REWIND: Lola's Mom - Mormon-Offshoot Cult

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation Episode: REWIND: Lola's Mom - Mormon-Offshoot Cult Release Date: June 18, 2025

In this poignant and eye-opening episode of "Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation," hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth revisit a deeply personal and harrowing story from their past. Titled "REWIND: Lola's Mom - Mormon-Offshoot Cult," this episode delves into the devastating experiences of Lola's mother, Christine Marie Katis, as she navigates her entanglement with a Mormon-offshoot cult led by Chad Ranieri.

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Introduction: Revisiting a Painful Past [00:57 – 02:34]

The episode opens with a brief recap of a favorite past episode from October 6, 2020, where Lola interviews her mother about their shared experiences in a self-proclaimed Mormon prophet’s cult. The hosts invite listeners to engage by sharing their own stories of cult involvement or experiences with manipulation through various contact methods, emphasizing the community-focused and supportive nature of the podcast.

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Weekly Cult News: The Allison Mack Scandal [06:37 – 11:40]

Before introducing the main guest, the hosts discuss recent cult-related news, specifically the legal troubles of Allison Mack, a former actress from the series "Smallville," who is accused of being involved in a sex trafficking cult led by Chad Ranieri. Megan Elizabeth explains, “[07:05] Lola Blanc: Wait. That was Keith, though, her leader. Right?” highlighting the confusion between cult leaders. They delve into the severity of her crimes, including racketeering and child pornography, and express skepticism about her remorse, with Megan stating, “[08:19] Megan Elizabeth: If we like a guy, should we just determine that he's probably a cult leader if we think he's nice?”

Christine Marie Katis provides background on Chad Ranieri, noting his charismatic yet sociopathic nature, and referencing the HBO docu-series "The Vow," which chronicles similar abusive cult dynamics. The discussion underscores how even reputable individuals can perpetrate heinous abuses under the guise of religious devotion.

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Introducing Christine Marie Katis: A Journey from Faith to Trafficking [14:31 – 34:32]

Lola Blanc warmly introduces her mother, Christine Marie Katis, highlighting her resilience and accomplishments, including her pursuit of a PhD in media psychology and founding a charity for trafficking survivors. Christine begins by sharing her early life and deep-rooted faith in Mormonism.

Christine’s Conversion and Faith: At timestamp [16:12], Christine recounts her teenage conversion to Mormonism, driven by her need for meaning and community after experiencing bullying and rejection. “I converted to Mormonism when I was a teenager. I would read the Book of Mormon in my bed under the covers with a flashlight,” she explains ([16:12]).

Christine details her meteoric rise within the church, becoming a missionary and marrying Lola’s father shortly after returning. She emphasizes her unwavering faith, stating, “[18:28] Megan Elizabeth: And you believed it, right? [18:28] Christine Marie Katis: I believed it so much. I have a true knowledge that this is the truth.”

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Excommunication and Vulnerability [20:43 – 22:07]

Christine describes her life-changing excommunication following a failed attempt to reconcile with her faith through a personal relationship. “[20:48] Christine Marie Katis: We get divorced. And I got excommunicated because when I was single, a divorced single mother, I was intimate with a man that I was in love with,” she shares candidly. This period of vulnerability made her susceptible to Chad Ranieri’s manipulative influence.

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Chad Ranieri: The Charismatic Manipulator [22:07 – 34:32]

Christine narrates how Chad approached her during her vulnerable state, initially presenting himself as an atheist trying to rekindle her faith, only to reveal himself as a self-proclaimed prophet. “[22:11] Christine Marie Katis: Side note. And yes, he tried to recruit me into his cult,” she explains. Chad’s deception was profound, leveraging her deep religious beliefs to manipulate and control her.

Key Moments:

• The Vision: Christine recounts a prophetic dream about her future husband, whom she believed was sent by God ([23:57]). This dream convinced her of Chad’s divine mission.
• Cult Recruitment: “[27:59] Christine Marie Katis: So these were the gold plates. They weren't dinner dishes, which would be pretty awesome…” Christine discusses the foundational beliefs propagated by Chad, intertwining doctrine with his personal control.
• Promises and Isolation: Chad promised Christine a significant role in preparing for the second coming of Christ, leading her to isolate herself from her children and support network ([33:41]).

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Abuse and Trafficking within the Cult [34:32 – 62:48]

Christine delves into the terrifying realities of her life under Chad’s control. She was subjected to severe psychological and physical abuse, including sex trafficking and constant surveillance. “[42:07] Christine Marie Katis: So I was a trafficking victim at the hands of an atheist, using my religious beliefs to open the door...”

Notable Experiences:

• Forced Isolation: Christine was separated from her children to serve Chad’s agenda, leading to intense emotional and psychological distress ([45:32]).
• Sexual Exploitation: She endured rape and exploitation, with Chad manipulating her faith to justify his actions ([46:17]).
• Attempted Escape and Revelation: A pivotal moment occurred when an ally, Jeff, revealed the truth about Chad, allowing Christine to break free ([51:17]). “[51:25] Megan Elizabeth: What is that like when...? [51:31] Christine Marie Katis: I collapsed to the floor on my knees, … thinking that everything was in vain because it was all just for manipulation.”

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Recovery and Reflections [62:48 – 79:58]

After escaping the cult, Christine faced years of trauma and self-blame until she sought therapy with cult expert Steve Hasson. This helped her understand the mechanics of cult influence and recognize that her vulnerability was exploited, not a reflection of her intelligence or character. “[63:26] Megan Elizabeth: I mean, he did it seamlessly… [63:28] Christine Marie Katis: He did.”

Key Learnings:

• Understanding Manipulation: Christine emphasizes the importance of recognizing undue influence and the pervasive nature of cult tactics across various aspects of life ([70:38]).
• Empowerment and Advocacy: Now, as a PhD student and charity founder, Christine dedicates herself to helping other survivors, advocating for awareness and support ([75:21]).

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Final Thoughts and Advice [73:06 – 80:01]

The hosts and Christine conclude with powerful insights on recognizing and escaping cults:

• Red Flags: Isolation, control over behavior and information, and demand for absolute loyalty are key indicators.
• Empathy and Compassion: Christine and Lola advocate for understanding and supporting cult survivors without judgment, stressing that anyone can fall prey to manipulative leaders.
• Personal Empowerment: Christine shares her journey of reclaiming her story and finding purpose post-trauma, encouraging listeners to seek help and rebuild their lives.

Notable Conclusion: “I learned that somebody can put on an incredible show of goodness, help the poor and needy, but the people behind it could be exploiting others,” Christine reflects ([74:49]).

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Episode Highlights: Notable Quotes

• Christine on Her Faith: “[18:28] I believed it so much. I have a true knowledge that this is the truth.”
• Understanding Cult Influence: “[72:55] They try to control your behavior. They'll try to control the information that you're getting.”
• Empowerment Post-Trauma: “[74:47] I learned that somebody can put on an incredible show of goodness... it's really all about them.”
• Advice to Listeners: “Follow your gut. Watch out for red flags, and never, ever trust me.”

