Public Ad/Announcer (2:24)

Would I ever lead you astray?

Megan Elizabeth (2:26)

Trust me.

Jenny Eliscu (2:27)

This is the truth.

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The only truth.

Lola Blanc (2:29)

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome. So trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two babies one more time who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

Megan Elizabeth (2:43)

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Lola Blanc (2:45)

And today we are interviewing Jenny Elliscu, journalist, radio host and producer who's produced documentaries like Britney vs. Spears, which covered Britney Spears infamous conservatorship. She'll explain how Britney's struggles in 2008 were used to justify a permanent conservatorship, despite the contradiction of her being deemed too incapacitated to control her life yet well enough to tour, record and generate massive income that her father, whom she barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.

Megan Elizabeth (3:14)

She'll talk about the severity of the conservatorship that strip Britney of the right to use her phone, make medical decisions or even have a say in who her lawyer was going to be and where Britney's fight to end the conservatorship finally landed.

Lola Blanc (3:30)

And before we do this interview with Jenny, Megan, can you tell me your cultiest thing of the week?

Megan Elizabeth (3:36)

Sure. My cultiest thing of the week has just been kind of deep diving into Britney, you know, and I think celebrity in and of itself is a cult and we should really make it illegal.

Lola Blanc (3:51)

Just no one can know who anyone is.

Megan Elizabeth (3:54)

Illegalized celebrity in every way. I think it does something that cults do very intentionally where it isolates people. You really can't connect that well to people. Maybe some people can, but like once you reach that Britney Spears level, it's just kind of. You're isolated. Let's be real.

Lola Blanc (4:16)

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I don't think you have to be, but I think it's very, it seems like it's a very easy like fast track to being surrounded only by people who care about how much money you're making. Yes, men. You're on tour, you're not like at home with your family being grounded or you know, you're like just like constantly going, going, going. Which it makes sense to me that so many people do struggle with mental health when they reach those high heights. Especially because, you know, I'm sure we've talked about this before, but like you just hear so many stories of people who like finally get the thing they wanted their whole life, like the, the Oscar or the Grammy or whatever it is. And then they're like, the next day they're like, wait, that's it. That was this thing I was working for my whole life and there's nothing on the other side. Like I'm just still myself. And the emptiness that can come from that as well. Like, I think there's a lot there that. That can really push people to their breaking point. And, of course, it must be said that while it can probably be very difficult to be a celebrity, a lot of the time, there, of course, are people who are actively seeking out that status because of the power that it affords them.

Jenny Eliscu (5:22)

And.

Lola Blanc (5:23)

And there are many people in those positions that do abuse that power. So that's the flip side of the coin. But, you know, for just, like, the average nice person who ends up a megastar when they weren't prepared for it, I think it can be very damaging to one's mental health.

Megan Elizabeth (5:41)

I just think it's a very destabilizing process for people. And obviously, I have been not successful in my attempts to illegalize celebrity. It's just getting worse every day.

Jenny Eliscu (5:55)

But.

Megan Elizabeth (5:58)

I don't. I. I don't see it as something that really works out well for most people.

Lola Blanc (6:06)

Yeah. And. And for the fans, too. Like, I don't know. Obviously, being a fan of something or someone is great. It's great to have passions and interests. But I was talking about this with someone this week where we were like, I can't think of a time where I've, like, looked at a public figure and been like, I don't care what they do. I will love them no matter what we're like. No, like, if they do something shitty, like, that's shitty, you know, but there's. There's a level of, like, you know, super fandom where it's like, I don't care. I mean, you see this with a lot of Donald Trump supporters. I don't care what they do. I'm gonna follow them no matter what. What? Just because I have this, like, really intense parasocial relationship with this public figure.

Megan Elizabeth (6:48)

Yeah, I probably have that with, like, Danny DeVito.

Lola Blanc (6:54)

Honestly, healthiest one I can think of. That sounds perfect.

Megan Elizabeth (6:59)

He, like, has no bad takes for me. I just like him.

Lola Blanc (7:04)

Oh, I don't think I have it. I don't think I have it. But also, I think, you know, the upbringing that I had, which involved a lot of, like, putting people on pedestals, obviously, maybe that's a contributing factor to why that isn't how I operate. But in high school, when I was 13, I loved the misfits a lot. I'll tell you. Really, I would go hard for the misfits. And in elementary school, I would have gone hard for any Spice Girl. But then, you know, kind of just.

Megan Elizabeth (7:33)

Falls away before we get to your cultiest thing. I will say you did write a Britney Spears song, so we just gotta always.

Lola Blanc (7:42)

Yeah. Yes, Lola. We will.

Megan Elizabeth (7:44)

Wrote a Britney Spears song. I did. So cool.

Lola Blanc (7:47)

I did. We will. And we'll tell you which one in the interview once the interview begins.

Megan Elizabeth (7:51)

What is your cultiest thing?

Lola Blanc (7:54)

It's dumb. It also feels. It also feels so silly, all of it, given how crazy America is right now. But, you know, we're just. It's just not that episode. We're just not gonna talk about that. This episode. America's in a cult. But, okay, I rewatched Fight Club, and I forgot. I didn't really register in my memory that Tyler Durden was fully a cult leader in that movie. That's, like, 100% what's happening. Fight Club is a cult. Everything that he says, you know, the people in Fight Club just, like, repeat it. Like robots, you know, and they do whatever he says. And when he changes his mind, they're like, yes, there must be a reason. And I was like, oh, my God. I just never realized the Fight Club was, like, fully about a cult. I never put it together. And it's a great movie, and it holds up. I will say, yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (8:38)

And then what's the thing about how, like, the book was just written ironically about how men are. The author was, like, pointing out, I think he's gay. I think the author's gay. And he was pointing out how men's only emotion is anger and how easily they can be manipulated through that. Please, please, fact check me on that.

Lola Blanc (8:57)

He is gay. Wow.

Megan Elizabeth (9:00)

Yeah. It's supposed to be ironic, almost American Psycho level. But much like American Psycho, people were like, I'm. I'm inspired.

Lola Blanc (9:13)

Yeah. Wow. I never. I had no idea Chuck Palahniuk was gay. I didn't know any of it. It all makes sense, like, watching it now. But, you know, I just had this, like, high school idea of this movie, and it was like, the movie that boys in high school loved. You know, it's like, just like a cool guy movie. And I'm like, oh, my God.

Megan Elizabeth (9:28)

No.

Lola Blanc (9:28)

It actually is saying so much more than I ever realized about masculinity and consumerism and capitalism. And listen, go rewatch Fight Club. This is a Fight Club commercial.

Jenny Eliscu (9:41)

Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (9:41)

Even if you, like, already thought Fight Club was, you know, very layered and saw that happening also, I just think knowing that it's a book, kind of making fun of how much people would like that movie and be inspired by it is also funny. And Gwynevere Turner, who wrote American Psycho was a guest on this podcast and that is another amazing movie about kind of a culty guy, in my opinion. And celebrity kind of.

Jenny Eliscu (10:11)

I.

Lola Blanc (10:11)

No, I am. No, I'm like, not really.

Megan Elizabeth (10:14)

You know what?

Lola Blanc (10:15)

It was a good. You really tried.

Megan Elizabeth (10:16)

I did try. I really tried to circle back. And that's fine. Sometimes it doesn't work.

Lola Blanc (10:22)

Just try to shout out Guinevere Turner because we love her and we'll always shout her out, but she is unreal.

Megan Elizabeth (10:27)

Unreal. But it did not. It did not tie back. But do you know what does tie back? Our conversation with Ginny. Should we get into it with her?

Lola Blanc (10:37)

Let's do it. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

Jenny Eliscu (11:09)

Meaningful Beauty.

Megan Elizabeth (11:10)

Beautiful skin at every age.

Lola Blanc (11:13)

Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

Public Ad/Announcer (11:19)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures.

