Sarah Stankorb - Quiverfull, Christian Nationalism, and Why Evangelical Women Are Leaving

Summary

Podcast Summary: Trust Me – Sarah Stankorb: Quiverfull, Christian Nationalism, and Why Evangelical Women Are Leaving

Date: September 24, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Sarah Stankorb, author of "Disobedient Women"

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Episode Overview

This episode of Trust Me explores the Quiverfull movement, Christian nationalism, and the experiences of women leaving evangelical communities, as revealed in Sarah Stankorb’s book Disobedient Women. Together, the hosts and their guest dive into the roots and continuation of Christian patriarchy, the manipulation and control within these religious systems, and the modern resurgence of these ideologies in American politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Sarah Stankorb's Personal Journey

• Religious Upbringing and Deconversion ([16:56–21:16])
  • Raised Methodist, became deeply religious as a child.
  • Exposure to evangelical literalism and subsequent disillusionment.
  • Witnessed anti-queer bigotry in church; led to faith loss.
• Grief of Leaving Faith ([20:11–21:16])
  • Loss compared to a breakup: "It's peeling off part of your identity and it is usually very, very painful. You don't do that lightly." — Sarah Stankorb [20:24]

Understanding the Quiverfull Movement

• Origins & Beliefs ([21:35–23:03])
  • Popularized by Bill Gothard and female leaders (Mary Pride, Nancy Campbell).
  • Core tenet: Christians must have many children to "populate the country" with Christians for political and spiritual dominance.
  • Motherhood as missionary work; birth control and abortion strictly forbidden.

Personal Stories & Consequences

• Vicki Garrison’s Story & Maternal Suffering ([23:09–25:16])
  • Chronic childbearing almost led to her death; community pressure outweighed medical advice.
  • Daughters often forced into caretaking roles.
  • Ultimate message: "You use your body. God gave you this womb. If you do not accept every child God could give you, you're going against God's will." — Sarah Stankorb [22:10]
• Internal Mechanisms that Trap Women ([25:29–26:21])
  • Patriarchy ensures male authority; women’s only avenues are submission and constant childcare.
  • Abuse is often handled internally by church elders, not reported to police.

The Numbers Game: Population & Supremacy

• Christian "Demographics Strategy" ([29:38–30:18])
  • Plan to make Christians the majority: "If each Christian family had six children... in 40 years, 90% of America would be Christians." — Sarah Stankorb [29:52]
  • This explicit pronatalist, supremacist drive continues today.

Evangelical Propaganda: Books, Media & Indoctrination

• Fundamentalist Media & Vision Forum ([31:11–33:19])
  • Catalogs/offers on books & films promoting gender hierarchy (e.g., "Training Dominion Oriented Daughters", "Return of the Daughters").
  • Toys reinforce gender roles: war toys for boys, dolls for girls.
• Rise of Doug Wilson & Christian Nationalism ([33:22–37:46], [70:22–72:44])
  • Wilson’s publishing/media empire pushes repeal of women’s voting, household voting, and active Christian political supremacy.
  • Regularly creates incendiary media stunts ("No Quarter November" flamethrower videos, etc.).
  • His influence now reaches high political offices, including DC and among cabinet officials.

Gender Roles: "Stay-at-Home Daughters" & the Tradwife Trend

• Imposed Submission and Lack of Education ([38:09–41:11])
  • Return of the Daughters: Forces girls to remain under father's authority until marriage.
  • Excuses to withhold higher education; limits exposure to "dangerous" ideas (feminism, secularism).
  • "The idea that you have to submit to your father until you submit your husband, that's baked into a lot of the Christian right." — Sarah Stankorb [39:59]

Abuse, Cover-Ups, and the Patriarchal System

• Gothard, Grooming, and Educational Neglect ([41:21–49:07])
  • Gothard's abuse included instructing women/girls on how to dress—a grooming mechanism that began in the home.
  • Victims often unaware abuse occurred due to lack of sexual education or vocabulary.
• Systemic Patterns ([49:44–55:04])
  • Charisma, not qualification, elevates leaders; creates space for narcissists and abusers.
  • Exposure of wrongdoing is discouraged to "preserve the faith"; abuse often hidden within religious institutions.
  • Women’s lack of authority makes reporting and escape almost impossible.

Abuse Survivors, Speaking Out & the Power of Internet Community

• Blogging & Solidarity ([55:15–59:17])
  • Internet allowed survivors (esp. women and former homeschoolers) to connect, compare, and recognize systemic issues.
  • Pioneering sites: "Homeschoolers Anonymous", "Recovering Grace", and individual campaigners like Krista Brown, who documented predator pastors.
• Institutional Responses ([60:21–61:59])
  • Individual victims blamed or silenced ("Jezebel" stereotype).
  • When abusers confess, sometimes rewarded with applause and redemption narratives while victims pressured to forgive.
• Forgiveness and Minimization ([62:04–66:10])
  • Community emphasis on forgiveness and repentance enables repeated abuse.
  • Victims often asked to forgive, move on; focus on eternity or church's global mission outweighs current suffering.

The Role of Patriarchy & Media Savvy

• Tradition Disguised as Modernity ([53:59–55:04])
  • Evangelicals exploit whatever new media is available for propagation, while cloaking ideas in "tradition".

Leaving, Resistance & What Next?

• What Pushes Women To Leave? ([68:00–69:57])
  • Solidarity with other survivors, witnessing friends’ harm/suicides, protecting siblings, or an awakening to broader national trends.
  • "I feel like I left the cult and now my country has joined it." — Sarah Stankorb [69:32]
• Advice for Survivors ([73:55–75:58])
  • Document everything for credibility.
  • Don’t rely on church authorities if unsafe; go to law enforcement or independent reporters/bloggers.
  • Blogging/reporting communities are key nodes for exposing wrongdoing and changing narratives.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't." — Lola Blanc [02:15]
• "It's a grief process." — Lola Blanc [21:15]
• "It's a closed system... a perfect way to keep people controlled and powerless is to prevent them from getting educated." — Lola Blanc [47:04]
• "Because the parents think that’s what God requires of them. No one knows how to talk about child abuse." — Sarah Stankorb [67:39]
• "Get your evidence squared away, because people will not want to believe you." — Sarah Stankorb [75:34]
• "I feel like I left the cult and now my country has joined it." — Sarah Stankorb [69:32]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [16:26] – Sarah's background & journey out of faith
• [21:35] – Quiverfull movement explained
• [23:09] – Vicki Garrison’s story
• [29:38] – The “Christian demographics strategy”
• [31:11] – Vision Forum and evangelical propaganda
• [33:22] – Doug Wilson, Christian nationalism, and indoctrination today
• [38:09] – Stay-at-home daughters and the tradwife trend
• [41:21] – Bill Gothard, educational neglect, and grooming
• [49:44] – Systemic nature of abuse in evangelical systems
• [55:15] – The internet, blogs, and creating communities of survivors
• [60:21] – Institutional responses to abuse claims
• [68:00] – Why and how women leave, and forces galvanizing resistance
• [73:55] – Practical advice for survivors

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Resources & Further Reading

• Disobedient Women by Sarah Stankorb – widely available, check indie bookstores.
• Further reporting and articles (Sarah offers links for in-depth stories).