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Conclusion

This episode of "Trust Me" serves as a compelling testament to the insidious nature of cults and the profound impact they can have on individuals and families. Through Christine Marie Katis’s harrowing story, listeners gain invaluable insights into the psychology of extreme belief and manipulation. The hosts’ compassionate and honest approach underscores the podcast’s mission to shed light on the fine line between devotion and delusion, offering hope and support to survivors seeking to reclaim their lives.

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Connect with Christine:

• Charity: Voices for Dignity
• Instagram: @katas

Follow Us:

• Lola Blanc: @olalola
• Megan Elizabeth: @meagongranger

Stay Connected: Subscribe to "Trust Me" on your favorite podcast platform to hear more survivor stories and expert insights each week.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits all advertisement segments and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions and personal narratives shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Christine Marie Katis]

This is exactly right.

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[Christine Marie Katis]

What do stuff they don't want you.

[Lola Blanc]

To know, buried bones and betrayal have in common. These hosts are all headed to the.

[Christine Marie Katis]

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[Lola Blanc]

You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes of Trust me from October 6, 2020 where we interview my mom about our experiences believing in a self proclaimed Mormon prophet. If you're new here, follow the show so you don't miss the July 30 return of trust Me on the exactly right network.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you have your own story of being in a cult or a high.

[Lola Blanc]

Control group, or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of power that you'd like to share, leave us a.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Message on our hotline number at 34786 Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

That's 34786 Trust 687878 or shoot us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

An email at trustmepodmail.com Trust me dude, you Trust me.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm like a smart person. I've never lied to you. I never have lied to you. Do you think that one person has all the answers? Don't. Welcome to Trust Me? No. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and abuse of power from two gals who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And we both grew up believing in cult leaders of some kind. Today we're going to talk to my mother. We're going to talk about our moment. Mormon offshoot cult leader we both believed in who claimed that he was the one true prophet, of course, translating the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and how we were chosen by God to help him in the last days. We will also talk about how he separated us from each other and how my mother was sex trafficked. Trigger warning. There will be some descriptions of sex trafficking. So if that's not something you want to hear about, skip this one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And if it is something you want to hear about, seek help. Just kidding.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan, why don't you tell us about your cult so people know who they're dealing with here.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, you know, Lola, my cult, super intense, couldn't cut my hair, couldn't wear pants. I got to go to school in really long jean skirts. We couldn't watch TV or movies. If I wanted to go to a movie, my parents would say, is that where you want to be when Jesus comes back to the earth?

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'd be like, ugh, no. So I'd like, sit at home and my friends would be at the movie and I'd be like, God, I hope Jesus comes back to the earth. And they all go to hell. People so mad and jealous. That's kind of mean, right? But whatever. It's just I was seven. That was kind of my cult. What's your cult like?

[Lola Blanc]

My cult is interesting because my cult is basically, well, it was a three person cult, but it has grown since. And we will talk more about that later, because our guest today is my mother, who was the reason that I believed in this cult leader. She was not the reason, but together we believed in this cult leader and it was an offshoot of Mormonism.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How big is it now?

[Lola Blanc]

Dozens. I have heard they're buying up property in an apartment complex in Utah and I think it's dozens.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's how it starts. That's how Scientology, like just started by buying, like a storage unit. I'm making that up. But the properties, you know, like, you just start small and then all of a sudden, you own, like, a city.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. You make people give you their money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And then you can buy as much as you want because you have so much of other people's money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So what is normal Mormonism like?

[Lola Blanc]

Great question, normal Mormonism? Well, it's Christianity, but there's an extra book called the Book of Mormon. And basically, you know, they believe in this guy who translated scriptures from an angel in the 1800s, and then the true church was finally brought back to earth. And it's just like you have to get married in the temple, and in order to go to the temple, you have to be temple worthy. So you tell your bishop everything. Kind of like Catholic confession a little bit. Oh. Like there they do baptism for the dead in the temple. You start doing that from age 12, I think. Yeah. You go and get baptized, and they have the names of a bunch of people who are dead, and you're basically, like, baptizing ghosts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh.

[Lola Blanc]

So they can choose to accept it or not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's insane.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, you know, sex is really a really bad sin. There's a lot of guilt in the religion because of that. But otherwise, it's like, you know, a lot of really nice people who just believe in this thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. So we are going to be doing a weekly segment on this podcast where we talk about the cultiest thing that happened to us each week, and we'll talk about what we experienced or participated in. That just felt a little bit extreme or a little culty. But this week in particular, there just happens to be some really culty stuff happening in the news.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Cult news. This week we have some pretty interesting cult news because we have Small Bill. Small Bill.

[Lola Blanc]

Small Bill. I love that show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Smallville actress Allison Mack.

[Lola Blanc]

Allison Mack, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She's in some serious trouble.

[Lola Blanc]

She's pleading guilty to. To. What are the charges?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like racketeering, sex trafficking, sex trafficking, child pornography. I still haven't wrapped my head around.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait. That was Keith, though, her leader. Right? Okay. If anyone doesn't know this is a sex. If you don't know. I don't know what you're doing and why you're listening to this podcast. There's a whole HBO docu series about it called the Vow. It is not out at the time of recording, so we're just going off news articles right now. But basically it was a sex cult in Albany, New York, in which they were branding women's bodies. And we'll probably do an entire episode on it later on. But it was headed by a man named Keith Ranieri. Who, incidentally, I knew growing up, and so did my mother. And we can talk more about that later.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What? Is he alluring in some way? Is he charismatic? Because I've been looking at pictures of him all day, wondering how he has all these women being his sex slaves, and they're all, like, heiresses and they're.

[Lola Blanc]

Super rich and they're beautiful.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why he's such a weirdo.

[Lola Blanc]

I was probably 9, so I don't know, or 10 or 11. But I really liked him at the time. He taught me the word, word thing that goes. One smart fellow, he felt smart. Two smart fellows, they both felt smart. And he would trick me and saying, smelled fart.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, wow.

[Lola Blanc]

This is my memory of Keith Ranieri, the sex cult leader. Should.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If we, like. If we like a guy, should we just determine that he's probably a cult leader if we think he's nice?

[Lola Blanc]

If anyone thinks he's charming or charismatic in any way, he's definitely a minimum sociopath, probably a cult leader.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you're talking to a man who you find charming, scream cult leader, mace him, and run.

[Lola Blanc]

Only like uncharismatic nerds for me who don't know how to talk to people. She pleaded guilty.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Pled.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Pleaded pled.

[Lola Blanc]

Guilty. Sobb sobbing in court. And some people think that she was faking it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, she's an actress on Small.

[Lola Blanc]

Bill, my favorite show. I personally have. I have differing beliefs on this because she was under the spell of this very charming, charismatic man.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I. I'm gonna take the opposite side of you. I think I'm totally anti her. I think she's so sick in the head. Just as sick as him.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, well, I don't know, man. I was watching some of those videos of her, and I just, like, everything that she was saying, like, it seemed like she believed it so fucking hard. And there. I mean, we will get into this, but I just think people. The whole thing about Cult is that people end up doing things that they would never, ever do in their normal life. And they totally, like, they compromise their own morals. They, like, become someone that they would never have imagined that they become. And it happens slowly over time because this person has such strong influence over them. So I buy that somebody would do horrible things or things that they would never do otherwise, and then, like, snap out of it and be like, oh, my God, what the fuck have I done with my life? I've been branding women's bodies.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She had slaves.

