Maria Bamford - 12 Step Programs, OCD, and How to Join Every Group

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Maria Bamford – 12 Step Programs, OCD, and How to Join Every Group
Release Date: June 10, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Maria Bamford, comedian and author of "Sure, I'll Join Your Cult"

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Overview

In this lively, honest, and at times darkly funny episode, comedian Maria Bamford joins hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth to discuss her wide-ranging experiences with mental health, 12-step programs, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and the ways in which various groups and modalities can skirt the line between support system and cult. The conversation explores Maria’s childhood struggles with intrusive thoughts and eating disorders, her participation in both healthy and dubious self-improvement and support groups, and the cultishness embedded in American culture, family, and even entertainment industry success. The trio reflect on the longing for belonging, the pitfalls of rigid groupthink, and why being human often means chasing answers that might not exist.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Maria’s Relationship to “Cults” and Support Groups

• Title Origin: Maria’s book title comes from a joke in her act: "Sure, I'll join your cult," embodying her willingness to check out any group that offers community or answers.
  • "The publisher said, 'can we use this as a title because cult books sell better than anything?'" (08:25)
• First Cult-y Encounter: Life Springs in the 90s, where she left as soon as doors were locked and payment was demanded.
  • "My poverty saved me." (08:53)
• 12-Step Programs: She's open about her ongoing participation—especially Debtors Anonymous (DA)—but notes their cultish aspects alongside their benefits:
  • "I love 12 step programs because they're free. They are free. Now, of course, it just has all the problems that come with peers telling each other stuff." (11:20)

Notable Insight

• The cultish aspects of "outside issues" in 12-step programs (racism, sexism, etc. are not open for discussion) can render them exclusionary.
  • "In 12 step programs, they call anything that can't be handled sexism, racism, colonialism, ableism. They call that an outside issue." (12:46)

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2. Mental Health, OCD, and Finding Help

• Intrusive Thoughts as a Child: Maria details severe childhood OCD, intrusive thoughts about violence, and how early therapy (progressive for the time) helped somewhat.
  • "I just stopped being able to sleep at night because I was worried I was gonna rape or murder people...I wasn't even sure what those things were, but I was like, I'm probably gonna do it." (21:54)
• Eating Disorders and Treatment: Struggled with "exercise bulimia" and found early solace (and problems) in Overeaters Anonymous and inpatient treatment.
  • "You start making weird, weird choices...OA wasn't super helpful...pretty soon you're just eating communion wafers and Sunny Delight." (23:46)
• Community and Accessibility: Maria credits free, peer-hosted groups for providing lifesaving support, especially when professional treatment is inaccessible.
  • "There's the free cake, you know, like, that's pretty cool...a place where you are welcome no matter what." (26:28)
• Normalizing Intrusive Thoughts: Finding out intrusive thoughts are common and treatable was a relief.
  • "It was really nice to hear that everybody has those thoughts." (24:30)

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3. Family, Early Conditioning & “Every Family Is a Cult”

• The Suzuki Violin Method: Maria equates her grueling childhood violin lessons to a cult due to their rigidity and emotional effects.
  • “That’s where it becomes a cult…you feel like you can’t quit.” (35:31)
• "Family as Cult": The hosts and Maria agree that all children are, to some degree, captive to their parents’ worldviews and routines.
  • "Parents are children's cult leaders." (34:54)
• Maria’s Mom: Her mother encouraged achievements primarily as a source of pride and connection; her sister went to med school, Maria was nudged toward performance.
  • “In order to get her attention, you had to do something impressive.” (52:09)
• Aunt Jolie & More Obscure Groups: Maria’s aunt was involved in various New Age and channeling groups, e.g., est, Diamond Heart, Lazarus.
  • “She made me do an enneagram test where I was a seven…” (34:14)

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4. The Cultishness of American Capitalism, Self-Help, and the Entertainment Industry

• American Capitalism as Cult: Both Maria and hosts decry the pressure to define one’s worth through accumulation and achievement.
  • "American capitalism is so cult like…it convinces so many of us that in order to be worthy, we have to achieve this unattainable thing." (63:37)
• Dale Carnegie Courses: Maria went with her depressive father. The course's manipulative tricks (e.g., repeating names) taught her how to "win" social contests but felt cult-y in its emotional tactics.
  • “The sweetest sound to a person's ear is the sound of their own name. So you say people's names...” (57:17)
• Show Business as Cult-y: Maria likens Hollywood success to addiction: the highs are so high, the lows so low, and it's full of “mean” authority figures.
  • "It feels like show business is an alcoholic…It’s mean and can’t remember my name." (17:42)

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5. Finding Belonging Without Losing One’s Self

• Benefits and Pitfalls of Community: The urge to belong is fundamental, whether in 12-step, yoga, or creative communities, but the group’s rules and routines can become stifling.
  • “When there’s too many…rules, you’re like…that’s enough for me.” (73:29)
• Healthy Resistance: Maria describes her refusal to be told what to do—whether in yoga or group living—as a useful anti-cult defense.
  • “Being resistant to being told what to do is a really great way to help you stay out of [cults].” (75:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Poverty Saving Her from Cults:
  “They wanted me to…They’re like, do you have a credit card? I’m like, nope. My poverty saved me." – Maria (08:53)

• On the Rigidity of 12-step Programs:
  "In 12 step programs, they call anything that can't be handled sexism, racism, colonialism, ableism…an outside issue." – Maria (12:46)

• On Accepting Help (and Needing Ongoing Support):
  “You gotta call somebody…There’s some sort of thing where I go, oh, you shouldn’t ever need help again.” – Maria (42:33)

• On Doing "Enough" Good:
  “I give 11% of income to share. It’s 1% better than the Jews, Christians or Muslims…Is that virtue signaling like a lighthouse?” – Maria (45:29)

• On the Pressure to Succeed:
  "In order to get [my mom’s] attention, you had to do something impressive. Play the violin. My sister ended up going to med school, had four kids, you know, had an insanely beautiful, gorgeous house." – Maria (52:09)

• On the Limits of Fixing Others in Relationships:
  “Basically that is saying, oh, I think you’re wrong. I wish I’d not done that.” – Maria, about marriage and trying to change someone (51:23)

• On Group Living & Ideal Cults:
  "I think I’d like everybody to live on the same block…And then learn dances…lots of animals…" – Maria (89:24)

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Key Timestamps

• [08:25] – Maria discusses the origin of her book title and early cult-y group experiences.
• [11:20] – Deep dive into the cultish dynamics of 12-Step programs.
• [21:54] – Maria describes debilitating childhood OCD and intrusive thoughts.
• [23:46] – Struggles with eating disorders and the mixed impacts of early treatment.
• [35:31] – Suzuki violin method as an emotionally coercive system.
• [45:29] – Maria’s ocd-driven charitable giving.
• [57:17] – Dale Carnegie’s manipulations and self-improvement as social performance.
• [63:37] – The cult mentality of American capitalism and “worthiness.”
• [73:29] – On intentional communities, group rules, and anti-cult defenses.
• [89:24] – If Maria could design a cult: community, animals, and shared projects.

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Final Reflections

The episode is a compassionate, irreverent, and searching look at the longing for community, the allure and danger of clear rules, and the pitfalls of seeking solace in any system or leader. The hosts and Maria all agree that while groups can provide comfort, meaning, and structure, they also demand vigilance against groupthink, exclusion, and the tendency to lose oneself in devotion. Ultimately, it’s about being gentle with ourselves for wanting to belong—and wise enough to know when to leave.

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Listen if you’re interested in:

• The gray area between cult and community
• The lived experience of OCD and intrusive thoughts
• The paradoxes of 12-step programs and other support systems
• Humor, honesty, and how we keep searching for answers in an uncertain world

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Resources Mentioned

• International OCD Foundation
• Maria Bamford’s book: Sure, I’ll Join Your Cult
• Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People
• OA, DA, and other 12-step programs
• Nocd.com for OCD treatment

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End Quote
"Sometimes it’s good to join a cult just for a week, just to get the initial high…and then you abruptly pull out." — Maria Bamford (91:34)

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Transcript

[Maria Bamford]

This is exactly right.

[Lola Blanc]

Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

He is coming after my family

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[Maria Bamford]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Maria Bamford]

Full [e-mail] Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you trust me?

[Maria Bamford]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me.

[Maria Bamford]

This is the truth.

[Commercial Announcer]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them.

[Maria Bamford]

Don.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults. Extreme belief and manipulation from two mentally ill girlies who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

I wanted to say mentally ill mamas so badly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't. It's the M's. I just. The. It's the alliteration.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm so glad you didn't. I'm gonna forget you even mentioned it.

[Lola Blanc]

Mamas. All right. This week we're joined by legendary comic, actor and author of sure, I'll join Cult Maria Bamford. We're going to discuss her alarming OCD and intrusive thoughts she had as a kid, which primed her to later seek out support in the form of a variety of groups and the cultishness of 12 step programs like Debtors Anonymous and the various ones that we've all attended.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She'll share about her struggles with eating disorders, going to treatment in her 20s, the controversial Suzuki method by which Maria was taught to play the violin as a child, and. And which programs and treatments she's found most helpful for her mental health.

[Lola Blanc]

Lovely. And we're going to keep this short because this is a longer episode. Obviously, Maria is an icon and we wanted to talk to her for a long time. So, Megan, really, really quick. Do you have a culties thing?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I do. I tried to start my own cult this week. Basically my cat is very ill. She has vase cancer out of nowhere. So I was like, you know what? You know how cults and we've both been in cults, but they just cherry pick different modalities and like stick them all together, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was like, okay, dolphin sounds are gonna heal her. Reba McIntyre, she has like a little bit of Reba in her, you know, and like affirmations, like, I kept being like, you are not sick. And. And I made my own little call and the tumor in her face started to get smaller and I was like, oh, my God, did I just make up like a method to cure cats? And then I took her to the doctor today and he was like, wow, I've never seen cancer grow this fast before.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, okay. So, you know, you see what you want to see, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And I really cherry picked some shit. I thought I'd found the secret to curing cat cancer, but I was delusional. So anyway, my cat is an icon, just like Maria, Please, somebody out there go adopt a cat from your shelter. It will change your life forever. She's even saved my life when a robber was trying to break in. So go get yourself a cat. What about you? What's your cultiest thing?

