Parvati Shallow - From Surviving a Cult to Winning Survivor

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Parvati Shallow – From Surviving a Cult to Winning Survivor
Date: February 11, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Parvati Shallow (Survivor winner, memoirist)

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Overview

In this episode, Survivor champion and memoirist Parvati Shallow joins hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth to share her firsthand experience growing up in the Kashi Ashram, a Florida commune led by Joyce Green—known as “Ma.” Parvati discusses the alluring mix of spirituality, manipulation, and control that defined her upbringing, the complex process of leaving the group, and how her childhood shaped her eventual success (and strategies) on reality TV. She also explores recovery, resilience, and what it really takes to break free from indoctrination.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Allure and Mechanics of the Kashi Ashram

• Origins of the Group ([12:55])

  • Parvati’s parents joined amid the 1960s/70s counterculture, seeking spiritual fulfillment and escape from a controlling government and rigid Catholicism.
  • Joyce Green (“Ma”) presented herself as a guru with mystical powers (claiming experiences like stigmata), blending Eastern and Western spiritual motifs.
  • Notably, Ram Dass was involved with Ma before publicly denouncing her, saying he was “bamboozled.” Parvati notes:

    “She was very powerful. She had some kind of spiritual mojo… She dated Ram Dass for a while.” (Parvati, [15:15])

• Ma’s Leadership Style ([18:25] – [23:46])

  • The commune began as an idealistic community but quickly turned controlling and authoritarian. Ma surveilled members, arranged relationships, separated families, and used guilt as leverage.
  • Tactics included sleep deprivation, forced meditation, isolation, and instilling fear through curses and threats.

• Cycles of Leaving and Returning

  • Parvati’s parents left the commune, returned under pressure (and perceived curses), and ultimately escaped for good after years of psychological manipulation and careful planning.

Life as a Child on the Commune

• The Duality of Experience ([23:55] – [26:46])

  • Childhood featured a feral sense of freedom—“running barefoot, swimming in ponds, fire ceremonies”—but underscored by neglect, forced separations, and covert abuse.
  • Parvati reflects on her longing for approval and how Ma’s attention made children feel special, yet manipulated:

    “If the guru turned her light on me as a child, I was special in that moment. And I was always, like, hungry for that…” (Parvati, [25:13])

• Ma’s “Children” ([25:13], [31:08])

  • Some children were taken from their parents (“Ma’s kids”)—essentially through parental manipulation—and lived in neglect within Ma’s chambers.

• Education and Escape ([28:14] – [29:40])

  • Parvati attended makeshift schools in the commune and, later, shifted toward “harm reduction” by gradually moving outside the gates, enabling a safer eventual escape.

Tactics of Control and Leaving

• Manipulation and Guilt ([21:36])

  • Ma appropriated the “mother” archetype and used emotionally manipulative strategies (mirroring narcissistic parents) to guilt and control members.

• Financial Exploitation ([47:01])

  • Members were compelled to surrender possessions and even lie to their families to send money:

    “She had already taken everyone’s money… and then she was asking people to call their parents and say they had cancer so they could get money...” (Parvati, [47:01])

• Physical and Psychological Control ([18:25], [19:12], [37:46])

  • Techniques included all-night meditations using sleep deprivation, violence, and orchestrated scarcity.
  • Megan highlights:

    “All part of the design to keep you busy… when you have two hours to think, you start questioning everything.” ([37:46])

Recovery, Resilience, and Survivor

• Transitioning to ‘Normal’ Life ([39:57])

  • Leaving the commune meant adapting to new social norms, often with no resources or support.
  • Parvati attributes her resilience, strategic skills, and comfort with chaos (“comfortable in discomfort”) directly to her formative years:

    “I could step into chaos and be in a place of power.” (Parvati, [34:36]) “The foundation from which I built my entire life was my childhood and the years from zero to nine in that commune… I absorbed power and strategy and survival.” (Parvati, [39:57])

• How Childhood Informed Survivor Success ([41:51])

  • Parvati draws a direct link between her upbringing and her reality TV achievements:

    “I have this cult leader ability to galvanize people… Survivor and I are a match made in heaven.” ([42:19])

• The Importance of the Recovery Process ([51:16] – [54:13])

  • She describes the difficulty of breaking out of survival mode, and learning to rest and heal:

    “It took me a really long time to even start to believe recovery was a thing… My survival strategy was just to move on, create a new life.” ([51:49])

  • Recovery involves somatic therapy, acupuncture, and learning to value pleasure and connection.

The Nature of Cult Leadership & Manipulation

• Performance of Benevolence vs. Hidden Abuse ([46:30] – [48:10])

  • Ma performed charity work and embraced public benevolence (e.g., AIDS activism) while abusing, exploiting, and neglecting members in private.
  • Parvati underscores the importance of not being fooled by outward good deeds:

    “Somebody doing good deeds… is just not enough of an indicator of whether or not you should trust them… always, they’re always doing something good…” (Lola, [47:38])

• Delusion vs. Malice in Cult Leaders ([50:17])

  • Parvati suggests Ma truly believed in her own rhetoric, caught in personal delusion intensified by drug addiction:

    “I do think she was definitely sucked into her own delusion. I don't think she realized what she was doing was so harmful…” (Parvati, [50:17])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Guru’s Charisma & Manipulation:
  • “She was saying that she needed gold jewelry to kind of tether her to this earthly plane.” – Parvati ([15:34])
• On Children Being Taken:
  • “There were some kids that were called Ma’s kids that were seen as the special ones, but they were just sort of like, deeply neglected and abused… essentially, but the parents gave them over because they were manipulated into doing so.” – Parvati ([25:13])
• On Psychological Aftermath:
  • “Once I left my marriage, I started doing a lot of somatic work… when I had more space internally in my body and felt safe in my body, my thoughts changed.” – Parvati ([37:46])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [12:55]: Parvati describes her parents’ journey into the Kashi Ashram and Ma’s origin story.
• [18:25]: Escalation of Ma’s controlling behaviors; sleep deprivation, surveillance, and arranged relationships.
• [23:55]: Parvati’s experience as a child—freedom, neglect, and spiritual longing.
• [28:32]: Gradual escape—leaving the commune step by step.
• [31:08]: The commingling of children away from parents and neglect in Ma’s chambers.
• [39:57]: Surviving and thriving after leaving; reflections on resilience and strategies developed in childhood.
• [41:51]: Parvati connects childhood survival skills to her tactics and mindset on Survivor.
• [51:16]: Recovery work, the difficulty of escaping survival mode, and embracing healing practices.
• [46:30], [47:01], [50:17]: Cult leaders’ double lives, financial exploitation, and how leaders are themselves deluded.

