, you know, essentially start trafficking women for onlyfans, it's like. No, that's the whole opposite of the point of onlyfans.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they're making, like, their own bots of women that are just AI created. And, you know, it's such.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whenever a bunch of money is involved, you're gonna find people being predatory and trying to control people. So curious to see how this shakes out. He's been speaking in Russian over the phone, trying to get people to move all the money. And there was a kind of funny quote where one of the police agents was like, we have people here who speak Russian. And it's just like, kind of funny. Um, he was like, this is a secret language that I can use. But they had like, a Russian guy on the. The police force.

[Lola Blanc]

Hilarious.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Anyway, I was reading a lot about it, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of it kind of involves spirituality in a weird way.

[Lola Blanc]

Or like, I mean, there is something wild and absolutely plausible at the same time about the idea of like, an onlyfans coercive trafficker who is also like, it's under the guise of spirituality. Like, I'm sure that's happening as we speak.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And by spirituality, I just mean almost like prosperity gospel.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And prying on people's wants and needs and taking it to the limit. So something to keep your eye on. And I'm curious to see how this will keep developing. Yeah. Lola, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

It's. It's very silly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, good.

[Lola Blanc]

It's an article a little overblown.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

The article is called the most disturbing cult like towns in America you should avoid. Oh, by Crystal Rowe. And this is on Yahoo.com.

[Megan Elizabeth]

how'd you end up there?

[Lola Blanc]

Sometimes you Google cult, and most of these. I think this is like, from a Reddit thread. Like, oh, yeah, this. This is just an article repeating people's posts on a Reddit thread. So it's not hard hitting journalism here, but it is a List of basically, like everywhere anyone has ever felt weird. So. So there's like the actual cult connected town. So there's Clearwater, Florida, which is like the Scientology hub. There's Moscow, Idaho, where there's a controversial church whose leader has openly talked about wanting to create a theocracy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

They're called Christ Church. And yeah, it's just like a super Christian nationalist thing with really crazy beliefs. Obviously Colorado City is on the list. My mom's town, island pond, Vermont, where 12 tribes are. And there's like the yellow deli restaurants there. And then there's a bunch that are like, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of neo Nazis in this town and they were scary. And then there's a bunch that are like, for some reason, there are like eight different people sharing a really similar story in different places in rural America where they walk into a diner and then nobody speaks and everybody just stares at them silently the entire time. Which is not a cult thing. I think that's just a country thing. Like, why are these outsiders in my. You know, when people never come through here? I think it's just that. But there's so many people who shared that, like, exact story. It's confusing,

[Megan Elizabeth]

I guess. I guess small towns are kind of culty.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, totally. They're insulated communities. Often there's like weird hierarchies going on with, you know, who's at the top of the ladder that week or whatever. Yeah. So one of them was in Powers, Oregon. The person wrote, stopped in the diner for coffee once on a drive through. I shit you not, like straight out of a movie. The other patrons just turned and quietly stared, not touching their plates until we left. I don't know why so many people are having this experience, but. Oh, same thing in northern Minnesota. Same thing in Dodgeville, Wisconsin, but it was at a bowling alley. I am from a rural town in Michigan, and also my mom lives in one of these towns that before she ever lived there, like, I went and visited because we'd heard all these weird things about these people who followed you. But then of course, now that we know more about these people in this town, they're just like, mostly lovely. And anyway, it's interesting what we project onto. The mystery of, like, a small town that we don't know about.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, Jasper has a lot to say about communities that are off the grid. Shall I speak to her?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

What does the perfect Mennonite woman look like?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Perfect, perfect perfect hair. Everything is like beautifully just enough of a swoop. Not a single hair out of place. It is the Stepford wife. Your your dress is immaculate for us, our print size had to be smaller than a quarter, so the flower had to be, like, fit inside the quarter. It was always, like, a pastel color, a little bit of ruffle, but not too much ruffle. She was very svelte and graceful, and her mannerisms were small. And she was very quiet, but yet personable and warm. She had the perfect Guatemalan sweater, and her shoes were like Hush Puppies, not sass. And she had perfect Mennonite handwriting, and she would write little notes.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you have the bonnet?

[Jasper Hoffman]

I had the white head covering. Yeah. And then I ended up buying, like, I had a custom made black bonnet. Drove to Pennsylvania to have one made for me. I still have that, too. Wow. But that was my way of trying to be even more in compliance with the church because it was like, okay, well, if I have a bonnet, then they can't say that I'm trying to be too liberal. They had an issue with my. I have two cowlicks, and so my hair was a little bit too swoopy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

These people are.