[Lola Blanc]

And having slaves. That part is a little extreme. That's crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She had slaves you know, like, I understand one of the main things we want to talk about is just the bias against people who are in cults or who. What, Whatever. Like, as being dumb, I guess is the like dumb.

[Lola Blanc]

Naive. Yeah. Gullible. Yeah. Which is not tr. Literally. Anyone can join a cult at any time. And the less you think you're susceptible, the more susceptible you are because you don't have your defenses up.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yep.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep. So I don't really know where I was going with that, but you guys, it was brilliant.

[Lola Blanc]

So just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's my point.

[Lola Blanc]

I believe you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But yeah, I think it's really, really crazy that she had slaves and that she was basically tricking women into sleeping with him.

[Lola Blanc]

It's true, it's true. But I just always think about the chain of power and the chain of influence and who was at the top of that. And in this case it was him. Although you think about Wild Wild Country. Did you watch Wild Wild Country?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of course.

[Lola Blanc]

And Sheila. Sheila in that scenario seems totally like the power.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She seems like a Sheila to me. She seems like a Sheila to me.

[Lola Blanc]

So maybe.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But she is. I mean, the fact that she's saying. She's sobbing and saying that it's wrong. Sheila never did that. Sheila's still saying, oh my God.

[Lola Blanc]

Sheila. Doctor. Guys, Sheila loves Sheila. Sheila's a badass.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So I guess we'll see how it goes. But she might be like indicted for 20 years.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that makes sense. That's fair. Yeah. So you know, she'll probably not serve all of it. I'm so curious to just hear the like, inner workings of that story. Especially knowing the connections that my family has to him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I can't wait to hear all about this.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, this isn't. This is not the cult that we were talking about today. But we just happen to know the guy from this cult, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're so lucky you know so many multiple cult leaders.

[Lola Blanc]

It's my thing. It's really my thing. Mom's thing. We'll talk to her about that. Okay. Should we introduce her?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely.

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[Christine Marie Katis]

Calling all true crime junkies this October, the hosts of Stuff They Don't Want yout to Know, Buried Bones and Betrayal are hitting the high seas on the first ever true crime voyage from award winning kid. Free Virgin Voyages book now at virginvoyages.com/true crime.

[Lola Blanc]

All right everybody, this is Christine, my mother. Hey. My mom is an amazing person. She has been through a lot and now she is getting her PhD in media psychology. She also runs a she formed. What do you call it? She formed, founded a charity. Is that the word?

[Christine Marie Katis]

That's it.

[Lola Blanc]

A charity to help survivors of trafficking and those sorts of things. She can describe it better.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I hope so.

[Lola Blanc]

Hi Mom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hi.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I'm happy to be here. Thank you for letting me come on and talk about this crazy stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

We are happy to have you. Let's talk about you.

[Christine Marie Katis]

All right.

[Lola Blanc]

The thing that is that I always want to tell people about your story is to give them context of the religion that you were in when you were preyed upon by this cult leader guy. Because I think for a lot of people who don't know about how cults work or don't understand religion or Mormonism or those fundamental beliefs, they think that you just met a guy and you were like, I'm gonna believe in this guy. He seems like someone I should believe in. And then just went with it because you were in love with them or whatever. These, like, stupid myths that are not true. So for me, the important place to start here is that you were Mormon. You were a very devout, regular Mormon. No cultiness. Well, depending on who you ask about Mormonism as a religion. And you have these belief systems ingrained in your psyche. So do you want to tell me about that?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right. I converted to Mormonism when I was a teenager. I would read the Book of Mormon in my bed under the covers with a flashlight. There were strict rules against me investigating.

[Lola Blanc]

The church in my house, which happened because of missionaries. Right, right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Because missionaries came over and they were having a big influence on me. My parents thought they were losing me to a cult, so they, you know, didn't want that and said no.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What was drawing you towards that?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Interesting question. I was the. I was bullied when I was a child. I was rejected by my peers. I mean, my grandfather was a Methodist minister, and I always wondered, why don't we ever go to church? So it was sort of like a job to him. And I craved more. I craved a sense of meaning because I wasn't getting it from being in some popular clique or something. And I started looking for religion, and in high school, and I found one. I was baptized on my 18th birthday because my parents would not allow me to join the church. So the day that I turned 18, I drove to a lake where I met the missionaries and a few members of the church, and I got baptized in the freezing cold month of April in Michigan. I totally forgot that.

[Lola Blanc]

I just assumed it was an indoor baptismal font. You must have been very dedicated.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That is a wild 18th birthday for real.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And that was so rebellious.

[Lola Blanc]

Opposite of my 18th birthday.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, that is rebellious.

[Christine Marie Katis]

That was so rebellious. You know, at any rate, it made me very happy. It was the happiest I had ever been. I ended up going to Brigham Young University. I went and became a missionary. I broke records on my mission. I came off my mission to a man who had been waiting for me, which is the father of Lola, and we were married three weeks later. As soon as I got off my mission, we were married and we lived the good, devout LDS life.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you believed it, right?

[Christine Marie Katis]

I believed it so much. I would say for me, it's not even a matter of faith anymore. I have a true knowledge that this is the truth. I knew it beyond the shadow of a doubt, as they all do.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, well, not all of them, but. So the interesting thing for me, and what I remember from my childhood, is seeing meaning in seeing religious meaning, or like, divine meaning in coincidences and dreams. You and dad were married kind of because of a dream, weren't you?

[Christine Marie Katis]

That's true. I had a dream when I was on my mission, and I thought it indicated who I was to marry. And we were walking over some rocks on a pier, and this man reached his hand out and helped me cross this scary part. And when I got off my mission, I didn't think that my husband, the man I ended up marrying, I didn't think he was the one. But when we went on this walk on the pier and he reached his hand, you know, it reminded me of that dream.

[Lola Blanc]

And it was a sign.

[Christine Marie Katis]

It was a sign. And there were many signs to me. When I was a missionary, I prayed about where to go to find people that were looking for the message that I was going to share. And I would get, like I called it spiritual radar and just kind of find the house based on intuition. And a remarkable number of times when we would knock on that door, there would be somebody who said, hey, I was just praying that God would show me the truth. And you showed up. I mean, things like that happened over and over and over and over when I was in that mindset. And I took all that to mean that, you know, there really is a man in the sky who's kind of pulling the puppet strings and helping me know where to go and what to do. And if I'm really in tune, I can make miracles happen. Almost like if I pray it, it's going to happen. Unless it's not God's will.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. So fast forward to you and dad are divorced, right?

[Christine Marie Katis]

We get divorced. And I got excommunicated because when I was single, a divorced single mother, I was intimate with a man that I was in love with, who was also.

[Lola Blanc]

Single, which is very unusual, I have heard.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And so I was, you know, cast away forever.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How did they find out?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Well, I was honest. And I felt so guilty about it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The first mistake can't be honest.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Oh, I confessed. And then when I, you know, saw him again, I sinned again.