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Tone & Language

The conversation is frank, empathetic, and often darkly humorous. Parvati is self-aware, insightful, and honest about both the pain and strange “gifts” her upbringing bestowed. The hosts draw parallels to broader cult psychology, offer supportive reflections, and intersperse moments of feminist humor and solidarity.

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Endnote

Parvati expresses her gratitude for the space to focus on her childhood experiences, emphasizing how ongoing reflection and healing remain part of her journey. Lola and Megan highlight the importance of community but caution listeners about the fine line between empowerment and manipulation.

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Recommended for anyone interested in first-person cult experiences, the interplay of trauma and resilience, or understanding the seductive power of charismatic leaders and the human quest for belonging.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Lola Blanche]

Trust me?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Do you trust me? Would I ever lead you astray?

[Parvati Shallow]

Trust me.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This is the truth. The only truth.

[Lola Blanche]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and of course manipulation from two survivors who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanche.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth. Wow.

[Lola Blanche]

Today our guest is Parvati Shallow, reality TV icon who's won Survivor twice and is currently on Traitors and author of new memoir Nice Girls Don't Win. How I burned it all down to claim my power. She's joining us today to talk about her childhood in a commune called the Kashi Ashram, led by a woman named Joyce Green, who made everyone call her Machine. She'll tell us about Ma's history, including her relationship with Ram Dass, who said he had been bamboozled by her, and some of the controlling behaviors that Ma exhibited in the group, including taking children from their parents and making members scam their own families for money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She'll talk about how her parents escaped but ultimately came back to the group, what it was like living on the commune, being wild in nature, and how some of the good and some of the bad of the group helped give her some of her skills she needed to win Survivor later on. Plus how she processed everything that's happened to her. And that's called resilience. And we have an episode on it.

[Lola Blanche]

That's right. No, Parvati's book is really, really great. I connected with so much of it in there. And we'll talk about a little bit of it in this episode. Wish we could talk about it with her on five more episodes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know it's really interesting to see a female culture leader because so many of them that we talk to are men.

[Lola Blanche]

And that's feminism, baby.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep. Equal rights.

[Lola Blanche]

Although, you know, we've talked to more people now who had female cult leaders than I anticipated when we first started the podcast. Like, we're uncovering more and more, I feel. Yeah. And that's feminism, baby.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, that's true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Definitely. Still disproportionate, but no, for sure. More than we expected. For sure. Yeah.

[Lola Blanche]

Before we get into this particular woman cult leader and what Parvati experienced with her, Megan, can you tell me your cultiest thing, please?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, my cultiest thing is a documentary I watched this week on Netflix. It's called House of Secrets. Very dark.

[Lola Blanche]

House of Secrets is not the Armie Hammer one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, that's.

[Lola Blanche]

Isn't that called something similar, maybe?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's called House of Secrets, the Barrari Deaths. And I'd never heard of it before. Um, I went into it very blind thinking, what's this about? And it turns very culty. I won't spoil it, but please, if you're gonna watch it, know, it's like I almost feel like I'm telling people to watch the real life version of the Ring. Like I'm, like, passing on some, like, oh, no, Cursed. Do you know what I mean?

[Lola Blanche]

Because it's so dark and upsetting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So upsetting. But I'm also trying to keep it grounded because these are real people, and I don't want to. Sensational, Eliza. And, like, they deserve, you know, to. The story deserves to be told, so if you want to see it, watch it. I'm gonna contact people from it this week to try to get somebody who knows about the case on the show. I don't want to spoil it, per se, but shall I tell you a little bit about it?

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, tell me a little.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In this city in India, they find 11 members of a family hanging in their house in this very intricate pattern.

[Lola Blanche]

Whoa.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All of their hands are tied, like. And some of them are young children. No, all of their hands are tied behind their back. All of their mouths are taped. There's cloth over their eyes, and nothing is disturbed. They can't figure out, like, it doesn't seem like it was a break in. You know what I mean? It seems. It seems like it was a suicide, but they just can't figure out how 11 people would do that. Then they find this notebook where one of the uncles was communicating with their dead grandfather. So his father.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So he was getting all of his life advice from his father. And this is just completely ruining the end, which is, you know, a murder mystery that if you wanna watch it, you should watch it. So skip this part. But basically, this uncle is like, oh, we have to do a ritual of killing ourselves, and at the very last second, we'll be freed and we'll have amazing karma. Oh, no.

[Lola Blanche]

Oh, no. That's so horrible. Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean, and a lot of really interesting psychologists and stuff in India are on the documentary just talking about, like, how it just really showed. One woman said something so interesting, which was, like, it showed me, what is the difference between my belief and a delusion? And, like, where does faith end and a delusion starts? You know? And so, yeah, I've never seen anything like it. It's heartbreaking, and it's a topic I would love to explore further with somebody who worked on the case or knows more about it.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I have to know more. I'm, like, scared to watch. But I also really want to know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanche]

You know, more about the case.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty intense. Well, no, it's extremely intense. So, yeah, you gotta be ready for that level of horror. But like I said, it's worth knowing how these things happen, you know?