Coldwater Creek Ad Announcer (12:20)

You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain west heritage. Distinctive style created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape. Feel good fits offering Ease of movement and thoughtful details to elevate your look. Coldwater Creek's authenticity is embodied in every piece, embracing its confident spirit that carries through to today. Discover Coldwater Creek clothing designed to fit your life the way you want. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season. Visit coldwatercreek.com Shop the new spring collection at 20% off $75 or more with code iheart20.

Lola Blanc (13:08)

Welcome Jenny Eliscu to Trust Me.

Jenny Eliscu (13:11)

Thanks for having me. It's great to meet you.

Lola Blanc (13:13)

Thank you for being here. I've been watching your face for the last 24 hours.

Jenny Eliscu (13:16)

Oh, D.

Lola Blanc (13:19)

You are here with us to talk about Britney Spears, a topic you happen to know quite a bit about. Can you tell us when you first interviewed Brit and how that went?

Jenny Eliscu (13:30)

Yeah. So I first met and interviewed Britney when I was working at Rolling Stone as a writer and had been assigned a cover story on her. And that would have been. Wow. Geez. So I'm gonna guess it was the year 2000. It was in the year 2000. Ish. You probably know better than Brittany, Pete. Brittany. Yeah. And I love her. I mean, you know, I will say at the outset, I'm coming from the perspective of deep love for her having with that first meeting and many, many encounters with her over the years since. So we really hit it off well. And, you know, that was during a period in her life when everything was going great and subsequent to that, because we had gotten on well, like, you know, I would be assigned to her for things of various sizes for the magazine from there, which, you know, is kind of standard thing, like if you have a good relationship with someone. When there's a year, People of the Year, Q and A, or there's a Women in Rock issue, or there's a. Whatever, it would be me. And then, you know, separate from that, like, I was doing some freelancing. And so then it'd be like I got assigned to write about her for Teen Vogue or something. And so there was that.

Megan Elizabeth (14:47)

She's everywhere.

Jenny Eliscu (14:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of opportunities to build a rapport over the years. You know, we at one point were getting together separately to talk about, like, me helping her write a memoir, you know, long, long, long before she actually did write a memoir. I wrote the liner notes for her. My prerogative, Greatest hits. I was in her behind the Music. Like, she would send me thank you gifts. Like, you know, so we had a, you know, a true relationship. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (15:12)

I didn't realize how deep that went from. From the doc.

Megan Elizabeth (15:16)

It sounded like when you first Interviewed her for Rolling Stone. You were like, this isn't really my kind of music, particularly. But what was it about her that charmed you? What was.

Jenny Eliscu (15:24)

I mean, the same thing, I think, that charms everybody about Britney, about the sort of what I guess is seen as her original Persona. Her aura, you know, of just sweetness and, you know, innocence, I feel like, is a loaded term, especially in the context of Britney. But, yeah, I mean, I. You know, I just really appreciated how humble and friendly she was. And she was a superstar, you know, at the peak when I met her. And, you know, although she's younger than me, it was like I was closer in age to her than a lot of other folks at big publications who'd been sent to interview her. And that was something that we chatted about in our first interview is she's like, oh, you're young. Like, she was relieved not to have, like, an old man coming to interview her. And she just. At that. Exactly. And she just. She was just so sweet and accessible and down to earth and. And I was surprised and refreshed by it. So, as you say, even though I wasn't into pop music, I've always been more of just, like, an indie person. But I just got it immediately, like, this is why this person is so magnetic.

Lola Blanc (16:30)

Had you interviewed many pop stars?

Megan Elizabeth (16:33)

No.

Jenny Eliscu (16:33)

I mean, I was still pretty new at Rolling Stone, and I had come from, like, an independent music magazine and was doing, like, indie rock stuff. So I had only really done a couple of bigger pieces before that. Like, my first cover story was with the band Stained. It's Been a While.

Lola Blanc (16:50)

Remember that band? Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (16:51)

So that was, like, not that long before, you know, I had just gotten to rolling stone in 99, like, shortly after the Brittany Teletubby cover is when I started there. So it was like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna write about pop people now. So I think she probably done shorter, you know, Q and A type things with, like, Cisco, Thong, Song, Dance.

Lola Blanc (17:08)

Oh, my God, all of this psychonic.

Jenny Eliscu (17:10)

Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (17:11)

What a cool career.

Jenny Eliscu (17:12)

That's awesome.

Megan Elizabeth (17:12)

Thank you. Yeah. Really?

Lola Blanc (17:14)

So for folks who, like, maybe weren't following the trajectory of this conservatorship, like, can you kind of explain when it began and how and why it happened?

Jenny Eliscu (17:26)

Yeah. Yeah. So the conservatorship began after the era that everyone knows as famously chaotic for Britney. You know, after all of the months in 2007 of people seeing these outbursts in public of her seeming to be in a rollercoaster phase of her life. The famous head shaving and, you know, Driving with a kid on her lap without the seatbelt. You know, all these things that were just thing after thing after thing. And people were like, what will that Britney do next? What do you think she'll do? You know, there was a crescendo leading up to her being put in this conservatorship, including two separate instances when she was brought to the hospital on a psychiatric hold of 5150. And after the first one, the wheels got set in motion. The research, you know, theoretically began then with quote marks I'm doing with my fingers. Because it's believed that her family had actually begun looking into how to do this kind of thing even before that. Because so much of the story as we'll get into, it's about the family. You know, the conservatorship system is a whole other issue. But to me, zooming out for a minute, it's like Britney's story and all of the trauma that's been inflicted on her is a result of toxic, no pun intended, family dynamics. And the conservatorship system is already messed up enough that it could be wielded as a weapon by her family against her. But to me, ultimately, it's a story of if you have family issues, if your family is not coming from a good place in terms of their motives, there's lots of ways they can kind of mess with you. So, yeah, so that was sort of like after she was hospitalized the first time. It's like the wheels were set in motion. The research was happening for how to get a conservatorship. And then after she was soon again hospitalized, it was like, okay, this is when we got the temporary, temporary conservatorship and all the legal processes were underway that eventually, later that year, in 2008, it became permanent.

Lola Blanc (19:34)

So can you explain how a conservatorship works just broadly?

Jenny Eliscu (19:39)

Yeah, conservatorship, which is also known as guardianship, is, you know, something that is sought to look out for the interests of a person who is incapable of handling aspects of their life. And sometimes it's just their finances, sometimes it's their health decisions, sometimes it's, you know, sort of their whole life and the way it was with Britney. And this is the kind of thing that you might seek for a family member if you have an older family member who has dementia and there are various bureaucracies and things you might want to do for that family member that you need to have a guardianship in order to be able to do. You know, I'm sure A lot of folks know you can get power of attorney and you can get an advanced directive healthcare proxy for someone, but sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes that's not enough. In order in the eyes of bureaucracies and the law, to be able to do the person's taxes or, you know, you need. In some cases, you need a step up from that legally. And so that might be in the sort of most innocuous version where you're like, I'm just trying to help my aging parent with their stuff and they have Alzheimer's or whatever, where it's like, unfortunately for certain things, power of attorney and healthcare proxy aren't enough. Then you've got to seek a conservatorship or a guardianship that would give you the power to do stuff for them.

Megan Elizabeth (21:00)

The typical person under the system is not able to probably, like, work or.

Jenny Eliscu (21:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Lola Blanc (21:08)

I have a family member who's under conservatorship because of memory issues from a brain injury. It's because he is, like, completely incapable of, you know, like, handling his affairs or holding a job or anything like that. How do you have any sense of, like, how frequent, like, someone's under conservatorship not for a memory issue, but for just, like, mental illness?

Jenny Eliscu (21:34)

Yeah, I think it's very common. Yeah, you know, I think it's very common for someone. I mean, it can be any number of things. You know, mental health, schizophrenia, you know, these kinds of things, or any number of different, more physical ailments that impede their ability to take care of everything that they need to in their life or understand how to. Yeah, yeah. I think we associate it with older people and I don't know the actual stats on what percentage are geriatric population. I'm sure that's a large portion. I imagine that's a large portion of it. But, you know, it can be any. Any range of folks who would otherwise be legally allowed to make their decisions, but aren't. So if you're a child, you know, you're. You're sort of automatic conservatorship.

