Sarah Edmondson, Part 1 - Joining NXIVM, Meeting Keith Raniere, and Moving Up the Ranks

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Sarah Edmondson, Part 1 – Joining NXIVM, Meeting Keith Raniere, and Moving Up the Ranks
Date: May 20, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth
Guest: Sarah Edmondson (NXIVM survivor, author of "Scarred", co-host of "A Little Bit Culty")

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode opens a two-part interview with Sarah Edmondson, a central survivor and whistleblower from the "self-help" cult NXIVM. Through honest recollections, Sarah walks listeners through how she was recruited, describes the initial allure of the group, her first encounters with NXIVM’s infamous founder Keith Raniere, and her progression up the organization's ranks. Exploring the subtle—and not-so-subtle—psychological manipulations employed by cults, Sarah and the hosts reflect on universal human needs for purpose, community, self-improvement, and how these can be weaponized by controlling groups.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sarah’s Entry into NXIVM (15:23–18:52)

• The Initial Hook:
  • Sarah meets filmmaker Mark Vicente at a spiritual film festival. Mark, already involved in NXIVM, uses an exercise (unbeknownst to Sarah) to probe why she had a lingering cough.
  • Mark asks: “What would you lose if you stopped coughing?” (16:07)
  • The exercise leads to a realization about seeking attention through illness, which Sarah finds impactful at the time.
• Recruitment Leverage:
  • Mark’s credentials—director of "What the Bleep Do We Know?"—lend credibility to his recommendation of a five-day NXIVM course.
  • The pitch emphasizes joining a community of “humanitarians changing the world,” making involvement seem both glamorous and meaningful.

Quote:
“If it had come from somebody I didn't already have on a pedestal, it might not have affected me. But having it come from Mark... it was glamorous and it was meaningful and it seemed to fill a lot of the buckets.” — Sarah Edmondson (18:34)

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2. The Power of Self-Improvement Language & Manipulation Techniques (19:18–25:03)

• NXIVM's Approach:
  • Marketed as an “Executive Success Program” focused on overcoming “limiting beliefs” via intense seminars—framed as rigorous, personal development.
• Manipulation via Sales Pressure:
  • Sarah is subjected to high-pressure sales tactics when she hesitates to sign up—shamed for waiting for auditions as an actor/discouraged from backing out due to the sunk cost of her deposit.
  • The group deploys “scarcity” and “urgency” tactics common in high-control sales.

Quote:
“You're 27 and you're to be just waiting by the phone, like, when are you going to be the master of your own destiny?” — NXIVM recruiter to Sarah (23:22)

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3. NXIVM Basics, Training, and Psychological Framing (27:20–30:53)

• Group Overview:
  • NXIVM presents itself as a hybrid between self-help seminar and group therapy but with cultic undertones, using a “large group awareness training” format.
  • Early classes covered topics like money, honesty, emotions, and self-esteem, using unique jargon like “disintegration” (conflicting beliefs causing inner tension).
• Training Structure & Tactics:
  • Long days, control of basic needs (“don’t eat during sessions—you’re covering feelings”), subtle emotional manipulation.
  • Systems of merit (colored sashes/stripes) to measure personal ‘growth’, mimicking martial arts.

Notable Moment:
“The stripe path is genius... unless you join the military, you're just, ‘What's those steps?’ So then to just be like, these are the stripes...” — Megan Elizabeth (32:33)

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4. Emotional Hooks: Purpose, Belonging, Validation (31:11–34:42)

• Why Sarah Was Prized:
  • Outgoing, connected in Vancouver’s film industry, entrepreneurial, skilled at sales and recruitment—“very good at sharing it and telling people to do it with me.”
  • Shown favoritism, promoted quickly—recognized for people-pleasing, made to feel special.
  • Sash/stripe system offers tangible validation, unlike acting where payoff is uncertain.
• Reusing Outside Modalities:
  • NXIVM borrowed liberally from therapy, Buddhism, and NLP, giving it a veneer of legitimacy.
  • “Whiteboard goal setting” is cited as a NXIVM method—borrowed but not original.
• On Healing:
  • Sarah reflects on discerning what, if anything, was valuable from her experience and what was merely repackaged manipulation.

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5. Keith Raniere's Manipulations & "Spiritual Wives" (36:38–41:33)

• "Spiritual Wives" Concept:
  • Keith reframes his coerced sexual relationships as “spiritual marriages”—a phrase he may have lifted from Lola’s own childhood cult leader.
  • Sarah didn’t learn the term until after leaving NXIVM, but "harem" was commonly used in the group.
• The "Gaze" as Control:
  • Keith would use intense, sustained eye contact to make women feel uniquely seen and emotionally naked, “starstruck.”
• The Irony:
  • Cultic leaders frequently borrow language and ideas from other groups; rebranding and reinventing, but the underlying behaviors are disturbingly similar.

Notable Quote:
“He just really saw you, and it was confronting, you know. But also, like, I think my internal radar was like, gross.” — Sarah Edmondson (41:33)

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6. "At Cause" and Personal Responsibility as a Manipulation Tool (44:04–49:23)

• Explaining "At Cause":
  • Members are taught to take full responsibility for everything that happens in their lives (“how did you author that?”), both positive and negative.
  • Exercises mimic therapy/coaching but are used to deflect group responsibility or systemic injustice (“You haven’t been paid commissions in months? What’s going on for you that you need to bring that up?”).
• Role Play:
  • Hosts act out a classic "at cause" drill, realizing both its superficial value and manipulative potential.
  • Subtle gaslighting reframed personal needs or complaints as individual failings rather than valid concerns.

Memorable Lines:
“What aspects of cause and effect were you not aware of?... That was another way of saying, 'How’d you cause it?'” — Sarah Edmondson (48:02)
“They would gaslight you and just be like that. That’s because of those issues, Sarah.” — Megan Elizabeth (49:48)

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7. Life in NXIVM: Years Inside, Golden Period, Money, and the Bronfmans (51:07–53:34)

• Twelve Years, Shifting Roles:
  • Sarah describes early years striving for status ("orange sash"/proctor), running a Vancouver center, being flown on the Bronfman family jet.
  • The “golden years” were filled with travel, a sense of purpose, and exclusivity.
• The Bronfman Influence:
  • Claire and Sara Bronfman, Seagram’s heirs, bankrolled NXIVM—funneled millions into Keith’s failed market speculations.

