Liz Cameron, Part 1 - Jesus Morning Star aka JMS: A Bookstore, a Bible Study Group, and a Prophet on Earth

Summary

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Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Liz Cameron, Part 1 – Jesus Morning Star aka JMS: A Bookstore, a Bible Study Group, and a Prophet on Earth

Date: March 4, 2026
Guests: Liz Cameron (author of Cult Bride: How I Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free)
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth

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Overview

This episode launches a two-part conversation with Liz Cameron, who shares her firsthand account of being recruited into the JMS (Jesus Morning Star, aka Providence) cult, led by the so-called Pastor Joshua. Liz's story starts with a deceptively ordinary encounter in a bookstore, escalates into deep involvement via Bible study groups, and reveals the manipulative strategies employed to gain her trust. The episode explores the slow, seductive nature of indoctrination, the red flags she (and her family) missed, and how devotion can morph into delusion—especially when combined with a desire to belong and previous vulnerabilities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Recruitment Tactics: The Bookstore Encounter

• (15:40) Liz recalls how, at 18 and fresh out of high school, she was approached by a polite stranger in Borders bookstore who asked her to fill out a harmless-seeming cultural survey.
• The survey subtly steered toward religion, ending with questions about faith and prompting Liz—a devout Christian—to share her email for a follow-up.
• Liz Cameron:
  “She was very friendly...almost a little bit too nice...She introduced herself as an international student...and I wanted to be helpful.”
  (16:07)
• Liz initially ignores follow-up emails but, by sheer coincidence, bumps into another “student” running the same survey at a different mall. Flattery—being told her answers were “amazing”—entices her further.

Targeting Vulnerabilities

• (12:25–14:45) Liz describes her mental state at the time: recovering from anorexia, recently separated from her close-knit Christian school, and craving belonging.
• She points out how people-pleasing tendencies, insecurity, and recent destabilizing life events made her susceptible to group overtures.
• Liz Cameron:
  “I was incredibly insecure and I deeply, deeply wanted to be liked by my peers...and I think that really added to my anxiety.”
  (14:09)

Love Bombing and Emotional Dependence

• (27:43) Once involved, Liz is “love-bombed”—showered with attention, support, and validation, which created an intoxicating sense of belonging.
• The group intentionally built trust before introducing more bizarre doctrines or requests.
• Liz Cameron:
  “They absolutely treated me like the sun shone out of my ass...I had this huge sense of belonging, and so many people will describe the same experience when you first start being indoctrinated and recruited into a cult. It feels euphoric.”
  (27:43)

Indoctrination and Escalation

• (29:53–31:23) The group’s spiritual practices start off normal—Bible studies, prayer—but escalate in both frequency and extremity (e.g., waking up at 5 AM to pray daily).
• The intensity is justified as true devotion, causing Liz to compare her previously "lukewarm" Christian community to Chuck E. Cheese by contrast.
• Liz Cameron:
  “They started telling me they would get up early to pray...how early I didn’t...they didn’t disclose at the beginning...I started getting up at 5am...I was riding this spiritual, emotional high with this group...everything felt inspiring.”
  (31:58 – 33:02)
• Over time, Liz’s waking hours, language, and priorities shift to match group expectations, further isolating her from previous friendships and family.

Isolation from Family and Outside Influence

• The group leverages scripture to undermine Liz’s trust in her mother and old friends, framing any concern or critique as demonic influence.
• (53:27–56:59) Liz describes the heartbreak of losing her close relationship with her mother due to the cult’s wedge-driving tactics.
• Liz Cameron:
  “Once they succeed in breaking that sense of trust...it took months and months...It was really quite frightening."
  (56:59)

“Setting Conditions” and Sacrifice as Proof of Devotion

• (48:42–51:45) Group members are expected to demonstrate devotion through “setting conditions”—fasting, prayer marathons, and other acts that cause discomfort or pain.
• The rationale is that such suffering proves spiritual commitment.
• Liz Cameron:
  “There was another element...it was to harm or cause discomfort or pain to yourself in order to prove to God that you’re devoted and to feel Jesus’s pain.”
  (51:20)

The Introduction of Pastor Joshua

• Early on, "Pastor Joshua" is praised through stories and anecdotes that subtly escalate in implausibility (e.g., praying/fasting for 40 days, reading the Bible cover-to-cover a thousand times).
• Eventually, the group reveals he is not just their leader, but the living Messiah—the second coming of Jesus—and currently imprisoned in Korea on charges of sexual assault.
• Liz Cameron:
  “He’s essentially...Jesus 2.0...in prison. Not his fault. People are just really mean.”
  (58:14–58:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Coincidence is my gateway drug.” – Host Megan Elizabeth (23:10)
• “This isn’t a childhood experience...It’s very different.” – Host Effy, on adult indoctrination (09:18)
• “There was always, like, this empty chair...Later...they were like, This is Jesus’s chair.” – Liz Cameron (42:44)
• "Once all of this outside contact is sort of cut off, like you’re looking to them for the answers to everything...that’s the point at which the indoctrination becomes really fully strong." – Host Effy (56:33)
• “He wasn’t just in prison, he was in prison because he'd been convicted of sexual assault. And this is something they tell you and expect you to be cool with immediately.” – Host Effy (58:16)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 10:31–12:25 – Liz’s upbringing and early faith context
• 12:25–15:17 – Struggles with anorexia and vulnerability post-high school
• 15:40–19:54 – Bookstore encounter and initial recruitment tactics
• 19:57–23:02 – Second “chance” recruitment and the power of engineered coincidence
• 27:43–29:53 – Love-bombing and the creation of emotional dependence
• 29:53–33:02 – Escalation of religious practices (early rising, intensive Bible study)
• 48:42–51:45 – “Setting conditions,” or the push for sacrifice and discomfort
• 53:27–56:59 – Isolation from family (mother), breaking the trust
• 57:27–58:22 – Realization of having only one “source of truth,” and introduction of the leader as the Messiah

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Reflections and Parallels

Hosts Lola and Megan regularly draw parallels between Liz’s story and their own, noting how ordinary-seeming people and circumstances can mask the predatory nature of cults. The slow, methodical ramping of requirements and secrecy is a recurring theme.

• Host Megan Elizabeth: “You just needed some friends…maybe a sorority would have been great…But this kind of played into maybe some underlying, like, OCD eating stuff and just, like, control stuff.” (31:06)
• Host Effy: “Group of women studying something together 100% would get me.” (59:37)

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Final Thoughts (Part 1)

Liz’s account details the insidious, almost invisible steps from benign conversation to complete ideological control. The episode ends with the group’s ultimate reveal—that their “Pastor Joshua” is, in fact, the Messiah, and their efforts to shield Liz from outside reality were precisely to get her to accept this claim.

