Episode 384 - Champ | The Lake Monster That Almost Ate Corinne

Summary

Two Girls One Ghost
Episode 384: Champ | The Lake Monster That Almost Ate Corinne
Release Date: August 2, 2026
Podcast by Sony Music Entertainment
Hosts: Corinne Vien & Sabrina Deana-Roga

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Corinne and Sabrina dive deep into the legend of "Champ," the famed cryptid lake monster of Lake Champlain, Vermont—a creature with a rich local legacy and personal significance for Corinne, who shares her own close encounter. The episode blends researched history, science, indigenous lore, and personal anecdotes, all wrapped in the hosts' signature humorous and affectionate banter.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Birthday Banter & Introduction (02:16–06:14)

• The episode opens with birthday wishes for Corinne, who is about to turn 33.
• Discussion on keeping presents a surprise and the ritual of buying cards.
• Shoutout to Trident Booksellers in Boston.

Memorable Moment:

“This is not just any old lake. Geographically speaking, Lake Champlain is one of the most ancient and unusual lakes in North America.”
— Corinne (12:12)

2. Introducing Champ: The Lake Champlain Monster (06:07–11:28)

• Corinne chooses Champ as her birthday episode topic, sharing its personal resonance.
• Teaser: Corinne survived an alleged Champ encounter.
• Introduction to the famous 1977 Sandra Mansi photograph, considered one of the most compelling pieces of Champ evidence.
• The photo was later authenticated as untampered by scientists at the University of Arizona.

Key Quote:

“It was very clear that whatever was in that photo was actually there.”
— Corinne (08:19)

3. The Legend Grows: Champ vs. Nessie & Theories of Origin (09:38–11:28)

• Discussion of cultural attitudes: Champ is beloved, seen almost like a pet mascot, whereas Nessie (Loch Ness Monster) is regarded with awe and a measure of fear.
• The idea that Champ and Nessie could be distant, even prehistoric, cousins.

4. Lake Champlain: Geography and Geology (11:29–24:24)

• Overview of the lake’s massive size (107–125 miles long, up to 14 miles wide, depths up to 400–700 ft, 600 miles of mostly untouched shoreline).
• Its ancient roots: shifting from a tropical coral sea billions of years ago, through glaciation, to today’s fresh water body.
• Notable fun facts: the world’s oldest known fossil reef is located here.
• Discussion of how such an environment is perfect for an elusive and possibly undiscovered creature.

Quote:

“There’s something ripe for a cryptid or just ancient, unidentified creature to live in.”
— Corinne (15:11)

5. Indigenous Lore & Early Sightings (26:43–34:53)

• The Abenaki and Mohawk tribes told stories of “horned serpents” long before European settlement.
• Samuel de Champlain (1609) possibly relayed Native stories of the monster—miscredited as the first European to report a sighting.
• Captain Crumb’s 1819 account (exaggerated details, e.g., 187 ft long, three teeth, "eyes like a peeled onion," a "red belt") is considered dubious.
• Cluster of credible 19th century sightings, especially July-August of 1873:
  • Railroad workers, farmers, and a sheriff reported seeing or encountering the creature.
  • Steamship WB Eddy reportedly struck an unknown large creature.

Key Quote:

“Sightings continue to roll up all the way to today, where Champ has over 300 documented sightings.”
— Corinne (33:57)

6. P.T. Barnum, Media, and Champ’s Pop Culture Status (32:46–34:53)

• P.T. Barnum offered a $50,000 bounty (equivalent to over $1M today)—sparking “hunt the monster” mania.
• No one ever caught Champ; the lore grew alongside Vermont and New York’s embrace of their cryptid mascot.

7. Corinne’s Personal Encounter (34:53–39:13)

• Corinne recounts a harrowing experience while tubing in high school:
  • She and her dad saw a segmented, blackish serpentine creature, 8–10 inches thick, surfacing and riding the boat’s wake beside them for up to a minute.
  • Both were terrified, her dad (usually fearless) told her, “Do not let go,” as they desperately waited to be reeled in.
  • Corinne questions whether it was a juvenile Champ, as the part they saw wasn't massive.

Notable Moment:

“It’s one thing to see Champ from the safety of a boat. It’s another thing to have a foot and a half away from you, some serpent-like creature riding the wake next to you.”
— Corinne (39:16)

8. Modern Evidence for Champ (40:20–46:51)

A. The Sandra Mansi Photograph (1977)

• Photo authenticated as untampered; displayed at ECHO Leahy Center for Lake Champlain in Burlington.

B. The Alforder & Beaudet Video (Summer 2005)

• Two fishermen captured grainy digital footage of a multi-humped, serpent-like creature.
• Reviewed by retired FBI forensic analysts, found authentic and unmanipulated.

C. Underwater Echolocation Recordings (2003, peer-reviewed science)

• Hydrophone recordings detected high-pitched, biological echolocation sounds (like dolphins or beluga whales), not matching any known local animal.
• Suggests the presence of an evolved aquatic mammal.