[Lola Blanc]

I've been there. Go, Mom.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Then it, you know, I mean, he was my boyfriend. And so I became what they called a habitual offender.

[Lola Blanc]

Guilty.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Oh, my gosh. And I got excommunicated. And that was it. No more of that stuff. I was going to turn my life back around. I ended up. During the time that I was excommunicated, by the way, I met Keith Ranieri.

[Lola Blanc]

Side note, Founder of nxivm, the sex cult.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Side note. And yes, he tried to recruit me into his cult. You know, we can get to that later. But I was, you know, stuck because I really loved Mormonism, to be fair, it made me happy. It gave me meaning. There was purpose in my life. There was community. I understood why I was on the earth, where I would be going after this life. I had a plan. Everything made sense. I just needed a husband, a new husband. Okay, now here's the catch. So the founder of Mormonism had a vision.

[Lola Blanc]

Joseph Smith.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Joseph Smith. Some people call it a dream. Depending on which document you're reading, dreams are believed to be a potential source of God speaking to you, that he can share messages through dreams, visions and visions, right? I prayed about who Mr. Right was. Since I divorced Mr. Wrong, who would this man be that I would be with for time and all eternity? And in answer to that dream, that very night, I had a profound dream. Visiony thing. And I saw this man. And I remember his face perfectly because he looked like a cross between my ex boyfriend, David and Brendan Fraser.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I loved Brendan Fraser back in the day.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I still love Brendan Fraser.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I was like, thank you, heavenly father.

[Lola Blanc]

That's my man. Yeah, that's right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No disagreement, thank God.

[Christine Marie Katis]

So some of my single friends, single women, we would go to Mormon singles dances, and I told them what my Mr. Right looked like, so they would be on the lookout. And my girlfriend had a dream that her Mr. Right, she would meet him and he would be wearing a baseball cap. So we were both looking, you know, using these signs to try to find, you know, information about the other ones possible, mate. So I go. So I moved to Utah. I had a lot going on. I was succeeding. I had a project that got funded when I lived in California, and I was so excited about it, and it required me to move to Utah. And my very first Mormon singles dance that I went to after moving to Utah was at Wheeler Farm. And as I'm looking out onto the dance floor, who do I see?

[Lola Blanc]

Brendan Fraser.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Man, that looked like a cross between my ex boyfriend David and Brendan Fraser.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So here's the important question. What kind of dancing are you looking at? While you're like, are they.

[Lola Blanc]

What are they doing?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Oh, well, it would be the Dougie.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Are they grind dancing?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Oh, no, very wholesome dancing. Even wholesome music. But it was pop music or dance music.

[Lola Blanc]

At Mormon dances, you have to keep. Is this true of adults too? You have to keep a Bible and a Book of Mormons space between you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, okay, that's very specific.

[Lola Blanc]

All right, so you're not too saucy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you see this guy dancing with the Mormon book space between him and someone.

[Christine Marie Katis]

No, he was dancing with elderly ladies.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's classic charmer. Okay.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, you know, he wasn't dancing with all the hot girls. He was dancing with, you know, the 83 year old women. And I went, look, there he is. And he's doing something that I approve of and he's so awesome. What kind of a man would go for the elderly women to make sure they feel good, especially when he's, you know, handsome? And I just thought, oh, my goodness. And I thought it was proof that there really was a God because he gave me the dream and it manifest in the flesh. So because of that, he had a lot more power and influence over me than if I had just met somebody.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I totally get that.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I thought there was meaning to this and it was eternal.

[Lola Blanc]

And you think God literally gave you a sign about this person? Of course there's meaning there. That there wouldn't be.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right. And then I happen to be a Book of Mormon fanatic. I even wrote a book about the Book of Mormon. I read the Book of Mormon non stop, you know, dozens of times from COVID to cover. So the Book of Mormon has another part to it. This is what all Mormons believe, that there's a part when Joseph Smith originally translated the gold plates, which is where the Book of Mormon came from. You know, the Mormons believe.

[Lola Blanc]

And I'm going to translate it as in quotation marks here, because he translated them from an angel who nobody ever saw in a hat. That the angel wasn't in the hat? No, the angel wasn't in the hat, but the angel provided him the hat or something. Anyway, it came from a fucking angel and he did it in a hat. And this is the translation that's going on here. This is not coming from like a physical text that exists. Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola and her mother are using quotation marks which you guys can't see.

[Christine Marie Katis]

But okay, so supposedly, supposedly there were gold plates because gold does not rust. And if you look in, you know, archaeological museums or whatever, you can find that they did actually used to keep Records by engraving them on metal plates. All right, so these were the gold plates. They weren't dinner dishes, which would be pretty awesome, but it was like leafs, you know, like book leafs. So I believe that Joseph Smith translated these ancient words and that's what became the Book of Mormon, which I loved. And it inspired me and it inspired, you know, millions of people. Well, there is a belief right from the Book of Mormon that when Joseph Smith translated these plates, he did not translate them all. There was a part that was left sealed until the last days, right before the second coming of Christ, that in the last days, one mighty and strong would appear.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, that's not setting up anything for trouble.

[Christine Marie Katis]

No, not at all.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And those who place would come back on the scene. Enter the man from my dream. Not the man of my dreams, but the man from my dream.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Okay. Keep in mind this man is not somebody that I would have ever been interested in. Not my type, sort of a loser in life, you know. I mean, that's true.

[Lola Blanc]

I remember when mom was single and I was a kid, she was dating hell of millionaires.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Interesting.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And so when was young, I. When I met him, though, because of this, you know, this magical thing around meeting him, you know, he wanted to. He wanted to sleep with me, but I wouldn't because I'd already went down that road. I was excommunicated. I made my way back. I paid the price. It was like psychologically abusive to go through the repentance process and make it back where you can be rebaptized. And I made it, and I was, like, overjoyed. And I thought, wow, I'm one of the few people that made it back. Mostly when people are excommunicated, they just, you know, move on with life. But I loved my church. I loved my Book of Mormon. And here was this man, he was an atheist. He presented me as an atheist at first, and I wasn't interested in him. He was trying hardcore to get me to sleep with him or to get me to be interested in him, but I wasn't interested. So he changed his plan. And one night he says, you know, I'm actually not an atheist. I mean, we would go back and forth. I was trying to get him to stop being an atheist because he once was a Mormon. So now we have an ex Mormon, anti Mormon, in my opinion, sociopath. Okay. But I didn't know it at the time, and I'm trying to restore his faith. I thought, heavenly Father gave me this challenge. This is my future husband and I need to Bring him back to the fold. In the meantime, he's trying to pull me out of the church so I'll sleep with him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my goodness.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Okay, so we have a battle going on, and he couldn't do it. He later Peter told me that I was the first woman in his life whose faith he could not break. So he changes his story, and suddenly he says, christine, I have to tell you the truth. I'm really not an atheist. It was a test. It was just a test to see if I could break your faith like every other woman. And because I could not break your faith, I am allowed to tell you the truth. I. I have translated the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon in preparation for the second coming of Christ.

[Lola Blanc]

And by the way, tests are a huge thing in Mormonism.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, right.