[Lola Blanc]

It's not really anything other than that. I saw a post about this concept called the Seven Daughters of Eve.

[Maria Bamford]

Huh.

[Lola Blanc]

The post is like making an argument that heritability is that the word that I want is actually it goes through women because of mitochondrial DNA and I don't fucking understand it. And it seems like that book is highly oversimplified and like, maybe partially fictional in the scientific community. But anyway, I just saw it and I was like, if this were a cult and it were called the Seven Daughters of Eve and the premise of it was, oh, actually, like just women, I don't know, that feels like something I'd be into. And that's the extent of my culties thing because we're keeping it short today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The cult would just be women are the actual gods.

[Lola Blanc]

It traces back to several core clan mothers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sick. I'm in.

[Lola Blanc]

There's seven daughters of Eve that we all are allegedly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Say no more.

[Lola Blanc]

Their ancestor are all of our ancestors. So anyway, of course I would like pray to the seven daughters of Eve.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, no wonder you wanted to call us mentally ill mamas.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. I had got mamas on the mind.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you've got mamas on the mind. Okay, that makes sense. Well, my mom is Maria. Shall we talk to her?

[Lola Blanc]

Let's do it. Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

He is coming after my family.

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome, Maria Bamford, to Trust Me in the studio. Thank you so much for being with us. We're so excited.

[Maria Bamford]

We're so excited having me. I went through some of the. On your Instagram of some of the people you've covered for cults, and I'm just. I'm delighted that my book, which, interestingly enough, the publisher, they said, can we use this as a title because cult books sell better than anything and because that is a punchline to one of my jokes. Sure, I'll join your cult because I was invited to go to something called Life springs in the 90s.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I get you.

[Maria Bamford]

Mm. And I went. And then they started locking the doors, and I was like, hey, I gots to go. And they wanted me to. They're like, do you have a credit card? I'm like, nope. My poverty saved me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I always saved mine too, because if I had money, I would be living in the Scientology building a hundred percent.

[Lola Blanc]

And in every wellness cult, in every new age cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Every 12 step Cole. All of them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So lucky us.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. No cash. No cash. That's the key. Key.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It really is. Before we begin, I want to point out a few similarities Maria and I have.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Both blonde bombshell Comedians, obviously, 100% can't stop, won't stop. Also, both big Dave Barry fans.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yes, yes. When I was a kid.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Maria Bamford]

Same. I mean, now I get mad at myself. I'm like, come on, Maria. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, I don't remember.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He wrote for this Miami newspaper. Like, very funny comedy stories.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. He was a columnist, and it was just. It was just like slice of life things that I just go, oh, my God. Come on, have a little class.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But we didn't.

[Maria Bamford]

We didn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We loved it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Also, I love Andy Rooney too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, Andy Rooney. Don't even get me started. Also, both Midwest girls, too.

[Lola Blanc]

So I'm a Midwest girl. We're gonna have a listen. My ex was on her show, so.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, which one?

[Lola Blanc]

One of the Lucas brothers. Oh.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, they were very. That's all I have to say about that. I hope it was an excellent ending. Was there a good.

[Lola Blanc]

No, it was long and drawn out. But, you know, we're all good now. It's all good now. We made a short together, actually, after

[Megan Elizabeth]

we broke up, so.

[Maria Bamford]

Isn't that funny? Yeah. Like, I just. I'm going through it where I just finished a Divorce. And yeah, I love him far more now that it's over. Sometimes.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, sometimes it just. Sometimes it be like that, as they say.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, anyway, sorry I had to have something in common too. I had to interject.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, if anybody back there wants to join in, they're welcome to. But we will start with your experiences with cults.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. Okay. So you were saying before we were recording that some people were like, well, there's no real cult in here. But we are here to say a lot of these things are very cult y and we want you to tell us about some of them.

[Maria Bamford]

Now, the primary one that I'm still in, that I adore and I know it's illegal in the cult to say it, but I'm in Debtors Anonymous, which is very hot in most, the most expensive cities in the world. If you go to la, San Francisco, Johannesburg, Tokyo, it is popping off. People are into that 12 star program because it's impossible to make enough money to pay rent. But if you can make it a spiritual issue. Wait a minute. Anyways, I love 12 step programs because they're free. They are free. Now, of course, the issue is. Yeah, it just has all the problems that come with peers. Peers telling each other stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

I went to one Debtor's Anonymous meeting when I was really, really poor and my friends who were like new to 12 step were like, the only answer to anything is a 12 step program. So you have to go to Debtors Anonymous. And I was like, I don't relate to people who are spending a lot of money, don't have any.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're like, I'm just poor.

[Lola Blanc]

And then they were like, okay, try Under Earners Anonymous.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, I have that book that's rough trade.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God. I was like, I'm sorry, but I just can't identify as an under. I can't have this be part of my identity. So I didn't go back, but I did eventually stop under earning for a while.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, there's a bigger conversation we had about like just being an artist.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah, Everything like capitalism. Like there are these social issues that are. Yeah. And they call it. In 12 step programs, they call anything that can't be handled sexism, racism, colonialism, ableism. They call that an outside issue.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

So it can never be brought up. So that is really heartbreaking because you just go, well, clearly there's a hell of a lot of white people here.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Like, like if somebody shares, especially in the money related program, if they go, you know, it's a white guy saying you know, finally I knew my true worth and paid off a million. You're just like, yeah, well, we're not all going to be having that situation. It totally helped me because I moved to LA 30 years ago and I just didn't know how to have a full time job. So people, because I just lived it as a hippie and you know, would. My rent was very low in Minneapolis and I would just busk for. And nobody's busking in Los Angeles.

[Lola Blanc]

You'd busk?

[Maria Bamford]

I busk.

[Lola Blanc]

What kind of busking?

[Maria Bamford]

Playing the violin. Poorly. Oh, yes. Yeah. And bad news and I moved out to la and I just sunk so fast so far.

[Lola Blanc]

God.

[Maria Bamford]

Because like already had like 7,000 medical debt because I went to the Planned Parenthood and had a terrible allergic reaction. And yeah. Just all the stuff. Couldn't pay my rent. My landlord accepted sex for rent. It was just like, yeah. So it was like. And I had been in another 12 super crime. I'd been overused. Anonymous because I had had bulimia and that was suggested to me by a suicide hotline. Again, totally problematic, but. And yet free people you can call day or night who totally understand what you're talking about, who are like, hey, I. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to do my best, but I just had three extra large pizzas and you know, I mean, I wish I could get over there, but I don't feel well. Like it's. I like that peer counseling aspect to it where it's like nobody's looking down on you or watching you in the bathroom. It's like harm reduction.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Maria Bamford]

What can you do that's a little bit better than you did before? Like, I think one of the first suggestions somebody told me in Dadders Anonymous was like, call everyone, you know and see if they have a room to rent or like a couch so you're at least in a safe space. Like you're in a place where you're not gonna. There's not gonna be sexual abuse. And I was robbed and mugged in that apartment too, so.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my goodness.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. I mean it was like so serious and it was like. Or it felt. Felt serious.

[Lola Blanc]

I looked, yeah, that seems serious.

[Maria Bamford]

But I look in retrospect and you go, of course. Like, yeah. I mean, I lived Minneapolis. I mean, I didn't live in the greatest neighborhood in Minneapolis either, but it's like, yeah, it's just that sort of. I think I always had that assumption. And I grew up in Duluth, Minnesota, where, you know, on the pill hill side of town. You Know where my dad was a physician, so it's like, nothing. Nothing bad's ever happened to me. So it's like, why? What? Yeah, but that kind of common sense stuff that just wasn't coming to my brain because I was in so much panic. They said, you know, I remember. Yeah. Somebody in the program said, hey, you have. You have an English degree. You can type 50 words per minute. Why don't you try to get a job as a receptionist or a secretary? And I was like, well, how would I do that? Like, just really simple things that I just. Yeah, so in that way, it was extremely helpful in the way that, you know, it doesn't help a whole lot of other things, like mental health issues. Like, I know anytime I've had a mental health crisis, like, they've been like, why don't you work the steps again? Just feels like you haven't had a clean. Have you done a ninth? Have you done a ninth? And you're just like, yeah, that's. That's the part that's not great.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. When it's the answer to every problem, as opposed to the problem that you're there for, which I go to Al Anon sometimes.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yeah, Al Anon.

[Lola Blanc]

I should go more. I don't have the peer support because I'm too scared to talk to anything. It's very Al Anon of you.

[Maria Bamford]

But everyone's terf. But Al Anon, it can be hardcore.

[Lola Blanc]

Everyone's really type A and, like, they all know each other really well. And I'm like, okay, well, goodbye. I guess I won't. That's interesting, but it's nice to hear stories, and I find them very helpful because there are tendencies of people in that program that I very much relate to. But also, sometimes I will hear stories like that that are like, is it the answer to that problem you're having, or is that just like a normal life problem that you're applying this framework to?

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, this rigid. Like, the whole thing about, like, people have certain opinions about somebody who's an addict. Like, do you stop showing up for that person altogether? Or, you know, some people. Yeah, there's some sort of. And maybe this is a Los Angeles thing where they'll say, you know, that person was toxic and I just cut them out of my life. Nobody's toxic. Everybody's toxic. You know what I'm like, I do not cut people out of my life. Everybody goes home. I don't give a shit. You know, like, that makes me so mad. I love Al Anon for it. Really helps me with show business. Cause it feels like show business is an alcoholic. Like, it's like somebody coming home drunk who I love. I love show business. Like, I love how exciting it is. I love how it's really fun at parties. And then I just. Sometimes it's mean and it can't remember my name. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

The highs are so high, and damn, those lows are so low.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep. It'll just kick you down a flight of stairs.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

[Commercial Announcer]

Cape Fear, a new series is now streaming on Apple tv. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy award winner Javier Bardem and academy award nominee Amy Adams.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's coming after my family

[Commercial Announcer]

Kate Fear. Now streaming on Apple tv.

