REWIND: Glynn Washington - The Worldwide Church of God

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: REWIND: Glenn Washington - The Worldwide Church of God
Release Date: July 2, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Glenn Washington

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Introduction and Background

In this compelling rewind episode of Trust Me, hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth reconnect with Glenn Washington, a renowned public radio host known for Snap Judgment and other storytelling shows. Glenn shares his deeply personal journey of growing up in the Worldwide Church of God, an apocalyptic religious cult founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. The episode delves into the psychological manipulation, extremist beliefs, and the social ramifications experienced by cult members.

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Early Life in the Cult

Glenn begins by describing the foundational beliefs of the Worldwide Church of God, emphasizing the apocalyptic worldview that the end of the world was imminent. (12:46) He recounts how the church demanded rigorous Bible study, leading him to memorize extensive passages from both the Old and New Testaments. This intense focus on scripture was competitive, with members expected to quickly locate and recite verses during services.

Glenn Washington (12:46): "Growing up, we were always studying the Bible. In fact, as a kid, I spent a lot of time memorizing the Bible."

The cult's stringent rules extended to personal relationships, enforcing white supremacist ideologies that prohibited interracial dating. Glenn highlights the emotional turmoil caused by these restrictions, especially in rural Michigan where he felt isolated and marginalized.

Glenn Washington (37:35): "She got reclassified by Look. See? [...] I was out of luck."

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Cultural and Financial Manipulation

A significant aspect of Glenn's experience was the financial exploitation inherent in the cult's practices. Members were required to tithe a substantial portion of their income, often leaving families impoverished. Glenn describes the Feast of Tabernacles, a seven-day festival where members were expected to lavishly spend their reserved income in a controlled environment, reinforcing dependency on the church.

Glenn Washington (21:00): "The idea is you are giving yourself a taste of the world tomorrow. A taste of heaven on earth."

The church's financial demands were relentless, with multiple layers of tithing and offerings siphoning off what little income members had. This financial strain was coupled with communal activities that isolated members from the outside world, making escape psychologically and practically challenging.

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Psychological Control and Community Building

Glenn emphasizes the cult's use of shared narratives and collective storytelling to maintain control over its members. The communal singing and synchronized activities fostered a strong sense of belonging, masking the underlying manipulation.

Glenn Washington (57:39): "Narratives and a shared like story is maybe the most powerful thing of all."

This psychological control extended to isolating members socially, cutting off relationships with outsiders, and enforcing strict adherence to the cult's doctrines. The constant reinforcement of impending apocalypse created an environment of fear and dependency.

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Leaving the Cult and Aftermath

The turning point for Glenn came when he encountered literature questioning the origins and authorship of the Bible, leading him to doubt the cult's teachings. His pursuit of truth culminated in leaving the Worldwide Church of God, a decision fraught with emotional and social consequences.

Glenn Washington (51:15): "When you leave, it's not just you leaving. And you do that to your family."

Leaving the cult meant severing ties with family and friends, resulting in long-lasting emotional scars and social isolation. Glenn shares the haunting experience of being tracked by the church's operations even after his departure, illustrating the extent of their control.

Glenn Washington (54:13): "I couldn't do it. I don't know. Nobody knew where I was. I didn't know where I was."

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Reflections and Current Beliefs

Today, Glenn identifies as a born-again agnostic, distancing himself from all extremities of belief systems. He reflects on the importance of narrative in shaping human behavior and warns against the manipulative power of shared stories, whether in cults or broader societal contexts.

Glenn Washington (57:56): "What you believe is the least important thing about a person. What you do, that's what really kind of people believe."

Glenn advocates for personal responsibility and positive impact over rigid belief systems, emphasizing that our actions define us more than our doctrines.

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Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with a heartfelt discussion on the enduring impact of cult involvement on personal relationships and self-identity. Glenn expresses gratitude for his journey out of the cult and the lessons learned about the power of storytelling and community.

Glenn Washington (58:56): "It's scary to see the same techniques that were used in that cult be used in our national political dialogue as well."

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Key Takeaways

• Psychological Manipulation: The cult's use of intense Bible study and competitive memorization fostered deep psychological control.
• Financial Exploitation: Excessive tithing and controlled spending left members financially dependent and isolated.
• Social Isolation: Strict rules against external relationships created profound social isolation and dependency on the cult.
• Power of Narrative: Shared stories and communal activities were pivotal in maintaining control over members.
• Leaving the Cult: The process of leaving was emotionally traumatizing, leading to social estrangement and long-term psychological effects.
• Current Perspective: Glenn advocates for action over rigid belief systems, emphasizing personal responsibility and ethical behavior.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Glenn Washington (12:46): "Growing up, we were always studying the Bible. In fact, as a kid, I spent a lot of time memorizing the Bible."
• Glenn Washington (21:00): "The idea is you are giving yourself a taste of the world tomorrow. A taste of heaven on earth."
• Glenn Washington (57:39): "Narratives and a shared like story is maybe the most powerful thing of all."
• Glenn Washington (51:15): "When you leave, it's not just you leaving. And you do that to your family."
• Glenn Washington (54:13): "I couldn't do it. I don't know. Nobody knew where I was. I didn't know where I was."
• Glenn Washington (57:56): "What you believe is the least important thing about a person. What you do, that's what really kind of people believe."
• Glenn Washington (58:56): "It's scary to see the same techniques that were used in that cult be used in our national political dialogue as well."

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Conclusion

This episode of Trust Me offers a profound insight into the workings of the Worldwide Church of God through Glenn Washington's personal narrative. It highlights the intricate balance between belief and manipulation, showcasing the enduring impact of cult involvement on individual lives. For anyone interested in understanding the psychology of cults and the journey to reclaim autonomy, this episode is an invaluable resource.

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For more episodes and firsthand accounts from cult survivors, follow Trust Me on the Exactly Right network and stay informed about the complexities of belief and manipulation in organized groups.

Transcript

[Glenn Washington]

This is exactly right.

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[Lola Blanc]

You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes of Trust Me from July 14, 2021 about Glenn Washington's experiences growing up in the apocalyptic religion the Worldwide Church of God. If you're new here, follow the show so you don't miss the July 30 return of trust Me on the exactly right network. If you have your own story of being in a cult or a high control group, or if you've had an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like to share, leave us a message on our hotline number at 513-900-2955.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Or shoot us an email at trustmepodmail.