Note: Part 2 will continue the story, delving deeper into the cult leader’s criminal history, Liz’s potential role as a “cult bride,” and her journey to freedom.

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For anyone interested in understanding cult recruitment, mental manipulation, and how even the most ordinary-seeming interactions can draw people into extreme belief systems, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[Liz Cameron]

This is exactly right.

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[Bowen Yang]

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[Bowen Yang]

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[Matt Rogers]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Liz Cameron]

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[Host Effy]

Visit your nearby Lowe's on Colorado street in Kennewick.

[Liz Cameron]

Trust me do you trust me?

[Matt Rogers]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Liz Cameron]

Trust me, this is the truth, the only truth.

[Host Effy]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them. Cult welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults. Extreme belief and manipulation from two early risers who've actually experienced it.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Host Effy]

Today our guest is Liz Cameron. This is part one with her. She is a survivor of the JMS cult, AKA Jesus, Morning Star and author of Cult Bride How I Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free Free. So in part one today she's going to talk to us about how she was first approached by a woman in a bookstore to do a survey and how that survey turned into a Bible study group full of women who gained her trust and introduced her to their new and exciting church.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

She'll explain how they began encouraging her to spend more and more time together, get up earlier and earlier, and painted her old church, community and even family as people who weren't dedicated enough to Jesus. All as they slowly introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man they called Pastor Joshua.

[Host Effy]

And next week we will talk more about Pastor Joshua and his criminal history. And it is something. It's really something.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, this story is. It reaches like nightmare status for me.

[Host Effy]

So yes, and she does such an incredible job in the book and in this interview illustrating the like slow process of how that indoctrination happens, which is really, really important, imo. But before we get into it with Liz, Megan, what's your cultiest thing this week?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

My cultiest thing this week is that I'm obviously looking at the Epstein files. We record a little bit early these intros and outros, so who knows what will have happened by the time this actually comes out. But here's my opinion. Lola disagrees with it. So take it worth a grain of Megan. I think that this story is so huge and so disturbing that they are going to create a fake alien invasion. That's what I honestly think Lola has said from the beginning that they're going to start making AI cult leaders, which you've already seen left and right. I think people are going to start thinking AI is a higher power. Aliens are here that'll like fix everything. And I think it's all just gonna be possibly not real. I believe in aliens. Hopefully the real ones come.

[Host Effy]

But who, who's them? Who's saying they're arriving?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I just showed you Obama saying they're real, which I never thought I'd see.

[Host Effy]

To contextualize the clip, he's doing a rapid fire response to questions and he's saying aliens are real. They're not in Area 51. He also said he didn't see any evidence of them as in his presidency, but he believes that they must be out there somewhere.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Maybe it's not aliens, maybe it's just AI. I think that we need to just be very wary if something like that happens.

[Host Effy]

You mean if someone comes out and is like there's a higher power, look at this AI, there's alien. You think that that's just like a distraction?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Unless I'm in the alien ship flying around the galaxy, going through wormholes, I'm not gonna believe it. I'm gonna need that alien who lands the day the unredacted files come out to come hold me in its arms, and then I'll believe it.

[Liz Cameron]

Okay.

[Host Effy]

I don't disagree with the idea that there are a lot of powerful people who will do lots of things to distract the public from the Epstein files. I'm just skeptical of it being a fake alien invasion. I mean, listen. And I wouldn't put it past people, but I don't think that comment is evidence of that, personally.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

No, it's not. It's not. It's just this shit's freaking crazy. A lot of this just reminds me of what Liz was going through, where somebody very normal and human is attributing a lot of magical stuff to themselves, and it's very confusing. So that's what made me think of it.

[Liz Cameron]

What about you?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Host Effy]

I now know a new person who is claiming to be Jesus.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God. That's like seven people.

[Host Effy]

I think it's like, four, but. And these are all people I know so peripherally. And he's posting memes of AI images of him with Kanye and with, like, other powerful people as, like, they're gonna save the world. Clearly, he's just, like, having a mental health episode. And so, you know, I don't. I don't want to, like. I don't want to give. I don't want to say anything else about him specifically. But what's fascinating is just that there are people in his comments who clearly follow him. Like, it's not like, in a vacuum, like, a person's having a mental health episode. When I met him, he. Nothing seemed culty about him necessarily, but it seems like over time, while having these, you know, delusions about himself has garnered a following of people who really believe this. And there's a lot of Illuminati talk. You know what I mean? And, um, it's just fascinating because I. Cause I, like, I definitely talked about. There was one guy I did a music session with who was saying stuff like this and was, like, doing these, like, scam healings.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

But he doesn't believe they're scam healings. Correct. You think that he thinks that they're real?

[Host Effy]

He thinks that they're real.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

He's charging people for them. And a different person.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Yeah. Anyway, it's fascinating to watch how. And it makes me wonder, I guess, how many folks who start cults, like, truly maybe are not sociopathic, but are actually, like, just in a psychotic episode. A prolonged psychotic episode.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

You know, it's called the episode we did with Ann. Please Google our. Our Trust me episode we did with somebody named Ann, where she went through the exact same thing. And the human brain, when it's going through that, it uses similar images a lot of the time, and it's very interesting.

[Host Effy]

Yeah. And I went out with a guy recently who told me about a prolonged manic episode he had in which he experienced hyperreligiosity. And in my mind, for some reason, I think of manic episodes as being, like, a couple months maybe, but this was, like, a couple years. Like, I didn't. I guess it never occurred to me that it could really, like, last and then still emerge out of it. Anyway, it's. It's fascinating.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Wow, that's. I mean, poor guy.

[Host Effy]

Yeah. It's just such chaotic times that I suspect, like with COVID because so many people had mental health episodes during the COVID era, I suspect there's gonna be a wave of that right now as well. So if someone comes out and says, I had a vision and I'm the prophet, maybe be a little skeptical until things settle down societally.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes.

[Host Effy]

All right, let's talk to Liz now, shall we?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Shall we?

[Host Effy]

Welcome Liz Cameron to Trust Me. Thanks for joining us.

[Liz Cameron]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Host Effy]

We have, like, 1,000 questions for you today because of the book that you wrote called Cult, How I Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free, which for listeners, is about the Providence Cult or JMS or other names as well. Right?

[Liz Cameron]

So many. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Well, first of all, I just want to compliment your book, because I feel like you laid out the process of indoctrination so very well, where I, like, really understood each layer and each step, like, why you made the decision that you made the process of manipulation that was happening there, whether it was intentional on their parts or not. And so, yeah, you just really did a really great job of what it feels like to actually get indoctrinated, which is a really specific thing. It's not a childhood experience. It's very different.

