Matthew Remski, Part 1 - Seizures, Spirituality, & the First Charismatic Guru

Summary

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Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Matthew Remski, Part 1 – Seizures, Spirituality, & the First Charismatic Guru

Date: April 15, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Matthew Remski (author, co-host of Conspirituality Podcast)

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Episode Overview

This episode kicks off a two-part conversation with Matthew Remski, a writer, cult dynamics researcher, and host of the Conspirituality podcast. Remski gives a firsthand account of how he became deeply involved in high-demand spiritual groups, starting with his initial religious sensitivities, a period of mysterious seizures, and his eventual entanglement with his first charismatic guru, Michael Roach. Through candid discussion, Remski and the hosts explore the psychological, social, and physical effects of immersion in cultic environments, the paradoxical allure of charismatic leaders, and the deeply human search for belonging and meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure of Ivy League Charisma & Culty Institutions

(03:32 – 08:42)

• Hosts discuss the “cultiest thing” of the week, focusing on how Ivy League and elite educational environments can have cult-like qualities, fostering blind faith in credentials and unhealthy group dynamics.

  • Megan reflects:

    "...there's just so much blind faith in the people who have gone to these schools that they have some special knowledge..." (07:16, Megan Elizabeth)

  • Lola adds:

    "I definitely have fallen prey to that. And I feel that for sure. But at the same time, you know, depending on the field, you do want someone with genuine credentials. So it's so hard." (07:46, Lola Blanc)

• Comparison of hazing practices in prestigious fraternities to coercive control and cultic socialization.

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2. Disorganized Attachment, Trauma Bonding & Intermittent Reinforcement

(08:49 – 13:47)

• Lola draws a line between cult dynamics and unhealthy romantic relationships, particularly the role of intermittent reinforcement—a mix of comfort and pain that fosters addiction to inconsistency.

  "We don't know if they're gonna give us love today or if they're gonna give us punishment today." (10:58, Lola Blanc)

• Megan cites research about people being more susceptible to trauma bonds formed under intermittent reinforcement.

  "...a bond like that, that's not just consistent, that is a trauma bond makes it...you're 46% more likely to be addicted to it." (11:09, Megan Elizabeth)

• Insight: Biological responses to unpredictability underpin many forms of manipulation, be it in cults or personal relationships.

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3. Matthew Remski’s Early Religious Fascination & Disillusionment

(17:03 – 21:58)

• Remski describes being raised Catholic, immersed in both progressive and conservative religious communities.

  “...the communion bread was like black Russian rye bread... it just felt like communion. It felt like a meal... all of these incredibly warm feelings from this place.” (18:32, Matthew Remski)

• Moment of early skepticism/disillusionment:

  "...I realized that I'm looking at an icon of Mary... that's not her. That actually this is made of plaster... that moment... shrank my and sharpened my religious experience down to the material." (20:00, Matthew Remski)

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4. Seizures, Geschwin Syndrome & Hyper-Religiosity

(21:58 – 25:43)

• Remski recounts experiencing idiopathic grand mal seizures, with no clear medical cause, during a period of stress and alienation.

• Links his obsessive interest in spirituality and prolific writing to characteristics of Geschwin syndrome (a rare condition linked to seizures and hyper-religiosity).

  "...people who have frontotemporal epilepsy and go through a series of seizures might find themselves absolutely obsessed with religion, and not necessarily in a devotional sense, but also...I want to look at this thing from all angles..." (23:00, Matthew Remski)

• Hosts recall research and stories that draw connections between neurological phenomena (like seizures) and hyper-religiosity—a potential underlying factor in some cult leader behavior.

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5. Economic & Existential Vulnerability as an Entryway to High-Demand Groups

(28:33 – 29:47)

• Remski situates his turn to spiritual groups within a broader context of economic and communal despair in the 1990s.

  "...it seemed to be the vital and open doorway for any kind of sensible living or trying to be productive or to make something of myself in this kind of accelerating neoliberalism..." (28:33, Matthew Remski)

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6. Meeting Charismatic Guru Michael Roach

(29:51 – 36:10)

• Describes his first encounter with Michael Roach, a Harvard-educated Buddhist teacher, recalling the powerful psychological “hook” of Roach’s direct proclamations and the allure of his intelligence and charisma.

  "Michael Roach seemed to look at me and say, do you know you're dying and I don't think you're doing anything about it." (32:07, Matthew Remski)

• Roach’s combination of academic credentials, spiritual authority, and personalized attention made him especially magnetic for Remski.

  "...what really attracted me to him is that this was a guy who was white and whose life I could kind of mirror..." (34:45, Matthew Remski)

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7. Daily Life and the Machinery of High-Demand Groups

(41:23 – 43:59)

• Routines centered on endless self-inventory, proselytization, and the demands of Roach’s programs; an environment engineered for emotional dependency and productivity—often with shifting or impossible goals.

  "The day was organized around perpetual kind of taking inventory of yourself and measuring your actions against this long list of vows..." (41:23, Matthew Remski)

• Discussion of how cult leaders keep followers striving for some ultimate “eventual arrival”—enlightenment, transformation—that never actually materializes.

  "...with a charismatic leader... it really depends on the capacity to make the follower really believe that something's about to come of something." (40:35, Matthew Remski)

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8. Charismatic Behavior, Power Dynamics & Gender in Roach’s Circle

(36:41 – 40:30)

• Remski notes Roach’s extreme emotional expressiveness and the often ambiguous, gender-bending, and secretive relationships with attendants—especially Christy McNally.

  “He might, in the midst of any prayer... burst into tears. And I think it was earnest. And I found that to be extraordinary...” (37:16, Matthew Remski)

• Lack of oversight or feedback mechanisms led to unchecked power and opportunism.

