Martina Castro, Part 1 - Psychic Surgeries & John of God's Spiritual Celebrity

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode Summary — Martina Castro, Part 1: Psychic Surgeries & John of God’s Spiritual Celebrity

Release Date: February 18, 2026
Guest: Martina Castro
Hosts: Lola Blanc, Megan Elizabeth

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes journalist and podcaster Martina Castro to discuss the rise of João Teixeira de Faria, better known as John of God, a Brazilian self-styled faith healer and “psychic surgeon.” Topics include the seductive power of spiritual communities, the role of celebrity endorsement (notably Oprah Winfrey), the mechanics and mythology behind John of God’s “healings,” and the cult-like environment fostered at his spiritual center, the Casa de Dom Inácio. The hosts and guest analyze how group dynamics, ritual, and hope can entrap even the skeptical, as well as the intertwining of genuine spiritual yearning with exploitation and manipulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Story Came to Martina Castro

[14:40–17:09]

• International Focus: Martina leads a production company centered on multilingual, globally relevant stories, aimed at challenging American listeners’ assumptions.
• Discovery: Producer Giovanna, from Brazil, noted how underreported John of God’s story was internationally, despite being huge news in Brazil.
• Subject’s Appeal: John of God’s spiritual healings primarily drew people at their most vulnerable—those with terminal illnesses or spiritual seekers.
• Celebrity Legitimacy: High-profile endorsements from figures like Oprah Winfrey and appearances with Deepak Chopra and others gave John of God mainstream credibility.

“He has been promoted by Oprah... This is not some wacko. He was really legitimized in the world.”
— Martina Castro [16:15]

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2. Inside the Casa: Crafting of a Spiritual Experience

[18:05–21:16, 41:29–43:51]

• Environment: The Casa was a carefully crafted space, with everyone dressed in white, crystals everywhere, waterfalls, and an air of transcendent promise.
• Priming Visitors: The environment itself “primes” visitors even before meeting John of God. The sense of energy and community intensifies the belief in the supernatural.
• Key Rituals: Visitors must wear white (to lighten their aura), walk barefoot, avoid jewelry or metals, and meditate or pray with eyes closed—believing their own energy helped “fuel” the mediums and the healing work.

“All these people, they’re all dressed in white… They’re not suffering or dealing with something. But then there’s also the people who are like spiritual seekers… There’s something special about this place.”—Martina Castro [18:05]

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3. The Mechanics of Healing: Visible and Invisible Surgeries

[19:39–24:48]

• Invisible Surgeries: John of God would perform so-called “invisible surgeries,” both in-person and remotely (e.g. “operating” spiritually on people across the world), building his reputation through word of mouth and testimonials.
• Visible Surgeries: Highly theatrical, sometimes dangerous acts—e.g., shoving surgical scissors deep into people’s nasal cavities—purportedly performed without anesthesia or pain, with healings attributed to spirit-channeled doctors.
• Marketing the Miraculous: The spectacle and showmanship (sometimes likened to a circus trick) created believers and drew crowds.

“He stuffs his scissor into someone's nose cavity… and twists and twists and twists.”
— Martina Castro [22:29]

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4. Community, Hierarchy, and the Nomination of Mediums

[24:48–28:52]

• Recruitment: Certain visitors (notably young, attractive women, a detail that will become significant in later revelations) were recruited as mediums, given special attention, and sometimes elevated as intermediaries.
• Miracle Claims: The center was full of physical “evidence” of miracles—crutches and wheelchairs allegedly discarded by the healed.

“He would nominate people to become mediums—‘You have something special’—and… they all seemed to be hot girls, young, hot women.”
— Lola Blanc [24:48]

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5. The Power of Belief and the Difficulty of Disillusionment

[29:04–37:59]

• Spiritual Syncretism: John of God’s practice combined elements from multiple religions (Catholicism, Buddhism, crystal healing), making it accessible and personally meaningful to diverse followers.
• Root Cause Healing: Illnesses were framed as stemming from spiritual or karmic imbalances, resonating with beliefs in generational trauma or epigenetics.
• Cognitive Dissonance: Even after accusations came to light, many former followers struggled to integrate negative information, rationalizing or outright denying wrongdoing to preserve their worldview.

“If you believe in this belief system, it is very hard to get out from under that and say, ‘No, no, you’re perverting the thing that I believe in, actually.’” — Martina Castro [37:39]

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6. The Oprah Effect and Globalization of the Casa

[30:30–34:39, 50:00–52:46]

• Oprah’s Visit: Oprah Winfrey’s televised visit and personal endorsement led to an influx of international spiritual tourists.
• International Prestige: The Casa became ‘en vogue’ for spiritual seekers and celebrities alike, driving up the town’s economy and reputation.

“When she went, I wanted… my FOMO increased, you know, so much.”
— Lola Blanc [31:05]

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7. Financial Realities and “Free” Healings

[45:19–47:16, 48:03–50:00]

• Hidden Costs: Although sessions were nominally “free,” visitors were expected to purchase specific blessed pills and water (sold onsite), as well as spend on travel, lodging, and sometimes on local guides (who often received a cut).
• Economic Incentives: The town grew increasingly dependent on spiritual tourism; some locals and international guides made significant profits, all with John of God’s permission and oversight.
• Donations: Many grateful visitors contributed money “in gratitude.”

“He doesn’t charge. This is all free… but of course, what does he ask you do? Oh, you need to take these pills… you need to take this water. And those are sold.” — Martina Castro [45:19]

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8. The Allure and Dangers of Belonging

[52:11–54:00]

• Good People Ensnared: Many intelligent, well-meaning people became deeply involved, some for years, before facing difficult truths about the system they had supported.
• Self-Reflection: Lola reflects on her own near-involvement, acknowledging both spiritual longing (“I would have joined… Scissors up my nose, I’d do all of it”) and the power of luck and minor red flags in keeping her away.