Key Quote:

“It was animal communication found in a small group of mammals.”
— Corinne (47:26)

9. Explanations: Prehistoric Survivors, Misidentifications, and More (50:59–55:17)

• Popular theory: Champ could be a surviving plesiosaur (marine reptile from the Triassic–Cretaceous) or a primitive whale (Basilosaurus).
• Movement reportedly mammalian (up and down, not side-to-side like a fish or snake).
• Other explanations (ruled out by hosts): sturgeons, garfish, boat wakes, logs (“that is bait, y’all” with reference to fish size).
• Champ is now a legally protected species; harming it is against the law.

10. Listener Story: The Not-Deer (57:56–63:40)

• Sabrina reads a listener’s “not deer” story from the Lake Champlain area—a grotesque, uncanny humanoid/deer hybrid, adding to the theme of strange, unexplained creatures in the region.
• Discussion of “not deer” lore and its unsettling aura in Appalachian and Adirondack folklore.

Notable Story:

“[The deer] was now standing up like a person ... its head turned, looking directly at me ... I had this feeling that it was human, intelligent, like it was waiting for me.”
— Listener “TJ” (61:17)

11. Closing Thoughts: Community & Ongoing Lore (55:16–64:09)

• Champ as a local symbol, sports mascot, and icon of Vermont pride.
• Call to action for more listener stories about Champ and other Vermont cryptids.
• A running joke about maple “creamies” (Vermont’s distinctive soft-serve) and wedding memories.
• Sabrina points out that, to her, "Champ" is an inseparable part of Corinne’s own lore.

Key Quote:

“If there was a book about you, it would start with ... strong believer in Champ from Vermont, has seen Champ, believer, creamy lover, Champ survivor.”
— Sabrina (57:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Whales are deer from the past.”
  — Corinne (15:47) (debunked live by Sabrina)
• “I find Champ more fascinating than Nessie.”
  — Corinne (10:17)
• “So many people have seen something on Lake Champlain for a very long time. But the most compelling evidence comes from modern day.”
  — Corinne (40:14)
• “The locals have fully accepted Champ as one of our residents and believe that it does live in our waters. So now it’s time for you to believe, too.”
  — Corinne (55:32)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:13 – Birthday greetings and card-giving anecdotes
• 06:12 – Announcement: Corinne's topic is Champ
• 07:46 – Sandra Mansi’s landmark sighting and photograph
• 12:49 – Geography and formation of Lake Champlain
• 19:35 – Discovery of ancient coral reef in Vermont
• 26:43 – Indigenous lore: “horned serpents”
• 28:10 – Captain Crumb’s strange description
• 31:35 – 19th-century credible official sightings
• 32:46 – P.T. Barnum issues a bounty for Champ
• 34:53 – Corinne recounts her personal Champ encounter
• 40:20 – Review of three modern pieces of Champ evidence
• 55:17 – Vermont protects Champ by law
• 57:56 – Listener “Not Deer” story
• 62:46 – Call for more Champ sighting submissions

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Episode Tone & Language

• Warm, self-deprecating, and peppered with inside jokes.
• Friendly rivalry about cryptozoology research prowess.
• Curious, skeptical, but open-minded approach to legends and science.
• Playful regional pride for Vermont and its local quirks.

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Recap

This episode is an immersive, affectionate celebration of Lake Champlain’s enduring monster legend—part earnest exploration, part personal memoir. The hosts blend rigorous research with local color, scientific analysis, and lived experience, positioning Champ not just as a mysterious cryptid but as a cherished member of the Vermont community.

The episode is a must-listen for cryptid enthusiasts, lovers of folklore, and anyone curious about how place, story, and personal experience intertwine to create legends that linger just below the surface.

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To share your own strange story or Champ encounter, email twogirlsoneghost.podcastmail.com

Transcript

[A]

Yeah, summer is fun and great, but just because there's more daylight doesn't mean that fixes the hard stuff. Which is why we're so grateful to be partnering with Grow Therapy. They do therapy differently, so they work to help people find care they can afford. It's insurance friendly and easy to start and stay with. And I have been using therapy for years. No one should have to choose between paying rent and getting mental health care. Which is why I'm so grateful for Grow Therapy. It's affordable, it's flexible. Grow connects you with a therapist who fits you, your schedule, your insurance, what you need. And you can switch without a guilt trip if it's not a fit. Grow Therapy offers both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. There's no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans and sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as zero do depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com TGOG to get started. That's growtherapy.com TGOG growtherapy.com TGOG availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook. Very spooky. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

God, I'm so sweet. But to Corinne, Happy birthday. Thanks.

[B]

I Doesn't it feel so inauthentic?

[A]

It feels so inauthentic. Which is why June 1st I'm also giving you.

[B]

But my birthday's August 3rd.

[A]

Remember I told you I have your card? Yeah, but I didn't write it yet because I don't want. I want to write it and seal

[B]

it and open it on actual birthday. We recorded your birthday episode before this one. So when you say, remember I said I had your card, you'll hear that

[A]

conversation like three weeks Crin's having a baby.

[B]

Yeah, things are all out of order.

[A]

We're recording so many episodes that you don't feel like we're like Crin's on maternity leave. No.

[B]

Just two things. Oh, do you have it right now? Yeah.

[A]

I'm telling you, I want to show you the card, but I'm gonna write it.