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Malcolm Glebel]

hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Maria Bamford]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Maria Bamford]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community, and ultimately, they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Maria Bamford]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels, are they enabled to create a deeper connection with our fans?

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari.

[Lola Blanc]

You as a child are so interesting. I mean, first you get your OCD diagnosis, which we both can also relate to. Oh, my gosh.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, yes.

[Lola Blanc]

We're all obsessive here. It's such a good trait and you developed an. Like, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and like some of the. Some of the stuff you were dealing with.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, well, I'm sure. Yeah, everybody has. I mean, I was very privileged childhood. Let's just put that out there. My parents were very liberal and down for. They. In the 70s, they sent me to a therapist, which I think that was very rare to the.

[Lola Blanc]

Ahead of time.

[Maria Bamford]

Ahead of its time. And I was. Yeah, I just stopped being able to sleep at night. Cause I was worried I was gonna rape or murder people. I watched a lot of tv and I wasn't even sure what those things were, but I was like, I'm probably gonna do it. Yeah. And I would clench my fists and just stay up all night trying to make sure that I didn't do that to my family. And then finally I told my family or I told my mom about it. And my mom's like, oh, God, honey. Well, it's okay if you're gay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All right.

[Maria Bamford]

So then, yeah, they sent me to a therapist and basically I just slept during those sessions. And the diet culture, which same thing we have now is still. Was still a thing. My mom was always on a diet. So I started dieting. And that just makes OCD worse because your brain isn't functioning at the full level. And yeah, you start making weird, weird choices. And. Yeah, so I think I was. I wasn't the vomiting bulimic. I was sort of an exercise bulimic where I'd, you know, not eat for five days, then binge for long, you know, then run 10 miles then. And that got worse and worse up until like the age of 19. And then I called the suicide hotline from college and they gave me the number for OA O A. And yeah, I ended up going through a treatment program when I was 20 later just because I just didn't know how to eat. And OA wasn't super helpful with that. Like, everyone's like, what's your triggers? Well, you gotta stay away from the trigger. Pretty soon you're just eating communion wafers and like Sunny Delight. Like, it's like, it's. So I went to a treatment program. They taught me, you know, how to just normalize eating everything. Yeah. And because there's some. Yeah, it's just a bunch of people trying to help each other and it can be a mess.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. So I've had really good experience in that. I haven't had the OCD thing. I don't think I dealt with that until about 35. I just was too ashamed to tell anybody all the weird thoughts I was having in my head. And. But once I googled it, I googled some of the thoughts I've been having. Was like, all this just OCD came up. Like the International OCD Foundation. They're like, yep, that's not weird.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're fine. It's the difference between OCD and somebody who's like, actually thinking those thoughts. Just like, the shame.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah. And. And it was really nice to hear that everybody has those thoughts. It's just that some people, you just go, oh. And then they never think. They go, oh, that was weird.

[Lola Blanc]

And they let it go.

[Maria Bamford]

They let it go. They don't go, oh, it's. That must mean something about me. And now it means I have to stay indoors and never open my eyes again because I have lasers, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I was telling Megan earlier about intrusive thoughts that I have about harming. About harming something I love very much

[Megan Elizabeth]

and that you would never do.

[Lola Blanc]

But it's never. But it fixates on the things that you value and the things that you aggressively don't want to do. It's like, what if I did that thing that I want to do less than anything on the earth? You know?

[Maria Bamford]

But yeah, it kills whatever you love. And like the postpartum, that's a classic thing that people be like, afraid I'm gonna smother my baby. I'm gonna hurt my baby in, you know, very specific ways that are just like, the thought is so awful. Cause your brain is so creative. It'll come up with the worst.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know.

[Maria Bamford]

And yeah, so it was really nice when I got help for that and all that. There's a lot of help online now through the OCD Foundation, International iocdf. They have support groups and then also the free resources and then there's some for profit groups that I think nocd.com I think is a place you can find treatment. But it is pricey.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Those specialized treatments will get you. But it's worth it.

[Lola Blanc]

It's worth it. It's worth it.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that that is. I mean, I think. So sad too, is that when things are. You can't get help because you don't have the money is just makes me

[Lola Blanc]

ill. Oh, I know, I know.

[Maria Bamford]

And that's what I love. I do like about 12 step groups and any kind of religious organization, you just go, well, there's the free cake, you know, like, that's pretty cool. You know, that's good. And it's a Place where you are welcome no matter what. Like, I used to go to these meetings on Sunset Boulevard, and oftentimes it was like a d. A meeting, but people who were. Who were just hanging out in the corner would come in just to sit down. And it just. It made me laugh. Just because you're just like, yeah, sure. I mean, you don't have a place to live, you're clearly in debt. You know, let's chit chat. And I have one guy who we were set up in a. Like a. A two person, non person sharing thing. And he looked like he was a little unwell. Anyways, I shared, and then he was gonna share, and then he said he was not, I don't think in 12 star programs at all. But he was just like, why. Why are you so sad? You're so pretty. Why are you so sad? And I was like, yeah, right on, man. What the fuck am I talk.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Cut to the chase there.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

And I know it's. You're not supposed to say your name so that people, if they don't like you, or let's say I all of a sudden start doing crack cocaine out in the parking lot. You know, they don't go, oh, it didn't work. But then I also think It's a weird 1935 idea about advertising. Like, yeah, it's not gonna work for some people. Yeah. I just don't think there's one solution for everybody.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, but I get very mad when you say that.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, God. Oh, I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you know, that's. That's when. And then people argue with me.

[Maria Bamford]

I'm a secretary of one meeting, and I am, guess what? General service rep to the World Service Conference.

[Megan Elizabeth]

My God, Maria, you really, really are doing the thing.

[Maria Bamford]

It is so deeply boring. And I think that's what meditation is all about, is just like sitting through a painful. Robert's Rules of Order business meeting. Two pros, two cons. Can we have the motion restated? Okay, I guess we are. Instead of one dozen donuts, we're gonna buy two dozen donuts from the treasury this week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's grounding.

[Maria Bamford]

It's helpful. No, no, no. It's really nice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So weird. I'll go in and I'll just pick the Epstein files. And they're like a vision for you. And I'm like, okay.

[Maria Bamford]

And it's so. Yeah, it's very. Because there aren't a lot of. I know. I went to a church when I lived in Flos Feliz for a while. I talked to the priest. And I said, hey, man, is it okay? I'm an atheist, and I am. I don't. I don't believe in God, but I believe. I believe in cognitive behavioral science. I believe that looking into other people's eyeballs is useful. And I said, hey, can I just come to the church just to, you know, look into people's eyes and bring my dog? And he said it was fine. Cause I think those groups, it is really helpful, like, to sing together.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sing together is a peak experience. Do you still go at all?

[Maria Bamford]

I don't. I went to the Unitarian Church, but then Unitarian. The unicorns. The one I went to was on Orange Grove Boulevard. And here's the problem. The new person that they have wanted us all to kind of hold hands and hug halfway through the thing, and I was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it's like a woman. It's a woman running the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She should know better.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, it's like they're teenagers here. You don't tell adults they can hug. Like, no, right? Everybody gets a choice. You get to go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, not. Aria's doing the anti hug movement right now. For listeners who can't see.

[Lola Blanc]

I also went to the Unitarian. Well, I went to the one in Koreatown a couple times, which I also. Cause I'm like you. I'm like. I don't think. I'm not. I'm a science gal, you know? But I want that community, and I want that a little bit of structure and people to be helping each other. Seems nice to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm a magical thinker. So I really love a good, like, pie in the sky.

[Maria Bamford]

I don't mind, like, a spiritual, like, if somebody wants to, like, pour some. What is that called? The. There's, like, waters, and then they blow smoke in your face.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, cleansing, cleansing. Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

I've had it happen to me where they jingle bells. I'm like, right on. That feels good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Can't possibly harm me.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly.

[Maria Bamford]

I've already eaten Haagen Dazs today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I want to talk about your family a bit. Your first original cult. But before I do, I will just say I was the normal bulimic type. And I never knew that your bulimic type actually existed. I thought that that was, like, a rumor that books would put in there. Cause that's so much extra effort that I'm.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, my aunt was already a vomiting bulimic, and so that was like a. No, no. In our family of, like, don't do, like, aunt Jolie did. And so I'm like, well, I clearly can't go do that, but I'm gonna put some weights on my legs and walk into the blizzard for two or three hours and see if I can work off this ice cream cake.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, just the sheer energy to be able to pull that off.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, yeah, it's all horrible, but your Aunt Jolie is actually very fascinating. We jotted her down because she seems like she was in a cult herself.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yeah, totally. She was out in est, and then she was in Diamondheart. And she was in Diamondheart until she passed. And Diamond Art, from what I can tell.

[Lola Blanc]

What is Diamond Heart?

[Maria Bamford]

I have no idea. It's a very inexpensive cult. So it's. I went to one workshop and one of the exercises was one person talks for 35 minutes, and then the other person talks for 35 minutes, and you're matched up with somebody. And it was kind of stressful. So I don't. She loved it, so I don't know. And she made friends with it. But I don't think it's not a big cult because it's not a lot of fun.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, that sounds really cool. Is that the Lazarus one that involved Lazarus?

[Maria Bamford]

No, Lazarus is this guy. He's out of Florida. He started channeling a prophet called Lazarus. And then I wanna say there was something about him killing his wife or something. Anyways, she. My aunt channeled voices or said she did, and. Which is hilarious. Cause I do voice, you know, it's just. Yeah. It's genetic, so. But, yeah, so I think. I don't know what was going on with my aunt, but she was a very. Kind of a cold person. She was not very warm. And I hope I'm different from her. Like, I remember I moved to la and she invited me over to their place in Thousand Oaks and said, I just needed to let you know that I consider you biologically related, but I have chosen family and I have no obligation to you. And I'm like, okay, thank you. So I should head out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're like, I just slept. A Thousand Oaks Aunt Jolie.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. And then she made me. We made a vegan dinner where there was just enough food. There was just enough food for each person. And then she had me do an enneagram test where I was a seven. And then she sent me back with a garbage bag filled with Super Tampax because she had just gone through menopause. I was like, I don't know. It feels like we're chosen family now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Really?