[Lola Blanc]

Tests from God. Like proving your worthiness, proving your righteousness.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, right. And I didn't believe in him overnight. And there were other believers, more than three. By the way, she only interacted with three.

[Lola Blanc]

I guess my experience of it was three.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, right. But there were more. But nonetheless, it was a small group. But so I get sucked in, and I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, this is the new Joseph Smith. That must make me the new Emma, his wife. You know, I mean, because this man wanted to take me as his wife. So here we've got the new prophet. He even sent me eight chapters of the translation of these new sealed portion scriptures. And it felt no different to me than when I believed in the Book of Mormon the first time. It was a big leap of faith to go from only believing the Bible to believing the Book of Mormon as a teenager. So it just didn't seem that weird that the sealed portion would be coming forward. It was all a leap of faith. Which is ironic, because after all this was done, and one of the criticisms that I had from people who are devout Mormons was, how could you ever have fallen for that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I fell for the people who baptized ghosts.

[Christine Marie Katis]

You can believe in the Book of Mormon, but in the Book of Mormon it says in the last days, the sealed portion will come forward.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

It's right there. But, you know, I should have known better somehow. So at any rate, what happened is he tells me that we need to meet in Las Vegas. I am to tell no one that we are to meet. He is a prophet. He tells me that I had that dream because I was sent to him to be his help meet in translating the SO portion, and that I passed all these tests and I was going to Be the prophet of the wife. I mean, the wife of the prophet.

[Lola Blanc]

That's a much cooler title. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, wow.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And that's what I secretly wish the other title. No. So I thought, wow, that's what happens when you stick it out. You get rebaptized. You know, you get. You know, I felt like being rebaptized. All my sins had been washed away. And now all these manifestations and miracles are happening in my head. And, okay, one step at a time, I start really believing in him. And then I find myself in Las Vegas about to get married to this man. Not legally married. He said it would be like the prophets of old, like Malachi took Anna. I mean, once you knew a person, which means had sex with them, you know, in the Bible it would say, and he knew her. Right? Okay, so that was.

[Lola Blanc]

I started using that term to describe my love. We totally knew each other last night.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And so I sat there thinking it out, thinking I saw him in a dream.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, that would. Fuck. I mean, I don't know if we can say that word, but that would screw me up hardcore if I saw him in a dream.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, okay, I saw him in a dream. I got rebaptized. The sealed portion chapters seemed of the same spirit as the Book of Mormon. And I look him in the eyes and I say, promise me you're not deceiving me just so you can sleep with me. And he said, I wish I was deceiving you. My calling has been so difficult and so lonely. Oh, my dear Christine, how I wish that this. That I didn't have this yoke upon me. And he went on and on about, okay, and then I knew him. Yep. So here I'm thinking I'm his wife now. And I said, that's it, you know, there's no, like, ceremony. And he was like, that was the ceremony. Okay. So he lets me think I am his eternal wife and the prophets help me and that I would be helping to restore polygamy to the world even.

[Lola Blanc]

And early Mormons believed in polygamy, and then they abolished it when the government said that they couldn't do it anymore.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right.

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[Christine Marie Katis]

Calling all True Crime Junkies this October, the Hosts of Stuff They Don't Want yout to Know, Buried Bones and Betrayal are hitting the high seas on the first ever true crime voyage from award winning kid. Free Virgin Voyages book [e-mail] truecrime now guess what? Now I'm in a pickle because if he's not a prophet, I just slept with somebody that I wasn't married to and I would get excommunicated again and I would never be able to get back into the church. Yeah, so now my critical thinking switched a million little switches switched off so that I could see everything that supported the fact that he really was a prophet. Because this was the double bind that I was in. If he was a prophet then I was on the right path and I would be going to the celestial kingdom, the highest kingdom where I could be with my Children forever. If he was not a prophet and I just slept with him, I would certainly lose my soul. So I was invested in him being a prophet. Now, in fundamental Mormon beliefs, a prophet is not allowed to lead you astray. The Lord will kill them, take their lives before they let you lead them astray, before he will allow them to lead you astray. So this is a fail safe for prophets because they can lead you astray, but you think they can't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they're like, I'm not dead, so I'm not lying.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right. I'm telling you the truth here. So I follow my prophet's words. Now, keep in mind, and I'm not in love with this guy, but I'm honored because, you know, I am the wife of the prophet. I am the secret wife of the prophet. Well, then I have to start sacrificing because the prophet's wife has to prove that she's more worthy than anybody else. So she has to make bigger sacrifices. So first comes the money. Then comes the dispossession of all the things that I cherished. And of course, the money from that also went to him. He said it went into a fund to help the poor and needy. I thought I was. And you did, too. I mean, we were.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. So I feel like I will now talk about how I came to work.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

In.

[Christine Marie Katis]

We've been calling Adam.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no, no, no, no. I want to call him something douchier. I like Chad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, chad.

[Lola Blanc]

I am 12. 12. Right. And I meet this guy and I actually, I'm like, I'm so hazy now on how I. True. On how I felt about him, but I feel like I didn't like him at first. And then he bought me snacks, and then I liked him, which is how you win me. Classic theme in my life.

[Christine Marie Katis]

You were impressed with the fruit snacks.

[Lola Blanc]

I was impressed with. Well, gusher specifically.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right, right. That's what it was.

[Lola Blanc]

But I didn't know much about him. I just knew my mom was spending more time with him. And she had, you know, she was dating guys. She was very well liked among the fellas. So I don't think I thought anything particularly unusual was happening. And one day I was snooping around, hacking her computer.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Hacking? Hacking.

[Lola Blanc]

I was not hacking in your computer.

[Christine Marie Katis]

She was hacking.

[Lola Blanc]

I was being a snoop. I wanted to see what was going on in mom's life. And I found these letters that he had written to her. And I wish I could remember specifically what they said, but basically saying, like, what God wants her to do. And basically implying that he is her prophet. And I'm 12 and I'm Mormon and I don't know what any of this means. I just think, oh, wow, Chad's a prophet. Wow. So then I believed in him and he found out that I believed in him, and so then I was in on it too. And he had me make. I was starting to make a website. I believe it was an Angelfire website for his non existent charity that he had made up where all the money from the things my mom sold was going to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And this was. This is gonna be called Angel Fire. Is that.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no. Do you know what angel is? Oh, my God. Where are you really? In 1999, she was very savvy, very.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Tech savvy for a little.

[Lola Blanc]

Angel Fire was like. Like the early Internet version of like, what's a website? Yeah, like WordPress or something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, okay.

[Lola Blanc]

It was real dorky. They were like lots of like cyber doll websites and lots of fan sites on Angelfire.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

You were not cool in the early 2000s.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I was not.