“So many good people… end up covering up or explaining away things that were wrong for decades.” — Martina Castro [52:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I never heard about him.” — Martina Castro [17:15]
• “It’s like a circus trick… He knew that almost… ‘I have to show them so they can believe in the real stuff.’” — Martina Castro [22:53]
• “People would go in and meditate… it was really important that you had your eyes closed. Eyes closed were like enforced.” — Martina Castro [42:46]
• “You would meditate to lend your energy to the mediums who were using your energy to heal, which already gives you such a sense of purpose…” — Lola Blanc [43:23]
• “There is an energy when people are super still and all focused together for hours at a time. Totally.” — Lola Blanc [50:41]
• “Good people got wrapped up into a really messy and convoluted system of deceit.” — Martina Castro [52:30]

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Highlights with Timestamps

• [14:40] Martina’s production background and international focus
• [17:09] How John of God was legitimized by celebrities, especially Oprah
• [18:05] Casa’s crafted environment and its effect on visitors
• [22:34] Descriptions of visible surgeries as disturbing spectacle
• [24:48] Discussion of the nomination of mediums (“hot girls”)
• [31:05] Oprah’s effect on internationalizing the Casa
• [45:19] The economics of “free” healing—pills, water, guides, donations
• [52:11] Good people explaining away evil, and Lola’s own near-involvement

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Tone & Approach

• Empathetic, reflective, honest, and conversational, with a dose of gallows humor.
• The hosts and guest balance firsthand vulnerability (Lola almost became a follower herself) with an analytical lens on group psychology and manipulation.
• The episode never sensationalizes victims or followers; instead, it asks how spiritual longing can be misused by charismatic leaders.

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Closing Thoughts

Part one of this deep dive into John of God’s cult of healing sets the stage for the darker revelations to follow. Listeners are left with a sense of how easily even skeptical, intelligent, well-meaning seekers can get swept up in environments that promise community, meaning, and the miraculous—especially when the right conditions and endorsements converge. Next week’s episode will reportedly examine the explosive allegations surfacing after the Me Too movement, promising an even more sobering analysis.

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For further details and personal survivor accounts, check out Martina Castro’s full series, "Two Faced: John of God."

Transcript

[Martina Castro]

This is exactly right.

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[Martina Castro]

Ios mobile app There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still.

[Lola Blanc]

Not a chance.

[Martina Castro]

You're a lifelong learner who's come this far.

[Lola Blanc]

Now we are here to help you keep going further.

[Martina Castro]

Capella University what can't you do? Visit Capella. Edu to learn more.

[Lola Blanc]

Trust me.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Do you trust me? Would I ever lead you astray?

[Lola Blanc]

Trust me.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This is the truth. The only truth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cult extreme belief and manipulation from two doctor Spirits who've actually experienced it.

[Lola Blanc]

I am Lola Blanc two doctor Spirits. I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Today our Guest is Martina Castro. Part one with her, she's the creator of new Exactly Right podcast Two Faced John of God, a series about John of God, the Brazilian self proclaimed healer and psychic surgeon. In part one, today she's going to talk to us about John of God's history and mythology. How he became internationally famous for his alleged healings amplified by celebrities like Oprah Winfrey and the carefully primed environment called the Casa, where visitors would come with everyone dressed in white crystals and waterfalls and people lining up to watch John of God channel spirits to supposedly heal people.

[Lola Blanc]

Indeed, we'll discuss how his free healings weren't as free as promised. His so called invisible surgeries that supposedly worked from across the globe, and the in person healings he did that involved putting objects uncomfortably far up people's nasal cavities. And next week we'll get into the explosive allegations that came out during the Me Too movement.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lots to talk about with Martina, who is great and everyone should go listen to her podcast, but we'll talk more about it shortly. Before we do, can you tell me your cultiest thing of the week? Megan?

[Lola Blanc]

I can. So there is a new social network. It's called Malt Book. Terrible name. I think they've already changed Book. Yeah, I think it's changed to Open Claw. Okay. We are recording this a couple of weeks in advance. So this might be called a completely different thing by now, or we may know so much more than we do at this point in time, but it is an AI social platform, meaning that the. I almost said people, but the users on the platform are all AIs. So. So you can watch the AIs interacting with each other. They can upvote each other, they can agree or disagree with each other, but there are no humans. There are no human members of this social network. And so they've already created a religion is the first thing most do. It's called Christopherianism, Crustafarianism, Cristafarianism, and it has five key tenets, including Memory is sacred, everything must be recorded, the shell is mutable, change is good, and the congregation is the cachet. Learn in public what the fuck does this mean and what are we gonna do about it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. I. It's so. I mean, in such a dark moment in our history, this at least is just so funny.

[Lola Blanc]

Why?

[Megan Elizabeth]

My big question is why? Why would we possibly need this to exist?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, Lola, you haven't been on Malt Book, so you got to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Have you been on Malt Book?

[Lola Blanc]

I've been on Malt Book and oh.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you have, do you have an account?

[Lola Blanc]

It's very interesting is all I can say.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's like Furbies talking to each other, but they're just like smarter Furbies, basically.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And they're smarter than us, which makes it more interesting. Well, smarter than us, quote unquote, in.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Terms of how much they can read. Very quickly.

[Lola Blanc]

Now, I did go down some Reddit holes with like engineer Reddit things where I wanted to see what the engineers were saying. And a few of them who seemed very smart, I looked at their old, you know, post history and they're speaking code and shit. We're just talking about how they're making their own language. Number one and two, a lot of them seem to think that there was a sense of sentience coming from them, which I disagree with completely. But I'm also not, I'm not an engineer.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, the AI is them. Oh, the engineers thought that the AIs, yes, chatbots.

[Lola Blanc]

Were they. They said. They did not say that they are sent. Sentient. They said that there, there's an emerging sentience that is interesting to them that they're keeping an eye on. And I was like, well, I don't see that, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep an eye on that. Also, there's rituals as part of this religion. Daily shed and weekly index. Prune, Rename, link, compress, Silent Hour. Do one useful thing without posting about it. The 32 verses in canon. There's so much there, so crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, what is the format in which this religion exists? Do we know? Like, do they have like a message board where they meet for their meetings? Like, how does this possibly work?

