Sarma Melngailis - Part 2: Isolation, Deeper into the Scam, & Getting Arrested

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Sarma Melngailis - Part 2: Isolation, Deeper into the Scam, & Getting Arrested

Release Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth
Guest: Sarma Melngailis, author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo

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Episode Overview

In the second part of their interview with Sarma Melngailis—best known as the subject of the Netflix docuseries Bad Vegan—Lola and Meagan delve even deeper into the labyrinth of psychological manipulation and coercion that Sarma experienced at the hands of her abuser, referred to as "Mr. Fox." The episode explores how his tactics escalated, leading to financial devastation, emotional isolation, and ultimately, Sarma’s arrest and incarceration. Alongside Sarma's firsthand account, the conversation branches into the broader psychology of cult dynamics, scam tactics, and the aftermath for survivors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Anatomy of the Scam

• Shape-Shifting Manipulation:
  Mr. Fox’s stories and justifications constantly evolved, making it impossible for Sarma to anchor herself in reality.
  • "As is common with these people, the story keeps changing over time...by that point, it was so far gone...he justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests." — Sarma [16:48]
• Tests of Loyalty:
  "Getting the money was part of that… making me believe none of it mattered, because as soon as we were done with this thing...I'd be able to pay them back double, triple...I was far into the delusion." — Sarma [16:49]
• Introduction of Spiritual and Mystical Components:
  Mr. Fox leveraged spiritual frameworks, especially references reminiscent of Kabbalah, to rationalize the financial abuse and control Sarma, e.g., "my soul came here and my primary issue to work out...was financial," integrating ideas of energy, ‘light’, and cosmic tests. [18:08-20:34]

Isolation, Control, and Psychological Effects

• Sense of Unreality:
  Sarma describes existing "with one foot in his reality and one foot...not really knowing what was reality," giving Mr. Fox latitude to convince her of his omnipotence. [18:14]
• Confusion and Information Overload:
  She was bombarded with details, demands, and changes in narrative, a tactic paralleling tactics used in politics and cults to exhaust critical thinking.
  • "Creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation, because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible." — Sarma [32:16]
• Fear of Doing Wrong:
  Constantly being on edge, worried about “failing a test,” or displeasing Mr. Fox.
  • "I still get panicked any time I think I've done something wrong…I was constantly afraid I was doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble, and he would be angry at me, and I would suffer the consequences." — Sarma [25:21]

The "Tests," Gaslighting, and Future-Faking

• Moving Goalposts & False Hope:
  Mr. Fox repeatedly promised the ordeal was "almost over" and to “prepare for your life to change forever," always keeping the promised resolution just out of reach. [40:14-41:56]
• Future-Faking:
  He would have Sarma list out what she would do once she got the money—anchoring her in a fantasy future he never intended to deliver.
• Thought-Terminating Clichés:
  With phrases like "HEA—Happily Ever After" he would shut down Sarma's doubts or arguments, a technique used in high-control groups.
  • "I could be making some kind of argument, and he'll just say like, ‘HEA’ and so that's going to get me to like jolt into that space..." — Sarma [42:32]

Fabricated Personas and Surveillance

• Fake Emails and Personas:
  Mr. Fox created fake email identities, such as his "assistant Will," and carried on two-sided email threads, confusing Sarma and extracting more compliance. [24:01]
• "Omnipotent Brother" & ‘The Box’:
  He convinced Sarma she was always being watched by otherworldly authority figures unless they were “in the box”—a contrived ritual space where truth could be told if Mr. Fox conducted rituals (often involving blood). [29:02-30:28]

Demonstrations of Power and Coercive Control

• Illusions of Psychic Ability:
  Mr. Fox would seemingly know things about Sarma’s life before she told him, convincing her of his supernatural capabilities. In hindsight, Sarma suspects he accessed her emails. [30:30-31:34]
• Weaponizing Spirituality and the ‘Secret’:
  Concepts from The Secret and parallel realities were used to make Sarma believe that every choice (and compliance with his demands) could instantly reshape her destiny. He further manipulated her by promising agelessness, success, and even the immortality of her dog. [42:50-45:09]

Pressures, Breaking Points, and The Crash

• Isolation and Travel:
  Mr. Fox used constant relocation as a method of control, untethering Sarma from friends, routine, and any anchor to reality.
  • "He took you away from your apartment and your home and your safe space. And he just starts moving you around the freaking world like Carmen Sandiego." — Megan [47:31]
• Restaurant Closure and Devastation:
  The closure of her restaurant, her life’s purpose, was more chillingly devastating than even the sexual abuse.
  • "That was absolutely devastating. At that point, my options were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like this. How in the world am I going to get this done? Or like, the only other option was that I would have to like kill myself because what else would I do..." — Sarma [45:56]

Arrest and Aftermath

• The Arrest:
  After briefly reopening her restaurant with investor funds (which she clarifies mostly went to pay debts, not to herself or Mr. Fox), Mr. Fox took her on a cross-country road trip, ending with their arrest in Tennessee, which she suspects he engineered. [49:34-51:57]
• Jail and the Gradual Unraveling:
  There was no single awakening moment for Sarma—in jail, layers of denial peeled off slowly, and she gradually accepted reality.
  • "There was never like a wake up moment...it's just this gradual, layers of realizing that, oh my God, nightmare...is now coming true." — Sarma [52:40]
  • She was extradited to Rikers, where she realized the depth of the manipulation.
  • Mr. Fox deleted incriminating emails before their arrest, but left one email attempting to pin blame on her. He ultimately served less jail time than Sarma.

Recovery, Media, and Rebuilding

• Media Misrepresentation:
  Sarma discusses the additional trauma caused by the Bad Vegan docuseries, which, through editing, depicted her as a possible co-conspirator despite evidence to the contrary.
  • "The Netflix show Bad Vegan, like, totally turned my story around...some people see it for what it was, some people didn't...they moved my words around to change what I said to him, right? And those people who did that made millions of dollars from..." — Sarma [59:28]
• Purpose of Her Book:
  Sarma self-published The Girl with the Duck Tattoo to assert control over her story and lay out in detail the tactics of her abuser, including verbatim exchanges. [63:49]
  • "It's so amazing and so frustrating to read his exact words...he is gaslighting, he is manipulating, he is doing everything, and it's all right there. And I do think that's really useful..." — Lola [63:18]
• Lessons for Listeners:
  Despite her intelligence and education, Sarma fell victim to a manipulative predator, reaffirming that anyone can be targeted by these tactics. "You are smart, period. You are, like, a good person, period. And this horrifying thing happened to you...this is going to be a staple of helping so many people get out. Truly." — Meagan [61:10]
• Advice and Reflections:
  Sarma hopes her memoir will make people more alert to red flags, especially young women.
  • "I'd hope that it would get read by young people who haven't been through something like this...if they encounter somebody like this they'll think, huh, this kind of reminds me of that story." — Sarma [61:59]
  • She describes a strange “awakening”—a forced self-awareness and healing that came not through cosmic fulfillment but through surviving the deepest betrayal and loss.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Test of Loyalty:
  "He justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests. I had to pass these tests." — Sarma [16:48]

• On Cognitive Dissonance as a Tool:
  "Creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation, because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible." — Sarma [33:13]

• On the Experience of Gaslighting and Manipulation:
  "It's like being on a treadmill where the speed keeps going up but you’re not allowed to stop running." — Paraphrased throughout episode

• On the Long-Lasting Effects:
  "Even years later, it's like you're walking around permanently in that heightened state of fight or flight." — Sarma [25:21]

• On the Devastation of Her Restaurant Closing:
  "That was way worse than any of the creepy sex stuff or anything else. That was the worst part was when that restaurant was closed." — Sarma [45:56]

• On the False Hope and Broken Promises:
  "Everything is pretty much done and ready to go. Money was moved today. I am waiting on confirmation...It’s almost over. Prepare for your life to change forever.” — Mr. Fox (as quoted by Lola) [40:14]

• On Media Misrepresentation:
  "They moved my words around...made millions of dollars from. And now it's like I'm trying to, you know, keep my shit together, and I have to pay my rent on credit cards and I'm in debt." — Sarma [59:28]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Explaining the Scam Structure: [16:48–18:08]
• Spiritualization and “Tests”: [18:08–21:02]
• Fake Personas (Will): [24:01–25:03]
• Discussion of Information Overload: [32:06–33:13]
• Omnipotent Brother & The “Box”: [29:02–30:28]
• Coercive Control and Jail: [52:40–55:12]
• Rebuilding & Reflections: [57:33–68:24]
• Media & Book Discussion: [59:28–63:49]
• Sarma’s Advice for Listeners: [61:58–62:59]

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Episode Takeaways

• Anyone can fall prey to manipulative tactics, regardless of intelligence or experience.
• Perpetrators use confusion, isolation, spiritual justification, goalpost-moving, and fabricated urgency to entrap their targets.
• Victims face not just the pain of the incident, but often the pain of disbelief and misrepresentation from the outside world.
• Healing is possible, and survivor stories are vital for educating and protecting future generations.