[Jasper Hoffman]

The swoop is the point in your guys's culture. Yes. But it's like, in us, it's like, it can't look like you're swooping.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lola Blanc]

As in, like, the. The bump at the top. Is that the swoop?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

In question.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Which is similar to the flds, but it's going to be smaller because the FLDS bump would be too high.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Way too high. I call it the fundy swoop. But it's funny. I'm friends with a lot of, like, FLDS gals, and I found out the recipe that they use to. To, like, put their hair in place.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What is it?

[Jasper Hoffman]

It's like cornstarch with honey and all of this. And they use it. And like, one of my girlfriends recently, she's like, the. The flies would swarm around the hair.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jasper Hoffman]

So we used Aquanet, like, so we didn't do that.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Smaller swoop. No honey required.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I noticed that a lot of these different groups have a different voice. Was the woman's voice supposed to be, like, kind of Michelle Duggery, where it's kind of a baby?

[Jasper Hoffman]

It is a very baby voice. Yes. And. Oh, I see. Like, because there's also, like, this. You have a Pennsylvania Dutch accent. So they'll say things and they end things with a question. So if they say goodbye, it's goodbye. Like, it's the sing song.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like you're doing ASMR right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's good.

[Lola Blanc]

Making my Brain feel weird.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's a question. Goodbye.

[Jasper Hoffman]

There's a little bit of it. I say this all the time. Is it all? Is it all gone? They'll just drop a word. So is it all? Is very common.

[Lola Blanc]

Is it all.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How interesting.

[Jasper Hoffman]

But everything sings songy. Is it all. So they'll raise the note at the very end.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, good to know.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting. What was it that led you to actually start to consider that maybe this wasn't the lifestyle for you around this

[Jasper Hoffman]

time, after I was not invited back to school, there were ongoing concerns about me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Jasper Hoffman]

And so I'm up for baptism, which they link membership with baptism. While they would consider you a Christian and you're wearing a head covering at the time, you can't greet each other with a holy kiss. You can't partake in communion or feet washing until you're baptized into the church. So they will have what's called council meeting a month beforehand where the bishop will come into town and. And it's a regular church service. But then at the end of that, there's two rooms up front of the sanctuary. You could say the ministry will be in there and the bishop. And there will be small sections of people. It's segregated seating. I should say this. So they'll start with the men. They'll. They'll have the men go in, and it's normally two or three rows at a time. And so you will go around and answer the questions of the bishop. And then that's when you can raise any concern about anybody that is coming into the church or in the church in general. If there's a concern about an applicant, AKA me, coming in, they'll note that. And then at the very end of council meeting, the bishop will come up and then he will share what the concerns are. They won't say who it is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, it's like.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, obvious.

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Yeah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah. It's like obvi. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

But you had to apply even though you'd been a member. Like, can you explain what that is?

[Jasper Hoffman]

So you can stand up during revival service to become a Christian, they'll take you down to the basement. Afterwards, they will pray with you, and at that point, you will then begin your instruction class with the intention of joining the church. So you will look Mennonite, but you won't be Mennonite.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Until you go through instruction class and then are baptized into the church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

So even though you'd been in since you were 9 years old, you were not technically a member.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Which. That is a big part of the Anabaptist religion is that they don't believe in infant baptism. So that's where they separated from the Lutheran Church during the Great Reformation was because they believed. That's why they're called the anti Baptists, the Anabaptists. So, yeah, depending on the age of and the type of church, it's more common in the Amish churches to join later on as a teen. But the Mennonites, it's normally like, traditionally kind of like early teen.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Jasper Hoffman]

But yeah, so you can be raised in the church, but then until you're a church member, you don't have as much expectation placed on you, I'd say so when you're in instruction class, that's when you're proving that you are worthy of church membership and baptism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. So the two by two is very similar how I grew up. You had to stand up in a packed room to, like, profess your allegiance to this group in Christianity in Christ. And then when you were older, you had to choose to be baptized because the most evil thing in the world was baptizing a baby. That's like such a horrible thing to do for them. And my sister, I didn't get baptized because I. I don't know, I just was like, no. Oh, I know. Lola's like, we gotta get you baptized. Oh, I got baptized at your party.