[Lola Blanc]

It was a really dorky way to make a website. And I started making a website for his stupid non existent charity.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I wasn't allowed to have computers or.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, too bad. So you're like, n too.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm in. Yeah.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And she's volunteering.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And. And I think that I'm chosen too, because that's. I'm 12. And how cool did I feel thinking that, like, I was helping usher in the last days of the second coming of Jesus Christ? Like, oh my goodness, I'm such a special girl. There's nobody else who knows about this except for me and my mom.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And he told me the reason I was so special was because I had her. She was the real Jews here. And she sang to him and he was like, she's going to be a star and everything else. So. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Casino. Yeah. And then. Well, so the yard sale, right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

We sold stuff to help the poor and needy to go into this fund. And then he told me I needed to be separated from my children because being the prophet's wife, helping with the translation would put me in a very dangerous situation. And for their own safety, my children needed four a time being to be away from me. And I needed to go and live among the poor and needy. So I ended up in a resident hotel. The children ended up in different places. You know, like the boys went to their fathers and she went to a friend of.

[Lola Blanc]

Stayed at the house of a Family nearby. Yeah.

[Christine Marie Katis]

And I. I was quite a sheltered person growing up. Even though we weren't religious, I had a very strict father as well and came from a small town. Then I got married and lived the Mormon life. Never. I was not sophisticated. So now I'm living in a resident hotel in downtown Salt Lake, which is a place where people go when they first get out of prison. Okay, so they were. There were 80 occupants and 78 of them were men, or 77. Then there was a woman who was in a wheelchair and a woman who was like 87. And then there was me. So I was. At that time, I had been doing pageants and staying in shape and. And running my business, but I was like a lamb in a slaughter. So once my money ran out, the prophet decides that I need to pass some new tests. I need to descend below all things because I was too proud. And how dare I think positive things about myself. I needed to be humbled. And the word that he used in writing was that I needed to be abased before men. Do you know the word abased? Okay, so one step at a time, and I'll spare you the gory details, but I'm in this scary place. I'm being raped. I was robbed a couple of times. I was beaten. I was physically harmed to the point where I needed to get medical attention. And I was told that there were three men who were watching me at all times. And if I ever left and did not come back, then I would run the risk of losing my life, never being with my children again. He threatened their eternity. And so I'm in this situation. I'm not allowed to tell anybody. I'm not allowed to get therapy because I can't tell anybody that these are the. That I need to be purged in such a violent manner. And I'm saying, surely he can't, you know, he can't know what's going on. I need to tell him what's going on. He wouldn't allow me to be here. In fact, he wrote me letters. He wrote me a letter after I described some of the heartache and suffering that I was going through. And he said, oh, my dear sister, oh, my heart cries for you. I wish the mountains would fall down upon. Bury the men that are hurting you. And, you know, being very colorful in how upset he is that I'm being harmed and who are my children anyway? Because he wanted all things that brought me joy to be out of my life. And my children were my life. I was even young mother of the year. At one point. And the business that I had that took me to Utah revolved all around family enrichment. My life was about my children. So he wanted my children away from me so that I could dedicate everything to him. And, you know, I think he was jealous of my children. But this is a man who couldn't stick to one thought for a long time. And what happened is I started becoming sexually exploited, and he was. He was the beneficiary. Now, keep in mind, I never had. I never took money for sex. I never was paid. I never handled any transactions. They call it human trafficking. Okay. And he had. He ended up in prison, in jail for something else. So he had other people handling me. And then I get a revelation from jail. One of the believers, I'll call her Sister.

[Lola Blanc]

Jackie.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Well, no. Yes, Sister Debbie. Okay, okay, okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Is Jackie someone Okay. Anyway, Debbie. Yeah.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Okay. Yeah. So Sister Debbie, I thought was an elderly lady I had always heard about. Sister Debbie's going to help with this and help with that. And I get this revelation sent to me that says that Chad would be marrying, legally marrying Sister Debbie, and that I needed to be. I needed to continue serving in the manner that was required to provide financial support because of the many men that desired me. That my job was to provide this financial support and service to Chad and his new wife, Debbie, and that if I obeyed all of his commandments, then I would be a mother in heaven. So now I was demoted from from first wife to slave wife. And in the same revelation, Sister Debbie was promised that they would have children together, that they would be known throughout the world for their love for one another. But I had to remain a secret. So at this point, you know, I'm so damaged. I have layers and layers of trauma. I'm so confused. But my brain does not want to believe that my prophet had anything to do with the harm that was befalling me. I write letters to him and to Sister Debbie just to make sure that they know that my life was hanging by a thread. I thought about killing myself every single hour. I thought. Thought there was no other way out. And then he blew out the last candle flicker of hope that I had with his influence and power over me. He was my ecclesiastical power. He was like the Pope to me, even beyond the Pope, because I believed a prophet. All Mormons believe their prophets speak directly to God. He is the one that put me in that situation. He's the one that should have known and is not getting me out of that situation. He said, you are exactly where you need to Be. And he said, if you are not happy serving in the way that you have been asked to serve, then all your sacrifices have been in vain. And that was it. So now I'm going to hell anyway. I passed all these tests. I'm going to hell anyway. My money's gone. My dreams are gone. I had a big project that God funded. Gone. My children are gone. Certain precious things I parted with because of him. And I had a wedding dress for when I did find Mr. Right that I would never marry, that I would never wear. I had to sell that. I had a dress I designed myself that I wore in pageants that was just amazing. And I had to sell that. I had to sell things that I was attached to. And I was left there with nothing. He took every last thing that a woman holds near and dear to her heart. There was nothing left for me to do but die.

[Lola Blanc]

So meanwhile, I am living with this family from church who has no idea what's going on.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I don't.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you remember what we told them about why I was there? I don't remember what we told them, but they just knew I wasn't living with my mom. And I am talking to my mom on the phone periodically, but I don't know exactly what's going on, but I just hear that it's, like, not good over there. Something is going on. She's not having a good time. But I think, like, okay, it's just a test. God is just testing her. God tests people. That's what he does. When you're chosen, you know, he's gonna test you and make your life really, really hard so that you can experience all the glories of heaven. And I was, like, lonely and sad without my mom. But I just would comfort myself by saying, well, I'm chosen by God. So the second Coming is coming soon. Jesus is gonna come soon, and then everything's gonna be amazing. Like, I am chosen. I am so special. These kids at school might not, you know, like me that much, or I might not have any friends, but they'll see one day when they see that I was the kid who ushered in the second coming of Christ.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love that Weird Al song where he's like, and I'll be laughing my head off when you're burning in hell.

[Lola Blanc]

Amish paradise. Weird Al was one of my favorite artists at this time. Side note.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And I visited her once, and it was so depressing and scary. The bathroom. We had to go to the bathroom in the hallway. There were all these, like, scary men there. There were, like, stalkers throwing, like, trying to barge in. We had to call the cops one night because this man was trying to force his way in. Anyway, it was just a really scary situation. And my mom is this. Even at that age, I was aware that, like, my mom exuded this. This youthfulness and this, like, innocence. And I, like, it was just so scary to see her in this place. But I thought that that was God's will and that was God testing her. And that was what needed to happen so that we could help Jesus come back. In retrospect, not sure how they were supposed to be related. Made sense at the time.

