Lyndsey Burr - Producing America’s Next Top Model

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Lyndsey Burr – Producing America’s Next Top Model

Air Date: April 29, 2026
Host: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Lindsay Burr, Reality TV Producer (Seasons 2–10, 23 of America’s Next Top Model)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Lola and Megan interview Lindsay Burr, a longtime reality television producer known primarily for her work on “America’s Next Top Model” (ANTM). The conversation explores the behind-the-scenes culture of early reality TV, the ethically questionable decisions made in the rush to innovate, and the impacts on cast and crew. They dig into controversial moments on ANTM, the industry’s shifting attitudes about duty of care, and insights into Tyra Banks’ leadership. The discussion is candid, funny, and pointed, giving listeners a unique look at the cost and legacy of a genre-defining show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lindsay Burr’s Role and Reality TV’s Early “Wild West” Days

[11:30–13:20]

• Lindsay recounts how she began in reality TV during its fledgling era after finding film “boring.”
• Her career trajectory: PA to supervising producer over seasons 2–10 & 23 of ANTM.
• Quote (Lindsay Burr, 12:00):
  “Reality TV was new, and no one kind of knew what it was. It was around 2002, 2003...it was the wild West. It was so boring. Features were boring.”
• NDAs at ANTM were primarily to prevent winner leaks due to rampant gambling on outcomes in the early 2000s—not to suppress exposés.

2. Casting Psychology, Duty of Care, and Early Reality TV Dynamics

[16:01–18:34]

• ANTM sought an entertaining “ensemble,” balancing strong, loud personalities with shy or insecure contestants.
• Psychologists were on set to assess if contestants could handle stress, but major focus was on production’s protection, not contestant well-being.
• Mental health repercussions weren’t widely considered back then, but Lindsay says this has since evolved.
• Quote (Lindsay Burr, 18:13):
  “The responsibility of really making sure...just making sure people are taken care of. And I don't know how aware we were of it then. I was a kid, too, but I know now as a producer in my 40s, that's like, the utmost thing for me.”

3. Lack of Social Media and Influence on Motivation

[18:34–19:33]

• Contestants joined ANTM for a real shot at modeling—there were no influencers or built-in social followings as incentives.
• “You got to just trust these people to do me solid. Which wasn’t always the case.” (Lindsay)

4. Contestant Experiences and Broader Modeling Industry Context

[19:36–22:24]

• Humorous, cautionary tales from Lola and Megan about being scouted (or hustled) as potential models.
• Widespread sketchiness in modeling and early-2000s culture of pursuing—and exploiting—modeling dreams.
• Quote (Lola Blanc, 22:12):
  “I cannot tell you how many weird photo shoots I did in random locations with weird men one-on-one as an 18, 19, 20 year old.”

5. Evolution of Challenges: From Bold to Problematic

[24:52–29:57]

• Lindsay describes show escalation: each season’s challenges had to outdo the last for audience retention, often crossing ethical lines.
• Notorious examples:
  • Racial “change your race”/blackface photo shoots (happened twice).
  • Tightrope walks at American Apparel warehouse, swimming pool/hypothermia incidents, posing with unhoused people.
• Quote (Lindsay Burr, 26:49):
  “I wish I can take a time machine back to wherever that photo shoot was, because I know I was present for it and be like, this just seems really stupid...But you didn't, because at the time, you were probably just like...'whatever justification they've made for this, it's totally right. We can't do anything wrong.'"
• Looking back, Lindsay expresses deep regret over some challenges, including one where a contestant mourning a friend was told to pose in an empty grave:
  • Quote (Lindsay Burr, 30:58):
    “If I could go back now and use my voice, I mean, I have no problem speaking up about things now, but...at the time, I was just like, okay, this is. Being a model is going to be really tough and sometimes you're going to have to do things that are uncomfortable...But it was so dumb.”

6. Life on Set: Producers & Contestant Dynamics

[33:06–38:32]

• Lindsay often played “cheerleader” to eliminated contestants and needed psychological support herself.
• Grueling, under-fed working conditions extended to crew as much as cast.
• Crew and contestants rarely slept during international shoots—a point Lindsay illustrates with the “Lost models in Bangkok” story (37:02), where contestants snuck out while being sequestered.
• Memorable moment:
  “I can't be in two places at once. Like, what do you want me to do?” (Lindsay, 37:19, relaying a confrontation with executive producer Ken Mok over two missing contestants)

7. Reality TV as Cult—For Cast, Crew, and Audience

[40:12–42:17]

• Reality show environments foster “cult-like” intensity: sacrifice, groupthink, insular focus, and fanatical audiences (e.g., Bachelor Nation).
• ANTM production teams lived, breathed, and “slept” the show—a crew cult as much as a contestant one.
• Quote (Lindsay Burr, 42:17):
  “In all of these shows, you create the playground...you’re not missing as a story producer, you’re not missing the things that affect the story.”

8. Tyra Banks: Persona, Perfectionism, Power

[46:38–51:00]

• Tyra was intensely private, but could “turn on” instantly for the camera.
• Funny moment & insider story:
  Tyra wanted to be cut out of judging in an episode because she didn’t like her eyelashes (47:28). Months of editorial work went into trying to appease her—ultimately, it took top network leadership (Les Moonves) to tell her “no.” Eventually they added an ADR line blaming her lashes on another shoot.
• Quote:
  “She is the most, like, person who can just turn on I have ever met in my entire life. … I can almost hear the sound effect that goes with her powering on and then power off.” (Lindsay, 50:27)

9. Perpetuating Cycles & Attempts at Change

[51:53–54:02]

• Tyra worked hard to break the modeling industry’s exclusivity but also perpetuated its harshness.
• Megan: “She was probably treated so cruelly that some of these actions...she didn’t even realize were perpetuating the cycle.”

10. How Modern Reality TV Is More Ethical

[61:14–64:00]

• Duty of care is taken seriously now, with robust psychological support and aftercare for participants.
• Lindsay personally stays in touch, offers real support, and prioritizes the happiness and well-being of contestants.
• Quote (Lindsay Burr, 61:27):
  “It's really important for me as a producer to...have a responsibility to the people who sign up to share their stories...every person I ever cast has my actual personal Number.”

11. Editing, Contracts, and Storytelling Ethics

[64:25–66:42]

• Lola recounts being wary of reality TV contracts that allow producers to edit “you” into anything.
• Lindsay reassures: while contracts give broad rights for editing, on her projects, “I will never make you who you aren’t, but I can turn the volume up on who you are.”
• The editing process intends to represent the cast honestly—even if conflicts are heightened for TV.

12. Lasting Impact, Crew Culture, and Lindsay’s New Project

[68:59–70:44]

• The ANTM crew developed deep bonds—many remain active in TV and keep in touch, almost like a “cult alumni.”
• Lindsay plugs her new podcast with her husband, “Donor Dad,” about the wild journey of discovering her husband’s 27+ biological children, created with support from Karamo (of Queer Eye).

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On NDAs and Reality TV Gambling:
  “People get so...I love telling this story because I know there's a lot of former contestants out there saying they made us sign a $5 million NDA...Back in the early 2000s, there was a lot of illegal gambling around reality shows.” — Lindsay Burr [12:49]

• On Regretful Challenges:
  “There were a lot of bad ones…like, get in the empty grave and take a picture. And I remember feeling really icky about that.” — Lindsay Burr [30:58]

• On Tyra’s Demands:
  “Tyra asked to be cut out of judging because she didn’t like how her eyelashes looked…The host of the show!” — Lindsay Burr [47:28]

• On Cult Mentality in Reality TV:
  “Reality TV is a cult, right? I mean, it is.” — Lindsay Burr [40:22]

• On Modern Duty of Care:
  “There's always aftercare, there's site care…every person I ever cast has my actual personal Number. So I'm putting my name and my reputation on the line with them.” — Lindsay Burr [61:27]

• On Editing Ethics:
  “I will never make you who you aren’t. … But I can turn the volume up on who you are.” — Lindsay Burr [64:31]

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Memorable/Lighthearted Moments

• Lost Models in Bangkok:
  Lindsay’s recounting of missing contestants abroad and the subsequent panic—“Lost models in Bangkok”—is a highlight of the episode ([37:02–38:32]).

