The Question Atheism Struggles to Answer (It’s Not What You Think)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: The Question Atheism Struggles to Answer (It’s Not What You Think)
Podcast: Truth Unites
Host: Gavin Ortlund
Date: April 22, 2026

In this episode, Gavin Ortlund explores a fundamental question that he believes atheism struggles to answer—one concerning the grounding of moral obligation and human rights apart from a theistic worldview. He examines recent debates involving Steven Pinker and Ross Douthat, using their dialogue as a springboard to discuss the philosophical underpinnings of ethics, consciousness (especially in relation to artificial intelligence), and the origins of human dignity. Ortlund ultimately argues that only theism—specifically Christianity—offers a robust and satisfying foundation for morality and human value.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. AI, Consciousness, and Materialist Inconsistencies

[00:00–02:15]

• The episode opens with a reference to a debate between Ross Douthat and Steven Pinker about whether artificial intelligence (AI) could ever be considered conscious.
• Steven Pinker admits uncertainty:
  “It beats the heck out of me.” [00:44]
• Pinker confesses he wouldn’t attribute consciousness to current AIs and would feel “no compunctions” about turning them off, but concedes it’s impossible to tell if another being (even another human) is truly conscious:
  “It's impossible to tell if any other human is conscious.” [01:28]
• Ross Douthat points out that Pinker’s materialist position undercuts his claim that we should care about others' well-being if we can’t even be sure anyone else is conscious:
  “Aren't you sawing off now the branch on which your entire philosophy rests?” [01:49]
  “The worldview doesn't fit together. You have pieces that don't fit.” [02:15]
• Gavin Ortlund (narrating as “Matt Slick” in this transcript) signals that this patchwork problem is at the heart of atheistic morality.

2. The Foundations and Limits of Secular Ethics

[02:15–06:05]

• Pinker’s strategy for grounding morality references the Golden Rule and shared human interests:
  “We all seek life, health and happiness. And if we claim them for ourselves, we cannot deny them to others…to reduce suffering and enhance flourishing. No thanks to God… but to human reason.” [03:30]
• Ortlund critiques this, distinguishing between the Golden Rule as a guide for moral behavior and the absence of an underlying reason for why moral obligation exists at all in a materialist framework.
• He uses analogies from the animal kingdom (chimpanzee aggression) to show that merely seeking well-being isn’t enough to establish obligations—something foundational is missing.
• Raises the question: If moral obligations are just what works for social stability, why should we treat others well when it no longer benefits us or society?
• He contrasts this with the theistic approach, arguing the Judeo-Christian view provides “a metaphysical ground that explains in a satisfying way moral obligation.” [06:05]

3. The “Image of God”—A Historical and Metaphysical Foundation for Rights

[06:05–09:05]

• Douthat’s position:
  “It's good to believe that you should love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor is made in the image of the Creator of the cosmos.” [06:05]
• Ortlund reflects on how concepts like “human rights” found in the Declaration of Independence are “amazingly theological”—the language of being “created equal” and “endowed by our Creator with certain rights” implicitly draws from Christian theology.
• He asks rhetorically:
  “If you lose the endower, can you keep the thing endowed? If you put a strike through the word created in the Declaration of Independence, can you keep the word equal?” [07:47]
• Points to historian Tom Holland’s claim (from Dominion) that our moral instincts in the West are heirs of a Christian worldview.
• Douthat further presses:
  “What happens in Dr. Pinker's argument is that as an heir of Jewish and Christian civilization, he imports... metaphysical propositions about ... human rights that no one has ever seen of or heard of. He cannot show me a human right under a microscope.” [08:47]

4. The Limits of Non-Theistic Motivation and Obligation

[09:05–10:19]

• Ross Douthat challenges Pinker:
  “Where does morality, like a duty to help a stranger, care for the vulnerable ... come from without religion?” [09:53]
• Pinker responds, somewhat dismissively:
  “Are you kidding? Can you not think of a single reason why it's good to give blood other than that God will punish you if you don’t, or your preacher told you to.” [10:11]
• Ortlund notes that Pinker reduces religious motivation to fear of punishment or desire for reward, whereas Christianity offers a deeper reason—humans' unique status as image bearers of God.
• Points out the challenge for non-theistic worldviews to justify “robust moral obligation,” particularly when it may go against self-interest.