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9. Somatic & Psychological Effects: Physical Manifestations in Cultic Environments

(44:21 – 53:17)

• Remski describes witnessing and experiencing involuntary physical reactions during meditation—shivers, convulsions, and “Kundalini jitterbug”—and interprets this as both a social contagion and a trauma/attachment response.

  “I could feel there was some kind of, you know, social somatic contagion that could be activated. Like, I could feel trembling myself...” (44:34, Matthew Remski)

• Cites researcher Alexandra Stein’s theory that euphoric, physical cult experiences are rooted in the trauma bond—peak moments of “terror, love, and brainwashing.”

  “...the peak sensation of trauma bond can feel like euphoria because ... something happens neurologically that forces a kind of fawn response or some kind of surrender or collapse.” (49:49, Matthew Remski)

• Host Megan and guest connect these phenomena with their own meditation experiences, affirming the power of context and expectation in creating seemingly “spiritual” or extraordinary effects.

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10. Leaving & “Cult-Hopping”: The Spiral of Vulnerability

(53:19 – 57:48)

• Remski recounts how he left Roach’s group, feeling exploited and adrift, and was then easily drawn into another high-demand community led by Charles Anderson in the Wisconsin Dells (Endeavor Academy), underscoring the “cult-to-cult” migration dynamic.

  "I was three years behind in whatever sort of career pursuit I might have taken...I was lost again. And so I cult hopped, which is not that uncommon..." (54:46, Matthew Remski)

• Notes the irony of receiving “concerned letters” from one cult after joining another—highlighting the paradoxical insight (and blindness) within such groups.

  “...if you go to a second group, very concerned people from the first group will send you very concerned letters about how you've entered a cult.” (57:26, Matthew Remski)

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11. Reflection: Would You Have Joined?

(58:54 – 60:13)

• Hosts humorously assess whether they, too, would have joined Roach’s group, acknowledging their own susceptibility to charisma, credentials, and the lure of structured productivity.

  “I just really like that he had kind of a curriculum. ...I'm somebody who's very susceptible to his lineage ... put me in, coach.” (58:58, Megan Elizabeth)
  “I might join you on. ... because I would fall for the credential, I'd fall for the Harvard thing...” (59:35, Lola Blanc)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Like, geniuses can join cults. Crazy. I know.” (04:38, Megan Elizabeth)
• “We don't know if they're gonna give us love today or if they're gonna give us punishment today.” (10:58, Lola Blanc)
• “It felt like communion. It felt like a meal. Right. And I just had all of these incredibly warm feelings from this place.” (18:32, Matthew Remski)
• “I realized that...this is made of plaster. ...And so the specialness of whoever Mary was was kind of like dissolved into the mystery of whoever that plaster painter was.” (20:00, Matthew Remski)
• “Michael Roach seemed to look at me and say, do you know you're dying and I don't think you're doing anything about it.” (32:07, Matthew Remski)
• “It caused on a regular basis for me, this feeling of explosive release and catharsis that flooded my body with warmth...they would say, oh, that’s it. ...what might be a stress or a trauma response gets re-narrativized instantly by the group into proof of the efficacy of the spiritual practice.” (50:20/51:27, Matthew Remski)
• “If you go to a second group, very concerned people from the first group will send you very concerned letters about how you've entered a cult. So I got a bunch of those. That was a hoot.” (57:26, Matthew Remski)

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Highlight Timestamps

• 03:32: Ivy league as “culty” — socialization, blind faith, and groupthink
• 08:49: Trauma bonding and cultic manipulation — parallels with romantic relationships
• 17:03: Remski’s spiritual upbringing & early religious experiences
• 21:58: Seizures and the neurological roots of hyper-religiosity
• 28:33: Existential and economic vulnerability as a vector for cult involvement
• 32:07: First encounter with Michael Roach — the initial “hook”
• 41:23: A day in the life: structure, self-inventory, and exhaustion
• 44:34: Physical/somatic manifestations in meditation environments
• 49:49: The neuroscience of euphoria and trauma bonding in cults
• 54:46: Leaving, loss, and the cycle of “cult hopping”
• 57:26: The irony and concern of cross-cult warnings

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Tone & Style

• Thoughtful, candid, interwoven with dark humor and self-awareness
• Compassionate perspective on vulnerability, group belonging, and the universality of the urge to believe
• Conversational style, interspersed with personal anecdotes, psychological insight, and academic reference

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Coming Next

Part Two of the conversation with Matthew Remski will explore his experiences in the next spiritual community, further reflections on cult dynamics, patterns in the world of conspiracies, and “what Marx has to do with any of it.” Stay tuned!

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Transcript

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is exactly right.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Matthew Remsky]

Trust me

[Public Sponsor/Announcer]

do you trust me?

[Matthew Remsky]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me, this is the truth. The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two seekers who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes you are. And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes you are. And this week we are joined by Matthew Remsky, author and host of the Conspirituality Podcast. This is a crossover that's been a long time coming. In part one Today he's gonna talk to us about his own personal experiences with gurus and cultic dynamics and what led him to the topic of cults and conspiracies. He'll tell us about his own religious upbringing, the mysterious seizures he had that led to his fascination with spirituality and what drew him to his own first charismatic guru Michael Roach.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's right. He'll explain what an average day was like following Roach for three high demand years, traveling with him and attending his classes, what the physical manifestations of Matthew's spiritual experiences were like in both that group and the next one he joined, and what led to his disillusionment with the first group.