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Where to Find Sarma’s Book

• The Girl with the Duck Tattoo can be ordered (including signed copies and non-Amazon options), along with supporting material, at [thegirlwiththeducktattoo.com]
• Instagram: @sarmamelngailis

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FINAL QUOTE

"Somehow it really lands that, oh my God, these people exist and they're out there. And I think that's part of how these people get away with what they do is because most of us just can't even imagine that that kind of psychology exists." — Sarma [39:55]

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Transcript

[Lola Blanc]

This is exactly right.

[Ben Westoff]

Chicago. A white woman's murder, A black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit.

[Sarma Melngiles]

90 years of killing somebody I have never seen.

[Ben Westoff]

The Crying Wolf podcast is the story of a corrupt detective, two men bound by injustice and the quest for redemption, no matter the price. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Cobin, and says, let's write a book together.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I was asking him basically to let.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Me into his secret thriller writing world.

[Lola Blanc]

This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller Gone Before Goodbye.

[Sarma Melngiles]

You think you're gonna read for 10 minutes and next thing you know it's 4 in the morning.

[Lola Blanc]

Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already a New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Looking for some spooky vibes this season.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We are here to tell you about the return of the cozy, creepy horror podcast Rattled and Shook.

[Lola Blanc]

Rattled and Shook is brought to you by Tenderfoot tv, the creators of the hit horror podcast radio rental.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Rattled and Shook is a weekly horror variety show featuring true scary stories, guests and more.

[Lola Blanc]

The show is an ode to radio programs of the past with old timey music and a slightly retro feel.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In season three, host Meredith Stedman will read and react to haunting tales that are sent in by real people.

[Lola Blanc]

We advise you to keep the lights on for these immersive sound designed tales of terror.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A new season of Rattled and Shook is available now. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Westoff]

Trust Me do you trust me?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Ben Westoff]

Trust me, this is the truth, the only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two baddies in debt who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Today is part two of our interview with Sarma Melngiles, author of the Girl with the Duck Tattoo, whom you may have seen in the docuseries Bad Vegan. This week she is going to tell us about how her manipulator Mr. Fox consumed her time. Overwhelmed her with information and dangled promises of financial freedom that was always just around the corner as a way to get her to borrow and send him more and more and more money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Damn this man. She'll tell us about the fabricated online Persona he created, part of the manipulation. How he always knew things it seemed like he couldn't have known if he didn't have some kind of special power. And the tactics he used to keep her in a constant state of confusion and dependence, including an increasing barrage of tests. And then we'll finally discuss how they drove across the country until they were finally both arrested, plus how she felt.

[Lola Blanc]

About her time at Rikers and the current status of her restaurant.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, indeed.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm just. I'm so happy we got to have her on. I. Like, I've said it a million times in the interview, but I just connect with so much about her story because it's so similar to my mom's. And hearing and reading just, like, the details, the circus, the exchanges.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, God.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I mean, it's really, really insightful into the, like, psychology of how. Of the details of what happens.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Megan, that's me.

[Lola Blanc]

No, Magnificent Megan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't want to talk about it.

[Lola Blanc]

No one is going to. No one is going to understand this reference, but it's very funny. I prom. Magnificent Megan, what is your cultiest thing this week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

God. Okay, well, I mean, I. This happened a couple months ago. I've been hesitant to admit it because it feels shameful to me, but after reading Sarma's book and knowing that being open about these things helps, I'm just gonna say it out loud. I got fucking scammed, bro.

[Lola Blanc]

You got scammed?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I got target scammed.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Hard.

[Lola Blanc]

How I will.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I will tell you, because I'm a person who's, like, pretty aware of scams. I have the secret password for the family in case somebody calls and, like, pretends to be kidnapped or, like, I'm on top of my scammy shit. You know what I mean? The other day, a guy called me, and he was like, this is Chase. Did you just charge $9,000 to your card? And I was like, yeah, I did. And he was like, it was in Florida. And I was like, yep, it was in Florida. And, like, I know when people are scamming me. Okay? Any who. I feel like I'm pretty savvy about people trying to scam me. However, when fear is involved, things get crazy. And I got a message through my work email from my boss that said, megan, I need you to resend me your number. I've lost it. This is from his email immediately. And I'm like, oh, my God. It's blah, blah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And he texts me, and he's like, megan, I need you to go grab me some gift cards from Target, because I have. I made some people mad yesterday at the company, which I knew was true, and I want to give them some gifts. And I was like, that's so nice of you. I'm really busy on the. On this thing right now, like. And he's like, I don't care. I need you to go now. And I'm like, what? Okay. Randomly, my friend texts me, do you want to go to Target?

[Sarma Melngiles]

What the fuck?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. I'm like, sure, I'll meet you at Target. So my friend is there, and she's like, like, going down the aisle. And I'm like, I can't shop right now. I have to buy gift cards for Target. $600 worth of gift cards. This man has me buy two, three $200 things. Okay, I buy the gift cards. I'm like, weird, but whatever. He goes, megan, I'm so sorry. I need. I need three more.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. And I'm like, is this coming from his phone number that, you know, no new number.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm like, okay, $1,400 this person has me spending on gift cards. I go to a Target employee, like, the manager working behind the. What looks like the return desk, talking to a girl, and I'm like, please look at these texts. I'm so scared. Is this illegal? Am I getting scammed? Like, what's happening? And because I'm such a goody goody tattletale, like, freaked out. And he's like, no, I mean, it sounds like your boss was just a dick to some people and wants to be nice. And I was like, wait, that's what the Target? Yeah, Because I, like, gave him some backstory, you know what I mean? Like, I'm chatting his ear off. I'm yapping at him, and I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble. My friend's like, let's go look at the beauty. I'm like, bitch, I can't. I'm fucking.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I. I'm at work.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So then on the last 1400. $1, I mean, I only spent 14 on the last buy. My dad happened to call me.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, thank God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I explained to him what I was doing, and he goes, megan, stop. Somebody just did this to one of his employees. Really emailed us Him. Please grab me some gift cards. I need it for the staff. It made sense.

[Lola Blanc]

And they're like, I'll reimburse you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'll reimburse you immediate.

[Lola Blanc]

That's such a good scam.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's such a good scam.

[Lola Blanc]

But. And was he like. And then give me the numbers for the car.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Scratch it off, send it to me. I'm scratching.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you do it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, of course.

[Lola Blanc]

Damn. I wish your dad had called a little bit earlier.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why couldn't he have called a bit earlier? And.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And. And I. I felt so stupid, obviously. Well, thank you. But, like, because the fear of it, I. I was like, arguing with my friend about, you know, I was like, I have to hurry. Like, there was just such a sense of urgency within me of like, I don't have time to look at stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's something we should be on the lookout for if it feels like it's. It has to happen right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like love bombing. Any of it. Like, nothing's that urgent unless it's life saving medical.

[Lola Blanc]

If someone wants you to get gift cards urgently.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. CPR and the Heimlich maneuver, those are the urgent things.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not gift cards.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not gift cards. So. Yeah, I learned that the hard way.

[Lola Blanc]

When you looked back at the email, Was it actually from his email? Like, was he hacked? No, no, it was mask.

[Sarma Melngiles]

It was a hack.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I think it's awesome that you shared that story because that shit happens to so many people.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

I told you. I've talked about the times that I've almost gotten scammed by, like, someone calling me because they saw something on my Twitter and they said they were from Twitter and they were like. Right, right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

No, that's so good to know. Are we able to, like, get a refund or anything or.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, partially, but some of it, they're just not giving me back.