[B]

This is the most you ever. Because you can't. You can't keep a secret. You can't, like, hold a gift. So even though you're not ready to give it, you still want me to see it.

[A]

Well, and I bought it six months ago.

[B]

This is so funny.

[A]

I've also. There's so many cards that I. This is, like, the perfect representation of who I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've also bought you so many cards over the years. Cause when I see a card, like, I'll be at.

[B]

I see in a card box.

[A]

I'll be at a store, and I'll see a card and be like, oh, I want to get that for so and so for this event.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the event comes up, and then I never give them a card. So I literally have, like, just a stockpile of cards. But I was so proud of myself for this one, because I actually remembered it, and I actually have. Has nothing written inside of it right now.

[B]

It's perfect. This is so perfect, because literally five seconds ago, when we took a bathroom break, I was watching a clip of Heated Rivalry.

[A]

Amazing show.

[B]

The people turn off the heat. It's your birthday. Time to celebrate. Oh, my God. That's so good. I love it.

[A]

The heated Rivalry birthday card.

[B]

Did you have to order this online or did you just find it?

[A]

No, I found it. That's why I was like, I have to get it for you.

[B]

On the back, it says, I'm coming to the cottage. Who made this? Wow. Genius.

[A]

I got it.

[B]

Artwork by Laura

[A]

Sheminsky. Oh, is it? I don't know. I just made that up. In collaboration with the found from Trident Bookstores.

[B]

Trident has the best.

[A]

Exactly. The card collection.

[B]

Trident has the best card collection.

[A]

Okay. Now I need it back. Okay. Because I will write a message for you that you can read on August 3rd.

[B]

Trident. If you're in the Boston area, it's on Newberry Street. At the very end, they have a cafe so you can go there for breakfast. Amazing cards.

[A]

You actually can go there all day. Their food is amazing. Yeah.

[B]

Good selection of books. And there's kind of like a hidden door speakeasy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Area that, like, once a month they have, like, guest lectures, like professors from.

[A]

A bunch of different stuff there.

[B]

Yeah. And you can go. Yeah, it's a.

[A]

It's a place. What's her Name Zendaya, when they were filming the drama in Boston, would go there a lot.

[B]

Oh, really? Damn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shucks. When I used to work on Newberry street, that's where I'd go for, like, my meetings.

[A]

That's a great one.

[B]

I was like, do you want. Do you want to cook a breakfast?

[A]

Yes, it's great. Love it. Okay.

[B]

But yeah.

[A]

Happy birthday, Corinne.

[B]

Did we say it's two girls, one ghost? No, this is two girls, one ghost.

[A]

Two girls, one ghost. We hope you clicked on the right podcast. We're a ghost. This is. I'm. That's Corinne, the birthday girl. Well, I was gonna that. Anyway. That's the birthday girl, Corinne. I'm Sabrina, this is Sven, and we're turning 33. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel nothing about it, actually, because everyone. Because everyone I'm hanging out with is 27.

[B]

So I feel like it says that, like, you hit 30 and then the next one's 40. Yeah, I feel like 35, maybe a wash in between.

[A]

And I'm sure if I'm still single at 35, I'm very concerned about my life, but, you know, because I want to have kids, but I don't need a man to have kids. Anyway, this is your birthday. Let's. Let's not talk about me and depressing things.

[B]

Okay. Well, I chose a topic that relates to me in every way to make this even more about myself.

[A]

It's your birthday. You should do whatever you want.

[B]

A story about a Vermont cryptid who's the mascot to our local baseball team, who I have physically seen with my own eyes.

[A]

You've almost been touched by it.

[B]

Yeah. Almost eaten alive by this.

[A]

Which one's worse, being touched by or eaten alive by it?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

You survived.

[B]

I survived. This is my. I survived champ. The lake monster episode.

[A]

Woo. Are you going to start off by telling that story again?

[B]

I was going to tell it later,

[A]

but tell it whenever you want.

[B]

Okay, I'll tell it later because I have a different little narrative to begin with.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

July 5th, 1977. It's a Tuesday afternoon and Sandra Mancy is on vacation. She's taking a road trip with her then fiance and her two kids. And they're just driving around the gorgeous Vermont New York area. And they're on the border, right on the lake, Lake Champlain. The sun is out, the water's calm. The bees are buzzing, the crickets are humming. Enter the first 15 seconds of Noah Khan's song August. That is the vibe. Perfect summer day and Sandra's kids are playing at the water's edge. Sandra's watching them. She's relaxing, she's letting her mind wander, when all of a sudden, something catches her eye. It is something about 150ft out from where she's sitting on the beach. And it breaks the water, and it emerges out of the water. It's long, it's dark, it's got this grayish neck, and it looks like it has this rounded back, and it's rising slowly, and it, like, kind of looks around a bit, and it's just.

[A]

Oh, she sees the head.

[B]

Yeah. She's literally seeing, like, the body and the. This, like, serpent, like, head. And it's 150ft out in the water, and it's looking around, and it's just chilling there. And it's giving her enough time that she actually, like, gets off of her chair, like, whatever she's sitting on. She walks back to her car, grabs her camera. The Kodak Instamanic. Instamatic, sorry. Goes back to the water. It's still there. And she snaps a single photograph of the creature just in time before it starts to sink back down into the water. So it was there for several minutes.