[Lola Blanc]

And next week, he will tell us how he cult hopped patterns he sees emerging in the world of cults and conspiracies and what Marx has to do with any of it. So stay tuned next week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh, ooh, ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

In the meantime, Megan, can you tell me your occultiest thing this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I absolutely can. One of the things that Matthew said in this interview that really struck me was that Michael, the person he followed, went to Harvard and how much Ivy League schools can be culty in and of themselves and how it's affected my own life. For example, my papa went to an Ivy League school, and that primed me to think that he had a better sense of gut instinct, which obviously an Ivy League school is not going to give you a gut instinct. You can be. You can be given a lot of great information. But, you know, my dad was also raised in this group, so it's not as if being an Ivy League school graduate made him like, oh, cool, I'm no longer susceptible to coercive control.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Like, there are people with all kinds of beliefs who have really excellent education.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

It doesn't preclude you from, like, being able to participate in a less mainstream belief for religion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally. Like, geniuses can join cults. Crazy. I know.

[Lola Blanc]

And start them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And start them. Turns out, turns out. So there's this story that happened in 2024 at the University of Iowa that's going viral the last couple months. I'm not sure how viral it is this week, but it's of a hazing incident at the University of Iowa where the Police cameras captured 56 male pledges blindfolded in a basement. And I think I sent you the video. I don't know if you watched it yet. It looks like a horror movie, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the officers are like, hello, what's happening? And they're not answering. And it's just like, whoa, this is scary.

[Lola Blanc]

Scary.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It made me think about how the University of Iowa obviously is a very prestigious school. It has the great writing workshop, but the fraternity culture still isn't the same as those of, like, let's say the Yale Skull and Bones, you know what I mean? And these are fraternities that Leaders of our country are joining where they're learning to be here humiliated, where they're learning to humiliate others, where they're willing to be in very abusive environments. And willing might not even be the word where they're coerced into this level of masochism being normal. And it just seems like a training ground for psychopaths to run our country, you know, and. And it's very culty, the whole thing. And yes, I want, like, people to have fun in their sororities and their fraternities and bop around if it's a healthy space. And maybe, you know, you, like, have to stay up all night one night.

[Lola Blanc]

Eat too much food.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Eat too much food. But. But my girlfriends who did go to Ivy League schools, I genuinely don't have a single guy. Oh, no, that's not true. But most of my girlfriends are the ones who went to Ivy League schools, not my guy friends. But, like, their sorority experiences were so intense where, like, they had to get naked and the girls in the grade above would circle all the parts of their bodies that they needed to lose weight on.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Horrible. But I knew my. My friends at K State University were. Were not doing that. So I don't know. Just an observation.

[Lola Blanc]

So basically you're saying that at Ivy League schools, these kind of extreme frats and sororities can be breeding grounds for people to accept bad behaviors or commit bad behaviors.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And my point is twofold, and that that is true. And then secondly, there's just so much blind faith in the people who have gone to these schools that they have some special knowledge or that, you know, that they are somehow more important. And for sure, yeah. Again, they're very smart people. They might have had access to great teachers and literature, but at the end of the day, they are just human beings. And I think it's important that we remember that.

[Lola Blanc]

I agree. As somebody who has absolutely been tricked by some Ivy League credentials before, only to discover that those people were either, like, the worst, are those just, like, individuals I'm referring to, or just like that credential doesn't inherently make them smarter than all of these other people I know or than me. You know what I mean? Like, I definitely have fallen prey to that. And I. And I feel that for sure. But at the same time, you know, depending on the field, you do want someone with genuine credentials. So it's so hard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally. And if. And if you're like, I went to an Ivy League school, fudge you. No, that's so cool. I'm so, like, that's so impressive and good for you.

[Lola Blanc]

I have a second date with a Harvard guy tomorrow, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect. Okay. You know, like, we're not. We're not being. I'm not being a hater on it. I just have noticed it's notable as my cultiest thing of the week after talking to Matthew, and one of the things being Harvard, that struck him about Michael.

[Lola Blanc]

Word. Word to that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Word to that. I hope your date goes well. What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

I guess I'm just talking about dating today because I was making connections based actually partially on this interview as well, and. And connecting them to my dating life. So in this interview, Matthew is talking about disorganized attachment style and the concept of, like, connecting this to how we relate to cult leaders. And you kind of likened it to trauma bonding, which is that intermittent reinforcement that happens when someone is both the source of pain and the source of comfort. And it's unpredictable, and we don't know when we're going to get the good part and when we're going to get the bad part. And I hadn't really connected all of those three concepts into different versions of the same thing, but I was dating someone recently, and I had a similar experience that I talked about, like, maybe a year ago, like, right after my breakup. But this is like, a different one where I was getting that intermittent reinforcement from someone where, like, it's, like, really strong, and then, like, there's a little withdrawal and then there's they're back and then there's withdrawal. And then I noticed in myself that it created a feeling of addiction. That is not my typical style of relating. I would consider myself generally, like, pretty stable and secure and not running anxious unless somebody is doing something to produce that feeling in me. And I guess it just made me think about, well, one, like, these responses are biological. If somebody is there and then they're not, and you don't know when they're going to be there, and you don't know when they're not going to be there, or you don't know when you're going to get the nice guru or the mean guru. Like, it's actually not reflective of anything wrong with us that we.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That.

[Lola Blanc]

That would make us then desperate and hungry for the good side of them, because that's literally what mice do when the food comes out in an unpredictable way. They sit there and they wait for it to come out because they don't know when it's going to come out. And they're they become addicted to it. It's the same thing that happens to us both in relationships where the partner is inconsistent. And also in cultic dynamics where we don't know if they're gonna give us love today or if they're gonna give us punishment today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's a statistic that I'm gonna botch. Unless you want me to look it up.

[Lola Blanc]

Botch it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it's.