[Christine Marie Katis]

So the prophet would send men from prison to come and be served by me when they got out of prison. Okay, I had a job to do. And one man who came ended up crying. I showed him pictures of my children, and I showed him, you know, what my prior dreams were before I got involved in the work. And he just started crying. I mean, this is an ex con, right? He's crying, he's bawling, sobbing, convulsing tears. And I didn't understand why. I mean, he laid his head on my lap and was bawling like a baby. And he left. And I was terrified because I was so on the verge of killing myself that I was relieved when someone was there because I knew I would at least make it through the next hour if somebody was with me. And I did make a couple of attempts towards suicide. And I wrote to Ms. Debbie, Sister Debbie, and I said, please, if you and Chad are. Sometimes I wonder if you're deceiving me just for entertainment or money, you know, please tell me the truth. My life is hanging by a thread. And, you know, woman to woman, women expect other women to symbiotically care for one another or to, you know, step in if they see another woman being harmed. And that's what I expected. And she wrote back and said, oh, we would never deceive you. Not for money, not for entertainment or any other purpose. I can't even imagine the horrible experiences that you must have had with people to even assume such a thing.

[Lola Blanc]

She's the Sheila. You haven't seen Wild country, so you don't know what that means.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I have seen it. And Sheila.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, you have seen Wild Country.

[Christine Marie Katis]

We would never do that to you. There were other believers. I reached out to them, you know, by email. I was crying out. I even reached out during this time to Keith Ranieri from nxivm.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, was quoted in an article talking about her cult leader Right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

For a while, it was the battle of the cult leaders. You know, was I gonna go with Keith or was I going to go with Chad? And they both knew about each other. And anyway, so my NXIVM story is amazing, too, but that's a story for another day. So this guy starts crying and he leaves. And then I was afraid. And then I was alone again. And I remember I would lay on my little cot in this room that was like a cell. And it was so hot, like being in an attic because there was no air conditioning and there were cockroaches. I want. Don't picture this like a hotel room. I'm laying there and I can't even feel my body. It just felt like wood. I mean, my trauma was really seriously deep. And in the afternoon, he comes back and he brings Sister Debbie with him, who happens to not be an old lady, by the way, he brings Sister Debbie with him and they come in and they confess. Chad is not a prophet. We're not believers. They pretended they were believers. Okay? Chad is an atheist. We're atheists. We're sorry we helped him deceive you and exploit you. But he told us that if we told you the truth, that you would die. And this person, who. This young man, his name was Jeff, was a hero. I mean, I would have died within the week had he not come clean.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What is that like when. I mean, can your brain process it immediately or how long does it take?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Thank you for asking that question. And I remember collapsing to the floor on my knees, you know, leaning forward, rocking back and forth, and watching my life pass before my eyes, thinking that everything that I had gone through, everything that I had lost, everything that I had almost lost, including my life, was in vain. It was for someone sadistic entertainment. And to get money for his fiance to go shopping. I remember wailing on that floor when they're in there, wailing, just wailing. And I said to her, I screamed, you know, I begged you for the truth. You know. Her response was, I thought you would die if I told you the truth. And that's kind of a hard thing for me to buy because I was about to die from suicide, if not from one of the men.

[Lola Blanc]

And she knew that. I mean, you were writing them and saying, like, why is this happening to me? Why would God want these horrible things? Like, she fucking knew.

[Christine Marie Katis]

She did know. She was an accomplice. Full blown accomplice. She was a sheila. And then Jeff was a hero. And he couldn't. He would have come back sooner, but he had to drag her there. She even came to the hotel and picked up money, you know, so I'm a trafficking victim at the hands of an atheist, using my religious beliefs to open the door to get me to trust, to get me into a situation where. Where I am then out of control.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, he did it seamlessly.

[Christine Marie Katis]

He did. Afterwards, I needed. I should have been in a hospital, you know, like a rehab or something. I was in so much distress. I made a police report, and the police did not even offer me a victim's advocate because they said, well, it was a fraud. But you believed him. That's so awful. And, you know, now they understand things better. They wouldn't respond like that now. But I ended up getting therapy, getting diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder and dealing it with. Dealing with it for years and years. And then I went on a mission, a different kind of mission, a mission of my own to discover what happened to my brain. How did I go from being an entrepreneur, a published author, young mother of the year, a respected and smart, I thought, person in my community, to being the lowliest of the low with nothing left. Even my hopes and dreams were gone. But when I recovered my children, that was the redeeming factor when all this happened, and I realized that all this was in vain. And it was. I mean, the level of cruelty was just world record to me. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Did you confront him? Were you able to get at least that?

[Christine Marie Katis]

I did it in writing. I did it in writing and sent it to him in jail. And I put all this evidence in, at any rate. But what I learned. It took me about a decade. What I learned is that I needed to stop blaming myself. I blamed myself for years because everybody else did, too. And I thought I had something seriously wrong with my brain. I really thought that I had mental illness, that I could have fallen for that. And I tried to get tested to see what is my brain damage, what is wrong with me, that I fell for that. And it wasn't until I got therapy from a cult expert named Steve Hasson, and I read his book that I realized that people fall into these groups. They get attracted into these groups. I mean, thousands and thousands of people were in situations like me. It wasn't just me. I thought nobody else would ever fall for this. Nobody would have something like this happen to them. But now that I'm in the world of helping cult survivors, dozens, hundreds, thousands of women have been sexually exploited by their cult leaders, and nobody joins a cult. People get involved in movements that they sincerely believe are true. Are Going to make a difference in the world. And the same with Alice and Mack. I err on the side of compassion for Alice and Mack because there is a process by which people get influence. It's called undue influence. Because, you know, the person that has so much power, access to God, who can argue with that? Who can argue with the smartest man in the world? It's never the woman. That's right. You know, or the follower. It's always the leader. He always has some sort of way to get information that nobody can question. So the unquestionable guru takes advantage of that power and step by step creates one sacrifice after another after another until you're so invested, you don't want to believe that this person is evil. This is in vain. So when I learned it was all false, although it was traumatic, suddenly things made sense. Suddenly I knew I could round up my children and I knew it wasn't God telling me I wasn't worthy to raise my beautiful, incredible children. It was, you know, dare I say it? I mean, I've often wondered if he's a psychopath.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, he's obviously a psychopath. Like, why is there even a question for sure? I mean, sure, I am not his medical professional. I cannot legally, technically diagnose him with sociopathy. It is my strong opinion that he's a psychopath. I do not believe he's a person who has exhibited empathetic qualities personally. This seems like a good time to add in a disclaimer about Chad's perspective here. Okay, it's been a rollercoaster. In an interview with the with the Utah newspaper in 2007, Chad told a reporter that my mom projected divine status onto him and she convinced herself that he was a prophet and he just ran with it. He said that she volunteered the money for him. In the same article, he did admit, though, to deceiving her religiously and playing on her religious beliefs. And he said he was sorry about doing that. And then later he said that he actually had to tell the reporter that he made the sealed portion up for legal reasons, but he really did translate it from an angel and he really was a prophet, but still claimed that my mom was making up her part and presumably was saying that all the emails she had from him were forged, I guess. And then in a 2017 podcast, he flip flopped again and said, JK, he really did make the sealed portion up. It was all a lie to get people to stop believing in the Book of Mormon. And now his platform has moved on to more political oriented Beliefs. But at every stage, he's maintained that my mom is just a vengeful ex lover. Though of course a handful of other ex followers have spoken out about him, including Matt. And I imagine there will be more to come. But. So if Chad has anything to add to this conversation, we invite him to submit a statement in response to this episode. We will verbally state it on the episode. That will be interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is he still working his program?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Oh, as a matter of fact, he just last week, speaking of cult news, was found guilty of fraud and racketeering.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Christine Marie Katis]

For the very same stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Shocking. No, I mean, like it's. When you hear your story, it sounds like there's. It's just this isolated incident that he just decided to prey on this poor woman. But he preyed on so many people.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Including men.