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because basically, you know, the, like, father's authority is so important in India that when this father died, it's like, did it trigger a psychosis in this uncle where, like, he needed to be hearing from his dad? Or like, it brings us back to that age old question of like, did he think he was really talking to his dad or was he just trying to control his family, you know? Anyway, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanche]

Well, to switch tones for a second here, please. So, you know, listeners, longtime listeners will know I am a quite political person. I always have been. And I joined an organization that I love currently. But like any organization, it's full of humans and it's got ups and downs and it depends on which chapter you're in, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I'm a member of dsa, dsala, which is the Democratic Socialist of America, which Zora Mamdani came out of DSA New York. Bernie Sanders is very associated with dsa. And it's the first time I'm like, oh yeah, like, this is how I would join a cult. Because I feel so much better about, like, it. It gives me meaning and purpose. Like, obviously there's been so much in our country that's just awful and I am someone. Like, I really only feel okay when I feel like I'm doing something instead of just hand wringing and doom scrolling. And it's been hard to figure out, like in all my years of la, it's been hard to figure out, like, where do I plug in, where am I useful? How can I help beyond like posting in my story, which does nothing, you know, I mean, it does something, it doesn't do nothing, but it's not great, it's not ideal. You know, you want to like actually be doing work. And so now I'm more involved in this organization that is electing candidates here in LA who share my same values and doing a lot of great work to combat ice and doing a lot of great work for all kinds of issues that I care about. The environment, queer liberation, Palestinian liberation, all of it. So right now I'm like, oh, thank God I have some political community with people who share. Like, we all want to just make the world better and we're trying to figure it out together. And you know, the goal obviously is to create a larger movement of people who want to do this with us and get politicians in office who are not beholden to like billionaire interests. So anyway, I'm like, able to be useful and that's such a great feeling. And this particular organization is democratic. Like, there are elections. It's democratic, so there's not, like, a leader that's, like, dictating everything. So that's why it feels healthy and fine for me, at least right now. But I can just totally see, you know, like, we're such an atomized nation. Like, we feel so lonely and, like, we can't do anything. And it's just, like, such a perfect time for an organization that maybe isn't democratic to swoop in and be like, I have the community and the answers for you, and this is how you're gonna make the world better. You know, it's like, so many cults start with those same ingredients. And I'm like, if there weren't elections, like, I'd be so susceptible right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. No, it's worth noting. I mean, we all are right now because everybody has strong opinion. I mean, hopefully has strong opinions about what's happening in the world right now one way or another. And, yeah, it's a very vulnerable time.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And we're all.

[Lola Blanche]

It's, like, with a lot of division. Division in my life with people I love very much. And so it's. It's just so, like, healing. I hate the word healing. It just, like, feels really nice to be, like, standing, like, doing work next to people who understand, basically, is the thing. And we're, like, you know, able to actually make a difference politically in our city. So, you know, if there's a cult I would join, it'd be a political one, hopefully. This is not one. I don't think it is. I think they're doing really great work. But I can see, you know, I could see the path. Like, I could see how it could happen.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no. Well, I'll keep an eye on you.

[Lola Blanche]

Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know the signs. Let me know, and I'll let you know. Great.

[Lola Blanche]

But listen, I'm aware that it could happen, and that's the first step.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect. You're actually very correct. Yes. Just know. Know your vulnerabilities.

[Lola Blanche]

Exactly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Speaking of vulnerabilities.

[Lola Blanche]

Good. Good segue. Yes. Love it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Shall we talk to Parvati?

[Lola Blanche]

Let's talk to Parvati. Welcome Parvati. Shallow to trust me. Thank you so much, so much for joining us.

[Parvati Shallow]

Thanks for having me.

[Lola Blanche]

When we told people you were coming on, the reactions were so I had multiple people be like, shut up. I love Parvati. People were so excited.

[Parvati Shallow]

So we are.

[Lola Blanche]

We're very excited as well to have you.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, my God, me too. I feel like the conversation topics that you guys discuss Is really my wheelhouse.

[Lola Blanche]

Amazing. Yeah. Well, we both just finished your book and there's so much to talk about. Um, but first, obviously, this is a cult podcast. Your parents were in a cult when you were a child. And can you just tell us a little bit about how they first joined the. Is it the Kashi ashram?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, I did write about this in my book. And both my parents, they were sort of the moment in time when Indian gurus were here bringing meditation and yoga to the West. So a lot of people in the United States were disillusioned with the government structure. It was the Vietnam War. Catholicism was kind of the predominant religion, I would say. And I think it was just very controlling. And a lot of people were looking for some kind of way to claim their freedom and serve in a spiritual way and be a part of the solution. Make love, not war. And my parents both met this. I mean, she was a self proclaimed guru. She was not from India. Her name was Joyce Green. She was born in Brooklyn. Joyce, and good old Joyce. She was like a married mom, Jewish mom from Brooklyn, and then went to this weight loss clinic after she'd had her babies to lose some weight, and she learned breath work there. And then that sort of opened up these powers for her. And she claimed to have had the stigmata, even though no one else witnessed this except for her best friend. Best friend.

[Lola Blanche]

It's not your bestie. She won't vouch for your stigmata.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, I need a T shirt that says that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, yeah, her best friend was like, yep, she really was having this stigma. Great movie, by the way. Stigmata, but like bleeding from the. You know, from the hands and all the things that Jesus experienced, which is.

[Lola Blanche]

Interesting because she's raised Jewish. And then she's saying, oh, I'm doing this Jesus thing. But then she's doing this Eastern religion. Like she's really mishmashing it all up here.

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, they do say that Jesus went and trained with the yogis, so he kind of considered a mystic in that way and learned that sort of meditation technology. But I mean, I don't. Who's to say? Yeah, this woman also said. I mean, she was very charismatic. She was very powerful. She had some kind of spiritual mojo because she was having meetings with. I mean, she dated Rom Dass for a while.

[Lola Blanche]

I love that Lore is the real deal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, not only did she date him, he was like a devotee. And then he was like, wait, you're a fraud?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanche]

And literally wrote an article about it, which I loved that detail called in your book called Egg on My Beard saying that he'd been duped by this woman.

[Parvati Shallow]

Right? Because she was saying that she needed gold jewelry to kind of tether her to this earthly plane.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh shit, why didn't I think of that? Can you, can you kind of tell us what this woman looked like in.

