REWIND: Dianne Lake - The Manson Family, Part 1: Meeting Charlie

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation Episode: REWIND: Dianne Lake - The Manson Family, Part 1: Meeting Charlie
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth
Guests: Diane Lake and Deborah Herman

---

Introduction

In this compelling two-part episode of Trust Me, hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth delve deep into the harrowing experiences of Diane Lake, the youngest member of the notorious Manson Family. Accompanied by Deborah Herman, co-author of Diane's memoir, the episode offers an unfiltered look into Diane's journey from a tumultuous childhood to her involvement with Charles Manson.

Guests Introduced

• Diane Lake (Snake): The youngest member of the Manson Family who became a key witness in the trial that convicted Charles Manson.
• Deborah Herman: Co-author of Diane's memoir, Member of the Manson Family: My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside His Cult, and the Darkness That Ended the '60s.

Diane Lake's Early Life and Entry into the Manson Family

Background and Family Dynamics ([13:16] - [17:58]): Diane recounts her upbringing in Minnesota, moving to Los Angeles as her parents embraced the counterculture movement. Her father, an artist obsessed with the California lifestyle, introduced Diane and her siblings to LSD and alternative ideologies. Diane recalls her first LSD experience at age 14 with her friends, which set the stage for her susceptibility to groupthink and influence.

Dropping Out and Communal Living ([16:00] - [20:46]): The Lake family adopted a "drop out" lifestyle, relinquishing worldly possessions to live off the land, aligning with the anti-establishment sentiments of the 1960s. Diane describes communal living situations, including time spent at the Hog Farm commune led by Hugh Romney (later known as Wavy Gravy). However, Diane's independent spirit led to conflicts, resulting in her being sidelined within the community.

First Encounter with Charles Manson ([34:14] - [35:54])

Meeting Charlie ([34:14] - [35:54]): At age 14, Diane was introduced to Charles Manson and his girlfriend, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, in Topanga Canyon. Diane describes Charlie as "fun" and "playful," not initially appearing as an imposing cult leader. His initial interactions involved singing circles and creating a semblance of a welcoming community, which masked his manipulative intentions.

"He was like a smart person. I've never lied to you." – Lola Blanc [02:20]

Life Within the Manson Family

Daily Life and Practices ([48:41] - [50:32]): Diane details the regimented yet deceptive daily routines within the Manson Family, including communal cooking, cleaning, and nightly singing circles where Charlie imparted his philosophies. The use of LSD was frequent, creating an altered state of consciousness that made members more pliable to Charlie's influence.

Psychological Manipulation ([37:11] - [45:19]): Deborah Herman explains how Charlie employed tactics akin to those used by pimps to control and manipulate the women, fostering dependence and eroding personal boundaries. Charlie's "love bombing" made each member feel uniquely valued, further deepening their loyalty.

"He really wanted the girls to make beautiful children repopulate the world after the apocalypse." – Diane Lake [50:31]

Charlie's Descent into Madness and the Role of LSD

Mental Instability and Drug Use ([45:19] - [52:37]): The discussion highlights how Charlie's heavy use of LSD contributed to his increasingly erratic and delusional behavior. A pivotal moment was his messianic LSD trip where he believed he experienced the crucifixion, further alienating his followers and leading to his fixation on apocalyptic visions.

"He had a very special lover." – Diane Lake [38:45]

Group Dynamics and Power Structures

Isolation and Control ([56:12] - [58:07]): Herman emphasizes the importance of isolation in cult dynamics, where external information is limited, reinforcing the leader's narrative. This isolation fosters a shared reality among members, making it difficult for them to perceive manipulation.

"Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are a cult leader, but the progression of adulation inevitably leads to power over others." – Deborah Herman [56:12]

Reflections and Psychological Aftermath

Emancipation and Vulnerability ([17:58] - [25:37]): Diane reflects on how her parents' attempt to live a non-materialistic, anti-establishment lifestyle left her vulnerable. Her emancipation as a minor and lack of stable support systems made her an easy target for Charlie's manipulative tactics.

"You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something." – Diane Lake [56:57]

Awareness and Recovery ([29:29] - [37:36]): Post-book publication, Diane gains a deeper understanding of her own victimization and the psychological manipulation she endured. Herman discusses the importance of recognizing brainwashing and the profound impact it has on survivors' ability to reclaim their narratives.

Conclusion

The first part of this two-part episode paints a vivid picture of Diane Lake's descent into the Manson Family, illustrating the intricate web of psychological manipulation, substance abuse, and charismatic leadership that facilitated her involvement. The hosts and guests underscore the universal human desire to belong and how it can be exploited by those with malicious intent.

Notable Quotes

• Lola Blanc: "If you think that one person has all the answers, don't." [02:26]
• Diane Lake: "I was the one that had the shame. I was the one that didn't want to be associated." [29:18]
• Deborah Herman: "Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are a cult leader, but the progression of adulation inevitably leads to power over others." [56:12]
• Diane Lake: "You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something." [56:57]

Looking Ahead

In the forthcoming second part, the conversation will delve into Charlie Manson's further descent into madness, the orchestrated race war he propagated, the infamous Tate-LaBianca murders, and Diane's testimony that played a crucial role in Manson's conviction. Listeners are encouraged to tune in next week for the continuation of this harrowing story.

---

Stay Connected:
Follow Trust Me on Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts to never miss an episode exploring the depths of cult behavior and the human psyche.

Transcript

[Diane Lake]

This is exactly right.

[Annabe Sofas]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with anibe, you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover Annabe Sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life that's washable. Sofa offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Virgin Voyages]

It's the ultimate true crime getaway, but plot twist? It's at sea. Don't miss Virgin Voyages True Crime Podcast Voyage, a five night kid free Caribbean cruise on a luxurious award winning Virgin voyages ship book [e-mail] TrueCrime Let your.

[Lenovo]

Imagination take flight with an AI powered PC from Lenovo. Whether it's creating digital art, designing new software, or building a portfolio for a Future career, our AI PCs are powered by Intel Core Ultra processors to help students unlock smarter learning and unleash their creativity. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, all you have to do is choose the one that fits your passion. Head to lenovo.com to shop AIPCs and find your perfect companion. Plus get 5% off when you create an education account.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes of Trust Me. Diane Lake joined us in 2021 to discuss her experience with the Manson. Then scroll back in your podcast app to Listen to part two of this conversation with Diane from May 19, 2021. If you're new here, follow the show so you don't miss the July 30 return of trust Me on the exactly right network.

[Lola Blanc]

Trust Me, dude.

You trust me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm like a smart person. I've never lied to you.

[Diane Lake]

I never have lied to you.