[Lola Blanc]

Still does it.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Including men. And he goes after people with money. And that's. That's one of the myths about cults. They think that the public tends to think that only these lost teenagers or young adults that have a big hole in their life are looking for something, get attracted to cults. And while they might have a special vulnerability, everybody is vulnerable because everybody has something they love. If you love something, that's your vulnerability. If you have a dream for something, that's your vulnerability. Everybody has vulnerabilities. And if you have a master manipulator, he will hone in on those. So all of those people listening that say, I'm too smart for this, Nobody can get me. You're a sitting duck.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Watch your back, dude. Right, right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

It might be a chick too, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, I know incredibly successful screenwriters who've joined cult. There are, you know, business. I mean, look at the. Look at nec.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely. I mean, just sitting here thinking about it, A bad relationship is almost like joining a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

You can have that same thought.

[Christine Marie Katis]

You can have a cult of two.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, you can.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, you know, some of the smartest people in the world, the most beautiful, they're in crazy, abusive relationships all the time.

[Lola Blanc]

Just having that power over somebody.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, exactly. It can happen to everybody. There are dynamics. Now I understand it, you know, now I'm finishing my PhD in psychology and I understand the pressures of social pressure and the power of social proof and influence in small groups and critical thinking and loss aversion, all these crazy things. But that's what happens. It can happen in a relationship of two. It can happen in a family. It can happen in a workplace. There are political cults, there are self help cults and, and if you suspect that you're in a cult, you'll have some signs. You know, they'll try to control your behavior. They'll try to control the information that you're getting or tell you not to go on the Internet and read that.

[Lola Blanc]

Isolation in an abusive relationship. Yeah. If you're in a group that tells you not to read about the group or not to talk to anyone else about the group, you're probably in a cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you're dating a guy who says, don't talk to any of my ex girlfriends, you're in a cult.

[Christine Marie Katis]

That's good. That's good, right? These are good signs. And cults attract the best people in the world. And if you were in one, consider it. Consider it a bad. If you were in one, consider it a badge of honor. You survived it, you came out, and you have a story to tell.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What do you believe in now?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Well, I'm not an atheist.

[Lola Blanc]

Mom.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I am not. I did not throw out the baby with the bathwater. There was a time when I thought, none of this is true. Nothing. It's all just fiction. Now I see a purpose in religion. I mean, I study positive psychology, and one of the factors of happiness is having a spiritual life, having a religious community. And I think religion gives a purpose and a meaning to lives. And I recommend people have a religion. Just don't let it control you.

[Lola Blanc]

I would want to ask you in a nutshell, what do you think? What would you say that you learned from this experience?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Okay. I learned that I had faulty thinking. I learned that looking for signs and coincidences and trying to give them godly meaning is very dangerous. I learned to believe what I see, to see things, to know for a fact, to not believe in good feelings, that good feelings are not proof of truth.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Christine Marie Katis]

I learned that somebody can have. This is the biggest thing. I learned that somebody can put on a. An incredible show of goodness, help the poor and needy. Let's save the world, let's save the trees, let's save the government. It's always a great mission or cause to save the world, but the people behind it, with their great mission and cause could be really just donning a costume and it's really all about them. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

The bigger that parade is, the bigger that show of all of how great of a heart they have or whatever, the less I trust.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Narcissists are a hell of a drug.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, well, they all have to have this mission to attract people. And quite frankly, a lot of cults do a lot of good, too. They're not 100% bad. So just watch it. And don't believe for one minute that because your teacher is teaching great things that he's not also in the back room molesting somebody.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly. Exactly. It's that. That's the gray area that I feel like people don't grasp. As I did good and bad in these groups and in these people. Just because there is good there does not mean that there isn't bad there.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Exactly. Like even Alison Mack, I think she had a big wake up. I read her pleading and she was like, wow. I thought we were helping people. I thought I was helping Keith help people. I didn't realize all these other things he was doing.

[Lola Blanc]

And. And we'll never know if that's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If that's true or not.

[Lola Blanc]

We'll never know. But, like. But I think it is important to start changing how we think about people who have been brainwashed. Because you, like I said, like, you create. They create a new identity for you that you would never have created for yourself. And you people do things that they would have never believed they're capable of. As you did, mom.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Right. And it's traumatic brain manipulation.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Exactly. I'd like to take this opportunity to make fun of Chad and where he is now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Would you like to bear your testimony?

[Lola Blanc]

I'd like to bear my testimony that I know that Chad is not a prophet. He has a website that we will not give to you guys because we don't want to. Let's just say one of his messages is to end human trafficking within one week.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

The government just needs to listen to his plan and human trafficking will be over. He is an advocate for victims of human trafficking.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Wouldn't you know it? Wouldn't you know it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

This website's wild.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Well, if you're okay, if you come out of a cult or if you know somebody come up that has come out of a cult, I do recommend you get involved in a support group and there are some on Facebook and I run a couple. And I think it's important to take what happened to you and turn it into something positive.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, that's what you've done. I remember before you started really talking about it, it was such a source of fear for you, and it was something that you didn't even want to touch. We couldn't talk about it at all. It was just too big for you. It was too hard. And understandably, what you went through was so traumatic. You know, I think that would be true for anyone. And then once you started Reshaping your own narrative and reclaiming your story and, like, accepting that it had happened and finding ways to interpret it that helped your life. You got so much better. I have observed you grow so much and heal so much. So don't be afraid of telling your story, guys.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Amen.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, thank you for coming, Wami.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Where can they find you on social media?

[Christine Marie Katis]

Yeah, I have. My charity's called Voices for Dignity.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh, I love that.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Voicesfordignity.com and I'm Christine Marie Katis. K A T A S on Instagram.

[Lola Blanc]

So one of the things Megan and I talked about before we started this podcast was that she is kind of susceptible to every cult.

[Christine Marie Katis]

Mm.

[Lola Blanc]

And so, Megan, would you follow this leader? Would you join this group?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm gonna have to go no on this one. Just because I think that he would. Yeah, he's just. He's not for me.

[Lola Blanc]

No specific.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not enough glitz, not enough glamour, not enough, you know, oneness and running around in the woods.

[Lola Blanc]

Good. Glad we got that covered. All right, you can find me Lola on Instagram @olalola. O o h L A L O L A.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You can just find me at meagongranger. M E A J A N G R A I N G E R. All right, guys, thanks for listening. We just want you to remember one thing, and that is follow your gut. Watch out for red flags, and never.

[Lola Blanc]

Never, ever trust me.

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Christine Marie Katis]

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[Christine Marie Katis]

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