[Lola Blanc]

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[Lola Blanc]

I forgot.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. I'm baptized. I'm baptized. Um, okay, so. But. But my sister, who's younger than me, did get baptized. We would do it on, like, farm lakes at convention, and my sister walked into the lake and tripped and fell into the water and came up and she goes, I baptized myself. And everyone was like, dead. That was so bad.

[Jasper Hoffman]

One of my really. One of my really great friends, he grew up pretty conservative Mennonite, but he was never baptized. So recently he was baptized by one of his friends as she was dressed like Lady Gaga and in Vegas.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Similar. Amazing. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of what happened at Lola's party.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, Megan got baptized in the pool at my album release party.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was great.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Amazing.

[Lola Blanc]

I forgot about that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Yeah. So you're an applicant, and they're like, an applicant who shall not be named, but we all know exactly who it is is not worthy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Passive aggressive preaching.

[Jasper Hoffman]

It's awful.

[Lola Blanc]

What were the reasons that they were giving?

[Jasper Hoffman]

I think it's the concern that I had a horse and that you had a horse. I know.

[Lola Blanc]

How unrighteous of you.

[Jasper Hoffman]

I was uncontrollable. They couldn't control me. I mean, I could give you a list of the reasons, but ultimately, probably because they knew that I would become who I am today of exposing them for the same things. I was ungovernable. Even though I was trying so hard, they just couldn't nail me down. And, I mean, I ultimately was baptized the following month. So it was a great fu to them, where I was like, see, I did it. It was so performance driven. But I had to strip myself into just focusing on this goal, which was becoming a member of the church. And it didn't matter what it costs. I just had to do it and I did it. And then what it psychologically did was just. I never had the space to recover from. From the pressure of that. And then. Then it was like, more additional pressure because now I'm in. Now I gotta keep it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

And it's like, oh, that's so much on a teenager. I mean, so much on anybody. But, like, as a teenager, it was extremely brutal. I mean, obviously I was, like, depressed, but it just became worse because they started isolating me. So already I've been pulled out of school, so there's something wrong with me. And I've made it into the church. But at that point, they started talking about trying to send me to a facility, one of their wellness mental health places, to help me become more compliant and to help me out. And my dad was all for it, because at this point, like, my family is fighting constantly about me. There's a. I'm a huge source of contention in the family. And my mom said, absolutely not. We're not sending our daughter away. And so that created even more controversy because now my dad can't get any of us in order. So then it makes him look like a bad leader in the church. And they've just joined in. So it's like the pressure that the church puts on men to keep their women submissive and the headship order, I look at that and I'm like, that would make anybody break, you know, and his job is connected to his membership. Right, right. I get it now as an adult, where my dad was supporting all of us. Now I have two other siblings, so there's three of us, plus my mom. Everybody needs to stay in order so dad can keep his job. And yet I was constantly messing up.

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[Jasper Hoffman]

So they sent everybody away that I was really close to, that I was writing letters to.

[Arm and Hammer Announcer]

They.

[Jasper Hoffman]

They sent my best friend away in the middle of the night. They came and took her at 3 in and I was never allowed to talk to her again.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Until probably like 10 years. I didn't see her for 21 years. Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

And is it like a troubled teen type of thing?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. How does it relate to the kind of the troubled teen industry?

[Jasper Hoffman]

What's the it's really on brand? It just looks prettier. You know, the facade, the marketing and the branding is there, but it's it's very similar. So whether they put you in a facility or they take you to somebody else's house, or, like in her instance, she was taken to the bishop's house. And so she moved up a class or five in a way, because there is such a caste system. So suddenly she's been yanked out of her family and put into. It's like President Snow's place, you know,

[Megan Elizabeth]

it's like the Royal family.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, in some ways, really good for her, but it was because of our friendship. So I'm losing people one by one. And so this isolation was really driving my mental health into plummeting. And you can see it in photos. You can watch me every year just lose more and more spark in my eye. So by the time I'm this age, like, 16, like, I was cutting and I was. I was pulling my hair out, and I was so depressed. And then when you're depressed, you're trying to control your. You know, for me, I was trying to control everything. So I become super OCD because there's so much. It's performance driven. And I'm like, maybe if I can be the perfect Mennonite girl, then they'll like me and I'll be accepted. So at that point, my mom, I think, realized that I was really not doing well. And so she made a choice to go outside of the church standard and seek counseling for me, which is not allowed any sort of mental health support outside of the community. But she knew that I was just. She was going to lose me in one capacity or another. So we went to a county over, so nobody would see that I was going to a therapist. And we'd have to, like, drop me off, you know, a couple parking lots over, and I'd walk in real quick. So I started going to a counselor, and he saved my life completely because it was, like, the only person that saw me as me and not a performance or what I needed to be.