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Closing Thoughts

The episode combines firsthand experience, reporting, and survivor testimony to reveal the realities and dangers of Christian patriarchy and nationalist ideology as they persist and adapt today. Stankorb, the hosts, and quoted survivors stress the importance of solidarity, documentation, and the power of community in fighting systemic abuse—while emphasizing the dire importance of vigilance as these movements seek power in public life.

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Follow Sarah Stankorb:
Instagram/TikTok: @sarahstankorb

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Listen to Trust Me:
Available on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, and all podcast apps.
@TrustMePodcast on Instagram

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This detailed summary preserves the insightful, candid style of the show and provides a comprehensive guide for listeners or those interested in the topics of religious abuse, control, and reform.

Transcript

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[Sarah Stancorb]

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[Sarah Stancorb]

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[Sarah Stancorb]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me. This is the truth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief, and of course, manipulation from two disobedient podcasters who've actually experienced it. And I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

This week our guest is Sarah Stancorb, author of Disobedient Women, a book about how women across America began speaking out about abuse in evangelical communities. She's going to talk to us about the Quiverful ideology, which is the idea of having as many children as possible to populate the earth with patriarchal Christians. Evangelical propaganda from the 80s and 90s that encouraged women to submit to their fathers, even as adults, and then their husbands. And of course, Bill Gothard and iblp.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We'll discuss the patterns she's observed among these women that have spoken out whether this kind of systemic abuse and covering up of abuse is inherent to evangelical culture and the connections between some of these fundamentalist figures and our current political system. Fun, fun.

[Lola Blanc]

Before we talk about that, Megan, what's your culties thing this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so most of you have probably watched Unknown number the High School Catfish on Netflix.

[Lola Blanc]

I have not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you are one who has not, then this is a spoiler and skip it. But you can't.

[Lola Blanc]

You're gonna spoil it for me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're gonna get it spoiled. And if you don't wanna watch it and are just like, what is it? Here's a quick Cliff Notes. Basically, a girl in a small Michigan town starts getting cyberbullied, okay? Very, very badly. The 50 to 60 messages a day. Things like, your boyfriend doesn't love you, your body's disgusting. You should kill yourself. The whole community gets pulled in because the FBI is, like, investigating this. Like, kids are getting, you know, accused. Like, it's a whole ass thing. And the families of these two kids at the center of it, it's a girl and her boyfriend are so concerned. And you're just like, wow, this is actually ruining these people's lives. And then the reveal, they follow the digital footprint. It's very hard because this person has some sort of knowledge because they're actually able to kind of hide it. And it is the girl's freaking mother, her mother, who's been interviewed this entire first half and is like, and I didn't know what to do. And like. And she's at the principal's office all the time crying. And you're like, a good girl.

[Lola Blanc]

My jaw is hanging open for those who can't see me, which is everyone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So there's so many things that are, you know, alleged to be true through conversations on the Internet and using your own brain while you're watching it. There's theories out there, like, well, she's a pedophile, allegedly. And she was obsessed with the daughter's boyfriend. And, you know, she Kind of seems to be. And was sending them very graphic sexual descriptions. And her mom. Yeah, yeah. And then it's like, well, perhaps she was an alcoholic. There was like, a thousand bottles on the table when they. The police cam footage captured her. Perhaps she's a narcissist. You know, there's people in her family saying she always had to be the center of attention. And it's like, all of those things can be true. But one of the things that struck me the most was the principal was like, this is the principal of the school who got pulled into this as well. I was like, this is Digital Munchausen.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna say that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yes. So, um, it is Digital Munchausen. And Munchausen is one of these really interesting. Yeah. Dynamics that we talk about a lot on this podcast. Because it is that cult of two. You know, it is like, how many people does it take to make a cult? 2.

[Lola Blanc]

But in this case. But she didn't even know it. She was in a cult of two. Her mom just loved the attention because her daughter was getting victimized.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So her mom loved being number one at the center of this. Like, oh, my God, your poor daughter. You can see in the beginning half of the documentary, she's, like, glowing with all the attention from this thing. But. And, like, people are like, no, the daughter must have been in on it, because the mom was like, you should kill yourself. You should actually. Actually kill yourself immediately. And it's like, no, a lot of moms with Munchausen will kill their child. Like, that's the ultimate slowy. Yeah, that's the ultimate poor you attention thing. And then there's the Stockholm thing at play where the daughter is like, I can't wait for my mom and I to have a normal relationship again. And you're like, what the. Yeah. So I think we will see a lot more of this.

[Lola Blanc]

What's the term that they are using?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, it's like medical abuse.

[Lola Blanc]

Factitious disorder imposed on another fdia.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Factitious. Not fictitious.

[Lola Blanc]

Factitious. And that some people, I believe, are also calling it, like, medical child abuse or something. Okay, but anyway, different terms for Munchausen by proxy. Yes, yes, but that totally makes sense in a way. I'm like, well, at least they're not physically killing the child. But then it's like, okay, but if you're emotionally destroying the child and. Or putting them in harm's way by encouraging suicide, you know, like, that's not better.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, basically, you know, the. The texts are like a molesting of sorts. So, yeah. Yeah. Horrible.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm so glad I don't have to watch these documentaries because you do all the watching for me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I will do all of the watching for you. And indeed, I've done a rewatch.

[Lola Blanc]

So you already?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just want the. And you know what, Lola? I knew the twist because I'd read it in the news, but I still was like, surely they're going to pull that twist where it's like an actor playing the mom, and she's gonna be like, I'm not actually Lauren's mother, but this woman was like, I am the mom. We all make mistakes. And you're like, oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, no.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that. I mean, I think you're right. I think that is probably gonna become more common, which is horrifying.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yikes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Be careful out there, guys. What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

Just another. Just another culty person on the Internet claiming to have special powers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't even think I should say their name because I feel like it gives them attention. So I'm not going to. I'm just going to describe them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is in itself very interesting, the description.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, so this person, I believe is a man, but describes them. But I don't know what. What pronouns are using because they purposely make it ambiguous. Um, because they claim to be an alien.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ah.