5. The Big Question: Can Atheism Provide a Lasting Moral Foundation?

[10:19–End (~12:30)]

• Ortlund presents the driving question:
  “Can human beings really live off of this worldview for society? Can atheism provide a moral framework that is robust enough to endure over time amidst the changing winds of human culture?” [10:30]
• Explores whether atheism can ground moral obligations with enough authority to stand even when inconvenient.
• Highlights Christianity’s claim:
  “Human beings have intrinsic value because they are made in the image of God. And the finger pointing … from that famous painting, that happens every human soul is given dignity from God.” [11:23]
• Emphasizes that Christianity provides not only a metaphysical ground for moral obligation, but also hope—God is active and will “bring good to triumph over evil.”
• Concludes that Christianity offers a worldview that “makes a lot of sense of these things that we have a deep intuition and awareness of in our hearts, like the special value of human beings.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Steven Pinker:
  “It beats the heck out of me.” (on whether AI is conscious) [00:44]
  “It's impossible to tell if any other human is conscious.” [01:28]
• Ross Douthat:
  “Aren't you sawing off now the branch on which your entire philosophy rests?...You have pieces that don't fit.” [01:49–02:15]
  “It's good to believe that you should love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor is made in the image of the Creator of the cosmos.” [06:05]
  “He imports ... metaphysical propositions about ... human rights that no one has ever seen of or heard of.” [08:47]
• Gavin Ortlund (as Matt Slick):
  “If you lose the endower, can you keep the thing endowed?” [07:47]
  “What is it out there in the depths of reality that makes the Golden Rule a golden rule and not just a golden ideal?” [10:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–01:49] — Opening: AI, consciousness, debate clips with Pinker and Douthat
• [02:15–03:30] — Critique of the self-contradiction in atheistic morality
• [03:30–04:12] — Pinker’s ethical foundation: the Golden Rule and human reason
• [04:12–06:05] — The inadequacy of the Golden Rule as a moral foundation absent theism
• [06:05–07:47] — Human rights “endowed by our Creator”: the historical argument
• [07:47–08:47] — The question: Can we have rights without an endower?
• [08:47–10:19] — The challenge of grounding moral duties without religion
• [10:19–End] — The central question: Can atheism bear the weight of moral obligation?

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Summary Takeaway

Ortlund’s episode examines the philosophical challenge of grounding morality without God, especially in the face of advances in AI and changing social landscapes. Drawing on debates among leading thinkers, he argues that secular ethics often smuggle in assumptions from a theistic heritage—assumptions they cannot independently justify. Only Christianity (and, to some extent, broader theism), he contends, offers the metaphysical grounding for human dignity, moral obligation, and hope, while atheism leaves “pieces that don’t fit.” The episode is both a critique of materialist approaches and an invitation to rediscover the foundations of moral value in the Christian tradition.

Transcript

[Matt Slick]

There's one question that I think atheism really struggles to answer. Well, it's a question you can bring up in just about any conversation you're in. It's a question that helps believers when you're having doubts or you're wondering what if I'm wrong? Or when God just feels very distant. Now I'm going to say what that question is at the end of this video. We'll build to get there. I want to start with a fascinating point that Ross Douthat made to Steven Pinker in a recent debate.

[Ross Douthat]

They had if AI is able to achieve consciousness, Mr. Douthit, then what Then didn't.

[Interviewer or Host]

Well, first of all, I'm curious if Dr. Pinker thinks that AI is already conscious since it. If. If you think that the intelligence of existing AI agents is an indication that humans are not so impressive after all. Or, you know, is it are AI's conscious right now?

[Steven Pinker]

It beats the heck out of me.

[Matt Slick]

I'll link to that debate below. Check it out. Fascinating debate, but just remember that answer as we go. Now we're going to keep playing the tape. Ask yourself, is what Pinker says next consistent with what he just said?

[Interviewer or Host]

There's okay, so we should be agnostic and not kill them, right? Well, shouldn't turn it off just to be safe.

[Steven Pinker]

If there was, I would not attribute consciousness to the current generation of AIs. I'd feel no compunctions about pulling the plug. Who knows what would happen if we had a Lieutenant Commander Data? Something that was so convincingly human that it would engage our empathy and make it very difficult to deny consciousness to it? Personally, I don't think it would be conscious.

[Interviewer or Host]

Why not?

[Steven Pinker]

But I couldn't. The thing about consciousness in the sense of pure sentience, first person subjective experience, is that by definition you can't tell if anyone else has it. Including, of course, other humans, that is. It's impossible to tell if any other human is conscious.