[Lola Blanc]

And because he has nothing to do with the church.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Nothing. And he was so great at, like, how he phrased this, because, you know, I'm so scared to be in there. And it's a man on top of it all. So here, like, these are two things that are not allowed to be happening. And he. At the very end of our first intake session, I'll never forget where he made me. Like, I laughed or something. And he said, oh. He's like, there it is. Like, I can get you to smile, you know, it's in there. Like, you're. We're going to be okay. So. And that tells you, like, if you know my personality, I'm very giggly all the time. So like it was so bad that I just could not even connect with any sort of joy. So he recognized that. And then the next time when it was just the two of us, he told me, he said, I am not here to make you stay in the church and I'm not here to make you leave. I'm here for you. And whatever that decision is, I will walk with you whatever you decide. From a therapist standpoint, good for him, because that's what exactly I needed to hear. I needed to hear that I was not going to be forced to leave the church because that was not my goal at all. He gave me that relief straight out the gate, which then immediately made me feel so trusting of him. And he was great. He was just phenomenal and taught me so much about learning to love myself for me and things that were not ever taught for me since I was living in this performance based culture.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I'm curious, like how. Because that totally makes sense. That would make your guard come down so then you can actually just like be real with him. How did he encourage you to think for yourself? And how did that kind of go against what you'd been taught about what you were supposed to think?

[Jasper Hoffman]

A lot of my, A lot of my obsession was on body image at the time because I was in a culture that's also uses not only the female body. The female body is responsible for everything. Right. It's responsible for men's sin. And it's also like if the smaller you can make yourself, the quieter, the more, you know, elegant that you can become, you have a better chance of marrying somebody. And it was everything that I was not. So I was obsessed with being as skinny as possible.

[Lola Blanc]

I was.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Had a lot of eating disorders and I was just trying to control that. And so a lot of our focus was really on worthiness, that I was worthy without looking a certain way or performance. And that was so different than anybody else that was in my life. I think that that's where he started. He started at the point where I could identify with what it was. But truly like that life lesson, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's like your body image or, or anything. It all is the same thing, which is confidence and telling me that I was right, you know, whenever and really just confirming and reaffirming what my intuition was when nobody else was like that. So a lot of our focus, though, was just on the performance side of things. But he did tell me, I'll never forget, because he had asked me what my Social Security number was and I didn't know it. And he said, oh, when you go to college, you'll know it. So it was like these little, little things that were like. And I think about him every time I write my Social Security number out. I'm like, he's right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Number one, props to your mom for breaking rank on that and taking you. That's really cool. Number two, you go to therapy, secret therapy. You come back. Do you have to pretend that you're not growing?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yes. I'll never forget. I was really struggling, but I was starting to, like, feel better because I was learning about positive thinking. And so it was helping me, like, reframe things. And so all of a sudden I didn't feel so bad. And I'll never forget my school teacher, he was talking to me and he said something. He was wanting to know how I was doing or whatever. And so I was like, oh, I'm. I started saying that I was better. And he goes, well, you know, we don't believe in the power of positive thinking.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh.

[Jasper Hoffman]

But it was in a way that it was like, I didn't say anything, but I was like, I think your phone shit, like, because it's working. This is the best I have felt ever. And so I just had to pretend that he was right and just be like, oh, okay, you know, and. But I'll never forget that. So, yeah, I totally masked, like yourself, growth. A lot of my growth. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just trying to respond like your old self.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. So that was a gradual progression and probably. Well, not probably. That's totally why they don't allow you to have outside support mental health. Because once you begin to have some sort of self worth and to be allowed to question things and work through things and make your own decision, you'll leave, most likely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And once you connect with somebody who's not in it and they're not pressuring you and you're just human to human, like, that's also very powerful. Very powerful.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Huge. So for me, there was no aha moment. It was just this gradual self awareness and self confidence where I finally was like, I can't keep doing this. And I also recognized that there was no way that they were going to let me marry who I wanted to marry and I had no true future. Because for them, if you are over the age of 21 and not in a relationship or married, you're an old Maid.