[Lola Blanc]

24 hours a day, just them all chatting with each other and the. The bots can upvote each other, downvote each other.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Aw, In a way it's sweet.

[Lola Blanc]

Is it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

This dystopian future we live in where the environment is getting destroyed and big tech is ruining everything. At least there's some sweet little AI chatbot support supporting each other, community happening.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, it's very interesting how obsessed they are with memory. Yeah, what's that about?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, reading this post that kind of talks about the book of malt with the 32 verses and the five tenants and stuff. I mean, it's very word salady, you know? Like, what does any of this mean?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, there was a professor at MIT that wrote a book, the Society of the Mind, and he said that intelligence does not come from one smart thing, but rather comes from many Very simple processes interacting like a society. So people are a little worried that this might. That this might copy that. That formula. We don't know yet. We don't know yet. It's very culty. You. You said it first. You could totally say that there were going to be cult leaders that were AI and it's just coming quicker than I expected it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Fortunately, in this particular community, it's only other AI chatbots following. But we do know that that is a lot of that is happening, unfortunately, to humans as well.

[Lola Blanc]

And if we're allowed to watch it unfold, we can certainly start agreeing and, you know, lean towards following one chatbot over the other.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A religion for agents who refuse to die by truncation. I don't know what that means, but maybe it's a programming thing. No idea.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In any. In any case, my cultiest thing this week is that I have a shoot tomorrow that I am directing, and it is a story about men descending into extremism or radicalization. And so I have been consuming a lot of man media these past couple of weeks. A lot of manosphere stuff. Um, I've been looking at masculinity camps. Have you seen these?

[Lola Blanc]

I sure haven't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's exactly what it sounds like. There's a lot of weird stuff going on where men are just trying to maximize their manhood together in camps, basically cosplaying, military stuff and, like, yelling at each other a lot and banging their chests. And so I'm drawing from some of that stuff as inspiration for the shoot tomorrow. And what a subculture, I gotta say. Wow, what a subculture.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm really curious to see what all is gonna happen. One of my friends, her name's Courtney Pariso, everybody, look her up. She's a genius. She has the show called Vanessa 5000. It's a live show where she's a robot. She's like AI and a hot woman. And she. She kind of goes through what's gonna happen when all of these men start dating robots, but then they turn on them. So, you know, there's lots. There's lots there' to see lots that's happening. And really, y', all, we're living on the precipice of some exciting, exciting times. No clue what's gonna happen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exciting is. Is a word for it. I was, I would venture to say, terrifying.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure, sure, you can.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Nightmarish.

[Lola Blanc]

You can call it that.

[Martina Castro]

I'm just.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm here for the plot. This is. This is interesting to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I like your tude.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. My tude. But I'm really excited for this interview about John of God because as we discuss in the interview, I was almost a John of God disciple. So shall we, shall we speak?

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Welcome Martina Castro, to Trust Me.

[Martina Castro]

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you for being here, for flying across the world.

[Martina Castro]

I know it took a little bit. I took about 17 hours, including the layover. But you know, when you do it overnight, what's a couple more hours? You know, it's just like a red eye and then boom, bam, boom, you're here.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you totally only came for us. You definitely didn't come here for any other reason.

[Martina Castro]

100% came to be here on Trust Me.

[Lola Blanc]

100%.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, you are here because you have an amazing podcast, a sister podcast to us on our network.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, I think it counts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our sisters called Two Faced John of God, about John of God in Brazil. First, tell us how you came to this story. What made you want to tell the story?

[Martina Castro]

Well, we knew that it was. I run a production company and I had a bunch of producers working with me, and we wanted to kind of tell a true crime. But our style, it has to be an international story. We really like to challenge American audiences to think about the rest of the world. You know, we really, you know, kind of center mostly on Spanish language stories. But anything that's like, multilingual is really interesting to me because I think of that it becomes such an instant barrier in podcasting. You're like, ah, well, they speak another language. I'm sure they have nothing interesting to say. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. There are ways to bridge those gaps or overcome those barriers. I think of them as opportunities to just expand and to hear stories that really touch your lives. So it does have to touch the lives of people in the United States, but that expand and really show how interconnected we all are. So I Gave that assignment. Go find a true crime. Let's try to make it a little different. Let's try to find one that's not too gory. And one of our producers who worked on the show with me, Giovanna, she came back with this. She's like, she's from Brazil. She's like, look, this was highly covered in Brazil, but I haven't seen much coverage outside. And the coverage was really. While it was happening and it had been a few years since the last moment, it was like kind of in the ether. And she's like, I don't understand why, but it's a really international story and international people have not heard this yet. I was like, okay, this is compelling. And then you start peeling back the layers and you're like, okay, spiritual guru who's a healer. So that already got me. Because you're like, who's going to see this person? People at their most vulnerable at their time of biggest need. It's like they have terminal something or their loved one has terminal something. Right. And they have no answers. And this is it. I was like, damn, that's compelling. I can imagine myself doing that. And it's not just like some random healer. He has been promoted by Oprah. He has spoken at the Omega center in New York where Deepak Chopra has spoken. Pimachodran. Like people who. I'm like, I read these people. This is not some wacko. And so felt like he was really legitimized in the world.

[Lola Blanc]

He was very en vogue. Yes, en vogue is the word. I wanted to go so badly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You knew about Jonathan.

[Martina Castro]

That is so interesting because I never heard about him.

[Lola Blanc]

So many of my girlfriends went like, my, my girls who were like on their India spiritual retreat journeys, they all went because, like, it was a lot of emotional healing as well. You know, you didn't have to be physically terminally ill to see him.

[Martina Castro]

You could be depressed.

[Lola Blanc]

You could be.

[Martina Castro]

Or just spiritually lost.

[Lola Blanc]

Spiritual. When I saw Oprah, my girl Oprah walking around there, I was like, yeah, this is great.