Notable Moment:
“That’s pretty wild for the smartest man alive to lose $60 million. That doesn’t make sense.” — Megan Elizabeth (52:37)

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8. Would the Hosts Have Joined? (53:06–56:00)

• Both Lola and Meagan reflect on their own susceptibilities:
  • Lola admits she would have been vulnerable to NXIVM’s “goal-oriented, ambition cult” vibe—“It’s my Achilles heel.” (53:56)
  • Meagan thinks she’d increasingly be drawn to such structure as she gets older.
  • Both balk at the prospect of marathon volleyball sessions... but admit the group’s appeal.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-awareness and manipulation:
  “There's a wide range... I'm still trying to figure out what my beliefs are around these things. I'm not anti-spiritual or anti-personal growth, although I was for maybe a couple years when I first got out.” — Sarah Edmondson (20:26)
• On the abuse of self-improvement tools:
  “If the stripe path was what it said it was, it would have been brilliant. Like, there is nothing in the therapeutic world that really measures your results... it turns out it was a lie.” — Sarah (33:24)
• On the banality of cult controls:
  “It wasn't—they were doing harsh control. It's almost like Keith... had looked at things like Scientology and... dialed it back a little bit.” — Sarah (30:46)
• Hosts' humor and relatability:
  “Can a non-psycho person start this? Like, I need that... as soon as we let one narcissist in, it'll...” — Megan Elizabeth (43:11) “No gazing allowed. Avoid eye contact.” — Sarah and Lola on Raniere’s manipulative gaze (41:46–41:50)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Sarah’s Recruitment/First Encounter with NXIVM: 15:23–18:52
• High-Pressure Pitch/Signing Up: 22:15–25:03
• What is NXIVM / Training Experience: 27:20–30:53
• Sash System, Validation, and Adapting Outside Modalities: 31:11–34:42
• Keith Raniere & Spiritual Wives Concept: 36:38–41:33
• Exploring "At Cause" Exercises and Their Dangers: 44:04–49:23
• Life Inside, The Bronfmans, Money Trails: 51:07–53:34
• Would You Have Joined?: 53:06–56:00

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Tone & Approach

The conversation is candid, conversational, and humane—mixing survivor wisdom, genuine reflection, and the hosts’ signature blend of dark humor and empathy. They make space for laughter amid seriousness, communicating cult recovery’s complexity and both the horror and the banality of manipulation.

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Summary

This episode offers a deeply personal and accessible entry into understanding cultic recruitment and control, using Sarah Edmondson’s NXIVM experience as a vehicle to expose broader dynamics of psychological influence and community seduction. Listeners gain insight not only into what makes cults so alluring, but also how “self-improvement” language, social validation, and subtle gaslighting combine to draw smart, driven people into unhealthy systems. Through relatable anecdotes, probing questions, and humor, the hosts and Sarah create a vital resource both for survivors and the cult-curious. Part 2 promises to delve further into NXIVM’s inner circle, DOS, and Sarah’s eventual exit from the group.

Transcript

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is exactly right.

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

Trust me.

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Do you trust me?

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Would I ever lead you astray?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Trust me. This is the truth. Only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from the two smartest women in the world who've actually experienced it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I am Lola Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. And of course we are smart. But the smartest woman in the world is a reference to Keith Renery calling himself the smartest man in the world.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no, I'm actually the smartest woman in the world.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I mean, I am too, but I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We have to sound humble.

[Lola Blanc]

No, no.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sorry.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. I mean, no, I'm not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is there a helicopter coming to you right now to. Oh, no. Steal your brain power?

[Lola Blanc]

God damn it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is that what's happening this week is

[Lola Blanc]

part one with at long last, Sarah Edmondson. She is a survivor of NXIVM and host of podcast A Little Bit Culty along with her husband. And they have a book out now of the same name that gets into all things cults. Today she's going to tell us about how she first joined the self help group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Was that an atomic bomb?

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, what?

[Sarah Edmondson]

God damn it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Are you living in a cartoon?

[Lola Blanc]

What is happening? Okay, quick, before they do it again. Today she's going to tell us about how she first joined the self help group that turned out to be a sex culture and how it began with a comment by Mark Vicente that shook her worldview. She'll explain why she was drawn to the goal oriented framework and what it meant to be at cause. And she will do the exercises on me and Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's right. She'll explain how this was a tool of manipulation to deflect from the group's wrongdoings. How she felt starstruck when she first met Keith Renari, who claimed to be the smartest man in the world. And we'll touch on his idea of spiritual wives and how that may have been a concept stolen from Lola's mom's prophet.

[Lola Blanc]

Dun, dun, dun. We'll see. And next week we will get into her later years in the group and das and how she left. But for now, Megan, my dear co host, what is your culties thing of the week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, mine's a little bit silly this week. Sometimes they're dark, sometimes they're silly. This one leans a little bit more on the silly side, but actually, the more I think about it, it could have been dark. Okay, okay. So in the high control group I grew up in, there wasn't a ton of young people, right? So you would have to travel out of state, sometimes even out of the country to meet people that were your age that you could marry. Because you're not allowed to marry outside of the group that weren't your cousins. Right?