Lola Blanc (22:23)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes sense. If somebody is having a psychotic episode or repeated psychotic episodes and they're unable to take care of themselves or are engaging in risky behavior, it totally makes sense as a thing that exists as a theory. Yeah. I mean, and I'm sure much of the time it's necessary, but of course you run into trouble, particularly when somebody is very, very wealthy and there's a lot of money involved and power. Yeah, yeah. Can you Explain what was her relationship with her dad like before the conservatorship, to your understanding?

Jenny Eliscu (22:59)

Yeah, I mean, it's well documented. The relationship with her dad was not good and that he was sort of the secondary parent in terms of during her childhood. He was an alcoholic, and that was a sort of active problem in the household. And so he was not around and parenting in the same way that her mom was. And all of the kind of early getting into the entertainment business stuff for her was with her mom. Her mom was the person who was with her traveling, you know, as her chaperone and guardian and parent, you know, on site for everything. So, and in addition to that fact that she was traveling with her mom, not her dad, her dad also was, you know, an alcoholic. And so that was a problem in the household during her childhood.

Megan Elizabeth (23:42)

I remember Len and her traveling around her mom and being like, what a life. That looks like the perfect life. You know, just interestingly, why did he.

Lola Blanc (23:52)

End up being the person?

Jenny Eliscu (23:54)

Well, I mean, he. He has a take control energy about him.

Megan Elizabeth (23:59)

He's so scary.

Jenny Eliscu (24:00)

Yeah. And the parents, you know, Lynn and Jamie had split up before the conservatorship happened. They were separated or. I don't know if they were divorced then or frankly, if they ever legally got divorced, but I think they probably did. But he's the guy who rules with the iron fist, you know, And I think probably that Lyn thought, oh, I don't wanna be the bad guy and he can be the bad guy. And he, you know, at the time that they got the conservatorship, they had good reason to be concerned about folks who were in her life who might be not the best people to have around during this era and in general. And so Jaime is the one who could scare off any unsavory characters who might be lingering, you know, and he is a very, very intimidating man.

Megan Elizabeth (24:57)

Yeah, you can say that again. He's very scary to me. Like, very scary.

Lola Blanc (25:04)

And who was Lou Taylor?

Jenny Eliscu (25:06)

And Lou Taylor was Brittany's basically like business manager and is a very sort of big time business manager for celebrities and artists and stuff like that. And, you know, famously works with the Kardashians.

Megan Elizabeth (25:19)

It was interesting. Like, Lou had this very Christian oriented take on everything, you know, like Britney's family wants and Jesus wants the best for her. And it was like, you can't just throw that in the mix. Like, that's not fair. I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.

Jenny Eliscu (25:37)

Yeah, I mean, that kind of Christian religious stuff had been a part of her life and her family life and belief system, like from her childhood for sure. So it definitely was part of the family culture even before Lou Taylor got in the mix and for whom that's an important value system as well. I think that that exacerbated the tensions and the inappropriateness of the people who were on top being the ones who were on top. Because that wasn't the value system really. That was most important to Britney in her life at that point, you know, so they really were again sort of imposing their value system on her. That should not have been.

Megan Elizabeth (26:16)

Yeah, and once you have that value system, it's a very narcissistic value system almost because you're like, well, I have the right answer and I'm working with God. So yeah, you don't have.

Lola Blanc (26:28)

God wants this, according to me, because I said so.

Jenny Eliscu (26:32)

But then also just like again, like as you've said, it's like, no, God wants us to make your money, Britney. God wants it to be us. You know, sort of like you can't have, you can't have it both ways. I mean, they did, but you shouldn't.

Lola Blanc (26:50)

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

Jenny Eliscu (27:15)

Meaningful Beauty.

Megan Elizabeth (27:16)

Beautiful skin at every age.

Lola Blanc (27:18)

Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

Public Ad/Announcer (27:25)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your price. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by open to the Public Investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures.

Coldwater Creek Ad Announcer (28:26)

You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain west heritage discovery. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape. Feel good fits offering ease of movement and thoughtful details to elevate your look. Coldwater Creek's authenticity is embodied in every piece, embracing its confident spirit that carries through to today. Discover Coldwater Creek clothing designed to fit your life the way you want for a wardrobe you can count on season after season. Season. Visit coldwatercreek.com Shop the new spring collection at 20% off $75 or more with code iheart20.

Jenny Eliscu (29:14)

The three prongs of what really trapped Britney are the family, the original captors, in a way, and then the business, which also trapped her, whoever that might be, Lou Taylor, or any number of people who came along who made decisions that exacerbated her vulnerability. And then the legal system, you know, ultimately, as the final pin in the puzzle for the legal system to support this conservatorship and support what the family and business folks were insisting on is what actually made the nightmare go another level for her. Yeah, but you know, she had said, she was always saying in that period leading up to the conservatorship, like, one day they're gonna burst through that door, they being her family, and they're gonna lock me up. You know, they're going to take over, they're gonna come for me. That was what she believed. And she was right. They did.

Lola Blanc (30:09)

Oh, well, she tried to have it not be her father initially. Right.

Jenny Eliscu (30:14)

The idea of her trying anything in that phase is like, it's problematic because no one was listening to her. And they were able to not listen to her because they characterized her as being unable to make decisions. And they were able to get the conservatorship in place and bat away, you know, like a cat that's knocking your fricking glass off the table. You know, any attempts by her to say, this isn't what I want, I want to pick my own lawyer, you know, anything like that, by saying, well, she doesn't have the capacity. And just look at her. She doesn't have the capacity.

Megan Elizabeth (30:49)

And even saying she has, like dementia. Correct. Like she has dementia. She can't choose her own lawyer and it's like, what?

Jenny Eliscu (30:55)

Yeah, and this, I imagine, must be a problem for other folks who get into this conservatorship predicament where, you know, you say they need a conservatorship because they don't have the capacity to handle their affairs. But they say, I want to pick my own lawyer. And then they say, but we, as we've established, they don't have the capacity.

Lola Blanc (31:15)

Right.

Jenny Eliscu (31:15)

It's like saying blah, blah, you know, so then what? Well then if you. Then what?

Lola Blanc (31:20)

Yeah, right.

Jenny Eliscu (31:21)

Like that's a trick.

Megan Elizabeth (31:22)

That's a trick. That's a closed loop. Not fair.

Lola Blanc (31:25)

It's like the movie scene where someone gets put into a psych ward and they're like, no, but I'm not crazy. And the more they say they're not crazy, they're like, well, that's exactly what a crazy person would say. Just. Yeah, there's just no way to win really. Which, I mean neither here nor there. But I'm just so curious how that is different state to state because you have to imagine there's some, someone, some state somewhere has some method to be like, I disagree with probably like New Hampshire or something.

Jenny Eliscu (31:51)

I mean, sure, there's, I'm sure there's variation state to state, but you know, the, the best case scenario for the way it's supposed to work is that the courts impose the least restrictive option on the person. So that if. And there are levels of conservatorship, you know, so if you're thinking of good faith, you know, in the legal system, like the good faith outcome is that the courts and the people who are asking for conservatorship are offering the least restrictive option where the person still retains as many of their rights as possible. But we're truly just here to help with blank this one thing. And again, it sort of comes down to this combination of how fucked up the legal system is in whatever state or county, whoever is petitioning for it, how problematic they are in relation to the person and then the person's individual situation. But the courts are supposed to advocate for the person to retain as many of their rights and as much of their autonomy as possible. And you know, I think in the case of Britney, two of the factors that were huge with the timing of this and in general one is we all remember that Britney was creating chaos in and around her home here in Los Angeles by it's not her fault, paparazzi were hounding her, but because she was willing to take them on high speed chases around the mountains that was a problem for the area. That was a problem. You know, that would be a problem for taxpayers. Right. It's scary. It's dangerous. There's a political pressure on judges who are elected officials to keep their constituents happy. And if your wealthy constituents who are like that, Britney's gotta be taken off the streets, you're more likely to take her off the streets by putting her.

