Sarma Melngailis - Part 1: Bad Vegan, Meeting Mr. Fox, and Early Red Flags

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Sarma Melngailis – Part 1: Bad Vegan, Meeting Mr. Fox, and Early Red Flags
Release Date: October 22, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Sarma Melngailis

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Episode Overview

In this revealing and empathetic conversation, Lola and Megan sit down with Sarma Melngailis—restaurateur, author of Girl with the Duck Tattoo, and the subject of the docuseries Bad Vegan. With candor and vulnerability, Sarma recounts her journey from a thriving New York businesswoman to the victim of a sophisticated, personal con orchestrated through manipulation, coercion, and emotional exploitation. Part 1 explores Sarma’s vibrant life before meeting “Mr. Fox,” her first encounters with him online, the web of red flags she missed, and the incremental tactics he used to insinuate himself into her life and finances. Along the way, the hosts draw essential parallels to coercive abuse, cult behavior, and the psychology underlying victimization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Success Before the Fall

• Sarma shares her impressive background on Wall Street and the transition to culinary school, launching acclaimed vegan restaurant Pure Food and Wine and the One Lucky Duck brand.
  • Sarma: “I worked in investment banking and private equity… I left and went to culinary school, and I ended up in the restaurant business. Pure Food and Wine was my life’s purpose.” (12:37)
• Reflects on how personal fulfillment, not money, was always her motivation.
  • Sarma: “For me, money was always a tool to build my business... I never had any interest in extravagant spending.” (13:32)
• Life was thriving yet emotionally fragile: Sarma describes exhaustion, heartbreak, and a sense of vulnerability after a transformative breakup—an ideal entry point for a manipulator.

Introducing “Mr. Fox”: The Digital Seducer

• Sarma recounts her initial connection with “Mr. Fox” via Twitter, made disarmingly normal by the impression that mutual friend Alec Baldwin knew him.
  • Sarma: “Part of my guard was taken down because there was this perceived legitimacy... I assumed he and Alec knew each other.” (22:00)
• Early communication was characterized by humor, charm, and an uncanny skill at Words With Friends, which Sarma explains helped build rapport and fascination.
• The hosts probe the subtlety of grooming: the calculated mystery, strategic questioning, mirroring of interests, and the intentional delay in IRL meeting—all designed to deepen attachment.

The Power of Attention and Manipulation Tactics

• Sarma now recognizes that Mr. Fox’s flood of personal questions, deep interest, and mirroring were classic hallmarks of grooming and manipulation—information gathering, not real connection.
  • Sarma: “He was asking me lots of questions and paying so much attention… Back then, I was just eating up that kind of attention.” (27:51)
  • Lola (on grooming): “He was just asking me questions and molding himself according to the answers.” (27:51)
• Upon finally meeting face-to-face, Sarma is disappointed, but proximity and persistence allow Mr. Fox to “worm his way back in,” especially after borrowing money, which creates a financial tether. (32:33)

The Vulnerability Window

• Hosts emphasize that heartbreak, big life transitions, and exhaustion are prime windows for predators to gain influence, echoing patterns they see with cults and coercive control.
  • Megan: “Breakups, deaths, big life changes... You’re just a sitting duck for this kind of thing.” (18:36)

Coercion, Gaslighting & the Trauma Bond

• Mr. Fox’s lies, relentless communication, and shifting explanations fostered confusion, chronic destabilization, and eventually trauma bonding.
  • Sarma: “He would do some sort of sorcery on me so that by the end of the weekend, I'd somehow loaned him more money. ...It was a tether.” (49:20)
• Discusses the unique pain of being both tormented and comforted by the same person—a dynamic at the core of trauma bonding.
  • Sarma: “He’s the only one who knows about the hell that he’s putting you through, and therefore he’s the only one who can comfort me.” (50:34)

Red Flags, Gut Instincts, and Overriding Fear

• Sarma describes the moment she received a photo that revealed Mr. Fox’s full face and felt an instinctive jolt of fear, which she ignored—a lesson now not lost on her.
  • Sarma: “His eyes were so intense and dark, I was scared. The moment I looked at the text, I immediately felt a jolt of fear. ...At the time, I just overrode it.” (52:30)
• The group underscores how many victims override gut feelings out of politeness, self-doubt, or simple disbelief that someone would fabricate something so outrageous.
• Discusses the difficulties of intervening: Well-meaning friends like “Danny” who warned Sarma were rebuffed, mirroring classic cult psychology—direct challenges often don’t work.

The Money Spiral—How the Scam Escalated

• The first monetary request is small and designed as a dire urgent emergency—classic con artist maneuver. Over time, the amount and stakes escalate, leveraging guilt, confusion, and obligation.
  • Sarma: “It was early on enough that I, at that point, had no reason to be angry at him... He acted like it was this sort of temporary crazy emergency.” (46:49)
  • Ultimately, Mr. Fox scammed over $2 million via a combination of personal, business, and borrowed funds. (64:52)
• Mr. Fox’s demands and narrative always shift—when one goal is met, he moves the goalpost.
• He borrowed not only from Sarma but from others (including men), highlighting that conning is rarely limited to a single victim.

The Relentlessness of Sociopathic Control

• The hosts and Sarma discuss how sociopaths weaponize energy, endless communication, confusion, and persistence (“battering”) to wear down resistance.
  • Sarma: “If somebody bombards you with really long text messages… anything where you wonder, 'how can they possibly put so much time and energy into this?'—that’s a red flag.” (59:53)
• Sarma identifies herself as someone with an autism diagnosis, which made her especially vulnerable to taking people at face value—a reminder that wiring or neurodivergence can impact susceptibility.

The Faux Authority and Grandiose Promises

• Mr. Fox wove a story of being a Black Ops operator, forwarding articles for Sarma to “connect the dots,” implying he worked in secret intelligence and was there to protect her. His secretive stories created mystique but sowed confusion and dependence.
  • Sarma: “He had been talking about something similar the week before... He just had so much confidence about it all that it was like, okay.” (39:00)

Pivotal Moments & Notable Quotes

Early Red Flags and Vulnerability

• Lola: “There’s always this misconception that this kind of thing happens to people who, you know, aren’t doing these amazing things with their lives. You’re, like, a perfect example of somebody who is really smart, and you have all the accolades to prove it.” (11:12)

On Gaslighting and the Trauma Bond

• Lola: “When that person is both the creator of all your problems and the one dangling all the solutions, that is the trauma bond. That feels like love.” (42:16)

On Gut Instincts

• Sarma: “If you felt that jolt of fear, like, your body knows and run away from that.” (53:35)

Regarding Those Who Try to Help

• Sarma (on Danny’s warnings): “It’s part of the reason why people erroneously think that if they just confront somebody... you got to get away from them... you think it’s going to work but very often it won’t work.” (57:20)

The Reality of Manipulation and Victim Blaming

• Lola: “We just don’t understand the psychology of what happens in the mind of somebody who’s being abused to that extent. The victim blaming is crazy.” (04:32)

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Notable Timestamps

• 11:36 – Sarma’s career trajectory: Wall Street to culinary school to Pure Food and Wine.
• 15:04 – Describing the restaurant’s unique culture and energy.
• 18:36 – The significance of breakups and vulnerability.
• 22:00 – Meeting Mr. Fox via Twitter through Alec Baldwin.
• 26:44 – Sarma’s confusion & uncertainty about Mr. Fox’s true identity.
• 32:33 – The turning point—first monetary request, the start of financial dependence.
• 49:20 – The tether of debt and recurring manipulation.
• 52:30 – Sarma’s immediate gut fear upon seeing Mr. Fox’s face.
• 57:20 – How direct warnings rarely work—Danny’s failed intervention.
• 59:01 – Sarma on being browbeaten into marriage.
• 64:52 – Final toll: Over $2 million scammed.