[Lola Blanc]

My gosh.

[Jasper Hoffman]

And how do you support yourself moving forward is that you would typically become a schoolteacher. But if they're not going to let you marry somebody that is a good Mennonite man because you are a risk, they're definitely not going to let you teach their children. So I really actually looked at going to a less conservative Mennonite church. I was looking for a step down program and there wasn't one where we lived unless I moved to Pennsylvania. And that was a huge risk too, because at this point I'm coming with this like, tainted reputation of being this like, you know, whore.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yeah. They've already wrote letters about you.

[Jasper Hoffman]

They have, they do. Like, you know, and it was very well known that I was a problem. And because I wasn't allowed to interact with my peers like it was. If we went to a visiting church, like, everybody was told they couldn't interact with me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah. So the friends that I still, I still have, them like, that went outside the box, like took a big risk socially and to be in trouble by associating with me. So for me, it was just this realization that it was like, once you see something, you can't unsee it. And there was just. I had developed such growth. I mean, I still like, had a long ways to go, but I had enough to be like, I can't keep myself small like this. It's just unattainable without me wanting to die. And I don't want to feel like I want to die every day.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

So that was it. There wasn't like, I didn't have this one thing that made me leave that I can remember anyway. I mean, that's the thing. Like repressed memories are still there around this time period because I think it was just so. But it's helpful to have my parents and, you know, my mom especially remind me of things that were happening at that time, just to kind of put the puzzle pieces of trauma together.

[Lola Blanc]

And so when you turn 18, what, what happens? Where do you go?

[Jasper Hoffman]

I was able to stay at my parents house. I left. I wrote a letter to withdraw my membership with my therapist because they do a lot of intimidation practices. When you leave the church, they will come to your house, they will write letters, they will make phone calls. It's like this major harassment.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Very Scientology.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah. And I didn't want that. And so in the letter I wrote that I had my parents blessing and support to withdraw my membership and that I did not want anybody to come to my house to try to talk to me. And so Roger taught me this and we signed it this way that it was. Your anticipated cooperation is deeply appreciated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Roger.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Roger. My third therapist killed it with that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We love you, Roger. That's so good.

[Jasper Hoffman]

And you know, I, I ran into him two years ago. He walked in into my parents restaurant and I got my. This is my therapist and I got to thank him.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, amazing.

[Jasper Hoffman]

All of the work that he did with me as a teenager. And because of him I've been able to impact so many hundreds of lives because of his own work and invested in me. And it was amazing. It was his birthday, we cried, his wife cried and he's. I know it. It was great, you know, to go back and thank the people that have been there for you is a unique experience and I was able to do that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Jasper Hoffman]

So he taught me that phrase and I use it all the time. Your anticipated cooperation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The stalking and harassment is quite unchristlike. How do they reckon with that?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Well, they would say that it's as Jesus would go out to find the lost sheep. It's essentially the same thing, like, and bring it back to the fold. That's what they believe in. Right. So. And that's where like a lot of people ask what's the difference between Amish and Mennonites? And the Mennonites are a lot more mission driven. You'll see a lot more missionaries. And also they will proactively go to try to get somebody back into the fold. The Amish are not. And they do what's called the ban. So they will freeze somebody out. And that's their way of feeling like they can bring somebody back into the fold and is by psychological torture. Pick what you want. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

God. Both bad anyway.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Both very bad. But the, the harassment's awful. And I see this a lot like actively working in the communities. And this is something that I've really tried to get the survivors to understand even when they're still in the church. But they. Maybe they've stood up and, or they've reported their abuse or they're seeking help is. I tell them these are criminal actions that these men in the church and sometimes women are doing. And you can actually call the police and have charges pressed on them because this is stalking, harassment. You can get a CPO and just to watch them just like light bulb moment because nobody told me that either. But it's very common practice in the, in the communities.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What does it look like? Like they're outside your house. They're like, what do they do?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, so they'll drive by I mean, they do this when you're in the church too. They'll drive by. Our bishop, stopped in at. They'll come late at night, stopped in at like 9:30, I believe. And I think it's done on purpose because you're in your pajamas, you're not, you know, fully dressed for the day and you're caught off guard. And he sat at our kitchen table and he was furious and told my mom that he would make a example out of my family that it was not easy to leave the church. Wow. So the threats are there. I have letters. They really big on writing these like emotional guilt trip letters that, you know, there's choices and consequences and you need to think clearly and you know, you're clearly not in your right mind and that everybody is praying for you and it's the same thing. But when you get like these letters and they're from your family and these phone calls and people are driving by and stopping in and it's hard. Yeah, it's hard when you've broken free.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I was like gonna ask were you tempted to return or were you more just like, God, these fucking people won't leave me alone.