[Parvati Shallow]

The height of her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This white woman?

[Parvati Shallow]

Shall I say very tan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, very tan.

[Parvati Shallow]

Very tan could pass for Indian. Okay. Has long dark hair, always wore the bindi dripping and gold. Always dripping in gold. Kind of wore saris, the like Indian kind of clothing. She dressed the part.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Lola Blanche]

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[Parvati Shallow]

I was born there and then my parents fled the commune and then they ended up going back, which, you know, it takes people many times to leave an abusive situation. And so they went back because it was all they knew and sort of the only community they had. And things were okay for a while. And then the rampage occurred, which was sort of. It was like the hallmarks of that time were the guru was getting more aggressive, like physically violent, and people would be in meditation and she would have these all night meditations. So it was like she was using sleep deprivation. If anyone nodded off, she would kick them or slap them to wake them up.

[Lola Blanche]

My God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And she was saying that this time, like if you couldn't handle it, you were weak. So she was like using people's humanity against them and saying she was clearing their karma at an accelerated rate.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that's one of the things I was gonna say. I mean, it sounds like one of the reasons your parents returned is because it seemed as though she'd put a curse on them. So she's like promising to clear your karma, also saying, I can put a curse on you. And like if bad things were happening when. Which they were when, when your family left, it kind of makes it easy to say, oh, like she's right, you know, very bad timing on that front.

[Lola Blanche]

Why did they leave initially?

[Parvati Shallow]

Again, they left because they recognized that they couldn't have freedom. It wasn't really what they'd been sold it. They were sold this community of like minded spiritual seekers that were going to support one another and create this sort of utopian ideal neighborhood. And it turned into like the guru was surveilling people's phone calls, she was arranging marriages. She. If people were dating without her approval, she would have them broken up. And like one, the man would have to turn into a celibate monk. And then the woman would be like assigned a job somewhere else on the commune. She was just, it was very like whiplashy, I think for them where they realized like, oh no, we gotta get outta here. There might have been a specific moment, but I'm not remembering right now. I mean, I was told all these stories, right. Cause I was too young.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanche]

And then they do leave. And then as Megan was saying, it seems like Maybe the curse is real. What's your understanding of what brought them back? Because that's always just something that's so interesting to me. Obviously we do, like you said, see that in abusive relationships, a lot of the people we talk to, I feel like once they leave, they're out. And maybe part of that is because, you know, the cult members will disconnect and you'll be considered someone who's like, bad and that shouldn't be spoken to after or because you physically have to leave. So I feel like I don't think we've had on as many guests who like kept going back necessarily. It's almost like once you've sever ties with the cult, you've sever ties with the cult. So I find those stories really interesting. And when people do return after they have first made that decision, just curious if you knew more about their reasoning.

[Parvati Shallow]

You know what? I think it was the woman, the guru, her name was Ma. This is the name she gave herself. She co opted like she gave herself the title of mother of the community. So it really was this sort of like, it reminds me of narcissistic mothers or that kind of relationship where they will use guilt or emotionally manipulate their children or say they're bad or say they're like they owe their mom something. And I think for my parents, the guilt was such a conditioned response because they grew up Catholic where there's so much guilt involved in being a Catholic. And it's really is what manipulates people's behavior is through guilt. So I think there was some of that playing a part. It was like the distorted mother where they just. They wanted. I think everyone in the community wanted the mother to approve of them, to love them, protect them, guide them, care for them. And they got glimpses of. It was like little bits of that kind of love. Sort of like how narcissists will like dangle the carrot and they just keep you chasing this like perceived goal that's just far enough off in the distance. And they move the goalpost and they move it again and you're like, oh, I can never get there. It makes you freaking crazy. So I think it was some of that where it was like they also didn't have enough of their own structure, safety, community. Outside of that, like my mom, they didn't have anywhere to go. They moved back in with my mom's parents and there was like her sister, my mom's sister was escaping an abusive marriage and her kids were there. And it was just chaos everywhere. And they were like Nobody understands us. And I think there was some peace living in this commune because it was so close to nature. Like, we ran around barefoot, was very sort of like, survivor environmentally. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, well, no wonder I recreated this five times in my life.

[Lola Blanche]

Tell us more. I think that's a good way to transition us into talking about what you experienced before your family left the cult. What was that like?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, for me, I felt like there was freedom as a child because I was running around with a group. I had, like, a girl gang that I ran with, and we were just. We wore whatever we wanted to wear. It felt like we were feral children, sort of like swimming in a pond, running around barefoot in the woods, going to these fire ceremonies at night where all my friends would be there, all the adults would be there, everyone's chanting and singing. It was all this kind of, like, ecstatic communion with nature. And this mysticism, this magic existed there where it felt like something really special was happening. And if the guru turned her light on me as a child, I was special in that moment. And I was always, like, hungry for that as a kid, because it was strange. Like, I had kind of three primary attachment figures. I had the guru, which all the adults and everyone. All the kids were devoted to, and she was taking people babies and having them live sort of in close proximity to her. There were some kids that were called Ma's kids that were seen as the special ones, but they were just sort of like, deeply neglected and abused and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, kidnapped from their parents, essentially.

[Parvati Shallow]

Essentially. But, like, the parents gave them over sort of, like. Because they were manipulated into doing so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And, yeah, so there was this, like, beautiful. It's been. I've been really working on untangling it for really. I mean, ever since I was. Started writing my book, I've been working on untangling this because I hadn't looked back at my childhood at all until I filed for divorce and moved out and, like, got out of my marriage. And then I had the, like, space and time to sit and be like, how did I get here? How did I make this in my life? And I think it was because I had this experience as a child of this beautiful, ecstatic, kind of, like, peak experiences over and over again. And then, like, dry spell, like, kind of nothing. And also there was a shadow side, of course, that was, like, not really spoken about in the commune. It was like this beautiful on the surface, looks perfect on the surface, is really, like, everything you could ever want. And Dre dream of gives you all of these beautiful connections. And then underneath it, it's like there's lying, there's course of control, there's abuse, there's all this, like, power over domination curses. Like so much shadow in there that I just. It was never articulated to me in a way that I was like, oh, okay. That's what was happening. So I had to uncover that for myself later in life.