[Lola Blanc]

Botch it, babe, let's just botch it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's from that really great book, Run Like Hell where she talks about how a bond like that, that's not just consistent, that is a trauma bond makes it. They've done research where it's like you're 46% more likely to be addicted to it.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right, right. Oh, Ira. Yes. We have talked about this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Even if that's not the exact number, the general idea is correct.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. So, you know, it's worth being aware of because everybody in society is like in a very laughy way, like, hahaha, I like him because he doesn't like me or like he like sometimes I'm like. And it's like, oh no. Like we are biologically, horrifically so designed to respond the best to that and that we're gonna give it our most attention and our most energy. And I don't know why that is. Probably because a million years ago the most unpredictable person was like who you needed to please or they would kill you. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So it is like why, why, why would we be programmed that way? But it's true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I think it's just like seeking secure attachment. Secure attachment meant a secure place in the world, which meant safety. Right. And so if we don't know if that attachment is secure, then it makes sense that we would be like seeking to secure it. I guess.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

That's my non professional assessment.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And if somebody's just giving you a hundred percent not secure, it's like duh, you leave.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. But if there's that hope being dangled, like I'll get the good one, I'll get the good, I'm gonna get on the good side eventually. You know, if I do just the right thing or if I withdraw enough or whatever the fuck. And it makes me think about what we've talked about a bunch, which is this idea that like us knowing that someone is exhibiting narcissistic tendencies or, or whatever, like antisocial tendencies. We sometimes have the illusion that knowing it means we're not gonna be susceptible to it. But of course the biology is the biology. And what happens in our brains happens regardless of whether we're aware of it. And that addiction can be formed. And so the only thing you can do is cut it off.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so freaking annoying when you have a friend who's like, I know, like, my ex is terrible and whatever, but like, I get it now. I'm just gonna sleep with him and like, be the one to leave him. And you're like, bye forever now. You know, it's just like silly, silly, silly, silly stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

But in, in your brain. It's like, I need, I need it. You know, like, it's so, it's, it's so difficult to, to truly detach and truly do no contact. Like, it's very difficult. Anyway, that's my, that's my basic bitch. Dating is like a cult point of the day.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I love it.

[Lola Blanc]

Also, I don't want to forget to mention that the Netflix series with the same name as this podcast, Trust Me is out about my mom's experience going undercover to take down a false prophet. So if you haven't watched it yet, go ahead and check it out. It is called Trust Me, the False Prophet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I've already started watching the show actually, and it is so well done. And Lola, your song that they play at the beginning is so moving. It's so perfect. And yeah, I can't wait for people to enjoy the show.

[Lola Blanc]

All right, Matthew Remsky, let's do it.

[Public Sponsor/Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with ease, infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Matthew Remsky to Trust me.

[Matthew Remsky]

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like this is a crossover moment that people have been asking about for a long time. Can spirituality and trust me, come up in the same conversations a lot? And look, we're doing it. We're here, right? So exciting. So you are an expert on cold spirit, both in your podcast as well as books you've written. But I would love for us to start with your own personal experiences. So it all originated with some seizures that you had, is that correct?

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, first of all, that's a really deep cut because I'm not sure where you came across that, but that is a part of my life for sure. You do your research, clearly. Yeah. I mean, I think that something starts with seizures for me. I can get to that. But I think that also I was always religiously or spiritually fascinated and sensitive and maybe even obsessed, like Christianity or. Yeah, I was brought up Catholic. And my first sort of real contact with that in a sort of, I don't know, like a way that has stayed with me and that's reawakened or that hasn't really left, came through my parents being involved with a community here in Toronto called the Cardinal Newman center, which was kind of like the most leftist, radical Catholic parish in Canada during the 1970s.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting.

[Matthew Remsky]

It was pretty much the only place where, you know, liberation theology was being taught. But I didn't know anything about that. When I was six years old, what I could feel was that the place was just filled with some kind of hope and warmth and joy. And I remember particularly that the communion bread was like black Russian rye bread that was partially leavened, but it came from the bakery down the street. And you could buy it during the week, but when it was in the hands of the priest or the nun who is sort of handing it to you, that it just felt like. It felt like communion. It felt like a meal. Right. And I just had all of these incredibly warm feelings from this place. And then I had this other experience, which was that my parents wanted me to have, like, a musical experience or some kind of education with musical discipline. And there was a very conservative Catholic church parish community called St. Michael's Choir School that you could go to that was almost, you know, like a throwback to a pre Vatican II, you know, 1950s kind of place with that politics and aesthetics. And it was there that I really became a little bit, I suppose, disillusioned with what Max Weber calls the routinization of charisma. That whatever was, like, really inspiring or really hopeful about a kind of spiritual or religious message had been flattened out into a kind of institutional performance. And I remember this moment when I was 8 years old or so where I realized that I'm looking at an icon of Mary in St. Michael's Cathedral, and it finally occurs to me that that's not her. That actually this is made of plaster. And not only is it made of plaster, but I can tell that it's been painted. And I can tell that the painting actually isn't very good. And I can also see how it's been chipped. And I realized that, oh, somebody did this, like, another person like me put a kind of effort into this in the same way that I would put effort into, like, a drawing of a dinosaur in, you know, class or something like that. And there was something about that that I Think shrank my and sharpened my religious experience down to the material. Like, it was disillusioning in the sense that, like, I didn't feel the warmth that I had felt previously. But I also realized that, like, religious and spiritual activity is something that people just do. And they. And they might be making it up. They might be. They're doing their best at something, and they're doing their best with the materials they have and the skills that they have. And that's not really different from the skills that I have. And so the specialness of whoever Mary was was kind of like dissolved into the mystery of whoever that plaster painter was. Interesting.

[Lola Blanc]

This was when you were six years old, is that what you said?

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, six was the really warm experience. About eight was like. Or eight, maybe nine was. Was when I'm standing there in the cathedral going, wow, this is kind of fake. What's going on here?

[Lola Blanc]

That's such a profound revelation for an 8 year old.