• Smizing & Personal Modeling Stories:
  All three women joke about their “smize” prowess and share cringey/memorable early modeling experiences ([20:57–22:24], [60:46–61:12]).

• Tyra’s On/Off Switch:
  Lindsay’s description of Tyra’s “powering on and off”—almost robotic—is equal parts awe and amusement ([50:52]).

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Reflections and Takeaways

• Early reality TV was a high-stakes, under-regulated environment prone to groupthink and questionable ethics—often more concerned with spectacle than safety.
• Cast welfare was not prioritized in ANTM’s heyday; psychological evaluations were more about managing risk to the show. Today, the industry generally takes duty of care seriously, though problems remain.
• Editing is powerful, but on Lindsay’s projects, authenticity is valued; contract language is alarming but often functions to allow for necessary episode condensing rather than character assassination.
• Tyra Banks is credited with breaking new ground and suffering for her difference as a model but also, perhaps unconsciously, replicating harsh industry patterns on her own show.
• Crew culture was its own insular, sometimes cultic, community—bonded by shared struggle and achievement.
• Change is ongoing: Shows like ANTM probably wouldn't be made the same way now. Successful, ethical reality production requires critical reflection and is evolving to prioritize participant well-being and more nuanced storytelling.

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Suggested Next Steps for Listeners

• Check out Lindsay Burr’s new podcast “Donor Dad,” on the unique culture of sperm donation and reconnection.
• Revisit “America’s Next Top Model” and stream “Reality Check”—the new docuseries about the show.
• Follow “Trust Me” for more first-person accounts on cults and manipulation.

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For more on cults, groupthink, and unscripted TV, follow @trustmepodcast on Instagram and @trustmecultpodcast on TikTok.

Transcript

[Lindsay Burr]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Want to lend a hand?

[Lola Blanc]

Explore Garnier's partnership with the National park

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[Lindsay Burr]

support our national parks@garnier USA.com NPF support

[Public Sponsor]

for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back backtested against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures

[Lindsay Burr]

Trust me

[Public Sponsor]

do you trust me? Would I ever lead you astray?

[Lindsay Burr]

Trust me, this is the truth.

[Public Sponsor]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me the podcast about cults extreme belief and manipulation from two top models have actually experienced it. I am Top Model Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Top Model Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And this week these two top models are joined by Lindsay Burr, longtime reality television producer who worked on of course America's Next Top Model for years. She's going to join us to talk about her experiences working on the now controversial hit competition show. She'll tell us what the team looked for when casting some of the more problematic challenges the show used and the time she lost the models in Thailand.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She'll talk about how it was the Wild west of reality TV with every show in the early days trying to outdo each other and often not considering. Considering the consequences for the people on the show and Tyra's own arc and whether she was perpetuating the harmful cycle she'd been trying to stop. Plus, why Lindsay thinks unscripted television has hopefully been getting more ethical.

[Lola Blanc]

All that and more right after Megan tells me her cultiest thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also, let's just take a moment to, like, say how much we love Lindsay

[Lola Blanc]

Barr because, oh, I'm obsessed with her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah. Best human alive. Yeah. Okay. So mine kind of ties into reality television, and it came to me like a nightmare last night when I went to go get a midnight snack at the grocery store. Okay, I'm looking in the aisle. Is there more snacks to be had? Should I get a Snickers? Should I get whatever? Please tell me why the hell. On the COVID of People magazine, there's another Duggar boy. Room birth, 19,000 kids and counting. In jail for molesting a kid.

[Lola Blanc]

And for folks who don't know. So this. This is now the second member of this family who has. I don't know who's been convicted or where the trials are at, but who has been accused, slash, potentially convicted of child molestation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Correct. And even his wife was briefly put in jail. Oh, wow, that's. Yeah, that's rare. I was flipping through it as fast as I could before they got to me because I'm not gonna buy People magazine because it's too much money.

[Lola Blanc]

That's. Why are they $40 now?

[Lindsay Burr]

But also, I wanted more candy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The Internet's free, but. Yeah, I mean, I. I don't wanna make generalizations. And of course, maybe something was happening inside of their family. There's a million things that could be the answer. But the truth of the matter is that so often in these cultures of purity and perfection, you know, I remember reading with their older son, Josh Duggar, who was in prison for a very long time because the stuff he was doing is horrific. The stuff he was looking at is horrific. And, you know, they didn't. They, like, brought him to the police station to kind of cosplay him getting in trouble. But the police were their friends, and he was never really going to get in trouble. And, you know, there was always this kind of like, keep a lid on it. So we're still good examples to the outside world, which I've seen reflected in my own community growing up of, like, you know, it's. It's kind of on the victims to keep it quiet because you don't want to set a bad. You don't want to make it look like there's any problems in the kingdom.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right, right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I don't love it. Makes me sick. Makes me sad. And I'm so sick and full from all the chocolate I ate.

[Lola Blanc]

That's, yeah, totally related. Thoughts?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah,

[Lola Blanc]

yeah, no, I mean the fact that more than one person being committing those crimes in the same family, something is going on for sure. But like that's fucking sucks. I mean, but there's nothing else to say about it. It just sucks.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's awful. Yeah, it's, it, it really sucks. To put it mildly. And I would love to do an episode, another episode on the Duggars. Bardi done one with Jill Duggar. Please go take a look at it. Because she was telling us stuff that I did not know, like she was coerced into filming her births. She didn't get really a penny of any money from being on the show and she had a really interesting insight into what she'd been through. So anyway, that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you? What's yours?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, so our guest next week probably I think is Gnomes by Sline from the Trust Me docu series. And um, Gnomes has. This is a just a bit of cute, sweet news. Gnomes has gone public with her new relationship. She is dating a boy who is Warren Jeff's son, who as soon as

[Megan Elizabeth]

he was, isn't every guy Warren Jeff's son at this point.

[Lola Blanc]

That's true. As soon as he turned 18, left the family, changed his name, you know, wanted nothing to do with that lifestyle. And now the two of them have gone public and they're this like post polygamy power couple, which is just so adorable.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I never thought I would hear that sentence. And I love it. I love it. I'm so excited for that episode. If anybody hasn't watched the Trust Me doc with Lola's mom yet on Netflix, go post haste and watch it now. Post haste.

[Lola Blanc]

Post haste. No one says post haste anymore.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know. And our old producer Steve, who we are obsessed with, just said he loved it. And he had accidentally only watched the last episode thinking that it was the entire thing. So he thought it was like an hour long docu series. And he still loved it. But now he has to go back to the beginning.

[Lola Blanc]

Don't do what he did. Start from the beginning.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Don't do what he did four episodes. And then I, I, I, yeah, the, the conversation with her is just like transfixing.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, we'll, we'll, we'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there next week, next week. But in the meantime we have this week's guest and she is so funny and she has so much insight into the world of reality tv. And y' all should listen now, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think so. Let's talk to one of my favorite people, Lindsay Burr.

[Public Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Lindsay Burr to Trust me. Thank you for being with us.

[Lindsay Burr]

Awesome. Thank you, guys. I'm excited you're here because you were

[Lola Blanc]

a producer on famed, maybe potentially we could say infamous TV show America's Next Top Model. But you've also had a long career of working in reality tv. Do you want to give us some of your resume?

[Lindsay Burr]

Sure. I love it. Yeah. I wanted to do film when I came here, and then it was like the wild West. It was so boring. Features were boring. Like, they had a million people standing around doing one job. And I was like, people do this. I'm bored. And it was like reality TV was new, and no one kind of knew what it was. It was around 2002, 2003. And so, yeah, I got my first job was a PA On Top Model, moved all the way up to supervising producer on it. I don't know if that's braggable these

[Lola Blanc]

days or not, but how many seasons?

[Lindsay Burr]

I did seasons two through 10, and then I went back for season 23 when Rita Ora was the host, which is a whole nother bag.

[Lola Blanc]

That's a lot of chips. A lot of seasons, and so many things. A lot of things that, you know,

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm shocked they didn't make you sign an NDA.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, no, I signed an NDA.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So how are you, like, able to talk about that?