Megan Elizabeth (33:36)

In A conservative needs to be taken off the streets. Because the way they were attacking her and hounding her, I mean, I couldn't live a single day of my life like that. And it's so reminiscent of Princess Diana, you know, it's just wild how every step was a problem. I mean, just attacked.

Jenny Eliscu (33:56)

Yeah, exactly. No, and no one would argue that the paparazzi should be put in a conservatorship, even though what they're doing defies logic. But, you know, the other problem is just. And this continues to be a problem is usually the. The audience, the fourth prong is us.

Lola Blanc (34:11)

Oh, no, we're doing it right now.

Jenny Eliscu (34:13)

Yeah. I mean, you know, not what we're doing right now, but the thing everyone else does all the time, even after she's gotten out of the conservatorship and leading up to it long before, is to put this lens on her that is this unfair lens that strips her of free will and, you know, doesn't credit her with intelligence and autonomy. And that just objectifies her to an extent that we can be like, no, I'd rather have her dad pulling the strings than a free Britney, you know, because I don't know if I understand this woman who shaved her head or who is this? This isn't what we signed up for. This isn't what we want her to be. So if this is gonna make her blonde and turn her back to what I want. Exactly. Then I guess we'll just accept that she really needed it. And I still. Even getting ready to meet with y', all, I was like, reading some, you know, Reddit board about her memoir and people reacting. And I see this stuff all the time of people saying, well, she, yeah, she needed this, or she. She still needs somebody to. You know, everyone has these opinions. Not everyone, but, you know, that the conservatorship, she did need something to happen. And I don't know, I still feel like there's this level of us pathologizing her that is disturbing to me. And I think that people, even with the best intentions, don't see how fucked up it is that when they look at her, they think she's Something's wrong with her. Like, what? What? Something's wrong with you that you look at a person that is a stranger that you don't know, and you're willing to just believe all of the narrative that's been constructed by folks who don't wish her well to decide, oh, yeah, something's wrong with her, though. Like, no.

Megan Elizabeth (35:58)

Are you saying kind of like. Cause we have had guests on before who. Well, one guest who was like part of a fandom and she found herself to be in kind of a cult. Remember that guest? Is it kind of like we as a, as a society need to stop making figures and pop culture our cult leaders because then we lose perspective on what is right, what is wrong, and I'm putting quotation marks, you know, what they should do, and then it's an unfair placement on them and we don't know them. Is that kind of the.

Jenny Eliscu (36:31)

Yeah, some of it. I mean, I just think it's this objectification ultimately that we, you know, if only we would treat them like cult leaders almost, because then, you know, we would listen to them when they say, hey, I want to be free or something. You know, it's that we strip them of any free will and we make them into these, like, you know, Barbie dolls that we can move around and be like, I want them to be doing this and that now. And I mean, I think there are.

Lola Blanc (36:59)

A lot of fans, though, who are just genuinely concerned for her safety. Like, I, you know, we've. We've seen a lot of people online who are. Who, like, want her to be free and also want her to be safe. I just want to speak to, like, those people definitely exist. You know what I mean? Like.

Jenny Eliscu (37:12)

Right. I just would push back on that. Why do we think she's unsafe?

Lola Blanc (37:15)

I think, I think it's hard for people to look at behavior that seems different from, you know, how someone would typically act online or whatever and not think that there's like, something happening mental health wise, you know what I mean? Like, we don't know, but, like, hopefully, whatever help she needs, if she needs it, she's getting it. I'm not the one to say what that is or what that looks like. It's certainly not her father having a conservatorship over her.

Jenny Eliscu (37:43)

Yeah. I mean, am I being devil's advocate a tiny bit, but. But no. I just think that any other person on social media who were to post videos that Britney posts that we don't have some elaborate backstory about, we would not necessarily look at it and Say, I hope she's safe, I hope she's getting help. We might say, ooh, spicy or quirky or like, you know, that interesting. Oh, she seems like fun. You know, there's different ways we would look at it. It's because we know too much or we think we know too much about what's quote unquote really going on that people project this thing onto her, that I hope she gets help or she needs help when possibly. And again, we don't know her diagnoses, whatever they may or may not be, although people like to speculate about that. What if she's just neurodivergent? And if she's neurodivergent, don't we want her to have the same autonomy and freedom from our perceptions and assumptions that any other neurodivergent normie would get from us? But because we've co opted her and her brand so much, people feel perfectly comfortable saying, like some, I don't know, I wonder what's wrong with her. Like, the whole way it's framed to me is so judgmental in a way that I thought, you know, as a society, we're not judgmental about neurodivergence. Like we. Everyone is free to be who they are. And it doesn't. You can't just come in and take someone's rights away because they're different. And we can't force people to take medication they don't want to take just so that they are who we thought we wanted them to be. Right.

Megan Elizabeth (39:24)

Right. You know what it reminds me of a little bit? The documentary Mother God. Have you seen it?

Jenny Eliscu (39:30)

I haven't.

Megan Elizabeth (39:30)

You haven't? Oh, do you remember it? Lola?

Lola Blanc (39:33)

Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (39:33)

Where she's kind of like put in this position and they're like, you are. God, you are everything. And then she's like, actually, I don't.

Lola Blanc (39:41)

Think that I am.

Megan Elizabeth (39:41)

And they're like, no, you are and you will be. And it's kind of like once you get into this point in the zeitgeist, you can kind of be like, you know what? I'm shaving my head. I don't want to do it anymore. I'm out. And the people are like, no, you're going to. You're going to be what we need.

Jenny Eliscu (39:57)

Yeah. I mean, people always do this thing where they say, like with celebrities or whatever, if they complain at all or they fight back against it, like, this is what you signed up for, you know, kind of thing.

Lola Blanc (40:08)

Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (40:08)

And then you want to say, like, no one knows what they signed up for. You know, it's not like when you signed up to. To be a bartender and you're like, well, you knew you were gonna have to be here till close. Like, no matter how ambitious you might be, especially as legitimately a fucking child, like.

Megan Elizabeth (40:24)

Exactly.

Jenny Eliscu (40:25)

But anyone who pursues fame, you don't. You can't know until you get it how disturbing it can be. Especially if you have a certain kind of nervous system or you have any neurodivergence or anything else going on that you're like, I wasn't expecting it to.

Megan Elizabeth (40:39)

Be so scared, so disregulated.

Lola Blanc (40:42)

Wanting to be in movies or be a singer doesn't necessarily mean that you want people staring at you and scrutinizing your every move every single hour of every day. Like, those are different things. Like, they can go hand in hand, but it doesn't mean you want the second thing.

Jenny Eliscu (40:58)

I don't know.

Megan Elizabeth (40:59)

Yeah. And then it just becomes like, kind of a parent thing. Like, I do see more and more now kids who are young people who are pursuing a career and are successful, and you just don't see them outside of that atmosphere. Like, they're not paparazzi as much.

Jenny Eliscu (41:16)

Yeah. I think the paparazzi economy, like, is dwindled because of, you know, social media and the fact that people document themselves. And so there's not as much of that. Like, the only. The only way you're gonna get a pic of Ariana is if you follow her. It's like, if, you know, I think folks have figured out, like, if I post enough of myself, there's not that desperation to. To get that stuff.

Megan Elizabeth (41:38)

How much was the picture of Britney Spears going for? Like, a good picture.

Jenny Eliscu (41:41)

Oh, snap. I. I don't. I don't. I don't actually know. I would be making up some impressive figures.

Megan Elizabeth (41:47)

I mean, I do. I do believe in. In the docket set at hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Jenny Eliscu (41:51)

Yeah, I. I think that would probably.

Lola Blanc (41:52)

Have been right when it was like. Yeah. When it was like, the most controversial era where everyone wanted.

Megan Elizabeth (41:56)

That's insane.

Lola Blanc (41:57)

The paparazzi now is the Internet. It's just Internet content.

Jenny Eliscu (41:59)

Yeah.

Lola Blanc (42:00)

Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (42:00)

But I did like the reference of the. The paparazzi who said, like, this attracts adrenaline junkies and gambling addicts. And I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense that these are the kind of people that are swarming.

Lola Blanc (42:11)

Totally.