[Bethenny Frankel]

Uh huh.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Makes sense.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you're pausing. You understand that you can't marry your cousins, correct?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, totally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so. So we would usually be meeting at these conventions which were just very long church days, where we would all like, stay in the women's barn and the men's barn and people would like, stay awake to make sure none mingled. Preachers would say from the pulpit, like, we are not here to see or be seen. And it's like, bitch, how the hell do you think we're going to find somebody to marry if we're not trying to look our best with our fishtail braids and. Yeah, yeah, you know, like, sorry if my jean skirt is a little form fitting. You know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to cook here. Not literally cook. I can't cook, but I'm trying to find my husband. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because that used to be the goal. Now cut to. I move to Los Angeles, a very far place away from where I was raised, and there's a whole new world of people, complete and utter strangers. And a lot of them are doing exciting things out here, like being in the talkies, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Sure, yeah. That's what we do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We weren't allowed to have TV growing up, so like, whoa, you're. You're in. You're in the thing. Like, cool. So I started running around with a crowd that were in the entertainment industry. Who cares? Whatever. Yeah, I had a little bit of a crush on one of them.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Who cares?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Never hooked up at all. I did have him on my Pinterest board at one point because I thought he was cute and something great. No big deal. Couple months ago, we're at a wedding, everyone's like, you should hook up with him. I'm like, I. I don't. He's just not gonna fall in love with me and be obsessed with me. So, like, I don't. I don't want that journey for me. Correct. So then I go home a couple weeks ago and I'm looking at my ancestry book. Guess who's my cousin.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Guess who is my freaking cousin.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This man, this man, this man, this man. So it's not like first or. I don't even know. It's like a very thick book. And it just said his name and his date of birth and how we were related to this family. And I was like, surely he's not from Missouri. All my family's from Missouri. Look it up. He's from Missouri. So it's just, it's just funny. What the hell.

[Lola Blanc]

So you almost married your cousin is what you're telling me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I, you know, what I'm saying is that I almost slept with my cousin and got my feelings hurt.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I'm glad you didn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you. What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

I'm just seeing this news story which I guess isn't new but.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But it is.

[Lola Blanc]

Talked about it, but it is news but not new. New. It's from January. There's an article on CBS News called their 21 kids were taken by the state. Now they're fighting for custody of even more surrogate born babies. This is written by Kara Tabachnik, Katrina Kaufman and Graham Cates. So it's about this couple in Los Angeles that have disturbed this huge mansion that started getting surrogates to bear children for them from Facebook.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Marketplace.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes, like on Facebook to like have their babies. And the people were told that it was going to go to couples who don't have any kids or only have one kid or something when in reality there wasn't actually it wasn't a surrogacy company. It was just them and they were just keeping all the kids themselves. So they have a couple dozen kids in this home. And what seems to have been going on behind closed doors is very alarming. It says records show police responded to at least three dozen calls to the couple's mansion in less than four years, including noise complaints related to verbal altercations, an anonymous call alleging child abuse. And there's like surveillance footage of all of these kids, regardless of gender, have their heads shaved, are being physically punished. Like a toddler is being made to do squats. And it says the neighbor spoke of seeing young children being potty trained in a single line in the couple's backyard. It just sounds like this really horrifying military esque cult where they're like raising these kids. Like I don't understand what the goal would be. Like why do you want all of these children that you're going to treat this way? Like I don't understand.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. And they're lying to the surrogates as well. Yeah, that's an extra layer of deception that just makes me think what are y' all doing?

[Lola Blanc]

What are they doing? Like are they trying to build an army of some kind? Like an army of God, you know, like that's what it's giving. I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean most babies don't have to do squats.

[Lola Blanc]

Why is a 2 year old doing squats anyway? It's all really, really horrifying and alarming. But I did not know about this case, at least not in depth. So that's my cultiest thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm sure more will be revealed about their intentions and I'm very curious as to if this had a name and if this was an organized religion, so to speak. But yeah, we don't know that today, do we?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, we don't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We don't. What we do know is that Sarah gave us the interview of a lifetime and we're gonna jump on into it.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's jump.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's go.

[Lola Blanc]

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Sarah Edmondson to Trust Me finally. Thank you for joining us.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Such a treat. I feel like it's been about like, well since we started our pod. So it's just five years since we started. We've been trying to do this because you guys have been around the same time right? Before or five years.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it was like it's a little over. Yeah, it was like late 2020. But yeah, I feel like y' all are our companion podcast and we've just never done the crossover, which is wild.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And let me say this officially, that you should definitely come a little bit culty and I apologize that that hasn't happened sooner. So please make this the official invite.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great. Perfect.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, we can end too now folks. I'm just kidding. All right, so much to get into with you because you have two books and we would love to talk a bit about the content of both of them. Maybe kind of at the same time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sure.

[Lola Blanc]

First, the first book you wrote is called Scarred and it is about your experiences in NXIVM under Keith Ranieri and then your most recent book with your husband and podcast co host, based on your podcast, is called A Little Bit Culty. And that is more of a just like a guide to cults. Sarah, can you start us at the beginning of your journey? And that first comment that Mark made, that was your entry point into nxivm

[Sarah Edmondson]

in terms of inviting me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Where were you at in your life and how did you end up going with him? Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And thanks. Thanks for that lovely introduction. I wrote Scarred so people would see the whole journey in and out. And then the second one is more of a resource, like a handbook, which I struggled with when I was writing Scarred because all along the way I'll be like, and this is called love bombing, and this is called Isolation. But I was kind of steered away from doing that, so now I got to do both. And what would have been happening in that initial conversation with Mark was my hook what hooked me into Nexium, although he didn't. Mark didn't know about what was going on behind closed doors.

[Lola Blanc]

Of course he was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He was just also recently found nxivm and was very excited about it. And then he met me. And I was a lot of things as a struggling actress looking for meaning and. And community and purpose. So my. My boyfriend at the time, and this is kind of trying to accordion the story. There's a lot of things going on. But my boyfriend at the time was a filmmaker. He got into a film festival, Spiritual Cinema Circle Festival at sea. So it was all these spiritualists, people who were making films who were trying to, you know, shift consciousness. I'd seen with the bleep, which I really loved. And we met Mark Vicente. We were. We sat with him at dinner, and I had a really bad cough. I was sick at the time. And he basically asked me, what would you lose if you stopped coughing? And help me through this sort of, like, informal, you know, smorgasbord of NXIVM tools. Didn't know this at the time. Helped me see that I had, through my wiring or my programming, linked sickness with getting love and sort of flashback through all these times in my life where, like, my mom had been sick and I had to get her full attention. I had to be sick. And it was this huge sort of aha for me. And that was just like one of many conversations that I had with Mark.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And this is over a dinner.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, this is just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. So Mark is the director of what the Bleep Do. We know. And it is a very big influence on my Life back in the day. I'm, you know, a very spiritual movie about. It's kind of like the Secret 2.0.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Came before the Secret. And, and. But it was in that world. Right. And it, I think now would be dated, but at the time it was quite groundbreaking. And basically having people recognize that like, you know, your mindset does affect how you perceive the world, essentially like quantum physics, spirituality. Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I loved it when I was young.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I also was like, whoa. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So to meet this man who made this groundbreaking movie that everybody was talking about, I have to imagine. Add some weight to whatever he's saying to you in that conversation.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, had it come from somebody that didn't like already have on a pedestal, it might not have affected me in the same way. In fact, you know, many other people had invited me to a $2,000 five day training to, you know, work through my limiting beliefs and be more successful. I might not have done it. I probably wouldn't.