[Glenn Washington]

Trust me, dude. You trust me. Trust me. I'm like a smart person. I've never lied to you. I never have lied to you.

[Lola Blanc]

If you think that One person has all the answers. Don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief, and the abuse of power from two former members who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Today our guest is Glenn Washington, whose voice you may have heard already because he hosts public radio's storytelling show Snap Judgment, which is so good.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So good.

[Lola Blanc]

As well as the. The podcasts Heaven's Gate and Spooked, and probably more so. Glenn is here with us today because he actually grew up in an apocalyptic religious cult called the Worldwide Church of God. He's going to tell us about what it was like believing that the world could end at any minute, the special trips members of the church would go on to intentionally blow a huge chunk of their income, and how, thanks to the group's white supremacist ideologies, he wasn't allowed to date outside of his own race. He's also going to tell us about the book that began to change his thinking, the trip that solidified that change, and what he believes now. Very excited to get into that. But before we do, dearest Megan, what is the cultiest thing that's happened to you this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

My boyfriend's mom started selling a, like, skincare line. Okay. It's called Roden and Fields or something. Everybody knows what I'm talking about, I'm.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure, but I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm just gonna act like I do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's a skincare line. And she was like, you should try it. And I was like, okay, whatever. But I did, right? And people keep saying that my skin looks good and saying, what are you using? And then I have to basically give them, like, a cult spiel back.

[Lola Blanc]

Like a little. Little mlm. Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm like, well, it's this thing. You order it online. You can get a discount if you pay the $75 and, like, all this shit. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is so embarrassing. I need to just say I'm using, like, something else.

[Lola Blanc]

Have you found them, any customers yet? Yeah, you have? Oh, my God.

[Glenn Washington]

The.

[Lola Blanc]

Great. This is great.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So you're embed in a pyramid scheme now. Exactly. So that's cool.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's pretty cool. Did anything as culty happen to you this week?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, this week I have been dealing with the past couple weeks, actually. I've been dealing with some physical problems.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Some health things, and they have to do with my bladder. Oh, tmi. Y' all love me some tmi.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why aren't bladders sexy? They.

[Lola Blanc]

They touch the vagina, okay? Oh, my God. Yes, they do touch the vagina, and it's a fucking nightmare. But as a result of these issues, and as a result of having terrible health insurance, like, don't even get me started on the fucking stupid healthcare system in America. But I have been unable to see a competent doctor. And so now I'm, like, in a place where I am feeling rather desperate, and I. I feel like I am 100% vulnerable in this moment. I spoke to my friend's mom on the phone who's, like, a homeopathic healer, which, you know, is so not something that I do. And if someone came up to me and was like, lola, I have the solution for your thing. All you need is this $500 program. I'd be like, I'm in. I'm sold. I will join. Just make it stop. Just someone make it stop, please.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

That's where I'm at.

[Megan Elizabeth]

My old roommate. I remember once I came home and she had all of these bottles of tequila and the nice tequila, those, like, white and blue bottle, weird bottles, you know? And I was like, are you having a party? And she was like, no. I went to a natural healer, and she said, to cure my bladder infection, I need to take a bath. And tequila.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I was like, that can't be true. You have to not do it. But she did it, and it didn't go away, so.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, well, that's. I feel like generally, when you see someone who's not a doctor, sometimes it's great. Even actual doctors don't know what the fuck they're talking about half of the time, which is what's especially maddening.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is the true cultiest thing of the week. If it was happening to men, there would be 40,000 cures. It's not. It's happening to women, so they're like, we don't know. It's weird. Figure it out.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I know so many women who are struggling with recurring, chronic mystery diseases that science is just like, oh, needs more research.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're imagining it.

[Lola Blanc]

Probably stressed. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Stop wiping from back to front. We're not.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm like, oh, my. Doing that. I am so fucking. If another doctor tells me that, I will scream. I know. To not. Okay. Not to get disgusting. But we know not to do that, y'. All.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we do.

[Lola Blanc]

But anyway, it's. It's rough life over here, y'. All. I will survive. I'm a survivor. I'm going to make it. I'm a survivor. Keep on surviving. Beautiful. It's beautiful, right? Beautiful. Destiny's Child Lyrics okay, how about we start talking to Glenn now?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sounds good. Let's do it.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's do it.

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Glenn Washington to the show.

[Glenn Washington]

Thank you so much for having me here today. I really appreciate it.

[Lola Blanc]

We really appreciate you coming on. I. I'm such a big fan of you and your voice and your podcasts. You have such a soothing but also incredibly engaging audio presence. So I'm very excited.

[Glenn Washington]

What? What? Go on. Do go on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And now you can admire his face too. We can see his face. So.

[Glenn Washington]

Wow. Oh my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Full package.

[Glenn Washington]

No makeup, no fill up.

[Lola Blanc]

I would never have known. So one thing that is a fun fact about you as the host of Snap Judgment and other show including Heaven's Gate and Spooked, is that you yourself grew up in a cult.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, I'm a cult baby, that's for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Cult baby gang. Yep. So you grew up in a group called the Worldwide Church of God, now called Grace Communion International. It was founded by a man named Herbert W. Armstrong, radio and televangelist who built his following through religious broadcasts in the 30s, 40s and 50s. I actually listened to one this morning and. Really? Yeah, I found it very fascinating because it was like from 1941 or something and he was talking about how Hitler was evil and I was like, yeah, well, if I heard that on the radio, I probably would find that appealing, you know. Can you please tell us how your family came to be involved in this group?

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, it's interesting you were listening to something from 1941 because I'm not sure if you listened to the whole thing, but he probably would have said that Hitler's rise foretold the end of the world and that Jesus was going to come soon. That was something he started selling in the 40s. He sold it again in the 50s. Every so often the world was coming to an end and that he had a secret access to unlock the Bible that no one else knew but him. Herbert taught a very fundamentalist view of Christianity. And the big thing was he would always say, is prove all things. Go see it if it's in the Bible yourself. And growing up, that's what we did. We were always studying the Bible. In fact, as a kid, I spent a lot of time memorizing the Bible. That's something you can only do as a child. Yeah, adults can't really do that, but you can do it as a kid, memorize huge passages of the Bible.

[Lola Blanc]

Like how much of the Bible are we talking here?

[Glenn Washington]

Chapters and passages. So much. I can't. So many words, so much stuff. The church sponsored something called Bible Bowl. I'll just Have y' all know I was the Bible bowl champion of Michigan myself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We are talking to the Bible bowl champion.