[Matthew Remsky]

I think I'm odd. And I think that what happens later, because you asked about seizures, is that a period of deep personal stress, alienation from family, not knowing what I was going to do with my career? I did come to a point, and this was, you know, not involving any kind of substance use or, you know, probably not enough sleep for sure. But I started to have a period of grand mal seizures that were really. I mean, they turned out to be idiopathic because when I actually went for the neurological tests, finally, they couldn't find any abnormalities.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you define idiopathic?

[Matthew Remsky]

There was no cause found.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So what it was was I would wake up in my apartment with my furniture tipped over on the floor and the books all on the floor, and I wouldn't really have a memory of what had happened. Now, I think how that connects to whatever religious sensitivity I have is that there's a very odd form of epileptic sort of diagnosis called Geschwin's syndrome, which I was never formally diagnosed with, but it's characterized by, you know, people who have frontotemporal epilepsy and go through a series of seizures might find themselves absolutely obsessed with religion, and not necessarily in a devotional sense, but also in a kind of, you know, neurodivergent info dumping. I want to look at this thing from all angles and try to figure out exactly how it works. And I think I identify very strongly with that. And also, Geschwin syndrome is associated with hypergraphia, which is you basically can't stop writing. And I'm not the person who is Filling up their walls and their ceilings with tiny text, which can happen. But I think I write an inordinate amount. And so those are sort of interesting, you know, neurological features about me that, you know, I don't really have an answer for. I haven't had seizures a long time and. But the fascination with religion and certainly the obsessive writing have continued.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, the human brain is so interesting because we did an episode with Anne, we called her Anne, who experienced a psychosis which is very different than a seizure. But she suddenly became obsessed with spirituality, writing, writing all day long. And it's like there's almost this little wire in our brain that can be tripped. And it's very fascinating to me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And I just was thinking about our very old episode. This is a very early episode of the show, so it's probably really poorly edited cause I was editing it myself, but it was with Yuval Lauer. Do you know who he is?

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh yes. Oh my gosh. How is he doing? I haven't seen or heard from him in a long time. Neither.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, we haven't either. It's been a few years. But for those who don't know and want to check out the episode, it's he researches temporal lobe epilepsy and talks about hyper religiosity and how they're connected. And it's very, very interesting. And we were kind of hypothesizing on that episode like how many cult leaders are not necessarily like maliciously inventing some of these things, but are literally just experiencing hyperreligiosity from seizures of this kind.

[Matthew Remsky]

100%.

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[Lola Blanc]

So from that point on you kind of sort of intensified your interest in spirituality.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. And I think really the context was a kind of economic and political despair. Right. Like it's not just that I was fascinated with religion, but that that seemed to be the vital and open doorway for any kind of sensible living or trying to be productive or to make something of myself in this kind of accelerating neoliberalism where, as I said, like I just was not sure in the mid-1990s what I was going to do. Like I was writing novels and they were being published. I wasn't making any money doing that. They were very well acclaimed. But it's like I was just at a loss. And I also felt that there wasn't really Any kind of strong social and political movements on the go that were available to provide any kind of structure for me to have communal life. And so I ended up finding those things in various religious groups.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What was the first one you found, the first religious group?

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, I was living in Vermont, and my partner at the time had been very interested in Buddhism, and her contact with that had come through Shambhala Buddhism. And she had spent a number of times in the main center there in Boulder, Colorado. And through her, we had Buddhist friends in this little. Well, it's the capital town of Vermont, Montpelier. And one of our friends, Mari Cordes, actually, who went on to run for Vermont state Senate, and I think took a similar trajectory to mine, actually, she phoned me up one day, and she said, you know, there's this guy coming to town, and he's a pretty, you know, charismatic Buddhist teacher. And I think you might really enjoy what he has to say. His name is Michael Roach, and his group was the first that I was kind of drawn into, but in a very kind of immediate, I would say, almost catastrophic way. I think that, you know, to extend this kind of, like, mental health narrative that I'm telling, I. I was probably clinically depressed at the time, and, you know, again, undiagnosed. It was not in my sort of social culture or my family culture to seek out psychotherapy or, you know, really try to figure out how to take care of myself in any way. I was quite sort of antisocial in many respects. And, yeah, Mari said, you should come to this meeting. And I went to the meeting, and this sort of classic. Is it Holy Hell, in which. With Harvey Keitel and. Who is the Titanic actor?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, Kate Winslet.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Kate Winslet, where she goes to the ashram and she has the moment in which she feels that, you know, her forehead is opening up because the guru's staring directly at her and she falls down a rabbit hole. I had something similar to that sens, which I think emerges out of it. Emerges out of, like, just a intersection of stresses, really, and somebody saying something that is both true and deceptive at the same time. And Michael Roach seemed to look at me and say, do you know you're dying and I don't think you're doing anything about it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, well, Michael Roach, my God, tell

[Lola Blanc]

me what to do about that.

[Matthew Remsky]

So that was a hook. And I think he was in town for a couple of days. And within, you know, by day three or something like that, I had a private meeting. And, you know, I Said, I would like to learn more about this Buddhist lineage that you know about and that you've learned. And he nodded and he looked at me, and to his credit, he said, you know, just so you know, this will be a struggle and there will be a lot of heartache. And I was like, okay. And he had this way of being sort of partially transparent about whatever was actually going on in the group or in your relationship with him. And, yeah, that was three years of high demand life that initiated then.