[Lola Blanc]

If you think that one person has all the answers, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and the abuse of power from two non Manson girls who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Today our guests are Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane Lake, AKA Snake, was the youngest member of the Manson family. And Debra is the co author of her book called Member of the My Story of Charles Manson Life Inside His Cult and the Darkness that ended the 60s. It is a great book. I recommend it. I read it. This episode's a two parter, folks, because there's so much to the story. I cannot believe that Diane was willing to come on and talk to us. I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome. So for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watched every Charles Manson doc like I have, Diane did not have anything to do with the Tate LaBianca murders. In fact, she was actually a key witness in the trial that put Charlie in prison. And the girls. She's going to tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie, living in Los angeles in the 1960s with counterculture parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her. And what it was like when she first met Charles Manson and his girlfriend when she was just 14.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We talk about what it was like being with Charlie, Dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking LSD, and having sex. And in Part two, next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial, and finally facing her trauma.

[Lola Blanc]

I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them. They're so great. I feel like they're us in, you know, however many years. Like, I feel like we will be them. We're them. The rest were them. But before we get into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a story we're going to talk about that's in the news.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We sure do.

[Lola Blanc]

And if y' all haven't heard about it, it's kind of crazy. Megan, do you want to begin?

[Diane Lake]

Sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There is a woman named Amy who has started going by Mother God. It appears this started happening around 2018. She started an ascension cult, got some followers, but. But why Amy is in the news this week is because she was discovered in a basement, mummified, dead, with makeup around her eye sockets and wrapped in Christmas lights.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's be clear, it was glitter around her eye sockets.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Apologies.

[Lola Blanc]

Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called Love has Won. Yeah, she often went by the name Mother God. And there were just like seven people in the house, right?

[Diane Lake]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

And two. Two kids just chilling. So let's be clear. Her body not recently dead. Her body was so badly decomposed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Her body was so dead, they could.

[Lola Blanc]

Not even get her fingerprints.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, she was extremely dead.

[Lola Blanc]

It's not funny. It's just so. It's just like what was happening. So the group apparently said that she ascended. Oh, here are some of the quotes. So, on Sunday, May 1, a man who appeared to be a member of the group posted a video during which he said, mom has ascended and, quote, completed her contract. And then he said, is the mission over?

[Diane Lake]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension sessions 15 years ago. So not 2018.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, apologies. My God.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, she was on Dr. Phil last year talking about her group, but it doesn't look like they murdered her. It looks like, according to one article, she was, like, so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of, like, homeopathic medicine people champion. But if you take too much colloidal silver, it can be poisonous. I think also it can turn you blue. If you Google colloidal silver blue person, you will see that it can actually literally, permanently turn your skin blue, which is fucking insane. But it's suspected that she was selling it as a, quote, cure for COVID 19. Not a cure, my friends. And she was taking so much of it, and she had cancer, so it seems like she probably died from these different things, and then they just created these. This shrine around her body. Don't you think?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right. Yeah, for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

And honestly, I gotta say, I was listening to some death positive podcast last year, and they were talking about this ritual, this, like, death positive ritual, and I don't remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's, like, your guide through your grief comes over and you actually let the body remain in your home for three days and, like, say goodbye to your loved one properly and, you know, cover them in beautiful things. And the practitioner or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the body doesn't decompose. I actually thought that that sounded really nice. I don't know. We're so afraid of death, and we're so, like, we want to avoid it. We don't want to see it. And there's something I think that's really cool about, like, facing it and making it be this loving goodbye ritual instead of, like, get it out of here. We don't want to see the. We don't want to know about death. You know what I mean? So that version of it I actually think is really cool. Letting the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house you're all staying in. Maybe not as much, but I Don't understand.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Was she mummified or was she decomposed?

[Lola Blanc]

I guess one article said mummified. One said her body was so badly decomposed that they couldn't get her fingerprints. So I don't know what that means. What does that mean?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, one of. I don't know. One of the interesting things about her is that she, in a past life was Jesus and Marilyn Monroe.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. It's amazing how many people were Marilyn Monroe in a past life, and Jesus, like, so many people were them in a past life. Who was it really? You know exactly which one? Who's the real one?

[Megan Elizabeth]

One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is when my cat psychic told me my last life was on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, who did? I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, my cat psychic told me that my last life I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.

[Lola Blanc]

So you have a cat psychic? Yeah. So like a psychic who tells you about your. Your cat.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right. And, well, just cat. I only had one session with her. It was a birthday gift. And she was, you know, what's the word? Not real.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, no, but I figured.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But hearing that your past life was just like, wow, cool. We're, like, stealing food from restaurants and then going and hiding out on our tugboat. And I was just like, no, tell me I was Marilyn Monroe. Tell me I was Jesus.

[Diane Lake]

What is this?

[Lola Blanc]

This is crazy. You know what I would love to do? I would love to go to a bunch of psychic people who tell you what your past lives were and give them all different information about myself and see the different, like, variations of past lives that come up. Clearly, y'. All, I do not believe in past lives. I know that some of our listeners might. I personally do not. Nor do I believe that you can determine what your cat's past life was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, I. I wish I didn't believe in past lives, but I think I do, so bummer. But yeah, yeah, this lady.

[Lola Blanc]

Classic. Classic Megan. Aloha.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Am I right?

[Diane Lake]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, past lives indicates that I'm going to have to come back here again, which is just like, lol, but, yeah. I don't know, man.

[Lola Blanc]

What do you think you'll be in your next life?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Probably, like West Kardashian's child or something.

[Lola Blanc]

That sounds right for you. I guess I'm just. Yeah, I'll come back as dirt in the ground, baby. Okay.

[Diane Lake]

No fear.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Anyway, so can't wait to talk to Diana and Deborah. Are you ready? Ready.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's do it.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, here we go.

[Annabe Sofas]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Anabe Sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabric, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lenovo]

Unlock Smarter Learning with Lenovo AI powered PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra Processors. Head to Lenovo.com and choose from multiple devices to fit your passions. If you're a gamer, you can spend less time stressing about GPUs and CPUs and more time dominating with your AI enabled Stream smart engine which optimizes your game performance in real time. Or maybe you're a scientist on the verge of a groundbreaking discovery and need a device with a longer battery life and AI enhanced tools to give you extra time to finish your research. Or you're a musician preparing for your biggest break and need better, faster AI tools to make digital art a breeze like creating band posters and T shirt designs. Or you're a soon to be graduate needing to catch a recruiter's eye to land that dream job. So you need cutting edge smart tools to build your portfolio from scratch. That's the power power of Lenovo with Intel Inside. Plus, college students and teachers get 5% off with an education account on Lenovo.com, a Better Future is waiting and it needs you.

[Virgin Voyages]

True Crime Just got a room with an ocean view this October. Set sail on the first ever true crime voyage from award winning exclusively adult Virgin Voyages. Featuring the hosts behind iHeart's most popular True crime podcasts like Buried Bones, Betrayal and stuff they don't want you to know. This five night Caribbean cruise blends live podcast recordings, meet and greets and Halloween themed events with all the luxury of Virgin Voyages book now@virgin voyages.com truecrime.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Diane and Deborah Diane Lake and Deborah Herman so Deborah, you are the co author of Diane's book, member of the My Story of Charles Life Inside His Cold and the Darkness that ended the 60s. Can you both say your names for our audience so they can tell the difference between your voices?

[Diane Lake]

Hello, I'm Diane Lake.