[Glenn Washington]

The Bible bowl champion. You better believe it. What passage? What'd you say? Jeremiah 10, verse 3. I know what it is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Being, like, so competitive about it is so funny too, right?

[Glenn Washington]

Competitive about not just reciting passage of the Bible. Everyone had to basically follow along with the Bible when you went to church. But the Pastor says, Zacharias, 3, 16. If you take longer than 10 seconds to turn there in your Bible, then that means you need to study more because you should be able to just flip to it right away.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

And I say all that because, yes, it was a crazy cult. Yes, it was absurd. Yes, it was all these things. But at the same time, there was that element where you had to go in and engulf yourself in this book that you supposedly believed.

[Lola Blanc]

Mm.

[Glenn Washington]

It's been my experience that since then, a lot of people claim to believe that book who've never read it for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

And as crazy as that crazy cult was, and it was insanity. It was insanity squared. At least they read the book.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, True, true.

[Glenn Washington]

And I think in reading the book, at least in making that young generation that I was. I grew up in the church and making us memorize it, it kind of sowed the seeds of their own destruction. Because later on, if you tell my group of teenagers that it says so and so and so in the Bible. I don't know. It doesn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, right.

[Glenn Washington]

Where.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

Huh. I don't see you show me where it says that. And you're digging a hole in your own ship if you do that. And that's what happened. And a lot of people did. It's like prove all things. That's good if you kind of have a. Oh. A casual relationship with the book. But once you get past that intermediary period, there's a lot of things that's going to be hard to prove.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were you memorizing the Old Testament and the New Testament or just the New Testament?

[Glenn Washington]

Oh, yeah. Old Testament and the New Testament.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Glenn Washington]

The Old Testament is quoted 137 times in the New Testament. These books cannot be taken apart from each other. They are one in the whole teaching. But it is true. And, you know, I don't want to get too much into theology because I've left. Obviously. I would just tell you this. When you start looking at the book, the Old Testament and the New Testament together are extraordinary documents. It's amazing that they were preserved and that you have them and then you have this look into the past and you have this idea of what people were thinking, what they were grappling with, what they were wrestling with from a theological, from a political point of view, trying to create a type of early history and a sense of identity. Whatever you want to go on about, these are amazing books.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

But my question was where'd they come from? Who wrote them? Where did this thing come from? It wasn't. I got past the point, well, God wrote it. Well, how did that work when I was on my way out and I'll get to a little bit later on what I was on my way out from, but when I was on my way out, I asked my pastor that question, said who wrote these books? Where'd they come from? And to his credit he gave me a book. It was called who Wrote the Bible? And this is when I was in my late teens and I read that book and I read it again and I was out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

It was kind of one of those things. And I got to actually explain what I was out from. The Worldwide Church of God was an apocalyptic end of days Jesus cult with white supremacy elements thrown in. The idea was that Herbert W. Armstrong, who you mentioned, had been given revelations directly by God that gave him special understandings to unlock the hidden keys of the Bible. And those hidden keys to his way of thinking were mainly prophetic and that he could tell that the end of days was nigh. And he had special ability to read world events and pair them with the Bible and be able to come up with what's going about to happen. And you better get your act together. Now if you are again a casual believer of the Bible and you watch world news and you hear somebody melding the two, that can be very persuasive to somebody.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure.

[Glenn Washington]

It says here, here's the beast power and the beast power does this isn't that. And he's in Eastern Europe and boy, that looks like Hitler. And this is what's going to happen because he's foretold in the Bible and this, this and that, that's what we believe. But you go back further. Herbert came from the Seventh Day Adventist tradition and he also was an ad man.

[Ad]

Yes.

[Glenn Washington]

Ah, right, he's an ad man. So when he went through his own searching, when he left, I think probably got kicked out of the Seventh Day Adventist organizations and he started searching and basically created his own situation. Christian based culture generally going to have somebody praying overnight and sweating and wrestling with the truth or whatever it is before God speaks to him. He has his Own story of that where he was filled with this type of enlightenment. Almost a Joseph Smith type story.

[Lola Blanc]

I was going to say that. Yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

This happens again and again and again. But again, he was an ad man, so.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you think he believed it for real, or do you think he was just an ad man?

[Glenn Washington]

It's such an interesting idea. A lot of the people who I grew up with, we go back and forth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

Did he believe it for real? I still honestly don't know. It got to be such madness. I'll say this. He believed the money for real.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

He knew how to make a pitch for real. He lived high on the hog. For real. He was one of the first sort of people to justify buying an airplane for real.

[Lola Blanc]

An airplane. Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

He had airplane money coming in.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, he was charging people 30% tithing. Right. At different points.

[Glenn Washington]

Oh, yeah. The 30%. That was an innovation. So. But did he believe it? Did he believe it? I honestly, I think that some people really love to hear themselves talk. They can convince themselves of whatever it is. Sometimes his stuff ended up being so contradictory and ridiculous. It's hard to believe anyone believed it when you actually listen to the words. But I think that maybe he did believe it. I think he was one of those people who. It didn't matter. He would make himself believe anything. And whatever he believed just happened to be for his own benefit.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He was ad man and customer.

[Glenn Washington]

Exactly. And if he needs to believe something else, he can believe that too.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right.

[Glenn Washington]

But, yes, you mentioned the 30%. That was an innovation of the Worldwide Church of God. Lots of people know about tithing, but have you heard of the second tithe? We did not celebrate Christmas, Easter, all those types of holidays that most people who consider themselves in the Christian faith celebrate. We celebrated Passover, Pentecost, the Day of Atonement, which was a fasting day, which is essentially Yom Kippur. This is, again, like, it was taken from a lot of religions. These are oftentimes more associated with the Jewish faith.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, right.

[Glenn Washington]

The Feast of Tabernacles, the last great day. These are our holidays that nobody's ever heard of. And most of the people who were drawn to this organization, they didn't have a lot of money. I was in a rural community, and no one had a lot of money. But you had, number one, you had the tithe. But because we didn't celebrate Christmas or anything like that, the deal was we had something different than Christmas. Better than Christmas. Yeah, better. I said it better.

[Lola Blanc]

Better than Christmas.