[Lola Blanc]

And the way that they present themselves is completely shaved head, completely shaved eyebrows.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He looks exactly like the guy from Barry.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God, yes. Oh, he does. Yeah. Yes. And his eyes are so blue. I'm wondering if it's contacts. Um, there's earrings. There's like. There's like a uniform. And he does this thing where he's so strange looking. He does this thing where he, like, stares into camera and kind of like he's a lot like Benton home mother or whatever.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, he stares into camera and tells you about his special powers and about how stuff is happening on Earth and he's been sent here to do something or other with some kind of mission. And it's so silly looking that, like, I first saw this person. I don't even remember how they came up in my feed. I first saw this person and I was like, well, this is obviously like, everybody on this page knows that this is insane.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But then, of course you look, and I'm like, two people I know follow them unironically. And the comments are all like. Like 600 comments. We are locked in time for the unseen to be seen. It's about time. Enter the Matrix. Welcome the new Earth and all species. We out here anchoring the frequencies and it's just over and over again. Love you, bro. We in this spiritual battle together as a team, always. It's always there's like a battle happening on Earth and this alien ass dud is gonna give us all the answers. It's endlessly fascinating to me when these people come up and so many people are like, no, for sure. No, that seems true. You're an alien. Definitely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, at least levitate or something.

[Lola Blanc]

Do something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Shapeshift in front of my eyes.

[Lola Blanc]

So if you just shave your head and eyebrows and you look a little weird. Mm.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Blue contacts, blue contact, Boom.

[Lola Blanc]

That's what aliens look like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And that really does bring into question, you know, like, is this somebody having an. I like an episode or is this just somebody who's a grifter?

[Lola Blanc]

But I look at their other posts and I'm like, I think definitely grifter. Because the other posts are like, just basically trying to be a regular ass influencer. Like, look at my outfit. Love my. I found true love, you know, my alien spiritual partner or whatever. Like, they're all like vying for attention just in every other possible way you could do that as an influencer, except that they're also an alien who's saving the world.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is their partner an alien?

[Lola Blanc]

I didn't go deep enough to know, but she doesn't have shaved anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, so then she must be from Earth. Goron is the character he looks like from.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's really funny, actually.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, it's a great look. Like if you were playing on stage and you look like that, I'd be like, hell yeah, you look cool.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, but it's a cool. It's striking.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Very memorable.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it is a little bit scary how you really can just kind of say anything.

[Lola Blanc]

You can kind of say anything. And if you look the part and say it with confidence, boom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's online and people share it.

[Lola Blanc]

Boom. Boom. So many of these people now, it's crazy. Technology has done wonders for aspiring cult leaders.

[Megan Elizabeth]

True narcissists in general.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. I feel I should add here really quickly that my debut album, Crowd Pleaser, is out now. It is available wherever you get your music. And I did it completely independently. No label, no management, and I'm really, really proud of it. And there are culty themes on it. There are songs about belief and Charlatan's billionaire greed as well as just love and loss and I would really appreciate it if you would give it a listen a stream a download a share a save a a like a whatever. It would mean so much to me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, well, shall we talk to Sarah and get to the bottom of her book Disobedient Women?

[Lola Blanc]

Let's get to the bottom of it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Some of the content in today's episode could be triggering, so please take care listening.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Sarah Stancorb to Trust Me. Thanks for joining us today.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Thank you. So excited to be here.

[Lola Blanc]

Excited to have you. So your book, Disobedient Women, we have both been reading it. It is jam packed with these incredible stories. And before we kind of start to get into the stories, I would love to know what brought you to this and if you could talk a little bit about that journey.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Well, do you want the short version or the long version?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, maybe the long version. What's what?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Maybe a medium.

[Lola Blanc]

Medium version. Yeah.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So I was a really religious kid. I was very Christian kid and lost my faith in my twenties. And then the years, years on, was working as a reporter and sort of stumbled into a story about Vicki Garrison. She's in chapter one. And I learned about this woman who was part of something called the Quiverful movement and learned about her life, how many kids she had, how restrictive her life had been. And she was just kind of sharing about her life on the Internet. And then I found other women sharing about their lives in these extreme Christian cultures. And this has been a rabbit hole that I started falling down probably in 2013, 14, and I'm still in it. And I feel like, now the country's waking up to see just how unfortunately relevant Christian patriarchy is to our current situation.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, thank God. Absolutely. I mean, although maybe there's a backlash to that happening already, which we can talk about later. But how did you lose your faith? I mean, can you just tell us a little bit about that journey?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So it was probably a mix of a couple of things. First, I was a Methodist kid, and my best friend became very evangelical, started to take me to a Bible study, and I was presented with this very literalist version of the Bible, which I had never encountered before. And I think in a lot of ways, that damaged things for me. Then later, when I went on to study religion, I realized, well, this thing can't possibly be literal. It's drawn from so many different groups and cultures and time periods. It just wouldn't stick together. I was part of it. And then as a very Methodist youth, I went to the Youth Annual Conference, which is a very Methodist sort of representative group that you get sent off to for a long weekend. And this was right when the United Methodist Church was first starting to grapple with being accepting of queer people. And there was a very small minority of us in the room that were hoping we could be accepting. And I just remember sitting in this room and seeing someone my age quoting the Bible, or at least what he thought the Bible said, and the actual spit coming out of his mouth and so much anger. And we can vote either to support queer people or not. And this room, like the vast majority of the room, stood up against loving our friends and neighbors and that I was one of very few who stood up to support folks. And I just. I thought if this is. If this is Christianity, I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Makes sense.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You write really beautifully about the grief that comes with losing your faith. And. Yeah, I think that's just an important thing to note. It's a very painful process, too. It's almost like a breakup.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, no, it is. And so I actually just turned in the manuscript for my second book, which is about women leaving the church. So I've spent years, and then, especially this last year, talking to women about what they left. And it's. It's a breakup. It's. It's peeling off part of your identity, and it is usually very, very painful. You don't do that lightly.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, that's such a big part of your life and your sense of self and your community and just like everything about you, I mean. Yeah, we talk about it a lot on this podcast. How much our belief systems are a part of our identity. And we don't realize how painful it is to lose a chunk of who you believe that you are and how you believe that the world works. I mean, it's really.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

A grief process, for sure.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So we have talked about the Quiverful movement on this podcast a little bit, but reading your book, I got a lot more insight into the details, some of which were just so crazy. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that is?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yes. So this is an idea that was popularized by people like Bill Gothard, if your listeners are familiar with happy shiny people. But there are also some female figures that sort of have not been the feature of a docuseries yet. Lay Nancy Campbell and Mary Pride. So it was this idea that it is Christians duty to create an army for God, that you are filling your quiver in the army with children. And this will help populate the country with Christians. This will help politically. There are a lot of reasons why you would do this. For the women, though. It's sold as being in Christian service. You use your body. God gave you this womb. If you do not accept every child God could give you, you're going against God's will. So birth control, bad, of course, no abortion. And also part of this, and this is part of a story, was this idea that, well, not everyone can be a missionary who goes abroad, but you can be a missionary at home. And even if it puts your own life at risk, well, then you become a martyr for God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Shoot. Yeah, the martyr thing starts to come into play. Can you tell us a little bit more about Vicki Garrison?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So she had child after child. And I think the way she. She describes her period of having baby after baby, I've heard from a lot of women, either as mothers themselves or the oldest daughter who ended up taking care of all these subsequent children.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Because the mother's exhausted, she's pregnant, she's nursing, her body never heals. And so in Vicki's case, she had a uterine rupture. She also thought she needed to have these babies at home without medical intervention. So she was just so thin, so depleted. She had doctors telling her, like, this is not safe. And she had a Christian midwife told her to, you know, go ahead, keep doing it.