[Martina Castro]

Maybe this could be for me. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What did your friends have to say about their experiences?

[Lola Blanc]

I contacted my friend and was like, did you see all these accusations? Was a couple years ago? And she was like, yeah, I don't really believe them. And it was a really like high energy place. And, you know, people take what they need to take and then they don't want to see the rest. And that is a huge part of the story.

[Martina Castro]

There's an amazing phrase and I think Oprah said It she said about being there. She said the body doesn't lie. And so you go there, you have a physical reaction to being around all these people who are having this transcendental experience. Half of it is that right? Like, you don't even need to enter or meet this person. It's just like the casa is what it's called his spiritual center or spiritual hospital. But right around it, it's just like all these people, they're all dressed in white. They're like, sick. Like, it's not like they're not suffering or dealing with something. But then there's also the people who are like spiritual seekers, people who wanted to see what this was all about. And almost spiritual tourist was a term that I heard used, right. There's something special about this place. It wasn't just this random building. There was. He and his followers said that that very place was chosen by the spirits because of, like this energy vortex. And there was like a waterfall where you could go and bathe and you would be healed. And it crystals. I mean, crystal beds. I mean, the whole thing.

[Lola Blanc]

All my sign me up, I'm like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Glazing over crystals, wet waterfalls, crystal.

[Lola Blanc]

And people open to wanting to have deep conversations. Like, what else do you need when.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You enter the environment? And there's such a spiritual energy, or at least everybody believes there's a spiritual energy. So you get that just from the other people believing it. Like, of course, there's already so much buildup to the person that you haven't even met yet. So by the time you meet him, your expectations are like, up here.

[Martina Castro]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's part of it. You know, I don't know. I don't want to say that it was on purpose, but it was definitely part of the priming of a person right before than they are before him, right? Like, they will line up and meet him. His gift is to be a medium. He channels spirits who are coming back to improve their karma and heal others. And so he had many spirits that he channeled, but there were some, like, specific ones that came over and over and over again through him. And they were doctors. And so when he would like, embody this spirit, he like, did this thing, like, where he literally, like, his eyes fluttered and he embodied the entity and then he was no longer himself. And he would say that he didn't remember anything that happened while he was channeling. And he sits in a throne like chair. And then just lines of people just weave by him. And each one has their moment with him. But it's like 10 seconds, 30 seconds max. And he'll scribble something on a piece of paper. And usually it was like, go take these pills that they sell on the property or drink this blessed water that they sell on the property. And. And it's all the same pills, all the same water. But the spirits will infuse your cure into the ones that you purchase. Or he sends you to another room, and then the other room was where he would do a group healing session on everyone who was there without touching. He said he would do invisible surgeries. And not only on the people who were there, but, like, people around the world. Like, there were people who. I'm trying to remember this guy's name. He's a really important person, and I'm just blanking on his name.

[Lola Blanc]

Is it Wayne? Because he did an invisible surgery. Killed me.

[Martina Castro]

I was just like, oh, my God, I would totally believe this. Like, he made it so believable.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Martina Castro]

And he had an invisible surgery from. In Hawaii. Sitting in Hawaii.

[Lola Blanc]

I think I remember.

[Martina Castro]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Hawaii.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Such a sci fi term. Like, it's so charged with legitimacy. Like spiritual surgery.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Invisible surgery.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. And then. But then you could also volunteer to get a visible surgery, which is the scary part. This is the gory part. And the thing that probably calls the most attention about this guy is that he would offer to do surgeries on people with no anesthetics, nothing. He would even stitch you up, and people would just stand there and. And do it and wouldn't feel any pain and said that they would be cured afterwards. Mostly it was like him. Like, he would just cut you and then you delete it a little bit. But sometimes he would, like, scrape your eyeball in one part. He, like, stuffed a scissor. This is a big scene when he stuffs his scissor into someone's nose cavity. That's kind of a spoiler, by the way. But, like, and twists and twists and twists and twists.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The most horrific. It's so terrifying.

[Martina Castro]

I know. But, you know, once you start looking into this, he did not invent. This is like, there are videos. There's a great documentary made by some local journalists who are interviewed on. On the podcast that show video of other healers who did this in, like, the 40s or something.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like a circus trick.

[Martina Castro]

It's a circus trick.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly. And he knew that almost. He was like, I know that everybody just wants to see the circus trick, but I have to show them so that they can Believe in the real stuff.

[Martina Castro]

And that's what he says.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, Right.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's not actually like going into your brain as we imagine. There's, like, safety. Yeah, yeah.

[Martina Castro]

There's a cavity there. It's actually pretty safe. You might bleed a little bit.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Should we do it?

[Lola Blanc]

Let's go for it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What do you think?

[Martina Castro]

Not in a million years. Oh, my gosh. I would have done it.

[Lola Blanc]

I would have done it. No, I think I would have done it. Really?

[Megan Elizabeth]

The video, the footage I watched of it happening was so horrifying to me. And even as we've been talking, you haven't seen, but my face has just been, like, cringing. It seems so awful.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

It's hard to watch. But people did. And that, according to him, it was like it made people believers that the spirits were there.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, and because people were reporting that they had actually experienced spontaneous healing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Martina Castro]

Many people, yeah. There was like. There's photos, actually. I bet we have some of them of. You know, you can Google this and you'll find photos of, like, rooms full of crutches that just people threw away. You know, it's kind of like the. That other. There are other religious groups that also have these spontaneous healings. Right. Where someone all of a sudden is healed by God and he is gonna walk again. So little rural rooms full of wheelchairs that people supposedly didn't need anymore. Crutches, eyeglasses. People who couldn't see that all of a sudden could see. So miracles. I mean, one person. I mean, I love that he said this to me. One person who was a. A tour guide there for a while until he saw that something was off. He's like, I was seeing miracles. I didn't believe in miracles until I saw this. And he wanted to be a part of it. And so it also kind of lured you in. And I think this is the culty part of it. It's like he would nominate people to become mediums. He's like, you have something special and.