[Lindsay Burr]

Like, the NDA was really about, like, the winner who won because. And I. People get so. I love telling this story because I know there's a lot of former contestants out there saying they made us sign a $5 million NDA. Well, the entire crew signed this because back in the early 2000s, there was a lot of illegal gambling around reality shows.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, interesting.

[Lindsay Burr]

And so it was that in ratings, we didn't have, you know, there were, like, what, 10 channels, you know. Right. And so if you knew the winner, people wouldn't want to watch it. So there were high stakes in keeping it under wraps. And I was so cuckoo about It. I remember my mom would be like, who won? And I was like, mom, I know you birthed me, but I cannot tell you. So you didn't tell her? No, I would never tell my mom. She would go golfing and tell all her friends. So I liked my job. So ye. So there is an NDA. I think we're at the point where everyone's talking about top models. So.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

[Lola Blanc]

So if anyone for some reason has not watched the show, can you just remind us the premise, how it works?

[Lindsay Burr]

So it was created, this is a little interesting fact. It was created by Kenya Barris, actually, with Tyra, who created, I think, Blackish.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Lindsay Burr]

And he is like a silent partner in it. And Tyra thought, like, what if I can take Real World, which was really one of the biggest reality shows of the time, and then make it like a competition show, which were just getting their legs in tv. Right. And so she's like, what if I can combine those two formats and make it about modeling? So the girls live in a house and then there's a weekly elimination. And, um. And so, yeah, so it's aspiring models who want to be America's Next Top Model, doing what became crazier and crazier challenges each week to win that title. And yeah, it was crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, like, where. Where to even begin? I'm like, I want to talk about the challenges, but I also want to talk about the girls.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, and just, you know, if you have a bunch of girls in a house where they all want something very deeply to fulfill their needs and their dream, it's kind of just like a very cult.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Setup. And you have this, you know. Well, not actually a cult. And Tyra, not actually a cult leader.

[Lola Blanc]

Not a literal cult leader.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We do have this figurehead at the forefront. So let's jump into the dynamics because. Yeah. Where do you wanna start with that?

[Lola Blanc]

Nice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Megan, where do you wanna start with that?

[Lola Blanc]

I guess. Okay. Talk about the contestants. Was there anything that was looked for personality wise, aside from just like the physical sting?

[Lindsay Burr]

Well, it's funny, when I did it, I was so young. I was the same age as a lot of these young women at the time. We were in our early 20s. And yeah, there's a lot of. We had a psychologist on board. Like all shows do you get psych tested to make sure you can handle it and all of that. But it's also. You learn a lot about people in psych testing. But it was like, I think the biggest things we were looking for is an ensemble, like, they were looking for, like, who is gonna be the foils? Like, if you're gonna have a very gregarious personality, who's gonna not get along with that? And I can think of many examples in the casting of multiple seasons on that. But I think the overall arching thing was. I mean, there were a lot of things where girls who wanted to get out of their circumstances, you know, like, I think early reality tv, especially every show, is the ultimate test of what won't people do, you know, for their dream. And I think Top Model was especially a big one in, like, let's take it as far as we can go and look at the repercussions of it now. So, yeah, I think it was young women who were impressionable, who. There were a lot of different types of personalities. We obviously had a lot of women who were strong. Lisa d' Amato was always a strong human, loud. But then there were the shy, quiet ones, the ones who were told they couldn't do it. And then a casting person saw them in a mall and said they could. You know, there were all different personalities. But, yeah, there was a testing of it to see. And I think that was really mostly for the protection of, you know, the show and for the people going on it, because it is such a high stress. I mean, not particularly this show, but I've done other shows where people, you know, like, actual suicide is something that is considered, like, if people lose or they don't get the opportunity.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lindsay Burr]

So the responsibility of really making sure. We call it duty of care, just making sure people are taken care of. And I don't know how aware we were of it then. I was a kid, too, but I know now as a producer in my 40s, that's like, the utmost thing for me.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I'm surprised there are even worse psychologists back then that. Actually, I wouldn't have expected that that would have been the case. Yeah, also just like, landscape wise, like, now reality show, like, we have influencers, we have social media. You go on a reality show, you know, you kind of know you're gonna get followers if you go on. But at the time, it was like American Idol came out, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

This was like, how I will get out of my.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, Kelly Clarkson became a star. Like, a bona fide star. And, yeah, it was like, this was how you will actually achieve your dream, not just, like, become an influencer.

[Lindsay Burr]

There wasn't the phone. There wasn't Instagram. It was the original. I say, like, these people on these shows paved the way for influencers for. And now people have so much more control over their story and their brand. That wasn't an option then. Like, it was. I gotta just trust these people to. To. To do me solid. Yeah. So.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

Which wasn't always the case. No, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I wanna. I wanna tell you guys a little side story about when I was in college and a man approached me and said, you should be a model. And I was like, of course I should.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And this should have been my first warning sign. He was like, you know what first caught me was your butt. And that is not a thing that you should write home about about me. Like, I've never gotten that compliment before,

[Lindsay Burr]

but I was like a strange man just saying, your butt.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I was like, okay. And he was like, let's do a photo shoot. And I was like, okay, Jacques. And so then he wants to meet at this strange place. Still no warning bells for me. I'm like, let's go. But what saved me is I brought all of my friends because I was like, they're super hot.

[Lindsay Burr]

They should also be models. And he was like, what? And I was like, oh, my God,

[Megan Elizabeth]

we're all gonna be models. So, like, they're hot too. Just, like, take a picture of us and then, like, send it to. I don't know, just send it in. He'll send it in. And I'll never forget the look on this man's face. It was like, obviously going to take horrible advantage of me and the plot foiled and. But, you know, but every, like, family picture we have from this time period, because of Top Model, I'm like, I'm posing.

[Lola Blanc]

You're smizing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm smizing.

[Lindsay Burr]

You're smizing. I mean, it was influence culture.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I was going to be discovered.

[Lindsay Burr]

And I.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And, like, I ruined every family picture with this look that I was getting.

[Lindsay Burr]

Your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just kind of like sucking in my.

[Lola Blanc]

Or did your family ruin it because they weren't also smizing?

[Lindsay Burr]

What?

[Megan Elizabeth]

My family ruined it?

[Lola Blanc]

I blame your parents.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's so weird, though. But Top Model truly is, like, a micro. I've never been in the fashion industry. I don't know, but it just, like, I do think it is a micro. Like, look at what that world would be, like, intensified by television producers. But, I mean, I imagine the people we were casting would be the same people that when a man approached him in a mall and said, you know, well, modeling, it's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is, like a very scary industry. I mean, talk about.

[Lola Blanc]

Especially then.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, talk about a fucking cold.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, and like a lot of trafficking and a lot of really ugly, ugly things.

[Lola Blanc]

I. I mean fortunately it was always fine. But I cannot tell you how many weird photo shoots I did in random locations with weird men one on one.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh my God.

[Lola Blanc]

As an 18, 19, 20 year old, so many. I would just go on craigslist and look for paid model stuff and it'd be like a hundred dollars at this guy's house in Tarzana and I'd be like sold.

[Lindsay Burr]

You got a hundred dol.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I had to pay Jacques $100.

[Lindsay Burr]

This blows.

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[Lola Blanc]

Let's say I'm a model.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I. I. Yeah, let's say I'm a model.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's say Megan's a model.

[Lindsay Burr]

You both are models.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan shows up. We both show up because Megan brings her friends to day one. Like, what? What does that trajectory look like? You know, there's challenges. What kinds of challenges were there in the beginning? And how did they evolve?

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I started. I was pa and then I went to talent babysitter, we called it. So I was the girl. I was so young, who on set, you know, juggled for the models and kept them fed and busy. And then when they got eliminated, they would live in a hotel, so that way we wouldn't know who got. We called it sequesterville. And I would take them to Magic Mountain, or I got a tattoo with a bunch of them from season five.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Lindsay Burr]

But, yeah, so they would cast or they'd go through casting, and then we started doing the, like, you, you know, 24 to 12 or whatever would find out they made it, and then it would be, you know, welcome whatever big thing Tyra would do to welcome them that season. And it just had to get bigger and bigger. That's the way to hold a viewer and to make people not change the channel. It was like, we can't do the same thing every season, so how are we gonna top ourselves this season? And they just got more ridiculous and ridiculous. I mean, I can't even. With the blackface. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can you say a little bit about what happened?