[Lola Blanc]

So the doctor's like, literally, it will. It is dangerous to you. It's. You're putting yourself in danger by having more children. But everything in her community is saying, no, this is your duty. You have to do this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also in her community, people correct Me if I'm wrong, Cause this might be a different story. But were saying like when you're breastfeeding, your body's gonna protect you from becoming pregnant immediately, so it's gonna give you this like grace period. And that's simply not true. So that was just a dangerous propaganda lie that tricked people into having more children. Unbelievable.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in her case, like she nearly died and like what, what would, what would have happened to all of these children?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So, and the other side of this is like you're having all these kids, you're also supposed to be submissive to your husband. And if you are in a bad situation where that power goes to the man's head or he was already inclined to be abusive anyway, there's no escape. They can't work that's in their minds against God's will. And there's no time because they're constantly having babies.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So it's really, it's very sad.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Because within this belief system, the husband is the authority within the family. So you must listen to the husband in order to be obedient to God. Right?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I do hear stories like this a lot in various kinds of fundamentalist communities where if the husband is abusive, like it's not like these systems are always telling the men to be abusive, but if the man is abusive.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

He's the one in charge and there's really no recourse because the women are supposed to listen to the husband.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yes, yes. And often, like as you get deeper in the book, this sense of elevated authority also exists within their churches.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So when they, even if they do reform for abuse, the pastor feels empowered to be the one to deal with it. Right. So it's handled in house and making air quotes, which means it's not handled, it's not reported right to the police.

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[Lola Blanc]

I think there was a number regarding the amount of children that Christians should have to alter. Like the percentage of Christians in the population. Was it, was it 80? What was the goal? Can you tell me again?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So this comes from Mary Pride, the anti feminist that I mentioned. So her formula was 80 Christians are 20% of the population. Each Christian family had six children. The Humanists and feminists and others kept on having an average of one. Then in 20 years, there would be 60 of us for every 40 of them. And 40 years, 90% of America would be Christians.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So like that pronatalist thing that we're seeing now, it's not new.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it makes me want to become a pronatalist for feminists because I'm like, well, they can't outnumber us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola's going to have six children.

[Lola Blanc]

That idea of this, like Christian supremacy we have to take over. You know, the country's only virtuous if it's all Christian. I mean, it's so scary to me. Like, sure, have babies if you want to have babies. But like, why? What's the goal? The goal is to take over the nation and the government and, you know, like, there's just this, like, nefarious undertone to all of that that I find alarming. I also wrote down some names of some of the books and movies that you wrote about in your book because I am not familiar with this culture and I find it absolutely fascinating and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely fascinating that it was like one of the highest grossing movies I know.

[Lola Blanc]

Ok. Yeah. So here I'm just going to list them off and if you, if you have anything particular to say about any of them, please. But the way home, beyond feminism, back to reality. Joyfully at home. There was a DVD called Training Dominion Oriented Daughters. Horrifying. There was a film called the Monstrous Regiment of Women. And in it Jenny Chancey. Is that who it was? Jenny Chancey?

[Sarah Stancorb]

I think so.

[Lola Blanc]

Explains that quote, God created men for leadership. And he clearly tells us in his word that when women are in leadership, it's a sign of a curse that upon a nation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

How big is the market for these types of materials?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So, okay, this is one of these things where I get very nerdy. So just feel free to like throw your hands there. So a lot of those, the ed media was funneled through something called Vision Forum, which was popular among fundamentalists in the 90s. So this is a pre Internet, early Internet people would get a physical catalog in the mail. And if you Google, you can still find some of these catalogs. So it's just page after page. Basically anti woman biblical generals propaganda. So books, films, toys. Like the toys crack me up. What are the toys? They're war, like for the boys, basically. The girls get dolls. That's what you do for a girl because you're gonna become a mother and have all these kids.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So that was the stream back then and I put lips fell due to a sex scandal. Now if you've been, if you've been on the Internet and seen the CNN interview with Douglas Wilson recently, it's had a few things to say about women voting. Says free nanny bells.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So he, I think is the inheritor of the desire for these sort of media properties. He is a pastor out in Moscow, Idaho who started Christchurch there, started a K through 12 school called Logos. He started a college called New St. Andrews. He started a seminary program called Grayfires. He, he started a publishing house called Can Impress, which has produced books such as the Case for Christian Nationalism. So there's also a streaming service. There are a lot of entities attached to Wilson. He most recently was on CNN where he was interviewed about his views concerning Christian nationalism and women. Some of his accolades talked about how, you know, householder voting is probably the way in a Christian Asia we should go that it is usually the man votes for the whole family and maybe the 19th amendment should be repealed. That's, that's, that's the world in which Doug Wilson exists. He's extremely attractive to a certain type of listener. He has this kind of like philosopher king error. Every November on his blog, he does something he calls no Quarter November, where he writes mean blog posts about people for a month and then pages it and sells it as an anthology.

[Lola Blanc]

What?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yes. The lead up to that, he. They produce video trailers where he sets fire to something. So the idea is that he is incendiary. So he set fire to a truck, a boat, a couple years ago he had a flamethrower and he set fire to cutouts of a couple of Disney princesses.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whoa.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And then they sell the flamethrower through Can Impress. This whole thing's a huge moneymaker. But it also indoctrinates people and is attractive to certain type of family, certain type of man. And within this, he also teaches women must be submissive to their husbands. And within the book there are stories about how that plays out. Again, these are Women, some who are never taught that they were able to say no. So when you're put into a situation where you are obligated to submit, it can be awful. And I'll give you the link to the Vice story. There are a number of alarming stories attached to Wilson, but right now he is mostly the news because Christchurch has planted a church in Washington D.C. which Hag Seth is attending. And it's creating a lot of, you know, Pete Hicks has. Yeah, it's creating a lot of dreads.

[Lola Blanc]

And for those who are bad at history like me, the 19th Amendment is what gave women the right to vote. And he is trying to repeal that so that women cannot vote anymore so that their fathers or husbands decide for them.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, on CNN it was one of the other pastors who brought whom tart was an anti deferment. But yes, in this world there are plenty of pastors who are, if you search their names, they would like to repeal the 19th amendment. They say that women having the right to vote has atomized the American family. Basically women can have a view separate from their husbands and that's a problem. So he has his own publishing house treating service. They have documentaries about how to raise up boys in a world that is men to be more manly. It is the next generation. But you don't have to buy a DVD now. You can just subscribe to the streaming service and get your propaganda out.