[Liz Cameron]

Thank you. No, that. That means a lot. And I find any time that someone who has had experience in. In the kind of system that I have says that it felt real to them. I really just want other people to feel seen in the book that they, you know, like, those dynamics ring through for them. So that means a lot to hear.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And I mean. And the book is just fascinating. The story that we're about to get into is unbelievable.

[Host Effy]

Yep.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I Think. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Thank you.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

It's my trauma.

[Host Effy]

All right, well, so tell us a little bit, just about before this whole process actually begins. Like, what was your relationship to faith before you met members of the group?

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, so I grew up very Christian. Like, I tend to call it fundamentalist Christian because it was that kind of like, um. I don't know if you guys have heard about the Brownsville revival. I believe it started in the States, but it was kind of like this spiritual movement of people, you know, wave of the Holy Spirit, people getting saved. And I. I remember growing up, my parents would, you know, take, because it was this charismatic, evangelical kind of Protestant Christian church, and go on Sundays, and then we'd have Bible study groups and cell groups, and then, you know, they'd wrap us up in warm clothes and take us to the church so that they could have a late night, you know, prayer meeting and things like that. And it was. It was just. Yeah, it was a very involved Christian life. I obviously had no other point of reference. So I grew up feeling like, okay, this is how it is. This is who God is. And it was everything to me, because I didn't know anything else. And there was a lot of faith there, but there was also a lot of fear there. And in some ways, I'm like, what does faith mean? Without being afforded any other perspective on what might be real. Right. But with that being said, yeah, I strongly identified as a Christian, and as I wrote in my book, and it's kind of nauseating, but, like, I was like, I don't believe in religion. I have a relationship with Jesus. And so, yeah, I had a really strong faith. But that does render you a little bit more vulnerable in some ways, obviously, than, you know, coming into a group, being indoctrinated from the starting point of atheism, for example.

[Host Effy]

Right, totally.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I will also just point out that at this time, you were finding a lot more comfort in the other realms, maybe than the physical one. And there was just some stuff with food that was going on that I think is overarching in the story that I want to touch on at the top. Can you tell us a little bit about what was going on there?

[Liz Cameron]

Absolutely. So at the time that I met the group, I was 18, and I had just finished year 12, which we call college over here.

[Host Effy]

When you say here, you mean Australia?

[Liz Cameron]

Yes. Correct. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Sorry. For people who don't know the accent.

[Liz Cameron]

Okay.

[Host Effy]

Yes.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. Australia. Yeah, Canberra, Australia. So I. It's the capital, but a lot of people don't realize it's the Capital of Australia because it's very quiet little city. But yeah, so had finished school and I had, in my last year of school developed anorexia. So yeah, it was new to me, obviously it was new to my mum. The people in my life didn't necessarily know how to deal with it. No one knows how to deal with an eating disorder or mental illness. It's always just like you figure it out as you go. But I'd had a challenging year the year before and yeah, I think that had destabilize me in a lot of ways. But also the way that our schooling system is and it's a weird thing that's specific to Canberra and I think one other state in Australia is that we have years 11 and 12 separate from all the other schooling years. So I grew up in this very kind of small, sheltered Christian school for most of my schooling years. You know, very small classes, about 26 of us. And then I was plunged into a college for years 11 and 12 with so, so many students in one grade. Shockingly, not everyone was a Christian. In fact, most people weren't. It was a really wild experience for me and I actually loved it because it was, it really opened my mind to how beautiful life outside of church could be, but also like how rich and varied and how you could choose your own adventure. And it wasn't just this like cut and dried conservative kind of bubble. And so I think with that I was incredibly insecure and I deeply, deeply wanted to be liked by my peers, but I didn't know how to fit in because I come from this very sheltered background. And I think that really added to my anxiety. And it was. There were some toxic dynamics going on with the friends that I'd grown up with. And I think my way of coping with all of that was to try and restrict or control something in my life and that happened to be my food intake and my body and my exercise. And I didn't, it wasn't like I was trying to be skinny, I wasn't trying. You know, there's always something much deeper rooted with, with eating disorders. But that was the year before. And then my mom and I kind of fumbled our way through it together. We learned about it. She took me to a dietitian. I started, you know, learning how to eat again, which is, you know, a very weird concept, but that's what people with BDS go through. And then I was really much, much better by the time I met the group. But I still wasn't necessarily. Well, yeah, it was kind of a

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect storm with this day when you go to my personal favorite place on earth, Borders bookstore.

[Liz Cameron]

Do you have a Borders?

[Host Effy]

Oh, yeah, no, they're dead. They're gone.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, they're dead and gone.

[Host Effy]

Yeah, for years.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh my God, you guys. That moment of silence.

[Host Effy]

RIP bookstores.

[Liz Cameron]

I know.

[Host Effy]

Tell us about that first encounter and how you were approached.

[Liz Cameron]

So I was with a friend in Borders bookstore and we just caught up. It was my gap year. I was thinking I'll just take a year off and I'll work before I travel with some friends. And yeah, we were just browsing, window shopping, very casual hangout. As I was coming out of the store, we were both exiting. One of us was going to catch a bus and this lady kind of just pops out from behind one of the security things and she's just right in front of me.

[Host Effy]

Jump scare?

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, it was a little, a really polite jump scare. Yeah. And she was very friendly. She was just really, really nice, you know, but almost a little bit too nice, you know. But that's how you, that's how you approach strangers when you're going to ask them for a favor, I suppose. She introduced herself as an international student. She was studying Australian culture at a university and she had a clipboard and a pen and she said, you know, would you mind filling out this survey for me and helping me to add to my data set. And I wanted to be helpful and it's kind of that social obligation thing. When someone springs that kind of thing on you, you either say no thanks and you ignore them or you help them. But at that point in my life I was very much people pleasing tendencies, wanted to help. And I also like, and I really, I respect people who are bold enough to just ask for something from a stranger. Honestly, like, sure, yeah, yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I mean when I was 19, I could hardly get anywhere because I'd just be signing everybody's petition like being like, now somebody comes up to me and I just like drop kick their clipboard. Like, get away from me.

[Host Effy]

No, I still stop. And I read the whole thing too.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I know, I know. Yeah, I went there, I went the wrong direction. Why do you think that she approached you and not your friend?

[Liz Cameron]

I wish that there was a deep answer to this that I could give you. But really, as we'll talk about, I assume down the track, the nature of this group is it's very predatory and it's as I experienced it, it's set up to, or it was at the time in large part set up to groom women and a specific type of woman. And I think I had, for lack of a better word, the look that they were or he was going for. So I was obviously quite skinny, tall, very pale, conventionally good looking, very young. I mean, we're both young, obviously, but I just had a different body type. Right.