[Lindsay Burr]

And I remember, but I just. I look at it now, and it goes like, duh. That's so dumb. But I don't. I wish I can take a time machine back to wherever that photo shoot was, because I know I was present for it and be like, this just seems really stupid. But you didn't, because at the time,

[Megan Elizabeth]

you were probably just like.

[Lindsay Burr]

I was like, whatever justification they've made for this, it's totally right. We can't do anything wrong.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Okay, so. So tell us about this photo shoot, because I was just watching Reality Check, which is this recently released documentary on Top Model.

[Lindsay Burr]

So Good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so good. And I had forgotten about the Change youe race photo shoot.

[Lindsay Burr]

Twice. They did it twice.

[Lola Blanc]

Twice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no.

[Lindsay Burr]

I. They went back. This was after I left. And they were like, we should.

[Lola Blanc]

You know what?

[Lindsay Burr]

We should do it again.

[Coldwater Creek Sponsor]

And it just.

[Lola Blanc]

Jesus Christ.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So they were like, every model is gonna change race so we could experience

[Lindsay Burr]

what it's like to be each other's. Maybe the intent was right, but the execution was wrong. How could it be rightly executed? It couldn't be.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, was it, like, so you can

[Lola Blanc]

experience the oppression that they. I don't. I. I guess that wasn't really in the cultural lexicon at the time.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's really. It was really bad. There were a lot of bad ones.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm shocked. Nobody died doing this doing Top Model. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, somebody like that pivot was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sorry. Well, somebody had hypothermia.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, my God. The summit. The challenges just got ridiculous, and everybody

[Megan Elizabeth]

was, like, you know, a little bit hungry, and then.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah, they got real cuckoo. There was one we did. It was back when. What was that brand? There was a brand of clothing that miss 60. American.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, American Apparel.

[Lindsay Burr]

American Apparel. They had their warehouse downtown, and they had to, like, do a tightrope walk or something. There was something about heights. Oh, my God. And I. Every time I drive by where that was, it takes me back to being like, I don't know why we had tightrope walk. I don't know why we had to do that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm not quite sure why we had

[Lindsay Burr]

to do a tightrope walk, but we did.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Was there a safety net underneath it?

[Lindsay Burr]

Probably. Okay, I am assuming.

[Lola Blanc]

Boo.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's not real if there's safety nets.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, but the girl who almost got hypothermia, what was that challenge?

[Lindsay Burr]

It was a pool. It was like a water challenge. They were probably having mermaids or something underwater. I don't remember that one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was in the dock where they

[Lindsay Burr]

were just, like, taking her in an ambulance. Definitely not there for, like, go find unhoused people and, like, take pictures with them.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that was one. That was one.

[Lindsay Burr]

I mean, it got really bad. But I think that this was literally at the time where reality TV was a joke of itself. Like, it was bad. But then I look at, like, all the other shows. Everything was bad at the time.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, reality shows were all bad.

[Lindsay Burr]

They're really bad at the time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But that challenge just sounds uniquely horrible.

[Lindsay Burr]

Horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible.

[Lola Blanc]

They were posing with them, like, as.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's. Yeah, I was not there, but like from the. That one. It was in the dark.

[Megan Elizabeth]

See, I thought that they just dressed as an unhoused person.

[Lindsay Burr]

I didn't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know they were.

[Lindsay Burr]

I think they actually went. And we were like, hi.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, dear.

[Lindsay Burr]

Do you have a few minutes?

[Megan Elizabeth]

We gotta. We gotta pose.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And Jesus Christ.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, literally watching this as a younger person, it just all went in straight into the non formed prefrontal cortex is like, cool.

[Lindsay Burr]

Totally normal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally normal.

[Lindsay Burr]

There's moments you have in, like your professional life, personal, like, you go, man, I really wish I did that differently. And the one that really hits me was it Kaelyn. It was either. I think it was Kalyn. And we went to Hollywood Cemetery and she had just lost, like a friend had passed away. Oh, no. And then we were like, get in the empty grave and take a picture. And I remember feeling really icky about that. And if I could go back now and use my voice, I mean, I have no problem speaking up about things now, but.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lindsay Burr]

But at the time I was just like, okay, this is. Being a model is going to be really tough and sometimes you're going to have to do things that are uncomfortable.

[Lola Blanc]

We're preparing you for modelhood.

[Lindsay Burr]

But it was so dumb.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's really stupid. And I think that's the thing is, I don't want to say it was group think, but reality tv, when you said what was in the lexicon and what were we learning? It's changed so much in the 20 years since that that wouldn't happen. And I think when I said it was the Wild west, there went to so many extremes out of the curiosity of the human spirit, like, how far will people go to do things? And now we've been reeling. I feel like we've reeled that back in.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, but who was coming up with these challenges?

[Lindsay Burr]

There's producers, so there were the team. I mean, this is back also when reality TV had a lot of money. We had massive teams. Right. So we had field producers and they worked with associate producers and they'd sit around and spitball. And I think Top Model was actually set up where there were the photo producer, so someone who's in charge of the weekly photo shoot, and then the challenge producer, then there was a whole post team, which was wild. Yeah, it was big. I mean, it was a huge show. A lot of people who produced Top Model in the post team, they all organized for the strike. And then back in 2010 or nine, the WGA strike, and they lost their jobs and then they all started Drag Race. They all moved over to Drag Race. So there's a lot of, like, Top Model elements in Drag Race. Interesting, but better. More fun maybe, but yeah. So it was massive. I mean, we were a crew. When we would travel, we were a traveling crew of like, 60, 70 people.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Holy shit.

[Lola Blanc]

So you're with the girls like, day to day. So, like, a lot of time, what would you notice as these seasons would go on about, like, when they weren't doing so well with it?

[Lindsay Burr]

That's interesting. That's a good question. I think my job was like, and still is in some ways today, to be a cheerleader. So my take was always like, if you didn't win or you're here, you know how many people wanted to be here. And so just being here is a win. I think I always went the look at the glass half full person and was having those conversations with the girls so that when they'd leave, they'd leave happy that they had the experience. I mean, I was friends with a lot of them afterwards, but yeah. And then also our psychologist. I mean, she was my psychologist too. I would talk to her half the time, too, and be like, how do I help? You know? And it's wearing on me. It was grueling. We had a lot of long days. We weren't fed. Right. When people. When the girls are coming out, the women are coming out and saying they didn't feel. That's probably true. I mean, there were just not a lot of guardrails about things like that then. But it didn't just apply to them. It applied to all of us.

[Lola Blanc]

You're like, I was starving.

[Lindsay Burr]

The whole crew was starving, and you're not even modeling.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

So, I mean, I remember in bar so bad. I remember in Barcelona just being like, I haven't eaten in 24 hours and neither have these girls. And, you know, I felt like I always spoke up in defense of when I, like, knew. Knew it in my core. Do I wish I did more of it? Probably, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, we all have interest back.

[Lindsay Burr]

Looking back, I could have been, you

[Megan Elizabeth]

know, how long did it take for somebody to, like, okay, so you see the girl get cast in the show. Right. Yay.

[Lindsay Burr]

Like a minute.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, when in the process would they start to kind of become different? Would you notice?