[Lola Blanc]

Well and, and, or just go on social media and go on. Yeah, TikTok. Right. I imagine, I mean that's not what my algorithm shows me, but I imagine there are quite a few people who are getting that kind of content in their algorithm.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is there one of these like evangelical books or films that really stands out to you as like whoa, that's the craziest.

[Sarah Stancorb]

I'm trying to remember if it was the book or there was a book and a film. So Return of the Daughters is something that was very meaningful for some women. And again this was at time fringe, but it completely changed the way people approach raising their girls into grown women. And the idea was until you come of age and are married, you are to be a stay at home daughter. So you're under your father's authority. When you do get married to a man that your father has approved of, then you move under your husband's authority. And so this created lots of handy excuses for not educating girls, not sending them off to college where they learn about feminism and Marxism and all the scary things that are out there. Instead, keep them home, keep them safe, keep them from being exposed to an external world that may teach them they're of some other value. And I think for the families that watch that film, it just. It changed the structure of their daughter's lot.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, what was it called? Return.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Return of the Daughters book or that there was a part or book and film. They basically said the same thing.

[Lola Blanc]

It sounds like a sequel to a horror film or something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, it does. And Stay at Home Daughter. That is diabolical.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. How prevalent is that idea in evangelical culture now?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So, well, have you heard of Tradwives?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So I did an article. I wrote an article for Elle that I think published in May. And in the article, I interviewed a group of women and then a woman who's like standalone former tradwife. So they were not necessarily raised with the terms to at home daughter. Some were familiar with it. Some of their families got these catalogs, but they were raised to believe they needed to be submissive to their father until they got married and then would be submissive to their husband. And what, they weren't on TikTok, they weren't on Instagram, what it was like to be a submissive woman. They just lived it. So there's probably a gradient scale of what that submission looks like. The more extreme end is this model. We actually use the term stay at home daughter. But the idea that you have to submit to your father until you submit your husband, that's baked into a lot of the Christian right.

[Lola Blanc]

Which brings me to Bill Gothard and the iblp. Yeah, we've talked about them a bit, but can you give us a refresher on who he is and what that was?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So Bill Gothard, I hate to call people teachers, like, they talked about their teachings. He was a 1970s, 80s, 90s Christian influencer, so he also had his own publishing house. He opened training centers all over the country, a few other places around the world. He was the head of a parachurch organization. So he did not lead a church. Instead, he offered his teachings by way of books or lectures that you could get as a DVD and show at your church. And he also hosted conferences. One of his big money makers was his role with homeschool movement. So he. There was publishing house created curricula that basically did not educate these kids, but purported to be biblical. And in this way, he was elevated, as some people have called him, the Evangelical Pope. People outside this world had no idea who this man was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How convenient for him, Right?

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah. But then when the Duggars ended up on tlc, we had handy Poster children for what it is to be a quiverful woman. What it's like to impose obedience on many, many children, dress conservatively, live in the way that he had been teaching families to do for years.

[Lola Blanc]

I hadn't heard about the vasectomy reversal thing. Can you talk about that?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah. So this is along that same logic that you should not block God's blessings. God encourage people to either reverse having their tubes tied or usually it can be reversals. And then these kids, these reversal babies will be paraded across the stage at his conferences. At times that were enough to fill whole choirs of Vysevy reversal children who owed their lives to Goddard frequency their parents to keep having these babies.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just for reference, can you tell us how many people are at, at these conferences?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Thousands.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like a stadium full of like a. It's a rock concert but for heaven. And then there's like a choir full of. Of vasectomy reversal babies. Like, let's really take a beat and think about how many people that is and how crazy it is.

[Sarah Stancorb]

That's so crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

And these, these were like people who had in many cases already had a good number of children and were like, woo, we did that. And then their, you know, belief system is telling them, no, you have to keep going. Doesn't matter if you're exhausted, doesn't matter if you've reached your capacity or if you're in pain or whatever. Like no more money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I love that. There's no consideration for like the quality of life of the children as well. They're just. That's never a part of the equation. Like if you can afford it, if you're going to be healthy, if you're going to be able to take care of them. Like that's never.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Doesn't matter.

[Lola Blanc]

We don't care about how the children actually are.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We just. As long as we just learn souls on the earth.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also how you point out in the book that they have all this propaganda about like, there's plenty of room in the world for more children. Like you could fit the whole wide world into Jacksonville, Florida with everybody having a foot of space. And it's like, who wants that? What are you talking about? Like you need resources and stuff. It's just the logic is so circular and flawed and annoying and yeah, annoying and like. But in a way that makes me annoying is not the correct.

[Lola Blanc]

No, but I understand. It's. It's fucked up. It's scary. It's fucked up.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah, well, and just like talking to these folks, the Things they miss. Just like, even. Just educationally. Like, forget that. Not having access to health care. Forget the poverty, forget all of that. Many lived through educational neglect. They had these wisdom booklets that supposedly contained everything you'd ever need to learn from the sermon on the mound. But I didn't learn science or I didn't learn math. And the trajectory. When you meet a girl who was told, well, you're going to be a mommy, and maybe you need to learn just enough that you can present homeschool curricula, maybe by video, that's. That's your potential, even when they get away from it. And I've interviewed women who thought tooth and nail to get out and get an education. The amount of time and energy they have to spend filling in holes they didn't even know they had. About history, about science. It's very.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, every person deserves the right to know that they're horrible at math.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna say I got gaps in history too. That's just because of my own brain.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But yeah, no, it's so true. And. And just setting them up for a life where it's just circular. You know what. What else can you do? How can you leave?

[Lola Blanc]

It's a closed system. There's no understanding of how anything works outside of your system. So why would you even know to question it and question that authority, like, it's a perfect way to keep people controlled and powerless is to prevent them from getting educated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Violently angry.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. When I was reading your book and reading some of the stories you wrote about Bill Gothard's victims, for a second I thought that it was one of our former guests, Lindsay Williams. Cause it was so similar. And then realized, oh, right, they're just. He just did this to so many girls. Like this. It is the same story over and over again. Because he did it to so many girls. And for those who don't know what I'm referencing, do you want to just explain what I'm talking about?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah. So part of Gothard's influence was that he would. He would tell people even how to dress. And his description of how to dress was supposedly what was godly. So long hair, certain cut to the skirt. And then years later, as people started to share stories of harassment and assault within his training centers where these young, young kids were sent to work for free. With Cawthard, it seems he had a type. And he had these patterns of behavior that just. The grooming process is repeated over and over. And it was chilling to me, reporting on this, realizing that the. As people gave Me photos of what they look like, then that they fit, how he was telling women to dress themselves, like he had a type. And even his books, even the way he asked people, telling them, this is godly. Like, the grooming didn't start at the training center. The grooming started way, way back when their parents were in the church basement watching his dvd.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So this is like a pervert who decided to start an army of girls.