[Sarma Melngiles]

So.

[Lola Blanc]

Sucks.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know. It does suck. Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I hope he enjoys whatever he's buying from Target.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I know, me too. I was like, damn.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Enjoy the Target cards.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, on a similar note.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Give me your cultiest thing.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna do. I was gonna do a K Pop thing, but I think I'm gonna switch it, actually.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, okay.

[Lola Blanc]

We'll talk about K Pop another time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, great.

[Lola Blanc]

And by the way, I've written a couple of K Pop songs. I love K Pop.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we love K Pop. No one is mad at K Pop. We want the fans, the stans to know that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. The new SORA came out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Lola Blanc]

As our mutual friend posts videos. Do you see these videos? He posts all the time. Stein? No, he loves it. It makes me feel insane. There was someone who. And this is also relevant to. I'm just gonna shout out my friend's movie Apopheniacs because it deals with this topic in the form of a horror movie. You can now put yourself into Sora. This program, like put your face in one time and it can have you. It could create a realistic video of you doing a absolutely anything. It can put you into any TV show. And it's still like maybe a little rough looking sometimes, but it's very realistic for how early it is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I made a hundred of myself doing ballet.

[Lola Blanc]

Why ballet?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because lifelong dream. And I was just like, what would I look like doing ballet?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's so nice. But there was a man who like, he just very easily made it look like he had robbed a bank. It is so easy now to put somebody's face in any environment and to just make up a fucking video.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect timing. With our current administration and all the things that people are going to be able to say.

[Lola Blanc]

That was a. I. I mean, that's the thing. And also just like the scams that are going to happen, the manipulations that are going to happen. It's very, very scary.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, I'll tell you one thing. A lot of people have been sending me their sort of videos of themselves, you know, like eating with Elvis. And I'm like, real talk. I'm not going to watch your Instagram video of your actual life. I'm definitely not watching a 15 second fake video of you eating ice cream on the moon.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, it does feel like when people did all those, there have been all those, like, little. Here's what I'd look like as a cartoon character. Here's what I'd look like as an old person. Like, I don't care. But. But the fact that you could like forge someone doing anything and saying anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

And use that as a tool of manipulation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And sometimes people are already believing that it's a real thing that happened. And it says Sora on it. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Because people just don't know what that means. They don't know if it's a sore on it, guys. It's definitely fake. Also, look at the fingers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Are there five or are there more or less?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's scary. Yeah. Like, I know that this is a big debate among everybody right now and there are people who are like, well, farmers were afraid of technology and like, sure. But like, this is the most like aggressively egregiously unregulated scam potential and manipulation potential and like propaganda potential technology that we've ever seen. And so I'm. I can't wait to see what transpires. What videos you gonna do of me? I don't know. We'll see you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You might have to. You might have to start doing a few of yourself. Send it around. Cause they need to scan that face.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't wanna. Don't scan my face.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I got. I had to do that full face scan for those belly videos.

[Lola Blanc]

Girl, I will not be doing that. Will be able to make me. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If you had a childhood dream, I do suggest putting yourself doing the thing.

[Lola Blanc]

My childhood dream was to be a princess.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Then you can make that happen and it's kind of fun. But don't show anybody, don't send it to anyone because they don't give a shit.

[Lola Blanc]

Also, AI, I just saw this study that data centers in the uk Actually, this. I think I saw this through our guest from next week. But the amount of energy that the data centers in the UK are using totally negates the impact of switching to green.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So. So you can see yourself riding away.

[Lola Blanc]

It's not worth it.

[Sarma Melngiles]

It's literally not.

[Lola Blanc]

This is our one planet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is it?

[Lola Blanc]

Good point, Meghan.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because the point Magnificent Megan the whale riding video that I made change a little.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Why did I also get a man riding a dolphin?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Because that's what you want to see. And like, if we have to destroy our one perfect planet, then so be it.

[Lola Blanc]

No, let's not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's not.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know, I know.

[Lola Blanc]

I like our planet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I do too. It's gorgeous.

[Sarma Melngiles]

It's beautiful.

[Megan Elizabeth]

For now.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I love it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. All right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Well, let's talk to somebody who actually is doing something to save the planet and eating vegan.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, good segue. Okay, here we go.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Think back to the early 2000s. You're flipping through TV channels and then you hear this.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you learn something from this?

[Megan Elizabeth]

But looking back 20 years later, that iconic show so many of us love is horrifying.

[Ben Westoff]

Robin, first of all, is too old to be starting model.

[Lola Blanc]

She's huge.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I talked to cast, crew and producers who were there for some of the show's most shocking moments.

[Sarma Melngiles]

If you were so rooting for her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why don't you help her with never before heard interviews? The Curse of America's Next Top Model examines why this show was so popular and where it all went wrong.

[Sarma Melngiles]

We basically sold our souls and they got rich.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Listen to the curse of America's Next Top model on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Westoff]

Whenever I got through the window, I tried to pick him up, and his body was stiff. I'm Ben Westoff, and this is the Peacemaker, a true crime podcast investigating a string of mysterious deaths at a prestigious Missouri university and the fraternity brother at the center of it all. A few years back, two fraternity brothers died by suicide just weeks apart in shockingly similar ways. Both were discovered by the same student, Brandon Grossheim. I laid him down and proceeded. I tilted his head back and proceeded to get him mouth to mouth in cpr. At first, people gave Brandon the benefit of the doubt. But when three more acquaintances died the following year, the tide turned. The lawsuit says Gross Heim was one.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Of the last people to see each.

[Ben Westoff]

Victim before their death. Was he profoundly unlucky, or was something much darker at play? Listen to the Peacemaker podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline.

[Sarma Melngiles]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Lola Blanc]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Sarma Melngiles]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific. And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Lola Blanc]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back, Sarma. We left off last week talking to you about the amount of money that Mr. Fox had scammed you and your loved ones and associates out of. For someone who maybe hasn't seen Bad Vegan or hasn't read your book yet, can you kind of just like, explain, like, in simple terms what the scam was like, what he was saying, or like what he made you believe would happen if you gave the money?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Unfortunately, it's hard to do concisely because, as is common with these people, the story keeps changing over time. Yeah, so in the beginning, it was one thing, and then over time, it morphed into something else, and then it morphed into something else to the point where at the end, he sort of found a way to justify everything he was doing. By that point, it was so far gone, and I was so far gone that he justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests. I had to pass these tests. And getting the money was part of that. And he acted like it was no big deal, like he was just putting it somewhere. And it was all about these tests of loyalty and also making me believe that none of it mattered, because as soon as we were done with this thing, which that goalpost kept moving, all of these people would be, you know, I'd be able to pay them back double, triple. I. I could money whip them, as you said. So by that point, I was far into the delusion. You spun these stories that kept changing and changing, and then over time, you weave in that psychological aspect, too, where it gets harder and harder for me to get out of. Because I'm in so deep.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. At first it's, I'm going to pay you back and you're going to be rewarded with so much more money. And then it sort of evolves and there's like a spiritual component.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like now these tests aren't even on this realm anymore. They're kind of. Yeah. Like, can you kind of walk us through what?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, I mean, over time, he had me convinced and not convinced, but he had me sort of always with one foot in his reality and. And then one foot of not really knowing what was reality, but making it seem as if he had all these special powers. And what's eerie now, and I don't think I've talked about this on any other podcast, but I found it fascinating and I noticed it while I was working on my memoir. I'd already written the whole draft, but I made sure to work these things in because I'd started to hear things about Kabbalah basically from Instagram reels. And then I got really curious and I was looking into it because I was hearing things that were reminding me of stuff that he used to say to me. And so this idea that my soul came here and my primary issue to work out, which if you looked into Kabbalah, like, everybody has their tycoon is what it's called, and mine was financial. And so that. That's why he was testing me on this. And then a lot of other things, like he sort of conditioned me to not get mad at him, to not get reactive. But he explained that if I get reactive in a situation and I lose my temper, that that will lead to something bad happening, not just in a way that we could all imagine would logically happen potentially. For example, and I've heard this explained in Kabbalah, that you Know if you're reactive to something and lose your temper and lash out at somebody or whatever you do, that that might then be the cause of your walking outside and tripping and spraining your ankle, which is totally illogical. But in a spiritual world, it's made out like there's that consequence to your action. And so he presented it to me in that way. And there are all these other examples. Like later on, the really icky, gross, like, sexual abuse stuff, he would tell me that he needed my light, that it was like, energy, that he needed my light. And that's also something that I heard talked about, you know, listening to Kabbalah stuff online where, you know, your sexual energy is like a light and you're merging with that person. And I just all. It just. There's so many examples where what he was telling me now I see happen to mirror that stuff. And I don't know what to make of it. But he certainly woven this spiritual component that just added to this sort of confusing soup in which he kept me boiling.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Where you were human and he was not. Was this. Was I.