[Lindsay Burr]

What do you mean different? Like, like, they adapted. Yeah. When they became the model, there were some that I was just like, excuse me. Like the. Like, a little bit of entitlement. I was like, oh, wow. Oh, there were some. God, I hate naming names, but Season five's winner. I was like, can you just be a little nicer? You know, interesting. But there were also. We were all young kids, right? Like, I look, there was a season when we were in Thailand. Two of the girls were in Sequesterville, and they weren't. They weren't supposed to leave without, like, a me, right? And, I mean, I love this one. It was a Thanksgiving Day, and that's was always. That was, like, not fun to be away from family on Thanksgiving Day. And we were doing Final Runway, and it was the biggest Final Runway. It was like we had to hire every local camera operator in Thailand to help us shoot it. And I had stayed out till six in the morning with our director and just partying because I was young and there was no such thing as sleep. But. But that day, these two girls, we used to have everyone who traveled, even if they were eliminated, they'd walk the Final Runway, which gave exposure to them. But they had been like, I forget, what have they done that was so bad? I don't remember. But they were not allowed to walk in the Final Runway, so they were gonna stay in Sequesterville with a PA that day. And I was wherever this place was, and the PA called me and was like, lindsay. I went to their room, and they're not there.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, no.

[Lindsay Burr]

And I went, oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You've lost the models.

[Lindsay Burr]

The models in Bangkok. Like, that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We don't want to.

[Lola Blanc]

Such a funny premise.

[Lindsay Burr]

You don't want to lose the models in Bangkok?

[Lola Blanc]

Lost models in Bangkok.

[Lindsay Burr]

Lost models in Bangkok. And so then I have to go tell Ken Mok.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, this.

[Lindsay Burr]

And Ken is like a father figure to me. Like, I could go on and on about, like, he is crazy. And also, I've learned everything in my career because of the teams he's put together, but he's scary. And I had to go up to him and be like, I mean, Ken

[Megan Elizabeth]

is the father of reality television.

[Lindsay Burr]

I went up to him, and I went, hi, how's your turkey? And he's sitting with Tyra and Nigel and, like, the J's. And I'm like, just so you know, they're missing. And he went. He went. They're missing. He's yelling at me in front of everyone. And I go, I can't be in two places at once. Like, what do you want me to do? And so we had, like, our production people looking through hotel surveillance tape for them.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Lindsay Burr]

It was. We found them. They came back, they went shopping.

[Lola Blanc]

But, oh, I was hoping that story would just Keep going.

[Lindsay Burr]

I wish. I mean, it is a great premise for a movie like that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I'm gonna watch that.

[Lindsay Burr]

But then I was back in my room that night, had made it through the day off of an hour and a half sleep, and they called me and asked me to take them to ice cream, and I just went, fuck you. No, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I've been friends with you for so long. I was about to say years. Not gonna say it. Yeah. And you, like, never sleep. So if I were to ever go out with you, I knew I would not be going to bed ever. And we would go on vacations where we wouldn't.

[Lindsay Burr]

Thank God, but, like, we would go

[Megan Elizabeth]

on vacations where we. I would like. Oh, we're not gonna sleep three days later. Sorry.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

My God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's a culture where, like, I don't know if that's just who you would have been no matter what you were working on, but I feel like it is a culture that, you know, promotes people just going, going, going.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

You mean reality or fashion?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Reality.

[Lindsay Burr]

Reality.

[Lola Blanc]

Both.

[Lindsay Burr]

I think it's. I think it's. Well, there wasn't. There was a level of proving yourself, like, if you can. Could work the most hours and be there and be, you know, everybody. There was that one show about the Bachelor with the crazy producer who, like, never.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Unreal, right?

[Lindsay Burr]

And it was so her. I was like that. I feel you, girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we've, you know, starting from PA to being, you know, an executive producer. I thank God things have changed. Like, I don't. We don't do that anymore. At least I don't expect that from people. And. But yeah, it was messy. Yeah, Messy, but also kind of fun. It was like Wild West.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

We were just making it up. We were like, let's try that. And there was no basis to compare it to. We were.

[Lola Blanc]

You were the blueprint.

[Lindsay Burr]

We were the blueprint. So it was like, throw a dart, whatever, and, like. Yeah, let's hope it works. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's just interesting that the producers and everybody working on the show was also, like, in the kind of cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

Well, reality TV is a cult, right? I mean, it is.

[Lola Blanc]

Expand.

[Lindsay Burr]

It is. I mean, to the point of to make something to lead, to be successful, to want people to watch and follow and believe in it. I mean, the. The infrastructure of a cult is there, right? I mean, I was thinking about this on the way here. Like, Bachelor Nation.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

Cult. I mean, my friend was the whistleblower at the. When the Bachelor in Paradise happened. And she had people outside of her apartment, like, with, like, signs and wishing death on her because she shut down Bachelor in Paradise for.

[Lola Blanc]

For a sexual assault allegation, right? Yes, for the right reasons.

[Lindsay Burr]

And so I go there is like, the fan following. And I think in terms of Top Model, when we say, like, every season, the challenges got cuckooer and crazier. It's when Tyra does. When Tyra says, like. But people watch, right? Like, there is it fed off of each other. So this no one, no one was the adult in the room saying, maybe

[Lola Blanc]

it's not worth it.

[Lindsay Burr]

Maybe this isn't great, you know? And I think in that level of, like, media and money and companies and advertising, it just grew.

[Lola Blanc]

That's capitalism, baby. When money is the bottom line, people aren't as important as making that pile grow a hundred percent in terms of like, like being on set, like, because that's something we've talked about quite a bit, is like, you're in a controlled environment. The producers are in charge or the hosts or whatever. You aren't allowed to, like, get a break, to think about other things. Like, even as the experience of a producer, like, what's culty about reality in that way?

[Lindsay Burr]

It is. It is. I mean, in a way, it's an experiment. Right. So what happens when you don't have the things outside of your life to influence you? And in Top Model, it goes back and forth with, like, for me, my focus is always in, like, storytelling. And when you can't control it, if you say, like, yeah, just go out and come back whenever and the house is open, then things happen that, like, we can't control. Right. Like, I can't go to the grocery store with a camera crew and film you doing that. Like, it's not that simple. And it definitely wasn't then with, you know, we were shooting when I started, we were shooting on actual tapes. Right, Right. You know, not digital. So while the intent isn't to, I think, be a master controller, the reasoning is, if I don't, then all of these things that will affect the storytelling of this will happen, and we wouldn't have been able to film it. And so in all of these shows, you create the playground, so you will. So if something happens and the viewers go like, but we didn't get to see it, that's the reasoning behind it. Now, is it right? That doesn't make it necessarily right, but the intent is. So that way you're not missing as a story producer, you're not missing the things that affect the Story. But I think that was why. I mean, the house, we definitely had it. So you can have phone calls.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's good.

[Lindsay Burr]

Unlike the Bachelor, they could do phone calls. There was the phone room. You know, we certainly had nights. They stayed in the houses. The house by themselves. We had cameras in it, but it was even before, like, rigged cameras and all that. It was just, you know, we provided the place for them to live, and then we also filmed them in that place. So it wasn't real world. Real world had the structure where it was. To me, that's like the ultimate reality show. It was perfect. They shot it over nine months. They really took their time with it. It was truly intended to be a documentary. Well, people didn't want that. They wanted shorter schedules. Turn it around.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's when.

[Lola Blanc]

Because it's less expensive.

[Lindsay Burr]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

More money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then the Real World challenge.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm addicted.

[Lindsay Burr]

It still feels.

[Lola Blanc]

Everyone talks about that shit. I've never seen it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And those people could die at any time. They're like, the shit they have those people doing. And I'm like, play is.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like adventure, challenges kind of thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

I live in a house and some. I mean, it's still going, isn't it? It's still going. It's wild.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's absolutely batshit insane. And I can't stop watching it.

[Lindsay Burr]

See, that's the problem.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's the problem. And I'm part of.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's not the problem. It's the curiosity, though, of the human spirit that's. And, like, to me, people go, like, why? Unscripted? And I go, I love unscripted. Because in my wildest dreams, no matter what I could think of, that person just fucking surprised the shit out of me. Like, humans doing things that you can't even predict and then having to, like, go, oh, my God, that's so good. Now I have to. Now I have to pivot. So I think that's the fun of it all. But is it like a giant culture? Fuck, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Probably.

[Lindsay Burr]

Like, unscripted's weird. It is. It's taking real people and asking them to be real people, for real people. And it's. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I wonder if now, like, doing reality now, does it feel quite, quite different? Because I feel like there's so much more self awareness now around what it means to be on a reality show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

And it's hard to find authenticity. Casting is really hard. Casting's become a lot harder in whatever type of format you're looking for. Dating, docu series. It's just everyone's. They're self aware.