[Deborah Herman]

And I'm Deborah Herman. And we're used to, like, talking at the same time. We'll try not to.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you guys so much for being here. This is truly a treat. I am. I'm so excited to talk to you. There's so much to get into. I finished your book today and wow, what an amazing story. And so many. Just incredible details. The way you painted the picture, both of you. Yeah, just really gave me a sense of what it felt like to be there, which is something that you don't really get to see very often. I feel like often, you know, stories focus on the graphic details and stuff. But I really enjoyed reading about your life specifically. So start us at the beginning. So, Diane, you originally grew up in Minnesota. Your dad was an artist who was sort of obsessed with this, like, California lifestyle and the counterculture movement that was happening. Your family moves to Los Angeles and that's when your life kind of begins to change. Can you tell us about how your parents started doing LSD and the first time that you took lsd?

[Diane Lake]

My mom actually got high on marijuana with a couple down the street in Santa Monica. My dad was obviously ripe to try it as well, so they tried it and I remember lots of laughing and, you know, they. It seemed like it was a good thing for them. I smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and then he really got into Timothy Leary's whole rap about this epiphany, you know, this new world, you know, it was this alternative kind of reality that LSD was like a mind opener to, you know, some truths that he had been looking for. And so the first trip I took, I took with my two best friends in my living room, and we read Timothy Leary's Tibetan Book of the Dead.

[Deborah Herman]

And I just want to interject, a lot of people focus on that point in the book where, you know, Diane, I think you must have been, what, 13 is now taking LSD and her father's in the other room. He knows it's happening. And they consider it in the context of today.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

So if you're looking at it from the context of that time frame which we tried to create, that whole the feeling, the time, the place, it was very different. Because the purpose of the psychedelic movement was to expand your mind, to change the world and to make it a better place. And so for her parents, I mean, at least presumably it was like a sacrament they were really thinking was going to be good for her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

It wasn't like handing her heroin and being like, go get addicted to this now child. Totally different, very different.

[Deborah Herman]

It was a. And in fact, Lola, you make a very good point. In today's world we would perceive that act as tantamount to giving your child heroin. But that's not what the times were like at that time. It was tune in, turn on, drop out. And it wasn't people using drugs. Yeah, some people were, but the psychedelic movement, recreational use. Exact. It wasn't about that like a drinking.

[Diane Lake]

A beer or you know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

It was about mind expansion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What I found fascinating about it all is in the beginning of the book just how completely different your life was from anything like that. You know, you and your mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking and suddenly it's this entirely different world. And I just can't even imagine what that must have felt like.

[Diane Lake]

I know I have to give my mom a lot of credit. I mean she really trusted my dad and she trusted Go. I mean she really felt like she had seen an angel at the end of her bed, you know, telling her everything was going to be okay. When we were planning this dropping out because, you know, we'd had a big yard sale and sold everything and my dad had been converting a bread truck which is like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step van that you see now.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you explain what dropping out means?

[Diane Lake]

Oh, back then dropping out meant that you gave up, pretty much gave up all your worldly possessions and you know, just lived on a day to day basis, you know, trusting God basically for your food and clothing and you know, at least in my parents mind that's what they were aiming for. My dad was a big proponent of non materialism because it was anti establishment.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

So many social changes were happening during, during those years, during the late 60s, middle to late 60s, culminating of course in 1969 with the crimes. But at that time everybody, it was the flower children, they were all gathering at Haight Asbury because that's what the LSD was doing. It was creating this sense of connecting with one another. And so they were just letting life come and they were getting out of the establishment, which is awesome.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like lsd. I love lsd.

[Lola Blanc]

It's great. It's awesome.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like what? Yeah, you know, I don't know.

[Diane Lake]

I don't want to take it. I don't want to take it now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There's a line, but.

[Deborah Herman]

Yeah, but that was, you know, people. Again, you can't look at it through the lens of 2021.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

You have to look at it as what social changes were happening right before the 60s and the changing tide. You had a very repressed post war society in the 50s. I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV classics, and I watch the old shows. You know, her mother and Diane, they were like, the role of women, and they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

The descriptions of being in Los angeles in the 60s sound so extreme, exciting. I mean, you're going to these love ins. You're seeing the Beatles at Dodger Stadium, you're hanging out in Laurel Canyon with all the hippies, and everyone's like, happy and loving. And at least on the surface. At least on the surface, it's like you're living this communal lifestyle in these various forms before you ever meet Charles Manson.

[Diane Lake]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

So, like the people coming over and living at your house and, you know, you're used to a communal situation.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, no, exactly. My dad got involved with the Oracle. A group of them wanted to start the newspaper that was successful in San Francisco, in Los Angeles. And he was an artist and he got. He started doing those DayGlo posters.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, fun.

[Diane Lake]

The day Glow, the neon. I love those, you know, psychedelic posters. And so he was doing that for them and. And he was, you know, in their art department. And then they lost their lease or whatever at their house, and so a bunch of them moved in with us. And then the paper kind of dwindled. And it was through the Oracle that my dad and a couple of the other guys decided, hey, let's, you know, go on the road. Let's drop out. Right. And so they bought these bread trucks and started converting them into, like, a camper.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Deborah Herman]

And just to see how exciting that sounds to you as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful. Until it wasn't, of course. Diane, what was. What happened to you when you went with that guy to San Francisco?

[Diane Lake]

Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge at that point, but my parents were basically arguing about what? We were just talking about the role of a woman, the role of a man. It was changing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind of overlap into, you know, what are the responsibilities. My dad was always trying to get my mom to come and sit on the couch. With him and read and listen to Allen Ginsberg and, you know, all these enlightened, you know, Odysseus Huxley, all these enlightened people. But she had. She was a domestic at heart. You know, she liked keeping a nice house and, you know, cooking, providing for her family. She had three children, right. I was the oldest. Anyway, at one point we had separated and they had given me a note, you know, basically giving me emancipation as a minor to live with this couple. And then they went to the Grand Canyon, and then they came back and they were going to go to Big Sur. And they said, hey, you know, they came by and said, you want to go with us? And it was like, yeah. So I went to Big Sur with them, and it was there at Esalon that I met this man. I don't know, like, 13 years older than me. And when you're only 14, that's. That's considerable, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Diane Lake]

And he was gonna go to San Francisco, and, you know, he asked me to go with him, and I said, sure. Yeah, I wanted to go to San Francisco. At. By that point, I'd met enough people that, you know, felt that San Francisco, Haight, Ashbury area was the scene, you know, that was the place to go. And so I went with him. And he ended up being a drug dealer and left me in his house for, you know, basically two weeks on my own. And I ended up getting really s. And when he came back, he took me back to Big Sur and they nursed me back to health. And then I. I basically escaped. I. Because they lived behind locked gates and. And they didn't think I was ready to leave. And so. But I was ready to leave. And so I hopped the fence and stuck out my thumb and. And miraculously got a ride for like, three miles by probably some lecherous old man. And I wasn't cooperating. So he dropped me off, and then I stuck my thumb out again and I got this incredible. You know, I got these three angel women in a white Cadillac picked me up and. And they wanted to go to Hollywood, and they wanted to meet Dean Martin. Amazing. And one of the gal. They were from New Zealand, as I recall. And anyway, so I knew the way to Hollywood. I knew enough, you know, basically, Pacific Coast Highway. I knew some people there. I got them to the Sunset Strip, and they dropped me off there. And then I went to visit a, you know, a person or I knew somebody that knew somebody. I was looking for, you know, a friend of mine and my parents, you know, like, where are they? Because they, they weren't, you know, I didn't know where they went. I left.