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Memorable Moments

• Sarma’s realization: “I had this unfortunate repeating pattern of allowing dudes into my life who then came [for] a bunch of my resources.” (14:10)
• On giving Mr. Fox a chance to explain after discovering his criminal record:

  “So naturally, I blocked all communication with him... Just kidding. I did not do that. Instead... I let him explain.” (42:51)

• On boundary violation:
  Sarma recounts how Mr. Fox maneuvered himself into staying at her mother’s house, exploiting her politeness and discomfort with confrontation. (36:23)
• Sarma’s warning: “I can’t think of any time I’ve ever felt fear or wary of somebody and then they turned out to be fine, you know what I mean?” (54:49)
• Hosts’ reflection:

  “We always say: remember to trust your gut... Sometimes your body just knows some shit. If you notice something, pay attention to it.” (54:38)

• Sarma’s final thought on susceptibility:

  “They [manipulators] do it to other intelligent, accomplished people.” (63:36)

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Takeaways & Themes

• Anyone—regardless of intelligence, career, or background—can fall prey to manipulation given the right circumstances.
• Perpetrators use calculated mystery, strategic compassion, relentless messaging, and financial entanglements to build control and dependence.
• Red flags—especially gut-level fear or discomfort—are often overridden due to socialization, optimism, or disbelief that people could truly be so exploitative.
• Intervention with a friend or loved one in a coercive relationship must maintain the relationship, as direct attacks on beliefs rarely work and can backfire.
• Stories like Sarma’s demonstrate the vital importance of self-compassion, education, and awareness about the nuanced mechanics of manipulation.

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What’s Next

This episode concludes part one of Sarma’s harrowing story. In part two, the conversation will dive deeper into the full extent of the scam, the unraveling of Sarma’s business and life, and her path toward recovery and understanding.

Final Note from Lola:
“These stories matter. They inoculate us. At least to some extent.” (67:33)

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For new listeners and survivors alike, this episode is a cautionary, deeply human tale of how the confluence of vulnerability, trust, and calculated manipulation can upend even the most vibrant of lives.

Transcript

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is exactly right.

[Sarma Melangailis]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Sarma Melangailis]

Happen to his family?

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[Lola Blanc]

On a story about the Murdaughs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.

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[Sarma Melangailis]

It's only cheating if you get caught.

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[Sarma Melangailis]

Trust me.

[Trust Me Podcast Promo Voice]

Do you trust me?

[Sarma Melangailis]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me.

[Trust Me Podcast Promo Voice]

This is the truth.

[Sarma Melangailis]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two lucky ducks who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And today is part one with our guest, Sarma Melangailis, author of the Girl with the Duck Tattoo, whom you may know from the docuseries Bad Vegan in Part one. Today we're going to talk about her life as the owner of a successful vegan restaurant in New York. How she met the man who called himself Mr. Fox on Twitter, when he seemed to know her friend Alec Baldwin, her first impressions of him in real life, and some of the initial red flags that she missed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We'll get into the way he slowly integrated himself into her life. How he first started asking for money in a way that at first seemed innocuous, and some of the many manipulation tactics he used to coerce her into transferring an astronomical amount of money to him and began ripping her perfectly curated life to shreds.

[Lola Blanc]

And we will continue in Part two next week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We sure will.

[Lola Blanc]

What a book.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Holy moly.

[Lola Blanc]

What a. What a, like, fascinating and challenging read.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Just to see the text exchange or the Gchat exchanges between them.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Challenging in, like, a way that makes you want to keep reading.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. It's like, I was, like, transfixed, but also just, like, so upset.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's very upsetting. You have to get it, guys.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Lola Blanc]

Before we jump in with Sarma, Megan, I just, you know, would love to know what your cultiest thing of the week is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, sure.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

So I'm watching the Diddy sentencing unfold, and it's a very disappointing amount of time that he's being given. It looks like it's four years, and.

[Lola Blanc]

Four years is nothing. Nothing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And, you know, a lot of people gave testimonies against him, and there's just. Still. The Sarma interview just brings to light how little we still know about coercive control and how little the court system takes it into account. And, I mean, if you just read some of these exchanges that his defense used that are like, but Cassie said, I love you, you know, after he did this thing, and you're like, I'm gonna freak out. Like, you can't wrap your mind around it. So. 120 people have accused him of things. I know multiple people, including Cassie, testified in court. I know that some are men, but we don't have the system yet to fully understand this kind of person who I believe is very much like the person Sarma encountered and the kind of destruction that they can cause.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah, we just don't understand the psychology of what happens in the mind of somebody who is being abused to that extent. Like, the victim blaming is crazy. It's crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

Just. Just our. Just the leader of our country. Just the leader of our country. That's all. I mean, this is gonna come out, you know, way after any of this podcast episode. Yes, way after any of this happened. So it's not like it's necessarily the most timely thing in the world, but like, that speech he gave about how America is under invasion from within. We're under invasion from within. This is the quote. No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms. I mean, that's just like trying to turn Americans against other Americans and demonizing people in such a. What is the word that I want? Bullshit way as a justification for sending ice in the National Guard and the military to like try to turn our violent forces against the citizens of America. It's just crazy. It's so crazy. On top of the fact that like there are people in the government wearing like little gold pins of his head. I'm sorry, it's giving Mao.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's giving cultural revolution. It's giving icon worship, you know. And then on top of all that, just like removing pages from government websites that had information on them because they don't align with how he would like to present the government. It's so crazy.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's quite a time to be alive.

[Lola Blanc]

It's such a time to be alive. It's like, I don't wanna talk about it too much. Cause I don't wanna like over trumpify things. But like every day I'm like, what?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And so this is one of those days where I'm like, there's just such an onslaught of black and white thinking, demonization. Like my point of view is the only valid one. Do not question, do not look to other sources. Ignore history, ignore science. Like there's just so much of that going on that it's wild. And people in other countries are very worried for us. By the way, like, yeah, everyone I talked to in Europe, I was like, are you okay?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, no, we're not.

[Lola Blanc]

This is very bad. So that's me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, cool. Well, everything's crazy. Shall we delve into something also crazy?

[Lola Blanc]

Also crazy? Yeah, let's do it.

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[Sarma Melangailis]

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Sarma Mel Gylis to Trust me. Thank you so much for being in with us. We are so stoked.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Lola Blanc]

First of all, I have to shout out the similarities between you and my mom's stories.

[Sarma Melangailis]

So I listened to your mom's story earlier today.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God, really?