[Maria Bamford]

I've gone through the hoop.

[Lola Blanc]

I've gotten through it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So what was your original family unit like that? I think all of our. I think every person in the world is in their family's cult, you know?

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, of course.

[Lola Blanc]

Parents are children's cult leaders.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, they're your cult.

[Lola Blanc]

You have to listen to them.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, this is normal. This is. Yeah, this is how we do things. And yeah, you don't realize how fucked up it is until, like, you go out in the world and you're like, oh, yeah, let me see. My mom did her best, but she was pretty whipped. I think she had a bit of manic depression. She would get really obsessed over cleanliness and.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, the Suzuki Method.

[Maria Bamford]

Suzuki Method.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you tell us what that is?

[Maria Bamford]

Well, if you've ever tried to teach a child the violin, it's out of Japan. And what they discovered is that kids learn languages at such an early age because they have to survive. They have to. Yeah, they have to be able to communicate when they're hungry, cold, or whatever it is. So somebody said, why don't we start teaching them music at the age of two, because then they'll have something else to hustle for. So that's the thing. You start at the age of two and you are taught a stringed instrument or the piano or whatever it is, and you learn by ear. So you have to. Those songs are played over and over and over and over again. And then you're about 16 years in. Cause your parents have paid for these lessons. And they're so proud of you that you have this freakish talent that you feel like you can't quit. And that's where it becomes a cult, where it's. I know some people have had a great experience with it. They never ask, oh, do you like this song? Do you like this music? Yeah. As a person, you know, I lose myself in creative activities, like with comedy and stuff. I feel like, oh, I really enjoy that. Nobody ever asked, oh, did you really enjoy that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Concerto. You practice for six hours. I mean, you just can't. I think just like acting. You should not. Kids should not be acting before the age of, you know, before their parents. You know, self esteem is associated with their skill level. Like, I just. That. I don't know. I just don't. That really worries me. I know it's good to start young, but I think only for kids who really are drawn to it, you know. I wasn't drawn to it. My mom said, well, they wanna play the violin or do ballet. And I was like, ballet sucks.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Violin it is.

[Maria Bamford]

Violin it is. I don't know what it is, so.

[Lola Blanc]

And I picture it like that. Wait, why am I blanking on what the movie is called? Not my tempo.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That one. Whiplash.

[Lola Blanc]

Whiplash. Was it whiplash your whole childhood?

[Maria Bamford]

It wasn't like that. No. I mean, I wasn't that high. Yeah. I wasn't that good for one thing. But yeah, that same feeling of pressure. And what I realize now, for absolutely no reason, like, I wasn't good. Nobody in our program was that good.

[Lola Blanc]

You were good enough to busk, though.

[Maria Bamford]

Good enough to busk. But, like, she, the teacher who ran this whole program knew that. She knew none of us are gonna be making a living as a classical violinist. So, like, take the gas. Like what? Like, why are we, you know, getting disappointed in children? Yeah. But also, I've never had children, so I have no idea.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I'm sure, like, day one, I'd be like, play the violin. I don't have them either, but I

[Lola Blanc]

wish my parents had made me play piano. Cause they had us take lessons. Cause a lot of Mormons take piano lessons. At least they did where I grew up. I have not fact checked that. But where I grew up, a lot of Mormons took piano. And eventually I think I was like. I didn't like being forced to do it, so I stopped playing. But now I'm like, I'm a singer. I should be able to play piano. Why didn't they make me do it?

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But also, maybe I wouldn't like music as much if that had happened.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hey, everything happens for a reason.

[Maria Bamford]

Everything happens.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I heard that in the program. I do think that OCD thinking comes from having a lot of pressure about something stupid.

[Maria Bamford]

Okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That there's some. You're supposed. There's a right way to do things.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

It's gotta be perfect.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's like.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, some part of your brain kind of knows but, like, why? And then it asks that. And you try to be like, shut up. Because you can't think that thought. And then you kind of go to.

[Lola Blanc]

It does seem like a lot of people coming out of colds. A lot of people we've talked to, like, seem to exhibit OCD symptoms that, like, who knows if they would have had that before? It's hard to say. Like, some of us are born with it. And maybe she's born with it. Maybe it was induced by the cold.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. What type of Mormonism were you born into? I'm sure you've talked about it, but

[Lola Blanc]

I yeah, well, mainstream originally. And then When I was 12, my mom and I believed in a self proclaimed prophet. And that's a whole other story. Oh, shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[Maria Bamford]

yeah. My parents, they were just Episcopalians, so it was basically like, just look nice, like, keep it high and tight. And no, we aren't gonna do any of the things where you invite the poor for dinner.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Like, I would often ask, I'd go, why aren't we inviting the schizophrenic guy over for supper? Cause it seems like he could use a meal. And honey, we're not gonna invite Francis. The man is building a bridge. He says he's building a bridge around the world.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's like convenient Christianity, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

It seems like for you, a lot of this came from your own brain. Like, you write in the book about how you got obsessed with Richard Simmons.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Maria Bamford]

I love that.

[Lola Blanc]

And like mug cakes. You were making mug cakes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That really stood out to you. You've been on the mug cake thing since we've read this song.

[Lola Blanc]

I just discovered mug cake two years ago. I don't understand how she knew about them so young.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, if you just access to the baking materials, if you're Mormon, you gotta. I mean, you got your flour, your sugar, your egg, your milk. Scoot, scoot, scoot, scoot, scoot. You know, maybe cocoa, Mix it up. Butter. You put that in a microwave, something's gonna happen.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, you got. Sounds delicious.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's. No, it's not very good. But you're binging. You're just trying to, you know, hurt yourself. So it's not about the flavor at a certain point.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right. Do you feel like you have a little cult leader in your brain that's like you have to do this exactly this way?

[Maria Bamford]

For sure. Like, I mean, like right now I'm. And I'll be honest, like, I've been having some problems with depression. Just. Yeah. Feeling really down. I don't know, whatever. Is the divorce or who knows? Like, we went through the fires in Altadena and. Yeah. And I think, oh, oh, I. But this is so dumb that I'm feeling this bad, like, when everything's great, you know, Like I. I'm just, you know, things couldn't be going better. I have lots of friends. I. I have a very happy relationship with my. My ex husband. And like, I shouldn't. Yeah. I shouldn't need help, you know, and then it's like, well, but Maria, if you're thinking all the things that you think of when you're depressed. You gotta call somebody, you know, you've gotta call, so. And I have co. Called all the people and called all my friends and, you know. But there's some sort of thing where I go, oh, you shouldn't ever need help again.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Or ongoing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Like, that's. That's. That's embarrassing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah, I mean, I relate. Where you feel like you've used up the goodwill of your friends.

[Maria Bamford]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, oh, my God, I'm in the dumpster again. I'm so sorry. You all have to help me again. And it's like you just to want to be on your best behavior for a while, and then it's like, oh, I need you guys again. Sorry.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, totally.

[Maria Bamford]

But that's what everybody. Yeah, that's. I mean, you're gonna bore and irritate people who love you and Vice versis.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So, Yeah, I still struggle with that one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wouldn't be friends.

[Lola Blanc]

I just don't. I just don't tell anyone. I tell my mom. I tell my mom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's good.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And I subject whoever I'm dating to it generally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I asked my mom the other day, I said, is it ethical to be happy in a world in which there's so much suffering? And she goes, I don't know.

[Maria Bamford]

I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like, okay, okay. Okay, cool. I'll take that one to my friends then.

[Maria Bamford]

That's a great question, though. Like, I think about that. Yeah. Like, I just did a benefit last night for kids who are in the internment camps, who getting money for who. People don't have any money to buy food in Texas. One of those. Those detention centers. And, you know, it's like, okay, well, we had. We did some comedy on Zoom for an hour and a half, raised $4,000. Good job, everybody.

[Lola Blanc]

Yep.

[Maria Bamford]

And then it's like. Like I go, well, is that enough? I don't. I don't think that's enough. I mean, if I were gonna be honest, I should be out at the Adelanto center every 24 hours checking in on people out there, which is an hour and a half from la. Like, there's never enough.

[Lola Blanc]

It does never feel like enough. Especially yet when you're someone who actually cares, which a lot of people don't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I know. And if you have a little bit of ocd, it really makes it a lot worse. And there's no, like, whatever good I do, I feel even worse than not doing it at all. So I still do it. But it's just like.

[Lola Blanc]

It's intense if you aren't literally devoting your life. But even if you were to devote your life, like, the amount of good you could do as an individual is still so, you know, like.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, and there's. There's a couple stories. There's that one guy who he gave away. He had millions of dollars. He gave everything away. And then he started giving. He started donating organs. Stop. Yes. And he sort of traveled. I think I wanna say only by walking. But, yeah, he had been a million multimillionaire. But then, yeah, had, I think, a form of OCD where it's like, well, man, you can't. At a certain point, you can't give everything or you're gonna die. Yeah, Yeah. I do this thing with money. I give 11% of income to share.

[Lola Blanc]

I wrote a note about that.

[Maria Bamford]

It's so ocd, it's like. And I go over the calculations over and over again, like, what's truly 11%? Am I really giving enough? Should I count that?

[Lola Blanc]

Tell us why it's 11, though.

[Maria Bamford]

It's 1% better than the Jews, Christians or Muslims. And is that virtue signaling like a lighthouse?

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you're 1% more than.

[Lola Blanc]

Than religious.

[Maria Bamford]

I'm gonna. I'm making it in. I mean, I'm making it into all the heavens. Heavens is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You sure are.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that is one. Yeah. It feels like there is an answer. We're gonna land on an answer for exactly the right amount of good to do. But of course there isn't an answer. And all we're doing is doing our best, which means we have to live in the gray. But nobody likes that when you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then that's where we join cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. That's why we give us the answers.