[Lola Blanc]

Were you living close to him or.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, it involved. At one point, there was a lot of traveling with his inner circle, for one thing. But then at one point there was, you know, we're gonna move to New York City and stay in a fellow student's apartment, spare room for six, eight months or something like that, and go to class, go to meetings every day, learn as much as we can. And there was kind of like a pseudo university thing that was part of the program. He said that he wanted to institute the Tibetan monastic educational system in American form. You know, here are the courses that you have to go through. Here are the study guides. Here's all the homework. Here are the quizzes that you have to take. You know, we're going to give you oral exams. So it was sort of semi formal. And, you know, he'd been to Harvard. He'd, you know, he'd gotten, I think, a master's degree in something. So he had an academic bent to him. And I think also he seemed to be able to recite dozens of Shlokas at a time of medieval Tibetan scripture in a way that I found very impressive. But of course, I couldn't fact check. So there were these marks of credibility to him that I found very kind of reassuring. But I think, if I'm really honest, what really attracted me to him is that this was a guy who was white and whose life I could kind of mirror in the sense that maybe I, too, could completely abandon and transcend my Canadian American identity and just become something completely else. Because there was something about being who I was that just was not right. It wasn't working.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, yeah, so to this point, you kind of externalized enlightenment and things of that nature and been like, that can't happen to me. But Michael's like, it happened to me. And you're similar.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, I don't even know that enlightenment was a. A fixation of mine so much as, wow, it must feel really good to not be the person you were.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right. To leave this broken, confused, transgressive kind of hypercritical identity behind and to feel that one is participating in something very meaningful.

[Lola Blanc]

This is not an important detail, but I like to, like, look up images of these gurus.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And very odd face, this man. It's not.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But like compelling. Like, interesting. It's not dissimilar to the skullet man we talked about in a recent episode. And I can't remember which leader that was, but feels like he would be in. I'm trying to think of a director who would cast him and I can't. A Coen Brothers movie or something. Like, very distinct looking.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yep. Yeah, I agree.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, what was his overall demeanor?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, what was the vibe?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. What's his vibes?

[Matthew Remsky]

I would say that there was a couple of key for me, attractive or at least magnetic features. And one was that he was like me, hair trigger, emotionally incontinent. So he might, in the midst of any prayer, any supplication, any mantra, burst into tears.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Matthew Remsky]

Over the. And I think it was earnest.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

And I found that to be extraordinary. And I think I still do. And I think it's a character, you know, it's a part of him that I appreciate. And then there was another thing that was a lot more complicated and eventually twisted, and that was that he was ostensibly a celibate monk and he also had these personal assistants or attendants around him. There was usually three. And the main one, her name is Christy McNally. And so there's a whole story that goes on after I leave about her and what happens with her partner. But the notion that they were also sort of creating some kind of spiritual marriage or relationship was. I did not have enough feminism on board at the time to just sort of see the basics of, like, you are twice as old as this woman and she is basically running your show day and night, waiting on you hand and foot. But what mitigated that was that the practice that they were doing together, which we weren't allowed to know that much about because it was secret and tantric involved a certain amount of like genderqueer performance. So the dedication in that form of tantra from that lineage of Tibetan Buddhism was towards a deity called Vajrayogini. And so if you looked at pictures, Lola, and you saw him with very long hair, that's in his phase. And he might be wearing jewelry. That's in his phase. In which he's literally dressing up and imagining himself as a 16 year old female deity. Woman deity, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

White Lotus.

[Matthew Remsky]

He's not only a woman, a young woman, but A young woman who is nude, a young woman who is sexually aroused, a young woman who is tasting the bliss of existence while trampling on the enemies of ego and so on. So that was all like. I think that was sufficiently, like, in a Jungian sense, it was rich enough for me to kind of believe that there was something going on here that was very interesting and kind of unique. And it allowed me to sort of miss the fact that these are the very same points of interest that he's actually employing. Or, you know, employing is maybe not the word, but they wind up really bamboozling people with regard to what they're doing for him and what the power imbalances are. So there's the very imbalanced power imbalance and potentially abusive sexual relationships going on, but then there's also the sort of constant labor that has to be done to fulfill every single sort of instinct and whim that he has to produce These projects that are about nothing, they do nothing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like the Seinfeld of spirituality or something.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, I mean, I might make that joke, but I mean, what's deceptive about it is that, and I think this is true for many charismatic leaders is that it really depends on the capacity to make the follower really believe that something's about to come of something. Right?

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Matthew Remsky]

And you know, in a way, it takes all of your sort of capitalistic training around what are we going to make happen? And then it promises that it will be finished at a certain point.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. And then you'll be happy.

[Matthew Remsky]

And then you'll be happy. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I want to know what a day in your life looked like. And I want to know what was promised for this ending. If it's not enlightenment, what were you all going for?

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, well, definitely the overt promise was enlightenment. I don't really believe that I had a firm belief in the metaphysics of that. Like, that wasn't really part of why I was engaged. I thought think that it was much more the sort of community stabilization or apparently what that provided. The day was organized around perpetual kind of taking inventory of yourself and measuring your actions against this long list of vows that you had taken for various levels of attainment. There was a lot of work in trying to disseminate and proselytize the actual materials of the organization. And then you sort of made money on the side however you could. And then at the end of the day, if you were in a sort of teaching season, then you'd show up for the 7 o' clock class and he would arrive an hour late and you'd be there till 12 o' clock and then you'd have to get up at 5 in the morning to do the meditation again. So it was extraordinarily compressed and centralized and constellated around him and his particular needs. And yeah, he created a lot of make work projects for people as well, partly because he wanted to expand his markets as much as he could. And then, you know, so he would, if somebody came in and they have business experience, he would help them set up a, you know, the Enlightened Business Institute so that they could, you know, teach Buddhism to wealthy people in Hong Kong or whatever. If somebody came from Russia and they had ties to oligarchs, then that was great too. He would do a special program for them. It was like he was extremely, extremely opportunistic and just completely on his own, like with no institutional guardrails, no, you know, support, no feedback. There was, there was nobody there to tell Michael Roach, hey, do you want to cut that bit of bullshit out? Do you want to really try to justify. And that's the thing is that, is that it's very easy with a charismatic leader who doesn't get feedback and who builds their sort of identity, not only a relationship to their followers, but also an isolation from anybody who would sort of check them. That's, that's pretty standard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I mean, to just bring that back down to earth for listeners, I think it's like celebrities, you know, who get surrounded by yes men and suddenly. Yeah, you're like, what happened to blank?