[Lola Blanc]

Wouldn't have done it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But having it come from Mark, and it wasn't just about like doing the five day for my own growth. It was like, you know, this is a opportunity to be working with a group of people like actual humanitarians changing the world. Big red flag. You know, it seemed really exciting and it was glamorous and it was meaningful and it seemed to fill a lot of the buckets. Purposeful. Yeah. Versus the sort of the acting opportunities I'd had up until that point.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm curious now, like, after all of this processing you've been doing, having so many conversations about dynamics like this, do you still believe that question about essentially it's your choice to be coughing and oh, it's like I have chosen to be sick. Like, do you still.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Where do we land with that? Because I'm, I'm still, I'm still kind of there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. I don't feel like it's choice, but I do feel, I mean, I think we have lots of choices, but with that particular thing around sickness, I think it's really tricky. And I would never want to say what it is for anybody else, but I do think that I still do have a sort of fundamental belief that our upbringing is our programming. And so if you learn that you can get care when you're sick, it's not a conscious thing like, oh, I'm gonna make myself sick. So my parents pay attention to me. But I certainly see that out in the world and I, you know, I see it with my kids and they. Not that exact thing, but like I see how they learn something and then they repeat the pattern and then the body learns to repeat the pattern. That's kind of how I see it. Right. I don't think it's like an active choice to cough and then get attention.

[Lola Blanc]

But I mean.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And of course not all coughs are hypochondriacal or whatever. I don't know if that's the right word. But I do see some cases where people use sickness to get attention. And when you look at Munchausen by proxy and those types of things and people who fake cancer to raise money, that's extreme. Obviously. I don't know. I think there's a wide range. But I'm still trying to figure out what my beliefs are around these things. I'm not anti spiritual or anti personal growth, although I was for maybe a couple years when I first got out.

[Lola Blanc]

But I'm open natural, I think.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whenever I don't like speak my truth, I lose my voice. Whenever somebody's like kind of walking all over me, I will physically lose my voice.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I think that's a real thing.

[Lola Blanc]

I used to feel sick. Anytime I would have like a performance coming up, then suddenly I would have a sickness.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I don't know why I just laughed at that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'm like, no, that's hilarious.

[Lola Blanc]

But I mean, you know, I'm sure most cops are just real cops.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, no, of course most cops are real cops. Most cops are real cops. Did he talk you out of your cough?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, I did get better. But I think what was really just more what, whatever, what causes what, I think what was more helpful for me to know or realize about myself. Like it's just a level of self awareness that in that relationship I didn't feel like I was getting enough attention, that's for sure. Like that's whether I needed it actually, or it was my own issue or whatever. Like I was feeling needy with your

[Lola Blanc]

partner at the time, who you were

[Sarah Edmondson]

there partner at the time.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so this influential, wise seeming man helps you have this immediate insight into this pattern in your life. So can you walk us through how you actually start going to the seminars and what they're like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So it turned out. And of course I thought this was serendipity and maybe it was that there was the first training in Tacoma, Washington, which is just south of Vancouver, a few weeks later. And so I decided with my boyfriend at the time, who's David in my book. And we're still friends and we're all good now and we laugh about it, but hey, we were at a cult together, but we decided to do it together. And there's a number of things that happen. I don't know how much detail you want me to go into, but basically like there was a 48 hour discount. I signed this paper to get the discount and then before the training I tried to get out of it because, you know, I'm an actor living in a basement suite and it's very expensive and I basically get gaslit and strong armed by somebody I'd never met before who, spoiler alert later teaches me to do the same thing to other people to get them to join sales and basically helps me see that I'm, I think my, my exact line was something like, you know, will have to be available for my agent auditioning. And they said you're, you're, you're 27 and you're to be just waiting by the phone, like when are you going to be the master of your own destiny? How long does that, you know, that's

[Megan Elizabeth]

such a good one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Which, such a good one. And other things are on money and you know, like, why don't you have any money? You're, you're an adult.

[Lola Blanc]

Just blaming, blaming for.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, and so many 27 year olds are rich. Not. Were you just, were you like, were you encouraged to just put it on a credit card?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, I put on a credit card, which is exactly what I did. And then I went to the training and that's like a whole other chapter of Scarred. But the long and short of it is that it was, there were so many red flags from the beginning. Like if I had this education, you know, if I'd read this book, I probably wouldn't have even signed up or I would have balked at the price or I would have like been like, oh, you know, you're pressuring me or you're using like scarcity tactics to try to get me to sign up. Like I know all the things now, but had I still signed up, I definitely wouldn't have stayed at past, probably the first class, definitely not past day one. But they were very good at preempting people and preparing us to feel uncomfortable. Which means it's a sign of pushing up against our limitations and we're there to grow. And it's a success program and successful people know how to face their limitations. So if you feel uncomfortable, then great, we're on something, right? So I was feeling really uncomfortable and also not wanting to. There's a lot of things I didn't want disappoint Mark. I didn't want to lose my 2160. I, you know, I, I wanted to be open and Mark had said to me it's like the first couple days are weird and then it gets amazing and just, you know, trust the process. So I did. I trusted the process.

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[Sarah Edmondson]

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[Lola Blanc]

For the youth who maybe have not heard of next year. Sometimes young people will be like, what's next? And I'm like, what?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Can you just like, have he been living under a rock?