[Maria Bamford]

And I do love that. I like. I don't know if you watched the most recent Netflix cult thing. That was so horrifying with the kids. Little kids in it.

[Lola Blanc]

In the one.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

The one about my mom.

[Maria Bamford]

No, no.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Maria Bamford]

No, no. Is it. It's on Netflix. It's with. Oh, gosh. What is it? It's not Keep Sweet. No Bay. But it's just.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, Trust me. That's my mom.

[Maria Bamford]

That's your mom.

[Lola Blanc]

Christine Marie is my mom.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, my God. Oh. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, it's okay. A lot of people don't. I'm in it for like two seconds. And people who know who listen to this podcast didn't know that it was my mom.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, you just go, oh, it is so nice to be a part of a group. And like, everyone eating meals together. I mean, like the Duggars or whatever, you just go, oh, I can see how that would be fun. But then. Yeah, the horrifying, like, oh, no. Yeah. And how close everything is. Like, I remember we had a teacher in high school who he would really befriend all the theater students, mostly the girls. And he would take. He would drive us all home from school or after play practice. And of course, of course, like, it turned into, like, oh, God, like, he would drive me home and he'd spend like an hour telling me about, like, 17th century literature. And I'm like, okay, okay. I guess I'm supposed to listen to this bullshit. And I wish he would just compliment me again on what a great actor I am. But, yeah, like, how vulnerable we all are to somebody who says they care and is trying to do something good. What's best for us. Or somebody who says they're a prophet. I mean.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Do you think that your teacher was, like, grooming you or was he just boring you?

[Maria Bamford]

I mean, there's just no way. It's so gr. I mean, I don't know if he would say that. I'm sure he would say, I just thought you were a very talented kid. But I think, no, like, you don't do that. You don't spend that amount of time with children away from their parents, talking to them about adult things. It's weird. That's creepy. I'm grateful that my neighbor actually reported him being in the car with me. Our neighbor told my mom was like, Mr. Blackburn is spending an hour and a half with your daughter in the car, you know, on the street. And I've seen it and I just. I'm concerned. And were you were driving?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why was it so long or just sitting in the car?

[Lola Blanc]

Just sitting in the car. Sitting in the car. Oh, weird.

[Maria Bamford]

So. And I was like 16, 17, and. And my mom's like, rhea, is something going on? Is there BlackBerry? I'm like, no, he's just talking. Stop talking about fucking and boring shit. And then occasionally he tells me I'm a good performer. And that's all I was waiting for. I was just waiting for him to say, you have a real gift.

[Lola Blanc]

I just want to be told we're good. We want to be told how to live and what the answers are and that we're good.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Starkly missing from modern day life, so.

[Maria Bamford]

And I'm so sorry. Cause I don't mean to cross back over and tear, but has Al Anon helped you with that experience of, like, detaching from, like, are you still in contact with people who live in the community or.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, so I didn't grow up in that extreme of a community, so our little cult experience, which was years, years ago. Years ago when I was a kid, ended pretty quickly, so.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

And that was more like this one particular, extremely manipulative man who now has a whole following, but. So it doesn't necessarily connect to that so much. But do I love a fucked up guy? I do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Certainly do.

[Lola Blanc]

Do I love someone I can fix? I sure do.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Yeah. The idea of transformation. I tried to write a joke about this, about divorce. Like, my husband and I, number one, both of us wanted to get married. We both wanted to have that experience, I think, of being married. And also, like, he's a lovely, very funny guy, but he has a very different way of seeing the world, in my opinion, a darker way. I see it in a very fluffy way, which. We're both wrong. We're both wrong. The world is not either all dark, nor all light, but we both, I think, thought we would change the other person or the other person would change, and instead we both just doubled down, unfortunately. But I think I went in going, oh, I'm gonna help this person see the world in a wonderful way. Or what?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I.

[Maria Bamford]

And basically that is saying, oh, I think you're wrong. I wish I'd not done that.

[Lola Blanc]

I think I know more than you. Yeah, I think I can.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah, both people are, like, great. As soon as they see the light, they'll understand my point of view. And, like, I think there's this really interesting book on relationships where it's like, when you first enter one, you both think that you're the baby and the other one's the adult. And, like, that's how. And then you both realize that you're trying to be the babies and are making the other person the adult and you hate each other because you're like, be the adult. I'm the baby as I'm. Right. And I was like, yep, that's. That makes sense. But, yeah, all that attachment stuff is just. Yeah, it makes. It makes these groups work extra hard, and that's extra bad.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like. I think I had insecure attachment. And then my mom wasn't really. She didn't really pay attention that much. Like, I don't think she would have had children had it not been the time. I just. I think we were kind of boring to her, like. And so in order to get her attention, you had to do something impressive. Play the violin. My sister ended up going to med school. Had four kids, you know, had an insanely beautiful, gorgeous house, like. And, you know, once I started doing show business, my mom was like, oh, well, well, well.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She liked it.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yeah. She was on her deathbed, and I was like, there. And my mom said, honey, you've gotta go. You've gotta go, because you just got an offer from Meredith Vieira to do 25 words or less. It's a game show. You get back to la. And I'm like, oh, my God, what's wrong with you? Like, yeah, I was like, no, I'm. It turns out I'm gonna stay here. But, yeah, my mom loved show business. She just. Yeah. Loved a shiny object, but, yeah, there's this sense of kind of like, you've gotta earn your keep kind of feeling, I think.

[Lola Blanc]

So she is kind of your original cult leader, as you write in the book.

[Maria Bamford]

They all are. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Not mine.

[Maria Bamford]

Mine. So your mom did puppets, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Okay. So.

[Lola Blanc]

And so did I.

[Maria Bamford]

You did puppets, too?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ventriloquism.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

So great.

[Lola Blanc]

Would you like to see it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm doing it. I. Dang it. Almost.

[Maria Bamford]

I think I just saw it. I think I'm doing it, too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You guys think I'm doing it.

[Lola Blanc]

You guys are so good at ventriloquism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow, this is really weird. I really am not. Mouth.

[Lola Blanc]

You're also not saying all the. All of the letters, but honestly, pretty good. Yeah, that was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That was like, a skill I did.

[Lola Blanc]

Not good for. No. For having never. Never tried. No skill. It's honestly pretty easy to do ventriloquism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, don't say that. It is not.

[Maria Bamford]

It is not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, it is.

[Maria Bamford]

Nina Conti. Do you know her?

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Maria Bamford]

She is a very famous ventriloquist out of London.

[Lola Blanc]

She's.

[Maria Bamford]

She's great. She's incredible.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I thought I knew all the ventriloquists.

[Maria Bamford]

Nina Conti.

[Lola Blanc]

Nina Conti.

[Maria Bamford]

Nina Conti.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, she's cool.

[Lola Blanc]

She does look cool.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She's like a gymnast.

[Lola Blanc]

I was not a cool ventriloquist. No, I had a giant lollipop puppet that I did bring out for a screening last year that I had because they were like, you have to introduce your film with something besides a Q and A. Like, do something else. And they were like, please do ventriloquism for us. So I busted out my lollipop puppet. Smart. It was a hit. You guys, of course.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Come on.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, my God. Come on. You gotta bring out a puppet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, you say in your book that people ask you to play the violin sometimes at parties, and you're like, that's all the way off.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, and also, that's a party killer. I mean, somebody playing the violin.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, it depends on what you're playing.

[Maria Bamford]

Depends on what you're playing. If you're playing something insane, that's great. But I'm not that good. I'm not that good. So it was. No, it's just sort of painful, like, oh, that's cool that you can do that to such an extent.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you just don't do it anymore?

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, no, no, no. When I moved to LA 30 years ago, there were two other women doing violin and standup at the same time. There was a woman named June Melby and then another gal who I never ended up meeting. But I was like, oh, my God, I can quit. I can quit. And so then I just. I ditched the violin. But.

[Lola Blanc]

But, oh, well, I love the violin.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, dude, I know. I love it if somebody else is playing it. That's so good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I do think that that's a pretty serious cult. The way you describe it in the book. It's mind numbing.

[Maria Bamford]

Yes. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's intense.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. And there's no questioning in it. It's like. There's no, like, hey, wait, why am I staying for eight weeks at a international music camp?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Maria Bamford]

By myself?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I'm.

[Maria Bamford]

I'm in a log cabin practicing for four hours a day. And what is the end game here? Like, the end game? I wish somebody had said it's because I wasn't that good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So.

[Maria Bamford]

Unless I don't believe you. No, no, no. I mean, I believe you, but there's levels of, like, if a kid isn't enjoying it, why are you pushing them farther? Cause that. That's the crazy part where you just go, yeah, there's. Unless they love it and can't get enough. Awesome. Oh, my God, keep doing it. But, yeah, if you're just going, oh, I just want to get better. But that's me. That's me. I know some people like to improve and that's fun for them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, speaking of improvement, Dale Carnegie. Nice. Thank you. You joined the cult of Dale Carnegie with your father?

[Maria Bamford]

Yes, yes. My dad was a depressive, and so he would sign himself up for certain things, and I was not doing well in high school, and so he signed me up. We both went to Dale Carnegie and it was. I think it was probably on the edge of me going into a hypomanic episode because I felt so fired up. Like, you do some public speaking, but it's also about kind of handling social anxiety. It teaches you how to, you know, you don't criticize, condemn, or complain. You compliment people. The sweetest sound to a person's ear is the sound of their own name. So you say people's names. Hi. Maria. Maria. What do you do, Maria do? Gosh, I really love your eyeglasses. Maria.

[Lola Blanc]

Maria.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We did it on accident.

[Maria Bamford]

You did it.

[Lola Blanc]

We did do it.

[Maria Bamford]

We did.

[Lola Blanc]

And for folks who don't know who Dale Carnegie is, he wrote how to Win Friends and Influence People.

[Maria Bamford]

It's a very classy. From the 1920s or 30s, and still, it totally works. You can't do it rote, because otherwise it sounds a little spooky. I remember I brought those skills to college, and everyone was like, stop talking like that. Why are you saying my name? Getting me to say yes to questions.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What were some of the teachings?