[A]

It was waiting for its close up.

[B]

It was. Sandra got the photo developed, and for three years, she kept the developed photo in her drawer and never brought it up, Never showed anyone. But then eventually the photo was finally published. Scientists at the University of Arizona ran it through every digital enhancement tool they had, and there was no evidence of tampering.

[A]

Well, it's also 1980.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like you have Photoshop and computers that manipulate things like that. Yeah, totally.

[B]

I might be making this up, but isn't the Kodak Instamatic? I feel like that was one of the cameras that came up and, like, the Polaroid Ghost. The Polaroid Ghost.

[A]

I don't remember the specific camera. I do think it was, like, a Kodak something. Yeah.

[B]

Cause I'm like, wasn't there one that people were trying to get the. It was discontinued, but it was like how spirits could easily manipulate.

[A]

Catch ghosts on camera. That should be their no slogan.

[B]

Ghost hunter's dream. Okay, so basically, there was no evidence of tampering. It was very clear that whatever was in that photo was actually there and it wasn't staged. And so the object appeared to be real, whatever it was, and it was in that lake. And that is what people could conclude and deduce from this photo. But what it was, no one knew. But this would become Champ, the beloved lake monster of Lake Champlain.

[A]

I do love how beloved Champ is.

[B]

Champ.

[A]

Because it's terrifying.

[B]

Well. Cause I feel like when people talk about Nessie from Loch Ness, it's like it comes with some fear and love. Love, too. But, like.

[A]

But it's like a massive creature in any way. Even if there is, like, a love and appreciation for it. Like, the same way you feel about Bigfoot, there's also. It comes with fear because it's the unknown. It's massive. We haven't fully understood it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Scary.

[B]

But, Champ, for some reason, in our own little delusions over in the Lake Champlain area, it's just like the most beloved pet. It's like having a guinea pig in your first grade classroom.

[A]

Same, same.

[B]

We love champagne. Oh, I wrote Champ. Hot take. I find more fascinating than Nessie Crin starting bites. They're possibly cousins, so whatever.

[A]

I do feel like they're very related.

[B]

Totally. Well, actually, I looked up and I might have written this down, but I looked up at one point, I was like, did Lake Champlain and Loch Ness ever share their boundaries? Because, like, the Scottish Highlands and the Adirondacks did. Or sorry, not the Adirondacks, the Appalachian.

[A]

Well, that would make sense then.

[B]

So then I was like, well, the Adirondacks are right there in this lake. And it basically was like, yeah, like, geographically at one point, went back to

[A]

back in Pangaea days.

[B]

But, like, that's so back in the good days for, like, these two creatures to have been related and separated.

[A]

But historic. Okay, certainly not us.

[B]

But today I'm going to talk about the one and only most beloved lake monster, Champ. We're going to talk about the ancient geology of the area, the Native American Legends, the P.T. barnum Bounty, and some mysterious underwater sounds that scientists cannot explain coming from Lake Champlain. I wrote, let's fucking go.

[A]

You know, Karin was stoked, right?

[B]

This episode, I was. I was texting my family the whole time all these fun facts, fun facts. And we were all flabbergasted that we didn't even know some of this stuff. Also, Elena did cover Champ when we did our crossover with Morbid.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. I have no memory. That was so long ago.

[B]

I feel like she probably included way more facts than I did because I found myself kind of rushing towards the end because I was like, God, I could keep going on and on and on and on. I was like, I gotta wrap this

[A]

and I gotta wrap this. Well, to be fair, we also. We had a truncated amount of time when we did our collab with Morbid. So True.

[B]

I don't even remember what I covered. All right, Champ. Named after the lake that it lives in. Lake Champlain, I think you said lamed

[A]

after, and I kind of like it.

[B]

We're gonna keep it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is not just any old lake. Geographically speaking, Lake Champlain is one of the most ancient and unusual lakes in North America. Lake Champlain sits in the Champlain Valley, tucked between the Green Mountains of Vermont to the east and then the Adirondack Mountains of New York to the west. It stretches 107 miles long. Some sources say 125. Because it does technically go up into Canada and into Quebec. So if you count that portion, yes, it's larger. And on average, it's. Yeah, it's like massive. But it's small at the same time because it's like the average is 14 miles wide.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But they're like. If you think about where I got married, like, you could just canoe, take two minutes to boat over to New York side from the Vermont side. Yeah, canoe over.

[A]

But the average is 14 miles. That means you can't even see the other side from one side.

[B]

But you can.

[A]

You'd see 14 miles across.

[B]

Well, yeah, because I guess it's not like an open ocean where the horizon line is seven miles out. Like, you see the mountains?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So, like, you can see the other

[A]

side, but so far.

[B]

And like, from where my family kept our boat in Malletts Bay, it would take an hour to get to the Canadian border. Or like an hour and a half.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then an hour to get to the Naked Turtle.

[A]

Yeah, but what if you got dropped off in the middle and you have to get back safely without a boat? That's.

[B]

There are little tiny islands, so you better hope that you're close to that.

[A]

And then what is the Naked Turtle?