[Jasper Hoffman]

That's great question. Cause I actually tried to go back probably. I can't remember how long it was, but I know it was in like the first year that I left. I think it was like a couple months later. I decided, well, maybe I can go back.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Maybe.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Cause I couldn't do out here. This is like too much. And I couldn't find anywhere else. And so I was like, maybe I'll just like go back. And I tried and I couldn't do that either. And that's the worst feeling. You don't know where to go because you don't fit in anywhere and you don't belong and you don't. Nobody wants you. And so. But I was able to stay at my parents house. My mom had left the church three months before and my dad was still a member, so I still had a home, so I wasn't kicked out. But there was, there was a lot of turmoil in the family. It was not easy by any means.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, that sounds horrible.

[Jasper Hoffman]

I just focused on education. I was. I just found what I needed, like the next step and just really tried to be goal oriented. How Mennonite of me.

[Lola Blanc]

And, and did you go to college?

[Jasper Hoffman]

I did. I ended up having to go back. It took me forever to graduate. But I have my Bachelor's of science in equine science.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, you did?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yes. I still work in Horses.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing.

[Jasper Hoffman]

And having a science degree is hilarious. So hard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's perfect.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Oh, hard. Yeah. And in a five year span, I left a cult. I lost a very close grandparent, I went to college, I dropped out of college, got married, got pregnant, had a child, got divorced, and then went back to school. Wow. Not any support or therapy. So it was like this, like, bluster of just shit. But I did it all, like, in my late teens and early 20s, I got all that, like, just out of the way. And now I feel like the rest of my life is just trying to untangle that and learn how to live in a state of peace.

[Lola Blanc]

And you are untangling that on your podcast, which would love for you to tell people what that is.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yes. So in 2018, I decided that I feel like a podcast is the millennial white woman's version of a butterfly tattoo. Like, all of us have one. I was like, I should tramp stamp my own. So I started a podcast in 2018 called the Plain People's Podcast. And it was really just a creative endeavor to show what it was like to leave high control, high demand religion. And I was really focused on showing the need for continuing education and slash education for women that were coming out of the communities because it's so hard to leave and there's no support or resources. And I've always been very, very firm that education is a gateway, it is a privilege, it is amazing. And it's something that Americans don't realize is a lifeline for people that are leaving cults because it gives you access to who you want to become, it gives you resources, it can give you housing if you stay on campus. It's like, it is such a great landing spot. And so I really wanted to showcase why I felt like there needed to be more attention on grant writing and scholarships for women that would leave because it felt like they would leave more. And so I started the podcast kind of thinking that that was what it was going to be, is just show what it was like and why. And it segued into just a whole different direction than I ever thought that it would and grew. So my intention was always to just have roundtable discussions like this with people that had left the churches, whether they had good experiences or bad. I wanted to showcase just the spectrum and hear how their life was always curious, like, how did they survive leaving the church? And so I just started with beginner energy. And there was not another podcast out there that was talking about Amisher Mennonites at the time. So it took off like Way more than I ever thought it would, and quickly segued into immersing me in high levels of abuse that I had no idea was so prolific. So that was a really big learning curve for me at first.

[Lola Blanc]

In terms of what was going on in the communities that you didn't know about, that you were learning from these stories?

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah. The thing was, is, like, as you can tell, like, the church was so focused on me and everything that I was doing wrong that while I heard murmurings of abuse that was happening, it was always very much made to feel like I was the problem. And what I found by sharing stories is that all my guests were made to feel that way, too. And then recognizing there was a much bigger issue that was happening, which at the time, most people were just talking about sexual abuse, child sexual abuse. So I was thrust into, all of a sudden, people sharing all of these stories, not on the podcast, but writing in, saying that they could identify with something or that they had had this happen to them, and did I know anybody else that had. So it became very overwhelming very fast. And I just felt like I was just trying to get my feet underneath me. With the podcast, it started to feel overwhelming, like I'm not a therapist. I don't have the tools to be able to walk somebody through this. And these are people's lives and people's stories, and they're very vulnerable. And while I felt so grateful that they trusted me with that, I wanted to help them in the way that I could. So it's been a journey of creating pathways and resources for people and to be able to connect them in and digging out the tunnels of resources. So podcasts started with intentions of just sharing stories, and it became so much bigger, in a way.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I mean, what. What were some of the things that you were learning?