[Lola Blanc]

That were his type for him to sexually harass and inappropriately touch.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And whether that was his initial motive. That is what the allegations show happened, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Allegedly, yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. What is your take on how much of these kinds of stories of chronic abuse is endemic to evangelical Christianity versus just, oh, this is just how humans are. Sometimes there'll be people who abuse their power. Like, how much of it do you think comes from the actual, like, system and belief?

[Sarah Stancorb]

That is a question no one has asked me. So within American evangelicalism, the process for becoming a leader is usually something based upon charisma. It's a tangible gifts of personality that people can point to and say, well, God gave you that. I'm going to follow you because of these gifts. So it does not necessarily mean any theological background, certainly no background in counseling. So you end up with people of a certain personality type, often rather narcissistic, often. How should I put this? They too believe God put them in this position.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. A little bit of megalomania going on.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah. So. And that's your structure. And then within it, you have people who truly, truly want to be good for God. They're so desperate to be good in the eyes of God, they will follow a person that they think has this bit of God's blessing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And so that creates a huge vulnerability. And then you have someone who's been elevated. Whenever there are other credentials, they are elevated. And I think it's. It's a situation that at least the husbands who, you know, maybe they're abusive, maybe they're not, but if you're going to be abusive and you end up in this situation, the abuse magnifies. If you're going to be a predator and you're put in a position that you seem to be the mouthpiece for God, well then the predation expands all sorts of directions. And then I think, like, the additional layer is a fear of exposing the wrongdoing of these people that so many people have put trust into. Because you'll crush their faith.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

We'll lose the cause for the church. And so even when there is evidence, people don't want to talk about it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And that's something I think you can probably speak to Megan with the two by twos. My thought is that, like, I think, you know, that charisma elevates people in all spheres of life. Because I think we as humans are just drawn to someone who has that special thing and is acting with confidence and seems to know what they're talking about. Like, I don't necessarily think that that is exclusive to Christianity or anything, but it does seem that, like one within any belief system where you believe that one person is talking directly to God, I mean, that's going to just like it's ripe for someone to just step in and begin abusing people because they immediately have this mystical level of authority.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And even just like anyone who has special knowledge of anything, like we're in Los Angeles, that acting teachers are like some of the most abusive people on the planet in this town, because they're like, I have the secret of how to act. And it's like, bitch, no you don't.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, Keith Ranieri, you have special knowledge.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah. But that like, special knowledge person seems to be such a crucial thing. And this world is just rife with not only people with special, special knowledge, but men with special knowledge who tend to take it up a notch. And I think. I'm sorry to interrupt, Lilla, please go ahead. But I think a really good read on that is a well Trained Wife. Remember Tara Loving's book?

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So anyway.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, continue. No, I was gonna say, I, like, what does seem unique to me is maybe the, like, inherent patriarchal structure where women aren't allowed to have authority and just statistically abuse is much more often committed by men. And then when women are not allowed to speak up and not allowed to have, you know, like, they don't have any authority within this system. That, I guess is. Yeah, it makes it more likely that it will happen or it will go unaddressed.

[Sarah Stancorb]

One other element, I was listening to an old interview with Martin E. Marty, the theologian. He studied evangelicals for years and he said something like, evangelicals present to the world that they're trying to turn us back to traditions, but they are usually better than the people around them at using the new media of their time. So whether that's Billy Graham on the radio or it's Travis on Instagram, or it's Bill McLauth or back when it was his, you know, ATI DVDs, or it's Amy.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. What's her name?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Amy Simple McPherson. Go listen to that episode Y' all. With Claire Hoffman. Um, but yeah, they're so smart at using the newest media.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And so the scale expands. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The newest media while keeping you in the oldest timey clothes.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Repackaging oppressive tradition and making it seem shiny and new and exciting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's really weird. Why do you think so many women started talking about how abusive this was at the same time?

[Sarah Stancorb]

The Internet. Yeah. Honestly, it was the Internet. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's like what we saw with MeToo and church, too. It was happening years before on these blogs. Like, for sure, abuse has been happening within churches for generations. It happens all sorts of places. But in this case, people who left came of age. Many of them were just the right age to be a little pissed off at their parents and want to open up. And maybe they needed a community or maybe they just needed to tell someone what happened to them.

[Lola Blanc]

And.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And then these networks of similar people with similar experiences started to pop up. And so they saw it wasn't just me. It wasn't just me who got the shit beat out of me because James Dobson said, that's how you're going to save my soul. It's not just me who is trapped with my abusive family. It's not just me who wasn't allowed to date. It's not just me who carries so much shame around my body. It's not just all these not just means came together. And then they were able to create a vocabulary around what happened to them. And that's when they started to say, this is systemic. Like, these laws are not just my one pastor in my one church. It's this narrative that walks through all these books that our parents were reading. And they were able to start pointing out, like, Christian patriarchy is the problem. Purity culture is one of the problems. Cover up of abuse is one of these problems. And I don't know if I don't think people would have been able to create those Venn diagrams without each of them staffing up and sharing their stories.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I definitely experienced the, like, women's Facebook group era. But you talk about some women who. It was blogs. It was like, what were some of the different formats where these women started to share their stories with each other.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So a big one for the younger folks was Homeschoolers Anonymous. So that was. And that's super relevant now as we see these attacks on public education. But these were. The kids were raised to be the cultural warriors. Like, their generation was supposed to be the Joshua generation and take over the country. And, like, once they reached adulthood and Started to question what they had been taught. Then they were able to start peeking through, like, huh, what did you learn about slavery? Because when I learned about slavery was pretty messed up. So that was one recovering grace is where the allegations against Bill Gothard bubbled up. And, I mean, that was initially a website where people just talked about being an ATI kid, an Advanced Training Institute kid. No one really expected that these allegations were going to surface, let alone that it would have this quality where it was so similar, one story after another, I think another one which was less of, you know, an amalgamation of many voices. Krista Brown, who was a CB survivor from within the Southern Baptist Convention, once she came forward, she started to be overwhelmed by the number of other people's stories. And the SBC would not share our internal list, at least within Texas, that she knew existed.