[Sarma Melngiles]

What are the. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he made it out like he came here and he was shepherding me through this process. And now I'm. This is very typical. I think in cult situations, too, is like, I'm chosen. I'm special. I'm the chosen one. So even though I'm just a. He used to call me as tbh, as tiny blonde human, therefore, by implication, is not human and is something more like some kind of a God that came here. And. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to just, like, sort of reiterate your point about the story changing, because I think that's something that people who have never experienced this kind of manipulation I don't think necessarily often understand.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

And what we kind of see over and over again is that, like, once you have formed that bond with the manipulator, that trauma bond, or once they have, like, convinced you that they are the authority, no matter how smart you are, they have systematically reduced your critical thinking abilities using tried and true tactics.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

So it's. You're not in a position mentally to be like, wait. But the story changed because your lifeline is the person who is the authority. And once you have given them that trust and they are that figure for you, then they can kind of change it however much they want. Because my dude also. The number of spiritual systems or political, like, he morphs it, like, every six months, what he is saying he's about or what the belief System is. It doesn't matter. It's not the point. The point is he's got these people who he has manipulated who will do whatever he says because they are trapped in this hole and they don't know how to get out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And a great example of that is, like, end time dates. People are like, well, if somebody gives an end time date and it doesn't come true, everyone's gonna leave. No, people walk in harder. Like the. The trauma bond, the cognitive dissonance. And there is that trauma bond statistic where it's like, if you're nice and then mean to a dog, it's like 253% more loyal to you. Like, it's just very, very innate in our DNA.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, we're all susceptible. This could happen to all of us. We all the time talk about how we think we're gonna be like. Because we know someone is potentially like a narcissist or, like, having antisocial tendencies or whatever, that we won't be vulnerable to their tactics. But then at the end of it, we're like, fuck, yeah, of course. Because it just works. It just works because it's that alternating the high and the crash and the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

High and the animals at the end of the day.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarma Melngiles]

And it's really unfortunate that it. I mean, I've been through it multiple times now, so I realize from my own experience how hard it is. You sort of think if it happens to you once, it's never going to happen again. But that's why I told the story in as much detail as I did about my situation with Matthew. Because even on the other side of that, I came out of that aware. You know, somebody who'd known him for a long time said, well, he's a textbook sociopath. And so I had done all this research on sociopathy and understood that people like that exist. And I think I didn't think about it that much again. I was busy with the restaurant. I was preoccupied. I was running the business on my own. And you sort of have this feeling like, well, it could never happen again. But it's the opposite. Whatever it was that made you vulnerable to that in the first place is still there. And it's more likely for it to happen again. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Another parallel between you and my mom making people up on email. Invented Personas. Emailing.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, he did that.

[Lola Blanc]

Your responses in the G chat were so interesting because you kind of know he's making this up, but.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it's a man named Will. It's a man named Will. Correct. Is this his assistant?

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And so you're emailing with him as his assistant, but you're like, you're the fucking same person.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know.

[Sarma Melngiles]

There's this time. I know there's those times where I'm like, you know, I'm like, fuck you. You should go blow each other. Like, I'm so angry at him that I'm saying all this crass stuff. And I also found that fascinating about my own situation is that I'm calling him out on it, but then also just kind of going along with it at the same time. But by that time, again, he could get away with anything. And there was nothing to call him out on because he had framed the whole thing as if he was deliberately putting me through this test so that, like, gave him an out for absolutely everything.

[Lola Blanc]

Bro, the test thing, I cannot. Yeah, y', all, if anyone says they're testing you, run.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I also hate when people are like, and he did this to you so often. And it made me physically ill because I hate the feeling when he'd be like, I heard. I heard you did something bad. You want to tell me about it?

[Sarma Melngiles]

And you're like, oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, I still have that. I still get panicked anytime I think I've done something wrong or I'm constantly feel like, oh, my God, I'm going to get in trouble, or I've done something wrong. It's a really difficult thing to live with. I mean, I constantly was afraid I was doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble, and he would be angry at me, and I would suffer the consequences. And you're like walking on eggshells, which is probably why, you know, my heart rate variability is still really high, because even years later, it's like you're walking around permanently in that heightened state of fight or flight.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. Think back to the early 2000s. You're flipping through TV channels, and then you hear this.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you learn something from this?

[Megan Elizabeth]

But looking back 20 years later, that iconic show so many of us love is horrifying.

[Ben Westoff]

Robyn, first of all, is too old to be starting model.

[Lola Blanc]

She's huge.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I talked to cast, crew, and producers who were there for some of the show's most shocking moments.

[Sarma Melngiles]

If you were so rooting for her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why don't you help her with never before heard interviews? The Curse of America's Next Top Model examines why this show was so popular and where it all went wrong.

[Sarma Melngiles]

We basically sold Our souls. And they got rich.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Listen to the Curse of America's Next Top model on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ben Westoff]

Whenever I got through the windmill, I tried to pick him up, and his body was stiff. I'm Ben Westoff, and this is the Peacemaker, a true crime podcast investigating a string of mysterious deaths at a prestigious Missouri university and the fraternity brother at the center of it all. A few years back, two fraternity brothers died by suicide. Suicide just weeks apart. In shockingly similar ways. Both were discovered by the same student, Brandon Grossheim. I laid him down and proceeded. I tilted his head back and proceeded to get him mouth to mouth with cpr. At first, people gave Brandon the benefit of the doubt. But when three more acquaintances died the following year, the tide turned. The lawsuit says Grossheim was one of.

[Sarma Melngiles]

The last people to see each victim before. Before their deaths.

[Ben Westoff]

Was he profoundly unlucky, or was something much darker at play? Listen to the Peacemaker podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline.

[Sarma Melngiles]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Lola Blanc]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Sarma Melngiles]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific. And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Lola Blanc]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Did you have a sense that there were otherworldly figures who were judging? Like, who was doing the judging?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Well, he. You know, there's this character of his brother, his sort of omnipotent brother, which he made it seem as if his brother was everywhere at all times. So I got this feeling like I was always being watched. And he never quite said things explicitly. But there were all these times where he would talk about how he could only tell me something in the box, right? As if we were going into some sort of metaphorical skiff where he could only tell me the truth when he did something weird. And then we would be, quote, in the box as he said it.

[Lola Blanc]

Like another dimension of privacy or something.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, yeah. Like he did some weird seance thing, and now all of a sudden, we're not being observed by the higher ups.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's kind of like everything everywhere all at once. But, you know, you, like, do something weird and random to, like, throw off the timeline. And then you can talk really quickly, you know, or. But, like.

[Sarma Melngiles]

But I've seen that movie, but I want to. My God. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I mean, the first time he did it, to my recollection, that did involve, like, blood.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. He was like, I got to. I got to do something. He acted like it was a lot of effort for him to do whatever he had to do so that we could talk in the box and he could. He could be honest with me. So he did whatever he did. He was in the bathroom, then he came out, we had some conversation, and then I went into the bathroom later and there was, like, blood in the sink.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you're like, damn. The box is, like, kind of hard to access. Yeah, it takes some blood.

[Sarma Melngiles]

So much creepy stuff like that.

[Lola Blanc]

Speaking of creepy stuff, I think one thing that is really important. Important to note is that he would know things that you now have plausible explanations for, but at the time, you didn't. Can you tell us about some of that?