[Interviewer or Host]

Aren't you sawing off now? The branch on which your entire philosophy rests? You've spent the whole evening telling us it's self evident we don't need Christianity. It's self evident that we should care about the well being and feelings and experiences of other human beings. And now you're telling me that you can't even tell if I have those feelings at all. Well, this is what I mean by the self undermining nature of the materialist project, right? The worldview doesn't fit together. You have pieces that don't fit.

[Matt Slick]

So remember that language from Ross pieces that don't fit. Okay, keep that in the back of your mind. We'll come back to that. I think Ross is tapping into an inconsistency here or a sense of disjointedness in an atheistic worldview. Or at least most expressions of atheism put it like this. If you're not sure when AIs become conscious, why not err on the side of caution and never terminate them unless you had to? Or something like that. Once that question came into view, Pinker seems to pull back a little bit in his answer. And he's saying, you know, personally, I don't think a Lieutenant Commander Data would be conscious. And in the context of their discussion, he seems to be appealing to an intuition most of us have that human beings are special. There's something valuable about human beings. But in the context of a strictly naturalistic view of atheism, like what Pinker espouses, it's unclear why that would be. Suppose an AI did become just as intelligent as us. You're not sure if it's conscious, but it betrays all the features of consciousness. Why wouldn't it merit just the same ethical obligations that human beings have? It's a fascinating question. Now, earlier in their discussion, Pinker grounded our ethical obligations in something like the Golden Rule.

[Steven Pinker]

We all seek life, health and happiness. And if we claim them for ourselves, we cannot deny them to others. We have a capacity for reason which can be amplified by education, science and free inquiry. This gives us a common mission to apply science and knowledge to reduce suffering and enhance flourishing. We know this can make us better off because it has made us better off. We have doubled our lifespans, decimated poverty and slashed the toll from crime, war and accidents. No thanks to God, nor to an indifferent universe, but rather to human reason of apply to human flourishing. Thank you.

[Matt Slick]

Let me put his opening words up on screen Here. We all seek life, health and happiness. Here's the logic. And if we claim them for ourselves, we cannot deny them to others. So this is an appeal to the Golden Rule. Essentially. But the Golden Rule is a tool for determining what moral behavior should look like. It doesn't in itself explain why moral obligation exists in the first place. It's more of a moral guide than a moral foundation. The big question is why should we treat our neighbor as ourself? Why are you obligated to care about others life and health and happiness just because you care about your own? The step from I care about these things to therefore I'm obligated to Treat others with sensitivity to those things is not self explanatory. That's certainly not how the animal kingdom works. You know, if you have a chimpanzee community carrying out a violent raid against another chimpanzee community, you would need to say something more. Say there's a chimpanzee community on the north side of the river going over and slaughtering all the chimps on the south side of the river. And you wanted to say, well, you ought not to do that. You'd need to say something more than just, the chimps on the south side of the river don't like that, they don't want to be slaughtered. Well, of course they don't. That doesn't establish genuine moral obligation in and of itself. When we look at human civilization, we have the same need. You need some kind of foundation for moral obligation that goes beyond this generally helps society and something that can account for our particular obligation to human beings. Again, an advanced AI might also seek life, health and happiness. Now a theist has a metaphysical ground that explains in a satisfying way moral obligation. Here's how Ross puts it.

[Interviewer or Host]

It's good to believe that you should love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor is made in the image of the Creator of the cosmos. And it's good for human beings to believe that human life itself has a special and particular value, particularly in a moment when digital technology and artificial intelligence threatened to make many human lives feel almost obsolete.

[Matt Slick]