[Lola Blanc]

Seriously, have you. Can you just like give an overview of like what they were marketing it as?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. What we thought it was. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I think the closest that it would be if people don't know what it is, is like kind of like a Tony Robbins seminar, but much smaller. So somebody at the front of the stage. Well, it's called an elgat. I'm sure you know this large group awareness training where we were meant to basically join a community where we could look at our, our limitations. And it was basically therapy, although we weren't allowed to use that word. But look at our limiting beliefs and figure out how to evolve them to be the best versions of ourselves. Another term for it in once you were sort of more in was the science of joy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh boy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Also, also big red flag. Yep. And yeah. So as a community of humanitarians trying to change the world by evolving our disintegrations, which is any, any area of, of God, it's so hard to go back to this vernacular, like beliefs that weren't aligned with reality. So an example of a disintegration would be, and this is, I think a very common thing that does exist in the world is people say, for example, like wanting to make money but also believing that money is the root of all evil. So like wanting it but thinking it's bad causes sort of like issues internally around money.

[Lola Blanc]

So that would be maximum disintegration sense.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, that's, that's a word that I would be like, I get that. That makes sense. There's so many things nexium that, that makes sense to me. So yes, I would be like, interesting. Interesting.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And that's what the first five day was like, was a bunch of conversations around money and honesty and value and work and self esteem and your emotions. So those. Even though the first few days were weird, by day three, I was like, this is really fascinating. Like, I've never talked about the difference between jealousy and envy. One is good and one is bad, by the way, because you didn't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, envy's bad. Jealousy is good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Oh, you get a stripe on your sash.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What were you, were you like being like early wake up calls, not a ton of food? Like, was that stuff already starting in the training?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That came later. I mean, I think that what was already set up from the beginning was long hours. So we started, I think, at 8, and then went till after dinner. Like, we didn't get home in a bed till 10. So it's just like, long, long days and slight control of, like, eating. Right. We were supposed to eat on the breaks. So they would say, like, just try not to go to the bathroom and eat during the breaks because you're covering up your feelings. Eating or flirting or drinking or going to the bathroom. You're running away from whatever it is you need to look at. So they. It wasn't. They were doing harsh control. It's almost like Keith Renery, the head of Nexium founder, had looked at things like Scientology and maybe asked Landmark Forum and saw what was extreme and what didn't work and sort of, like, dialed it back a little bit. So it was really easy to say, well, of course, no, we're not going to stop you from eating. If you have low blood sugar, go ahead and eat. But we're just encouraging you not to because you're not going to get to the root of the things if you're, you know, smothering your feelings with chips or whatever. Which also has truth to it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, smart, smart, smart.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Which would work. I'd be like, I don't want to be the only one who's covering my feelings up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, can't do that.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to be the best student.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola would have been right by your side at nexivm every step of the way, fully. Y' all remind me a lot of each other, and, I mean, what do you think made you so valuable to nxivm?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, and I'm curious, Lola, if you relate to this or we have to save your answers when you come on our podcast, but I think that there's a couple things I was valuable in that I, you know, was very sociable. I was a, you know, butterfly, social butterfly. So I had a lot of friends. I was very well connected in the film industry in Vancouver. And I've also been, like, since as long as I can remember, kind of. I don't want to say good at sales, but, like, I used to do garage sales. I used to sell jewelry and hair wraps in the 90s. I sold the most Rainforest Crunch bars to raise money for our school TV in 10th grade. I was just kind of entrepreneurial. Sully in that way. Whatever I was into, I was very good at sharing it and telling people to do it. With me, yoga, so that kind of thing. So that's a natural trait I think that I had. But then I also was a people. I still am still. It's an ongoing process of people pleaser, bit of a faunner. I like to feel special and so I don't know how calculated that was on their part, but they certainly made me feel special. Promoted me very quickly. So I was sort of like, oh, I got my first sash and I got my first stripe. And then that's the stripe path, which means, it means I'm growing. And especially as an actor where it's like you can throw spaghetti at the wall, you don't know why you got a part or didn't get a part. And then now all of a sudden I had a measurable path for my growth, like karate or martial arts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Stripe path is genius because as, as you graduate college, you're just like, wait, how do I measure anything? Like, everyone feels that way. You're just, unless you join the military or something, you're like, what's those steps? So then to just be like, these are the stripes.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like I almost feel that way about the Mormon conception of heaven as well. Because in so many religions it's like really vague how you get to heaven and what the sin is and what the sin is, you know, and like when you're being a good person. But in Mormonism, it's so specific. It's like you have to go to the temple and you must become temple worthy and you get married in the temple. And you know, like the steps are so specific to get to the part of heaven that you want to get to

[Bethenny Frankel]

doable.

[Lola Blanc]

So it makes the world controllable and makes it like, you know, there's a clear system for how everything works as opposed to, you know, the reality that everything is chaos.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's so true. And I think if the, if, you know, if the stripe path was what it was, what it said it was, it would have been brilliant. Like, there is nothing in the therapeutic world that really measures your results. You know, they, they test, they don't test for that. And like, are you happier? Like, could you do this before? And like, if there's something you can't do and now you can do it, then that's a sign of like, it's a success, right? Executive success program. So that was the whole idea. I was like, there's nothing else like, like it out there. It turns out it was a lie. But if it was true, it would have been great.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, Were there things that, because, you know, so many of these guys just pull from, like you were saying, just, like, pull from other programs and therapeutic modalities and stuff. Like, was there stuff that was being used or taught that you think had some value to it? Because it was rooted in this, like, other thing, 100%.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And that's been a huge part of my healing journey. On the other side is figuring out what, you know, tool I like and still, like. And where is it from? Like, I have this, this massive whiteboard on my wall over here of all my, my goals and stuff and categories. That's something I learned in Nexium. Did Keith invent the whiteboard? No. Right. He did not, but I learned it there. And he also didn't invent goal setting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There's some tweaks to it that I think were sort of unique to him, but I think he pulled, he was really like a whole smorgasbord of all sorts of different things. And some of the things I think are more rooted in, like, proper therapy. Some things are, like, directly stolen from Buddhist tenants. Up until recently, I was very clear that it was like, oh, it's great, because it's, you know, this part is based on nlp, so that's safe. And then, and I saw that you had Alice Hines on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You did have Alice. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

From my games.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Am I making that up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, part of Nancy Salzman, the second in command to Keith, her whole shtick was, like, she trained under Bandler, Bandler and Grindler, who were NLP practitioners, and then she got what she could from them, and then she met Keith and worked with him. Then I find out from Alice in that investigative podcast that, you know, those two were super sketch as well. So, I mean,