[Lola Blanc]

Just, like.

[Maria Bamford]

Just like. I think, expecting gratitude. Like, just sort of like these. Accept Buddhist sort of acceptance things of like. Yeah, people aren't gonna like it. 99 out of a hundred, you're not gonna make the sale. But then one, you just need that one. And I used it in, like. Yeah. It was junior year, and because of the OCD I had, I was very frightened of talking to people. And so it just helped me get to know everyone's names and have very surface connections with everybody. And guess what that meant. I was the winner. Frolic queen. Yes. I was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hell yes.

[Maria Bamford]

Hell, yeah. So all you need to do is. Yeah. Ask people how they're doing or any. Compliment them on something. It was the first way I got a boyfriend. I complimented him, like, every day, and he's just like, what is going on? Like. But he didn't know the machinations.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Maria Bamford]

That I was learning in the basement of the Duluth Public Library with a bunch of business people.

[Lola Blanc]

Do we think every cult leader has read that book? Do we think that that's, like, an effective.

[Maria Bamford]

It's good.

[Lola Blanc]

Have you read it, Megan?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, but what's the new book that everybody's. It's like how to Be a Sociopath, Essentially. It's, like, very popular in the manosphere.

[Lola Blanc]

Laws of the 48 laws of power.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Yeah. That one's creepy. It's like, leave people fearing for your. No, I mean, I just saw an article about it, and I was like, it's so sad.

[Lola Blanc]

When someone tells me they've read that book, I get concerned.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah. No, I was like, this is. It's like how to be soulless.

[Lola Blanc]

How to have power over people.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of. I think the next generation of that, unfortunately, isn't like, connecting and complimenting. It's dominating and nagging and being like, you're not enough. And then you get the power.

[Maria Bamford]

I was on a set earlier this year, and, yeah. And it was really scary. It was, like, not really unpleasant. And I was like, wow. I wonder if this is a way of living. Like this person who's in charge of the set. Cause it's clearly they are all in on their point of view for how this is going. Like, just mean. Just mean. And I was like, wow. And it's been working for a long time because the person's very successful in, you know, so you just go, God, I guess I'm doing it all wrong.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, oh, well, guess I'll take my free waters and my smart popcorn.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, though.

[Maria Bamford]

Back to my trailer.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like we're starting to turn against those people. The other day I had lunch with a friend who was telling me about someone who I love as an actor, who I learned is very, very mean. Had never heard that before. And apparently word is spreading and no one wants to give that very talented, very, very talented person jobs anymore because people are eventually getting to be like, let's just not have people yelling at people anymore on set.

[Maria Bamford]

I don't know. It's not. I didn't see it in this one. I was just like, oh, this person's worked for years. And there's all the reports out there that say they're douche. And everyone was like, let me stop recording.

[Lola Blanc]

I need to know who it is.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same with yours.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, it's. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's just sort of sad. And I'm mad at myself. I think I'm mad at myself that I didn't at least say something while I was there. Just like. Cause I've got nothing to lose. Like, what do I got to lose to go up and tell this person, hey, stop it. Like, just stop. Like, what? I have nothing to lose. Like, they could have fired me. Like, who cares? And I did not have the courage. I just didn't have the courage. And I was just like, oh, I love my insurance. So I'd prefer to just shit talk them anonymously on a podcast.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, when someone's being mean. It's just hard, like when someone's being mean in a position of authority. You know, even though obviously very successful and you probably don't need the job, there's still.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, and. Yeah. And the feelings. Yeah. That needing like far as capitalism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Because that's like the never ending monster of how much money you need. And that's really interesting in da. It's like you'll talk to some people who are like, yeah, I live on a limited budget, I have disability and I just love it. You know, I'm just, you know, who are really enjoying their lives but are kind of at peace around money. And then there are people who have millions of dollars who are depressed or anxious or really grabby. Yeah. I've dated guys who are like still mad about some second house that they had in 1999. It's just like, shut the fuck up. Second house?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

What are you talking about?

[Lola Blanc]

Like, I mean, we talk about this all the time, but American capitalism is so cult like, it convinces so many of us that in order to be worthy, we have to. To achieve this unattainable thing. Elon Musk is not a happy person.

[Maria Bamford]

Sorry.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's not only that you don't get the reward if you don't do it. And this is true of so many cults. You get so punished if you don't do it. I remember being younger and being like, I'm gonna rely on the universe and fuck the man and fuck the capitalistic state and all these things. I was like 20 something and then I went to the dentist two years later and they were like, you have $7,000 worth of cavities. Cause I hadn't been going to the dentist. And like, you didn't apply for. And you're like, fuck.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's. Oh yeah, it's coercive. You have to comply.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, 100%. I owe thousands of dollars right now because I went to the emergency room. Sorry, I went to the emergency room.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, and here's the tip. If you ever want to pay off debt in a very slow way that's irritating to people. Mine already went to collections my medical debt. So you send them a letter every month acknowledging the debt and saying, you can't contact me by phone, only by mail. Cause sometimes they'll. It's illegal. There's still protections, consumer protections that they can't call you if they're calling you at all. So then you send either a letter or payment every month. And I did it for eight years and sometimes would send $2, which they would send back. And anyway, yeah, you don't have to pay debts off the way they have you, especially if your credit score is already low. But also for hospitals, hospitals have to charge off a certain amount that isn't going to be paid back. So while you're in the hospital, if you can have someone talk on your own behalf and go, hey, they don't have insurance or any money, and then leave immediately once you're open.

[Lola Blanc]

Good to know.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I hate that we live in a

[Lola Blanc]

system where that is the. We have to think about that, though, where we have to think of tricks for how to pay less money for our healthcare. Sorry, I was having stabbing pain in my abdomen that day.

[Maria Bamford]

No, no, no.

[Lola Blanc]

My bad.

[Maria Bamford]

It's. It's. No, it's. It's. Yeah. No, it's not good. It's not good. So sad. I'm sorry, Raven.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Dare you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I. I once had a panic attack and I ran into the Rustic Inn, and I was like, I'm dying. It was like the middle of the day.

[Maria Bamford]

What a good place to have one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

They called 911 and, I mean, I was like, melting down. And I was like, I'm not on drugs. I'm a normal girl. Please help me. And the ambulance comes up. They guessed my age and weight correctly, so I was like, you guys should work for the circus.

[Lola Blanc]

Stay away from me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then they were like, you're having a panic attack. And they drove me home and said, don't tell anyone.

[Maria Bamford]

I had that happen as well. Like, ambulances are so nice. Cause they know it'll not have charged me mean so much money for, like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you're already having anxiety.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's.

[Maria Bamford]

That's crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

That's really nice of them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know, I know.

[Maria Bamford]

That's a great story.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you. So the system sometimes is nice.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, people. I wouldn't say it's the system. People sometimes are nice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also, they were the hottest guys I've ever seen. I was wearing a sports bra with holes in it. They had to take off my shirt to get my, like, the little things on me to take my heart.

[Lola Blanc]

The holes are hot, though.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, they weren't like nipple or, like, pool holes. They were like moth holes. You know what I mean? They were like, gross. And, yeah, I was just burned in here. But, yes, when.

[Lola Blanc]

This is not related to anything. But when you thought you were dying, what did you think it was? A heart attack? Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I had taken to Adderall that day. And I'd gone to the Los Feliz Library and I read Chris Farley's book that's like 300 pages long. It's not by him. It's about him.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I finished it. And the librarian goes, goes, did you just read that whole book? And I go, yeah. And she goes, that was really fast. And I thought, okay, was it too fast? And then I, like, exited my body and was like, I died. I'm dying. I don't know why it freaked me out so much. And then I was trying to walk home as fast as I could, and then it just overtook me.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I completely.

[Maria Bamford]

Have you read Anxiety Land by Gemma Coral?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Maria Bamford]

New graphic novel, just out in hardcover. Gemma Coral is a hilarious artist illustrator who wrote a beautiful memoir, all in pictures. And it's all about panic attacks. It's really beautiful.

[Lola Blanc]

Cool.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Panic attacks are the worst.

[Lola Blanc]

When I went to the ER for my panic attack, it was because I thought my brain or something. I thought I had hit my head and that I just didn't know that I had a brain injury and that something was terribly wrong. I was gonna die. Cause of my brain.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

God.

[Lola Blanc]

I didn't. It was fine.

[Maria Bamford]

You're fine. Yeah, I had a couple. And. Yeah. Cause I. I had this idea I was gonna move to Australia with. I was moving in with an Australian clown. It was. It's a great idea.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Clowning's very hot now.

[Lola Blanc]

It is hot now.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. And this isn't. This is probably 20 years ago, so. Not as hot. Not as hot. And. And this guy was occasionally did meth, so anyways, not one of my well thought out idea, but I started having panic attacks and I didn't know what they. Yeah. It's just a weird thing when you don't know what they are, but once you know what they are, it's like, oh, okay. But they can still keep happening. I only had, like, three, so that. It sounds miserable. If they keep happening.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's happening. And people say, well, stop thinking about bad things. And I'm like, I'm literally thinking about nothing sometimes I'm literally just like, oh, do I want this peanut butter? And then I'm like. Like, I'm dying. And also, my heart starts telling an

[Lola Blanc]

obsessive person to stop thinking about something. I'm sorry.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's just weird.

[Lola Blanc]

Then all you're gonna do is think about that thing worse and worse and worse.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The brain is just a weird thing where you can be consciously thinking something but unconsciously, like, freaking out about Something. And you don't even know what. I don't even know what. Caused some panic attacks that I've had in my life. Now I'm not on medication. I appreciate in your story how seriously you've taken your mental health. And there's so many people who have grown up, like Lila and I have or whatever, high control groups and, you know, like, therapy is often looked down in those groups. And it sounds like you were sent earlier than most people because your parents were.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, they were down. They were down. They were kind of hippies and they were like, we're just gonna send you over to this woman. She's a social worker, and she'll let you lay on her couch. You can just take a nap

[Lola Blanc]

and.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah. What were you in? What was the situation you were in?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, it's called the two by twos. It's a cult.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, for Noah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, in Matthew 10, it says Jesus sent his disciples out two by two.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I know. I would have thought Noah too.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So that's a little cult that's starting to come into the news more and more. It's not a little call, actually. It's kind of slightly big. And the ministers live with us, so you can see how that would be a problem.