[Glenn Washington]

Better than Christmas. It was Called the Feast of Tabernacles. And so the idea behind the Feast of Tabernacles is you save 10% of your income in addition to the tithe, save another 10% of your income and you keep it. And you go every October on a seven day festival where you are commanded to blow it. To spend the ball in hotels, fancy dinners, whatever it may be. Because the idea is that you are giving yourself a taste of the world tomorrow. A taste of heaven on earth.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

Go. And you blow it. So imagine a poor family like us. Now again, I'll put you in my position for a little bit. I'm poor. I live in the middle of nowhere, rural Michigan. And I'm in some religion that nobody understands. I feel very, very isolated, especially at school and stuff like that. We don't celebrate birthdays. I'm always talking weird stuff. I'm an outsider just by default on almost every single thing I do. Then they pull me out of school in October because we're going to the Feast of Tabernacles, which means we load up our Country Squire station wagon and we get in, we start driving to. We call it the festival location, which is different sites all over the country. The closest one to where we are in Michigan was usually in Wisconsin, Wisconsin Dells area. There's a big place in Wisconsin, Dallas. It's a resort community. So before you start driving, you have to put a green sticker on your car that comes directly from headquarters in Pasadena, California. That lets you know that you have all privileges to go to this festival or whatever it may be. You put that on your car and you start driving. Now again, you're in the middle of nowhere, middle of nowhere. And start driving. Then you got 10% of your entire income for the year in your pocket. My dad, everybody's happy. Like, nobody ever asked me if I want to stop. And McDonald's or something. That didn't come up. Now. Yeah, I want to stop. Yeah, get some extra fries. Yeah, we ballin up in this piece. I want the cheese. Put some cheese on, some extra cheese. We start riding. We start riding and you're riding down the street, down the road, down the highway, and it's like, wait, wait, wait, you see it off in the distance, there's another car. And you think, you see they got a green sticker on their car too. And you try to pull up beside them and they got kids, and you got kids and you're honking and waving. You're not alone anymore. That's another family with a green sticker. Now Y' all gonna ride together. In fact, you might even pull off the side and have kids go back and forth. And then y' all keep on rolling.

[Lola Blanc]

And then you keep rolling some more.

[Glenn Washington]

And you see another green sticker and another. And the closer you get to the feast site, you're seeing green sticker, green sticker, green sticker, green sticker. You've gone from being alone in the middle of the wilderness to being part of this excited, crazy, happy clan of people who have got more money than they know what to do with. And you get there, you can stay in a hotel. I never stayed in a hotel. Could stay in a hotel with a swimming pool. What? What? And everybody. And you can only stay at select hotels they make deals with. So everybody you see that's at that hotel is part of your group. Every single person. You are not alone anymore. This is all the kids, all the adults. Everybody is part of your group. Now go to Wisconsin Dells. They have a big facility. They could seat 10,000 people in this facility. Everybody, again, is part of your thing. Now, unfortunately, you gotta go to church twice a day during this time period, but the rest of the time is yours to go out and do your thing. Now, it's off season, too, so Wisconsin Dells, they're like, thrilled in the middle of October. What? All these people running around. That's great. What's good for us as well is that basically, if I saw somebody going into the wax museum, I see somebody getting some fudge. They're us. That's us. Them is us. Everywhere I go, it's just us. That's how you spent that money. You spent that money for that time period. Now, of course, when you're there, they had something called number one, the tithe of the tithe. So that 10%, you were supposed to put 10% of that, it goes to the church. And then they had something called you got to do offerings. And then you had excess tie, which is like, how much excess money? Have you ever had excess money. But if you did, you gotta get out over there to them as well, put that in the basket, and then bring your broke ass home.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. I mean, you did convince me that it's better than Christmas. Other than the part where you go home broke at the end and the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Two church things a day.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

Oh, yeah. Well, I will say this as well. This was technology like never before heard in the 70s and the 80s. I'm a little kid, and there's like, you know, seven to 10,000 people in this facility, which is crazy. And then they have these white coated scientist people come up and they got all this technology and they got wires and cables and stuff. They would say, okay, everybody get ready. And they turn on all the lights and they will project microwave transmission from Pasadena, California. So this is back in the day. And you would see the church in Pasadena, which is the headquarters then. All good cults, by the way, are based in California.

[Lola Blanc]

It's true, true.

[Glenn Washington]

So you see the microwave transmission, they're in Pasadena. And then they'll be like, all right, is London online, is Florida, online is Saskatchewan. You go around the world, you know, Tokyo, da da da da. And everybody would lose their shit because we're like, I can't emphasize it enough. You always felt alone, but for this moment, you were part of a community. It wasn't Even just this 10,000 people you were with. It was people all around the world saying they can see the microwave transmission from Pasadena, California. And the. Everybody would sing, everybody would sing. And you felt like you were singing with people all around the world.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, you were. It's beautiful in a way. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

That must have been a powerful communal moment and a beautiful reprieve from your general loneliness. I mean, I totally get the appeal of that.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, that was that. And that was. I just say, I have to say that's where our second tithe went. The third tithe, every three years you were supposed to come up with another 10%. Now again, this is 10% of your gross. Like this is pre tax.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know, I'm thinking like you guys get 10% at the end of taxes and everything. I don't understand how anyone's supposed to live, right?

[Glenn Washington]

Well, let's just say some people weren't exactly as exacting about throwing that in as they could have been. People were. A lot of people were. A lot of people were not. If we didn't do any tithing, we would still be broke. So I don't know how in the world that was going to work for us.

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[Lola Blanc]

Where in Michigan did you grow up? Because I also grew up in rural Michigan.

[Glenn Washington]

Oh well I'm going to do this right here ladies and gentlemen. I'm showing the hand. Michigan. They show the hand to each other where they grew up. But I was born in Detroit. I lived there till I was five until we moved to the thumb of Michigan. I moved here.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh the thumb.

[Glenn Washington]

Kingston, Cairo, near Bay City. This type of area. This is where I was a farmer. Marlette, Michigan. Okay, crazy story from there. Lived in the Midland area for a while, Mount Pleasant. Then went to high school in the Grand Rapids area before going to University of Michigan.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I grew up an hour north of Grand Rapids in a little town called Newego.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you know Grand Haven, Lola. Grand Haven. No, because that's where I grew up for a while.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, what?

[Glenn Washington]

A bunch of.

[Lola Blanc]

Mr. Danders established this? Yeah, I was on a farm.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do you know where Grant Haven is, Glenn?