[Jasper Hoffman]

I was putting pieces together that there was trafficking going on. That was a big aha moment for me, because, like, hearing what somebody was sharing, whether that's sex trafficking or labor trafficking, and seeing it from a different angle. Because when I'm talking to other Mennonites or Anabaptists, clean people, I can use the terminology that we use. Like, they won't ever say, oh, somebody raped their child. They'll say, they fell into sin.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

So there's all these common phrases. And so when I'm interviewing people and they say that, it's like code switching. Something will kick into me, and I'll be like, wait a minute, that's actually called this. And being able to incorporate proper terminology into people's stories shifted the narrative of how people saw things. So when people were talking about the facilities and their experiences, I started recognizing. I'm like, I think this is labor trafficking. So then going and having to educate myself on that and being like, yes, this is labor trafficking. And then being willing enough to say it before it was common to say, and being ostracized for coming in with such an enforceful word. Right. Or phrase. It makes people uncomfortable when you use terminology like that. It makes people uncomfortable when you say, that's child labor.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. When you call out the truth, they don't like to hear it. And these are communities that are holding quarters up to women's dresses to make sure the flower is smaller, but minimizing these huge actual problems in language. And we're calling it this. And it's just like, the more focused a community is on controlling the smallest

[Lola Blanc]

things about women, the less they seem to care about sexual abuse in the communities.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And so it was also really hard for me because I'm still, like, reprogramming my Mennonite brain in order to be brave enough to say these things. And then I realized there was, I think, sex trafficking happening, which was called wife swapping, and being comfortable enough to even exploring that that was happening when people were like, there's no way that this is happening within the community. You're coming for them, and you're just angry and bitter because you couldn't make it in the church. And I'm like, that's not it at all. So it's been a journey of, like, uncovering what is truly organized crime and being willing to see things that there's different layers. You know, a lot of members, they don't recognize or see that that's happening and their experience isn't organized crime. But that doesn't negate the fact that it is organized crime on a different level and that there are very coercive, manipulative men that are doing things for money, but they're hiding behind the brand of the Amish and Mennonite churches and the image that people in the outside world have also revered and romanticized so much. So my battle is always not only just, like, talking frankly and exposing what is happening within to the people that are within, but also it's reframing and shifting the romantic blends that so many people hold on the Amishemenites.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Jasper Hoffman]

I always say this. I'm like, Kool Aid didn't do a collab with Jim Jones. And, you know, there's all these other cults. You're not buying Jehovah Witness furniture.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Jasper Hoffman]

But people still, like. I feel like when you look at cults, they. Amish, Your Mennonites are like the most romanticized one at all. So when you start speaking out on that, they. People in the outside world, they. They don't like that. They get really, really upset with you when you start calling it a cult or just naming the different crimes because they want to hold on to this romanticized version of the quilts. And the reason that my family joined

[Megan Elizabeth]

in, I was going to say that they want their quilts, period. They want their quilts and some fresh butter.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Like, they'll. They'll accept the fact that there's puppy mills and that there's abuse happening within animals, but they still can't. Not always, but. And I've seen it shift, but it's hard for people to still accept that, like, organized crime is happening against children and women and men within the communities as well. So that's always been a little difficult where, you know, people choose almost like, animals.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Animal rights over children's rights. It's odd.

[Lola Blanc]

I remember we interviewed the cult assassin Carol Murchison, I believe is how you say her last name. Who. She's a lawyer who specifically, like, goes after abusive high control groups. And her journey began with someone saying that there was a Buddhist group that had become abusive, and she was like, buddhists?

[Coldwater Creek / Prime Video Announcer]

No way.

[Lola Blanc]

Buddhists wouldn't do that. That goes against the idea of Buddhism. And I feel like it's a similar thing. And, of course, she then learned that the abuse really was happening, and that sort of opened her whole world. It's like, wherever there's a sanitized image of, like, purity and wholesomeness, like, no matter what, I promise you, there's a version of it somewhere where somebody's getting abused, because, unfortunately, humans be doing that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep. It's an inconvenient truth for quilts and the other things that people need to believe that is happening somewhere in the world, there's, like, pure living, and it's just like, no.