[Megan Elizabeth]

They're like thinking it through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So you have to find people who don't want to be on TV and

[Lindsay Burr]

then convince them to be on tv. You have to do it. No.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What's the most surprising thing you saw?

[Lindsay Burr]

My favorite thing. Okay, we could talk about Tyra, but my favorite thing is. So I came up. I was a babysitter of the girls and had a lot of fun women and we had a lot of stories there. But then I went to post. I was like, I wanna learn how to edit and post produce. And I was like, they call EM loggers now. AI does all this stuff. But you would sit there and you'd watch all the tape and you'd literally verbatim say, like, this is what's happening. So then the producers would have it, and I would do that and then hang out with the editors and ask them questions. But one day, I think it's season nine, Tyra asked to be cut out of judging because she didn't like how her eyelashes looked. As soon as you said her name,

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just knew something.

[Lindsay Burr]

She literally went. She saw an edit and she went, yeah, we're gonna have to cut me out completely. Like the host of the show of two acts of a show who stands there and goes, I have two. And I remember being like, I know I'm really new to the post thing, but this just doesn't seem possible. Yeah. And being super confused that no one was telling her.

[Lola Blanc]

That was impossible.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah. And so editorial time and people's like, skill set was spent cutting her out of judging completely so she could see it. And then she saw it and she was like, yeah, it totally works. It is hilarious. But you're like, it's like the voice of God is handing out the photos to her.

[Lola Blanc]

Her voice is in it still.

[Lindsay Burr]

Voice in it. But no Tyra. And we can't do reshoots. Cause they've all gone home. It's all different. You don't reshoot an elimination.

[Lola Blanc]

That's hilarious.

[Lindsay Burr]

And so it went up to Les Moonves, like, at. This is the leg, I think. I mean, I'm still like, young, but the legend is Les Moonves had to tell her, no, you have to be in the judging. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

I have to see this scene. Cause I have to see what those eyelashes look like.

[Lindsay Burr]

So we added in the. And this is where I go, this is a. There's always a solution. This is. You know, there's never a problem that can't Be solved is my take on things. But, like, solving it sooner than later will save a lot of money. And the solution was add an ADR line saying, I just came from a photo shoot, and that's why my eyelashes look like this. And so that's what Joel does.

[Lola Blanc]

Genius.

[Lindsay Burr]

But it took, like, a month of people spinning their wheels.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Lindsay Burr]

And to this day, I think about it, I was like, that. That's literally the actual craziest thing. And there's lots of crazies. I've done. I did Dating Naked. I mean, I've seen. I've seen it. Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Didn't they accidentally show, like, a girl's butthole in that show?

[Lindsay Burr]

Yes. The Blur did not blur. The Blur did not blur.

[Lola Blanc]

I did not know about that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And she sued.

[Lindsay Burr]

She sued. Yeah, she should. That's probably why we didn't get another season. Oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

To the eyelashes thing. Listen, I've looked at a video of myself and been like, we gotta fix that. Yeah, we gotta cut that moment. I can't hate.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it's.

[Lola Blanc]

It's crazy, but it's very extreme.

[Lindsay Burr]

And I just was like, did you not look in the mirror before you went? I won't say specifically what episode, but super fans will know. Like, you'll dig. It's season nine or ten. Damn.

[Lola Blanc]

That is quite an ordeal, though, to try to get rid of it.

[Lindsay Burr]

It was so good. She's so. She's so interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's talk about Tyra, you guys.

[Lindsay Burr]

She is the most, like, person who can just turn on I have ever met in my entire life. Like, I wouldn't say she's not friendly. She's just, like, very internal and doesn't, like, socialize very much. But then she, like, stands in front of the lights, and it's like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It turns on.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's like her Barbie doll character in that Lindsay Lohan movie.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Lindsay Burr]

And it, like, never not impressed me for. I was like, I don't. That's weird.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

I was always like, that's weird, but it's also fascinating. I just remember being like. And, like, doesn't need really cue cards or anything. Just, like, comes to life. And then it's like, I can almost hear the sound effect that goes with her powering on and then power off.

[Lola Blanc]

That's a skill. But being able to turn it on like, that is exhausting. I feel like you've really got to turn it off.

[Lindsay Burr]

Off. She would turn it off. She would definitely.

[Lola Blanc]

I turn it off the second I leave this podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. So I'm watching the show last night that was kind of explaining how she became a model and she was rejected 50,000 million times. And by that, I mean five. And she, you know, she had a. She had a rough time because, number one, they. All they wanted was white models back in her day.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny, white models. So, like, she had an incredible arc and she had a huge part in history and did amazing things. But, yeah, I think she was probably treated so cruelly that some of these actions that she was taking against girls she didn't even realize were.

[Lindsay Burr]

That's so on the nose that she would. Perpetuating the cycle that she was trying to stop. Right? She was. And I know there was a lot of finger pointing. Like, she would get frustrated at Janice and be like, this isn't what we're doing. But.

[Lola Blanc]

But she kept Janice on the show.

[Lindsay Burr]

But. And also, you were doing it too. You know, it's like, I seriously think she didn't see it then. I hope there's some awareness now. I don't know. The doc leaves you asking questions. But, yeah, I think she is a product of the world that she came up in. And there's a bit of like, well, I had to do it, and if you really want it this bad, this is what it is. You have to do it, too. And not to say it's right, but I can't say there's moments where I go as a producer, this is, you know, not tit for tat, but I go like, man, I worked long hours, I cleaned, I did all the jobs right. I, like, really wanted it really bad. And then I meet a lot of young people who are like, I did a job. I'm ready to be the executive producer now. And I'm like, go clean the rain gutter.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stay up for one week straight. Exactly.

[Lindsay Burr]

And I'm not saying it's the same, but there. I do think there's an element of whether she was aware of it or not, the hardship she found herself in to now be in a place where she is the executive producer of the show she created and all of that. And it's like, well, ladies, if you want it, you're gonna want it just as bad as I did. And it doesn't make it right, but I think that it explains some of the behavior.

[Lola Blanc]

That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Lindsay Burr]

And it's like, but then when do we stop? Right? Like, be better then, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Are we breaking the cycle or are we not?

[Lindsay Burr]

Like, be better then. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I think it's important to know this all kind of came to a head when people started rewatching it during the pandemic, which is wild, wild, wild. So during the pandemic, everybody was like, I'm bored. I'm gonna start watching a show I've never seen before, which is America's Next Top Model. So this is like the next generation of people that. That were like, what the hell?

[Lindsay Burr]

And in the lens of today, exactly. Where you're just like, this would not, yes. Go well today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

So I didn't finish the docu series, but obviously I know there were a lot of racial microaggressions. There was a lot of commenting on people's weights. What else was going on?

[Lindsay Burr]

I think there was like a lack of awareness about mental health. It just was a lack of empathy. I think even though it felt like it should be empowering women, I don't think it was. And then there's been talk about, would it come back? Would they do Top Model again? And I go, what does that look like, though? Because you can't do that version of it.

[Lola Blanc]

Is there a body positive?

[Lindsay Burr]

How do we. And even though Top Myrtle tried to do body positivity, like they had plus size models, they tried to highlight differences, but I don't think they did it. In a way, looking back at it, it felt very, like, cliche, like token. Like, yeah. Instead of just. I don't know. But here's an example. Like, I work on Queer Eye, right? If you look at the original Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, same company created both. That didn't age well either. Like, you couldn't make that again. There's like really aggressive jokes in it. And it kind of could go like, yikes. But the reboot of it today was like, okay, what does culture need now? What are we asking for? We're asking for a little bit more depth and kindness. Kindness. And then I go, if we look at this reboot 10 years from now, will it be outdated as well? So. So I don't know. I think that it's an interesting question. I always love to be like, there's always a solution to things. Like, what would it be? But I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

I know modeling is tough. Cause it's just inherently. Well, you guys, when I was modeling and face.

[Megan Elizabeth]

When I was modeling, you know, I faced a lot of adversity.