[Glenn Washington]

Of course I know where Grant Haven is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All right.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You grew up in a farm, Lola?

[Lola Blanc]

I grew up on a farm, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Michigan.

[Lola Blanc]

Unrelated to my cult experience, we just happened to be on a farm before my cult experience, but yeah, that's cool.

[Glenn Washington]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, look at us.

[Glenn Washington]

Well, then, Lola, we got more than I thought in common. Good Lord. Yeah, I know very well where you grew up. Our cult that we meet in every week was in Grand Rapids. It included your area.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting, because I was just a regular Mormon when I was living in Michigan before, like, pre cult, when our church situation was weird, we had to go to Grand Rapids for our, like, Mormon church. So look at that. Curious. So there was this prophecy about 1975, but you keep saying late 70s. So did you join after this prophecy year was already done?

[Glenn Washington]

I was like, really tiny during then, so I missed that kind of situation. I mean, I think that 1975 thing is what drew my mother in for the first place. Like, oh, my God, 1975, that's going to be the end. But then when 1975 came and went, they stopped mentioning that. So every church basically had a library of books that were written by Herbert W. Armstrong that you could kind of check out or whatever. And some of those books would disappear. Like, it was very, very hard in the 80s to find the 1975 and Prophecy book. That'd be out of speculation. Right. They took that out of speculation. Right. But then somebody would find it at home or something like that, in some back room or something like that. And they get to, you know, fussing at us about we gotta do right. Because of prophecy or something like that. And they're like, what prophecy, huh? Well, this 1975 and Prophet. Where'd you get that? Where'd you get that? That's that. Well, they don't update it. They updated whatever. They. Oh, my God, had new revelations, something. I don't know. I don't remember exact terminology, but I remember they did not appreciate teenagers in the 80s taking out the 1975 book. Book in prophecy and waving that around. I know that for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

I am sure. So was there like, oh, jk, it wasn't then, but it's going to happen soon.

[Glenn Washington]

This is what's crazy about it. Like, you mentioned that you heard something from 1941 they would call dates, specifically the world's going to end such and such and such and such. 1941, 1945, 1956, 19. This is the net, I think 1974. The prophecy book was they finally learned a lesson and said, soon, soon, instead of calling specific dates. Yeah, I do remember this being in Midland, Michigan, which apparently all of us know when I was a little kid, and I'm saying, brethren, if you think we're going to make it through the end of the 80s without seeing the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, well, you got another thing coming. So that wasn't an exact date. And I will say what's interesting as well was, like, there were some people. This was not technically supported by official church doctrine, but there were several respected brethren and lay ministers or whatever. I remember going to one person's house. I don't know. I was trying to get out of this. I don't know how they caught me in this basement, but I was one of my buddy's dads, and he's got a chalkboard and he's taking us through, okay, it's 1980, whatever. And you would divide that by the year of completion, which is six times the Tower of Babel and the sunspots. And you turn that upside down with the number of pages in the original King James version of Bible. And then you get to the end. Time is going to be June 17, 1986, something like that. And you have the date. He said, okay, put that down. And it's like, any questions? And I'm just like, man, you got to let me up out this piece. I don't know what's going on. Especially as young kids at the time, we thought that was mad crazy. I was told as a kid that I would not graduate high school because.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You'D be gone to heaven, right?

[Lola Blanc]

I'd be gone, yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, I'd be gone. I wouldn't be married. I wouldn't have a family. I wouldn't do any of that kind of stuff because that would just. It wasn't in the card for me.

[Lola Blanc]

And did you believe that? Like, how fervent of a believer were you as a kid?

[Glenn Washington]

I believe the general idea. I had a lot of quibbles about specifics, and I had a lot of quibbles about the racial situation there. I thought that they were crazy racists, but I thought that the overall idea of the Bible that they had, that they were doing was right. I did believe that.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you know any other black families in this church? Were you the only.

[Glenn Washington]

There were a couple. This is crazy. I'M going to tell you something. This is the deal. I'm a young man, you know, doing what young men do. The problem was, like, in our area, there were no black girls. And the interracial dating and fraternization, like that was forbidden. It was evil or whatever. And I thought, you know, hey, I like sisters just fine, but there aren't any of them over here. I don't know what y' all want me to do, right? It really sucked. It really, really sucked. But there's a Lansing church, and at Lansing church, they had one black girl there. And so I was supposed to. Oh, there's one for you.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Glenn Washington]

Great.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

She was actually very cute, very cool. But she was in the same fix, right? But I think her father was white. And it was. They coming before they got into the church or something like that. And I didn't know any of that stuff. She was black to me. I was like, oh, you know, I don't know. Later. But she pulled a backstage pass. That's what she did. So there was a secret policy for people who are. They called it indeterminate racial classification. And what you could do is they call it the look, See, Administrative Review. Which meant that you would send a picture into headquarters in Pasadena, California.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Glenn Washington]

And they would look and they would see how to classify your. Sorry, Ed. Wow. And so what she did, but she got a picture of her, put on a lot of extra flash in the picture, and she sent it into Pasadena, California. And they came back and they said, for all privileges and rights, you are now Caucasian. And this is that. And so the one black girl in the area, she got reclassified by Look. See?

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

I say all that. Just saying. So I was out of luck.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's devastating. That is crazy.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, I was out of luck, right? Now I say all that to say this. I'll just fast forward a little bit. We'll get back to it. But I fast forward a little bit. I left the organization. I lived in Japan for a long time, lived in Malaysia, went to law school at University of Michigan. And my second year of law school, I was having a party for grad students of color at my place. And it was just a dumb excuse to meet women, but it worked out great. So people start filing in. They're filing in, they're filing in. And I see this beautiful black girl. So I go over, I started talking to her, and I said, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Do I know you? And she said, like, that is not a very good line. You know, you need to improve your game, Step up your game a little bit. And I was like, I'm for real. For real. I'm for real. And then it hit me. And then I sang a hymnal from our church. Blessed and happy is the Man. She looked at me like. And it was her. Ms. Look. See?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No way.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God, man.

[Glenn Washington]

I might forget the name, but I don't forget a face.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Did you guys talk about it?

[Glenn Washington]

We did. We laughed ourselves silly that night.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

And I told her how much I didn't appreciate those tricks she was pulling back in the day. And she's like, well, what am I supposed to do? I don't want to relitigate the past, but that's funny. It was hilarious.