[Lola Blanc]

That's the church network that she was.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Sorry, the Southern Baptist Convention, so largest evangelical body in the country.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Had a list of credibly accused predator pastors within the state of Texas that she knew existed. And they would not open that up so that churches could know, so inheritance could know. So she wrote an op ed saying, this isn't right. And then people started to email her and call her saying, this happened to me. And so over the years, as she got these stories, she collected publicly available documents and just listed them. Because SBC still has not created the database of credibly abused pastors. Their members voted for the most comprehensive list we have from the internal investigation. But honestly, that's based on what Krista Brown spent years of her life compiling.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

And when women like her do come forward and say, here are all these people who've been abusing women or girls or children or whatever, what are the patterns in terms of how some of these organizations respond?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Well, either if it's a single abuse victim, it's her fault. If it's a group of survivors or their families coming forward, they're a threat to the institution. There may be some satanic influence that's driving them. That's what they're used with. Krista, when she was first coming forward, was laughed at in a meeting with Baptist leaders. Like, it's this Jezebel mentality. And I think many of the. Especially the sexual assault victims, many were teenagers when this happened. And somehow that equates with it having been her fault. So excuse after excuse. There are cases like Jules Woodson, when she came forward, the pastor who had assaulted her confessed in front of his church. And there's a pattern because when the pastor Confesses so many times are given a standing ovation.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Good for you for confessing.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Look at this redemption.

[Lola Blanc]

And I would assume many of those same people continue to re offend. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I. I will say in the. The Two by two church, there's this very kind of way about it where it'll be like, yeah, that happened to you. We believe. We completely believe you, but shut up. Because you're gonna ruin the one true way from spreading. So, like, suck it up. Forgive them. They were wrong. You're not lying, but shut up. And that is equally as insane.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that seems like a really common response. Or just this idea that, like, well, we can't let the world know what's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Going on because we can't tarnish the.

[Lola Blanc]

Truth of God's and then the gospel won't spread.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So just like, shut up. It happened. Suck it up. Move it along.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There was one girl that was like so abused in the Two by Two church. He. He like choked her for so long that she can barely walk now because.

[Lola Blanc]

She got an anoxic brain injury.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. And she has still been called upon to forgive him.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it doesn't end. There is no point where the man is beyond forgivable. You're always expected to forgive. They're always repentable.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. I guess when you're. When the belief system like, tells you that sins can all be absolved through repentance and forgiveness. And forgiveness, then it doesn't leave room for the. The reality that people who are sexual predators don't just stop being sexual predators and need to be kept from doing that. Physically prevented from continuing to harm people. I mean, that those just. Those ideas just are incompatible. So I guess it makes sense if that's your belief system that you would think, well, God will just remove that sin from him and then he won't do it anymore.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And there is that also. Sorry, we're just having a full little discussion over here. Yeah, there is that also. Just like. And this life doesn't really, like, matter. It's really short. It's fleeting. It's all about eternity. So, like, just chill out. It's not a big deal. Life.

[Lola Blanc]

Heaven's on its way.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Heaven's on its way. Like, just let's keep marching forward for truth and God's perfect way. And the end.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. Ramble over.

[Sarah Stancorb]

It's not rambling, though. Like the number of the. There's a story from Sovereign Grace Ministries, sgm with a mother whose child, the toddler was molested by a teenager from within the church. And she was pressured to meet with and forgive this young man. And I mean, I have a catalog of horrible stories people have told me, but this mother talking about her baby's reaction to see him and her scrambling around, like, hiding under the chair, her pulling this kid up because there's still that part of her, like, she still believed in the church. She still wanted to do the right thing. This is what I have to do. And then years later, living with that memory and breaking down, telling me, like, I can't believe I did this. That, like, she put her kids, really, she went through it too, that pressure to reconcile. Like, I mean, maybe if you sinned, you need to seek God's forgiveness. But I do not think it is appropriate to demand forgiveness anyone, right? Let alone a child and their mother.

[Lola Blanc]

No. Oh, that is so sad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And one of the points that I think you made really well in this book is just that, like, a lot of the people who are abused are not sexually educated, so they don't even know that they're abused until much later in life when somebody else is like, Bill Gothard was praying by me, touching my hair and stroking my shoulder and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and stroking my breasts. And they're like, he did that to me too. I thought it was like, grandfatherly, because I didn't even. My brain wasn't even attuned to that being inappropriate. And then suddenly they have a new narrative about what happened to them. And people are like, well, why didn't you say it sooner?

[Sarah Stancorb]

It's just like, yeah, yeah, they don't have the vocabulary. And I think a lot of that is intentional, of course, like for the young people whose families regularly beat them with belts or dowel rods or any number of implements, because that is how you deal with a quote, unquote, strong willed child when they had to wear long sleeves to hide the bruises. And it was for the best that they were homeschooled so that, you know, there wouldn't be a teacher who could report it. And they have these childhoods of repeated trauma with the people they love and trust the most who are hitting them over and over because the parents think that's what God requires of them. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarah Stancorb]

No one, no one knows how to talk about child abuse. Instead, you know, you get rhetoric now that it's like drag queen brunches or whatever.

[Lola Blanc]

That's what the abuse of children is. Yeah. Like a drag queen existing near a child.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah. Instead of ongoing perpetual physical punishment Right.

[Lola Blanc]

What have you noticed in terms of patterns about like. And I guess we kind of touched.

[Megan Elizabeth]

On it a little bit.

[Lola Blanc]

But like, what has it taken for many of these women to come forward against these communities that they've been so much a part of? Just like hearing other women's stories and feeling supported. Like, what are the commonalities?

[Sarah Stancorb]

I think some of it is finding other people realizing this has happened to other people. For an alarming number, it's witnessing the self harm or suicide of friends who had a similar upbringing. They know how much they hurt. But to see someone you care about gone due to all of this, that can be a real motivating force for some. It's the oldest sister. They got out, but their little sister's still there and their family won't talk to them. They're the heretical whatever. But if they can have a place for that kid to land, if they can warn other people. I think mostly what I'm seeing now, what I'm hearing now is a lot of people saying, I feel like I left the cult and now my country has joined it. They're seeing the rise of Christian nationalism. They're seeing this draw of figures that are so much like the ones that their parents followed and it scares the hell out of them. They know what they lost getting out and they don't want that future for our country.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Yeah. Nor do we.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Nor do we.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, what. I guess maybe this is a different conversation, but do you have any like Cliff Notes version of the way that Christian nationalism is becoming such a mainstream part of American politics right now?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Cliff knows I'm not good at it.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I know it's far reaching and widespread.

[Sarah Stancorb]

I think just given the recent awareness of Doug Wilson and that our Secretary of Defense is part of his church network, that he. That Hanksett has his children in a classical Christian school. That layer of influence and then seeing Wilson drop a church plant in Washington D.C. like he is the inheritor of your bill. Co author James Dobson. So I think seeing what's happening with his movement is something to watch. Wilson has said himself he used to be fringe. I've heard plenty of evangelicals say he used to be the crazy uncle.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Sarah Stancorb]

And now he. Wilson himself says this like the country moved to him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Sarah Stancorb]

He is open about being a Christian nationalist. I wrote a story if you want to lay out a note years ago about the abuse perpetuated within his church and school system for vice. That model is what he's hoping to see nationally. He wants to make his hometown a Christian town, make America a Christian nation in this model, and then a Christian world. All that said, his town is still not a Christian town. He's like his version of Christianity.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, give it a couple years.