[B]

Okay, actually, this is funny. Cause I, like, very rarely check my Instagram DMs, but the other day I clicked on one and someone was like, oh, listener, big fan, like, from Plattsburgh. And I said, I frequented your Naked Turtle. And she's like, oh, shit. I've gotten fucked up at that Naked Turtle so many times.

[A]

But what is the Naked Turtle?

[B]

It's a burger American restaurant that's in Plattsburgh, New York. You can boat up to.

[A]

Oh, how fun.

[B]

Yeah, so they swim up baring spots for your boat and they have.

[A]

Wait, I love that.

[B]

I don't know if they still have the competition, but, like, there's a massive burger if you can eat it in like, under an hour or something. You get your photo on the wall.

[A]

How big is this burger? Can I look this up?

[B]

Something that I thought when I was a teenager I could never do. And now I look at it and

[A]

I'm like, naked turtle.

[B]

You're giving me an hour. I could do it.

[A]

An hour feels like a long time. It's.

[B]

Or something like that. I can't really remember.

[A]

But 32 ounce burger.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's big.

[B]

It's eight patties. Yeah. But you could get your photo on the wall. Naked turtle is also great because Lake Champlain is, I mean, I guess, in perspective. Like, people aren't gonna worry about that Turtlezilla, what I'm talking about. But like, Lake Winnipesaukee in New York or in New Hampshire is massive. And there are so many businesses that you can boat up to. It's kind of like, built like a boating community. Lake Champlain's not built like a boating community. Like, there are very few restaurants you can actually boat up to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And dock up to. So naked turtle was a treat. But all to say, better for Champ.

[A]

It honestly looks amazing.

[B]

It does look really good.

[A]

If those were veggie patties. Oh, man, I'm so hungry right now. We have five minutes until we can order food. Five minutes until Jersey Mike's is open.

[B]

But yeah, so, like, Lake Champlain definitely is more of a quiet lake. And there's not much. Like, there's a huge amount of coastline that just, like, doesn't have anything. Like, there's no businesses, there's no homes. Like, it is. There's something ripe for a cryptid or just ancient unidentified creature to live in. At the very bottom tip of Lake Champlain is Whitehall, New York, where they do the annual Bigfoot calling competition.

[A]

I kind of feel like I went whale, but, you know, well, could be.

[B]

Who's to say? I mean, whales are deer from the past.

[A]

What?

[B]

That's a fact. I think that actually is a fact.

[A]

Whales are deer from the past.

[B]

Yeah. I think deer evolved, like, at some point.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes. How are whales, deer, AI sizes? No, guys. What are they? What am I thinking?

[A]

I'm like, where did you hear this? You said. It was such confidence that I was gonna say, yeah, okay, I'm here for it.

[B]

Okay. I was close. This is like something you learned so long ago, and you try to, like, repeat it in your mind, but, like, your. Your mind has changed it over time. It says the whale's closest living relative is a hippo, which shares the same distant deer like, ancestor.

[A]

So somewhere along the way, okay, they have their cousin. They're distant cousins.

[B]

Ancient deer, like creatures.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Became whales. Okay. Believe everything else I say this episode. Okay. Because I actually researched everything else, and I'm not just trying to regurgitate it from my mind. And.

[A]

Hey, you fact checked yourself.

[B]

I did, yeah. Well, you made me. I wasn't going to. You told me no. I said yes.

[A]

Sometimes I, I. Sometimes it's good to challenge each other.

[B]

Okay, so back to the lake. Wow. It's like I knew we were gonna tangent right there. I wrote back to the lake. Wow. Spooky. By surface area, Lake champlain is the 13th largest lake in the U.S. its shoreline measures nearly 600 miles. And let me remind you again that 600 miles is, like, pretty relatively untouched. It's not super busy. There's a few lake houses, a few restaurants by the water, but mostly, like, a lot of cliffs and just, like, open shoreline. The maximum depth of the lake is 400ft, but some surveys suggest that the bedrock depth, including sediment, can push closer to 700ft deep in certain spots. Okay, so that's pretty damn deep. Like, you're not going to see something that's living at the bottom. It's also cavernous, it's murky, it's very hard to explore, and there are a shit ton of hiding spots.

[A]

Well, even what's like the depth, that's like, for just like normal scuba diving equipment. Like, isn't it only like 30 to 60ft or something like that? Oh, because wasn't it with the, like the cave divers who.

[B]

Yeah, they were cleared to go 130ft and then they went 180 or 100, but I don't know what, like the basic certificate.

[A]

But even still, that professional, that's a fraction of 400. Meaning that, like, in order to go 400ft to go to the bottom of

[B]

Lake Champlain, well, you can't see anything anyway.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even, like, people do, do scuba diving certification and stuff in Lake Champlain. It's like, what are you seeing?

[A]

Murky. Mud.

[B]

Murky? Yeah. Like literally nothing. Okay. And we're gonna go more into, like, some geographical history. And if you're like, why do I need to know the history of the lake? Corinne, we're going to set it up for some dinosaur arguments.

[A]

We also love history. It's important. Context.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, but yeah, we need the context to understand. Kind of like, if this is not a cryptid and this is an actual animal that has evolved over time, how could it be here? Okay, so the oldest rocks visible and also related to deer so the deer went into the water one day and decided, I want to be a mermaid. They played mermaids and they stayed there forever.