[Lola Blanc]

She gamed the system. That's kind of great. But what a crazy premise, like, for you to even be in this group. I mean, like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What was that? Like, how did you feel about that?

[Glenn Washington]

I advise all the kids I see these days, don't grow up in a cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We do, too. Yeah. The strong recommendation that we have, also.

[Lola Blanc]

Don'T join one as an adult either. That's also not great.

[Glenn Washington]

If you see a cult coming, go the other way. Yeah, it was tough. It was difficult. I especially know the ramifications of a lot of it. We cut off my family, my extended family, my cousins. And that really hurt. And it still hurts that I have a deeper gulf with them than I should because of that cult stuff. I had to always avoid them. Or sometimes we would go for almost a year without having contact with them because the church said to. And that was just hurtful.

[Lola Blanc]

That sucks. Did that apply to you, like, at school as well? Were you not supposed to, like, hang out with outsider kids, or was this just a family thing?

[Glenn Washington]

No, you could. I just had a bunch of rules that basically meant it, and people didn't want to hang out with me. I mean, it was hard to classify. I'm already in rural Michigan. I'm black. I'm a crazy farmer. We're broke.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You have the entire Bible memorized.

[Glenn Washington]

I got the. I'm memorizing the Bible. I'm telling kids the truth about Santa Claus.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, me too. That was my problem, too.

[Glenn Washington]

But, like, if you have a birthday party, I can't participate. I gotta go stand in the hall while everybody's eating cake.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

You're creating a social outcast. Put just one of those things, and you're gonna have trouble. Had a bunch of stuff going on. It was tough. It was just really, really tough. But I did have friends at the church, we spent a lot of time together. It wasn't like we were in a compound situation. But because you meet so much. Like, if you're meeting four, five times a week, you might as well be in a compound.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Glenn Washington]

You know, that's kind of what you do. I went to a regular school, but it was just a lot. It was a lot.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, man, being a kid is hard enough. Making friends is hard enough as it is. Just like being someone who does fit in in theory.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I added in the special little thing of telling everybody I met who was wearing makeup or anything that they were going to hell. So that was a fun little.

[Glenn Washington]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I would talk about how hot the fire was gonna be, you know, that type of stuff.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

See, I just had those thoughts privately. I knew not to alienate the children at school.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, good for you, Lola. I wish I would have known.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So did you ever actually meet Herbert, or.

[Glenn Washington]

No, I did a couple times. He would come through and be a big deal. We kind of get in a line and we go and meet him, and we kind of stand in the line. He wrote a book almost a year, whatever new book it was. And oftentimes he would fly around and hand out these books, like prizes to the brethren. And I met him a couple times. I mean, when I say met him, I was in a line and I saw him or something like that, or shook his hand.

[Lola Blanc]

Like a book signing.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, a book signing. That's right. It was a book signing. That's not what we called it, but yeah, it was something like that.

[Lola Blanc]

Did he seem, like, special to you? Like, what did you think?

[Glenn Washington]

When I did. I was a very little kid when I saw him, and they were like, look, don't pull any of your tricks. We get up to meet this great man, you know, you stand up straight, you look him in the eye, and you meet an apostle. And this is a big deal. You're meeting an apostle.

[Lola Blanc]

The last apostle, Right? That's what he would call himself, the last apostle.

[Glenn Washington]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. There's two witnesses that are left. Correct. And he's one of them.

[Glenn Washington]

Well, that was the whole deal that. You know this stuff, man. This is what I'm talking about. So the Bible speaks of the end time being two witnesses that are going to preach until the final days. The old deal was that he would see that he was probably one of the witnesses. What we didn't know was who the second one was. And that was my aspiration. I thought if I got these Bible verses Right. And I did the right thing and got right with Jesus. I would be the second witness because, oh, wow. Herbie's old anyway. He was always old. From my perspective, he's always been old as hell. So I thought, you know, maybe I could slide in. They're gonna need somebody younger and charismatic and brown. Wouldn't hurt maybe, you know, to kind of help get that second witness.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you had that, like, kind of on your shoulders, like, oh, I'm gonna be the second.

[Glenn Washington]

It was an aspiration. It was an aspiration. I didn't see anybody else that seemed to fit the bill, so I thought maybe I could do it.

[Lola Blanc]

I've heard you talk on other podcasts about how you. You're dealing with all this stuff and all this isolation, but at the same time, you felt really special. And that's something that I can certainly relate to. Cause at one point in time, I thought that my mom and I were the only two people on Earth who knew about this prophet and this second coming that was happening.

[Glenn Washington]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Can you talk about that special feeling? And, I mean, clearly you felt special if you thought you were going to be potentially the second apostle or the second witness.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah. Wow. I really did feel like, I guess that I had a lot of issues with various things, but I thought that we were being revealed a special truth that no one else knew. Because in the Bible, the end times talks about saving 144,000 people who would go and meet Jesus in the inn. And 144,000 people isn't a lot of people. And you look around and you see all these people, they're all going to burn. They're all going to burn in this tribulation that's coming. Our deal was, we thought that this big war was imminent and that we were going to be whisked off to a place of safety that people speculated was Petra. That we're going to go to Petra for some reason and live in a cave for three and a half years, and then Jesus was going to come. As an aside, let me just say this. When we were living in the Grand Rapids area at one point, this is rare in my household, there was just nobody there. No one was at my house. And my little brother was in the bed taking a nap in the middle of the afternoon, like four in the afternoon or something like that. And it was my big chance. He's a year younger than me. So I went downstairs and I started screaming, you gotta go to the 7 11, because everybody's going to the place of safety. And you Got to get there right now and meet the Jesus warriors. They're going to take you to Petra. I'll meet you there. Just wait in the parking lot at 7:11. So he wakes up out of sleep and he takes his bike and he goes off to wait at the 7:11. And it gets to be dinner time and my mom and dad ask me like, where's your brother at? I don't know. And when he, when he came back, he was hot. He was hot.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I bet that prank has every layer on it. It's like, you know, just every single layer that a prank could have.

[Lola Blanc]

So mean. That's crazy.