[Deborah Herman]

They weren't where she left them.

[Diane Lake]

I left them in Big Sur and they weren't there when I went back three weeks later.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Diane Lake]

And so then it turned out they were at the Hog Farm, so that I ended up at the Hog Farm. You know, another iconic commune back then it was Hugh Romney and Bonnie Jean, his wife, were kind of the leaders and you know, they later, Hugh Romney later became Wavy Gravy. Wavy Gravy, you know, of Woodstock fame. And they weren't too happy with me showing up, up. My parents were happy to see me. But you know, the community below wasn't too happy with this commune living on this hill. And so they had posted guards, you know, to not let anybody go up there. And so here I am, you know, this underage, sexually active girl. So they had this little talk with me that they weren't comfortable with my being there. I. Because I was jail bait, you know, for some of the young musicians and the young men coming up to the farm, which they called it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

It's the girl's fault. When an age inappropriate man wants to have sex with her, he must kick the girl out, not the men. Sorry, go on.

[Diane Lake]

Right, right.

[Deborah Herman]

So we appreciate your perspective on that because it was very true. The women, it was always going to be her fault because she was an underage. You know what it was supposedly the sexual revolution. But that was so one sided.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right?

[Deborah Herman]

That's my opinion.

[Diane Lake]

I mean, one of Charlie's things was always, you know, you get rid of your inhibitions. So in other words, spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And if you don't, it's your hang up. It's your hang up.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's so. I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made you feel. Because free love everyone's doing. If, like, if I'm not participating in this movement or I don't feel comfortable with the sexual revolution, like what's wrong with me that I have personal boundaries? You know, I just can't imagine how difficult it must have been at that time.

[Deborah Herman]

Oh, there were no boundaries.

[Diane Lake]

That wasn't even on our radar then. This is your generation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Deborah Herman]

The benefit of boundaries.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Diane Lake]

Well, even part of the whole me too thing, I mean, like, you know, People magazine did this three page spread on me and right when the book came out, it came out in the same issue where Harvey Weinstein and all his accusers were on the front page.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

Right?

[Annabe Sofas]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. @washablesofas.com Discovery Anabe sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lenovo]

Are you shopping for a new laptop while still trying to keep up with technology and AI? Talk about feeling burnt out. But no more. Lenovo.com makes it easier than ever to find the perfect PC. In fact, we'll break it down for you. Shop our lineup of AI PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Because why deal with downloading new software when you can buy a smarter PC that already comes with all of the AI features and tools? Step 2 Find the one that fits your passion. Whether you're a creative genius, a research scientist, a hardcore gamer, or a future CEO, no dream is too big. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, you can keep up with your ideas as well as any challenges you may face. Add to cart and purchase. Oh, if you're a college student or a teacher, make an education account through us and get 5% off your whole order. Shop now at Lenovo. A better future is waiting and it needs you.

[Virgin Voyages]

Where's the best place to binge your favorite true crime podcast? On the edge of your seat or under the Caribbean sun on an award winning Virgin Voyages ship this October, set sail on the first ever true crime podcast Voyage from Virgin Voyages. Catch live recordings at sea. Meet Iheart True crime hosts, enjoy Halloween themed parties and more all aboard a kid free luxurious Virgin Voyages ship. It's like a floating five star hotel with plot twists. Book now at virgin voyages.com truecrime.

[Diane Lake]

And I was like this little one by two inch blurb on the front page but it really was hand in glove with the whole me too movement because I was coming out of my shame of being associated with what with being taken Advantage of.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

You know, it's like I was the one that had the shame. I was the one that didn't want to be associated. And I mean, I still really don't, but it was like that's what these women were coming up against, you know, is that, hey, wait a minute. I was taken advantage of.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Diane Lake]

They, you know, the casting couch thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Diane Lake]

Is very. You know, we all knew that was true, but we just didn't realize the consequences and what it was really doing that it was the man that was in charge of all of that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

You know, and Charlie. Charlie wanted to be a pimp. You know, he learned how to be a pimp when he was in jail so that he could come out and he could control women.

[Lola Blanc]

I learned that from your book. That's such an interesting fact that he, like, he just straight up used those tactics very intentionally.

[Diane Lake]

And we all were broken in some.

[Deborah Herman]

Fashion or other while vulnerable.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Diane Lake]

Had been abused or, you know, had. Had been kicked out of our family. I mean, I had. I. I was never really kicked out of my family. I think that Bonnie Jean and. And Hugh had a couple of friends come up and kind of very nicely asked me would I like to come and live with them. You know, and then they're the ones that introduced me to Charlie.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part at all, but you did experience so much abuse and so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you were 14. And reading about that couple made me really angry. I don't. I can't imagine how you must have felt in your life, but we'll get into that in a minute. But, yeah. What a vulnerable position to be in. And 14 is so young. It is so young.

[Deborah Herman]

I'll tell you something, Lola. When I started working with Diane, I didn't know what to expect. I was just thrilled. And we connected and we started taking this journey together where I would be interviewing her and getting the story. And what was so shocking is that during the first interview, Diane was very kind of flat affect and would just tell as if she was one place and her body was somewhere else. And then she told the story that people would have to read the book. But there's a very vivid scene of her childhood. And she said, she told me that particular story and then just glossed over it. And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up. Do you realize what happened to you? And there was a lack of awareness. And it wasn't really until we took the whole journey together where Diane was able to Reflect back and say, you know, I was a victim.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even. Even how Manson treated her. There was a lot of brainwashing.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. So you're at the Hog Farm. Wavy Gravy essentially kicks you out. Tell us what happens next.

[Diane Lake]

Then this other couple, and I think that they were friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean, showed up and invited me to come and stay with them. And they didn't live at the Hog Farm. And so it's like, yeah, because I didn't feel welcome. They didn't kick me out. They said I could stay there, but they wanted me to sleep in the attic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And I didn't just. I just didn't feel welcome. And my parents, you know, had already, like, given me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them for, you know, a month or so, and they didn't enfold me. Like I said, they were struggling with their new roles as men and women and the kind of consensus there was. It takes a village, which I think Hillary Clinton really coined that phrase. But that was the idea, is that the adults in the commune kind of collectively looked over and after all the children.

[Deborah Herman]

Or not.

[Diane Lake]

Or not. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Or not.

[Diane Lake]

But, I mean, that was the idea.

[Lola Blanc]

Until you become of jail bait age. And then. And then you're out, or then you're in the attic.