[Matthew Remsky]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

I was curious to hear a bit about some of the heightened spiritual experiences that you had in this group and also in the next one, but start with this one.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, we spent a little bit too

[Lola Blanc]

much time on the first group. Yeah, we can move on to the next one shortly. But that involved like literal physical sensations and movement and can you talk about what those were and what you attribute them to?

[Matthew Remsky]

So in the first group that I was in, there would be people who sat close to Michael Roach, who. And one of them was Ian Thorson, who went on to actually die because I would say of neglect, because there was a real administrative failure in terms of whether he was provided care during a retreat. And there are many people who assign some of that blame to Michael Roach. But there was a number of people in the inner circle who would sit around Michael Roach in meditation and they would jolt and shiver and buck their heads and sometimes snort, sometimes they would cough in odd ways. Sometimes they would yell out almost like, I don't know, like cowboy yodels or something like that. It sounds funny, and that did not happen to me. But I could feel that as I sat in these sort of planned and timed meditations as well. And it was happening in front of me. I could feel there was some kind of, you know, social somatic contagion that could be activated. Like, I could feel trembling myself. Like, I don't think that shivers up the spine are that uncommon for people who are either, you know, contemplating difficult things or, you know, experiencing feelings of beauty. My understanding is that that's not uncommon. And I think these are sort of accelerated or intensified bits of that. But I think there's another component as well. And I'm just saying this also not as a neurologist. So I don't know what the mechanisms are. I think that it's in the next group that I had a full experience and almost daily experience of, you know, what I've sometimes called Kundalini jitterbug, which is a spontaneous and sometimes unstoppable until you're actually physically exhausted. Series of convulsions. And usually it's vertically oriented. There's a lot having to do with, like, flexion and extension of the spine rapidly. And that seems to be correlated with what people will say about. Oh, the energetic body has these lines and stuff like that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean. Yeah, I can't relate with you more. I got really into Kundalini. I can't explain some of the things that happened, but I will say one time I went to a monastery in France to meditate for two weeks.

[Lola Blanc]

And you've never mentioned this before.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no, I have, but we haven't dealt.

[Matthew Remsky]

This is great.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We haven't dealt too deep into it, but there was one day that nobody came to the meditation class besides me, and it was me and France, something. The meditation teacher. And we're sitting there for like two hours. And I almost was like, orgasmic feeling. And I was. And that's not like a state that comes easily to me.

[Lola Blanc]

Takes a lot of word.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I was just like, what the fuck is happening? Like, I don't know if it's just sitting with yourself. Connecting to another person so deeply is automatically enlivening your body in a certain way. I don't know.

[Matthew Remsky]

But yeah, well, there's. Well, there's expectation, there's uncertainty. I think there can be, like, physical feelings of compression if you are sitting for too long. I don't believe that these things are disconnected from sort of a jolt you might have as you're Beginning to fall asleep, either. Right. Or some kind of reaction to sleep paralysis. But it's interesting that you mentioned that particular sort of context too, because I think that the sensations can be almost. They can be celebratory or orgasmic, as you say, but they can also be regressive or transgressive in the sense that it might feel like you're having a bit of a tantrum or that there's a way in which some kind of emotional repression is finally being untapped. And those are all very sort of interesting sensations. But I think the explanation that I came upon that resonated most clearly with me was in reading and talking with Alexandra Stein about her book Terror, Love and Brainwashing, in which she describes at peak moments of cult induced disorganized attachment, in which you have been in a prolonged state of both being fascinated with and repelled by your caregiver or your guru, you are in love with this person, but you're also terrified of them. They are completely inconstant, but you're bound with them in the same way that you might be bound to, you know, a person in a domestic relationship.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trauma bond.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. The peak sensation of trauma bond can feel like euphoria because at a certain point, something happens neurologically that forces a kind of fawn response or some kind of surrender or collapse. And what I noticed in this second group was that often I would get to a peak point of. And they even called it a crisis, a crisis of light.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting.

[Matthew Remsky]

You would get to a point of contemplating whatever it was the teacher was talking about, or your own mortality, or wondering, asking, you know, what exactly was the difference between you and God? Or some kind of just impossible question that was scrambling all of your cognitive capacity. And that combined with kind of like the social pressure of, who is this teacher? Why do I love them so much? Why do they scare the shit out of me? It caused on a regular basis for me, this feeling of explosive release and catharsis that flooded my body with warmth. And that then when my fellow cult mates could identify that I was going through that, they would say, oh, that's it. And I think that this is where what might be a stress or a trauma response gets re. Narrativized instantly by the group into proof of the efficacy of. Of the spiritual practice. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love how you said that.

[Matthew Remsky]

Then it becomes part of the marketing. Like, everybody wants this. This is what we're going for. And then. And then people will create and intensify these pressurized experiences and practices. In order to accelerate those processes. Because once it happens, you want it to happen again. Because that's when you were real. That's when you felt God really within you. Did you come down back to earth? There was always some sort of talk about, well, you really need to integrate these experiences, but nobody knew what the fuck.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How do you integrate.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, how do you integrate a traumatic experience that you're being told is good?

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Exactly.

[Matthew Remsky]

It doesn't make sense.

[Lola Blanc]

It doesn't mean anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

My auditory hallucinations when I was meditating a lot were out of control.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, out of control. If it can have that effect on your brain, it does not seem even remotely irrational to me that it could also have a physical effect on your body. And those things would combine to feel like an out of, you know, spiritual experience.