[Megan Elizabeth]

don't get her started.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, I have a whole new perspective now about it. And that's, that's what Tony Robbins uses as well. And that's, you know, I, I, I think that's hugely problematic. And there's lots of other things about him that we could get into. But, yeah, I think that some of the concepts around. Okay, if I'm tired, for example, and I need to be on this podcast, I can change my state and be more up and have control over that. That's great. That's helpful. I need that as a parent, and I need that for podcasting and for acting. That's a really cool tool to have. The bad part of it is that if I'm feeling kind of upset about something, I can override it. I can spiritually bypass it and be, you know, everything's fine. So toxic positivity, like every cult we. You've ever looked at. Right. So there's, I think there's good and bad elements of. Of a lot of those things, including nlp. And that's been part of my process is like, okay, what's good, what's bad? Where'd it come from? Who started it? Are they in jail? Like, what do we do?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, they in prison?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I noticed in Scarred that you used the term spiritual wives in reference to how Keith, you know, talked about his coerced sexual partners. And I had never. Maybe I just didn't remember, but I guess I didn't know that that term was used. And are you. Are you familiar with my mom's interactions with Keith, like pre Nexium?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And how he, like, I'm pretty sure he ripped that from my cult leader because that was what my guy, my. The. The prophet that I believed in told my mom about the fact that he had multiple, quote, wives, AKA women that he was coercively, you know, sleeping with. And then Keith was like. My mom was like, talking to Keith about it and Keith is like, oh, he's a scam artist. He's a scam artist.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Whatever, whatever.

[Lola Blanc]

And then meanwhile, Keith goes and lifts that language and uses it years later for Nexium, which I just thought was so crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Keith is the all time. Like, I'm just constantly shocked and awed by how sociopathic this man is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Absolutely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's wild.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And sidebar. I was texting with your mom. So weird to say I was texting with your mom to ask her to come on the show. And I don't know if you know this, but, like, I've been in touch with her since we got out of nxivm. I totally lost touch with her for years, I guess, while she was making that doc.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. So I didn't even know she was doing that. So that's how out of touch I'd been. But yeah, she was the first person to tell me that Keith had been basically coercing women to like, engage in a contractual non monogamy in one way, but monogamous in the other way. So basically they had to be monogamous to him and not vice versa.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's incredible, and we'll get to it later, how he kept that secret from people. Like there would be multiple women like myself. Yes. Thinking I'm his spiritual wife and working next to a woman who's also his spiritual Wife all day long. And neither of you disclose that you're his spiritual wife. It's, it's just like, it's very, very fascinating stuff.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And I didn't learn about that term just to say real quickly. I didn't learn about spiritual wives until after we left. So I had heard after we, after we left, blew the whistle and then everything started to come out. That's when I heard. I think it was the first person I heard was Alison Mack telling one of the other girls how excited she was that they were gonna be spiritual wives together.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was the first time.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'd heard the term harem, but not spiritual wives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah, that's a, that's a big jump from harem to spiritual wife.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So that's a jolt.

[Lola Blanc]

So a bit of a rebrand.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's rebrand.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Pun intended. Yeah. Oh, no, it's okay. No, no, I'm fine.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was reading just bawling on a treadmill, like, because I, I, I. It's so good.

[Lola Blanc]

Like how we both just laughed and then it hit us and we were

[Megan Elizabeth]

like, oh, I know this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, it's okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, okay.

[Bethenny Frankel]

You're more.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Because you've just read it. I'm nine years out. My husband, who I wish that he could. You could be here. Because then we'd really be laughing. Like we are together because we have, we've laughed. And that's the only reason that we've been able to get through it, because otherwise it's just too hard.

[Lola Blanc]

Honestly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same with Luna and I. That's been our. We laugh a lot at this. I mean, how else do you not go? Bye. So how did you first meet Keith in person and what was your impression?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, so I did my first five day in my, in. Sorry, I just realized, I said earlier that was in Tacoma. The school was in Tacoma. They happened to be doing one in Vancouver, where I lived. So that's, that's why I was there. I realized I. Earlier I said Tacoma. I was in Vancouver. And that was in June. And then I got, we got invited. David and I got invited to go back to finish the 16 day training. Cause I only did the 5 days. I finished the 11 day in August and that would roll right into Vanguard Week, so V week. And I believe that I met Keith in my 11 day at some point in that time. I don't know specifics because I didn't keep track of it, but we went to volleyball, David and I, and the class was invited to go to volleyball. And that's when I believe the first time I met him, and he was playing volleyball and at some point held court, like, on the court, and people would ask questions. And I think that there's a snippet of that, actually in the vow. You'll see a very young Sarah with a velvet, like, juicy couture knockoff tracksuit and glasses, meeting Keith Ranieri and looking a little, like, starstruck. Because I was in awe, for sure. Like, I had a lot of respect for him, but I was also really uncomfortable around him. And I didn't know why. And for many years was. And I kind of chalked that up to, like, my own disintegrations. I don't. My inauthenticity. And he's so, like. Cause when he. And I know, you know, about the gazing, the eye gazing, like, he just really saw you, and it was confronting, you know, So I. But also, like, I think my internal radar was like, gross, right? Gross.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, wow.

[Lola Blanc]

The gazing just made me think of a man I dated and how well that worked on me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. Because you probably felt seen and heard. I did.

[Lola Blanc]

I did. It was fake.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Should we ban gazing?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. No gazing allowed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think gazing is banned.

[Lola Blanc]

Avoid eye contact.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's a red flag.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No more gazing. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Nope, it's not working. Can you just really quickly tell us what Vanguard Week is?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, Vanguard Week. So I went to 12 of them in a row. It conflicts with Burning man, if you ever wanna go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you don't wanna miss that one or the other. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In August. And it started off, it really changed from 2005 to my last one in 2016, because the person running it changed. But at the beginning, it was really quite fun and beautiful. It was an incredible summer camp at the YMCA in upstate New York and Lake George. I don't know if you've been to Lake George, but it's like boating and kayaking, canoeing and hiking and bird watching. And it's just stunning. And it was this Silver Bay, it was called. And we were there for 10 days. And the idea was that. So cringe. Keith wanted. I mean, you can't get him anything for his birthday because he's a renunciate. He wants nothing. He needs nothing, of course, other than so much. But anyway. But other than that, he doesn't need anything. So he wanted 10 days where people could live in this ideal way as not hurting each other, being kind to each other, non reactivity, being joyful. That was the idea. So there was a lot of dancing and classes and workshops and just like summer camp for adults. That's what it was, the beginning.