So this is the old idea of creation in the image of God. We just take this for granted today. I find in the modern west this idea is implicit in so much of our moral reasoning, but sometimes we don't even notice it. So take for example the second sentence of the Declaration of Independence and this amazing statement that we're created equal and endowed by our Creator with certain rights. Now if you stop and really think about this sentence, it's an amazingly theological statement. This is said to be self evident, and yet this was not self evident to most human cultures that everyone has those rights. Tom Holland makes this case in Dominion, his wonderful and famous book. But I think he's right that we just take that for granted in the modern West. But that was an idea, and I've argued for this in other videos. That's an idea that has a particular history and the Judeo Christian tradition has shaped that to a large degree. If you stop and think about this, it's an amazing thing to say that we're endowed by our Creator with rights. The verb endow means to provide with or to Give. You might think of a wealthy benefactor endowing a university with funding or property. So to be endowed with rights by God, I mean, it's an amazing sentence. You almost makes you think of, like, you know, the finger of God reaching down and touching someone and saying, I give you rights or something like that. You can agree with that theological statement or you can disagree with that, but it's implicit in our culture. And it's certainly fair to ask, if you lose the endower, can you keep the thing endowed? If you lose the Creator, can you keep the rights? If your father gives you lunch money every day and you go to school one day and your father's out of town, he's not there to give you the lunch money, you're going to make extra provisions, you're going to ask your mom for lunch money, or you're going to, you know, pack a lunch or something like that. If you lose the endower, can you still buy lunch or are you going to go hungry? In the same way, if you put a strike through the word created in the Declaration of Independence, can you keep the word equal? If you put a strike through the word endowed, can you keep the word rights? Maybe, but you'd need to provide an alternative explanation for that or. Or else you might be kind of implicitly borrowing from a theistic worldview without even realizing it. And this is something Ross points out.

[Interviewer or Host]

What happens in Dr. Pinker's argument is that as an heir of Jewish and Christian civilization, he imports as this kind of commonsensical position metaphysical propositions about the existence of these human rights that no one has ever seen of or heard of. He cannot show me a human right under a microscope.

[Matt Slick]

So note that word heir. This. There he's saying the humanitarian values that Pinker champions are a kind of heir to Christian metaphysics, particularly a Christian view of human beings. And this makes sense logically because of this connection between an endower and the thing endowed. And historically, I think a good case can be made for Christian influence in our moral instincts on this point. I talk about that in my video about slavery in the Bible. And if you want a fuller case about this logical connection between God and human rights, I know that's unpopular today. I know most many people don't believe in that. I've argued for that in these videos. I'll put two examples up on the screen and all this will be linked below in the video description. You can check it out. But Steven Pinker doesn't accept that there's a connection between God and human rights.

[Ross Douthat]

Studies have shown that more religious people are more likely to donate blood, give to charity. Where does morality, like a duty to help a stranger, care for the vulnerable? Moderation, fidelity, where does that come from without religion?

[Steven Pinker]

Are you kidding? Can you not think of a single reason why it's good to give blood other than that God will punish you if you don't, or your preacher told you to.

[Matt Slick]

But here, Pinker is reducing religious motivation to fear of punishment or desire for reward in the future. The deeper motivation that applies right now in the present is what is that human being to whom I give blood or give charity or serve in some way or another? You either believe that person is made in the image of God and therefore endowed with certain rights, or you don't believe that. And if you don't believe that, it's hard to maintain a genuine, robust moral obligation. And so that leads to the question that I think atheism struggles to answer. And it's this, can human beings really live off of this worldview for society? Can atheism provide a moral framework that is robust enough to endure over time amidst the changing winds of human culture? And individually, can atheism provide a vision of moral obligation that is robust enough to follow even when it cuts against your personal interests? What is it out there in the depths of reality that makes the Golden Rule a golden rule and not just a golden ideal or a golden vision that we should like to come to pass? Where does that authoritative dimension to moral obligation actually come from? Atheism doesn't have a ready apparent mechanism to explain that. Christianity does, as do other forms of theism. Christianity says, and this is so beautiful and so thrilling to think of when we come back to it, we say, wow, this has changed all of human history and it will make the difference in your life as well? Christianity says human beings have intrinsic value because they are made in the image of God. And the finger pointing that I showed from that famous painting, that happens every human soul is given dignity from God. That gives you a metaphysical grounds for moral obligation. It also gives you moral hope. Because the same God who gives us that moral dignity, those moral rights, doesn't just do that and then step out of human history. He's also actively at work. And one day we'll bring good to triumph over evil, which is thrilling. So what I'm trying to get into here, moral obligation is one little window into a larger world. And on other points I would ask the same question, is, can you really live off of atheism when you think it through front to finish can you really base your life on that? And what I'm proposing in my book, why Christianity Makes Sense, is that Christianity makes a lot of sense of these things that we have a deep intuition and awareness of in our hearts, like the special value of human beings. But it also is thrilling and wonderful. It makes emotional sense, and it provides a sense of beauty and a sense of hope and dignity along the way. I'll put a link to my book in the video description as well. Thanks for watching everybody.