[Lola Blanc]

Little known, little known.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Little known, Little known, but notorious. And. Yeah. I'm so impressed with how you take care of yourself.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, you know who's gonna do it for you?

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, God, no. And, well, and Los Angeles makes it easy. You know, It's a very welcoming community here. Everybody's, you know, groovy. And. I mean, some of the things like that are embarrassing, I think about having. And it's. It's not. Yeah, it's not a huge disability, but, you know, like, I have. I have a bit of a tremor, you know. Oh, my God. Don't wanna take a beta blocker, please. Go ahead. Make it go away. Or that. I don't. I can't. I can't work on a TV show full time. Like, I. I need, like 12, 13 hours of sleep. I can't do it. I can do a guest star. I can show up for that and. But I need a lot of sleep. The meds that I'm on that seem to work are ones that really take me out of the game for 12 hours. And I, I, I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish I could do that kind of work, but I just can't. And it's okay. It's okay. Or I try to tell myself that that's okay. And I have plenty of other friends who have the artistic community just so much warmer than other jobs. Where other jobs are like, we cannot build a ramp to this, you know? But, yeah, and I love about the Internet is you can find your people. Like, I mean, people come to see me because I have talked about mental health issues and am not going to be perfect on stage, which I'm grateful for that and thank you. Beautiful Internet that never does anything wrong.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The perfect place on earth.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. And also, yeah, I'd have very supportive family, all that stuff. So I'm. Yeah, a lot of things have really worked out for me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think that if one of these support systems started getting really culty, do you think you'd end up in a real one?

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, moving in somewhere. I don't think so. At this late date, like. Yeah. Have you ever been to the Eco Village?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Maria Bamford]

It's in Filipino Town. Historic Filipino Town here in Los Angeles. And it has the element of a chosen community. It's lower rents and you can actually, I think it's. You rent, maybe rent to own. And it's vegetarian and they have bike sharing, I think, and they also have shared kitchen space. Shared. What do you call it? Like, workspaces. Like, you can do crafts and stuff like that. Anyways, this. I think they have a tour every Sunday and they'll serve you some soup if you're interested. I went down there and I was like, yeah, I could do it. It's just like. It's when there's too many. There's just one too many rules where you're like, so we gotta meet once a week to talk about shit. Like, I don't know, it's too much. And even doing service with 12 step groups, like, I just go. That's enough for me. Where I just go. This is crazy because people, we're just all. Everyone's crazy. Everyone's kooky for Cocoa Puffs. And the fact that any decisions get made on a group level of any organization is unbelievable. Truly. Yeah. So. Yeah. But yeah, I don't think I would. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. But, yeah, who knows?

[Lola Blanc]

That's good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're gonna never be sure. You can never be sure.

[Lola Blanc]

You can never be sure.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, yeah, I don't wanna ever say that. I wouldn't. Cause what if there's a fun one?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no. That would get me.

[Lola Blanc]

But being resistant to being told what to do is a really great way to help you stay out of bed.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Yoga. Like, yoga. I know. That's a problem here in Los Angeles. You get into yoga and there's hot yoga and it's. People act very serious and it's made up. Yoga is made up. It's not real. It's saying all these phrases that nobody knows what they mean, but they have some spiritual strength to them. No, they don't. Nobody's been to India. I don't think you've been to India, Mandy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And yeah, but it's like Dale Carnegie, if you believe it's working, it just might be.

[Maria Bamford]

It's working, then it's working.

[Lola Blanc]

But breathing deeply and stretching. Stretching. And, you know, like saying something meditative. Sure, of course that's gonna be helpful.

[Maria Bamford]

Something helpful. I, in order to participate with yoga, because I know I wanna move my carcass is I have to listen to true crime podcasts during the whole thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God, it's my favorite murderer.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, because I just must. I cannot bear listening to the pseudo religious. Whatever the hell is going on in yoga. I just go, this isn't happening. Nothing's happening. No, you can't touch my lower back and adjust me. Like, no, no, no, no, no. And I know they are good people, the yogis. I know they're very kind and gentle.

[Lola Blanc]

Many of them we've also talked to. We've heard about many who are not.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah. There's some that are really gross. There's local room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But that. I know that has been a problem. Sometimes I wear my ear pods to the yoga class and they're like, I have your earpods in. And so I've just said, you know, I have sound issues.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Smart.

[Lola Blanc]

You're listening to the poet. Meanwhile, serial killer chopping someone's body the

[Maria Bamford]

whole time came out. And I just kind of barely follow along with whatever. I just do down dog the whole time. Cause they also. They act as if it's all supposed to feel good to everyone. I'm like that. The snake one, the super snake. Where you. Cobra, cobra, cobra, cobra, super snake. It never has felt good to me.

[Lola Blanc]

What about baby cobra?

[Maria Bamford]

Neither. Neither. I never want a cobra. And I just. As I get older, I just go, what if it's not good for me? I'm just not a cobra person. And it's just, stop. Stop the violence.

[Lola Blanc]

I do really appreciate when the instructor is like, whatever feels good to you. You don't have to do that. That's how it should be.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Agreed.

[Maria Bamford]

I am driven mad when they say, we're gonna need two blocks and a strap. And we're gonna need two old issues of Women's Day magazine from the 1960s. And then we're gonna need a picture of your mother to have that on your phone. So take a second to set that up above.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Bolster.

[Maria Bamford]

A bolster? What.

[Lola Blanc]

What's a bolster?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like a little thing that they make you get.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I've never used it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like a little bump that makes you.

[Maria Bamford]

If we can just take the blanket and what you fold it into. I like the slice of the spice.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan loves this. It makes me very Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I go to, like, the yin yogas, where it's not hard, where they're like, we're sitting for an hour, and I'm like, great. And you, like, put one leg out a little bit.

[Lola Blanc]

And then I only like the. I like the sculpt ones because I'm like, I want to feel like I'm working out. I'm making my butt look better if I'm going to be doing this.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, I. I'm. I know I'm wrong. I'm probably wrong, but just for me, for me, it's. I. Cause I have. I have dear friends who adore yoga.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're not wrong.

[Maria Bamford]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're not wrong.

[Maria Bamford]

Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I want to ask about. Okay, so, like, what is the cult of having your dreams come true? What does it feel like to be famous and all of the things. What's the.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, it's just like this. You guys are doing it. You know, you have a successful podcast. It's just this. And then it's happened. What? And then people are like, so how did you get a podcast? And you're like, well, I mean, it's not that interesting. And that. That's exactly what it is. It's just going, yeah, I always wanted to have a TV show made, and that was hilarious. Got to have a TV show made. And, yeah, it was unreal. And it was just beyond my abilities. Like, I have just. Cause the meds I'm on just could barely do it. Like, they had to have. For the second season, they got me a tent on stage so that I could fall over in a heap, like, between takes. Cause I was just so tired. And that's embarrassing. Cause when the union guys are like, I drive in from Santa Clarita, I get two hours of sleep, and I'm 95 years old. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry. So. But, yeah, it just feels incredible and embarrassing and delightful and. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you feel like you could be

[Megan Elizabeth]

the cult leader and if you were, what Would it be?

[Maria Bamford]

Well, that. That's kind of the part where I remember once I had experience of fame where it felt dishonest. Like, it felt like, oh, this is not what I want to be famous for. I was a Target spokesperson, hot second. And people started recognizing me from that. And I was like, oh, no, I really like doing the character. But I was like this capitalistic, consumerist, lonely person. This lonely, sad character that I'm doing. And people are going, that's me. I do that. I go shopping alone and buy things I can't afford from a company that doesn't pay its workers well, just like me. Merry Christmas.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Like, I'm just like, oh, no. So. So, yeah, I definitely solved that problem by talking about it publicly. And then they fired me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That'll do it.

[Maria Bamford]

That'll do it.

[Lola Blanc]

I love that part of your book, though. Cause I was like, I feel like I would do this. I would freak out about doing the unethical thing and then I would lose the job and not have any money anymore.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, and I remember, I remember this guy when I. He was offered a spokesperson job, this guy who I knew from the Groundlings. And he was like, he said, yeah, I don't wanna be known for that. And I was like, you are such a fucking idiot. Like, that's good money. You could buy yourself a house. But now I'm like, oh, I kinda. I get it. Like, you know, if you don't know how long. We don't. Nobody knows how long we have on Earth. And you go, the reason I wanted to be a creative person was to say these particular things or represent these things. And if I'm throwing it all out the window on some level to say that doesn't matter. Like how you treat people doesn't matter. Like, Target makes all its stuff overseas by people. There's no environmental rules. There's no. I mean, it's bad. It's just as bad as Walmart or any other or all the fast fashion places. It's bad. They don't pay their employees. So that's why it seems like they're giving money to charities. Cause those are the charities that employees are using. They're going to food shops. So that. Yeah, I just go, do I want to be the face of that now? I have no control over, you know, I'm sure my comedy is being done on serious, you know, on different things where it has different advertisers that I have no control over. But at least it's not me saying, this is the greatest. And also I just can't trust myself not to shit talk stuff. I just. I adore it so much. And it's something that brings me a lot of joy, is to find out the dirty details, including on myself. Like, I like to tell on myself.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah, it's impossible to navigate in a world that is, like, in the society we live in, where the only way to make money in the entertainment industry is via corporations.