[Diane Lake]

Right. And so anyway, so I went with this other couple and. But I didn't enjoy being with them. They. They shot speed, and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking some marijuana and taking lsd, Right. And so they invited me to come along with them to this. To, hey, meet this groovy guy and his girls. Is basically was the invitation. And so I went with them and. And I walked in and it was this house that I already live in with other people. So I knew the house, but I'd never heard of Charlie and the girls.

[Lola Blanc]

And this is in Topanga, right?

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, at the. At the base of the canyon. Just in this little, you know, it's now like a park. It's like a preserve or a reserve type park. Anyway, I walked in and I think it was Lynette that came up and went, diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here. I was like, what?

[Lola Blanc]

You're like, who are you?

[Diane Lake]

Right. How do you know me? It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time. And Charlie got up from the circle and came and offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced me and, you know, welcome. Hey, come and Join us in the circle. Which was, you know, what we did most of the time, especially in the evening. We'd gather in a circle and Charlie would play his guitar and sing his songs, and we would sing along.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. So. And Lynette is squeaky, correct?

[Diane Lake]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

This redhead girl comes up and is, like, so excited to meet you, and you don't know who she is, but you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers. What was your first impression of Charlie? Like? What did he seem like? What was the vibe?

[Diane Lake]

Fun. Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or was a short little man and, you know, with curly hair and really, I think. I think we've analyzed this. I think he was like 33. Well, my youngest son is 31, and I certainly don't think of him as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest son is 37. But even when he was 33, I mean, it was like, oh, you know, handsome.

[Deborah Herman]

And also, you need to understand there was an archetype of the long hair, guitar playing guru type person at that time. And he would have fit into every group I knew, even though I was just younger enough that I missed some of that early mid-60s. But everybody, you know, if you were at a party at your friend's house and somebody took out a guitar and they had long hair, you were all enamored. I mean, oh, the guy with the guitar. That's why they played the guitar.

[Lola Blanc]

That's a good point. Right?

[Deborah Herman]

They could get the girls at the time, he did not look or behave in ways that were so outrageous.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

He was also so love bombing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Deborah Herman]

With each of the women, of course, that even if he told them, hey, I just got out of jail, it was like he gaslit them in a way that made them feel sorry for him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

And all the women, like, wanted to take care of him and nurture him. And it wasn't like. Like today we might say, oh, you just got out of a stint in jail and say, well, maybe I shouldn't hang out with you. It wasn't like that at all.

[Diane Lake]

And it was like, for forgery. Forgery.

[Deborah Herman]

And see how they can say now, even today, oh, it wasn't that big a deal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

He just was forging, you know? Why? He wasn't a criminal. He was a perfectly nice psychopath. I mean, right?

[Lola Blanc]

No, but I could see how if you're already rebelling against the system and that's like, part of Your whole ideology, your worldview, then that would be okay.

[Deborah Herman]

Yeah, he was perfect for it. And I'm sure he was very sexy, and he had trained himself to appeal to women. And from my research, because Diane, when we wrote the book, it was Diane's memories, we did nothing to pollute that. Diane hadn't seen movies. She maybe read Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day, but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews. So I was doing the research on, on the side. I read one account. At one point, one of his girlfriends basically said, you're a terrible lover. And she taught him how to please the women. And, and, and then he went back into jail and learned at the feet of the pimps.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

How to control women. So he was training himself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And one of the things I saw in the book was that one of the things the pimps taught him was to make the women feel really special and make them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into play later on.

[Deborah Herman]

Diane, I'm sure you can attest to that. He had that down.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, he was a very special lover. I mean, he often would start with this, just this give and take of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other, you know, it was a dance. It was sweet. It was, to me, it was, it.

[Deborah Herman]

Was like, remember this is the memory of him in the early, early days.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right?

[Lola Blanc]

You're putting your hands together, like, touching hands and moving them around. Is that kind of like.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah. And it was just like this give and take, you know, it was, it was like he was leading, right? He was leading, but not forcefully. I mean, it was, it was a dance. It was foreplay. But it was very sweet, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

And it was very gentle, intimate, it seems. Very intimate. Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

He really got under. Under their skin.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah. It wasn't a wham, bam, thank you, ma', am, you know?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

Made them feel like they were the only one in his life.

[Lola Blanc]

So you spend this wonderful night with him. How do you end up actually coming to stay with them?

[Diane Lake]

I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks. They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona, and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't want to be left behind. So the gentleman that had introduced me to Charlie, Richard, getting, you know, after this back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said, you know, I, I, I don't, I get a bad vibe, you know, I don't think you should go with them. But I didn't want to be Left behind. And I didn't, you know, where am I going to go? I didn't want to go live with Richard and Allegra, and I didn't want to go back to the. I didn't feel welcome at the Hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving the way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me and I was on my own and, And I was the oldest of the family, and I had always been very capable and very an A student, and I'd always been very independent and capable.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

It's a new world. So anyway, that, that's what happened. So I went with them.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?

[Diane Lake]

Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to the Hog Farm while I was in San Francisco. And of course, you know, you've got two leaders. You know, you've got Hugh Romney and you've got Charlie. Two egos. You know, it was like, like there, there wasn't like a mutual ad. They didn't mutually admire each other. And they called him Black Bus Charlie. But my mom, because he had a.

[Lola Blanc]

Bus that was black. Yeah.

[Diane Lake]

My mom loved the girls and they all went on a bus trip. They went on a bus trip out to the desert looking for gas tanks. Charlie was obsessed with gasoline.

[Lola Blanc]

He really.

[Diane Lake]

He was always. Yeah, he always was looking for gas tanks that he was going to weld to the bottom of the bus so that he could have this, you know, unlimited, or, you know, as as much of an unlimited supply of gas as possible. And then as he, he, like, descended into madness, he often talked about digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas tanker and burying it in the desert.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, wow.

[Diane Lake]

That we would have. Yeah. No, I mean, that was one of his crazy illusions or delusions.

[Deborah Herman]

He even mentioned it in, as an aside comment in the transcripts of the trial where. And people didn't really catch it, what he was talking about, but because I, I was so familiar with Diane's story. And then I, I also did the book Inside the Manson Jury, and it examined all of the transcripts and makes us.

[Diane Lake]

Oh, it showed up again.

[Deborah Herman]

It does. Where he says, well, I just want to go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, what an interesting detail. Yeah, that's fascinating.

[Deborah Herman]

And it's not something people would notice if you didn't understand his obsession. And it was all about going off the grid, really. Ultimately.

[Lola Blanc]

It always is, isn't it?

[Deborah Herman]

Oh, yeah.

[Diane Lake]

Because my parents.

[Deborah Herman]

Yes, it is.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Diane Lake]

My parents had. Had this encounter with him. And I was in San Francisco and they talked about they were going to go to San Francisco. Charlie and the girls were going to go to San Francisco. My mom gave them my picture, gave them a photo of me. And, you know, like, hey, when you're in San Francisco, look for this girl, you know, it's my daughter, you know, and whether, you know, it's. I don't know if she said bring her back, you know, or just, you know, see how she's doing. I'm sure she was worried about me. I mean, I, you know, I, I know she was worried about me. So it was like, either bring her back or, you know, bring me a report or something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And so. But I didn't know that I didn't have that conversation with my mom before I met Charlie and the girl. And so when I walked in, see, they already knew me.