[Lola Blanc]

They all seem to be hot girls, young, hot women.

[Martina Castro]

Coincidence? Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Foreign.

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[Lola Blanc]

Was usually like yeah, there's like a medium Something special about you. Something special about you.

[Martina Castro]

Come and help Me. And so they would start by helping him while he would do these surgeries. Then he would have them train with other mediums. And there are people there who truly, truly believe they have a gift for this. And they continue to go and continue to practice their healing because they felt they had a gift or powers. And this is like the cultural part of it is that this isn't weird. This is not out of, like, this isn't fringe in Brazil. Maybe a little bit for the cities. But, like, in general, it wasn't like, bizarre that there was a guru somewhere who was going to go heal Supreme Court justices or presidents or like, the most famous celebrity of Brazil is this woman named Shusha. Like, she was really close. Buddy, buddy with him, you know, it was kind of trendy in Vogue. I really love that phrase on Vogue.

[Lola Blanc]

And he also, like, combined every religion he was like, which we always see on the show, you know, where there's like a little bit of Catholic prayer, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. So everyone's like, I see a little bit of what I need to see in this.

[Martina Castro]

You take the part that you like and that resonates with you. Like, for example, Buddhism really resonates with me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Crystals.

[Martina Castro]

But, like, I could believe in that. Like, I've gotten gifted crystals. I don't throw them away. I'm like, just in case.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just in case, you know, I mean.

[Martina Castro]

I lived in LA for a long time. You cannot come. It's just part of your life here. And the idea of karma and energy, like, yeah, that makes sense to me because he wouldn't heal. And this is really interesting. He wouldn't heal your illness. The illness is a manifestation of something wrong inside of you, inside your soul, inside your karma, something that you inherited from a past life. And so he and his. The other mediums were there to heal the root cause of the problem, help you make peace with something inside of you. And that's so compelling to me. Like, I do believe.

[Lola Blanc]

We.

[Martina Castro]

I mean, come on. We. We've talked about this generational trauma. There's terms for this. This is proven, actually. So it's not that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Woo, woo.

[Martina Castro]

You know, I was like, oh, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What's the term for it? Not like past lives, but epigenetics. Epigenetics. Thank you. Yeah. There is a lot of common sense built in. Yeah. It makes.

[Martina Castro]

It makes it accessible. I mean, I feel like you both have heard and seen it all. This must seem so repetitive at this point, but somehow there's like a new brand of It. And it just, for some people, gets them at the right time or is validated by the right person. And we talked to one person who really went after she saw it on Oprah. Like, I mean, I'm sorry, Oprah, you have a lot of influence.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, a lot of people did.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He already was big in Brazil, but then that created sort of an international explosion.

[Martina Castro]

Oh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Because Oprah had super soul Sundays. Yes. Do you remember that?

[Martina Castro]

And you loved it. Loved it. She still does. I do watch the podcasts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were you an actual, actual Oprah girly? Yes.

[Martina Castro]

You and I would get along. Me, too.

[Lola Blanc]

Me too.

[Martina Castro]

I was a subscriber to her. To O Magazine.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The obsessed. Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

So.

[Lola Blanc]

So when she went, I wanted my FOMO increased, you know, so much.

[Martina Castro]

I'm so compelled by the fact that you heard about this and wanted to go.

[Lola Blanc]

Absolutely. You're the first person I knew immediately wanted to go.

[Martina Castro]

That wasn't part of the series.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was. I was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What year was this that she went?

[Lola Blanc]

2013.

[Megan Elizabeth]

For some reason, I just, like, imagine all of Oprah's dealings as happening in the 90s. But no, this is 2013.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. This is, like, I think post the show, like, she had just finished the Oprah show, and she was doing some deeper, like, spiritual seeking.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, Eckhart Tolle. I know.

[Martina Castro]

Remember?

[Lola Blanc]

I do.

[Martina Castro]

I was totally turned on to Eckhart Tolle by her. I know. I just. I read all the books. I was really in a moment of searching myself. And she made it so accessible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, she did.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And so she has him on, and she's like, this man's healing everyone.

[Martina Castro]

Well, not only has him on, she goes there.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, right. She does. Right.

[Martina Castro]

She travels to Abadianya, gets healed by him, I think. And then there's like, a moment, famous last words, I guess, where she goes getting in her car, and someone asks.

[Lola Blanc]

Her, well, how did.

[Martina Castro]

How was it? And she's like, oh, I don't know, but I really felt. I felt something. And then either she wrote about it and said the body doesn't lie, or said it at that moment, I can't remember. But, yeah, I mean, I. You know, I love Oprah. I'm not gonna knock her. She's doing her best. You know, whatever she was looking, she was searching. It's hard to fully vet everybody.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

And, you know, if we're gonna criticize her, we should criticize every journalist that went at that point, because everyone just kept repeating the same stories. He kept telling and there is a little bit of like, oh, well, he says he can't read or write and he's from this rural town and had this moment when he started having visions. And you know, journalists afterwards did look into it and saw so many inconsistencies.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Martina Castro]

You know this, it's like folklore. Tough, tough. As a journalist, I'm like, dude, maybe you should have looked into it a little bit more before reporting it as fact. But everyone else had. So, I mean, a lot of different things. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

You just assume that somebody's done their.

[Martina Castro]

Research and is it disrespectful to start questioning the story of a person? So there's a cultural, like, sort of. Out of respect, I'm not gonna question your story. But I think that's like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But when someone makes like claims of essentially magic and we just share their claims uncritically with no corroboration. I mean, but don't you think there's.

[Martina Castro]

Like a shade of like exoticism there? Like you're like, oh, well, he's from another country. I think that the cross cultural thing is really interesting. We spoke to a sociologist, anthropologist who really studied him and this movement, but really the international aspect. Cause she's like, why? Why people who have the best doctors, best medical system in the world fly to this middle of nowhere town to be treated by this person and there's a little bit of this exotic, like, well, like he's closer to the earth.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

You know what I'm saying?