[A]

They made a deal with Triton.

[B]

They did the George Washington hair. And they were like, this is way too much fun. We're never going to.

[A]

I'm staying here.

[B]

The oldest rocks visible on Lake Champlain shores are over a billion years old on the New York side and then over 500 million years old on the Vermont side. It was formed when the region was actually a shallow tropical sea. Tropical, yes. And today there is a fossilized coral reef. This is the fact that I texted my family and we were all like, what? There's a fossilized coral reef in Vermont that dates back to this time, which is the oldest known diverse fossil reef in the world. And it's just sitting in this lake in Vermont.

[A]

That is so cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are there photos of it?

[B]

Yeah, if you're watching on YouTube, there are. I. I will say don't run to YouTube if you're not to be dazzled by this because it's just basically like. You can see there's like some rocks that are jutting out.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

Like fossil evidence.

[A]

Wow. Of that is a fun fact to take home to your.

[B]

Let friends sink in. Yeah.

[A]

This is.

[B]

Again, this is one of those episodes where I was excited to write it. So I'm like, what I even write here because I'm just monolizing. I said, let that sink in. The oldest evidence of a coral reef on a planet in Vermont in a lake where I tried my very first Mike's Hard Lemonade. Of course, an unknown creature here.

[A]

Yeah. And it's getting drunk off this build. Mike's Hard Lemonade.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Half of Mike's Hard. The lake basin itself was formed 200 million years ago when the stretching of the continental plates caused a massive piece of bedrock to drop between the two parallel faults right there. Then came the ice age. And then 3 million years ago, glaciers began advancing and retreating across North America. And at their peak, Champlain Valley was actually buried under a sheet of ice more than a mile thick. So from tropical coral reef sea to just the frickin ice age. Mild, thick, long ice. And then when the planet started warming up again 15,000 years ago, the ice began to melt. Water pools created a massive lake called Lake Vermont, which was super high in elevation. If anyone is from Vermont, the super high in elevation is like. Like Mount Phila was underwater for a reference, which is not a very tall

[A]

mountain and also not a good reference because I don't understand.

[B]

But if you're looking for the plain area, if you're bopping around Charlotte, that's

[A]

an insider knowledge for you.

[B]

Mount Philo is a mountain that's like a 10 minute drive from Cookie Love.

[A]

Okay, Cookie Love. Now I know where I am.

[B]

Yeah, which you stopped at because I told everyone to stop at Cookie love. Okay, then 13,000 years ago, the glacier retreated far enough north that the earth's crust, which had been depressed by the immense weight of that like mile long, thick piece of ice, allowed marine waters from the Atlantic Ocean to flow up through the St. Lawrence Valley. And then the Champlain Valley became an inland sea, a saltwater sea called the Champlain Sea. So basically now we're getting ocean waters.

[A]

So, okay, could have been connection to the Atlantic, to Loch Ness, to.

[B]

Totally cousins, right? The cousins are coming. You read my mind. Next sentence. So already I'm like, Nessie and Champ could have swam in the same sea.

[A]

And then they got in a massive fight, parted ways, and they each picked maybe they were married, they got divorced, and they're like, you stay over there in the Americas. Yeah, and I got Scotland and I keep my kids over here. You keep yours there?

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was just thinking. I was like, man, were there like other mates just waiting somewhere and like, how are they reproducing?

[A]

Or are they like their families? Don't worms. Can't they like, recreate? There's like certain animals that literally, like.

[B]

Yeah, certain frogs too, reproduced by themselves. I had a pet frog that reproduced another frog. Surprise, surprise. I used to put my, my Walkman headphones and over the tank and like, let my frogs listen to.

[A]

What do you let them listen to?

[B]

Like Cyndi Lauper, Christina Aguilar.

[A]

Very sweet of you.

[B]

Yes, things like that.

[A]

Good, good mixing.

[B]

Keep them up to date with what NSYNC is doing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, basically there's ocean water, salt water here now. And if you're curious about what actual, like, sea animals lived in the Champlain Sea, the Vermont Sea, there were Atlantic cod seals, blue mussels, and beluga whales. And actually in 1849, a beluga whale skeleton was found in Charlotte, which is where Mount Philo is, and another five minutes down the road where Cookie Love is.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So there's like actual sea creatures that are, have flooded and are making their way in here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now, 10,000 years ago, the seawater drains back out via the St. Lawrence. Fresh water from the rivers and from the rain start coming in, filling the basin. And now the Champlain Sea gradually becomes Lake Champlain. So how is this relating to Champ well, some cryptozoologists believe that there was some sort of marine creature that got trapped here and basically evolved as the water was changing to be able to live in fresh water. Which makes total sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Plus when you think about how Lake Champlain's researchers have documented a system of underwater caves and it's like it is totally plausible that anytime there's caves 10,000 plus years there has been something relatively undetected. And I say relatively because there are plenty of reports of people seeing this thing.