Megan Elizabeth (42:12)

Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (42:12)

I mean, it's all men. And if. And just to think about how scary it must be for any non man to be harassed by these aggressive, greedy men who Are chasing you and pushing and screaming at you, Trying to get a reaction. Yeah, trying. Just trying to get a reaction. And if you have any traumatic history with aggressive men, and now there's a bunch of aggressive men yelling at you and chasing you.

Megan Elizabeth (42:37)

Oh, yeah, totally. Alcoholic dad. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (42:42)

Tell us about the bathroom signature.

Jenny Eliscu (42:44)

Yes. So, as I was saying earlier, like, she tried to get her own lawyer. Cause in the early days of the conservatorship, that was maybe one way she was gonna be able to get out of. It was like, if she can choose her own lawyer, rather than having a lawyer designated by the court and her parents signing off on, then she can convey to that lawyer, I don't want this. This is unfair. I don't need this. And that person would advocate for her because she chose them. And so there were multiple attempts by her, except that everyone in charge was trying to keep her from doing these things. Keeping her from having a phone, keeping her from monitoring all of her communications so that they could prevent something like that and ultimately say, well, she doesn't have. Again, she doesn't have the capacity to choose a lawyer, so this is invalid. Even though she somehow got away and met up with Adam Streisand, one of the lawyers who was up for representing her and taking it on. And, you know, sort of instantly, they would find a way to get it thrown out. And so that had happened a few times in early 2008. And in 2008, I wrote another Rolling Stone cover story about Britney. When I was trying to set up the interviews, sort of. I hadn't followed that closely. I had sort of taken a break from paying attention to what was going on. Because the. As someone who really, like. Even though we just had this journalistic relationship, I really cared about her. And I didn't like seeing the way she was being treated. And so I just. If I wasn't on assignment, I didn't need to be, like, in the ins and outs of it. And then I got assigned to do another cover story with her. And she was gonna have her album come out, her circus album. And I was like, okay, we're doing it. Me and Brittany, we're gonna do the thing. I reached out to the people at the label, the publicist. Let's set up some time. And I started hearing, oh, there's this conservatorship. So Things that I had never had to do before with someone who, again, I had had all of these interactions with her. I had been with her on our own, talking about these other projects. They're like, oh, you have to submit your questions ahead of time at Rolling Stone. Back then that was unheard of.

Megan Elizabeth (44:54)

It was rock and roll, baby. We're in the moment.

Jenny Eliscu (44:56)

Well, it's just truly un journalistic. Like you don't. You're not allowed to see my questions. It goes against all of the rules of journalism. You don't submit your questions ahead of time. And I reached out to my editor and I was like, well, you're gonna need to talk to them because they're saying this crazy talk. And he was like, yeah, you're gonna have to do that. And I was like, what? Cuz Britney sells magazines. They wanted to get the COVID so they were willing to accommodate it. And then the next thing was, okay, you're gonna. And they would strike some questions from the list. You know, I remember I was gonna ask her about the. For the 2008 presidential election. That was one of the things they were like, no, don't ask with that.

Megan Elizabeth (45:35)

I would have loved to know that answer.

Jenny Eliscu (45:37)

I know, right? Her manager has to be in the room for the interview. Again, that's not allowed. You're not allowed to insist on that in true journalism, you know. So I was like, oh, well, this is gonna be the one. My editor's not gonna say yes to that. They said yes to that. So at every turn I'm like, but.

Megan Elizabeth (45:53)

It'S me and Britney, we've done this.

Lola Blanc (45:54)

She loves me.

Jenny Eliscu (45:56)

At every turn they would be like, sorry, it's not me, it's the conservatorship. And that made me feel like, what the fuck is a conserv? I need to figure out what's going on here. And did a bunch of research and ended up writing this cover story that was sort of. Not to say it was critical of the conservatorship, but it was sort of raised some questions about whether it was over the top. And how could someone who was unwell enough to need a conservatorship be well enough to be putting out an album? That's the central problem with the conservatorship, is that if you're sick enough to need one, you're too sick to work. And they kept making her work. So in reporting that story, I had developed relationships with some of my sources, including the exiled, disgraced former manager, Sam Lutfey, who. Say what you will, yes, very problematic, definitely shady, definitely did some things that were beyond unprofessional, but also was a scapegoat and did have Britney's best interests at heart in some ways and had Some compelling information about this attempt to get lawyers and how that would have been good for her and why it was fucked up that they wouldn't let her. So in early 2009, he was sort of still hearing from her and reaching out to her and trying to find a lawyer who would take the case, even though it had been ineffective previously, and found a lawyer who was up for it. And all that had to happen was that Britney had to sign this legal documents saying, I want this person to be my lawyer, this guy John Anderson. And how were we gonna get We. Cause I was in the mix, like, just being like, I gotta try and help her to sign this thing. When no one could reach her. You couldn't. There was no way to get access to her.

Megan Elizabeth (47:37)

No telephone.

Jenny Eliscu (47:39)

No telephone. They would have to sneak her a telephone. Someone would have to slip it in her bag at the. Just.

Megan Elizabeth (47:45)

From going to the biggest pop star to. No car, no phone. It's so wild.

Lola Blanc (47:50)

It's like living in jail.

Megan Elizabeth (47:51)

It's.

Lola Blanc (47:51)

It's.

Jenny Eliscu (47:52)

I mean, yeah, there was one moment where, like, she had gotten. Someone had slipped her a cell phone. And then she was talking on the cell phone, but she had the baby monitor on and, oh, my God, the nanny or something heard Britney talking on a phone on the baby monitor and ratted her out to her dad. And so they took the phone away. You know, she was on her way out of the house, and they grabbed the purse, and they open the purse and they take the phone. It's like, okay, got to get her another phone. So anyway, Lutvi coordinated this meeting, you know, through some phone that had been snuck to her that. You know, Jenny Eliscu, remember her? She's gonna meet you at whatever day it was that she was going to this hotel. Okay. That's where the meet's gonna happen. You'll go and you'll see her. You'll go meet her in the bathroom. She'll have these papers to get this lawyer, and you'll sign them.

Megan Elizabeth (48:39)

You were in a Britney Spears heist.

Jenny Eliscu (48:41)

Honestly, it felt very heisty. Yes. I was like, am I in a movie? This is insane.

Lola Blanc (48:46)

Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (48:46)

That's truly scary shit. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (48:49)

The fact that. Well, first of all. And nothing came of that, right?

Jenny Eliscu (48:53)

Nothing came of it. Yeah, exactly. Like, she signed it. She said thank you. She, to me, seemed to know what she was signing. And it was scary for both of us. She was scared. I was scared. I had, like, sneaked down the stairs. While I was there, a paparazzi was getting the shit beat out of Them by security guards in the parking garage downstairs. So when I got back from that, Lutvi was like, did you see police while you were there? I'm like, oh, God, no. Why? And he's like, because it turns out, look on. You know, is on online already that this thing had happened anyway.

Lola Blanc (49:21)

Wow.

Jenny Eliscu (49:22)

They. The same thing happened. They. Well, they said it was not her signature. Was the first sort of thing they would say, that's not her signature, that's a forgery. Because they couldn't figure out how, how and when it had happened. And then. And even if it is her signature, she doesn't have the capacity to choose a lawyer anyway. So within a couple of days, it was like, well, that was for naught. Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (49:46)

If she would have gotten a lawyer who wasn't being paid for her to be in a conservatorship, what do you think the outcome could have been?

Jenny Eliscu (49:56)

I mean, you know, it could have been what ended up happening in 2021 when Matthew Rosengart took over as her lawyer and there was momentum toward the conservatorship ending at that point for various reasons. But definitely Rosengart, like, pushed it to the finish line to get her out of it. And Adam Streisand, like, he was motivated and he's a great attorney, and he thought that it was unfair and.

Lola Blanc (50:19)

Which one was Adam Streisand?

Jenny Eliscu (50:21)

He was like the first guy. He was the first guy who she snuck off and met with in early 2008 and is related to Barbara. That Streisands.

Megan Elizabeth (50:29)

Oh, my God.