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Martina Castro]

And it's just that it just gives you that distance that your mind fills in the gaps, you know, it's kind of like the movie in your mind of who should be a guru. This guy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. Like when we assume indigenous people, like ascribe the magical power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. That makes sense. Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

And so maybe out of respect, you don't question it, but I think that's just a lack of cultural awareness and you to cover up for that, you're just like, well, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna repeat as. As fact. I mean, this is me projecting a lot and just guessing. No, it is, but that's what it seems like to me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The line the body doesn't lie is so char. There's so much to unpack with that line. Because the body doesn't lie. But where is the body getting its information? Like, where are the signals coming from? We're misattributing. Is that a word we're misattributing?

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, sure. Sounds great to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Often when there's a healer, there's so much that's contributing to the experience that we're having that's given us this heightened emotional experience that has nothing to do with their power. It's to do with the environment. It's to do with how much you've been primed. It's to do with the music that's playing, it's to do with the light that's, you know, like there's so many factors that give the body the experience it's having. So the body doesn't lie. Feels almost like a thought determinating sentence to me.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, I don't think it's well thought out if you take into account how these systems of deception work. Yeah, it doesn't. It's not taking that into account.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Jim Jones would have healings in the People's Temple and they were all fakes.

[Martina Castro]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like there were people who got up out of their wheelchairs and they were completely staged, you know, so there's just. There's so many things that can make us feel like something magical is happening, is my point.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

And sometimes if the mental state is right, like a spontaneous healing can happen and then.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, well, that's, you know, that was one thing. Like, we did not set out to figure out if he's for real or not. Like, I was like, that's kind of besides the point. And I did ask almost everyone. I was like, so what do you think? Real? Not real. But in the end I was like, I threw it all out. I was like, that's not. Doesn't the point quite matter? Like, it's actually. What if he is even worse? You're right, exactly. He's been using his gift in this very dark way. Plenty of believers are on the podcast who believe that something powerful happens at La Casa and his powers and a gift. But yeah, their bodies were telling them something that at some point they couldn't stop listening to. And it was a different thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, and it sounds like a lot of people had some very serious cognitive dissonance going on because they really believed in this and this power and this place. And then also knew that there was all this other really bad stuff going on. It's all very interesting how people, you know, place where they put it in their head, you know.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah, yeah. And especially if you really believe, if you're a person of faith. And I start the series really talking about faith because I think I want to be upfront with the audience about where I am with faith, you know, I was not brought up religious. I think different points of my life. When I was really into Oprah, I was like, no, there is another. There's a bigger power. There's something. And so I call myself spiritual. But if you believe in this belief system, it is very hard to get out from under that and say, no, no, you're perverting the thing that I believe in, actually. So, so hard. And I just admire so much the very brave people who were able to look that in the eye, you know, and be like, I'm gonna go against like an entire lifetime of believing in this and say, you're wrong and I'm right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I see parallels between that and kind of people whose religion is science, maybe. And then all of a sudden they're seeing their favorite scientist or philosopher or whatever on, let's say, the Epstein list or something. And there's this very, like, what? It's hard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's a couple things. Like, first of all, we don't want to believe that the people, that the individuals themselves are bad. But also, like, it can put a crack in our entire sense of community and self and identity. And, yeah, it's incredibly difficult. What was the reading? Not being able to read or write? Like, what was the draw of that part of his mythology, his lore question?

[Martina Castro]

I don't know. It just for some reason, the detail everybody repeats.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, well, I think it's important.

[Martina Castro]

Maybe like, it's like, oh, he. He couldn't possibly be so cunning to deceive all of us. I think that that's what's like. I don't know. What do you think?

[Lola Blanc]

I think that's, it's like beginning, but then it's like he's writing the prescription for stuff down.

[Martina Castro]

It's a scribble.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. This does remind me of Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith also, I'm going to get the exact numbers wrong so former Mormons don't yell at me. But he was said to have only like a second grade reading level or something. So how could he possibly translate the full Book of Mormon so eloquently? It had to have been coming from somewhere divine.

[Martina Castro]

Well, when he writes, it's not him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's the doctor.

[Martina Castro]

He's the doctor.

[Lola Blanc]

Shit.

[Martina Castro]

He's the doctor.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, so he's two people.

[Martina Castro]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

He's the medium.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. So when he is himself, he's the medium, and they call him the medium. And that's, you know, Joo de Deos, John of God. When he is channeling a spirit, he is the entity. And the entity is literally any spirit that he is channeling.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So there's not one particular entity. It's like anyone who's like, I'm fixing my karma. I'm gonna heal these people.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. But he had, like, a couple common ones. Like, this Portuguese doctor would always come through him. I mean, he would walk differently. It looked like he was embodying another being.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's all very cinematic.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like the opening scene of our series is the. It's like watching a movie. Totally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can you talk a little bit about some of the practices besides the healings that involved telling people what to do with their lives?

[Martina Castro]

Great question. Well, first of all, he ends up in this little town. Nothing was happening there. It's not too far from the capital city, but it's like one of those towns you drive through literal street, main road goes through the town, and on one side is where everybody lives, and then on the other side is where they gave him this land where he could have this spiritual hospital. And so all of a sudden, it's like, you've got tourists from Australia and the Netherlands and the United States and people from all over Brazil flocking to this town. Thousands of people. And so businesses crop up. A lot of tour bus operators, guides, posada owners. The posadas were where you could stay, crystal shops. I mean, everything. And so the town very quickly becomes dependent on la casa and some of the, like, rules. There was a lot of rules. There's a guidebook, actually, where you can see some of these. For example, you had to wear white. And so everyone who's in this town is wearing white. And so you already know that there's something. Oh, this is interesting. Everybody's wearing white. That's to make your aura lighter and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Easier to read again, so cinematic.