[Lola Blanche]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lots of cognitive dissonance there.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, my God. So much I can imagine.

[Lola Blanche]

Like the running freely through the woods with your girlfriend's thing. Sounds like a fucking dream.

[Parvati Shallow]

I know.

[Lola Blanche]

Like, of course you'd have these, like, conflicting ideas about this because, like, what magical memories those must have been. Like, I grew up on a farm with woods, 80 acres of land. And my memories of being in the woods are like the most precious special thing ever. And if that was combined with these weird, like, guru worship, guru taking the children, stuff like that, what a contradiction of feelings that must be.

[Parvati Shallow]

It was such a distortion of the mother archetype. And she, the guru used. She said she was teaching through Kali, which is a goddess in Hinduism who's sort of like the destroyer of death. So she's one of the dark goddesses and she teaches through like straight struggle and suffering and pain and death, like sort of in the underworld. But then she's claiming to be this like benevolent mother and doing these really horrific things. So it was like, what. What is actually happening? And as a kid, everything is just normal because it's the water that you swim in. You don't really like. I didn't. I had no idea.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And yeah, I know that you end up going, you guys end up leaving. But when you're on the commune, what was the schooling like?

[Parvati Shallow]

There was a school in the community that was like grade school. So I went there for kindergarten. There was a daycare. My mom worked in the daycare because everyone just worked for free.

[Lola Blanche]

Of course, as they do, as they.

[Parvati Shallow]

Do in these groups, it's like, support the community, Give us all your money and your time and your indentured servitude. And then when I turned, when I was in started second grade, we had moved across the street because my parents were starting to distance themselves. I think they needed an escape plan that involved more sort of slower structured stability where they were like, okay, we're going to slowly separate, so it's not such a harsh cut. And in that way they were able to leave for good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Parvati Shallow]

But we first. It was like an intermediary step, sort of like harm reduction, I think about like heroin Addicts who go on whatever.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The Suboxone.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yes, yes, exactly. It's like, okay, this is like we're going to be dipping our toe in and out. So we lived across the street in our own house outside of the gates of the commune. But we would go back for dinners, like group dinners and the fire ceremonies and any kind of like, event that was going on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So how did the children that stayed there, like, how did they learn to do all. I'm. I'm always so fascinated. Like, how did they learn to read? How did they learn math? How did they.

[Lola Blanche]

Was it traditional classes?

[Parvati Shallow]

It's like homeschool, I guess. Yeah, it was. I don't remember what the classes were. The only thing I remember is we took a field trip to an art museum. And I remember the African art exhibits. That's all I remember from school. And then the Land Before Time story that I told in my book.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Will you refresh us with us?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. So we took a field trip to the theater to go see Land Before Time, as we all know and love this movie.

[Lola Blanche]

Love Land Before Time. Are you kidding me, Edie?

[Parvati Shallow]

They're so cute. So we're in there and then all of a sudden there's like men dressed in black kind of silently moving through the theater. And then they leave. And then the teachers are like, we're leaving. So this is mid movie and we all are forced to get up and leave in the middle of the movie. And I'm like, what happened? No one will tell us. We get back on the bus and go, but there's a kid missing. And it was this girl named Ganga whose parents had organized a sting operation to get her back from the guru because the guru wouldn't return their child.

[Lola Blanche]

This bitch was taking people's babies. Like, that's so crazy. And like, was she taking care of them or like, was she just like mine and like, they're just living in the house and no one's watching. Like, what was. How did that work?

[Parvati Shallow]

I mean, I don't really know all the specifics, but I do know that they were living in like, sort of her chambers, which they had like their own rooms. And I think it was just like kids rooming with kids. And so There were like 6 year olds and 13 year olds and like, who knows what was going on in there? Wow. I mean, I know some of the things that were going on, but. And it wasn't good.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[Parvati Shallow]

But not my story to tell.

[Lola Blanche]

Right, Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

One of the things that struck me was just how y' all were living when you were on the compound. Like it was like closets would be transformed into bedrooms and just so many people in one area. Like it's kind of hard to even imagine what that looked like.

[Parvati Shallow]

It's like I lived in a sorority house when I was in college.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And we had three girls in one bedroom and it's just a shit show. Yeah, but you were used to it. You were like, I used to live.

[Megan Elizabeth]

With three people in a closet. Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh my God. And then I go on Survivor and I'm like, oh yeah, like sleeping in the dirt. Fine. Yeah. Foreign.

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[Lola Blanche]

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[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, it sounds like you were very comfortable. Comfortable in discomfort from a very young age, and that kind of became normal to you to sort of live in this chaos, truly.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. Like, I could step into chaos and be in a place of power.

[Lola Blanche]

Interesting. Also foreshadowing, I want to shout out what your parents did when you left, because one problem that so many people run into when they do attempt to leave these groups is if they do it too quickly, they're not going to have the infrastructure when they leave. They're not going to have the. The job or the support system or it's gonna be too much all at once. And making that plan and being really careful and measured about it and making sure you have somewhere to go and somewhere to land is so important. And it sounds like that's probably why they were successful in their second attempt. So, yeah, good on them.