[Glenn Washington]

Anyway, yes, I felt special. I felt, felt chosen. I felt sorry for people who didn't have a special knowledge, you know, I really did. And I remember too when I had left the organization, when you first leave it, I still think that fire is going to rain down from heaven for me or whatever it may be. But I tried to escape, but I ended up getting this fellowship to go study in Asia. I was living in Japan. It's this area that had never seen any foreigners really. And my Japanese is at the time basically non existent. They were trying to ask me what I believed and what my religion was. And I'd be trying to explain it in Japanese to them and they would laugh and laugh and laugh. I remember being at bars like, and I'm listening to myself speak like a two year older about what my beliefs are and I'm laughing at myself because it sounds so freaking stupid. But it was the truth. I will be forever grateful for that experience. I think that trying to explain what you really believe in a different language, it just gives you a slightly different perspective on what the words coming out of your mouth and you're like, what? What did I just say? Huh? That doesn't make any kind of sense.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you tell them you thought that the end was coming at any moment?

[Glenn Washington]

I probably did. But we were near the end times and, and this book had the prophecies that foretold what we're going through right now. And I probably said a lot of things that were baffling me that were literally baffling me even as they came out of my mouth.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Glenn Washington]

But the crazy thing is that yes, I felt special coming up. But even when I abandoned that belief system, I felt like I was Harry Potter and everybody else was a Muggle. Right? I really did. I felt like I had the force even after I abandoned that belief system. That feeling didn't necessarily go away for good or ill in my current Sort of model of the world, of the universe. That feeling makes no sense. It really doesn't. Yeah, but there it is, right?

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I relate to that. So hard not to shout out my own writing, but I wrote about my cult experience five years ago or something, and it specifically talks about the feeling of being special and how once I no longer had those beliefs, I needed to find some other outlet for my feelings of specialness. And so I pursued music full time because I was like, well, I'm clearly special in some way and have to make my mark on the world. And if it's not because I'm chosen to save the world, it's going to be through my music or whatever, you know? Totally, totally get that. Do you have that, Megan?

[Megan Elizabeth]

For sure, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In my mind, I think, like, everybody probably feels a little bit like that from some different way in childhood. They, you know, like, I'm the best at this, I'm this, I'm that. I don't know. But definitely we have an exaggerated version of that. I'm sure. I feel very separate from the rest of the world. For sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. No, it's true. Well, especially in la, probably a lot of everyone here feels special.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's probably my reference.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Glenn, can you tell us about that process of leaving? So you read this book. Who wrote the Bible, and what were the revelations that you had, and how long did that process take and what was going on?

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, I read the book and knew that this wasn't really for me, but the people I was still close to were my friends that were in that organization. Those are my people, and I didn't want to leave them. And more importantly, I guess in a different way, if you leave the church, everyone is obligated to disfellowship you, which means basically shun you and not talk to you and disassociate with you. I didn't want that to happen to me, but I really didn't necessarily want it to happen to them. That process is just so hard, jarring and weird and crazy and hurtful. And a few of us in the past when we said, oh, you don't talk to them anymore, or something like that, we wouldn't do it. That's one of the things where we would try to not go along with the program on. But it's hard to say to someone that you've grown up with since a little kid, now you're supposed to disfellowship me, and I'm not part of that thing. Anymore. It sounds weird because I was almost ready for it. But it's like, do you want to impose that on somebody else? Because when you leave, it's not just you leaving. And you do that to your family. And it's just a ramifications about that. That happened at the age I was. When it was happening was in my late teens. You're supposed to get baptized. Everyone got baptized. I didn't do that. And they kept on asking me when I'm gonna get back. Oh, you know, don't think about that. That's interesting. Anyway, what's for lunch sort of situation. I go back again to that whole going to Japan thing. I had left again. It hurt people. And I remember I was sure, I was absolutely sure this is the right thing to do. But when I remember when I told people that I was doing it, I felt the sky was going to open up and rain down fire.

[Lola Blanc]

Meaning leaving the church or leaving for Japan.

[Glenn Washington]

Leaving the church. Leaving the church. But then when I did go to Japan, I flew into Tokyo, got on a train, took a bus, another train, taxi. Got to my new place. There's a thunderstorm going on out there. I don't know the city I'm in. I've never been there before. I don't speak a word of the language. I don't even know how to use a phone in Japan. My parents don't know what city I'm in. But I go to my new apartment and the phone is ringing. The phone is ringing. I'll surprise somebody. I pick up, I was like, hello? And I expect someone to be surprised. Wrong number, whatever. And they're like, hello, this is so and so from the Worldwide Church of God. And we heard you was in Japan right now. I want to know that, you know, we have meetings such and such, down to such and such. I was like, there's a bad connection. I can't really hear what y' all saying, but click. Yeah, that happened. How they got. I couldn't do it. I don't know. Nobody knew where I was. I didn't know where I was.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, that is creepy.

[Glenn Washington]

Yep.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's like stalking you.

[Glenn Washington]

You gotta get that money some kind of way. You gotta have the systems in place.

[Lola Blanc]

How do you even do that before the Internet? It doesn't even compute in my brain.

[Glenn Washington]

This is what I will say. Let me leave you with this. When I first started Snap Judgment, if people don't know Snap Judgment is a public radio show, it's a stage show. We've done some television work this Is a decade ago. We want to be really. The Time award was multimedia. Want to be really crazy. Multimedia was built into the DNA of the launch. There was a magazine, which is really dumb. We didn't want anyone to see that part, but we had to do it for the grant, all this stuff. But when I was initially pulling together the initial business plan for it, our initial funder was a corporation for public broadcasting. And somebody said, well, this is a lot of stuff. We wanted to do some work and see if there's any other people who've kind of combined the same sort of multimedia thing into one unit that you've done before. And somebody came and said, well, there's this guy, Herbert W. Armstrong, who did something like this. I'm just like, as fast as you run as far as you run, you end up right back where you started. I almost lost my mind when someone came out here with this Herbert W. Armstrong stuff. Have you ever heard of a Herbert W. Armstrong? Yes, I heard of him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

I don't want to do that. But what's interesting about leaving in the first place is when you do leave. I grew up in this crazy organization. And when I was leaving, I felt stupid. I felt tricked, I felt angry. I felt like I wasted my youth, and I felt all those things. And I felt as well that the only thing I really knew anything about was how to run a cult, how to be in a culture. That's what I knew. Yeah, I didn't want to do that, but.

[Lola Blanc]

So why not? That's great.