[Lola Blanc]

Which I'm sure there are communities where it's not happening.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's cute.

[Lola Blanc]

Families are having a great time.

[Jasper Hoffman]

It is. And that's the thing. Like, so in 2021, I had a. I don't know, maybe 2022, I had a group of current Amish women reach out to me from Ohio, asking for my help. They'd found my podcast. They'd listened to everything they could relate to. It and they were trying to get eyes on what they were experiencing. And, you know, I'd formed some relationship with some of them, and I told them, I said, I can do what I can do for you, which is I have a podcast. I have a platform. I would be happy to put out whatever you want the world to know, because I can be that channel for you if you're comfortable enough. And they were so on board with it because they felt like they'd been silenced everywhere else. So I started going up there and recording them. And one of the things that's really helped, I think, is being able to bring them into the rooms that I'm teaching in any sort of workshop, any sort of conversation, and also on the podcast, because it shows that the problem is still existing. And it's not people that have left the church that are out to get the church that are sharing these stories now. We have people that are on the inside confirming that reaffirming. And it's very hard for people to silence those people versus those of us that have left. And so I feel like that's helped a little bit as far as shift that perception. And I'm sorry, seen it, like, in the last two years, like, if a news article comes out, there's far less people trying to protect the brand, and there's a lot more people that are aware of what's actually really happening. And that's very much changed over the course of a few years.

[Lola Blanc]

That's amazing. And, well, it sounds like you're instrumental in contributing to that change, so.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Hell, yeah, it's been a journey, but it's been. It's been really rewarding. You know, I started doing these underground women's meetings a year and a half ago because I recognize these women. They need to be supported, but they need answers. They need education. Yeah, from the people that can educate them. Federal officers, people that they can trust within estate agencies, and then local victim advocates, lawyers, like, everybody that can actually really help them answer their questions so that they have the autonomy, so that they can stay safely in the church. And if it doesn't feel safe, they have options and they know what to do. So it gives them the power versus them feeling like they're in the church and they have nobody that's out there listening to them. It's really helped, I believe.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing. Well, where can people find your podcast?

[Jasper Hoffman]

So they can find it on all the platforms, I think, except for SoundCloud. I can't. I can't figure that one out.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But.

[Jasper Hoffman]

So look at the Plain People's Podcast. And I also have a website, plain peoplespodcast.com I started a substack that's called the Plain People's Project, where I share more documents as crimes are coming out to kind of like show behind the scenes of the stories that are coming out and on Instagram, too. The Plain People's podcast.

[Lola Blanc]

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us all of this important stuff and sharing your story.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's all we have with Jasper. Big thanks to Jasper for joining us. Megan, do you have any thoughts on this episode?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think it's really cool that Jasper's mom took her to therapy outside of the community that they were so involved in.

[Lola Blanc]

Um, yeah, that's pretty brave in the context of a community like that. I think so often that wouldn't happen just because of what the consequences could be for the parent or for the kid.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah. And so often, like, her therapist, you know, she said was incredible and wasn't going up against her beliefs or telling her what to do or anything like that. But I remember having been sent to therapy for my own eating disorder and them just kind of being like, what. What does your family believe in? You know?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, really?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Yeah.

[Jasper Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So not to discourage anybody from going to therapy if they're afraid of getting their beliefs questioned, but.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, you know, just a quick callback to the ICSA conference again that I went to the other week because there were a lot of survivors there and a lot of therapists and some people who were both who went into therapy because of their experiences, who were talking about how difficult it was to get appropriate therapy because there aren't enough people trained in the consequences, of course, of control and what that looks like psychologically and what, you know, how to treat it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Which is, you know. Yeah, it's just a specific thing. And religious trauma is a specific thing, but emerging from a closed system is like, a very unique therapeutic thing to tackle.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

That's why it's like. So it is so important to try to find somebody who has some language for that stuff.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And perhaps won't attack the system when you're not ready for it to be affected.

[Lola Blanc]

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And that was the big theme of the weekend, too. I mean, people just continue to say how important that was for them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, very interesting stuff. Thank you so much, Jasper, for coming on. Remember to go Rate us 5 stars. Leave us a comment if you like us. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me.

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Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production

[Megan Elizabeth]

hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Jiha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley,

[Megan Elizabeth]

our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram us trust me podcast or on TikTok at trust me Cult Podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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