[Lindsay Burr]

First you had to bring your friends. But here's something. I clearly don't speak fashion. I wear a black shirt and jeans every day. I've Never. I never got it. I, like, I was not going there to be the fashionista or knew the designers or any of that. I will say, the Runway episode or when we went to South Africa and that Runway, watching it. I had never been to a fashion show. I didn't get it. I was like, what? Who cares about this? And I watch that fashion show. It was with Naima and Kalin. And I stood there and I went, oh, I understand it now. So maybe that's, like, the tapping into

[Lola Blanc]

it, like, Devil Wears Prada moment.

[Lindsay Burr]

It was 100% Devil Wears Prada. And I went, oh, I get the drama, the joy, like, the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, it's a peak experience.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah, it's a peak experience. I sat there and I went, oh, okay, now this makes sense to me. And how do you capture that? But, yeah, I agree with you. Like, how do you. So it's not really about modeling. It's about a dream, about being being seen, Feeling wanted, I guess. You know, feeling.

[Lola Blanc]

But, yeah, it's hard. I mean, I love. What's the fashion one? The Project Runway. Obsessed with Project Runway. But, like, that is about people's work and what they're creating and their creativity and their ideas, not their faces and bodies.

[Lindsay Burr]

And then judging on a face and the physical.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah, I mean, one of the interesting things about what Tyra was creating was she was like. And she says this in the. In the show. Why the fuck can't I remember the name of it? What is her reboot?

[Lindsay Burr]

Reality.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Reality Check.

[Lindsay Burr]

I think it's Reality Check.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Nobody can remember this.

[Lola Blanc]

It is Reality Check.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay? She says that in Reality Check. She was like, if this show doesn't sell, what will become of me? Because what does become of a model

[Lola Blanc]

after their expiration date?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. And it's like, correct. You needed to make this show or you're a little bit fucked. But now you're, like, passing the curse on to more girls.

[Lola Blanc]

It follows,

[Lindsay Burr]

where does it end? And I think that was her thing is always, like, trying to make modeling more than just being your face. Like, what's your business? And that look at social media. It's like, it's all, what is your brand? Right? And I. She started talking about branding, though, before we see it in here. And I mean, I hate it too. I'm. Look at me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, she's no dummy. She's no dummy.

[Lindsay Burr]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

But it's. Yes. Makes sense from a business perspective.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Just makes.

[Lindsay Burr]

It's allergic to it. And then you go. And then you go open an ice cream shop. In Australia.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so she just opened an ice cream shop in Australia.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I thought you were just pulling a random thing.

[Lindsay Burr]

That's what you do. That's the, that's the blueprint.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like I just kept sending you videos about this for the past year. Every time I'd see one, I'd send it to you. Cause it's like hot ice cream.

[Lindsay Burr]

What? I. I didn't know what ice cream could be hot. Well, she was gonna do you guys did you know this one? And it fell through. She was gonna do model land.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Model land.

[Lindsay Burr]

Model land in Santa Monica. I think Covid is why it went away. And, and it's probably a good thing. But you could go. You would go with your friends and it was like curated rooms where you took photos and left with pretty photos of yourself modeling. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Like glamour shots for grownups. But like, but a theme park.

[Lindsay Burr]

But a theme park. And I, I wrote Ken and I was like, if this is happening, we're getting a bus. And everybody who's ever worked on Top Model is going, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is there going to be like a Runway on everything?

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that's just an influencer installation on a large scale.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I need model.

[Lola Blanc]

That'll happen. That feels like it'll happen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Show us your smize, Lola.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, wait, let me think about it. No, I can't at all.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wait.

[Lindsay Burr]

The pressure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, wait. Lindsay, do you have one?

[Lindsay Burr]

No, I can't. I won't even try. Cause I know what my face is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't wanna blue steal you guys. And like.

[Lola Blanc]

And like blow our minds.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Blow your minds.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, that's a good one. It's the movement of the eyes.

[Lola Blanc]

Should we all smize at each other?

[Lindsay Burr]

I look like I'm angry.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you are. That's the point.

[Lola Blanc]

So how do you find things have gotten more responsible and careful about the well being of the contestants in the modern era? Or at least on shows you work on?

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah, I do. I do think so. I really do. I think there is just, like I was saying earlier, this duty of care. Like we at least I can't speak. I don't do every reality show. But on the shows I've worked on, it's really important for me as a producer to. And I think all of these experiences have led me to be that type of producer. And the companies I work with, we have a responsibility to the people who sign up to share their stories. And there's always aftercare, there's site care. We always offer that. I mean, every person I ever cast has my actual personal Number. So I'm putting my name and my reputation on the line with them. They can find me easily. But, yeah, I think there's also a responsibility of thinking, like, will this age? Well, you know, and poking holes. I always like to say, like, let's poke holes in the ship. Like, what are we not seeing? I also think there's just learned experience from the past. We have now a bucket of things, all of us that come to the table as producers in tv. We have experience and we go, well, nope, we shouldn't do that, because I worked on the Bachelor and that happened, or I did this. And so there's just a lot more experience in the production of reality TV now than there was in the early 2000s. That's what I see. I'd like to think I'm better, but

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think you are. And I think it's great that things have gotten better because it was Wild West.

[Lola Blanc]

It was Wild West.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was.

[Lola Blanc]

And I'm sure there are some shows today. We're gonna find out the conditions were still extremely coercive and whatever, but.

[Lindsay Burr]

And there's budgets, and I think people feel the constraints of budgets, but they want big things. So, yeah, I know there's. I won't name the shows. I haven't worked on them, but I know shows out there, and they're in the press. You can read, you know, read any Reddit. They'll be like, they didn't feed us and blah, blah, blah. And that's awesome that people are speaking up. I think that's a big thing is to. You can't learn from it unless you speak up. So I'm a big proponent of that. I just always want to be on the end of, like, I'm so glad I did that show. That's my goal as a producer, is I want everyone to leave and be like, yay. Not oops. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So there was a moment in my life when I was like, should I go on the Bachelor? And I was telling Megan earlier, it's mainly because I want to hang out in a house with a bunch of girls and go to cool places. But also, I would never be into any of the Bachelors that have ever existed. But the reason that I was like, I am definitely not applying for that was. Cause the contract, everything it said about how it could make me say things I had never said.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you witness much of that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

So.

[Lindsay Burr]

And I get to answer this question all the time because it is a pretty general thing in all contracts, because I Mean, lawyers are always protecting their people, right? I say this producer I worked with on Top Model, Anthony, he's the one who taught me this. I will never make you who you aren't. And especially in this day and age, you can't do that. People have social media. I can never make you who you aren't, but I can turn the volume up on who you are. So when they put that in there, it's because we'll film with, you know, an episode will be shot over five or six days. Well, it's gotta be cut down to 42 minutes, so maybe it's not. I will never make people say I hate Megan when they said, I like Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right?

[Lindsay Burr]

You know, but I would, you know, if it was like, I like Megan, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I condense it to cut for time. So that's to simplify things or whatever. So the spirit to me, the way I interpret that and I always tell people is like, the spirit of that is we have to edit. We have to edit a show. So on my honor, I always say, like, I'm not gonna work for the show that takes people and makes them who they are. And I have not experienced that. I truly believe every show I've done has been truly representative of the people who have been on that show. Even Top Model. I really don't. It's been a billion years, and maybe some of the girls will listen and be like, that's not true. I think the Post team was really reputable and they really wanted to cultivate the real stories of people and whether our challenges were. Were crappy and all of that. I. I do think the storytelling of the women on that show was. Was accurate. That's.

[Lola Blanc]

That's good at least.

[Lindsay Burr]

So, yeah, I think that just is unethical to me, so. No, it is unethical. And I could see why. That's frightening. It's super frightening language in a contract. I wouldn't sign up for it.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, and you. And you. There are people from certain franchises who have come out and been like, that's literally not what happened. And that's not what my intent was with saying that. And that's not who I am. And they made me look like the villain. Cause there so often has to be a villain.