[Megan Elizabeth]

God, can a non psycho person start this? Like, I need that.

[Lola Blanc]

That was the. My thought the entire time she was talking. Okay, can we started like, cult survivor summer camp? That's just like, so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, but as soon as we let one narcissist, then it'll.

[Lola Blanc]

No narcissists allow, though. We'll filter them out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

All right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I would totally. I would totally do a retreat for cult survivors with y', all, but it's def. Like, we'd have to have a board. We'd have to have like a board of 20 people and then take a narcissist test. Like, I don't, like, not be one leader. I don't want to get up on stage.

[Lola Blanc]

It's democratic. The leader has to be voted on every year.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, we're cooking with gas here. I can see it. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you talk about being at cause and when you learned that idea?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Being at cause, I believe is on day one of the first five day training. And the idea is that you're a causing agent in your life and that you. The more responsibility that you can see and that you can seek, the more potent you are. And so if something happens and you're. I'm trying to think of an example, you know, my car got. Gets robbed or something. Being at cause would be to, like, fully own all the decisions that I made to put myself in that situation.

[Lola Blanc]

And what if you did everything right and you locked the door and kept it in a safe place and it still happened? Would you still have to find a reason to be at cause?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, it would be like where at cause really came into play in the curriculum wasn't so much something kind of random like that. It was more like you'd bring something to the table that was an upset in your life. I mean, if you want to give me an example, I can just play with you what it would sound like.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Just for fun.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Tell me something that, like, the world is not the way you want it to be.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In some area, I keep being attracted to the exact same person in different forms, and they're a monster.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And what do you get out of that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Probably not having to have real deep intimacy and a protection from true hurt.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And what would you lose if you. If you actually had that true intimacy?

[Megan Elizabeth]

A safety net of knowing that I'm safe from hurt.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay, so what are you choosing instead then?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Safety.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, my God. I'm so embarrassed. I haven't done this in 10 years. I don't really remember the questions to ask.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think it was like, it's like a safety. I just did it in my head kind of. You're doing a great job. Is like, is safety more important than life? And I'm like, oh, God, no.

[Lola Blanc]

I know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I feel like that. Yeah, something like that.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like that was actually effective. I was like, damn.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I'm like, oh, love is more important than safety.

[Lola Blanc]

What? What a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like you just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, now I'm. I get.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Now you're cured.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Now I'm questioning.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know I got scared. Cause I thought I was gonna. I couldn't remember. And then I. And I like second guessed myself. But that's really sort of what the questions would feel like. You're kind of digging around in the choices and what. What you were getting out of. Like, I remember one of my first ones that I came to Nexium to work on is I had a really hard time making decisions and somebody asked me the question of like, I really couldn't even get dressed without somebody telling me, like, what was better? This or this? Or like eating chicken or the fish and whatever. It was like, I couldn't make decisions. And somebody just asked me like, what do you get out of that pattern? And I was like, well, then if I. If I make a wrong choice, I can blame whoever told me what to do was one of the things. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. So I was like, I wasn't owning. So being at cause would be like, I'm owning the fact that I'm giving away my responsibility to somebody else and I can blame them, which actually lowers my self esteem because then I don't actually see who I am and what I Cause in the world, like, that's this kind of like a Nexium speak for something that was actually helpful for me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I still can kind of catch myself doing or not doing and think that was helpful. But like, at. Cause if somebody was doing it to you in a way that was manipulative and in a way that was not helpful, as if, you know, it would sound more like. Okay, wait, hold on, let me think. Give me another. Give me. Give me some. Give me another something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola, it's your turn.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, your turn.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm broke right now.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, you're broke right now? How'd you author that?

[Lola Blanc]

How did I. How did I what? Offer that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Author that.

[Lola Blanc]

Author that what?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Offer that? You're like, I can't offer anything. I have no money.

[Lola Blanc]

I spent my money irresponsibly okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Why? What were you going for?

[Lola Blanc]

I was investing in myself.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In.

[Lola Blanc]

In a project.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In a project. What were you getting out of the project?

[Lola Blanc]

Creative fulfillment and the hope of return on investment.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay, so what reality.

[Lola Blanc]

What.

[Sarah Edmondson]

What aspects of cause and effect were you not aware of?

[Lola Blanc]

That money goes away and then it's gone. And the ROI isn't necessarily what you

[Sarah Edmondson]

think it's gonna be.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So, like, that was sort of, like. I was trying to be a little bit abrasive because that's sort of what it was. Like, if somebody was doing it to you, that was kind of like, it could be really nice. Like, so, you know, what. What aspects of cause and effect were you not aware of, Lola? And. And how'd you author. That was another way of saying, how'd you cause it? Like, if there's something in your life that's not the way you want to be, it was always like, you caused it. You made choices. You were not aware of. Cause and effect. You avoided data. You ignored data. There was all these things that we'd help people see about how they set it up for some reason. And sometimes that was really helpful.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think in the case of what

[Lola Blanc]

I just said, for example, like, that is. That is correct to, like, take responsibility for what the choices that I made there. But I can imagine that if that's brought up in a context that's more nuanced. Nuanced and. Or like, talking about questioning things that are happening in the group. Yeah. Then it can be turned into deflection of responsibility away from the people in the group and leadership in the group.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That would always be like, if I, you know, if I brought up, you know, hey, like, I noticed that we haven't been paid our commissions in many months, you know, might be, like, what's going on for you right now that you need to bring that up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God. And you were always accused of, like, having control issues and, like, me, you need to like me issues.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So they would just guess, which is also partly true. That's the thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Who doesn't have those two things to some degree? But they would gaslight you and just be like that. That's because of those issues, Sarah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like,

[Megan Elizabeth]

and it worked. And it would work on me as well.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Because it was the, like, me thing. And this, you know, I'm still on the other side of this, having my own version of it with. I call it more like, people pleasing or fawning, accommodating, you know, having a hard time saying no, but ironically, that was something that, you know, I have such a vivid memory when my first. I think it was my first 16 day. That same training where I met Keith, Nancy elicited what's called your. My life issue, where she'd like you, you'd. You'd write up a set series of questions and she's sort of like, and so basically you, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you have to overcome blah, blah, blah, blah, in order. Like, it was sort of like a summary of all your patterns. And I so vividly remember her saying, and I don't remember if this isn't scarred or not, it should be, but she basically said, you have the capacity to be a great leader, but you have to stop caring what people think of you. So basically I have to overcome my like me shit in order to have an impact in the world, which I kind of had to do to expose them later because.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Isn't that ironic?