[Deborah Herman]

Seemed like magic. Like magic, Carly. Which, of course, he used all of his seeming miracles to continue to create the illusion that kept his people loyal.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Oh, I was so fascinated by the postulating, the term postulating and what that meant for you guys. I mean, can you explain what that is?

[Diane Lake]

Well, his idea of postulating was just like. I mean, I think that there was another, you know, leader of something that talked about positive thinking. So think about something positively and it will come to you. Well, that's what postulating was. So it was like if we needed money, if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we needed gas, you know, we would think positive. Kind of like a meditation. And I mean, it, it's, it's, it's like a prayer. But it wasn't called a prayer.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

You know, it was. It was just sending out into the universe your needs. And it was kind of suspect in some ways. But, I mean, later, when I thought about it as, as a mature adult, but back then we just thought it was like, wow, he's really powerful, because.

[Lola Blanc]

Your needs were getting met. Because he would always get what he wanted.

[Diane Lake]

And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

That was also how people were thinking. And LSD would expand your idea, your consciousness, and this sense of connectedness to all, everything, the rocks, the universe.

[Diane Lake]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

And it was like they were creating this, you know, this manifestation of anything that they needed. And that's also the idea of going off, going away from the establishment and living off the land and everybody loves each other and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

You know, it was, that was the mindset.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How often was he on lsd?

[Diane Lake]

We Took LSD pretty frequently. I think that. But he had a couple of bad trips. I remember there was one really chaotic trip. We had decorated the back ranch house with tapestries, you know, on the walls and the ceiling, you know, Indian tapestries and, you know, mattresses. And it was, you know, we were gonna have had a special guest musician who played the ctar. That's all I remember is we took the lsd. We're all ready. I think it was Paul Watkins that was on the C tarp. And he plucked one string and it just was like. And I was gone. I mean, I, like, followed that note into infinity.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Deborah Herman]

And we were not encouraging the use of drugs.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, never.

[Deborah Herman]

A little too fun.

[Diane Lake]

I don't remember anything till I woke up in the morning and the place was a shambles.

[Deborah Herman]

And there's another thing that Diane remembered and also was confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that some of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into madness was he did have a really bad trip. It was a messianic trip where he. He claims to have relived the crucifixion. And also. Which is not uncommon. Allen Ginsberg, when he took his LSD trip, suddenly became messianic. So a whole generation of people were following someone who basically had a psychotic break.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Deborah Herman]

And so you think of it that way. And the followers, or the family, they were taking lsd. He was administering it regularly, but he didn't always take it. Am I correct, Diane?

[Diane Lake]

Or he didn't take as much. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

So he could be in control, especially after that trip.

[Diane Lake]

And then there had been, I mean, the trip. I think the trip where he experienced the crucifixion, that he. He was the Messiah on the cross, took place in San Francisco. But then he was. I remember a trip when we were at the spiral staircase house where he reenacted that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

It affected his subconscious, you know.

[Diane Lake]

And on lsd, you see these light streams from your hands and it just. An auras. And so it's, you know, it's very. You see lots of light reflected. And so with.

[Deborah Herman]

I see that anyway.

[Diane Lake]

Me too. Me too. So he had us convinced, you know, that we were seeing like a stigmata. I'm sure that he used that.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you paint a picture of just what life was like at first once you're living with them? Like, what are you doing every day?

[Diane Lake]

Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to the bathroom and shower. And so a lot of, you know, your life is revolves around, you know, procuring and Taking care of those needs. So cooking, you know, we did cooking and cleaning and then we made love. And in the evening we'd get in a circle and. And sing songs and he'd give us his little talk tos, which, you know, we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and, and just the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset. So it wasn't, it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know, a new life. And as we moved along, he became more protective. You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless, I mean, if, if you were going to bring somebody into the family. But he was very selective.

[Lola Blanc]

Was he very selective about the women as well or just mostly selective about the men?

[Diane Lake]

I think mostly the guys, yeah, but. Yeah, but I think the girls, you know, the girls too. I mean, he wanted. He wanted them all to be beautiful, you know, because as things moved forward, you know, and we got closer to going to the desert and once we, you know, were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been talking about this black white race war. And it wasn't until the White album came out that it got. Got nicknamed, you know, Helter Skelter. But, but the whole idea, he wanted beautiful. He wanted us to make beautiful children repopulate the world, you know, right after the apocalypse. Because that's basically what it was going to be, you know, and then that the. The black man wasn't going to be able to. To handle it. And then he was. They were going to ask for Charlie's help, you know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

I don't know. I mean, it's just like, when I talk about it, I just, I think, think, you know. Oh, my gosh, he sprinkled a little.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Bit of everything in there.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, he did. And I, I think he. I. I'm a special ed teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism. And you can get stuck, you know, you can get stuck in these mindsets, and I think that's kind of what happened to him, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting.

[Diane Lake]

Whether he was on the spectrum or not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's interesting. That was like gasoline. Sounds like his special interest or something, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, he did have these, like, fixations.

[Diane Lake]

Have, have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know, I mean, they get fixated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

On something and then that brain on LSD all the time.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, right. So. But he, I think he had an auditory. He was kind of a savant auditorially, which to me, that meant that, to me, what that meant was kids with autism. I mean, they can recite whole movies, so stuff that he would hear. And he wasn't a good reader. Lynette would have to read stuff for him. But I think auditorily, I mean, he was, as a young person, exposed to all kinds of sermons and then Scientology and, I mean, and in jail music. And so I think that. So he had all this auditory input that I think he just.

[Lola Blanc]

Just regurgitate, Just kind of parrot it out, right? Yes.

[Diane Lake]

And he would mix it up, you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Know, mirror whatever the person he was talking to needed, probably little snippets.

[Diane Lake]

I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed his life, reality, unreality. He was gifted in that, you know, and even with music, you know, he didn't read music, you know, it was all auditory. So I think he had this kind of almost a savant ability to remember things auditorily.

[Lola Blanc]

That makes total sense. What was your relationship with him? Like, he'd be very kind, obviously, but then he would suddenly hit you, right. And, like, when you weren't expecting it or, like. Can you just describe that dynamic a little bit?

[Diane Lake]

Yeah. I think that as time went on and he, you know, he started having more control and, like, a bigger delusion or, you know, idea of where we were going or where he wanted us to go as a family. And I just. I don't think I was totally on board, which I thank God. I thank God that I wasn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And recently, I kind of got reacquainted with Catherine Sher, gypsy, and she's 10 years older than me. She was kind of tapped, tasked with watching out for me or watching over.

[Lola Blanc]

Me for Charlie, like, keeping an eye on you.

[Diane Lake]

Keeping an eye on me?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

It was also watching out for you because of Charlie, because she saw that he was mistreating you.

