Transcript

Lola Blanc (0:01)

This is exactly right.

Ben Westoff (0:07)

Chicago. A white woman's murder, A black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit.

Sarma Melngiles (0:14)

90 years of killing somebody I have never seen.

Ben Westoff (0:17)

The Crying Wolf podcast is the story of a corrupt detective, two men bound by injustice and the quest for redemption, no matter the price. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Lola Blanc (0:36)

What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Cobin, and says, let's write a book together.

Sarma Melngiles (0:42)

I was asking him basically to let.

Megan Elizabeth (0:44)

Me into his secret thriller writing world.

Lola Blanc (0:49)

This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller Gone Before Goodbye.

Sarma Melngiles (1:01)

You think you're gonna read for 10 minutes and next thing you know it's 4 in the morning.

Lola Blanc (1:04)

Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already a New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Looking for some spooky vibes this season.

Megan Elizabeth (1:19)

We are here to tell you about the return of the cozy, creepy horror podcast Rattled and Shook.

Lola Blanc (1:24)

Rattled and Shook is brought to you by Tenderfoot tv, the creators of the hit horror podcast radio rental.

Megan Elizabeth (1:29)

Rattled and Shook is a weekly horror variety show featuring true scary stories, guests and more.

Lola Blanc (1:34)

The show is an ode to radio programs of the past with old timey music and a slightly retro feel.

Megan Elizabeth (1:39)

In season three, host Meredith Stedman will read and react to haunting tales that are sent in by real people.

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Sarma Melngailis - Part 2: Isolation, Deeper into the Scam, & Getting Arrested

Release Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth
Guest: Sarma Melngailis, author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo

Episode Overview

In the second part of their interview with Sarma Melngailis—best known as the subject of the Netflix docuseries Bad Vegan—Lola and Meagan delve even deeper into the labyrinth of psychological manipulation and coercion that Sarma experienced at the hands of her abuser, referred to as "Mr. Fox." The episode explores how his tactics escalated, leading to financial devastation, emotional isolation, and ultimately, Sarma’s arrest and incarceration. Alongside Sarma's firsthand account, the conversation branches into the broader psychology of cult dynamics, scam tactics, and the aftermath for survivors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Anatomy of the Scam

Shape-Shifting Manipulation:
Mr. Fox’s stories and justifications constantly evolved, making it impossible for Sarma to anchor herself in reality.
- "As is common with these people, the story keeps changing over time...by that point, it was so far gone...he justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests." — Sarma [16:48]
Tests of Loyalty:
"Getting the money was part of that… making me believe none of it mattered, because as soon as we were done with this thing...I'd be able to pay them back double, triple...I was far into the delusion." — Sarma [16:49]
Introduction of Spiritual and Mystical Components:
Mr. Fox leveraged spiritual frameworks, especially references reminiscent of Kabbalah, to rationalize the financial abuse and control Sarma, e.g., "my soul came here and my primary issue to work out...was financial," integrating ideas of energy, ‘light’, and cosmic tests. [18:08-20:34]

Isolation, Control, and Psychological Effects

Sense of Unreality:
Sarma describes existing "with one foot in his reality and one foot...not really knowing what was reality," giving Mr. Fox latitude to convince her of his omnipotence. [18:14]
Confusion and Information Overload:
She was bombarded with details, demands, and changes in narrative, a tactic paralleling tactics used in politics and cults to exhaust critical thinking.
- "Creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation, because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible." — Sarma [32:16]
Fear of Doing Wrong:
Constantly being on edge, worried about “failing a test,” or displeasing Mr. Fox.
- "I still get panicked any time I think I've done something wrong…I was constantly afraid I was doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble, and he would be angry at me, and I would suffer the consequences." — Sarma [25:21]

The "Tests," Gaslighting, and Future-Faking

Moving Goalposts & False Hope:
Mr. Fox repeatedly promised the ordeal was "almost over" and to “prepare for your life to change forever," always keeping the promised resolution just out of reach. [40:14-41:56]
Future-Faking:
He would have Sarma list out what she would do once she got the money—anchoring her in a fantasy future he never intended to deliver.
Thought-Terminating Clichés:
With phrases like "HEA—Happily Ever After" he would shut down Sarma's doubts or arguments, a technique used in high-control groups.
- "I could be making some kind of argument, and he'll just say like, ‘HEA’ and so that's going to get me to like jolt into that space..." — Sarma [42:32]

Fabricated Personas and Surveillance

Fake Emails and Personas:
Mr. Fox created fake email identities, such as his "assistant Will," and carried on two-sided email threads, confusing Sarma and extracting more compliance. [24:01]
"Omnipotent Brother" & ‘The Box’:
He convinced Sarma she was always being watched by otherworldly authority figures unless they were “in the box”—a contrived ritual space where truth could be told if Mr. Fox conducted rituals (often involving blood). [29:02-30:28]

Demonstrations of Power and Coercive Control

Illusions of Psychic Ability:
Mr. Fox would seemingly know things about Sarma’s life before she told him, convincing her of his supernatural capabilities. In hindsight, Sarma suspects he accessed her emails. [30:30-31:34]
Weaponizing Spirituality and the ‘Secret’:
Concepts from The Secret and parallel realities were used to make Sarma believe that every choice (and compliance with his demands) could instantly reshape her destiny. He further manipulated her by promising agelessness, success, and even the immortality of her dog. [42:50-45:09]