Jenny Eliscu (50:30)

Of course. I think they're like cousins or something. Anyway, he a powerful lawyer. He was up for taking it on, understood why it was unfair. And when they were like, you know, she has lack of capacity and people just dropped it. And I get it. They could really make a case against her that you don't wanna. You don't wanna take up with Britney. You don't wanna. She's really messed up. She could have gotten out of it if somebody had stuck with it. She could have gotten out of it in 2008, you know, once they made it, quote, unquote, permanent later that year. This was before the bathroom thing, but when they made it permanent, that was sort of like. When it was like, oh, shit. Permanent. Like, how are you gonna. On some. You know, what was she not even 30?

Megan Elizabeth (51:10)

How old is she at 29?

Jenny Eliscu (51:12)

Yeah. You're gonna say the rest of this lady's life.

Lola Blanc (51:14)

Wow. Wow, that's so wild. Especially. Cause, like, I don't know, like, we've. We've talked to. We know a number of people who've had, like, psychotic episodes, for example, and then they come out of it, and then they live normal lives, and it's. You know, it's fine. Like, maybe sometimes it'll happen again, but, like, then once that episode is over again, they're perfectly fine and capable of living their lives. And those are people who are like, full break from reality, you know, like, not to say that it's always fine after, because, of course, there's a spectrum of experiences. But, like, the idea that, like, if somebody were having some kind of mental health episode, that they should be trapped for all eternity after is just. Just seems like a wild misunderstanding of how things work, I guess.

Megan Elizabeth (51:59)

Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (51:59)

And then also the person. If the person who's designated to be their conservator is the last person they ever would have chosen that should have some influence, even if they're determined to be lacking in certain capacity. It's like to say, okay, I don't want it to be my dad who scares the shit out of me.

Lola Blanc (52:17)

Right. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's surprising to me that they chose somebody who had a very clear, documented history of alcoholism to be the one who was. And she brought that up at some point, too.

Jenny Eliscu (52:29)

And setting aside the alcoholism, like, it's just like, in a family that there's issues here and there with everyone, but, like, he was the person in the family she had the worst relationship with. So alcoholic or not, like, you should not have to be put under control of your least favorite person in your family, the person in your family you're the most scared of. You know, and that the great example, the most evocative example, and this is in Britney's memoir of Jaime being. What word would I use? A beast. You know, is this moment when Jamie says, I'm Britney now. You know, he's. You know, somebody is sort of asking, he's making decisions, and somebody is like, britney. And he says, I'm Britney now. It's horror movie. It's horror movie.

Megan Elizabeth (53:16)

Yeah.

Lola Blanc (53:17)

Yeah. Also to be clear, I'm not saying alcoholics are. No, we know.

Jenny Eliscu (53:20)

We know.

Megan Elizabeth (53:21)

I'm in. I'm an alcoholic. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (53:23)

Like, people in recovery are many, many people in my life who I love.

Megan Elizabeth (53:26)

No, we get it.

Jenny Eliscu (53:28)

Totally.

Lola Blanc (53:29)

You know, they're picking the person with the worst relationship who's also had this history, you know, Like, I just.

Jenny Eliscu (53:33)

All the factors that overlapped in this case that I think is why it was so fucked and why she was trapped in it for so long. And why? You know, it's not any of them on their own, but it had to be all of the factors. It had to be. Honestly, I think part of what they were so scared of, they being her family, was her substance use. And sometimes people who have histories with substances themselves are even more defensive about other people using. And the idea that Britney was using and that they had to take control of that. I think some of Jamie's reactivity to that was because of his history with alcoholism. To be like, you know, you don't want your kid going down that path. And so you're like, I'm not. No, Britney's not gonna be on drugs.

Megan Elizabeth (54:19)

So do you think there was like a nugget of goodwill in his heart? Because to me he's just pure evil and is like, I'm gonna take all your money and I'm Britney Spears now.

Jenny Eliscu (54:27)

No, it's not so much goodwill. I think it's just that conflicting. Like, I think his sort of psychological portrait was full of conflict and I think his own self loathing about his history as an alcoholic made him irate about her using substances and project some of it. Also, as you know, you've read her memoir, and it's in Lynn's memoir as well, that Jamie had a traumatic childhood where his own mother, you know, he had a sibling who died, you know, as an infant, and his mom ultimately committed suicide. She actually shot herself on the child's grave when Jamie was a child. Oh, my God, my heart breaks for him that he had that experience. You know, it doesn't mean that that's why he did to Britney what he did. But I do have empathy for him. But I think all the decisions he made were bad. And I think that it's not just his own trauma, it's greed and a lot of greed surrounding her, coming at her from all sides.

Megan Elizabeth (55:33)

How much did he get paid to be Britney Spears?

Jenny Eliscu (55:36)

Shit. I forget. Honestly, I forget how much it was. It was a lot of money, though.

Megan Elizabeth (55:40)

Yeah.

Jenny Eliscu (55:40)

Like hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Wow. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (55:44)

And what about the attorney? How much money was he making?

Jenny Eliscu (55:48)

Yeah, I mean, the attorney, the various attorneys were making a lot of money as well. Yeah. And that's, you know, money Brittany was paying them.

Lola Blanc (55:57)

Yeah. So it's highly profitable basically to keep her in this conservatorship and not just because they get paid to do it, but also, like, I'd love for you to talk about her being compelled to keep working and like, what that actually looked like and how it became, like, insisted upon.

Jenny Eliscu (56:14)

Yeah. You know, she made, I think, four albums during the course of the conservatorship. So four albums in 13 years, which is the kind of case at which, you know, Adele might make albums 4 and 13 years not in a conservatorship. So, you know, she really was kept. And of course, obviously she did X Factor as a judge and she had her Vegas show, so she was working a lot. Might she have autonomously chosen to do that stuff? Cause she loved singing and making music. Yes, she might have, but she would not have worked as hard as they made her work, given the choice, because she wanted to get married and she wanted to get pregnant and, you know, the keeping her working. I think maybe if you attribute good motives, like they thought, oh, this will be good for her, it'll be healthy for her to keep working. But if you attribute the worst motives to them, it was so that they could keep earning at the highest rate possible by drawing profits on her working and sitting around. Britney is not gonna make them as much money.

Lola Blanc (57:11)

Yeah, some of the stuff in the documentary of people talking about how she needed to work to make a certain amount of money or whatever really stressed me out. Like, it. We were saying before you got here that it felt like a horror movie, like someone is taking over your life, is making all of your decisions for you and is forcing you. I mean, like, again, yes, it seems like she really loves what she does. So I'm not saying that she didn't love what she does, but, like, kind of seemed like she just didn't have a choice, though.

Megan Elizabeth (57:34)

No, it's like put the lotion in the basket level crazy. Like, her dad is, like, taking her skin and wearing her and being like.

Jenny Eliscu (57:41)

She literally didn't have a choice. No, you're exactly right. She truly had no choice. She was, in the eyes of the law, like a child and had no rights and could make no decisions on her own. And they controlled the entire environment. And everything she knew and thought was based on very. She was sheltered, she was kept away from information that could have helped her. And she only knew what they wanted her to know because she didn't have access to the phone and the Internet. And so in a very culty way. Yes. She was cut off from the outside world and all the decisions were made for her. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (58:17)

Can you talk more about that? Like, what are some of the things she was not allowed to do that didn't make sense?

Jenny Eliscu (58:23)

Well, I mean, one of the main things and she, in her really powerful testimony from that summer of 2021, when she spoke to the court, you know, and she talked specifically about how they had put an IUD in her and she. Britney has always wanted to have more kids. It's, you know, she loves being a mom. She loved having kids. She wanted to have more kids after the boys. Say what we will about the choices of partners and how that might have played out if she had had kids with them, but nonetheless, her choice. Right. And of course, they didn't want her to get pregnant and she was forced to have an IUD implanted. I don't know in any other conservatorship situation if some other person, like, if that would ever be allowed. And I worry that it would be, you know, with someone else who had been deemed to lack the capacity where they would, well, we don't want her. Or if they could be forced to have an abortion if they got pregnant that they didn't want to have. Like, I fear that, that, that, that might be true for, for anyone in that situation. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (59:28)

So I'm Britney, I'm living in. I'm living in my house and I have no phone and if I want to go to the store to buy my. In the documentary there was like, she couldn't. She said she couldn't go to the store to buy her kids some books. Like, she would have to ask for permission and wait for the money and wait for approval to just do basic human things to go for a drive. It just seems so extreme. Like there's levels of conservatorships. Like there could be financial conservatorships or whatever, but like to not be able to do anything. Anything.