[A]

Yeah, you have heard us talk about Rocket Money before. It has saved my butt because I didn't realize I was accidentally paying for the same subscription twice. Thank goodness Rocket Money caught it for me and helped me cancel the unwanted subscription. The Rocket Money app consolidates checking, savings, loans and investments into a single dashboard, giving users a clear view of their financial picture. I love how you can set budgets on Rocket Money. Their dashboard is so clear and easy to understand. You can get personalized insights sites and I also have real time alerts set up for large transactions and upcoming bills. And I get a weekly email letting me know how I'm doing in terms of my budgets and where I'm saving. You can also customize categories and have tags to reveal your spending patterns. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] TGOG that's RocketMoney.com TGOG RocketMoney.com TGOG it's summer. I want to make sure my makeup routine is simple. It's quick, it's light. And that is why I amplify my look with clean beauty from Thrive Cosmetics. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin, not against it. And you've heard Corinne and I talk about Thrive Cosmetics before. We love their tubing mascara but they also have the Brilliant eye brightener which is waterproof eyeshadow highlighter stick made to brighten and open your eyes and it gives you that radiant eye look for any occasion. You can apply to the inner corner of your eyes to look rested and effortless and it comes in 32 shades. I use it on my lids and I have like a variety of shades that I use but then I also use it as highlighter. It applies so easily. I Always get compliments. And it gives you a little, like, sparkle. So amplify your spring look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com TGOG for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S e m e t-I c s.com TGOG okay.

[B]

So before the Europeans showed up, the Abenaki and the Mohawk indigenous nations shared Lake Champlain. They had stories of enormous horned serpents in the water. And for hundreds of years these stories were told then.

[A]

Horned serpents. Interesting.

[B]

Horned. Yeah. Sometimes he has horns.

[A]

It's like deer.

[B]

Because they're all deer. Everyone is deer. We're all deer.

[A]

No deer.

[B]

Okay. Very brief history here. So they have these oral stories that are told of these. Of a lake monster that lives here. And then Samuel Day Champlain, the French cartographer and explorer, which is how Lake Champlain got the name Champlain. He entered Lake Champlain in 1609. And the popular legend says that Champlain was the very first European to see Champ the lake monster. And for a long time he was credited with writing about this 20 foot long serpent. Thick as a barrel with the head of a horse. But historians believe that he actually didn't see it. He was just reporting what the local indigenous nations had told him. Yes. The first fully modern style sighting that was documented came on July 22, 1819, near Port Henry, New York, at a bay called Bulwaga Bay. A man named Captain Crumb reported seeing a creature that he described as a black serpent. He said it was 187ft long with the head of a seahorse. Three teeth.

[A]

Three.

[B]

Oh, three.

[A]

And why does that make him so cute?

[B]

I know. And it described his eyes as like the color of a peeled onion, which is so weird. He said he had a white star on his forehead and a belt of red around his neck. Oh, a little collar. A little collar. I'm gonna say. I don't really believe Crumb. I'm not sure a Lake that is 400ft deep, slash 700ft deep is going to support a 200 foot long creature.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

It just doesn't move. It's like a little betta fish that you just keep in a tiny tank.

[A]

Well, 200ft long. So. But it's not going up and down in the river or in the lake. It's floating along. This thing is like a hundred miles.

[B]

Yeah. The lake is like. Yeah. I don't know. It's like you would see it more.

[A]

Maybe it's a bottom dweller Just like a little worm. Yeah.

[B]

Going by.

[A]

Yeah, not a little worm, but a big worm.

[B]

A big. A big worm.

[A]

And also, maybe he wasn't. Maybe Crumb is not great at measurements. Maybe math wasn't his expertise.

[B]

Yeah. Or evolution, like deer and whales relating to each other. You know, I can't judge Crumb, but

[A]

I love the 3T.

[B]

Other people did. So, of course, people weren't really sure if this was an exaggeration or not,

[A]

but Crumb had scurvy.

[B]

Crumb really needed an orange so bad. Regardless of whether Crumb's description was accurate or not, he was a very respected figure. And this account gave more credence to the existence of there being some sort of unidentified creature existing in the lake.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then some 50 years later, in 1873, there was some more Champ action. And kind of a lot. There was a lot going on in this July.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

First, a crew laying. I literally said that. Later, I was like, july and August. Like, most of the sightings are July and August.

[A]

But also, maybe he hibernates. He likes the summer as well.

[B]

True.

[A]

Or she.

[B]

But, like, that's also when we're on the lake in Vermont.

[A]

Maybe he likes cold.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise there's like, not as many people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nearly as many people on the. On the coastline. So I don't know why, But July snacks for more toes to taste. So there's a crew laying railroad tracks for the New York and Canada Railroad near Dresden, New York. And they look out at the lake and they see this enormous serpent with a massive head approaching from across the water. The head was described as having sort of like a bright, silvery, glistening scale situation happening.

[A]

Okay. Rainbow fish go off.

[B]

Right. Share your scales. Rainbow fish. Multiple witnesses corroborated the account, and some local farmers even reported missing livestock at the same time. Though the reports of the missing livestock were not connected with Champ or blamed on Champ at the time. But now historians are looking back, being like, could it have been some sort of. But there's no other reports of, like, today. There's no, like, oh, Champ feeds on the cows at the water's edge. So are there a lot of cows

[A]

at the water's edge of Lake Champlain?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Okay. Because the farmers know they moved them inland.