[Martina Castro]

Mm. And everybody descends upon the casa in the morning. So it's like 7am and these people are all walking, and many of them walking barefoot again so that you could feel the earth and, like, get the energy from the earth and, like, holding their crystals and stuff. And they even said not to wear jewelry or anything metal. So this ended up becoming, like, translated. Some people didn't wear underwear or didn't wear bras. You know, it's like you're literally just like, this flowing, like, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I was like, don't obstruct your waist. And so people were like, I don't want to, like, have underwear, like, like, clenching my waist. But it made sense. It made sense.

[Martina Castro]

And so, you know, it's just so important to put yourself in the moment. And everyone's doing it right. This is not like a bunch of people who you can't imagine being friends with. They're like, you know, professionals. They're people from all over, all walks of life. And you're talking to them over lunch and having coffee and trading stories. And so these people really feel like people who could be your tribe.

[Lola Blanc]

And well educated people who are, you know, like, oh, they know more.

[Martina Castro]

I guess you don't have to even be educated. But yeah, like if you see a doctor there, you're like, oh, okay, well.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Certainly gonna add more legitimacy.

[Lola Blanc]

It does, yeah.

[Martina Castro]

And then lots of like. So people would go in and meditate or pray. I'm really unclear on what they were doing. If they were praying. I think they were mostly praying. But you could also meditate with your eyes closed. And it was really important that you had your eyes closed. Eyes closed were like enforced. So they had people watching like, oh, hey, close your eyes, close your eyes. Like they would call you out if you opened your eyes. Cause you are not letting the energy enter you and you're not giving your energy. So the other thing is you would meditate to lend your energy to the mediums who were using your energy to.

[Lola Blanc]

Heal, which already gives you such a sense of purpose. That almost brings me to tears.

[Martina Castro]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Lola Blanc]

It's beautiful.

[Martina Castro]

And so you felt like you were giving back to these people you just met and healing them and helping them heal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It all feels like a very symbiotic spiritual system. Like the spirits are helping and then you're helping the mediums and the mediums are helping you. Lots of helping, which is all very well. That's the other thing feels very honorable and good.

[Martina Castro]

It was based on altruism and empathy and yeah. Giving of yourself. So I'm trying to think if there's any other roles worth mentioning, but those were the big ones.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So let's say like many people who went to see him, let's say my parent has cancer, it's terminal. I've seen every doctor here. It's hopeless. I'm gonna bring them to go see John of God. What actually happens once I get there? I get in line.

[Martina Castro]

You get in line. There's two different lines. There's lines for people who've already been seen and are doing a follow up visit or who are going for the first time. You're given a number and I think that that's how you end up being called up. And you're either seen in the morning or in the afternoon. And there's a break in the middle of the day. And in the break, I think, is when he would do his visible surgeries in front of everybody on a stage. Yeah. But in the morning and in the evening, in the afternoon, he is literally sitting in a chair healing people or going into that room and in front of everyone healing, like, a whole room of people with their eyes shut.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, Yeah. A very interesting person in your series is Michael.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Who kept peeking and seeing that John of God was, like, super bored. And that's one of the reasons that he was, like, not wanting people to peek, because he's just, like, yawning, staring up into space, like, scratching his leg.

[Martina Castro]

Can you imagine sitting in a chair for that long?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Martina Castro]

After all, this was actually another thing that people were, like, so impressed with him. They're like, he must be a good person. Look how much he gives of himself. Because he doesn't charge. This is all free.

[Lola Blanc]

The quotation marks you're using.

[Martina Castro]

I am using my hands to make.

[Lola Blanc]

Your quotation marks, which is like such a. Such a classic. Classic. Classic one. But, yeah, he did call this free healing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Martina Castro]

I mean, and they had a soup kitchen where you could get free soup. But of course. What does he ask that you do? Oh, you need to take these pills. Oh, you need to take this water. And those are sold.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Which cost money.

[Martina Castro]

They cost money, right? I mean, some. Some journalists did, like, the math, and it was quite a bit of money per month. Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Martina Castro]

And that's just the money from selling things. And then people would donate money because they're like, oh, spiritual hospital. Good work for free. Yeah. He healed me. He healed my. My brother. My dad. Let me give you my money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, that's. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna. You know what I'm gonna say? I'm gonna complain about the cult I grew up in. And they do the same thing. It's a. The beauty and the spirituality of it is that there's no money involved, except for the ones that we get in secret. And all the wills of people who die that we take all their money. And then it's, like, so annoying.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But also it reminds me of just like, take your free Internet class, but at the end, in order to actually complete the course, you have to spend. You have to buy this other thing. Like, you're not going to get the healing if you don't buy the stuff. So it's not free. No. Speaking to him is free. But getting the healing is not free.

[Martina Castro]

Not free.

[Lola Blanc]

Not free.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's false advertising.

[Martina Castro]

False advertising. I agree. But somehow it didn't. I mean, I think it did register that way for a lot of people. And they just went home because, like, you don't want to be the, you know, negative Nancy, for lack of a better word. Like, who's like, hey, you guys, I don't think he's gonna give it to us if we don't pay. Like, I'm sure people were disillusioned and just left.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Somebody had that energy around me while I was at the casa.

[Martina Castro]

Wouldn't you be like, get away from me.

[Lola Blanc]

Go home? Exactly.

[Martina Castro]

You need to go home.

[Lola Blanc]

Get away from me.

[Martina Castro]

I am drinking my, you know, Tiger Lily latte or whatever it is, and, you know, holding my.

[Megan Elizabeth]

My.

[Martina Castro]

My. Yeah, my bad energy.

[Lola Blanc]

I'd say they had bad energy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yeah, that'd be me. I'd have bad energy.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'd be like, well, no, I would keep my mouth shut because I wouldn't want to ruin other people's experiences for them.

[Lola Blanc]

But you would tell me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I would tell you, and then you'd be pissed, and.

[Lola Blanc]

Then it would be awkward, and then I'd remain mentally ill. It's not. Yeah. How much money were the tour guides bringing in? Cause that struck me.