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah. And the weird thing is as I was listening to it, I was like, something about her sounds really familiar. And then it all clicked and I realized that Stephen Hawson once put us in touch like a few years ago.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh my God.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And I think it was at a time when I was, I mean, as you, you know, on the other side of these things, you're kind of can be very overwhelmed and bombarded by stuff and somehow I don't think we were ever really connected other than maybe through email real quick. But I remember that you had put us in touch. And yeah, listening to your mom's story was heartbreaking and there was a lot that resonated. But man, that's a heartbreaking story. Holy shit.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, I've been reading your book for the past two Days, I've been calling my mom every few hours and being like, you have to read this part. So any. Anyway, that's a side note. I hope you guys connect. But let's start at the beginning of your story. First of all, I love how you. We both. We talked about this before. We love how you really established, like, how amazing your life was and all of these things that you did before meeting this man. Like, there's always this misconception that this kind of thing happens to people who, you know, aren't doing these amazing things with their lives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're, like, a perfect example of somebody who is really smart, and you have all the accolades to prove it, you know, so we just want to maybe start there to just lay the ground. Juice.

[Lola Blanc]

That's what my stepdad says, but it's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, she does make juice. Juice. Yeah. Okay. So.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Where do we even begin with all your accomplishments.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you tell us about your Wall street era?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Well, on the other side of college, I ended up doing the Wall street thing. So I, you know, I worked in an investment bank, and then I worked in private equity at Bain Capital. And, you know, I had these great jobs that were very prestigious, and, you know, if I stayed in them, I would have earned boatloads of money. But I wasn't. I wasn't passionate about that whole world of Wall street. And I just never felt like I really had anything in common with people in that world. And so I ended up leaving and going to culinary school, and then I ended up in the restaurant business. And I'm not sure how far in my book you got, but I talk about a relationship I was in. This is the man with whom I first opened Pure Food and Wine, which is the restaurant for which I was known, and that was my life's purpose in that business. And then the. The other brand that I started, one Lucky Duck. But the guy that I originally opened the restaurant with, I call him My first time at the. At the rodeo. You know, I avoid using certain words because I don't. It's kind of inflammatory to use certain labels. But, yeah, he was my first time with that type of a person who lacks empathy and is exploitative and manipulative and ends up draining you of your funds and tries to convince you that you're the crazy one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, exactly. And so much of the story does involve funds and money and stuff, and I think it's just important to put up front. You were married to a very wealthy man for a year and a half and had the whole world at your fingertips, you know, you, you, you have the Hamptons, the whatever. And it just. Money isn't really what seems to be one of your main needs of like what it takes to make you feel whole. And you kind of were like, I wanna pursue my passions.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, I mean, it's complicated because as you're saying that I'm going, oh my God, I really need money right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Needing money and loving money, I guess those are different exactly when you need.

[Sarma Melangailis]

It for like basic safety and is very different from what I never had any interest in whatsoever was this sort of extravagant spending and you know, sort of people who buy handbags and expensive shoes and all of that. For me, money was always a tool to, you know, build my business and to do it independently. But yeah, I was married for a while to a guy who was, you know, he was a good person and you know, I got divorced after a year and a half, but I could have had that life where I would have been financially set for the rest of time and, and even on your.

[Lola Blanc]

Own, you were making great money in finance.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, I had made a bunch of money before in finance and at Bain Capital we co. You can co invest while you're there. And I had knowing that those deals return very often huge numbers. I was putting co investments on credit cards and whatnot. But I co invested a lot. And a lot of that money did come back over time. But it all went into this guy Matthew's businesses and got sucked up that way by him. So yeah, I had this unfortunate repeating pattern of allowing dudes into my life who then came a bunch of my resources.

[Lola Blanc]

You gotta talk to my mom because it was the same, it was the same with her. So tell us about pure food and wine, because the way you describe it, it sounds like such a beautiful place. I want to go there, I want to see, I want to be cozy and like go be surrounded by the food and the love. Like, can you talk about what this meant to you and what this was.

[Sarma Melangailis]

The restaurant was really, really, really special and beautiful. And as I, you know, where I sit, I'm located very close to it because I actually moved back here to reopen in the same space. I don't know if it's going to happen. A lot of things happened and I've been kind of put through the wringer again a bit or a lot. But it was a really, really special restaurant and I think if I could give myself, if I could like pat myself on the back and give myself credit, it would be in populating it with the right people and cultivating an atmosphere where really good people like to work there. They felt good working there. You know, it sounds cliche to say that we were like a family because a lot of restaurants say that, but we really, really were. And I think that people who came there could feel that energy. And so we had tons of regulars. I mean, it was a, it was a raw vegan restaurant. That makes it sound really unappealing, but our food was incredibly good. And every day people would come in and they were completely shocked by what they were eating and loved it. And we had tons and tons of regulars who were not remotely vegan or raw. And probably on any given night, more than half the people there would not call themselves vegan. It just, it has such a good atmosphere and such a good buzz. And the environment was really warm and cozy and kind of sexy. And there's a lot of dark wood and red. And we had a really great cocktail list that we made these amazing cocktails with sucky. And it was just a beautiful, beautiful place. And then I had started a brand called One Lucky Duck, which was like the more accessible side of it that, you know, for many years we had products in 30 whole food stores and we made these really good packaged cookies and snacks and they're really good for kids and good for everybody. And, and the juice bar and the takeaway, which is a more easily expandable side of the business, was all branded One Lucky Duck. So I, I was very poised to expand in a big, big way.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I remember seeing this, like I, I was one of those girls who was on, you know, tmz. I'm sorry, I was. Or just like on some of the, the reading the stupid shit. And I remember seeing your brand sometimes like on celebrities, you know, it was kind of like a hot, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

It was a hot spot.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was a hot spot.

[Lola Blanc]

And yeah, you talk about how many celebrities were in there all the time. It's like constantly being mentioned in magazines.

[Megan Elizabeth]

There, you know, it's. It's a thing.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, that. I mean, that part of it was fun. That was just like an extra layer of fun is that I have endless stories and I didn't put a whole lot of them. I put hardly any of it in the book. I had some in my original draft. But my, you know, my book is quite lengthy and I had to make it digestible, so I took a lot of that out. But I, I really want to write a follow up book where there's a lot of fun stories I could include. Just like the most random stories about different celebrities that were there. This just made it, that was like an extra layer that made it really fun.

[Lola Blanc]

That's all to say. You were doing really well.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes. But that being said, you know, I realize now, and I mean, I realized it then, but I was very overwhelmed and exhausted and overworked and really wanted to expand the business, but had never found the right partner. And I think at home, I think I was quietly depressed. So that when I got home and then what happened is I had been in this beautiful relationship for four years that and we split up and then I was alone and it was just me and my dog. And that's part of what made it a good time for some accreditor to come in and take over.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that's an important pause right there. Because it is. We always say breakups, deaths, big life changes. Big life changes. You're just a sitting duck, one might say for oh no, are we going.

[Lola Blanc]

To do that the whole episode?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Juice, sitting duck. No, we're not. It's just. It was like the perfect combination of life events to make you very vulnerable.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah. And being already overwhelmed and tired and sort of exhausted and heartbroken. Yeah, he got me at the right time.

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[Sarma Melangailis]

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[Lola Blanc]

Tell us about how you first encountered Mr. Fox.