[Host Effy]

And so you, you do it. Right. Did you do the quiz initially?

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host Effy]

And she gets your contact info.

[Liz Cameron]

The way it happened was it was just a bunch of very basic questions. And so it was like, you know, what do you like to do in Australia? Like, what are your hobbies? Probably about 13 questions. Down at the bottom were a couple of questions about religion. And one was like, you know, are you religious? Next one was, if so, what religion? And I, you know, thought, oh, it's an opportunity to share my faith. And yeah, and I, I wrote down I'm Christian, but I don't see it as religion. And she took the, the pen and paperback from me and she's looking at the clipboard. She kind of skims it and then her eyes fall in the last question, she goes, oh, you're a Christian? And I was like, yeah, I am. And she asked if I would fill out another survey. She said, I'm also studying Australian faith and I would love to know more about your faith. Could I follow up with an email? Would you mind giving your email address and I'll ask you a few questions about your faith? And being a very good Christian girl, being trained to always share my faith at every opportunity, I was like, right, absolutely.

[Host Effy]

Like, such a good tactic.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Host Effy]

So, I mean, it's smart, you know, it is just a few more questions. Like it's not, it's no big deal. Just ask.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Or just answer a few more.

[Liz Cameron]

Exactly. Like you've already gotten this far. Like, it's, you know, you may as well. And also she gave me a bit of an out, which was cool because I was like, I don't want to have to fill out, you know, a whole other survey going somewhere. My friend, by the way, is being completely ignored. It's just standing there awkwardly while I have this interaction. And I, I was like, if, look, I can just give her my email address and then I can go my merry way and she'll follow up with something like, I don't need to talk to this person anymore.

[Host Effy]

Right.

[Liz Cameron]

But that was her in. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

And there was like a bit of a back and forth where you kind of like someone else reaches out, you kind of decide to stop engaging. But then can you kind of walk us through that just briefly?

[Liz Cameron]

It was just a bunch of unfortunate coincidences that helped me kind of get indoctrinated into this group. But basically she emailed me back, I filled out the survey, she gave me kind of an intense response. It was like, oh, wow, your faith is so pure. These answers are beautiful, faith related answers. And part of me was like, oh, maybe my answers were really great. And then there was another part of me that was like, she doesn't know me, this is weird. And it's via email, right? So it's very easy to just not respond and leave it at that. And so that's what I chose to do. Eventually we had a couple more back and forth interactions, but you know, I left it a long time between responses. I didn't want to keep up the interaction. But then I was on a different mall in my lunch break and I worked in retail at the time and I, I was browsing again and all of a sudden I turn around and there is this very friendly lady who wants to get me to do a survey for her. And she's a student and she's studying Australian culture and would I mind filling out some questions? And I was like, oh, I know exactly what this is. I filled this out before. And so I told her that and I was like, great, I don't have to do anything, I've already done this. And she asked my name and then I told her my name's Elizabeth. And immediately she was like, oh my God, my friend told me about you. She said your answers were amazing on the survey. Like, whoa, this is a lot. And again, there was that part of me, that very insecure, like 18 year old part of me being like, oh my God, am I that? Am I that amazing?

[Host Effy]

I mean, it would work on me now, by the way, if someone tells me I wrote something.

[Liz Cameron]

Well, yeah, yeah, it's to be fair,

[Host Effy]

flattery will take you everywhere, get you everywhere.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, 100%, like have my credit card. But also it was quite intense. But then there was this other part of me that was like, I've ran into these people twice now. And at that point in my life as well, you know, I was kind of looking to engage with my faith a bit more. I think I had quite a deep sense of guilt because in my last year in my schooling, I, I tried to break out of the little bubble that I grew up in and I became a drama kid, you know, made friends with everybody and it was really not what I was used to. And that was very overwhelming for me. But it was also one of the best times that I'd ever had, drinking, partying, like all of the, all of the typical teenage behaviors, clubbing. And aside from enjoying it, there was also this part of me that was like, this isn't aligned with my values. And in my gap year, I was like, I really should try and take steps to move towards my values again. And so I thought, gosh, this is quite a coincidence. You know, run into these women twice and they eventually shared that they were Christians too. And I was like, oh, maybe this is a bit of God trying to steer me towards people who will help me in that journey.

[Host Effy]

Right?

[Liz Cameron]

I think the illusion of coincidence has a whole lot to do with feeling like there's some kind of divine hand in this sort of thing.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Totally. Coincidence is my gateway drug.

[Liz Cameron]

Always.

[Host Effy]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Bowen Yang]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Host Effy]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Liz Cameron]

See full [e-mail] this is Matt Rogers

[Matt Rogers]

from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. What if your WI fi was more than just WI fi? What if your wifi made everything in your whole house just work together better?

[Matt Rogers]

Well, Xfinity WI fi pretty much does exactly that. It's powered by their best most elite high.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Matt Rogers]

And have you ever asked yourself, what if my wifi could keep watch over my kids for me? Well, probably not, because that's a weird thing to ask yourself, but Xfinity wifi has parenting skills, even if you sometimes forget yours. Xfinity's like, don't worry. I'll monitor the WI fi.

[Bowen Yang]

It's completely proactive, fixing issues before they even happen. Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI fi that's got your back.

[Matt Rogers]

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[Host Effy]

Can you explain the modeling recruitment piece of it? When did that come into play and what did they say it was?

[Liz Cameron]

So, basically, yes, I ended up getting to know them, and it was a bit further down the track, after I'd started doing Bible studies with them, that I ended up being introduced to the fact that they. They do modeling. And obviously, talking about it now, it's like, oh, come on. Like, this is. It's. It's ridiculous. It sounds so absurd. And especially knowing. Knowing the context now, it's really, really quite morbid. But basically, modeling was introduced as this way of giving glory to God, just the same as playing music for God or dancing for God or whatever else you do for God. Everything you do in life, you can do for God. And I liked that concept at the time. That appealed to me.

[Host Effy]

Including being beautiful, Just being. Exhibiting your beauty that God gave you.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. Just existing.

[Host Effy]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

And the physical kind of matching the inner. So if you're outwardly beautiful, you're inwardly beautiful. So it's a gift.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes.

[Host Effy]

Everyone knows that beautiful people are the best people.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

They're the closest to God.