[Sarma Melngiles]

He would do stuff like, you know, he would say, so and so is about to call you, so you might want to, like, turn your ring around or something like that. You know, he would say something like, so and so is about to call you. And then, you know, a few minutes later, that person would call. And what I assume now is that because he had access to my email on his phone and I'm maybe doing something, he's probably sitting there, sees an email come in from, you know, whatever Joe Schmo saying, yeah, great, got your message. I'll call you in five minutes. And then he would. Mr. Fox would, like, quickly delete that message. So I never see it. The person calls in five minutes, but he was able to say, so and so is going to call you in five minutes. You know what I mean? Like, I could figure out plausible explanations for a lot of that stuff that he did. Now, some of it I can't necessarily, but a lot of it I could.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. At the time, he seems to have this, like, psychic ability, which just lends credibility to this Persona that he is presenting.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. And. And. And every. You know, again, towards the end, it's like he had an excuse for everything. So even his getting fatter and fatter, he was like, you're supposed to hate me. You're supposed to hate me. I'm supposed to be an asshole to you, and you're supposed to be disgusted by me. You know, I'm tired of walking around in this fat meat suit for you. I gotta do this for you. That was his Excuse for being a big old wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Can you talk about the information overload? This is something I find endlessly fascinating just because we see it now in our world all the time.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're somebody that is trying to keep up with politics, it's impossible. And there's information overload. And so all of these atrocities, one thing after another. I mean, if you think about, like, the current administration and whatever you think about it, like, just insane shit happening and, you know, shattering of norms, and then the next thing happens, and then the next thing happens and the next scandal and the next thing. And so nobody can keep up, and you're just exhausted by it all. And then that allows people to get away with a lot of shit they otherwise wouldn't if we had time to pay attention to that one thing. And so he did a lot of that with me and just bombarding me with stuff all the time and keeping me confused and exhausted. And you know what I understand now, I didn't, of course, at the time is creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation, because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible. And so it's a deliberate tactic.

[Lola Blanc]

I've probably talked about this on here before, and this is a very written story. I apologi. Apologize.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I apologize.

[Lola Blanc]

I apologize. But I was at a gas station once, and. Stop me if you've heard this one before, but I was at a gas station once, and a man came up to me and started shouting at me in another language and then took the gas nozzle. Pump, pump. The pump out of my hand that I had paid for and put it into his car and was just, like, shouting at me in another language.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, that's deliberate.

[Lola Blanc]

So, yeah, so I froze and was like, oh. Cause at first I was like. He made it. He was making it seem like I had done something to him. And so I was just, like, stunned in this, like, confused state. And then, like, it took me, like, 10 seconds of being like, hey. And. And then I, like, ran.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's awful.

[Lola Blanc]

And then I ran inside and told the gas station attendant, and he drove off without even taking it out of his car. So obviously this is, like, a known tactic, but, like, that thing of, like, I'm gonna bombard you and confuse you and so that you don't do anything to stop me. It just felt like a. It feels like a microcosm of that, I guess.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. I mean, it could be used, like, if you were, you know, if somebody started to, like, Drag you into an alley late at night to mug you or something. I've heard of stories where people have used it in self defense, you know, to get away from somebody.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that's smart.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Instead of having a typical reaction of being like, oh, my God, no. What are you doing? Like, doing something so out of left field and bizarre that the person is momentarily stunned long enough for you to just bolt, you know? Anyway, I don't know. It's an interesting tactic.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, we shouldn't practice that because I imagine it takes repetition to have that be your instinct.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I feel like I've gotten myself out of a lot of pickles by just genuinely having a different brain than people expect me to be. And I'm like, why are you wearing that shirt? Well, they're like, mugging me or something. And then they're like, what? And run away. Um.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I love it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's weird.

[Lola Blanc]

Um, I did write down one thing he said in the G chat conversation, because whether he intended to or not, he literally, like, spelled out this tactic.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

The quote is, and it's all washed and mixed with misinformation that appears as lies and good and bad and up and down to make it so there is no on paper choice. It forces you to listen to your heart, not your head, AKA stop thinking because you're so confused and just do whatever I tell you.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. Yeah. Was that, that. Was that like, in the middle of one of his longer rants? It must have been.

[Lola Blanc]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I just, like, noticed those lines and was like, oh, my God, he's literally telling her what he's doing.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know that happens very often. They do kind of tell you what they're doing. And. Yeah, he. He did. He certainly did in that case. And I noticed in some of those things too, where he would say, read this over and over again, you know, which is another, like, drill this into your brain, which is just that concept of, you know, you repeat something long enough you can get smooth over.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. How did he involve your poor mother?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Ugh. Yeah. I mean, he just got into her head as well and then convinced her that I was having issues and he was taking care of me and basically preyed on her as well and got a bunch of money out of her, which is really gut wrenching for me.

[Lola Blanc]

What a terrible person.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. Yeah, it's really gross. I mean, what's so icky on the other side of this is I was reminded in that conversation that you had with your mom on this podcast where she says, and of Course, I mean, what she went through was so hard. I mean, beyond heartbreaking, but just on the other side of it, that realization, I think she said everything I'd been through, everything that I'd lost, had been for someone's sadistic entertainment. Yeah, that really hit me because I sort of went through that too. Just thinking like, oh my God, I've been through this messed up, agonizing hell. And again, what your mom went through is like way worse. So. But either way, just realizing that all of that was, you know, getting them off sadistically, so to speak, and how rough that is. Realize.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I mean, I think like that idea, facing that idea is one of the things that keeps people on the hook so long. Because the realities, the two realities I have to choose between are one where everything's gonna be okay. There's an end to this. It's. All the relief is coming. Like, this was not all for nothing. There was a purpose. Or this sadistic fuck just destroyed my whole life. And I alienated everyone I care about for no reason.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Right. And. And I'm in this massive hole of debt, so I like, owe all these people money. There's either the way out that he keeps promising me with his hypnotic eyes that it's true and it's coming and it's just around the corner, or I have to face like the most epic humiliation and guilt and shame. And of course that ended up being what happened.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, he was like forcing, like how you force quet a Mac. He was like, force, like psychosis almost upon you with just sleep deprivation. Deprivation. Why can't I speak? Deprivation.

[Lola Blanc]

Deprivation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just like, I don't know, it just. It's heartbreaking. And like we said, I think in the first place part of this interview, it's just so unfathomable for non sociopaths to think sociopathically. So to think of somebody just being like, damn, she crawled out of that hole. I'm going to torture her again. Like, let's see what she does. You're like, that wouldn't be fun at all. But like, people like it.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. Yeah, it's really. It's really hard to imagine. And Mark Vicente is. Is coming out with a film called the Narcissist Playbook, I think is what the current title is going to be. But he's coming out with a documentary about narcissists and sociopaths. And I was able to see an advanced copy and I'm. I just like, I can't wait for it to come out. And I think it's going to do so much good because somehow it really lands. Like, it's one thing to read that sociopaths exist or you see it in fictional movies or maybe you even hear some fucked up stories in the news or watch Bad Vegan or whatever, but there's something about his film that it really kind of lands that, oh my God, these people exist and they're, they're out there. And I think that that's part of how these people get away with what they do is because most of us or a lot of us just can't even imagine that that kind of psychology exists.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Or. Or people on TikTok who think everyone is that. I feel like it's one or the other.

[Megan Elizabeth]

One or the other. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

No, but I. I mean, I'm excited to see that we have to have Mark on. I. I can't believe we haven't had him on yet.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know.

[Lola Blanc]

Um, I made a list of excuses that he made.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm gonna be mad about these. I can already tell. I'm looking at them.