[Sarma Melangailis]

It was on what was called Twitter and I'll continue calling it Twitter. And I had, speaking of celebrities, I'd had a sort of a friendship relationship situation with Alec Baldwin and he was late to Twitter and I guess he must have joined and then somehow Mr. Fox was very active on Twitter and for whatever reason, from my perspective, Alec had just joined Twitter. So we followed each other and there was some wind banter back and forth between him and this guy who I just sort of assumed that Alec must have somehow known him because he followed him on Twitter. And I ended up in a back and forth with that guy and joining into the conversation. And then that's how it started. That's how we got to know each other and then it moved to DMs. So from the start that was a way in which part of my guard wasn't there or was taken down because there was this perceived legitimacy that I somehow just assumed that he and Alec knew each other somehow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How did Alec and him even find each other? Does did Alec ever tell you that?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I've only spoken to Alec once on the other side of all this and I didn't get to ask him about that. But I mean my guess is that because he had just joined Twitter and obviously when a famous person joins any social media, they're following just, like, shoots up really fast. I think this guy, Mr. Fox, just got lucky and followed Alec immediately and started engaging with him. And he was. He could be really funny, which is annoying. It pisses me off. But. But he could be really funny and witty. And so Alec must have just followed him back, and then they continued chatting.

[Lola Blanc]

In the heyday of Twitter, you did just follow people. Cause they were funny. A lot of people got Twitter famous just for being funny. This was not unusual.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And might I add that I feel like a lot of the basis of that was Alec and also his uncanny ability to be good at Words With Friends. I feel like Words with Friends is a huge part of this story because he had some unusual genius at playing this game. And once you start reading the text later on and, like, grammar is weird and stuff, you're like, how was he so good at knowing words?

[Sarma Melangailis]

It's.

[Lola Blanc]

Was he cheating? Do we think he was cheating?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't think he was. Do we think he was cheating? No.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I know. I mean, I. I thought that in the beginning, too. So what happened was, you know, I would. I communicated with Mr. Fox in DMs, and then I think somehow we knew that we both liked to play Words with Friends, or he must have seen that I liked it, so therefore he would like it too, automatically. But anyway, we ended up playing Words With Friends against each other and also chatting into sort of DMs within that app. And, yeah, he was really, really good at it. And of course, I suspected that maybe he was using one of those cheat apps. But later on, when he was in person with me, like, I'd be playing a game with somebody else, and he would take my phone and look at it and then tell me what word to put in, and he wouldn't have consulted in the app. So I think he just has one of those brains. He was able to rattle off a lot of information and facts and know a lot of stuff. So I think he just had one of those brains, unfortunately.

[Lola Blanc]

So as your relationship grew online, what did you think of him? What did you think he. Who did you think he was?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I think part of the problem is I never really understood who he was, unfortunately. That was one of the things that I realize now. I probably have a tendency. You know, it's like you want answers, you want closure, you want to understand who somebody is. So as long as there's, like, these unanswered questions and mystery, you're always trying to find out more. So even after I met him, and I was very Underwhelmed and kind of thought, shit, I really invested a lot into that. And he wasn't what I thought. And, I mean, I would just caution anybody against forming a relationship and any kind of attachment to anybody online and long distance before meeting them in person physically. And not just because somebody might be misrepresenting how they look in photos, but because it's just all about your people's energy and pheromones. And I'm sure there's so many things that we sense when we're in somebody's presence that we don't sense when it's online. But, you know, he presented himself as this very mysterious figure, and I was always unsure of the entire time. I was kind of unsure of everything. But it was that way from the start. And I thought after I first met him finally in person that, well, he wasn't really what I expected, and I guess that's that. But he was able to eventually worm his way back into my life over and over and over again.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It all seems very by design. Like, he left enough questions unanswered for you to kind of fill them in in your mind and kind of create a fantasy. Then he also left this really big anticipation window for you to meet him. So you are able to kind of like, I don't know, Stew.

[Lola Blanc]

You already formed an attachment to this idea of him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He had a Boston accent. You kind of made a little joke about it. He dropped that. Like, this man was on from the get.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, he was obviously assessing you and what your vulnerabilities were.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the questions. The. He just kept asking you questions and questions and questions. And, like, it felt like him really wanting to get to know you. But then while you're reading it back, you're like, oh, my God, Yes.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I mean, I had a blog on our website back then. I already put out so much very personal information about myself that was all there for him to read. He was also asking me lots of questions and paying so much attention to me that now I see things and recognize what's happening much more in any type of a situation. But back then, I was just sort of eating up that kind of attention. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

My good friend had a breakup with someone who had extremely antisocial tendencies. And looking back, reflecting back on it, she was like. It felt like we were connecting and like he was giving me attention, but he was just asking me questions and molding himself according to the answers over time. And it just felt so good at the time that I didn't identify it, but that's something I just, like, had never thought about before.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, well, that's the thing. Like sociopaths or people like this don't count on people ever thinking of these things.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Because when someone asks you about yourself, generally, it's like, oh, they're showing interest and curiosity and they want to get to know me. Which is a sign of somebody caring.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So if we, like, look at these people through our normal brain and what we would be doing, we get a completely different story about what they're doing, which is just collecting information.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes. And that's why it's, you know, it's too bad that, like, workplace romance is so frowned upon, because I feel like in a work context, at least, when people used to go to offices more than they do now. But getting to know people in that context is a really healthy way to meet somebody because you see, you learn a lot about them, seeing them interacting with other people, and you learn about them not in the context of just somebody showing up, listening to what you're saying, and then being like, oh, you like, you know, whatever, Rollerblading. So do I. You know, like.

[Lola Blanc]

That'S always how the conversation goes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you have very specific wants. You know, you want to create an P.S. i love how veganism can become a cult in and of itself, but you kept this very, like, open. Like, sometimes you might try a little this, like, it's just an option. Most people eating here sometimes aren't vegan. It's. It's just something to try and, like, I don't know, I thought it was cool that you didn't make it. Cultivated.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And most of the. I think even. Even amongst the staff, I. I mean, I don't. I don't know the number, but I think more than half the people working there wouldn't identify as vegan. Right, Right. Actually, easily more than half wouldn't identify as vegan. And all of that was really important to me. I didn't want it to be a place where you walk in and feel any kind of vibe of. Of judgment. So, yeah, I love that.

[Lola Blanc]

I do feel judged by people.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Eden.

[Lola Blanc]

Eden, I want to hear a little bit more about when you did meet in real life and how it didn't. It didn't connect with the person you had sort of constructed based on his online Persona. What did you think at first?

[Sarma Melangailis]

Well, the problem is I was really nervous, and so I was drinking beers on an empty stomach. And, you know, again, this is one of the things I would caution people against is allowing so much time to go by where the excitement would build up. I had so much invested in it that I wanted it to all be all right. And I did, you know, I just did so many things not right. I mean, I let him come to my apartment right away, which was just dumb.

[Lola Blanc]

Listen, I've done that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it's important to note that he's been building himself up as, like, he hasn't been saying it outrightly, but he's almost like a special ops like, like military dude. Like, I can pick you up under one arm, your dog under the other. Like, I'm a safe, safe person.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I mean, as I detail in the book, and I think I even wrote that, I felt like, you know, hurling on the keyboard while I was writing this part because I. It's just gross, you know, But I just, I'd also. I had been single for quite a while. I didn't date anybody after that, after that breakup. And so I'd been on my own for more than six months. And. Yeah, so we sort of like hooked up immediately. And of course I wish I hadn't done that, but I did.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, we've all done that and it normally doesn't result in like a years long, life ruining.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And I have to add too, because so many of the photographs of him that are out there in the post bad vegan docu series world are of when he was like this huge, massive, massive dude. And he was not that. When I met him. When I met him, he was a lot thinner. And that part's hard to talk about too, because he looked way better in his photos than he did when he showed up. But he was so cute. He just looked like, you know, I don't know, one of those, like defensive football players that has that extra layer of.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, just like a safe.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Teddy bear.