[Matthew Remsky]

100%. Well, I actually, I mean, I think that it actually, it's an argument for the materialism of spiritual experience, I think, is that there are such clear intersecting conditions under which this happens, both physically and socially, that, yeah, it's not like, I don't think we know exactly why it happens, but that doesn't mean that it's a mystery. Yeah, I would say that one of the top researchers of this, from Buddhist meditation standpoint is Willoughby Britten. I don't know if you are familiar with her work, but she runs a place called the Cheetah House and she offers seminars, but also some kind of interactive treatment programs for meditators who have had like psychotic breaks during 10 day Vipassana retreats.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

So how did you leave Michael Roach and then start following a new person?

[Matthew Remsky]

Michael Roach went into retreat. He gave me an impossible but also make work that I could understand project. He told me to move to Madison, Wisconsin so that I could take courses with one of the llamas who had been on the academic kind of panel who passed the Dalai Lama during his examinations back in the 1950s. So I spent several months doing that. And there was something about him leaving me realizing that, oh, he's actually in a series of abusive relationships with his inner circle and he has been exploiting my skills for the last several years that kind of just sent me into a spiral. But at this point, I was three years behind in whatever sort of career pursuit I might have taken. I was three years having alienated many of my friends back here in Toronto. I was lost again. And so I cult hopped, which is not that uncommon because in order to leave, I think you really need to have the social and economic landing spot that is gonna make that Work.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right.

[Matthew Remsky]

And so I had one friend back in Vermont. His name is Miles, and he ran this incredible farm retreat center that I used to work on and farm on. I did some construction for him. He was one of my dearest friends, and he had told me I was in Madison, Wisconsin. He had told me that the. The most profound spiritual teaching he'd ever received in his life came through a guy named Charles Anderson. And he was in this weird little place called Endeavor Academy in the Wisconsin Dells. And I was at a payphone, I think, in Madison, and I phoned him up, and I said, who is that again? Who is that guy? And he said, oh, okay. Well, you know, you want to go to Wisconsin Dells, and you want to look for the Cheese Factory restaurant stars, and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, this is wild.

[Matthew Remsky]

And you'll probably find it from there. So the Cheese Factory restaurant is one of the businesses that Endeavor Academy ran. It's a vegetarian kind of diner, 50s style, in the sort of themes that Charles Anderson loved.

[Lola Blanc]

Stealing the valor of Cheesecake Factory, though, I gotta say, a little bit.

[Matthew Remsky]

A little bit. And my waiter that day was a guy who became my best friend and, like, my musical companion. We did a record together. His name was Max. And from there, I was drawn into this other community, which was much, much more charismatic, and. And the focus of it was A Course in Miracles. And, yeah, I feel fortunate within my two experiences that, you know, both of these guys were definitely exploitative. You know, I believe that Michael Roach was in a series of abusive relationships with his students, but we were not in the category of, like, Rajneesh Puram. It's not in the category of, you know, Synanon, where Dietrich is putting out hits on people, or. These are not profoundly paranoid and, you know, militarizing and violent.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. So there's not a Scientology person following you around, like. No, but how did Michael react to you leaving? I mean, was he.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, he couldn't be fucked. He was. He was. He was off. He was in his own retreat. Didn't care with his six women attendance.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, got you.

[Lola Blanc]

If he were a hot girl, maybe

[Megan Elizabeth]

he would have given a little more.

[Matthew Remsky]

He was fine. He was living his best life. And. Yeah, so one of the funniest things about cult hopping is that if you go to a second group, very concerned people from the first group will send you very concerned letters about how you've entered a cult. So I got a bunch of those. That was a hoot.

[Lola Blanc]

My. I've told the story a million times, but I will tell it to you. Now, my mom knew Keith Ranieri pre nexiv. Keith Ranieri, like, proto nexiv when she was preyed upon by this other cult leader. And Keith Ranieri was doing the exact same thing, like telling her she was in a cult and all this stuff. And meanwhile, he'd been like, come to Albany. Join my program. I. So funny that they do that.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, they can tell. They can tell, I think.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, Exactly. And I'm sure a lot of them had very serious misgivings and were worried about you because they thought that they found something real.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't. I'm laughing at these letters that I. That I received. But they were earnest. Yeah, they were earnest.

[Lola Blanc]

And that concludes part one for now. Come back part. No, come back part next week for part two. Come back part two for next week is what I was going to say. Megan, this begs the question now, at the end of episode one, would you join guru number one, Michael Roach's cohort?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think I would.

[Lola Blanc]

I think you would, too. Tell me more.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just really like that he had kind of a curriculum. You know, I love a good curriculum, or like we're building on something. I feel like he really used people's days up in a way that would have made me feel productive again. He has that credential of being a very smart person that would probably intrigue me. And I'm somebody who's very susceptible to his lineage of teaching, his. His sort of message. So, yeah, put me in, coach.

[Lola Blanc]

I actually think this is a rare one that I might join you on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lola Blanc]

Look, because I would fall for the credential, I'd fall for the Harvard thing. As we know, I do appreciate meditation, and I also really like classes. You know, I got that inner need for productivity and feel like I'm achieving, and it would get me with that, especially. Especially because Matthew described Michael Roach as being emotionally incontinent. And I am such a sucker for a man who can express his feelings. I will tell you, I'm sold. Sign me right up. I'm following.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Sounds like we're both in a cult now. So cool. Thank God we weren't there.

[Lola Blanc]

We're going to do it together.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yay.

[Lola Blanc]

Next week, we will be talking more about the next guru that Matthew followed. So stay tuned.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Stay tuned. Rate us 5 stars. If you have the temptation within you. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never, ever trust me.

[Jana Kramer]

Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production,

[Megan Elizabeth]

hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Jihali.

[Lola Blanc]

This is this episode was mixed by

[Megan Elizabeth]

John Bradley, our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMePodcast or on TikTok@TrustMeCultPodcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophia Donner]

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