Pressures, Breaking Points, and The Crash

Isolation and Travel:
Mr. Fox used constant relocation as a method of control, untethering Sarma from friends, routine, and any anchor to reality.
- "He took you away from your apartment and your home and your safe space. And he just starts moving you around the freaking world like Carmen Sandiego." — Megan [47:31]
Restaurant Closure and Devastation:
The closure of her restaurant, her life’s purpose, was more chillingly devastating than even the sexual abuse.
- "That was absolutely devastating. At that point, my options were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like this. How in the world am I going to get this done? Or like, the only other option was that I would have to like kill myself because what else would I do..." — Sarma [45:56]

Arrest and Aftermath

The Arrest:
After briefly reopening her restaurant with investor funds (which she clarifies mostly went to pay debts, not to herself or Mr. Fox), Mr. Fox took her on a cross-country road trip, ending with their arrest in Tennessee, which she suspects he engineered. [49:34-51:57]
Jail and the Gradual Unraveling:
There was no single awakening moment for Sarma—in jail, layers of denial peeled off slowly, and she gradually accepted reality.
- "There was never like a wake up moment...it's just this gradual, layers of realizing that, oh my God, nightmare...is now coming true." — Sarma [52:40]
- She was extradited to Rikers, where she realized the depth of the manipulation.
- Mr. Fox deleted incriminating emails before their arrest, but left one email attempting to pin blame on her. He ultimately served less jail time than Sarma.

Recovery, Media, and Rebuilding

Media Misrepresentation:
Sarma discusses the additional trauma caused by the Bad Vegan docuseries, which, through editing, depicted her as a possible co-conspirator despite evidence to the contrary.
- "The Netflix show Bad Vegan, like, totally turned my story around...some people see it for what it was, some people didn't...they moved my words around to change what I said to him, right? And those people who did that made millions of dollars from..." — Sarma [59:28]
Purpose of Her Book:
Sarma self-published The Girl with the Duck Tattoo to assert control over her story and lay out in detail the tactics of her abuser, including verbatim exchanges. [63:49]
- "It's so amazing and so frustrating to read his exact words...he is gaslighting, he is manipulating, he is doing everything, and it's all right there. And I do think that's really useful..." — Lola [63:18]
Lessons for Listeners:
Despite her intelligence and education, Sarma fell victim to a manipulative predator, reaffirming that anyone can be targeted by these tactics. "You are smart, period. You are, like, a good person, period. And this horrifying thing happened to you...this is going to be a staple of helping so many people get out. Truly." — Meagan [61:10]
Advice and Reflections:
Sarma hopes her memoir will make people more alert to red flags, especially young women.
- "I'd hope that it would get read by young people who haven't been through something like this...if they encounter somebody like this they'll think, huh, this kind of reminds me of that story." — Sarma [61:59]
- She describes a strange “awakening”—a forced self-awareness and healing that came not through cosmic fulfillment but through surviving the deepest betrayal and loss.

Notable Quotes & Moments

On the Test of Loyalty:
"He justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests. I had to pass these tests." — Sarma [16:48]
On Cognitive Dissonance as a Tool:
"Creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation, because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible." — Sarma [33:13]
On the Experience of Gaslighting and Manipulation:
"It's like being on a treadmill where the speed keeps going up but you’re not allowed to stop running." — Paraphrased throughout episode
On the Long-Lasting Effects:
"Even years later, it's like you're walking around permanently in that heightened state of fight or flight." — Sarma [25:21]
On the Devastation of Her Restaurant Closing:
"That was way worse than any of the creepy sex stuff or anything else. That was the worst part was when that restaurant was closed." — Sarma [45:56]
On the False Hope and Broken Promises:
"Everything is pretty much done and ready to go. Money was moved today. I am waiting on confirmation...It’s almost over. Prepare for your life to change forever.” — Mr. Fox (as quoted by Lola) [40:14]
On Media Misrepresentation:
"They moved my words around...made millions of dollars from. And now it's like I'm trying to, you know, keep my shit together, and I have to pay my rent on credit cards and I'm in debt." — Sarma [59:28]

Timestamps for Key Segments

Explaining the Scam Structure: [16:48–18:08]
Spiritualization and “Tests”: [18:08–21:02]
Fake Personas (Will): [24:01–25:03]
Discussion of Information Overload: [32:06–33:13]
Omnipotent Brother & The “Box”: [29:02–30:28]
Coercive Control and Jail: [52:40–55:12]
Rebuilding & Reflections: [57:33–68:24]
Media & Book Discussion: [59:28–63:49]
Sarma’s Advice for Listeners: [61:58–62:59]

Episode Takeaways

Anyone can fall prey to manipulative tactics, regardless of intelligence or experience.
Perpetrators use confusion, isolation, spiritual justification, goalpost-moving, and fabricated urgency to entrap their targets.
Victims face not just the pain of the incident, but often the pain of disbelief and misrepresentation from the outside world.
Healing is possible, and survivor stories are vital for educating and protecting future generations.

Where to Find Sarma’s Book

The Girl with the Duck Tattoo can be ordered (including signed copies and non-Amazon options), along with supporting material, at [thegirlwiththeducktattoo.com]
Instagram: @sarmamelngailis

FINAL QUOTE

"Somehow it really lands that, oh my God, these people exist and they're out there. And I think that's part of how these people get away with what they do is because most of us just can't even imagine that that kind of psychology exists." — Sarma [39:55]