[Lola Blanc]

Masculine.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Someone who's gonna hold. Keep. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Keep you safe.

[Lola Blanc]

Gonna wrap his arms around you.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. But then after that, like, I was really interested in how you have a couple of encounters with him and you're like, not that into him.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And it sounded like you were like kind of ready to move on, but then he worms his way back into your life.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

How did he do that?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I mean, a lot of times I'm like, I don't. Can we ask him? A lot of these things are things that I don't fully understand. I mean, I try to explore it as honestly as I can. In the book. It seems like early on he repeatedly had excuses to come back into my life. Then at one point it changes because he borrowed money from me, and then from that point on, I'm always going to want it back. So that created a financial tether. And there was also one time where he, in person gave me this story about how he could solve all my financial issues because I had been in personal debt because of that prior relationship with Matthew. And then I had bought the restaurant from the original financial investor, and so there was debt in the restaurant. And even though things were going great, I felt sort of trapped. And he came and told me this sort of fantastical story in person that he would be able to basically wipe out all my debt and, you know, make my dreams come true. And very, very naively, I believed him. And I think that part of the reason I. I mean, I. It's not that I 100% believed him, but I think back then I. I just couldn't have imagined that somebody would tell such a lie. Yeah, right. Like why? It's sort of like telling somebody, oh, I've got, you know, I've got the miracle cure for the disease for your child, or something like that. Like, why would somebody lie about something like that? That would be horrendously cruel. Now I get it because it happens. I mean, I've had people kind of try to pull a variation of that on me even now. I mean, usually they're randos on online and I. And they'll say stuff like that to me, and I'm like, yeah, right off. But at the time I just thought, oh, my God, like, okay, well. And that certainly, you know, opened the door wide in terms of letting him back in.

[Lola Blanc]

My mom and I have talked about that a lot as well, because she herself, like, both of us are very uncomfortable with dishonesty, and she, like, can't envision that somebody at the time when this had all happened to her, obviously now she knows, but she, like, couldn't imagine that someone would say such a crazy thing as that they are a prophet if they didn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How could you sleep at night? How could you ever go to sleep at night telling people lies like that?

[Lola Blanc]

Like, we project our own character onto other people.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes, yes, yes. And also I think that there's something. So not that long ago I ended up getting evaluated and getting a autism1 diagnosis, which is just interesting, but part of that, and I think it's way more common than people realize. So it's not like I'm, like, special, but there's something that correlates with that diagnosis which is taking people at face value because we are very Much. We are extremely straightforward. It wouldn't occur to me I'm a really bad liar. I don't like to lie. It makes me uncomfortable. But there's some kind of a. Especially women who have this diagnosis. It's like, almost guaranteed that you're going to be abused and manipulated. Because there's something in that kind of a wiring that. It's like the default setting is to assume that other people are kind of what you see is what you get. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

Have you seen the movie Speak? No Evil? Either of them. There's a remake in English.

[Sarma Melangailis]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Just gonna shout it out. Because there's. There's a scene in your book where he convinces you to let him and his dad give you a ride to your mom's house. He describes it as a ride, but then once you get there, you discover he means stay the weekend. And there's just like, these steps where he just sort of, like, keeps slowly encroaching on your boundaries.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Those movies. I just want to shout. Like, they're basically horror movies about people doing that. Exactly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Stepping over your boundaries.

[Sarma Melangailis]

That is the worst part.

[Lola Blanc]

Slowly. Yes.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And it's very dangerous when you're. You know, when you're conditioned as.

[Megan Elizabeth]

When you're polite.

[Sarma Melangailis]

When you're polite and you're conditioned to not be rude, to not want to make somebody else feel bad. And also, I think there's a level of. I mean, the way I was raised, and I write enough about my background in the book to kind of express this, but I was not one of those people. Sometimes people look at me and they think, like, I don't know why. It's like, oh, I have blonde hair. I must have been raised like a princess or something. Like, no, I was. It was the opposite. Right. So I walked around feeling completely unentitled and lacking boundaries and confidence. Right. So when somebody goes way out of their way to do a favor for you, which I was reluctant to accept it, but again, he sort of convinced me that, oh, no, it's no big deal, blah, blah, blah. But then it was a big deal, and he and his dad come, and then because they do this whole favor for me, I'm then put in a weird position because I don't want to say, like, what? No, you can't stay in front of someone's dad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I could never.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. I know.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Oh, my God. Never.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, his dad.

[Lola Blanc]

His dad seemed to be affirming who he was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And with dad jokes, my weakness. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, Right.

[Sarma Melangailis]

He was funny, too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'M fucked in this situation. Completely dead and gone. I'm interested to know like at this point had this kind of fantastical side quest version of him come online.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I think it came out later. The ride with dad was more was early on because he hadn't, at that point he hadn't met my mom yet. That was the first time he'd ever went to my mom's house. And I think I realize now too, in retrospect, that's when he sized up my mom as being a potentially really good target.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to hear a little bit more about this authority that he sort of implies that he has and how you receive that. Like I wrote down a couple things he would say. Things like it's people like me that make it possible for people like you to sleep safely at night. He forwards you a link to an article about black Ops special forces. When he leaves town, he tells you he's going to be off comms for a few days.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

So like what, what did you think? I mean, I know it was a mystery and like you didn't really know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, you were right. But when I asked specific questions, he deflected. Caught onto the inconsistencies. He just would deflect and turn away.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, like I could never get a straight answer out of him. And again, people like him are able to, you know, this is typical of a sociopath is that they could stand on the world stage, you know, and tell fantastical lies and not lynch and not exhibit any of the signs that most normal people would. We, you know, would miserably fail a lie detector test. But whatever is going on in their, those things aren't going on in their body. They're not exhibiting any signs of being nervous. You know, they're so confident in everything that they do that you just kind of assume that they're telling the truth. And you know, there he did, he forwarded me this article about something related to black Ops and he had been talking about something similar like the week before. And he doesn't say anything, but it sort of forwards it to me as if I'm supposed to connect the dots and figure out that he is one of them. And that's why he knew some of the things that he told me that then came out in the article which again, I don't know how he knew that shit or whatever, but he just had so much confidence about it all that it was like, okay. And again, you know, like you can't really disprove any of that stuff. So yeah, I think a Lot of it was his very dominating energy of confidence. When that kind of a thing comes at me. And I have gone through my entire life with the opposite of sort of always feeling uncertain and without boundaries. And I'm unworthy. And, you know, when I'm kind of the opposite, I'm probably extra susceptible to that kind of dominating confidence.