Jenny Eliscu (60:01)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, yes. From legal experts I've read talking about this, they say that someone who presented like Britney, who was capable of working to the level that she was visibly capable of working, would never quote, unquote, have the court approve a conservatorship this intense and this extreme that no normal quote, unquote person would have had this strict kind of stuff imposed on them. But again, it goes back to this sort of like we've objectified her beyond comparison to a point where it's like, oh, but this is different, though. This is different. One of the fucked up, though, like, double standards was that at the beginning of the conservatorship, it was like, we can't get insurance on a tour if she's not in a conservative. That was some of what her family said. We only did it because the only way to get insurance on a tour is to put her in a conservatorship but if she. Again, if she needs a conservatorship, then should she be touring?

Megan Elizabeth (60:56)

Yeah, exactly.

Jenny Eliscu (60:56)

Let her just.

Megan Elizabeth (60:57)

It's the most stressful thing in the world to go on a tour that's.

Lola Blanc (61:00)

Not good for your mental health.

Megan Elizabeth (61:01)

No, I mean, that's. A tour is like.

Lola Blanc (61:03)

People crack on tour.

Megan Elizabeth (61:05)

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make any sense except financially.

Lola Blanc (61:12)

Jamie was making money as her conservator that he would not be making if he was not her conservator. And so what do you think the goal was of the level of restriction for him? What did that achieve?

Jenny Eliscu (61:24)

I think a combination of making sure that nothing threatened the conservatorship. That is, if she's left alone with someone from the outside, they could fight for her to get free. If she has enough time with someone. This is why they made all her boyfriends sign a very extensive contract. You know, background checks. And then they would have to sign a contract was super extensive. That would give you would have access to. They would have access to the person's email, you know, because anything that might threaten the ongoing nature of the conservatorship and the ongoing profits they were trying to avoid. So that's. Some of the restrictions are that. Some of the restrictions are. And this is my opinion, you know, to punish her just to be cruel purely for the sake of cruelty.

Megan Elizabeth (62:13)

Maybe her dad was jealous.

Jenny Eliscu (62:15)

Yeah, I think there was just a lot. I think there was a lot in there.

Megan Elizabeth (62:19)

He actually wanted to be Britney Spears.

Lola Blanc (62:23)

It's the creepiest thing I've ever heard. It's so culty in that. That's exactly what cult leaders do. You can't talk to. To people on the outside. They're evil. You can't. I'm gonna restrict your information. I'm going to prevent you from talking to anybody because they might lead you to question the power that I have over your life. And nothing should be allowed to threaten that power. So, no, you can't have friends we.

Megan Elizabeth (62:49)

Don'T approve of and my power is permanent and forever. Forever to eternity.

Jenny Eliscu (62:54)

Yeah. Yeah. To an extent that to any outsider seems cruel. Why would you. Why would you treat people that way who are so. In a cult, so devoted to you? You know, at least with Britney and Jamie there was this like, oh, you're pushing back, you're rebelling, and so now I'm punishing you and you're rebelling and so now I'm punishing you kind of vicious cycle. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (63:16)

So how did she. Are we ready for this? Yeah, for the freedom question. You want to ask your vanilla question?

Megan Elizabeth (63:23)

I do, but I don't know if it's crazy.

Lola Blanc (63:25)

Okay.

Jenny Eliscu (63:26)

I want to hear. I love a crazy question.

Megan Elizabeth (63:28)

Okay. And if you don't want to answer, what does Britney Spears smell like? Cause I imagine it's like, vanilla and a hint of, I don't know, Victoria's Secret perfume or something beautiful.

Jenny Eliscu (63:42)

Yeah, I love that question.

Coldwater Creek Ad Announcer (63:44)

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Jenny Eliscu (63:45)

Yes. And I feel like an asshole that I don't really remember or that it didn't rate with me enough to retain an olfactory nothing. I mean, everything about her during the first portion of, like, my encounters with her was super wholesome and cute and exactly what you would. Exactly what you would.

Megan Elizabeth (64:07)

Like suntan lotion.

Lola Blanc (64:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The coconut.

Jenny Eliscu (64:10)

Just, like, messy. Messy ponytail and, like, comfy but cute outfit. And, like, you know, this isn't an answer to your question, but it's a very. My favorite cute Britney story is, like, on occasion, when I was interviewing her and Felicia, her famous Felicia, also adorable. Yeah. Had gone to get. Brittany wanted quiznos. She wanted quiznos. And Felicia went and got her her favorite sandwich from Quiznos. And it comes back. And they had asked if I wanted anything. I didn't. I was just there to do an interview, and Brittany's eating the sandwich, and she's like, oh, my gosh, it's so good. You want a bite? And I was like, I'm okay. I'm not gonna bite your sandwich. Britney Spears, you know, she was just like, you have to. It's so good.

Coldwater Creek Ad Announcer (64:50)

You have to have a bite. You have to have a bite.

Jenny Eliscu (64:52)

And she made me take a bite of her Quiznos.

Lola Blanc (64:54)

Oh, my God. How was it?

Jenny Eliscu (64:55)

It was yummy, but I was also just. I was just like, wow. Like, that's how.

Lola Blanc (64:59)

That's so sweet.

Jenny Eliscu (65:00)

Like, just normal and cool.

Megan Elizabeth (65:03)

Britney Jean.

Jenny Eliscu (65:04)

Brittney Jean. Yes. I'll take a bite of your Quiznos if you insist.

Megan Elizabeth (65:08)

Oh, my God. Quiznos has never gotten such a great. I'm like, yeah, I need one right now. I'm like, what. What is Quiznos?

Jenny Eliscu (65:15)

Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (65:17)

Okay. That was all.

Jenny Eliscu (65:18)

That was all I needed to know about that.

Megan Elizabeth (65:20)

You can go to the.

Jenny Eliscu (65:20)

That fact.

Megan Elizabeth (65:21)

Final question.

Lola Blanc (65:21)

Okay. Are we all talking, like, Britney now?

Jenny Eliscu (65:24)

Wow.

Lola Blanc (65:25)

Oh, by the way, I wrote a Britney song in 2013. What was happening with her in 2013? Do you know?

Jenny Eliscu (65:30)

Oh, my gosh, I don't know.

Lola Blanc (65:31)

Okay.

Megan Elizabeth (65:31)

That was her best year.

Lola Blanc (65:32)

It was the Smurfs 2 era.

Jenny Eliscu (65:35)

I do have one other very cute, funny Britney story. If you have time for It. Which is on when we were talking about trying to do a memoir. So I had a couple of, like, meetups with her, kind of just us. And she was in New York, and we. I was at her hotel, and the TV was on while we were chatting. And American Idol had just finished. And at that time, House, you know, the medical drama would come on after. And, you know, the opening credits. And it had that massive attack teardrop as the theme song is playing. And it's classic medical drama visuals where it's like pages from the anatomy book and X rays and stuff. And Britney's, like, all scrunched up, head tilted, like, confused Britney face. And she's like. She's like, why are they. Why are they showing skeletons? She asked me, why are they showing skeletons? And I was like, oh. Cause House is coming on. She's like, huh? She's still sort of like, what? And I was like, oh, you know, it's like a medical drama. And she's still like, all right, but why skeletons, though? She's like, I love you. I love you. I've gotten to the end of the why? Chain of answers. I don't know why. Cause they're in the body. I don't know. Anyway, skeletons, though.

Lola Blanc (66:43)

Cute. So cute.

Megan Elizabeth (66:44)

Anyway, I love knowing that. Yeah.