[Lindsay Burr]

That is my favorite question to be asked is like, archetypes. Who's the villain? Who's that? And what I love about TV now is that doesn't work anymore. Like, I truly don't think just flat or at least in my opinion, it doesn't mean, shows aren't being made like that. But whenever I interview for jobs, especially women and telling stories about women, I just think there's such a responsibility where women are not just people who throw drinks at each other and make noise. We could have conflicts and we can fight. But what is the why behind it? Always asking why and making sure the storytelling is asking that of the people who signed up to be a part of a series. It's really important to me. So, yes, I know there are productions that do that. I would like to say I don't work on them, and I think it's really important. And that is the evolution of TV now. I just. I don't think that that TV truly sells anymore. Sells tickets like you can. I know Mormon Wives is really like a loud cuckoo show. I don't love it, but I love knowing the relationships between the women. I do think they did an interesting job of asking why. I think they could have gotten harder on the paint in that. And making people not flat characters, that's the big thing, is no one's a villain. We're all the good guy and we're all the villain. Everyone is both right. We all have moments where we're both. And I think those are the most compelling stories. If you can really, like, crack that in your characters. I mean, so that's the goal. I don't know. But I also would be super cool going to be a professor at a college and saying goodbye to tv. You could.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You could, but it is fun.

[Lindsay Burr]

I mean, it's. You get a project that is fun and then. Yeah, I don't know. I'm rambling now, but are we missing

[Megan Elizabeth]

any of the culty. Any culty stories about America's Next Top Model?

[Lindsay Burr]

I mean, it was like, now I'm even thinking about, like, crew life was like, we were. We were a cult. We eat and breathed and slipped, slept it. But I don't know specifically.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Did you start to, like. Did you start to feel like America's Next Top Model is, like, the most important thing?

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, absolutely. Are you kidding me? And that I got to be on it and work on it. I was in the room when Tyra yelled. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, oh, nice.

[Lindsay Burr]

I was there. I was sitting next to the camera operator. I was like, what the hell's happening? Is that supposed to happen? Yeah, but, yeah, it was important. It was like a huge show. So we thought we were the shit.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you were. And you were.

[Lindsay Burr]

Now I look back, I go, wow. But it's so wild because everybody who worked on that show are all really successful producers. They went off. We could say all the things about it. I will say Ken knew how to build a team of people. And we still text each other. And maybe we are still in a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, no, no.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh, my God. Ken just had a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Ken, the real leader.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah. I love Ken Mock.

[Lola Blanc]

I know.

[Lindsay Burr]

Maybe not the popular opinion, but he

[Megan Elizabeth]

seems like he cares.

[Lindsay Burr]

He definitely cares. Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lindsay, you are one of the most interesting voices in reality TV production we could ever ask to join us. Yeah. And you've done it, and we are so grateful that you came on today. I want to know where they can find you. I also want you to give a little pitch for your project with your husband right now.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah. I have a Instagram, but it's private, so no one has to find me on it. But I am doing a podcast. I'm taking my husband, who's also a TV producer. We are entering the podcast space. Yes, you are. When he was in his 20s working on the Apprentice and a whole. Another whole nother cult we could talk

[Lola Blanc]

about,

[Lindsay Burr]

he was also a sperm donor. And it's funny. When we first started dating, we were friends, and I said, I don't want kids. Like, before we ruin our friendship, I just have to tell you, I truly know in my heart I don't want kids. And he's like, me, too. Asterisk. I was a sperm donor. And I went, wait, when you were in college? And he's like, no, when I was working on the Apprentice, and he checked the box, like, 18, come find me. And that is, like, now. So we are now part of a Facebook group of parents of his. We're estimating, like, 27 children.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whoa.

[Lindsay Burr]

And they're all friends, and they, like, go on vacation together.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Lindsay Burr]

And it's been a very wild journey. So on Queer Eye this last season, I was telling Karamo about it during one of our interviews, and he's like, let's do a podcast. So that podcast is out, and it's called Donor dad, and it's been a very interesting, wild ride, and we will not be a cult, I promise.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, you won't be. You won't be.

[Lindsay Burr]

But, yeah, it's been fun. It's been an interesting journey. So, yeah, Donor Day.

[Lola Blanc]

That's awesome.

[Lindsay Burr]

Wherever you get your podcast, go listen to it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Leave it five stars. And, Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us.

[Lindsay Burr]

Thank you both.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This has been really fun.

[Lindsay Burr]

I love it.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's all we have with Lindsay. I am so glad she joined Us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know.

[Lola Blanc]

She's such a delight. Megan, this, of course, begs the question, which I feel like you probably answered in the interview, but would you go on America's Next Top Model?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I would do anything to go on America's Next top model. Early 2000s. Any challenge they threw my way, I would be right there throwing my heart into it. Janice Dickinson would insult me, I would want her approval, and I would fall in love with Niles.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that sounds right. All of that sounds correct to me. I, I, I really wanted to go on, but I. You know, I feel like in that era, you had to be tall. Like, I don't think the tall thing is a thing as much anymore. I mean, maybe for Runway models, but. But, you know, we were talking about this earlier. Kate Moss is, I think, five, seven, and she was, like, considered, like, so short.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it was like, we have a tiny, tiny person, and she's just, like, a normal, tall, like, medium.

[Lola Blanc]

She is tall. It's just not, like, crazy tall. But I'm five, three and a half. And I was like, Well, I could never. The never.

[Megan Elizabeth]

To be fair, you are a model.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I, I have modeled, but I'm what they call an alt or I was what they call an alternative model, which is like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You've aged out of alternative modeling. That sounds impossible.

[Lola Blanc]

No one has booked me on a modeling gig. In a second.

[Megan Elizabeth]

One second. Lola, give it to.

[Lola Blanc]

I was an alt model. Guys, that's so cheesy. But, yes, I could do print. I could do, like, a makeup company or whatever.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were you under the, like, influence of I need to get a ton of tattoos?

[Lola Blanc]

No, never. Never. I was just like. I knew because, you know, I got the black hair, and I was like, if I get tattoos, it's gonna be too much.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's a hat on a hat.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly. I don't need to do all that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

But, you know, just enough. Just enough little, short, black hair edge.

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Cool. Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Like Karen and Georgia.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You have to be alt. Everyone says you look like a mixture between the two, and you do.

[Lola Blanc]

I know. I don't know how this happened. You have to tie your hair black so you can match all of it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, because I have to be the blonde one.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You see what I'm saying?

[Lola Blanc]

I see what you're saying. Yeah. You could go red. That would also work.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's cruel. Lola, can you imagine me with red hair? I have a red undertone.

[Lindsay Burr]

Oh.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What Lola's doing right now is called sabotage. Okay, guys,

[Lola Blanc]

listen. I was red for a While it didn't look great on me either, let's be honest.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You look good in anything. But. But I, I, I don't think the red was your best.

[Lola Blanc]

It wasn't my best. It depended on the tone. Anyway, we're going on too long.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But, but I, but it does include, like, modeling and hair, you know, And I do recall being with you once with the red, and, and this person was like, I love the red hair. Never change it. Do you remember this?

[Lola Blanc]

To me?

[Lindsay Burr]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I was like, oh, gosh, I hope she doesn't, like, never change it.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. In fairness, I have seen some pictures of the, like, cooler, darker versions of the red, and I'm like, that's so cute.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Listen, it looked good. I'm not saying it wasn't. It's just the black is so iconic.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know what I mean?

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know that, like, the red, it was a top modeling experiment where it's

[Lola Blanc]

like, yeah, I was a new era.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, it needed to happen. But, but in my heart, this is your hair color.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm getting tired of it, but we'll keep it for a while.

[Lindsay Burr]

Okay?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you. As always. Go Rate us 5 stars. If you enjoyed our conversation, go. Please listen to Lindsay and Adam's podcast. It's so funny. I need to join like a thruffle with them and help them raise their thousands of children or whatever.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know what that means, but I'm just gonna let it go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

As always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags, and never, ever trust me. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production, hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark, and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram usme podcast or on TikTok usmecult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Foreign.

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[Lola Blanc]

here from Mint Mobile.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't know if you knew this,

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[Lola Blanc]

your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

[Lindsay Burr]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

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