[Liz Cameron]

And that's why I'm so close to God, all three of us, we were all born into this. Yeah. It's absolutely wild. And it really. Oh, God, it's almost embarrassing to talk about now, you know, that I. That I bought some of that. And I was like, oh, maybe, you know, again, young, naive. And also by the time they introduced this to me, I'd already started to kind of build trust in them. And they're very careful to create an emotional and relational dependence before they start telling you, like, weird shit. You know what I mean?

[Host Effy]

Exactly. I was going to ask about that. Sorry to interrupt, but not at all. You know, if you've already been doing Bible study with them, like, of course, you've then developed a trust and a rapport and, like, did they. Was there love bombing? Did they make you feel special? Like, yeah, she's nodding oh, oh, yeah, yeah,

[Liz Cameron]

yeah. And I could tell as we've talked, both of you get it. It's, it's, it's like a drug, like being love bombed. I mean, this is how, this is how, as we know, toxic one on one narcissistic relationships happen, abusive relationships happen. It is a big love bombing phase at the beginning, creating an emotional dependence. And the way I like to break it down in my book was it's actually a theory of change that's been, that was originally developed to apply to organization. How do you get your culture, your work culture to change? How do you get people to be invested? And it's been taken and applied to the context academically of cult and how people are broken down and then rebuilt in, in the way that the cult wants them to be ideologically, in terms of their identity, everything. So there's unfreezing and then there's change and then there's refreezing. And the unfreezing part is that destabilization. And so part of that is the love bombing. And they were, they absolutely treated me like the sun shone out of my ass. Like they were so kind, so sweet. And this is something that I didn't want to lean too much into in my book, but I think it might have came across the, the friendships that I grew up with and the bubble that I grew up in it. It really wasn't a bubble where I felt like I was necessarily like complimented or loved or appreciated or, and I'm, I'm. Words of affirmation, girly. And yeah, I, I, it was like so intoxicating to me that my little insecure heart was getting all of this reassurance and all of this love and, you know, all of this kindness. And I had this huge sense of belonging and, and so many people will describe the same experience when you first start being indoctrinated and recruited into a cult. It feels euphoric.

[Host Effy]

Yeah. And it's, it's all women too, right? Were there any men you interacted with?

[Liz Cameron]

There were some, but they weren't in the core group. And I met them much later on and it was a little strange to me. I was like, why is it only women? And becomes evident later why. But yeah, it was mostly women. It felt like this really safe community. And we studied the Bible together, we prayed together. I mean, what is threatening about that?

[Host Effy]

That would get me for sure.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

You guys didn't just pray together. You prayed together for hours and hours and hours. And you're not just reading the Bible. They're Making the Bible come alive for you, and it's making your old church look like kid looked like Chuck E. Cheese. Look like Chuck E. Cheese.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that. You put that so well. It's so true. It really started to make my old church feel completely juvenile. Like, when they first asked me to do the Bible studies, I was like, yes, I've been wanting to do something like this for a long time. They really exemplified the values that they said they had. And it wasn't just like, on a Sunday. They exemplified those values. It was every day they started telling me they would get up early to pray. How? Just how early? I didn't. They didn't disclose to me at the beginning, but of course they talked about Jesus and God like they were a really close personal friend rather than almost like an abstract concept that's there to help you if you're having a hard time. And I loved that. I wanted to be like, em. I was like, this is what I've been looking for. This is what I was asking God to help me find.

[Host Effy]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, looking back now, it's easy for me. And we have so many parallels in our lives. So I'm talking about us both to be like, you just needed some friends.

[Host Effy]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Maybe a sorority would have been great or, like, something, but this kind of, like, played into maybe some underlying, like, OCD eating stuff and just, like, control stuff. And now you're surrounded by these really nice women and Glory B.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes. Oh, my God. I probably just needed to join the local soccer team. I.

[Host Effy]

That's really.

[Liz Cameron]

I should.

[Host Effy]

When you said Glory B for a full second, I was like, is that like Cardi B?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Like, who was that in the she who is.

[Host Effy]

Okay, that is. That is a good rapper name. I'm just saying it is.

[Liz Cameron]

It is.

[Host Effy]

It sounds like maybe. Or from what I remember from reading as well, maybe the hours that you were getting up was kind of the first thing that was, like, a little bit off. Tell us about that.

[Liz Cameron]

So originally, it was introduced to me as, like, oh, well, we all get up quite early to pray. And, you know, it's kind of this time where it's just. You're dedicating the first part of your day to God, and that's really special. You know, before the busyness of the world kicks in, you're having this quiet moment with him, and it's an intentional effort. And I was like, that sounds awesome. I'm going to try it. And there was obviously part of me that was like, I want to impress these women. I want to show them that I'm invested as well, because I was that far along emotionally that I really. Yeah, I wanted to show them that I could emulate their behaviors and be a part of that group. They started by saying, oh, it's like 5:00am that we normally get up. That's what I'd recommend for you. It's like, I can, I can do that. So I started getting up at 5am to pray. And again, I was writing this kind of like spiritual, emotional high with this group. And everything felt inspiring to me. It was like the world was just in additional color, like hd. Everything was just amazing. God's hand was in everything.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

It's like being in love.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes. And that's what it felt like.

[Host Effy]

The infatuation phase. Totally. Yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

A hundred percent.

[Host Effy]

You write about how your friends were like, you should get sleep. Like, you should sleep, actually. And like, how did people in your life react to some of these behavioral. These early behavioral changes?

[Liz Cameron]

They thought I was behaving oddly, and I was. You know, and this is another thing, like, when you start getting indoctrinated by a group, your personality changes. Right. To fit in with that group. There are social norms that you slowly absorb and start adhering to. But then when you're interacting with someone who's not part of that group, they're like, what is going on? And so I think they started to notice behavioral changes in me at the beginning. And then when I told them about me getting up early, I confided in a friend. And this was at a point where I was a bit wobbly in terms of getting to know these women. I had moments where I was like, it wasn't all, like, amazing. And yes, I'm on board with everything. I really did take time to think about things. They took a lot of time to strategically bring me around. They were very careful about what they revealed to me and when. But there were still moments where I was like, this just feels a little bit much, you know, and. And I. I don't know what's right or normal anymore because their social norms are so divorced from these peoples. But, you know, they're so committed to God. You know, that's what the Bible says it takes. You know, it's. It's giving your all. And so they carefully crafted this view of, like, other Christians. To me, that was like, these people, you know, they're not that committed. They. They are kind of lukewarm and wishy washy and they'll act like Christians on Sunday and then they'll have a Completely different life all the other days. And, you know, is that the way you want to live? So already I was kind of judging my old friends and the old life and the old church. And so I didn't really trust that what they had to say about my experience with these women was accurate or whether it was informed by just a lukewarm faith. And they really also. They made it seem like there was Satan in everything else.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, there was Satan in everything else. Yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Effy]

Do you. Does that resonate with you, Megan?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

It all resonates with me. I mean, we did a podcast with Carolyn Costin, who's an eating disorder specialist, and she was talking about your. I'm using quotations for people listening, your eating disorder voice and how it just, like, takes you down this road where people no longer can talk to you because the voice in your head says back, like, they don't understand. They're not held to a high enough standard. They.