[Lola Blanc]

I just, I mean, I could have, I could have pulled even way more. But just to illustrate the goalpost moving, everything is pretty much done and ready to go. Money was moved today. I am waiting on confirmation and should get it today or tonight. It's almost over. Prepare for your life to change forever throughout the week. Tomorrow we will start. It's just like over and over again. Like, you're almost there. You're almost there.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. And also what he got me to do a lot, which I think the term is like future faking. But what he did in not only promising all these things is he got me to get into the headspace of it by getting me to imagine things and asking me to make lists of all of the things I will do as soon as the money comes in. Right. And I mean sort of like what people do nowadays and the whole like manifesting thing. Right. But. And then even the whole thing with that. That big fancy apartment that he said we were going to buy and so we're like going through the apartment and going through the motions and then even though I'm not like a diamond, I don't care about that kind of stuff. But the thing where he took me to the top floor of Tiffany's and acted like he could buy anything and. But yeah, he would ask me to make him list, to make lists of, start to prepare for all of this money coming in. And I'm going to be liberated now to, you know, grow the business in whatever way I Want to. And you know, I found some of those lists, the ones that I had done on my computer, and it was like phase one, phase two. And you know, I'm going to buy the building that the restaurant is in and I'm going to do this and I'm going to pay off of this and I'm going to expand this. And it was all about growing the business. But I think that's a tactic is getting you to get yourself into that fantasy headspace so that it's like baking it in. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He called it H E A Happily ever After. Yeah, Happily Ever after. He a a little acronym to just go right to yourself.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. And, and, and I think that that's there's like a name for it. I know Sarah Edmondson, who also from Nexiv, has talked about it. It basically it's like when they have a word, it's like a thought stopper or something, but it's basically like a thought terminating cliche. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that like I could be making some kind of an argument or something and he'll just say like hea and it's happily ever after. And so that's going to get me to like jolt into that space of thinking about happily ever after, whatever it is. But yeah, he did a lot of that stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

How did he weaponize concepts from the Secret? Like, obviously he's making you envision your dream world without living in the grounded reality of what's going on. But like, you described some other ways that he used that. Yeah, like blaming.

[Sarma Melngiles]

When did the Secret come out? I don't know when. When that happened.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Probably like 2003. I was a big fan.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Oh, I guess it was a very long time ago. It was less that. It was more like later on he talked about the whole parallel realities exist at the same time, which now you hear all the time, people on Instagram and whatever talking about how there's like parall realities and maybe that's what that movie is about that I said I should see it does or everything everywhere all at once. So now it's much more mainstream. But I realized that's how he explained things when he took me away was like we're just sliding into this other reality. And another like sort of Kabbalah ish thing that he said was like at every moment I could go left or I could go right and then the whole trajectory of everything changes and now I'm on a different plane of reality and all of those other realities exist. So. So somehow we could just jump to another One at any time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's, like, giving you ocd, too, in a weird way. You know, Like, I. I don't know. That's a lot to be processing on a daily basis as a working woman.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. And. And there's. There's the. In terms of that sort of secret Y stuff. Something I heard in an. I think it was a podcast interview with one of the Epstein victims where she talked about him sitting her down and looking out the window at this sort of landscape of nature out. I don't know if it was his office or one of his big houses or something. And he had her close her eyes and put his hands on her shoulders and then said, when you open your eyes, everything's different now, and it's all gonna look magical and you're now entering this other realm or something. And she said. I opened my eyes and she said everything looked brighter and more magical. And that's just the power of suggestion. Like, the placebo effect is a real thing. I think we sometimes do stuff like that to me too. You know, and then, like. Yeah. Throw in there that he could make me. He definitely weaponized my age and the fact that that's something that most women are very vulnerable to or, you know, just aging and getting older and. As if he will be able to prevent me from aging. You know, I mean, like, just all that shit.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Like, every possible insecurity in a way that he could get in and.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The promise kind of seemed like, you would be forever 25. Your dog would be with you forever.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then he also seemed to weave in that he would just fuck off and disappear, which was like, the dream.

[Lola Blanc]

That's what you want. Exactly.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. He. He was smooth with that.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. Because I think he figured, like, I think he knew. I mean, again, because I wasn't in love with him, he had to have known that I didn't want to be with him. Right. So therefore, the fantasy had to be that. All about me being able to grow my business and do all this stuff with. With independence. And he's kind of out of the picture.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I can't believe we've already talked for this long. Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm gonna skip ahead a little. Yeah. So the restaurant closed, and you didn't even know about it at first. What went through your mind?

[Sarma Melngiles]

That was the hardest chapter to write. And I don't remember. Like, I remember the moment I found out and absolute sort of panic and fear. And then it's almost as if my brain shut off and the Next memory I have is because he had sent me to Florida. And the next memory I have is being back in New York and walk. I do remember walking in for the first time when it had closed. And I think that's just the, you know, that's like what happens psychologically is we dissociate and forget. But somehow I got myself on an airplane back from Florida to New York. And then, you know, again, I don't remember, where did I go, which apartment was it at that time? And then, and then I remember walking to the restaurant. But that was absolutely devastating. At that point. My options were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like this. How in the world am I going to get this done? Or like, the only other option was that I would have to, like. I would have to like, kill myself because what else would I do, you know? Yeah. I mean, that was the worst part of it. That was way worse than any of the creepy sex stuff or anything else. That was the worst part was when that restaurant was closed. And that fear of, you know, what if I can't get it back open? And what if this is gone?

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, that's your dream. That's your life's work.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Through all of this, what he was dangling to you was the promise that you would be able to achieve your dreams.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And just.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my. I mean, as we enter this kind of third act of the story, it's like, not only has he isolated you. Common tactic, but another common tactic that I didn't really think about, but I've been researching is just taking people out of their environment. And he took you away from your apartment and your home and your safe space. And he just starts moving you around the fricking world like Carmen Sandiego. You're bouncing around and I cannot fathom how untethered you must have felt. How it's just. It's terrifying.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Even right now, I get really upset by. I mean, it's not like I don't travel anywhere these days, but even just recently, somebody wanted to. Somebody wanted me to, you know, like, change some appointments and go to this thing that I'd have to take an Amtrak to just for the day. And I got so upset just of the idea of it. For anybody else, it would be like, why is that such a big deal? Who cares? Either you go or you don't. So you got to change some appointments. Like, what's the big deal? It's just a one day trip. But I got really upset by it because it just reminded Me of being back in that place where at any time. I mean, he did this to me all the time. Total change of plans. I mean, the way he made me pack up that apartment and then I had to unpack it and then pack it all again and then unpack it, and I never knew where I was going to be and for how long. And then he'd have me fly here and go there, and it's probably no wonder that I get crazy about traveling.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally makes sense.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Again, just recap for someone who maybe doesn't know the story, like, this whole time you are essentially like using your contacts to borrow money to take money out of the business. You're, like yelling at him and saying you don't want to do it and like begging him to not make you do it. But it's just like over and over again these like, transfers. These transfers, these transfers. How did the arrest finally happen? What led to the arrest?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Well, I mean, what's strange is that the money that I got from investors, what ended up happening is that I was able to reopen the restaurant. Right? Which, you know, I should be proud of myself for that.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know.

[Sarma Melngiles]

That was quite the.

[Lola Blanc]

No, that was amazing, actually.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I was able to get the restaurant back open. And, you know, that's. That's probably a really hard part for people to read in the story because then of course, you know, he takes me away again. But what's weird is that what I was prosecuted for was mostly the money that I got from investors, which the vast majority of went to reopen the restaurant. It went to pay the back rent and vendors and employees and all that stuff. So it didn't really make sense that I was being charged for defrauding investors because that money went into the reopen the restaurant. It's just that he then took me away again and I disappeared right on the other side of this. How do you explain this insanely complicated, messed up situation, you know, to a prosecutor? And I still naively thought that once they started to look into it, they'd see that he's clearly a criminal con artist. And I lost everything. And so why would they continue charging me as aggressively as they did? But what ended up happening is he took me away and we were driving across the country and that's when he gave me that sort of story about parallel realities. But by then I was completely. I mean, association was hardcore at that point. Like, I really was kind of behaving as a robotic child in a way. And there's so much that I don't remember from that trip, but he just sort of convinced me that, yeah, like, we're in like a parallel reality and, you know, you'll get it all back. It'll all be fine. And on this insane road trip from hell all over the country, at one point, we end up in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, which is among the stranger towns I could even possibly imagine.

[Lola Blanc]

Sounds. Sounds so crazy. Yeah.

[Sarma Melngiles]

It's such a strange place. And one of the things I'll never know for sure is I really feel like he got us arrested on purpose. Like he knew we were going to be arrested and for some reason thought maybe he thought that the way it was going to play out would be different. I don't. I don't really know. But anyway, we were arrested and then I was extradited back to New York and. And handcuffs and in various jails in person, Tennessee jail in that small town. And then being extradited to Rikers in New York, where I spent time at Rikers, too.