[Knix Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And. And you're heartbroken at this time. You're, like, going through heartbreak. So I don't know.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, I was heartbroken. And I continue to be heartbroken because I really still. Even in the early days when I was around Mr. Fox, it's not like. Here's another strange thing about my story is it's not like I was. Wasn't in love with him the way that normally people in these situations will fall in love with the perpetrator. I could never really understand it. And until it was Mark Vicente from the Nexium cult and the Vow, who. I heard him explain this in another context. And then, of course, he and I have talked about it in person since. But he was talking about why all these people were enamored with Keith Raynery. Because, of course, it becomes this sort of joke. Like, these guys are such buffoons. Like, why are women all about these guys who look like either, you know, in Keith's case, kind of a. A nerdy buffoon. And in Mr. Fox's case, I don't know, a big, big old giant slob. But what Mark said is that what these people do is they, you know, they take your best qualities and mirror them back to you, and they create sort of a. An idealized version of who you want to be that encompasses all your hopes and dreams and make it as if they're the way to reach that and that through them, you can get there. And so what ends up happening is you form, like, a sort of attachment to them, and it's more like you're enamored and they become your guru. And then. Then it can feel like love. So, you know, it's confusing for me because reading all of my messages that I was able to recover. There's plenty of times where I would say to him that I love you. But it wasn't like I was in love with him. It was. It was a sort of attachment that over time became more of a sickening attachment.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was like an extension of your dreams.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, also, when that person is both the creator of all your problems and the one dangling all the solutions, that is the trauma bond. That feels like love.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It sure does. Gosh.

[Lola Blanc]

I sent My friend, this thing you wrote. Because, again, I just see such parallels with so many relationships that people in my life and I have encountered, although, albeit not to this extent. But you basically found out that he had been convicted of a crime, or at least arrested for a crime under a different name than the one that he had given you.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, that's when I found out his name was something else. And of course, he acted like, oh, yeah, of course the name I told you wasn't my real name.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, you wrote. So naturally, I blocked all communication with him, relieved that I dodged a bullet, phew. And moved on with my life, building my amazing brand in business. Just kidding. I did not do that. Instead, Dad, I let him explain.

[Sarma Melangailis]

The.

[Lola Blanc]

Letting him explain hit so hard. Because, like, that is the thing, like, with people like this, the minute you let them explain, they're just so good at it.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Well, that.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, that was only because I was trying to protect you. Well, I only said that because I'm just trying to not reveal too much. And ultimately, it's going to be good for you in the end. Like, there's just always an explanation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you make great points about him having a very hypnotic voice, about him having a lot of repetitive information, and these things kind of lulling you back.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, I. I mean, I. Of course, I've gone down many rabbit holes of trying to understand this sort of dynamic and how. And I've heard people say, like, there's this FBI negotiator guy, Voss, blanking on his name, but, like, I know his Instagram handle, but I can't remember his actual name. Probably very normal, but he. He talks about how, you know, when you put on this voice that kind of sounds like a, you know, a radio broadcaster, that's very soothing, that it's very, very powerful and hypnotic. And then there was a really chilling quote in an Atlantic article with an interview with Steve Bannon where he talks about the power of radio and him broadcasting his message over just audio to people. And he says something about, like, the power of my. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something about how powerful his voice in people's ears could be. And it just. It was very creepy, but it made me think about my own situation because there were so many occasions where in our Gchats, which is what I was able to recover. And so I have a lot of our actual dialogue in the form of Gchats. And those parts, some of them are kind of funny because I'm pushing back at him. I'm making. He's trying to get me to send him more money, and I'm refusing. And then he would either call me or he would come back. And then according to my records, you know, it's like, oh, and then I sent him another wire for $30,000.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Cause he talked to you and. And, yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to note, too, that that voice can come in so many different forms. Like in the two by twos, the cult I was raised in, it's very like this. And we just want you to know, I hate it every time everything that happens. And you're just like.

[Lola Blanc]

Whereas some. Some commentators, they'll talk like this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, I always wonder when I watch World War II documentaries, I'm like, did all of this escalate so much because you have, like, Winston Churchill, like Hitler, like, bad guys, good guys, whatever guys. Like, you're just hearing their voices and it's like, freaky.

[Lola Blanc]

And I don't know, you realize we are podcast hosts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We may just have videos someday. But yeah, I don't know that that voice thing is. Is interesting.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I think, yeah, just someone bombarding you. Also, like, actually, will you tell us a little bit about that? Like, did he consume your time with communication with him?

[Sarma Melangailis]

Oh, my, yes. Over time, it just got worse and worse where he would. He consumed my time with all kinds of nonsense. I mean, in the end, I was like, you know, I'm trying to run the business and under so much stress and giving him all this money. And then he'd be yelling at me to, like, go pick up his Chipotle order and stop everything I'm doing and do this other nonsense thing. And looking back, I think a lot of that was just to keep me constantly destabilized and exhausted and confused and unable to think straight.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally off kilter. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What was the first time he asked you for money? Can you tell us about that?

[Sarma Melangailis]

He. He acted like it was this giant emergency. And it was early on enough that I, at that point, had no reason to be angry at him, really. It's just my nature to be helpful, I guess. And I don't know. I mean, you know, again, I wish I could remember exactly what he said and what the circumstances were, but he called me on the phone and acted like it was this sort of temporary, crazy emergency and there were dire consequences if he didn't get the money. And so, you know, it's a little bit like that bind that the sort of street con artists will put you in, where they say, I, you know, I need this I need 20 bucks because of some XYZ tragic story, and you're sitting there having to do the calculation of. Well, my gut's telling me that they're lying, but if they're not, I'm such an asshole to not get. Because if what they're saying is true, oh, my God. Like, they need the money to get back to their wife was about to give birth, or like, some crazy story. And you think, right. And then you make that calculation of. And I think that's a typical sort of street con artist thing where, you know, you're approached by somebody. It happened to me once at a rest stop. Somebody wanted money. This was a long, long time ago. It was a lot easier for those things to happen when it would make sense that somebody might not have a credit card or Venmo. But yeah. And so it was one of those things where if I didn't give it to him and he was telling me the truth, I'd be kind of an asshole because I could get it to him. So I did. And then, you know, whatever it was multiplied and multiplied.

[Lola Blanc]

I always err on the side of giving it to them because I'm like, that is where I land as well. I'm like, well, if they are telling the truth or if they're in such.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A desperate place and I have to go back in my mind, like, one time I found myself lost in Mexico, of all places. No money, no shoes, like, fucked. Don't even ask.

[Knix Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I had to, like, ask somebody for money to get back to the hotel I was staying. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Hilarious.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they gave it to me, thank God. And. And I think. And he didn't speak English. He probably didn't have a ton of money. I think about him every week of my life. Like, thank God for this man who was like, here's some bus money.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And like, yes. Sometimes people actually need money.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. After my mom and I got out of our cult situation, we had no money, and people were weird about helping her when it was literally like a single mother.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So, like, in response to that, it makes sense to me.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

That you err on the side of generosity. But then what happened? Then how did he use that?