[Parvati Shallow]

And it took a really long time. I was born there, they left, they came back. And then when I was nine, we left for good. So it was like nine years of them working on finding enough support and then enough assistance to sort of change the way that they were thinking. Because the guru had such mind control over people, and they. She really hooked into their fear of. They were just terrified. She. If people left, she would have, like, a goon squad go and terrorize them. Like Scientology? How you see people do that? Yeah, she would have people, like, yeah, doing crazy stuff to scare people. My dad met these people at. He worked outside of the commune. A lot of people did, and they worked outside the commune. They would make money, and then the guru would be like, okay, pay me the money that you made. So he worked in a high school, and there was a teacher there, or two teachers, I think, that, like, heard his story and were like, no, you need to, like, get some real support. So they helped him with some psychotherapy and, yeah, like, mental health support to get him out of this magical thinking and back into a right frame of mind.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. And that's what it feels like. There was this trigger switched. You got. Y' all moved to Atlanta, and there was, like, some tornadoes and hailstorms and all this scary thing and scary things. And, like, the instinct is to be like, we're cursed or whatever. And then I was just like, no, we're going to survive this. And there was kind of the switch from magical thinking and the skurus world to like, let's dig in and get through it.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, it was a switch to self sovereignty from being under a spell.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanche]

There's a theme kind of occurring throughout your book where, you know, talking about giving yourself the space to actually really think about what you've been experiencing. And I, you know, we see over and over again people, one of the big reasons that they don't leave for so long is because they don't have the time and the space. They're not allowed the time and the space to pause and think critically about what they're experiencing and what contradictions are that the leader is telling them versus what they're doing. And you know, it's like when you do start to venture into the outside world and do some things for yourself and take a little bit of time to actually consider what's going on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All part of the design. All part of the design to keep you busy all the time. And when we spoke to that Sarah Lawrence kid, he had like two hours by himself and he deconstructed. I know. It's like really interesting how that works well.

[Parvati Shallow]

And it's like this corporeal intensity, right. It's like she's using sleep deprivation. People are working constantly to keep the machinery going. I mean, it's sort of. Everyone kind of had to learn how to dissociate. Everyone was existing in fight or flight in that sympathetic nervous system. And that's addictive and it's self reinforcing. That those chemicals that we have when we go into the sympathetic nervous system is like, okay, you're in survival mode. We're going to keep you here because it's the only way you can survive. So you're in that scarcity mode of operating in your body. And then I think once we left the commune, my parents stayed in that mode of operating because they had to establish like a whole new life for their kids without any friends or family or any money. So they were working multiple jobs. And then my sister and I were sort of on our own to figure out how to assimilate into society where there's like clothes and music and shoes and we're like, what? Yeah, it's wild, but like doing the body practices for myself. Once I left my marriage, I started doing a lot of somatic work to bring me into a place of recovery in my body, which created capacity in my nervous system. And then when I Had more space internally in my body and felt safe in my body. My thoughts changed. It was just this sort of, like, cause and effect of creating the safety inside my body that's so important.

[Lola Blanche]

It's so important, and I suck at doing it. There's so much. There's so much in your book where you're like, I'm go, go, go, go. I'm like, you know, achieve more, accomplish more, do more. And I'm like, that's me. I relate to this very much. Okay, your parents leave, then you. You are sort of hit with this, like, normal life world. What is that transition like? And how do you think the cult experiences shaped who you became?

[Parvati Shallow]

I mean, they're completely. The foundation from which I built my entire life was my childhood and the years from zero to nine in that commune. I just. I, like, absorbed power and strategy and survival and how to stay safe and how to maneuver in any situation. I knew I could do that from how I grew up because everyone on the commune had a different strategy to survive. And I think I just inherited it by being around it and then moving into. And I think also I'm like, I'm a very resilient person, and I. I lead with courage, and I love adventure. I'm just like, that's my style. I've done. I'm a seven on the Enneagram. I've done all the tests. I'm like, you know, I'm like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm the introspective, whiny one who's like, I'm different. Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

You can't fight who you are. Yeah. So just sort of like, I just. I found my way. I. I know I always will. There's something in me that. It, like, it holds the light even in the darkest places, in the darkest situations. I think that's why I was able to do so well on Survivor in a container, like a game that's based on killer, be killed, betrayal, manipulation, lying. Like, I have a great time out there, you know? Oh, I love that I was gonna ask you.

[Lola Blanche]

Cause, like, sometimes, you know, we'll talk to people who work on reality shows or whatever. Sometimes we'll hear from people who are on them. And, like, obviously, completely depending on the show and the context, like, a lot of people will be like, oh, it was totally cult, that experience. But it seems like you really loved your Survivor experiences and you viewed these. Them as these, like, great challenges. Like, what is your take on that?

[Parvati Shallow]

I didn't know what I was getting into when I first said yes to Go play And I got a. A harsh education my first season. And then I was like, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna win this game. Like, I'm going to. This is going to be my game. And I just decided to do it. I don't have any desire to control people's lives. Like that would bring me no joy and sounds like far too much work.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

But I do have so. A lot. I have this like cult leader ability to galvanize people and like bring them into my sphere and, and have them do what I want them to do. And we work together. So there was something about Survivor where I was like, oh, we are match made in heaven. Like we were destined to connect in this life. I think I was kind of born into it. And.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean, you're out at the campfire, like sitting around the thing just like when you were a kid. It's. It's very interesting how it copied itself into a different version.

[Parvati Shallow]

Like carbon copied. When I look at images side by side, it's wild.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So interesting.

[Lola Blanche]

Oh, my God. Yeah. When you were a kid, did Ma. Do you call her Ma? What do you call her now?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, Ma.

[Lola Blanche]

Okay. It's so weird. She doesn't deserve that. The mother title. I know, but did she have like specific things she was telling people they needed to accomplish spiritually that, like, did she have those moving goalposts and if.

[Parvati Shallow]

So, what were they? Um, yeah, I think so. Everyone, like people wanted to be. People just want to be chosen. They wanted to be close to her. She knew how to use people's desire to be chosen to manipulate them. And this desire to feel special. Oh, she really exploited that. And I think she knew exactly what people wanted to achieve and excel at. And then she would give them like the thing. Like there was a guy who, I mean, there was. There was people who she would turn into. They, she called them sannyasins. And that was just like a celibate monk. So she was like, okay, you're gonna do this until I say stop, basically. Which means you're celibate. You shave your head, you're pure. She used the principles of brahmacharya. Like in Hinduism there's. I've studied yoga, so there's like these different things to abstain from. There's these different principles and qualities to adhere to. It's like non harming. And brahmacharya is like essentially has been distilled into celibacy, which I don't think that really was the intent. I think the intent was more like Communion with the divine rather than getting, like, caught up in sort of the material world. But she made it into, like, you're celibate. Like, you can't masturbate. You can't hook up with anyone. You certainly can't date. And people would do it. And she promised them whatever rewards, spiritual rewards, like powers, enlightenment. Mostly she was going for. People were going for enlightenment. They wanted to achieve nirvana.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Was she hooking up with people?