[Maria Bamford]

Yes. And it's totally all great. I work, all my stuff is through Live Nation, all the shows. It's all through this monopolizing corporate entity that charges all these ticket fees. Ticketmaster is awful. And I haven't had the willingness or the energy to do independent ticketing, which you can do if you put the effort in. I know that there are people who do it, and I just haven't had the wherewithal to do that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean, you have depression, though, or you struggle with depression. So the people who care the most are usually depressed. And then they don't have enough energy to start their own thing. Whereas the psychopaths are just. They need one hour of sleep a night. The empathy's not sucking the energy from their brain.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, it just comes back to that same thing we were talking about at the beginning, which is that, like, we can only do so much. We have to just be doing our best. There isn't a clear right answer. If there were, we would all have checked the boxes. And that's why none of us are in the religious structures we grew up in. Because we know that that's not real.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That there's no. Yeah, there's no real. I mean, which is so sad. Cause I would. I do wish there was some way that everything. Something could be good or, you know,

[Lola Blanc]

like, you know, some things can be good. We just.

[Maria Bamford]

What about Dr. Bronner's soap? Isn't that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Dr. Parana's soap. It's a B corp. It's a B corporation. And they. I think it's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that could be good.

[Lola Blanc]

Listen, some organizations are good. Some companies are trying. Some people, you know, we're doing our best.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We're trying.

[Maria Bamford]

Did you find that out with the Unitarian Church? Like, I felt like Unitarians every week would be like, guess what? Guess what other shit is going down. Wake up and smell the decaf. Like, where they would be telling you about some other injustice that you had to, like, donate money to or protest on behalf of or.

[Lola Blanc]

I only went a couple of times. I do, but it did. Definitely was giving. Like, there's a New thing we need to be working on, which I think is good. And I'm also very involved in, like, social justice and political activism and stuff, so there's definitely a lot of that. But what I've learned in, like, trying to do my part to be a good person is that, like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to tackle every issue. There's just no way. Like, there's, like, 17 things that are all equally urgent and important all at the same time and devastating. And it's so fucked up. And I'm like, I am one person, though. And as long as, like, I'm trying to be plugged into this, like, larger work, that's all I can do. That's all I can do.

[Maria Bamford]

That's. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Trying to be aware.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think about my mom. My mom was a. I feel like she was a great lady. And, you know, but she's, you know, she shopped at Nordstrom. She. She got her. She liked nice things and. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

We're not perfect.

[Maria Bamford]

Nobody's perfect.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No. Sometimes you gotta shop at Nordstrom. Right.

[Maria Bamford]

Sometimes it's the only place available.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then what?

[Maria Bamford]

And then what?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sometimes you just gotta go to stores.

[Maria Bamford]

You gotta. Oh, sometimes you go to Marshall's, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I love Marshalls.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Only go to Marshalls. Don't get me started on Marshalls.

[Lola Blanc]

But.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's complicated.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. It seems we're all really doing our best. That's all we can. That's all we can do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I'm trying to think of, like, one more really good cult question.

[Maria Bamford]

If you could design. I'll ask you guys if you could design a cult that you think would be harmless would be wonderful. What. What would that look like? And what would you be called?

[Megan Elizabeth]

The slumber parties.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, that's really nice. And what would the.

[Lola Blanc]

When you have that ready to go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it just popped in.

[Maria Bamford]

I love it. That's great. I love that, too. Slumber parties. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It would be a big, giant house where everybody has their own room, and we all live together and we grow stuff in our garden and we have our animals and stuff, but we have slumber parties every night.

[Lola Blanc]

Sounds like your old house. Yeah. You're just trying to move back into your old house.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Minus some of the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it would be only women and, like, lots of miniature ponies. Positive affirmations. We would read Dale Carnegie. We'd read a lot of, like, silly stuff.

[Maria Bamford]

Would there be a chore wheel?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I didn't.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't want to live with that many people. Get out of my space. Well, you're not.

[Maria Bamford]

You're not in the slumber parties. When I pictured the slumber parties, I thought it would just be, like, once a month. And that's when you get together.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Permanent state of being.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not Michael.

[Maria Bamford]

That's not my. Very culty. How about your. Was he. What's your.

[Lola Blanc]

Yours?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think it would be.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, when you. She said slumber parties, I thought of summer camp, which to me seems so fun. I want adult summer camp. But for me, it would be just once a month.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And we would learn a cult, and we would learn a skill.

[Maria Bamford]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

And the leadership would be voted on every year. So it's democratic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But what's your cult?

[Maria Bamford]

But still. No, if she says it's a cult, it's a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a good cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, it is a good cult, but what would your, like, toxic cult be?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, it'd be some productivity cult, for sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You would just take Nexiv stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Or it'd be a political cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I'm very deep in dsa, so it would probably just be dsa.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, dsa. What's DSA again?

[Lola Blanc]

Democratic Socialists of America.

[Maria Bamford]

Oh, gosh. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

But you know what? Leadership changes, gets voted on. It's democratic. That's why the word democratic's in there. That's my cult.

[Maria Bamford]

Nice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Love it. Love it.

[Lola Blanc]

We're trying to help make the world better.

[Megan Elizabeth]

My slumber party cult, only one leader.

[Lola Blanc]

But I still want to do my adult summer camp, though.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

[Maria Bamford]

I like adult summer camp. That's fun.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. I think I'd like everybody to live on the same block. Like, all the friends live on the same block. And the problem is, what happens is there's one friend who's probably easier to be with than any of the other friends. And so everyone ends up at their house, and hopefully they're okay with that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I like that.

[Lola Blanc]

I like that, too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I would join it.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to live on a. Yeah. I don't want to live in the house with my friends, but I do want to live on the block with my friends.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I think that's better.

[Maria Bamford]

And then learn dances.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh.

[Maria Bamford]

Like, you know, sort of viral dances.

[Megan Elizabeth]

TikTok dances once a week.

[Maria Bamford]

Okay. Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Maria Bamford]

Or maybe roller skating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Lola Blanc]

So demure, right?

[Maria Bamford]

I mean, I'm just. These are suggestions, suggestions.

[Lola Blanc]

I'll join. I like that one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's a good one.

[Maria Bamford]

And lots of Animals, all the animals.

[Lola Blanc]

Miniature ponies, Honestly.

[Maria Bamford]

Miniature ponies, for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

My mom's house maybe is a combination of both of yours.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Take us there.

[Lola Blanc]

Because she has so many animals.

[Maria Bamford]

Where's your mom at, where she lives?

[Lola Blanc]

She's in southern Utah, in that same town from the dock. They've got a donkey, they've got a miniature cow, they've got a horse. I think they still have the miniature horse. Chickens, cats, dogs. I think I'm missing one. And a ton of rooms. And people will come stay there when they're, like, transitioning out of polygamy. Aw.

[Maria Bamford]

So, you know, your mom has been through the whole thing of something going well or being like she's had a massive success. Right. Like, just in terms of what that documentary, I'm sure was. I mean, it seemed like a goal of hers to get those kids. Like, she really. That's a huge success. I mean, so meaningful, for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Huge success. But the process. The process wasn't so great. But yeah, yeah, the result was good in the end.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How is she doing now?

[Lola Blanc]

She's good. She's good. She's really happy.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Oh, good.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you have any further thoughts on cults, Maria?

[Maria Bamford]

Well, just that it's okay. You know, I've often thought that sometimes it's good to join a cult just for a week, just to. Just to get the initial high that you can when everyone's like, oh, you're a hot product. And they're like, oh, who's the new talent? And then you abruptly pull out. So you go to Hinky Winkies, Jehovah Witnesses, seven full days. You just go. All the services, all the parties, say, yeah, oh, I'm all in, and then get out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love that.

[Maria Bamford]

I think that might be sort of a slightly healing and entertaining thing to do if you've got the strength of character that, you know, I would never really join.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think that's what you think. Narcissistic men. But that's what we think, though.

[Maria Bamford]

I know, I know.

[Lola Blanc]

And then they use their tactics.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But sometimes I just really get, like, a solid couple months of love bombing, and then I'm like, bye, the love bomb.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, no, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I've gotten that a few times.

[Lola Blanc]

That intermittent. We talk about it all the time. That intermittent reinforcement is a real bit sometimes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't work and I end up with them. But sometimes I've gotten really lucky where the cognitive business isn't that high, and I'm like, I'm going to leave before you turn mean.

[Lola Blanc]

I like that you said the Jehovah's Witnesses parties as though the Jehovah's Witnesses have these great. They do.

[Maria Bamford]

My ex husband was raised in the Jehovah's Witnesses and he said that because you couldn't. They couldn't have holidays or anything. What it meant was that there was like constant parties, like roller skating parties, picnics, like all this shit where you did all this stuff together. I mean, there's some really good things about it. Like. Yeah, they. People really hung out a lot because you're not supposed to do anything with anybody else. You can't go to sports. You can't participate in dances at school. Like, it really sucked.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

So. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But they throw rager for the other members.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's nice.

[Maria Bamford]

That's nice.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah, the book. Sure, I'll join your cult.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, check it out. It's available at your library. I'm sure there's no, wait. It's also available on audiobook. I do a very nice job of doing an audiobook. So if you're bored, check it out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also buy it and.

[Maria Bamford]

Buy it, buy it, buy it. But also don't.

[Lola Blanc]

From an independent book seller.

[Maria Bamford]

Independent bookstore, used bookstore. Yeah. Do. Do all the things and. Yeah. Enjoy yourself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Follow Maria on all of her socials and go to her con. Her concerts.

[Lola Blanc]

Her concerts. Go to her. Her violin concerts. Sorry, you're doing them now.

[Maria Bamford]

Go to the.

[Lola Blanc]

Go to her show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You go to her shows. And certainly we will be seeing you, I'm sure.

[Maria Bamford]

Yes. Thank you so much for having me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wawa We. That was an amazing conversation with Maria.

[Lola Blanc]

Are you Wawa? We're Wawa. We wa.

[Maria Bamford]

Indeed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And usually we ask each other, would you join the cult? We would both join whatever cult Mario's leading. I think we can leave it at that. What do you think?

[Lola Blanc]

I agree.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, well, go. Rate us 5 stars. Go buy some merch, if you so please. You can find it at. What is it, Lola?

[Lola Blanc]

Exactlyrightstore.com. we know our links really well, so

[Megan Elizabeth]

go check us out. Leave us five stars. I just said that. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth. Georgia Hardstark. And Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram USME podcast or on TikTok USME cult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Maria Bamford]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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