[Host Effy]

They're not disciplined.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

They're not disciplined, and they don't get it.

[Liz Cameron]

And I.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

They're now like. Like 2D. Like, nothing they say can reach me. And those are my safe people. So I need them to be better, not me to be worse.

[Liz Cameron]

Right? Yes. Yeah. Oh, my God, yes. No. That is such a good way of putting it. The more you say, the more you talk, the more I'm like, I need to know more about your story or both of your stories, really. Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

We're going to hang out with you for sure someday.

[Liz Cameron]

I hope so.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

But, yeah, it's real. And your mom is, like, such a wonderful person, and you guys have this wonderful relationship, and she's just kind of in her world getting her daughter out of this shaky physical condition, and you're coming back around, and then suddenly you're kind of disappearing all the time, and you don't. You don't trust her the same way anymore. And that's heartbreaking. It's really hard to read.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, it was. It was heartbreaking. Yeah. I became an absolute weirdo. And, you know, she's trying to figure out what is going on. Yeah. But I was. And it's wild because, you know, I think I put it in the book. The way that people would describe experiencing someone coming from jms, and the same is true for so many cultic groups or high control groups. Was that these people all had Cheshire cat smiles, which is a really eerie way of talking about, you know, but it's true, right?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Can you give us one?

[Liz Cameron]

Oh, Lord, we won't put it on socials. It's kind of just. It's like dead eyes. It's the dead eyes.

[Host Effy]

Is it like the movie Smile?

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. Yes.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Scary.

[Liz Cameron]

I love that movie.

[Host Effy]

The second one, they're going to be. Second one is really good.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. Although I found, like, sorry, tangent. I. I didn't get the end of that. I was like, this is. What am I supposed to make of this? I like a nice, neat ending.

[Host Effy]

Listen.

[Liz Cameron]

It's binary. Yeah. It's surreal.

[Host Effy]

It's streamlike.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Smile too. Sponsored by.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. What if your WI fi was more than just WI fi? What if your WI fi made everything in your whole house just work together better?

[Matt Rogers]

Well, Xfinity wifi pretty much does exactly that. It's powered by their best, most elite high performing tech.

[Bowen Yang]

Allow us to paint a very realistic example. Everyone in your house, everyone is on their devices at the exact same time. Gaming, working, swiping. Right? Because of course they are. And the finale of your favorite show of all time of the week is on at the exact same moment. Well, you can boost the wifi to your device with Xfinity.

[Matt Rogers]

And have you ever asked yourself, what if my wifi could keep watch over my kids for me? Well, probably not, because that's a weird thing to ask yourself. But Xfinity WiFi has parenting skills, even if you sometimes forget yours. Xfinity's like, don't worry, I'll monitor the WI fi.

[Bowen Yang]

It's completely proactive, fixing issues before they even happen. Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI fi that's got your back.

[Matt Rogers]

Xfinity. Imagine that.

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[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so they have weird smiles and you're kind of like in a, for lack of a better word, manic episode, getting love bombed by these people. Just being like, trying. People are like, hey, let's meet for coffee. And you're like, Jesus would love this. I'm. I'm making this up completely. But like, Jesus would love this chair. You know what I mean? Just everything spiritualized. And like, they're like, what the hell are you talking about?

[Liz Cameron]

Oh my God, the chair thing. Absolutely on the money. So, like, one of the things that was weird, like when I first walked into their apartment, when I first met up with them, the walls looked weirdly there. And I didn't know. I just thought, oh, they must have just moved in. In reality, they had taken down all of the pictures of like the leader and all the weird decor.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Host Effy]

Damn.

[Liz Cameron]

They were so careful to basically pretend that they were these people that they worked for months and months just thought they're regular Christians.

[Host Effy]

Which they admitted to you later on. Yeah, they admitted that they were hiding information from you on purpose on the

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

show later on when they're like, actually, this was all for you. So it gets, the story gets very weird, if it hasn't already. But so, yeah, you're like, oh, all these walls are bare. They just have this really sad Jesus picture hanging up. And. But they lived together and that seemed like a safe place for you to.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, totally. Looking back. Yeah, probably questionable, but wasn't very good at picking up on those. And I think also, like, I was taught to respect elders, respect people who are old. All these women were older than me. Respect people in the church and trust people in the church. Like, if you tell me you're a Christian, there's already an understanding that we have that you're a safe person. Right. That's certainly not how I see it nowadays.

[Host Effy]

But it's also hard when it's women. It's harder when it's women. We're taught to have more suspicion or trepidation about men. And when it's a group of older women, like, that seems.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God, a group of older women giving me attention.

[Host Effy]

That's all I want.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

All I want.

[Liz Cameron]

So there was always, like, this empty chair. No matter what everyone was doing, there was an empty chair, you know, whether it was, like, to the side or next to everybody else. And later, when the weird things were normal to me, they were like, this is Jesus's chair. This is where Jesus sits.

[Host Effy]

Oh, it's like pointing one out for the homies, but it's leaving a chair for Jesus.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Well, knowing me, I'd walk in and sit in that chair. I know.

[Liz Cameron]

You would be like, you're sitting on him.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Immediately kicked out.

[Host Effy]

So how and when were you introduced to the idea of Pastor Joshua before you ever actually, you know, met him? Yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

So that was during the Bible studies. And the way that they did it, again, really interesting. Like, they would bring in the person who they thought I needed to relate to the most or who would they watch me really closely, and they'd be like, what's she ready for now? Who would be best to deliver this one, this Bible study to her? Like, it was all very strategic, as I would find out once I was fully in. And they started planting these little, you know, tidbits, little anecdotes about this man called Pastor Joshua, who was a Christian pastor in South Korea. And they really looked up to and admired, and that's as much as they would tell me about him. But, you know, at the beginning, I was like, oh, wow, he sounds like a really lovely person. You know, he was giving things away to the poor. He was trying to get closer to Jesus prayer. And the anecdotes started to get a little bit more unhinged the further along we got. And I don't know if this is true for US Culture, but Australian culture, very much. Like, we have this tall poppy syndrome kind of vibe going on. So if anyone's, like, doing. Doing too much, we're like, sit down. Like, don't get a big head.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

No, we do not have that in America. We're like, go, go, go, go. Yeah, yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

Total opposite. Then we're kind of like, okay, it's getting weird now, and you're making all the rest of us feel bad, so stop.