[Glenn Washington]

Yeah, I didn't. There's enough clowns. I didn't want to do that, but that was where the whole storytelling evolved from. I realized I did learn something from those clowns. I was trying to find a positive takeaway from my time with them. The only thing that kept us in those seats all those many years listening to all that crazy stuff was a collective sense of story, a shared story. And so I know firsthand how important narrative is. A narrative can make you do the most ridiculous thing. A narrative can make you give away 30% of your income even though you're broke. A narrative can make you think that the world's going to end next week. And a narrative can make you come back to a church even though they said Jesus was going to be there last week and he didn't show up. It can make you come back again the next week after that and the next week after that. That narratives and a shared like story is maybe the most powerful thing of all. And so I think that they really did give me something. And we're all on this line. People oftentimes think all those culties are crazy. I wouldn't join no cult. I wouldn't do that. And maybe you wouldn't, Maybe you would. But honestly, I don't see them as those others that are. Oftentimes they're depicted up at the media or wherever. I know that they're regular people often. Sometimes they're really good people who have a desire to follow their convictions and that's sometimes twisted in turn by a charlatan in a certain way.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

And it's a shame to see someone with a good heart have that turned on them, have that very sense of search and seeking that they have turn on them. I think it's a real evil thing to do to somebody. I think it's a real. A wondrous type of evil.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Glenn Washington]

And instead of being, I guess, mad in the same way, I'm grateful that my background is such that I don't have to other those people. And hopefully if you meet someone where they are, you can lead them away from some of this stuff. And at least that was my thought. I would just say this. People want to make fun of religious cults or whatever, but we just had a national cult, you know, wanted to desecrate the capitol building, run around crazy doing this stuff. I would say that the cult I grew up in was far less pernicious than this national cult that we've just been experiencing. And nothing that we believed was anything more absurd than anything that came out of these people. As you said, tell somebody. Climate change doesn't exist and the immigrants all want to come and kill you. And this, this and that. What's more pernicious?

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

And who's really in a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Glenn Washington]

And it's scary to see the same techniques that were used in that cult be used in our national political dialogue as well. Because I've been gone for so long, I thought I just was in a small little thing off in the middle of nowhere. That's not how the world works. That's not how things really go down. Well, guess what?

[Lola Blanc]

It is.

[Glenn Washington]

Anyway, that's what I think about stuff.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Damn, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, we'll let you go soon, but where did you land on your beliefs? Can I ask you that?

[Glenn Washington]

I'm a born again agnostic. We see so little of what is out there. I think it's so ridiculous for me to start saying how the universe is structured. Our galaxy is just a speck on a Speck on a speck, right? And I'm talking about the way the world works and what God did and this, this and that. I'm gonna have to pass on all that and just say, can I treat people with respect when I'm here and hopefully have a positive impact. I know I got this. I got this life. I don't know about all the rest of that stuff. And so I can only do the best I can with this. I didn't think that was enough when I was coming up. Now I know that it's more than enough. It's more than I can possibly do anything. I mean, God, everybody wants. Sees themselves as a hero or this, this and that. I fall short of my own ideal of myself every single day. So I got enough to do without sitting in a basement talking about the end times.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, right. Or sitting in a basement talking about what you know isn't true because that can be equally religious.

[Glenn Washington]

Right? All the smugness of the atheistics, who I probably count myself more towards. I was very fortunate to live around the world. And I know this. What you believe is the least important thing about a person. What you do, that's what really kind of people believe. All kinds of stuff. Whatever you want to believe that we're going, you know, get on the UFOs and all this other kind of stuff. What are you doing? Whatever it is, you're compelled to improve this world. There is nothing that doesn't need to be done. You want to make more drinking water, we need that. You want to save cats, we need people to do that. You let kids. We need people to do that, whatever it is. And you will never run out of stuff to do that thing. So what are we arguing about?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Agreed?

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. Yeah. Amen. I feel like I'm in church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we're in church.

[Lola Blanc]

Preach.

[Glenn Washington]

If you turn with your handles. Would be pleased to. Page 33.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do we owe you all of our money? That's what I need.

[Lola Blanc]

30% coming right up.

[Glenn Washington]

That's what it says. You can read it yourself, brethren. You can read it yourself. I don't want to read it for you, but please. I like the kind that jingles, but love the kind that folds.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, man. This has been such a pleasure.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Thank you so much for talking to us, Clint.

[Glenn Washington]

Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate my community of culties. Whenever we can get together and share some laughs, I always appreciate it because we can speak in full speed to each other, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. That was great. I'm so Happy. We got him. Thank you, Glenn.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's so cool.

[Lola Blanc]

So cool. Megan. So what do you think? Would you join? I mean, you know, Glenn was born into it, so it's a bit of a different situation. Would you join the Worldwide Church of God, do you think?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I would not. It involves way too many things I don't like, like giving all my money to people that aren't me and.

[Lola Blanc]

But don't all cults make you do that though? I feel like that's just sort of a built in.

[Megan Elizabeth]

True, but they really took a lot.

[Lola Blanc]

They did. Although look at Hoyt. He gave them like $4 million or whatever.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know, I know, but Hoyt had money and Hoyt was completely exploited and so unfair. But to be like a family on a farm, giving your like money away is a whole different beast in my mind. So I don't know that that's fucked up. And I would be so mad if I was a kid and my parents were like giving money that we needed to eat to this religion.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, the caveat that I will offer to that is that many religions require a percentage of your income as tithing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

Mormonism requires 10% of your gross income as well as tithing. Such a strange setup to have 10% of it be for your own, like, fun. That's something I've never heard of, like ever. In theory. That's like kind of a fun idea. Like, oh, you know, you. You should devote a certain percentage of your income or your life to like leisure and, you know, self care or whatever. Like there's something interesting in that idea. Yep. But as a requirement, not so much. It's more like, oh, if you want to like carve out space in your life to make sure you're. It's not all about work. Yep. You know, but struggling families living in poverty, very, very different story completely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It made me really sad that they had to do that. And everybody, like you said, everybody we've talked to has been explo. Horrifically and it just breaks your heart.

[Lola Blanc]

So.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, didn't like. It didn't involve like wigs and magic and all that stuff. So I'm out.

[Lola Blanc]

No nudity, no outdoor rituals.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. So it's not for me. But what a story.

[Lola Blanc]

Indeed. Well, I guess we'll just leave it at that for this week, don't you think?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think that might be all we can do. Thank you for listening to Trust Me. Have a wonderful week and remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never.

[Lola Blanc]

Never, ever trust me. Bye. Bye.

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