[Sarma Melangailis]

So then over time, like, he never, you know, he didn't pay me back. It was one excuse after another. And then he would use that as a way to get. To allow me to let him come back. And the thing is, he didn't live in New York. He lived in Massachusetts. And so letting him come Back wasn't like, usually just letting him stop by. It would usually involve him staying for the weekend or at least overnight or something. I don't know. And the funny thing is, he was always staying on my couch because I couldn't stand to sleep next to him because he snored. And anyway. And then he would do some sort of sorcery on me so that by the end of the weekend, I'd somehow loaned him more money. You know, it's like it was a tether.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, reading the chats, I think, for both of us was a maddening experience. Just like the way that he kept moving the.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes, the classic moving the goalpost. You know, I achieved the thing that he says is gonna be the very last thing. And once I do that, it'll all be over. And then it keeps moving. And it keeps moving. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

One of the frustrating things for me was that, like, sometimes he would make me laugh and I would feel like, oh, they're like, almost like, I don't know, like brother or sister or something. Like, I can see that you guys were close. Like, I. I would feel comfort in him while I'm being scammed with you.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And that's the sickening thing, is that the person who's putting you through hell is also kind of the only person who can comfort you because they're the only person that knows about it. Because, again, you're put in a situation where you can't talk to anybody because it's so crazy. So he's the only one that knows about the hell that he's putting you through, and therefore he's the only one who can comfort me. And that was a weird thing to experience. Fast forward to when I'm arrested. And, you know, on the other side of this, there was a weird element of that because nobody knew what had really happened. And so I was all alone. And it is that sickening trauma bond dynamic that I'm sure is deliberate on their part, where they're torturing you and then also being like, it's going to be okay. They're doing good. You know, he would try to prop me up like that and talk to me a bit like a child, or a lot like a child. And then also, you know, as we talked about early, about just him on Twitter, he could be very funny. And that is maddening because in the middle of these traumatic experiences, he would be goofy and funny and make me laugh. And so that also creates this element of cognitive dissonance because somebody couldn't be casually making jokes and making you laugh while they're also destroying your life. So that's another, like, layer of destabilization.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Humor. Humor is, like, the most dangerous tactic, I think. And that's why we have the president. We have. Because sometimes he can say something kind of funny. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

It's hilarious.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can you take a moment to take us back to when you first got a picture of his full face? First, his Twitter picture was just the bottom of his face, and then you got a picture of his full face, and in his eyes, there was something that jolted, like, an immediate gut instinct of fear.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What did that feel like? What were you sensing? And how did you override it?

[Sarma Melangailis]

So what happened was the pictures he put of himself on first on Twitter and then he was sending me were, like, the lower half of the space, and then it was just him with sunglasses. And so for a while, all I saw was pictures of him with sun. And so he sort of, like, this slow reveal, which is creating all this anticipation. And I put a lot of these pictures online. I made a website for the book, and I put these photos online so that you can see what he was showing me. And then finally, he sent me a picture that showed his eyes. And it was a selfie taken. He was laying down, but his eyes were so intense and dark. I was scared. The moment I opened, it must have been a text. Moment I looked at the text, I immediately felt a jolt of fear. And that's something that now I pay attention to everything. Now I'm always paying attention to how something makes me feel, but at the time, I just, you know, I overrode it. But.

[Lola Blanc]

And it's not that much information. It's an image.

[Sarma Melangailis]

And it's also something that at the time, I wouldn't have been able to explain, whereas now I could. Like, if somebody was telling me that this happened to them, and they said, oh, I looked at this picture of, like, if somebody said that, I would say run. If you felt that jolt of fear, like, your body knows and run away from that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melangailis]

But at the time, I wouldn't have been able to even give myself that kind of advice. So I just thought. I mean, I didn't really think about it. It was probably the problem. I noticed that I felt that jolt of fear, and then, you know, I don't know, maybe he sent me another picture, and I just sort of moved on from it, but I didn't act on it in any way.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, and to be fair, there are probably photos of me that someone would jolt in fear. From.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, sure. I mean, the last thing we always say on this podcast is remember to trust your gut. And it's just interesting to me that this immediate gut instinct came in when you saw those eyes. But I also understand that, like, yes, you could see a picture of a very nice person and your gut could say, there, you look weird. And then you're like, no, they were great.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah, I think behavior is probably the bigger indicator. But still, the lesson is accurate.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sometimes your body just knows some shit.

[Lola Blanc]

If you notice something, pay attention to it is the thing.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah. I mean, I can't think of any time I've ever felt fear or wary of somebody and then they turned out to be fine. You know what I mean?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I'm naturally very narrow eyed, so I have. But.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

But that's because I grew up with the upbringing that I grew up with, so I'm very skeptical of people.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And probably too, you know, like, I probably go too far in the other direction. So what? You know, balance. What's that? There was a man named Danny who noticed these interactions between you two and tried to warn you.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

He literally, like, knew talked this man.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yes, yes.

[Lola Blanc]

He said, hope you realize the isolation and his attempt to brainwash you are part of the continuing scam. And you wrote that you actually got angry with him for saying that. Can you tell us about that?

[Sarma Melangailis]

When I went back and found those communications between me and Danny, it was. I don't know how to describe how that felt. It just felt crazy because I didn't remember it, but I remembered that Danny had gotten angry. And I vaguely remembered that Danny had sort of pointed out that he was probably a con artist. But when I went back and I looked up those conversations and I found those G chats between Danny and I and he says exactly what was going on. And I. Yeah, and I overrode that. What's weird is that even then I knew that some of the stuff he was saying was lies. And that was one of those times where I'd pulled away from Mr. Fox. I had pulled away from Mr. Fox. Yeah. And so I was kind of agreeing with him. All right. Yeah, the guy's kind of a liar or whatever, but then he was able to get back into my life even after that. But it was sort of heartbreaking to see it written out like that, you know, in black and white. And it's part of the reason why people have a tendency to erroneously. But logically, you know, they think that if they just confront somebody who's in a cult or in a toxic relationship, but just by pointing it out and going, oh my God, this person's a total psycho. You got to get away from them. You think it's going to work, but very often it won't work. I mean, even the woman who, according to when this show aired, there was a follow up show about somebody went after Mr. Fox and found him, or his name was Anthony Strange, who changed his name, and they confront a woman that he's in a relationship with and she seems to just totally ignore it. So, yeah, it happens. I mean, Danny's words obviously didn't have an impact, unfortunately. I wish they had.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, it just, it just reinforces something we talk about constantly, which is that like directly attacking the beliefs often backfires and has that opposite result that you wanted to have.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you think that there's a way he could have talked about it with you that would have been more likely to penetrate?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I get asked this question a lot and I struggle with it because I also end up a lot of times, you know, sort of counseling or talking other people through this very situation. So, you know, siblings or parents who are dealing with a child or a sibling or a friend or who's in a situation and they're trying to get them out and it's very, very hard. I think it was weird because Danny, it's not like Danny was a close friend or sibling. If it were, that would have made a big difference because if he had, then he would have been somebody that was in my life more and could have continued to push and push and push and just not give up. So sometimes I do tell people, you know, the most important thing is to maintain that relationship. So don't push so hard that it's going to do what actually happened with Danny. Again, he wasn't a really good friend, but even if he had, potentially it could have backfired in a way that that means like you push that person out of your life because you're like, oh, well, they're an asshole. So I'm now not going to listen to them at all. And you cut them off. So kind of the most important thing is to maintain that contact, as frustrating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

As it might be.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Oh, yes, I know. God.