[Host Effy]

Right?

[Liz Cameron]

I don't know what it is, but when I was hearing these stories about this guy, I'm like, why is he doing so much? Like, there was this little part of me that just like, he's too amazing. Like, he just chills. Exactly. Oh, my God, you're making all the rest of us look bad. And. And the examples of what he was doing was so out there towards the end that I was like, what? Who is this guy? Like, why did they keep bringing him up? They were telling me, you know, stories about how he went into a cave and prayed for 40 days to Jesus just to set a condition, which I imagine we'll talk about later, to show Jesus, like, how committed he was to seeing him and to being closer to

[Host Effy]

you and not just praying. That's annoying.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I would be annoyed by that.

[Host Effy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

Fasting. Yeah. He didn't bring snacks. Nothing. He wasn't even drinking water. No.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I would be like, chill 100.

[Liz Cameron]

I. I was like, I'm doing my best here, you know, I. Why? Stop it. Like, I was already getting up at 5am it was taking everything. And this guy's like, hasn't stopped praying for 40 days and 40 nights. Hasn't had a sip of water, you know, defying all the laws of, like. Yeah, allegedly. And then they were telling me about how he'd read the Bible like, a thousand times cover to cover. Okay. Joshua.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

You know what I mean?

[Liz Cameron]

And. And I did. I did calculate that later once I. Years after I came out, because I was like, it is a lot. Right? I think it was like something like 36 straight years of reading the Bible without sleep, food, or water.

[Host Effy]

Wow.

[Liz Cameron]

Or any breaks. Absolutely did not happen.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Liz Cameron]

It could be completely off, but it was a lot of years of straight reading the Bible. So. Yeah. And. And so I kept hearing about him, and I was really trying to be like, you know, because I would say, oh, wow, that's a lot. And they're like, well, you know, with God, anything's possible. I was like, fair. That's fair. You know, that's so true. And so it's like, I'm. Have a bit more faith here. He sounds amazing. I should really just be admiring this guy. But I still don't know why it's only him that they're bringing up.

[Host Effy]

Right.

[Liz Cameron]

And throughout learning this Bible study series, which, you know, as it turns out, is a real strategic course in, I guess, facilitating the brainwashing or indoctrination process. You know, it's slowly at the beginning. The Bible studies are very benign, but they're Delivered really inspiringly. It gives you a bit of a. Feels like there's like a fresh angle of the Bible. But it's nothing blasphemous. If you're used to, you know, growing up with the Bible and you have experience with it, it's like, oh, wow, that's a really cool way of thinking about it. I hadn't thought about that, but over time it just slowly shifts your perspective, you know, degree by degree, until you're being told something absolutely wild. But the sense that I had when I was moving through those Bible studies was I was so excited to do the next one because they were amazing. And you know, occasionally I'd be like, oh, that's, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. And I would challenge it, but they would explain it so well and they just had an answer for everything. And so the sense I had, especially as I started to grow closer to these women, spend more time with them, become a little bit more indoctrinated, was that there was some kind of secret that I couldn't quite grasp yet, and I desperately wanted to know what it was. And they were hinting towards something and, and I felt like every Bible study, we moved a little closer to it and there was this look in their eyes like, we'll tell you the truth soon. And I'm, I was, it was like living in a movie. I was like, what am I about to find out?

[Host Effy]

So mysterious. I'm so serious.

[Liz Cameron]

So anyway, can you tell a little

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

bit about setting conditions and what that was looking like more and more in your life?

[Venmo Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

So setting conditions, it was actually first, from memory, it was first introduced to me when I was starting to get up early to pray. So they were like, there are conditions that we set to sort of demonstrate to God that we're invested in this and we're putting you first. And you know, and the concept wasn't unfamiliar to me. Like I, I grown up in a church where, you know, people would fast and pray quite regularly for extended periods of time. Sometimes. Um, my father, he fasted every Sunday ever since the age of 30, up until about 40 years later to, you know, just so he could, he could pray. And it was just a water fast every Sunday. And I just grew up knowing that. And it's kind of honestly like the whole concept, it is, is a little messed up in general really, if you think about it. It's like, well, is God going to be like, you know, she's, she's praying, but she, she's not Hungry at all. And, you know, like, she's not having a bad time.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Well, it's like torture yourself so that you're also feeling the pain that Jesus felt.

[Host Effy]

I fasted. We fasted once a month. In mainstream Mormonism, that was like, very traditional.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

One Sunday a month to make yourself feel like, what he felt or.

[Host Effy]

I can't remember exactly now, but I think it was something like that. I think it's. I don't know if it was literally that, but it was like, to show your devotion in some capacity.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

And in this religion, you're trying to be more like Christ's and God's wife, not his child, you know, so you're not doing that dependent little, like, give me this, give me that. You're his partner who's like, I will carry this cross with you, for lack of a better word, because it's very literal.

[Liz Cameron]

Exactly. It is. Yeah, it is. And. And you're right. Like, the way that I learned down the track was, you know, this is why Christians, average, quote, unquote, Christians are not at the same level as we are. This is why we have to sacrifice more. As I got to know them better, I discovered, like, yeah, they often do fast and pray, but, you know, they set conditions around anything. They set conditions to read their Bible a certain amount of time or a certain amount of pages a day. They set conditions to share their faith or talk to. Wasn't sharing their faith, it was asking them to do a survey. A certain amount of people every day or every week. They set conditions to get up at a certain time to pray.

[Host Effy]

So it's just goals. It's just really ambitious, strict goals to advance yourself in the religion, basically.

[Liz Cameron]

Correct. Like, it really is just goal setting and they just rebranded it. But. But there was another element to it where it was like. Like you mentioned, Megan, it was. It was too harm or cause discomfort or pain to yourself in order to prove to God that you're devoted and to feel Jesus's pain.

[Host Effy]

And if you're not in pain, you're not being devoted enough, basically, if you're not suffering in some capacity.

[Liz Cameron]

Correct. Yeah. Yes.

[Host Effy]

That sounds super healthy.

[Liz Cameron]

It's sick. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I found it interesting that you had a trip to England planned, and this makes them really freak out. Can you tell us why?