[Parvati Shallow]

Honestly, I have no idea. I know she dated. She dated the. The, like, karate teacher who was, like, a dojo master. And that's why, like, they started this business that was like, karate gear. It was like foam pads for.

[Lola Blanche]

Really.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's a new. We've never heard of that one. Or usually it's food. This is interesting.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think they probably did food, too, but I know they definitely did it. It was called Macho. And we would go into the plant. It was like a rubber plant, where they would, like, coat these foam pads with rubber paint. And it's smelled like, so disgusting latex paint. Yeah. So that was the business. And my parents were trained in Taekwondo, and a lot of people were trained in Taekwondo. And they were also eating a vegetarian diet because that's the sort of the Indian yogic way. And so she would have. Because she's dating the dojo guy, they would go and do these tournaments all over Florida, and they were passing out because they didn't have enough nutrition.

[Lola Blanche]

Oh, my God.

[Parvati Shallow]

So she was like, okay, okay, we can eat fish.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We can eat fish so we don't pass out while we're fighting.

[Lola Blanche]

Cult leader Doing Taekwondo tournaments is such an incredible visual.

[Parvati Shallow]

It's so good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know she's a really intriguing. I mean, you want to lose weight, you start doing breath work, you end up in Florida. That's an intriguing arc.

[Parvati Shallow]

It's quite a trajectory. And of course, she did a lot of, like, charity work as well. Like, she worked with the AIDS epidemic in a significant way and gave a lot to support that cause. So we see that always as they offset the darkness with, like, this kind of benevolence. But you're like, where does that actually come from?

[Lola Blanche]

Meanwhile, I think you wrote. Correct me if I am getting this detail wrong, but I think you wrote that early on, she was having people call their family members to essentially try to scam them into giving their money to her.

[Parvati Shallow]

Okay, thank you. You're my. You reminded me that's why my parents left the first time when I was a baby, because she had already taken everyone's money. Everything they had. Like, she took my dad's precious guitar and like sold it or whatever.

[Lola Blanche]

Damn.

[Parvati Shallow]

I know people were giving her their like prized heartfelt possessions for whatever she used them for. And then she was asking people to call their parents and say they had cancer so they could get money from their parents. And my parents were like, that's so sad. That's the line. And they were like, we're not gonna do that. And they fled. And the middle of the night.

[Lola Blanche]

Damn. Somebody doing good deeds or, you know, being charitable in one area is just like not enough of an indicator of whether or not you should trust them. Because so often, I mean, always, they're always doing something good or like providing something helpful to the world or they wouldn't get followers in the first place.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It's just like priming you to trust them more. To trust.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yes. And it's like it's their public facing Persona of like this benevolent, generous mother who's caretaking the sick. Sort of like Mother Teresa style.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And then there's photo op for all of that. And that's what the world sees. But behind closed doors, and we hear about this all the time in domestic situations of abuse and control inside the house. But then you see the, the partner, whatever, going out into the world and being like the best dad at the PTA or the mom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, there's so many parallels. You, you wrote in the book, once her devotees were locked in, MA began behaving more erratically. And I think that that's just so true of most cults. Most abusive relationships. Like as soon as you are locked in, it all switches.

[Parvati Shallow]

As soon as you're married and pregnant, babe, that's when they get you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's when they get you.

[Lola Blanche]

I imagine myself in that scenario as the cult leader and I'm like, wouldn't that be the moment where you'd be like, cool, got the, you know, got my followers. Let's just chill now. But instead they lose their fucking minds.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

Like you're not mentally ill. That's the problem.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's. And it's true. Because if they want mentally ill, it could just be fun.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it could just be like a compound where people ran around and believed in something bigger than themselves. But it's like these leaders are always going to make it horrible.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think it starts with such a lack of love internally. It's like the hungry ghost. Like Gabor Mate talks about the land of the hungry ghost. It's like this pit of hell where there's a hungry ghost. And you keep pouring in and pouring in and there's, it's just, there's a, there's a hole in them or something. They can't really fill up with anything. Love, enough material goods, nothing is going to be enough for them. So they just like, once they get more power, they just want more and.

[Lola Blanche]

More and more and they want to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hurt people and they want to like get you sicker.

[Lola Blanche]

I feel like sometimes they really. And I'd be curious if you have any strong opinions on where she is on the spectrum, but as we talk about a lot, like I think sometimes they think they are being good to people. Yeah, it's. And it's so hard to know which one it is.

[Parvati Shallow]

I do think she was definitely sucked into her own delusion. I don't think she realized what she was doing was so harmful. I really don't think she had that capacity for awareness and that kind of conscious understanding of what she was doing. But she had like a drug addiction problem and I think she just had that, that delusion that some people just get caught in and then the whole world around them becomes the delusion and then it just reinforces that person's fantasy about who they are and what they're, what they're doing and they think they're, they think they're good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were her kids and the group.

[Parvati Shallow]

I actually don't know. I know that she had a daughter, she had a son. The daughter had some, like, there's some articles about the daughter online where the daughter sued because she was married off at 13 years old to some older man by her mother.

[Lola Blanche]

Damn.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh my God. Wow.

[Lola Blanche]

These dynamics are being modeled for you at this young age. And it sounds like you learned these skills that were helpful for you on Survivor. But also you write in your book about how you were entering these really, really high intensity situations, like for so many years and kind of not stopping and then recovering would be so difficult. Cause all you knew was to keep going. You touched on it earlier. But tell us more about the process of learning how to recover from these high intensity situations. So you're not in fight or flight all the time.