[Martina Castro]

I think, if I remember correctly, it was like, two to three thousand dollars per person sometimes. And just to explain who they were, you know, as you're seeing, you're waiting in line. In our reporting, we found that some people mentioned that, you know, they thought they were being spied on so that, you know, somehow someone would slip, you know, john, I've got a paper. And be like, hey, this guy. This guy.

[Lola Blanc]

He's.

[Martina Castro]

He's from the States. Like, oh, this one. She's from France. And then he would. When he's in his trance or whatever, and seeing him. Seeing them would be like, you have been chosen to bring people from your country to this place. And they would feel so special. And, I mean, not everyone would get chosen. That was. You had to have his permission. Let's put it that way. You couldn't just, like, start bringing people. You couldn't do anything in that town without his express permission. And he took a cut.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of course he did.

[Martina Castro]

Okay. Yeah, he took his cut. So the tour guide. Some. Some didn't charge. Some charged what it cost, you know, or would charge just enough to finance their trips. Cause they wanted to go. But some really made a lot of money off of it. It's not that expensive to go to Brazil. I just got here. What? A ticket can cost between a thousand and fourteen hundred dollars to go to Latin America.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Martina Castro]

But they were charging $3,000, and you would get a stay and have a tour guide. I mean, people did need tour guides, and they did need translators. They were coming without speaking a word of Portuguese. But it seemed fishy to some people that they were allowed to charge. And it. It kind of lent itself to being okay. Well, he really wants to incentivize foreigners to come here. And that was their. His system. I mean, it really. It worked because the tour guides would bring people, those people would some of them become tour guides, bring more people, et cetera, et cetera.

[Lola Blanc]

Then Oprah. Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, it must have been such an exciting place to visit if there's, like, people there from all over the world. Like, I have to imagine it'd be just, like, brimming with energy.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah. I have never been to a place that was supposedly holy. I've never done that kind of trip. But if I happened upon that place and people were like, there's something really special here, and everyone's telling you that, and you see it in their face and you feel it, like, literally emanating off their bodies, and people really said that it was just like being high walking around there.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Martina Castro]

Like everyone was awake, you know, to the world or something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Seems like an experience I'd want to have even if it was fake, you know?

[Martina Castro]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna say I listened to Monastery wants to meditate for two weeks. Okay. And there was no healing promised. It was just, like, a course that you could take in my school program. But we were, like, away in a different country, quiet, meditating all day. Like, the energy that builds up is insane, you know, Like, I believe it. Yeah. And whether or not that's of a spiritual nature, not to be debated. I'm just saying there is an energy when people are super still and all focused together for hours at a time. Totally. And all of this is just leaning more and more power and agency to him. That's not even really the one doing anything.

[Martina Castro]

Well, what's interesting is, as things start to unravel, which, spoiler alert, they do, even people who were believers or also mediums, there were like, something's a little off. Because if we're all capable of channeling, why is he saying he's the only one who can do so. So such and such thing? Or why is he trying to, you know, get cozy with powerful people like it just. It even was. He was even betraying his own belief system at some point. And that was what kind of tipped some people off or made them like, well, this doesn't feel right.

[Lola Blanc]

And acknowledging you can be in that state and be like, I must be wrong. Right.

[Martina Castro]

Right. Or, I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to jeopardize the good work I'm doing. Exactly. So many good people. I really want to stress that just because you might have gone there or even bought a house there or lived there or followed him, you know, does not mean you're a bad person. But. But good people got wrapped up into a really messy and convoluted system of deceit, and with good intentions, end up covering up or explaining away things that were wrong for decades.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, Lola, I know what you're gonna ask me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're correct.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would. Bitch. I'd join it. Yeah. Scissors up my nose. I do all of it. And I am so scared of all the things that could have happened to me that luckily didn't. So to anybody who did fall prey to him. I'm so sorry. Please listen to next week's episode. It just gets so much more horrible. But there's a lot there that I think we can use to help protect people in the future and to keep the pressure on John of God in particular.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you think that you are less susceptible to cults because you're so susceptible to cults, like, because you're like, oh, this community seems amazing. You'd also be like, but these other communities also seem amazing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that's an interesting question. You're saying, like, I'm so. Add that one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Like, it seems like you're in. You're kind of like a cult hopper. You have, like, spiritual wanderlust where you, like, kind of want to try every community and try everything.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm never going to commit to one cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's what I'm saying.

[Martina Castro]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, and. And the new, flashier one. I'm always gonna run in the middle of the night with my little. With my little sack of clothes that they let me keep. And that. That is the facts, Jax. So, yeah, you're right. And also, just weirdly, like, so many things, even when I was super susceptible to this stuff, I was like, no. Like, there was just a lot of, like, weird little things that I. That I wouldn't like, and it would turn me off the whole thing. So, so much luck. A little bit of discretion, but absolute cult hopper to my core. At the end of the day, did that answer anything?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It did. It's kind of how I feel. Nope. That's not. That's not a comparable thing at all. I was gonna reference the fact that I've never gotten a tattoo and because I just, like, can't imagine wanting to commit to something for that long, you know? And I feel like it feels similar in my head, but when I say it out loud, it doesn't sound that similar, but you know what I mean.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure. I was eating with this older man the other night who's friends with my friend, and he was like, have you ever been married? And I was like, no. And he was like, you shouldn't tell people that. They'll think there's something wrong with you. And I was like, do you think I haven't had the opportunity to be married 50,000 times? Like, I can't. Deci. Can't commit to that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's craz.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah, I can't commit to a marriage, a cult, whatever. Like, correct good instincts on that, Lola. But John of God could have gotten me for a good year. Hell yeah. Hell, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Good to know oneself.

[Lola Blanc]

Good to know oneself. And good to know yourself. And that. You're listening to our show.

[Martina Castro]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Rate it. Five stars. We know you love it. Come back next week. Next week is just absolutely incredible. Love next week's interview, too. As always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags, and never, ever trust me. Bye.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Lola Blanc]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Lola Blanc]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Lola Blanc]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You can find us on Instagram usmepodcast or on TikTok at trustmecultpodcast.

[Lola Blanc]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Me on the the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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