[Diane Lake]

But she said that I would, you know, I would. I would listen, but I would lose my focus, and I would just get up and wander off and, like, whatever. So. And. And I think that really, it bothered him, and I wasn't setting a good example. And so he would make an example.

[Deborah Herman]

And just think about it. You've got a cult leader, right?

[Lola Blanc]

You weren't submissive enough.

[Deborah Herman]

She would roll her eyes and. And kind of say, charlie, that doesn't make sense.

[Diane Lake]

It was very cool to reconnect with somebody that knew me back then who was older. I mean, 10 years older. That. That's significant, you know, and she had a much wiser, more worldly view of everything.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, That's So great that you guys got to connect.

[Diane Lake]

Right, Right. I mean, this has been. This been such an incredible journey since. Since I wrote the book and. And, you know, the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I wrote in the book. I mean, it's like there's been this whole. Because now I've read and seen more interviews and been in, you know, quite a few documentaries and seen other people's take.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And so the whole thing has really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature, deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened to him. And, you know, it's still kind of hard for me to understand how the murders happened.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

But you know what's interesting, working with Diane and doing so much research and then looking at the bigger picture of cult behavior, it helped me understand how these things can happen. And I went into working with Diane with the question of how could this happen? Because these were troubled young women, but they weren't what you would think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal or, you know, they were not. They were from. Mostly from affluent homes, intelligent. And people need to understand that when you have an unequal power relationship, this kind of brainwashing or ultimate abuse or control can happen in very. It comes in many, many forms.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

Anyone can be vulnerable. Having a vulnerable moment in their life where they find a person or a group that seems to be the answer to their problems and that. It really seems like what you needed at that time in your life. Diane was a family. And voila. Diane, Diane, we've been waiting for you. Like, boom, there's a family. You know, especially at that age. I mean, gosh, yeah, 14 is so young.

[Diane Lake]

You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something. And that's how gangs and ISIS and, you know, all of these. These terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

Get.

[Diane Lake]

Get sucked in because they want to be part of something bigger than themselves.

[Deborah Herman]

And to feel special.

[Diane Lake]

We all do in some. I think, in some way.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

I know I do. And, yeah, Deborah, to feel special. Absolutely. I want to feel special. I want to belong.

[Deborah Herman]

Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are a cult leader, but what happens with the progression of that adulation from any group of people? It will ultimately lead to having power over others. And the mindset ultimately, you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the people become isolated from the outside world. They're. The only information they're receiving is from the leader and the group. So they're all kind of harvesting the same information. And it becomes a reality. And that's why someone from the outside can look at the mindset and some of the things that Diane and the others were believing at the time, and they were believing it. And to the outside, it's. How could you believe that? But when you're on the inside, it is reality.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I know that firsthand.

[Diane Lake]

I know you do.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls. How was that?

[Diane Lake]

In the beginning? I would say I was the closest, really, to Lynette. Squeaky. Squeaky. Yeah. Yeah. Lynette and Charlie and I. And then. And Patti. I wasn't ever really that close to Susan Atkins, but Patti was like this Mother Earth. I mean, she was like the salt of the earth. I mean, she was just so down to earth. So incredibly down to earth. So I felt close to her. When Leslie came on the scene, I didn't feel. I just didn't have anything in common with her other than Charlie or Tex, you know, because I never went to high school. And so. And she was like homecoming queen or a princess or something, you know, just totally had no clue. I had no clue what that was all about. And so she, to me, she just seemed, like, you know, very shallow and aloof and. And just a silly girl. I don't know. I mean, you know, she wasn't down to earth. You know, she was very flighty, and Sandy was a prima donna to me, you know, she was a spoiled rich girl and, you know, who felt like she'd been abused by her family. She was kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this perspective, because when you hear Manson girls, you picture this, like, monolith of the girls with the crosses and their zombies, and they all have the exact same personality. But no, like, everyone was so different from each other.

[Diane Lake]

But I had been. You know, I hadn't really been part of that aspect at all.

[Deborah Herman]

Also, you need to understand that what you saw at the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes between Manson Squeaky. There was a lot of manipulation of the legal system because they had a goal, and that was to get him out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right, of course. Right.

[Deborah Herman]

So there's a whole backstory and a continuation. By that time, Diane was at Patton State and was being held there for her own safety and for treatment until she would testify.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And I want to get into that.

[Deborah Herman]

I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that people have of these zombie, like, girls, they were true believers at that point in Manson and that he was man's son and that they, he was their only saving grace, that this race war was going to happen and the only person who could save them would be him. And they fully believed it and they were all loyal to him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And I, I think some of the proof of that to me is just how far gone they were in that belief was the fact that when we got arrested for burning a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything to do with the murders. But Susan Atkins had a warrant out and she got transferred to, you know, LA County Jail. And it was there that she started telling her roommates about Charlie.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

And I mean, did she. I think she really thought that the, the doors of the jail were just going to fall off and, and they were going to be free to go to the desert with Charlie.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Diane Lake]

And she was still like, proud of that and trying to con, I think, trying to convince these cellmates about the reality. And then she started, you know, she believed it so much that she started to tell them what her part in these, wow, heinous murders. It's like, why would you do that.

[Deborah Herman]

Unless you were totally, totally brainwashed.

[Diane Lake]

Without a doubt. Brainwashed.

[Deborah Herman]

And think about it too. At that time there were a lot of counter revolutionary groups. And at the time before they. People understood what had really happened and why. There were some of the counter revolutionary groups supporting what had happened, thinking that it was a strike against the establishment. Establishment. Oh, and they actually felt that the murders were like a revolutionary. Yeah, there were horrible collateral damage, but this was something good for the cause.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

I didn't know that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Deborah Herman]

Down is up and up is down.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Deborah Herman]

And you have to consider the times.

[Lola Blanc]

I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see how that would make sense. But. Yeah, I had no idea anyone interpreted it it that way.

[Deborah Herman]

I can't think of the particular group, but there were, you know, radical groups that came out in favor of what he did. Now, of course, later, they didn't necessarily support him.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

But at first they thought that this, you know, they were attacking the establishment and making a statement and, you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So back to the girls for a second. Did you experience any jealousy because you had to share? I'm calling him Charlie just because that's what the book called him.

[Diane Lake]

You know, when I think of him, I don't call him Charles Manson.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

You know, he's Charlie. I Remember, though, thinking at some point that I was in love with him and that I wanted him to just take me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Diane Lake]

Off and marry me. You know, that was in the very early state, you know, very early stages, but there really wasn't. I mean, we were like, you know, sister wives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

For the most part. I mean, and that's what he encouraged, you know, so that was part of the brainwashing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Diane Lake]

Is that we were to squelch those feelings of jealousy. That wasn't. That wasn't. Okay. You know, you need to share and, you know, share alike, and. And he did. When you did spend time with just him, he did make you feel like you were, you know, you were the special one, so. And that was part of his training, and he pulled it off for the most part.

[Lola Blanc]

How did you get the nickname Snake?