[Lola Blanc]

So ironic.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's meta on. Meta on. Meta.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's meta.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Meta. That's wild.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Thanks, Nancy.

[Lola Blanc]

For listeners who are like, walk us through, like where. Cause you were in there for years. So like what actually is happening this whole time prior to doss.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So there's 12 years there that's kind of hard to encapsulate. And In Nevermind a 90 minute podcast interview, like book anything is. So there's so much going on and my time there really shifted depending on what rank I was. I think in scart, I did it in three chunks. It was like the beginning where I was like really trying to get to the level of proctor, which is an orange sash. And that's when you start getting paid. So the first four years I was really working hard to get to the rank of proctor and open a Vancouver center, which I did. And then for those middle four years, things were great. I think I called it the golden years in my book. And you know, it was a lot of traveling, a lot of like. I flew on the Bronfman jet to Alaska to run a jeunesse, which is the women's only program.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Who are the Bronfmans?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Really quickly, the Bronfmans are Claire and Sara Bronfman still are to heiress the Seagram fortune. And they were sort of bankrolling and giving a lot of money to NXIVM to keep it going. And I found out later that Keith had lost. And I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but it's like 60 million or something like that. Millions and millions of dollars betting their money on margin. Is that the term? Like he was trying to figure out. He was trying to figure out the stock market with their money. Oh, my.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, that's pretty wild for the smartest man alive to lose $60 million. That doesn't make sense.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Weird. I mean, it's rigged. It was r. Rigged. Was all. Actually, one theory is that he was. I don't know the terminology, but something like how you. You lose something, but it goes somewhere else, and then like you. It looks like you lost it, but like, it's actually going to, like it's an agreement that it's going over here, but you get that. Oh, so it's like he was moving the money offshore or something. I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In theory, there's always an answer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There's always an answer.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola, this is the time of the podcast where you usually ask me if I would join the group that we discuss. And sometimes the answer is yes from me. I've received feedback online that a lot of the groups that I would join are cringe. That was the word a person used. Yeah. So we're gonna put the heat on you this week.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Would you join nxivm? Would you join dos?

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, first of all, nxivm is also cringe. They're all cringe once you actually learn what they are. But you don't know that at first. Yeah, I would join Nexium 100. This is my kind of cult. It's like an ambition call. It's goal oriented.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like centered around somebody's intellect.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, as a non spiritual person, that's definitely like my, you know, weak spot. It's. It's my Achilles heel. It's like, oh, this is gonna help you achieve your goals and you're gonna get to the bottom of things.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And yeah, I ran into a girl this weekend that we're mutual friends with and we were like, can she like, stop doing everything?

[Lola Blanc]

Like, goal? Like, I have too many goals.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's making us feel bad.

[Lola Blanc]

Don't worry. I'm really lonely and sad, so it's fine. And I have no money, but hopefully that'll change eventually. Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're welcome.

[Lola Blanc]

Nextam definitely my jam. Obviously, with all of these groups, once we know what's actually happening in them, then that's no longer the thing we would want to join. But the way they pull you in is with these promises. And those are the types of promises that would get me for sure. Would it get you? I. I'm sure we've talked about it, but I can't remember.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think I'm becoming more of a person who would be gotten by it. But I feel like back in the day I would just be like, why would I want to have more structure in my life, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, you're more of a free, free flowing, free bird.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just a free flowing hippie, free ballin it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But as I. But as I grow older and I'm like, what the hell is happening? I want more control. And that would probably give me that in spades. I would hate that we had to play volleyball all the time though. And I would hate me too. How late he kept us up. And I would hate him, I think, but I would like the people in it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I would get tricked by him. But I. I think I have spoken about the great lengths I have gone to in my life to avoid doing physical activities and sports I didn't want to do. So I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I would.

[Lola Blanc]

Including moving in with my dad because I didn't want to do the diving program in Utah and pretending that it was because I wanted to live with my dad, but actually it was because I didn't want to dive. Yeah, I think I would. The volleyball might keep me away. I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they would play volleyball till like

[Sarah Edmondson]

6am that's fucking crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then he'd be like 7am Wake up call.

[Lola Blanc]

I was at a friend's birthday recently and people were playing volleyball and it like came near me and I ducked. That's my. That's what happens when I play. It's terrifying to me when a ball comes toward me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'll just say one last thing. One of the things that was very hyped in my cult upbringing was volleyball. What the kids on the. Yeah, the kids on the West Coast, Everybody always wanted to go to the West Coast. Cause the kids are playing volleyball. But guess what we were wearing when we were playing volleyball? Jean skirts on the beach.

[Lola Blanc]

I would love to see that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so it all comes full circle. You rating us 5 stars as part of that circle.

[Lola Blanc]

You the listener.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Not you, Lola.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not you. No, the listener rating us five stars, full circle. We would so appreciate it. Leave us a comment. Please do not write me that I'm cringe anymore. I can't take it.

[Lola Blanc]

Please keep telling Megan that she's cringe. Just don't say it to me. Our merch is [e-mail] if you want to get a cute pink hat that says trust me or a baby tee. Go get it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I wear my hat a lot and my tea a lot. So we could be twinsies. Yeah, some of you might like that, some of you might not. But you know what? We'll just say, as we always do, remember to follow your guts, watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

This has been an exactly right production

[Sarah Edmondson]

hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley,

[Megan Elizabeth]

our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram, USTME podcast or on TikTok at trustmecultpodcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

[Lola Blanc]

or wherever you get your podcast.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

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