Lola Blanc (66:48)

So how did you finally get free after. Was it 13 years?

Jenny Eliscu (66:52)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess the series of events. My understanding of the series of events, you know, there's a couple of versions. One version is the dad, Jamie, was sick, and that that was causing Britney distress, and that this catalyzed a series of things. The other version of the story is that Britney, they were talking about another Vegas show. The show was supposed to end. She didn't want to do anymore. And when she found out that they were planning more, she started to, quote, unquote, act out, I. E. Say, I don't wanna do it. I'm not gonna do it. And so in order to punish her for that, she was committed into this rehab where she was, as she's talked about, given lithium and really just, you know, medically restrained. And that's when, you know, there was this sort of information leaked that she had been put in this rehab and that. And this is when a lot of the free Britney movement that had been going on for years started to surge. And public awareness of it started to surge. And so in spring of 2019, everyone was talking about what's going on with Britney. Wait a minute. All of a sudden, people started to question, wait a minute, is this okay that she's in this conservatorship. You know, all these years later, attitudes change and people were starting to open their eyes to like, maybe this is too restrictive, or maybe me, I'm sitting over there, I'm just like, yeah, hello. Been saying this since 2008. But it's great that it was fans and the public and this online movement of people who really brought it home. As much as there were other factors, whether it was just the timing and the New York Times documentary kicked open a door, certainly. And just all of the renewed focus on it and eventually, you know, Rosengart getting in there and really advocating for her, all of these things led to it. But I think the public pressure from Free Britney is a huge part of why the same judge who for years had been rubber stamping it to continue, finally, you know, undertook to end it. And Jamie, the ACLU were like, we support Britney. And finally Jamie, who has been in failing health and had been like, said, okay, yeah, I'll step down. And so it just. Then momentum finally built toward it ending, you know, that fall.

Lola Blanc (69:07)

Wow.

Jenny Eliscu (69:08)

And her testimony. Right? Her testimony was so powerful.

Lola Blanc (69:10)

So powerful.

Jenny Eliscu (69:11)

Beautiful. Yeah.

Coldwater Creek Ad Announcer (69:13)

Yeah.

Lola Blanc (69:13)

And what did it feel like when you found out?

Jenny Eliscu (69:16)

I mean, just crying, happy, thrilled, working on the documentary that I was a part of. Britney versus Spears, like, was so emotional and intense and traumatic and scary, but fulfilling. And so there were so many moments. I mean, her testimony just broke me, you know, for sure. Like, but. And when Jaime stepped down, I was just like, I think it's happening. I think it's happening. You know, that was major moment. But, yeah, I definitely cried a lot of tears of joy for her when it ended.

Megan Elizabeth (69:55)

Yeah.

Lola Blanc (69:55)

I hope it sheds a light for people on how conservatorships can be abused. Would that we could all have a Free Britney movement if, you know, if someone is being controlled to that degree when they shouldn't be. But I'm so. I mean, thank God. Thank God for all those fans and podcasts and journalists. People like you, like, fighting for that for so long.

Jenny Eliscu (70:17)

Yeah. I hope we don't do it to her again. You know, I hope that people will just take a step back when they're looking at something she puts online and ask themself before they say what's wrong with her or think that thought to just pause and imagine it's your kooky cousin or, you know, it's just someone not Britney tm, you know, and think like, maybe, just maybe she should just be free to be her and we've gotten enough. We've extracted enough from her at this point. Let's just let her live her life comfortably however she wants.

Lola Blanc (70:51)

Well, that answers my next question, which was what do you wish for her going forward? But I like that answer. Can you just tell us where people can find your work both with this documentary and others?

Jenny Eliscu (71:02)

Yeah, the documentary is on Netflix. It's called Britney vs Spears and it's still there. It's there from 2021. And I have a podcast called LSQ which is like the phonetic version of my last name. And it's long form interviews with music artists and it's in all the different places you find podcasts. And then I also am a host on SIR on SiriusXMU and on the Spectrum every. Every damn day.

Lola Blanc (71:25)

How amazing.

Megan Elizabeth (71:26)

Thank you so much for joining us.

Jenny Eliscu (71:27)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Megan Elizabeth (71:30)

Wow. Wow. Wow indeed.

Lola Blanc (71:32)

Megan, I think that the question today is whether you would want to have the level of stardom and extreme celebrity that Britney Spears has had in her life.

Megan Elizabeth (71:48)

Would I join the cult of stardom?

Lola Blanc (71:50)

Yes.

Megan Elizabeth (71:51)

Absolutely. No.

Lola Blanc (71:53)

Really? What if this podcast got so big that it was the biggest podcast that had ever existed? You'd still say no?

Megan Elizabeth (72:02)

Well, I, I don't think a, a super big podcast is ever going to have the level of people freaking out that a pop star has. That would be what scares me. I do want to be successful, but I really value being invisible.

Lola Blanc (72:21)

Yeah. You know, my roommate and I were just talking about. She was just saying how much she loves going to the coffee shop and not getting dressed up. Cause it's like nobody can see her. And that's like such a nice anonymous feeling. And I do think we take that for granted as people who are not mega stars. Cause if you do to switch over and get to that point, like. Yeah. Then suddenly everyone has an opinion on any little thing. You said making a mistake is like, you're fucked.

Megan Elizabeth (72:48)

Yeah.

Lola Blanc (72:48)

You just don't get the same grace that you would give like a friend, you know? And yeah, just it's a level of scrutiny that seems really scary. And yeah, stalkers and like. But I also want to be successful, obviously. But I want to be successful, I think, like in a very specific way.

Megan Elizabeth (73:05)

Same. But yeah, it is that balance of like, I want to be successful. I want to live up to my potential. I also want to run my errands and not worry that somebody's going to take a picture of me and be like, she looks like shit.

Lola Blanc (73:23)

I also don't want that much power. That's too scary. If like, if like, yeah, thousands or God forbid, millions of people, like, listen to. To what you say and you. What if you say the wrong thing? What if you guide them in the wrong direction? That's terrifying. You know, like, having influence is. Is great for championing, you know, important issues, but then also, like, we're all imperfect and, like, what if I. What if I influenced wrong? Like, that's terrifying.

Megan Elizabeth (73:49)

Right? I guess that's important to remember, is that, you know, everybody's opinions are ever evolving. So even if you are a super fan of somebody, maybe, like, give them the room to change, and don't completely tie your identity to something that might not feel right to you or really anything.

Lola Blanc (74:07)

Any one thing.

Megan Elizabeth (74:07)

Anyone.

Lola Blanc (74:08)

Tying your identity to one single thing, that's the danger zone.

Megan Elizabeth (74:11)

Oh, there it is. There it is. Thank you.

Lola Blanc (74:14)

The danger zone. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Elizabeth (74:16)

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Always have a large group of celebrities that you are obsessed with.

Lola Blanc (74:21)

Yeah, yeah. Be a super fan of, like, 10 people and not just one.

Megan Elizabeth (74:28)

Y', all, thank you so much for spending another week with us. As always, remember to rate us five stars. Go get some merch if you want. Exactlyrightstore.com exactlyrightstore.com we say we don't want to be megastars, but we do want to see you wearing our merch. So we're having cognitive dissonance for the.

Lola Blanc (74:48)

Special club of our fans. The unique, small, special club.

Megan Elizabeth (74:52)

Yes. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags, and never, ever trust me.

Jenny Eliscu (75:02)

Bye.

Lola Blanc (75:04)

This has been an exactly right production.

Megan Elizabeth (75:06)

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

Lola Blanc (75:11)

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Megan Elizabeth (75:13)

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

Lola Blanc (75:18)

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

Megan Elizabeth (75:21)

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Lola Blanc (75:26)

You can find us on Instagram, USMePodcast or on TikTok. USMeCultPodcast.

Megan Elizabeth (75:31)

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an email@trustmepodmail.com Listen to Trust.

Lola Blanc (75:38)

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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Jenny Eliscu (75:51)

So good. Your bill, ladies.

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I got it. No, I got it.

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Megan Elizabeth (76:07)

Okay.

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Megan Elizabeth (76:25)

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