[Diane Lake]

I actually was responsible probably, for giving myself that nickname. Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been fasting, and. Because Charlie. That was one of Charlie's things, too, is that we didn't really need food. So, you know, and we certainly didn't want to get fat. And so I had been on, like, a lemon and honey fast for probably 20 days.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, moly.

[Deborah Herman]

I didn't realize it was that long.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah. And anyway, and it was a hot summer day at the top of, you know, Topanga Canyon, and talk about hallucinating. And I. Well, and I wasn't really even hallucinating. I just. Just, you know, I'm a kid, and I just imagined what it would be like slithering through the tall, cool grass as a snake. And so I just recount. I mean, it's just, you know, it wasn't even like something I physically saw. It was just something that I got in the skin of the snake and what that would be like. And I was that, you know, imagery to the girls in the kitchen into one of the places that we lived in Topanga Canyon. And from then on, I was Snake. Charlie gave everybody nicknames, so I just didn't have one yet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, you got to take away your original identity.

[Diane Lake]

But you know what's interesting? I just found this out a couple years ago ago, is that in the Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the snake.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Come on. That's crazy.

[Deborah Herman]

The year of the Snake.

[Lola Blanc]

There you go.

[Diane Lake]

It's humbling to have that nickname, Snake.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So you were all dumpster diving. Some people were stealing cars. You're. I mean, I guess you sort of described every day as. It's just everyday life is like, getting the things done that you need to get done. How did you feel when the race war talk stuff began? Did you feel uncomfortable with it at all? Like, what was that like?

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, it was, you know, was a little disconcerting. I grew up in Minnesota, and my father and mom had, you know, African American friends that would come over for dinner, and they were just, you know, I didn't have prejudice this. But in Los Angeles, you know, and then the Black Panthers and then, you know, and. And Charlie would talk about it, and he'd been hearing about it, you know, since he was a little guy in reform school and then prison. So this was like, oh, insider information kind of thing.

[Deborah Herman]

Again, in the context of the times, it sort of overlapped the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King.

[Diane Lake]

King.

[Deborah Herman]

And he was assassinated in 1968. So, you know, it was all during that time that at the same time, there was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers, who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully. Let's do, you know, let's do this.

[Lola Blanc]

To have a revolution.

[Deborah Herman]

And so it all was overlapping. So I think the rhetoric was supporting his upside down thinking that this was going to happen. And plus, another thing that you have to consider is that he would take pieces of information from many different sources and right down the street, literally from. I mean, we drove there, when we did our tour right down from Spahn Ranch was. Oh, right, what is it?

[Diane Lake]

Fountain of the World World.

[Deborah Herman]

And they're another cult.

[Diane Lake]

Yes.

[Deborah Herman]

And their leader, he espoused a race war, and all of his followers believed in that race war. And so again, you've got a mishmash.

[Diane Lake]

Krishna Venta. Thank you.

[Deborah Herman]

That was gonna bother me all night. Krishna Vanta.

[Lola Blanc]

This is another cult leader that, like, everybody kind of knows.

[Deborah Herman]

Or it's. Well, he didn't. He was murdered or bombed. But the actual cult housing and the buildings are still there.

[Diane Lake]

I bet a remnant of them still are part of that cult.

[Deborah Herman]

And they went there. Diane went there with.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah, we went. We tried to recruit them, or we wanted them to recruit us. I don't know. We want. We tried to combine forces with them.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That could have made it way worse.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Deborah Herman]

Yes.

[Diane Lake]

They didn't like Charlie.

[Deborah Herman]

No. Oh, the nuns.

[Diane Lake]

That's good.

[Lola Blanc]

That were like opposing cult leaders.

[Diane Lake]

Exactly. Well, and their cult leader was dead.

[Deborah Herman]

But they were still loyal to him.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, so they were dead. And Charlie was like, let me go get these people who need a new leader. Ah, I think so.

[Deborah Herman]

Like taking over an anthill or something.

[Lola Blanc]

Fascinating. And we will Leave it there for now. Stay tuned for next week. There is so much more to get into. Megan?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Say you're 14, Los Angeles, 60s, pretty unstable childhood. Lots of moving around, lots of communes, lots of predatory men coming after you.

[Deborah Herman]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

What do you think? Would you.

[Diane Lake]

Oh, absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

Would you meet up with Charlie?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, go on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, how. I mean, just in pure survival mode. She needed someplace to go, and I would have, too. And. And I think he. From what I've read, and he sounds like he can be very seductive in making you feel like there's a bigger purpose. And that's very compelling for my personal brain, so I totally understand.

[Lola Blanc]

Your personal brain. My personal brain, my public brain, totally different story. I agree. Absolutely. Even just the moment that she described when she shows up to this house and they all just know who she is and they know her name and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked out of this other place. I mean, Even at age 33, my current age, that would be very alluring to me.

[Diane Lake]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But imagine at 14. Oh, my God. 14 is the age that. We've talked about this in the past. 14 is the age that. Or maybe 13, but that I prayed to Satan for friends because God hadn't delivered me any, you know, and you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Believed in God, so that was a, like, real.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. I was desperate. So imagine. And I had great parents who were, you know, like, loving parents. And I can't even imagine, like, I can't imagine not joining the group at that time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And of course, like, it's all about the slow descent.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

His slow descent into madness. And by that point, that's your life, that's your community. So I urge people to consider, you know, obviously some horrific murders happened. It's easy to think we could never do that because it's so horrible. But I urge folks to consider if they were in that same situation, you know, and on all kinds of lsd, you might be susceptible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far down with drugs, there would have been a totally different outcome?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine mental illness and instability there already. Like, he'd had a track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in and out of jail, his whole life. So it's. It doesn't seem like he was on the straight and narrow other than drugs. You know what I mean? Right. It seems like classic sociopath stuff, like the unpredictable violent behavior. Clearly had a conscience, hadn't been much of a factor for him. So yeah, so maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that particular point. But, you know, one always wonders if the music career had gone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, you know, Isn't Andrew Keegan. Doesn't he have a cult in Venice?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know if it's a cult or if it's a religion. I think he's like a pastor.

[Diane Lake]

Oh.

[Lola Blanc]

People call it a cold. I don't know if it's a cold or if it's just like an independent religion, but we should have him on and find out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who he was, and he had a parrot and a pug and a Pomeranian.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm sorry, does he only have pets that start with pee? A parrot, a pug and a Pomeranian walk into a bar. What is that?

[Deborah Herman]

But yeah, you know, it's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's some crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah. Yeah. Wow, a parrot. Just have a parrot. All right, y' all come back next week and hear the rest of this story.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, please do. I can't wait for y' all to hear the end of the story. And for now, remember to follow your gut.

[Lola Blanc]

Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me.

[Diane Lake]

Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEART or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40%.

Off terms apply every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can help you knock out.

[Virgin Voyages]

The rest of it.

[Lola Blanc]

Belveda breakfast biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt. You if and fruit that provide steady energy all morning. While Belvita energy snack bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel. Best part, they both taste great. So make the most out of your morning with a bite of Belvita. Pick up a pack of Belvita at your local store today.

[Virgin Voyages]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to home hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.