[Lola Blanc]

He deleted all of your emails.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Your email exchanges, except for one in which he tries to pin it all on you.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So makes sense to me that he thinks that that would be a useful move for him because he didn't think about fucking Gchat. Also, you do talk about this in the book, and we've talked about this here as well. Coercive control had yet to enter the mainstream as a concept, and it still has yet to truly penetrate the legal system in America, which sucks.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

But can you just briefly describe your jail experience and sort of the deprogramming that happened over time?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. There was never like a wake up moment, you know, and of course, I'm also in the middle of the very strange experience of being in arrested and in jail. And, you know, I've been. I, for the most part, was such a one of those people that never got in trouble. So the idea that I would be in jail was just crazy. And that's sort of traumatic in its own way. So there's never like a wake up moment. It was just this gradual, like, layers of realizing that, oh my God, nightmare, like the worst, the worst, worst, worst case scenario is now coming true. And now this is the reality that I have to face. And I don't know how to explain it. And what we talked about before where that weird paradox of there being something, comfort, comforting about him being around because he's the only one that knows what he's putting me through, so he's the only one who can get me out and now all of a sudden, it's just me and I'm having to face everybody alone. And I don't know how to explain it. I don't know what to say, how to. I mean, it was absolutely brutal, that part of it. And then, yeah, I was at Rikers for, I think about a week, and then I got out on bail. But I just naively thought that surely the prosecutors, once they look into this, will realize that they might not understand what happened. But, like, I'm a good person. I've always been a law abiding good person. I never intended to do anything wrong. And I lost as much as other people lost money and their jobs and stuff. And that was all heartbreaking. And I feel responsible and all the shame for all of that happening. But at the same time, logically, I lost more than everybody. And it's not like I was arrested with bags of other people's money trying to board a plane to Mexico. I was just sitting there in this hotel in Tennessee. And the detective who arrested me, who I write about a lot in the book, he is such a great character. He'd be such a great character, like in a film. His name was Ray Brown, and he knew, like, he knew what he saw. He saw Mr. Fox, he saw me, and he very quickly understood, okay, I get what's going on here. This is a certain type of a con artist which he probably encountered in his long career of dealing with messed up people as a detective. And she's clearly, you know, the zoned out, traumatized victim of his. So he got it, he really understood it. But the prosecutor was a totally different story. And so I ended up being prosecuted and then getting sentenced to go back to write this for four months.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, I think we always talk on the show about, like, when did your shelf break? Or when did you, like, really realize this was a con? But it was one of the first things in the book, and it just struck me as like, damn. Like, even when you were in the first jail in Tennessee, you're like, maybe these are all actors. Like, they're really good actors. They're like, you're in such a state of cognitive despair that you're like, is this just a set? And like, my final test? And that's just wild that your brain is still trying to cling on to some sort of, like, this must be real. This must be real. This must be real. And then that process of, like, slowly being like, God, it's not.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know, I know, but I mean, that's exactly what it how it was is this, maybe some people are gonna show up and whisk me out of here and it's all gonna be okay. But then that, like, little lifeline that I'm trying to hang onto is like, gets thinner and thinner and thinner. And then eventually, you know, eventually I just have to accept the actual reality of what had happened.

[Lola Blanc]

I was very upset to find that he is not in jail and wasn't really for very long.

[Sarma Melngiles]

No, he got out before because he stayed in jail. He was never bailed out. So even though I got a four month sentence, he was only sentenced to a year and he had already completed that, so he was out and free before I had to go back in. And so I'm going in to be locked up while he's out free. And I'm. I'm now having to go in for four months. But the reality is that. That four months wasn't really the worst punishment. The worst punishment was just the overall destruction of everything. Like, I would go to jail for whatever if you told me I could have it all back and just repair everything and rebuild the restaurant or whatever, like the jail in comparison, no big deal. But it was having to come out on the other. On the other side of the whole thing and, you know, feeling like, because of course I'm. I'm not a socio. Like, I feel like it's all my fault. And I feel like all this destruction and all the pain that was caused to other people is my fault because I let this monster in my life. But it happened through me and it feels like it's my fault. And then on top of that, the whole story doesn't even make sense to people. So they don't understand what happened. And so, yeah, it's been a lot on the other side of it.

[Lola Blanc]

So what has your rebuilding process looked like?

[Sarma Melngiles]

I already wanted to write another book, but the story keeps getting more and more interesting because I moved back here to reopen. And yeah, I was brought back here to reopen. And then there was all this stuff that was misleading about it. And then they didn't pay me, and then they put me in a compromising situation and then they demanded that I do X, Y, Z, that I never said I would do. And then friends like, okay, then there's no restaurant and screw you, you're on your own. And by the way, now you're in way more debt.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Sarma Melngiles]

So, yeah, the story continues. And then in the middle of all this, publishing my memoir, which I had thought I was gonna be publishing at the same time as the big restaurant relaunching and reopening and, like, it was going to be this epic comeback, you know, it can still happen, but I'm. I'm in the thick of it right now. And so it's been really strange. I'm happy that the book is out and I'm happy to talk about it, and I'm happy to promote it, but I also, I chose the option of publishing it independently, which is basically like self publishing, because I. It was so important to me to maintain control of the story. And, you know, one of the things we didn't talk about, which is fine because I've talked about it so much on other podcasts that I feel like I'm, like, I sound like I'm a whiny complainer and poor me. But the Netflix show Bad Vegan, like, totally turned my story around and did it in this very messed up way where some people see it for what it was, some people didn't. But they also were supposed to put into that show that I was only paid an amount of money that was equal to what my employees were owed because that's what I wanted. And I so badly wanted my employees to be repaid. So I got 75 grand. All of that went to repay my employees. They were made whole. I got nothing more. But the fucks who made that show and manipulated it so that all these people watch it and think that, like, there's a twisty ending and I was in on it all along, and I'm like a criminal, like Anna Delving, con artist myself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

God, I watched that show and came away thinking you were awesome and great. So I don't know what.

[Sarma Melngiles]

No, I appreciate that, but that's because of the lens that you're. Which you're watching it. But I'm telling you, an enormous amount of people and not like, dodo heads came away thinking, oh, yeah, that's the twisty ending. She's laughing with him on the phone at the end of the show. Oh, my God, she was in on it. And they moved my words around to change what I said to him, right? And those people who did that made millions of dollars from. And I know that for a fact because I know the numbers, I know what they made, and that's. And I. And now it's like I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to, like, keep my shit together, and I have to pay my rent on credit cards and I'm in debt. So it's. It's hard to talk about Because I don't want to wallow in that victim energy. Like, I. It's just a tough thing to navigate because it's hard not to be angry or to want to explain that and then at the same time, not want to, you know, to kind of want to move past that and just put the past in the past and focus on myself. But, yeah, it's tough.

[Lola Blanc]

You gotta talk to my mom. Cause she did have an experience. It wasn't as big of a show as Bad Vegan, but she did have an experience with a TV show that painted her as someone who was just, like, doing it. Cause she, like, wanted to be with this guy and all the, you know.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Like, oh, my God, that's so. I mean, after hearing that podcast just this morning, I listened about the one you did with your mom that was heartbreaking to listen to. And, yeah, it's sickening. And then I remember, I think Steve Haasan told me that. I think he said that that's why he wanted us to be in touch.

[Lola Blanc]

That's why she got her PhD and did her dissertation on the traumatic impact of media misrepresentation, I think is what it's called.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Two things come up for me. Number one, how dangerous it is to be a beautiful woman who is doing something super good in the world because people want to hate and they wanna be like the vegan ordered pizza and cheese and blah, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I. I stand with that. And then number two, like, while acknowledging the very deep despair that is the current moment, like this book and this story is the perfect concoction to help so many people. Because there's just no if, ands and buts around it. You are smart, period. You are like a good person, period. And this horrifying thing happened to you that I'm like, this is going to be a staple of helping so many people get out. Truly.