[Lola Blanc]

For our last like 10ish minutes of part one here, can you talk about how you ended up married to this man you didn't even really like?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I know. I mean, this is one of the things that I, I had a lot of issues with bad vegan, which I've talked about, like ad nauseam and One of the more minor ones was that they, in the docu series about my story, they make it seem like I married him under completely different circumstances than I really did. And I did not want to marry him. He basically like browbeat me and convinced me. And as in these situations, very often these people just like, they're just relentless. And then finally you're like, oh, fine, I'll do the thing you want me to do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because sociopaths have unlimited energy. P.S. they're never tired.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God. They just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Batter, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter.

[Lola Blanc]

Where are you now?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Serial killers have nine families and they just, they stay up all night killing people, have a full time job and like, they just badger you. So.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah, no, that, I mean, that's, that's actually a good point. And as one of the more obscure red flags is that if somebody bombards you with like really long text messages or they like write these really long rants. And I say that hesitantly because I don't, you know, I have a tendency to be a bit long winded. But anything like that where, you know, you wonder how can they possibly put so much time and energy into this? Is it red flaggy?

[Lola Blanc]

But that's bombarding. That's consuming your time as well. I mean, it's, that's like more of that same thing.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I mean, there's so much more that I know now, now that I also understand my own wiring better. I think I'm extremely prone to getting mentally exhausted in that kind of a way because I'm one of those people that gets mentally exhausted by social interactions. So just being around other people and having to interact with other people is exhausting. And then layer on all of you bullshit just in my face constantly. It's like I was more and more weakened such that my defenses were down. It was harder to not do what he wanted me to do. And it seems preposterous that I would be like, okay, fine, let's get married. But at the time it just, it was what he convinced me to do and he acted like it would make, you know, at the time, you know, he had this story that he somehow had all his money that he was about to get and then he'd be able to transfer it to me and. But it went beyond that. By this time, he also had me really scared. I think your mom said something about this in her story where you get to the point where you think that you're always being watched by a bunch of people and so all your behavior and everything is being watched and you're being judged. And he made it seem like I was in danger. And so I'm just hyper on edge. And he said that if I married him, I would be protected and this would all just be so much easier and we'll just get it all done faster, basically. And I was. I just was like, all right, fine, you know, and we went to city hall and got the marriage license. And I remember being there and having this feeling of, like, just feeling sick about it because I remember thinking I'd be so embarrassed if I, like, ran into somebody I knew and what would I say? And also just noticing all the other couples there that are, like, in love and holding hands and they're so excited getting their marriage license. And I'm sitting there like, ugh. After you get a marriage license, you have to wait 24 hours. So 24 hours later, we went to, you know, like a. Whatever. I had just found a person who would do it, and we got married.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I noticed that even in the marriage process, like, the person marrying you pretended to be the witness and signed the paper. Like, these people are just always pushing the boundaries. There's all these little things that, like, don't even seem like that I get a deal at the time. But they're able to manipulate people into not following the rules.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it's just little things that add up over time.

[Sarma Melangailis]

I think he was manipulating a bunch of other people at the same time as me. You know, some I'm almost positive about, but. But yeah, he was really, really good at what he did. And I think he was manipulating some, not just women, but men too.

[Lola Blanc]

I think that's an important point too, because that's something that kind of gets lost in my mom's story as well. People will assume that she was just this gullible person who was the sole victim. And then if you actually look at the history of our cult leader, he has done this. Yeah, I forgot we called him Chad. I love that he's done this to so many people, including men. And he has swindled so many people out of their money and in so many different ways. And that's the thing. Like, it is never just one person, even when that's the only, like, public facing story.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Right. You know, and they do it to other intelligent, accomplished people. So, I mean, there's some that I know for sure about. Like the guy Nazim in my story, who he conned him out of not nearly as much, but conned him out of money. But there are other people involved in the story too. Like a real estate broker who, if I had to make a bet, I would say definitely, he got a bunch of money out of that guy. I just know it because that guy doesn't want to talk to. He was a really nice guy, but doesn't want to talk to me. The people when the show that ended up being called Bad Vegan was being made, they reached out to him, they wanted to talk to him, and he was like, no, fuck off, Go away. And I think that reputationally it would be bad for him if he fell for a con because he's a real estate broker to very high net worth people. But that just the way he responded made me think that for sure he got gone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean, you guys were on the top level of the secret floor at Tiffany's while he's getting champagne everywhere, like he was just scamming everybody. He's comfortable everywhere.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Scammers got a scam. So here you are.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. To wrap up part one here, what was the total, approximately money that this man scammed you out of? In the end?

[Sarma Melangailis]

I wouldn't know the exact total because especially early on, a lot of it was in the form of cash. But in the end, I think he got over $2 million. It's not like it was my money. You know, I didn't have money in the bank. I wasn't. I wasn't living large. I didn't have a savings account, I didn't have assets, I didn't have investments. So, yeah, it was pretty bad.

[Lola Blanc]

And next week we will talk more about that process. And that concludes part one. Come back next week for part two with Sarma. There's so much more to get into.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We barely jumped off the ledge.

[Lola Blanc]

We could have done triple the amount of interviewing that we did do. So, Megan, do you think that you would join Mr. Fox?

[Megan Elizabeth]

So to be clear, if this is your first episode, at the end of episodes, we ask if I would join the cult because I'm slightly susceptible. So would I join Mr. Fox's cult? Probably. Hard.

[Lola Blanc]

Tell me more.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All of the coincidences, him being friends with a celebrity that I was, like, crushing on, him being funny, my biggest weakness. And then this twisted, warped sense of destiny, you know, proving myself, tests, blah. It's a trope that is just. Megan tumbles down the rabbit hole, and there she goes. So I thankfully am not as good at procuring money from people, thank God, because otherwise, I mean, I'd owe millions of dollars.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, it would all be gone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it'd all be gone.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Reading this story, I was like, I could definitely end up in this situation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally. I mean, you have to. You have to be pretty self aware and know that most of us could.

[Lola Blanc]

Most of us could. But I think like the type of manipulator that he was, where he's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for someone who's like, funny on the Internet. Yep. Who seems, like, really confident and like, is gonna help, you know, because I'm a. I'm a career bitch, you know, like, that's, that's my thing. That's my weakness. Like, if you. I mean, I have many. But if it was like, what's the one thing that motivates you? It's like, oh, well, getting my, you know, these like, artistic projects that I dreamed about, like, getting them off the ground. So if someone was like, hey, I'm gonna, like, make all your dreams come true and you just have to Let me borrow $2,000 first.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Yeah. But to be honest with you, having read the book, I'm so much less likely to ever fall into such a thing. These stories, these stories matter.

[Lola Blanc]

They inoculate us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

At least to some extent.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Truly. So anyway, please read the book. Please join us next week for part two. Rate us 5 stars if you're so inclined. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram, USMePodcast or on TikTok. USMeCoultPodcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own source story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[IBM Ad Voice]

What kind of man would let this.

[Sarma Melangailis]

Happen to his family?

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Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working.

[Lola Blanc]

On a story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.

[Murdoch Death in the Family Promo Voice]

Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

[Sarma Melangailis]

It's only cheating if you get caught.

[Murdoch Death in the Family Promo Voice]

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family. New episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Ford was built on the belief that the world doesn't get to decide what you're capable capable of, you do. So ask yourself. Can you or can't you? Can you load up a Ford F150 and build your dream with sweat and steel? Can you chase thrills and conquer curves in a Mustang? Can you take a Bronco to where the map ends and adventure begins? Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. Ready, Set Forward.

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