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah. So part of the indoctrination process obviously involves a really high degree of immersion. And so I was spending more and more time with them. I was increasingly at their house, praying with them, going to church services, you know, doing the Bible studies, just have just hanging out. Like, I wanted to be around them more and more. They were pulling me in a lot closer. And I think that they were worried at the point that I was at, I hadn't learned enough that like, I hadn't learned the. The truth, the ultimate truth about their group. I wasn't. I don't think I was comfortably in from their perspective, that they felt like they could just let me go out into the world and I wouldn't be potentially pulled back into more life.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Right. And people are like telling you not to Google this church a lot. And so they don't want you accessing any outside information or outside perspectives at all. Because there's a lot of lies about our friend Joshua, who is, according to them, according to them, meditating and fasting all the time. And people are like, persecuting him.

[Host Effy]

So there has been this ongoing process of, like, despite not living on a compound or anything, they are slowly isolating you from your previous life and your family. And when your mom expressed your. To you concern about the group with some printouts. Tell us about what happened and how people reacted in the group.

[Liz Cameron]

My mom and I were always incredibly close, but they slowly started to drive a wedge between me and my mom. And they used Bible verses to support it. There was something along the lines of like, Christ hasn't come to bring peace, but a sword. You know, it's just separating father against

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

mother, daughter against very. The cult I was raised in that was like, arverse.

[Liz Cameron]

Right?

[Host Effy]

Really? Right.

[Liz Cameron]

Oh, you're familiar. Yes.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, that was.

[Host Effy]

And like, there's a holy war and you're gonna have to be divided from your loved ones, basically.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes.

[Host Effy]

In order to be.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

No human connection even compares to the one that you have in this other realm. So don't get too attached.

[Liz Cameron]

Absolutely. Like, there's this higher truth and the more that you're willing to separate yourself from the people that you should, according to the world, quote, unquote, love that the more devoted you are and. And the. The higher you'll go in your relationship with God, you know, the closer you'll get to him and fulfilling this, you know, holy divine purpose. And so, yeah, there was that impressed upon me and there were a whole host of factors, but it was also just like me slowly building trust in them and them being the people who got to define what faith was and meant. And by virtue of that fact, you know, my mum wasn't anymore because she didn't have that higher truth that I had.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Liz Cameron]

So it was hard for me because I was used to sharing everything with her. When she tells this story from her perspective, what it was like for her was she was always used to us having a completely transparent, open relationship where I would share everything with her and vice versa, you know, and it took her a long time to realize that I stopped telling the truth at some point. And, you know, it wasn't out of malice. It was out of this. She wouldn't understand the times that I did try and share things with her about what I was learning. She. She did kind of, and rightly so. She got her back up a little bit, you know, she was like, what do you mean? Why are they telling you this? This is very intense. Like, I'm seeing you go over there all the time. It's full on, you know, why are they so much better than your old church? Like, what's so different about them? And at a certain point, I was like, well, she just doesn't get it. And I shared this with the group at the time, and they were like, look, it's really common because Satan will always try to use those closest to you to get you to stop pursuing what God wants you to pursue. That's how he gets to you. And I was like, that makes sense,

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

I guess, because what a nightmare. What a nightmare.

[Liz Cameron]

So.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

So your mom handed you a. A bunch of papers that was printed out, evidence from the Internet, of, like, this is a cult, and your immediate reaction was, get that away from me. You ran away, locked the door.

[Host Effy]

It's also.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

It's all such a metaphor, you know, just like, lock the door, and said, stay away from me.

[Liz Cameron]

And.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

And that's when your family kind of realizes we've lost a grip on her.

[Liz Cameron]

Yes.

[Host Effy]

So then you have one single source of truth. Once all of this outside contact is sort of cut off, like you're looking to them for the answers to everything. What is the right way to show my faith? What is the right way to eat? What is the right way to. The time to wake up? What you know, everything. And that's when it starts, it seems, from the outside. That's the point at which the indoctrination becomes really fully strong. Once you're cut off from everyone in your old self.

[Liz Cameron]

Effy. Absolutely. Once they succeed in breaking that sense of trust, you know, and it's a long process. Like, it took months. It. It took months and months. And I. I really struggled with it at first because it was especially with Mum, because I was like, I just miss being able to share everything with her, but I can't. And there's something more important than me, so I have to be faithful to what I'm learning. And, yeah, it was really quite frightening.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Liz Cameron]

I was only 18, you know, I mean.

[Host Effy]

And so they've done this whole. They've laid the groundwork. They've, like, built this foundation to give you the next piece of information that if they had told you from the beginning, you would have run away screaming, absolutely no quiz.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Just straight up at the mall, walked straight up to you and said this bet. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

But at this point, now you're fully in. You're you. You're not looking to other people in your life for answers. So now is the perfect time to tell you that Pastor Joshua, what, was

[Liz Cameron]

basically the Messiah of the second coming.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

He's Jesus.

[Liz Cameron]

He's essentially. Yeah, He's. He's Jesus v2, like 2.0.

[Host Effy]

And he's alive in Korea.

[Liz Cameron]

Correct.

[Host Effy]

In prison.

[Liz Cameron]

In prison. Not his fault. People are just really mean. Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

People are persecuting.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Effy]

And not only was Pastor Joshua, he wasn't just in prison, he was in prison because he'd been convicted of sexual assault. And this is something they tell you and expect you to be cool with immediately. And we are going to leave part one here right now so we can get into how you were chosen to potentially be a bride of this man. Come back next week and hear the craziness that is part two. As we learn more about Pastor Joshua and his history and his claims and his real name. Megan, the time has come to ask you the question, would you join Jesus Morning Star under these same circumstances?

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Well, it's ironic because once you hear part two, if they would have just started me off with the secret, I think I would have joined. I wouldn't have joined the way Liz joined because it was very, like, really long Bible studies and just slow burn type of things that I'm too ADHD to sit through. But if they would have just thrown me into the third act, I might be a little more inclined. And you'll have to listen to part two to realize what that actually is.

[Liz Cameron]

All right.

[Host Effy]

I think in general, while a Bible study group is not my particular area, that I would be susceptible. 2. I do think the group of women studying something together 100% would. Would get me, especially if it's like anything. I'm interested in a group of older women being like, we can teach you. Look, we're. We're studying, we're exploring this topic together, and we're diving in in a way you've never done before. Like that's my fucking dream, so I

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

would definitely be in for that. Getting cool friends.

[Host Effy]

Totally.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

There I am. I'm in.

[Liz Cameron]

Yeah.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

If I think about it that way, 100%. Yeah.

[Host Effy]

All right, well stay tuned next week to see where it all goes.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, rate us five stars too. And remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never

[Host Effy]

ever trust Trust me.

[Liz Cameron]

Bye.

[Host Effy]

This has been an exactly right production

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Jiha Lee.

[Host Effy]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley,

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Host Effy]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Host Effy]

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMePodcast or on TikTok@TrustMeCultPodcast.

[Host Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Host Effy]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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