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I mean, it means so much to me when I. When people are reading my book and they DM me that they feel less alone, they feel less stupid, or that it's really helped them understand their own situation. And the reader that will, I hope, be the most impacted if it could get in their hands is. I just wish a lot of young people would read it, you know, and specifically maybe young women who would identify with some of the things that, you know, characterized my early life or. I would hope that it would get read by young people who haven't been through something like this so that it really sinks in. And if they encounter somebody like this they'll think, huh, this kind of reminds me of that story. And then go, now I have this awareness to look for red flags and just avoid the situation. Because, you know, I don't know, I would think that if I had read a story like mine, that when he started throwing some of these things at me, I might have thought, yeah, this kind of sounds like 100%.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. That means a lot to me that it could help people and also help all the psychologists who study this kind of stuff. Totally. That's like, look, here's all of his words. Here's all of his. Not all of it, but here's a lot of his words. And our back and forth, and I really lay out as much as I could his tactics.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. It is so amazing and so frustrating to read his exact words. I mean, the whole time I'm just like wanting to throw the book across the room. Cause I'm like, fuck this guy, you know? But he's like, he is gaslighting. He is manipulating. He is doing everything, and it's all right there. And I do think that's really useful because we hear these stories a lot of the time and we don't get to see what they're actually literally saying in real time so often. So I think it's really kind of a treasure trove.

[Sarma Melngiles]

And that's part of why I published it, you know, independently, self published, is because I just couldn't bear to have a publisher control my story. After what happened with Bad Vegan, that show on Netflix, I couldn't bear to have somebody take control of the story and manipulate it or control it totally.

[Lola Blanc]

If you had to look for a gem of positivity or like, useful lessons in all of the shit that you waded through, I mean, what. What would those be?

[Sarma Melngiles]

You know, in my story, like, I think I say this in the very beginning, you know, nobody died. What was lost is theoretically recoverable. I thought I was in the process of recovering it and being able to get the restaurant and the business, the brand back, that that still could happen. I just wouldn't need the right partnership with the right people. Because as you imagine, I am left with a lot of trust issues. I think somehow it broke me open in a way that if I imagine if I had just gone forth and one lucky duck blew up, I probably would have had some kind of a crash. I don't know. It's kind of like almost like people go through life and end up having some kind of a crisis that brings you to a place where you're forced to do a lot of self reflection and come to terms with healing all your. It sounds corny, but like healing all your childhood wounds and really examining it all and becoming an extremely self aware person. And weirdly enough, you know, Mr. Fox kept referring to, when you wake up, this will all make sense. Or when you wake up, you won't care about what people think anymore when you wake up. And what's weird is I feel like I've had a kind of awakening.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. Just not in the way that you were expecting.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah, it would have been a lot nicer to, you know, maybe have just gotten really overworked and then done like the Eat, Pray, Love version of it, you know, go to Bali and meditate for a month.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not be bombarded.

[Sarma Melngiles]

That would have been a much nicer awakening than the way that it happened. But speaking of Elizabeth Gilbert, I, you know, I'm fascinated by, I've listened to all her podcasts, writing her new book, and it's funny because she talks about Earth School and, you know, our souls coming here to learn lessons. And I think about that and I'm like. And then my head starts to go into a trippy place because, you know, it then would mean that some of the things that you said were potentially true. But who knows?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I think we talked on an episode we did with and one of our former guests where she was just like. And now I can't think about any of that.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Remember that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

She was like, and now I just have to live in the boring. None of that. But yeah, I'm, I'm prone to thinking that way as well.

[Sarma Melngiles]

So. Yeah, And I mean, cults will weaponize your, you know, if you have an inclination towards, I don't know, any kind of a spiritual spirituality or spiritual life, they'll, they'll weaponize that. But then it becomes hard to figure out where you land on the other side of it because so much of that now is associated with them and the things that they said and.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Sarma Melngiles]

So, you know, you want to reject it completely. It's kind of like somebody who might have been abused in a church or whatever, they're going to completely reject that religion and they don't want anything to do with it. So it's a similar thing. If somebody's kind of weaponized spirituality now, how do you get back to it in a place where you feel comfortable?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. But it is true that when we hit a rock bottom, it can be the doorway into absolutely a new level of self awareness and new level of empathy and connection with other people that we wouldn't have maybe accessed before. But it doesn't mean it was worth it.

[Sarma Melngiles]

No.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But a gorgeous. A gorgeous book that will change lives for sure.

[Lola Blanc]

Tell us the name again and where they can find it.

[Sarma Melngiles]

The name of the book is the Girl with the Duck Tattoo, and it is. Because of the way I published. It's not like. It's not like you can find it in every bookstore, but you can get a signed copy from me, which is the amazing option. You can also get it directly from the printer, which is another good option that bypasses Amazon and is a better. I'm just being like, full disclosure. That's a much better margin for me. And it's the same price as Amazon and. But you can also just get it from Amazon and. And then you can also get the Kindle version on Amazon, which is the most affordable way to get it. And all of those links are. I made a website for the book, just the Girl with the duck tattoo.com that has all of those links. And also I put by chapter photos, so there's tons of photos that you can look at that are listed by chapter.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I'm going to go look at those.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Me too.

[Sarma Melngiles]

My Instagram is where I'm communicate with people most, and that's just my full name at Instagram. I'm pretty easy to find there. And all those links are on Instagram, too.

[Lola Blanc]

Amazing. Thank you so much for talking to us for so long. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Really?

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah. No, I'm. I mean, I'm happy to do it and this is fine. I did a podcast a few weeks ago that was six hours, so that's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Honestly how long I wanted to talk to you. I know, but.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Well, I. This is very different because. Because you guys read the book and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. It's a much, much richer conversation because of that. And also, you know, your personal experiences means that you understand it and it's a much richer discussion. Oh, hey.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I loved it. Everybody go buy the book.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Thank you so much.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you, Sarma, for that incredible conversation.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So last week, Lola, you asked me if I would join this culture.

[Lola Blanc]

I did, and you would, but you can't because you don't have enough money.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I can't afford this, and I also.

[Lola Blanc]

Do not have enough money, otherwise I'd be in it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I did think that there was an interesting takeaway, which is that people have this misconception that somebody can be so smart that this would never happen. To them.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And she went to Wharton. She worked on Wall Street.

[Lola Blanc]

If you read her book, she was one of the most effective people at, like, every job she did.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Basically, she's working at all the big banks. She's running up the ranks. Like, she's a genius of sorts.

[Lola Blanc]

She creates this amazing restaurant, like, truly. And we see it all the time. So many of our guests are so highly educated, so thoughtful, so just incredibly intelligent. It doesn't matter if you get the right person who knows the right tactics to break down your defenses, to break down your critical thinking.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

To overwhelm your time, to confuse you, you know, like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then off to Rikers you go.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, man.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It's scary stuff.

[Lola Blanc]

It really is. But I am so glad that that chapter of her life is over.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Me too. I can't wait to be eating her ice cream someday.

[Lola Blanc]

I know. If there are any, like, money people listening who are not scammers, please invest in her new restaurant. I want to eat there.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Read the book and maybe let's do it in la. Yeah.

[Sarma Melngiles]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Because I can't fly to New York. I can't afford that right now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, we can't.

[Sarma Melngiles]

We can't go there.

[Megan Elizabeth]

As always, thank you so much for listening to another week of Trust Me. Make sure to leave us a review.

[Sarma Melngiles]

We love a review.

[Lola Blanc]

With five stars. With five whole stars.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust Me.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production, hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Jiha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram at Trust Trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trustmecultpodcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Westoff]

Chicago, A white woman's murder. A black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit.

[Sarma Melngiles]

90 years for killing somebody I have never seen.

[Ben Westoff]

The Crying Wolf podcast is the story of a corrupt detective. Two men bound by injustice and the quest for redemption, no matter the price. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Coban, and says, write a book together.

[Sarma Melngiles]

I was asking him basically to let.

[Lola Blanc]

Me into his secret thriller writing world. This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, goes live from Apple SoHo in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coban on their new thriller, Gone Before Goodbye.

[Sarma Melngiles]

You think you're gonna read for 10 minutes and next thing you know, it's 4 in the morning.

[Lola Blanc]

Get the story behind the season's most adjusted addictive read, already a New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Westoff]

Whenever I got through the window, I tried to pick him up and his body was stiff. I'm Ben Westoff, and this is the Peacemaker, a true crime podcast about a string of mysterious suicides at a Missouri university and the fraternity brother tied to them all, Brandon Grossheim. The lawsuit says Grossheim was one of.

[Sarma Melngiles]

The last people to see each victim before their deaths.

[Ben Westoff]

Was he profoundly unlucky, or was something much darker at play? Listen to the Peacemaker podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.