[Sarah Stancorb]

He's trying. There's stuff going on with real estate. There's been plenty of attempts. But I think for those who want to resist, this single mode of thought being the motivating factor for us moving forward, there's a small town called Moscow, Idaho, that has been resisting Wilson all along. So it all is not lost. But his type of influence is certainly spreading and is now normalized within our.

[Lola Blanc]

Government officials, which is so crazy to me. Like, I know that ideas conflicting with other ideas does not deter people from still holding them. But this idea that this is, like, somehow American to do this when literally the First Amendment is the freedom of religion. The fact that there are so many people and it is now becoming more and more mainstream to try to convert America into a theocracy is the most un American thing I can possibly imagine. I mean, it's literally not the point of the place. So it always terrifies me. But I'm glad we are having conversations like these to remind people to fight back. And I'm also curious, based on all of these incredible survivors and warriors that you've talked to who have come out against systems that are much bigger than them to varying degrees of success, of course. But for a listener who maybe sees something happening in their own community that has not been addressed, are there any words of wisdom or things you've learned from hearing these stories that you would say to them?

[Sarah Stancorb]

So document, like, keep your receipts. I will say homeschoolers are the most amazing sources a reporter can find because they keep everything. They screenshot everything. And I think a lot of these communities, the results from people not believing them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So they keep their evidence. So, like, start accumulating your evidence and then you don't have to go to your pastoral authority. That is not your authority. If they are not protecting you or the people you love, that is not your authority. Go to the police. If that doesn't work, find a reporter or start a website. Like many, many, many of these folks shared information anonymously. There is now a means to expose wrongdoing. And I mean, I talk about this a little bit in the book. There's an ecosystem of bloggers. Warper watch as a good one. Watch keep. I don't know what they've closed, but they break a lot of these stories. And because they break the stories, then reporters Instead of taking on a liability which can scare a lot of editors off, they can refer to the blog post and say, look what has been reported online on this blog. And that gets the information out. If your goal is truth telling, there is a way. But, like, get. Get your evidence squared away, because people will not want to believe you. But there's a tipping point where if you can show what actually has happened, you can get most people there.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

That's really helpful. That's really practical advice. Thank you.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you for this book and all of the work you've done. It's so comprehensive, it's so important, and it really sheds a light on a lot of the things that we need to keep working on.

[Lola Blanc]

Indeed. Do you have anything else you'd like to add? Is there anything we missed?

[Sarah Stancorb]

I feel like we covered. We covered the book. If you want, I can send some links to just, like, magazine stories.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Sarah Stancorb]

If people want bits and pieces of some of this, yeah, that'd be great. Because it's been years of covering these types of stories. So you can either see it in the book or if you just need a quick kind of tutorial, it's out there.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. And can you remind us the name of your book and where people can find it?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Disobedient Women is. I mean, it should be everywhere still.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yay.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Anywhere you buy books. A few weeks ago, bookshop, it was. It was sold out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing. Yeah.

[Sarah Stancorb]

This new awareness of Doug Wilson seems to have gotten people interested in the book, which is good because it's not just him. I feel like the more we can understand all of this is interconnected, the better. But check bookshelf. Like, go to Indie bookstore.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can people follow you on Instagram or online? Is there. Do you share?

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah, yeah, I'm on Insta. I'm sort of on TikTok.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. What's your name? How do we follow you?

[Sarah Stancorb]

It's Sarah. Stan Korb. I'm easy to find. I'm the only one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you so much, Sarah. It was so nice to talk to you.

[Sarah Stancorb]

So great talking to you. Thanks.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, thanks to Sarah for coming on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Indeed.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan, here's the part where I ask you, would you join the Quiverful Movement?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hell, no. I won't even have one kid.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. You don't want kids at all, huh?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Imagine No. If you thought you had to, I.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Would not be okay. In fact, I. I would not do it even if I was a part of the movement.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

If you had that belief system though, and you felt like you thought you had to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I have a lot of, like, phobia around it.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, really?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was just in a lot of, like, people giving birth spaces.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. I was not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, so.

[Lola Blanc]

And I do want children.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of course, if I'm, if my brain is telling me that something is right, I'm not like, too smart to do it or anything, so maybe I would just get over it and have a bunch of children. But I'm so grateful that wasn't part of my story because.

[Lola Blanc]

Which it feels so adjacent. Like, do the two by twos believe that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, it's just interesting how the two by twos were able to keep some sense of, like, normality in the mix where, you know, there, there wasn't, as far as I know, an encouragement to have a million children.

[Lola Blanc]

I would so assume that that would be the goal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, no, homeschooling really, like, kind of went mainstream.

[Lola Blanc]

I actually don't really have a sense of how true this is these days. But when I was growing up, the joke about Mormons was they had a million children. All Mormons had so many kids. Not nearly as many as, like, polygamous Mormons, obviously, or fundamentalist Mormons. But, you know, that was like the joke in school. Everyone would be like, oh, does. Does your family have seven kids? Or whatever?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. I mean, seven kids still is moderate compared to these quiverful movements where it'd be like, you have seven kids and then get your vasectomy undone and have seven more.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I don't know, I don't wanna sound like I, I'm looking down upon it or anything like that. You know what I mean? Obviously it's not right or fair.

[Lola Blanc]

It wouldn't be the indoctrination that would appeal to you uniquely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not.

[Lola Blanc]

I, I think that I don't, I don't want to. I'm very, very anti patriarchal values. But I do wanna be a mother. And I think the thing that appeals to me, which maybe you can hear, I think I say something like this in the interview and is the idea that, like, well, if people with wrong ideas about the world are having a million children, then to combat that, yes, we should also be putting lots of children on the earth who can stand for what is right. You know what I mean? Like, I could see myself falling into that. But I also do not want that many kids. I mean, I'd like a few kids. Yeah, that seems nice. Yeah. I'm good on more than that. Yeah, yeah. Although that said, households with the huge families bustling around, as long as there's enough help and enough money, I don't know, it could be fun. Who knows? We'll see.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Who knows? Exactly. The environment's kind of a thing in my mind, but that's fine.

[Lola Blanc]

Adoption. Adoption.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Adoption.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of Trust Me. We cannot wait to see you again next week. Go. Leave the episode five stars. The podcast, not the episode, the podcast in general. And you know, if you don't want to write a five star, as we always say, then just don't read it at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me.

[Sarah Stancorb]

Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

Goodbye. This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMe podcast or on TikTok USMecult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or Apple Wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lola Blanc]

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