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, it took me a really long time to even start to believe recovery was a thing. Like I lift weights now and my weightlifting instructors are like, you need to sleep, you need to take Epsom salt baths. You need to have your nutrition. And I'm like, what? Because I would just push myself on empty and accomplish these pretty heroic feats. So I was like, oh, my body doesn't need that at all. Once I made a very big mess of my life, I was like, okay, okay, okay. Like, let's don't. And also, let's, like, let's take a look at what this is. But really, it was this. I didn't want to, like, some, like, the pain in my present moment felt more bearable and more acceptable than visiting the pain of my past. So I think I just stayed in this cycle of survival mode because it kept me only, like, in this sort of surface level pain that was just like, oh, I could handle it. Like, if I'm doing an endurance challenge on Survivor and holding my arm up for six hours, I'm not thinking about how I was totally exploited as a child. And, you know, my friends and family were really. Were used and abused. So it's just. It was too hard to look at that. And also, my family, like, we didn't open up the conversation. Like, we was just. We just moved on. And that was the survival strategy for us that just helped us create a new life.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

So then, now, at this point in my life, I'm like, oh, I. I want to create something very different in my present and in my future than what I created in the past. I want to have a life that's really rich, really abundant, really juicy, loving, fun. Like, feels good. I want a life that feels really good. I want to be connected, pleasure and sensuality, and I have to be in my body and enjoy being in my body to have that. So I've started incorporating a ton of recovery. Like, I do acupuncture. I do Rolfing. I go to somatic therapy. I'll take naps during the day. I do yoga nidra, which is like a very gentle form of deep relaxation, progressive relaxation, where you just lay down and, like, go into this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I can do that.

[Parvati Shallow]

So you would love. I'm gonna send you a link after this.

[Lola Blanche]

You sound like me. Like, so I had a period, which I talked about endlessly on this podcast, where I was, like, in hardcore OCD and, like, just recurring severe anxiety. And I did so much mental health shit in such a short period of time where I was like, I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna get the most better anyone's ever gotten. Even when it came to my recovery, I was like, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go, oh, no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm gonna fix my brain more than anyone's ever fixed a brain.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, it's hard habit to break the intensity. What are you, a Scorpio moon?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm a Scorpio, Moon.

[Lola Blanche]

I'm a Sagittarius. Everything. I don't know what it means. I don't do astrology. Well, your book is called Nice Girls Don't How I burned it all down to claim my power. And I will say, like, beyond the cult stuff, there's so much in this book that I connected with. Just, like, as a woman, and I was like, I feel this. I feel this. I feel this. Even down to brother overdosing. Like, there's just so much in there that I really connected with. So thank you for writing it, and thank you for sharing.

[Parvati Shallow]

Aw, thank you. I haven't had a conversation that's been so focused on my childhood, and it's so interesting because this is the work that I'm doing right now is to go into those memories and, like, heal that part of my life, because I haven't really touched on it. So it was perfect timing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yay.

[Lola Blanche]

And there we will leave it with Parvati. I'm so glad she came on. Megan, it's the time of the day where I ask you if you think you would join Maaz Ashram. Ashram. How do you say it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It doesn't even matter. I feel like we've just been mispronouncing so many Indian terms this podcast that it.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like, it doesn't matter how I say it, because it's gonna be wrong. It's okay.

[Lola Blanche]

The Internet says it's. Or, like, dictionaries say it's ashram, but I feel like nobody pronounces it that way, so I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, my cat just screamed at the top of her lungs, so we're definitely saying something wrong and we apologize. And indeed, indeed. Would I join. Yeah, I probably would. It has all the components that I am susceptible to, such as a pretty piece of land. It sounds like they were all doing, like, art and drugs and, you know, just, like, the initial recipe of something that I would think would be healthy. I can see how quickly I would get sucked in, and then I would be very confused when it started becoming abusive and horrible and would probably go through the exact same story arc as her parents.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, I see this for you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I do too.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, not for me. No, not for me. When I look at Ma, I. I. You know, some cult leaders, I look at their photos, and I'm like, yeah, I could see it when I look at her. I'm like, I feel like I would be repulsed by the way that this woman styles herself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was the 70s Lola.

[Lola Blanche]

I know, I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I do think it's interesting that Ram Dass did that, like, hit piece on her of like, she sucks, but it was already too late. That's interesting to me. Like, I don't know.

[Lola Blanche]

Yeah, it doesn't matter. It, like, doesn't matter what comes out about. I mean, we see so many examples of this in modern politics. It does not matter what comes out about someone. To most people who have, once they follow them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, exactly.

[Lola Blanche]

Because their allegiance is to the leader. It's like we talk about this all the time, but like, yeah, we connect to the person and so whatever choice they make must be the right choice. Yeah. Which is not true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, thank you so much for listening to another week of Trust Me. We appreciate you. Please rate us 5 stars, buy some [e-mail] and as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever Trust Me. Bye.

[Lola Blanche]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanche]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanche]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanche]

You can find us on Instagram USME podcast or on TikTok talk at Trust Me Cult Podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanche]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Movie Trailer Announcer]

30 years ago, Scream changed horror forever. Now it's all led to this. In Scream 7, Sidney Prescott thought she'd finally escaped the nightmare of Ghostface, raising her family in a quiet town far away from the horrors of Woodsboro. She was wrong. And this time, the target isn't just her. It's her teenage daughter, Tatum, who's the same age Sidney was when the terror began. Neve Campbell returns in her iconic final girl role as Sidney Prescott. Facing the most brutal and psychological Ghostface yet, joined by franchise favorites Courtney Cox, Jasmine Savoy Brown and Mason Gooding alongside terrifying new blood including Isabel May, McKenny Grace, Asa Gurman and more. Directed by franchise creator Kevin Williamson in his directorial debut, Scream 7 is packed with edge of your seat scares and shocks for everyone, with references and callbacks for screen fans everywhere. Ghostface is the terrifying horror icon alongside Freddy Jason and Michael Myers. And after 30 years years, the mask still means one no one is safe. See Scream 7 in theaters February 27, because screams are always better when you hear them together.

[Lola Blanche]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanche]

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