[B]

So I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Also In July of 1873, Clinton County Sheriff Nathan H. Mooney reported seeing a water serpent from the shoreline that he estimated to be 25 to 30ft in length. So again with Captain Crumbs account of saying it's like 180 some feet long.

[A]

Maybe he added an extra zero or something.

[B]

Maybe he saw a whole family and they were like next to each other, like following dolphins.

[A]

And it looked like it was all one, like a little.

[B]

All the babies were behind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he thought it was one massive one, but it was just mama and

[A]

her, like just a bunch of them.

[B]

10 kids. He said he was close enough to see the round white spots that were inside of its mouth, its three teeth. And then in August of that same year, the steamship WB Eddy actually made contact with something in the water. According to the passengers aboard the ship, the ship struck something, nearly capsized. And they were like, holy crap, what did we hit? Like something super sizable. And people looking overboard reported that a creature surfaced alongside the vessel and then went back down and disappeared. So it's like they.

[A]

Which I imagine if you're like on a boat, you're. That's like terrifying and ominous and totally. It's like Jaws. Is it going to try to, like, knock? Yeah.

[B]

Is it going to get you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so all this is in the same summer. So July and August. And word of these three sightings spread really fast. And that is when P.T. barnum, founder of the Barnum Brothers, or whatever that circus is, he offered.

[A]

Very problematic.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of issues.

[A]

A lot of circuses have problematic history.

[B]

We're not huge circus history lovers. But he offered a bounty of $50,000 for the hide of what he called the great Champlain Serpent to add his world's famous fair show.

[A]

Problematic. Yeah.

[B]

And in today's money, that would be like over a million dollars.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

For someone to kill this thing and bring it.

[A]

Why not keep him alive?

[B]

So nobody caught Champ and brought him to Barnum. And he was. He was like, pissed.

[A]

He was like, okay, Barnum, you go do it yourself.

[B]

This monster, he suggested that people just go out in their boats with guns and just start shooting blindly in the water. He's like, something will surface. It'll come up. Then I don't know if anyone did that. But still, there was no Champ to present. So Fast forward to 1945, when passengers aboard the steamship SS Ticonderoga reported a group. Love those pencils. They have the best number toes. But they all reported seeing a giant creature traveling alongside this vessel.

[A]

Everyone. So it's like multiple people are seeing it. Yeah.

[B]

It's not just like a small amount of crew that's aboard, like a small ship or whatever. Like, these are. These are like passenger ships.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

A large group of People are seeing things. And sightings continue to roll up all the way to today, where champ has over 300 documented sightings. That's documented. And by 1992, documented sightings had reached 180. Which means that in the past like 30 years there have been a shit ton more documented sightings.

[A]

So does that mean there's like video evidence or like visual evidence of some kind? Or someone has gone to a newspaper and that's been put in?

[B]

Most people, there's very little like actual.

[A]

So your account counts as a document?

[B]

Well, no, I did, but I didn't officially document it.

[A]

But it in our podcast, I think

[B]

in relation to these documented sightings, it's like an official documented record, like at

[A]

our podcast is pretty official.

[B]

Well, so really it should be over 300, because if you take into consideration all the people who just talk about it in their own lives in public forums, but it's not officially documented somewhere.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

I guess I'll tell my experience. It's so quick.

[A]

It was the best.

[B]

I was in high school, so I can't really remember what year it was. But sometime in high school my. So my family had a boat. We kept it in Malletts Bay and we would often go to Thayer beach, if anyone knows. So it's like the main Lake Champlain. We weren't in the deep part. There's like a little, a little bay you like cross through. There's like a big bike path that you can bike across or whatever. And so you would think safer wall that. Yeah, we're in the shallows basically. So Thayer beach was like great. We would go tubing over there. We'd just like float. It was an awesome spot. This one particular summer we're tubing. My brother is the spotter on the boat. My mom is driving. My mom almost never, ever, ever drives the boat she's driving. And my dad and I are on the tube and it's one of those boomerang style tubes. So it's like we're both kind of facing forward but like facing away. And then there's one extra spot in the middle for someone, a third person that wasn't with us.

[A]

For Champ, for.

[B]

For Champ. And we're going. And my mom is like driving us along parallel to there and next to us. So we were maybe in like 30 or 40 foot of depth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Next to us maybe the size of like a dinner plate or like a salad plate. Like I'd say like 8 to 10 inches. There's like a blackish colored body that comes up and we don't see the front of it and we don't see the back of it, but we can see, like, two or three of its humps. And it's riding the wake on my side of the tube. So it's riding along with us. And my dad is. So it takes a lot to scare him. He kind of, like, laughs off everything.

[A]

He's very laissez faire.

[B]

Yeah. Things can be very dangerous and him not consider it to be a dangerous situation. And he looked at me with total fear in his eyes and said, do not let go. And this thing is riding alongside of us for, like, probably a good 30 to 60 seconds. It's hard to know how long. Cause we were terrified. And at first we were screaming bloody murder for my mom to stop the boat and reel us in, but she can't hear us. Or she, like, keeps looking back and thinks that we're having fun. Christians being the world's worst spotter, not listening to any hand signals that we're throwing up.

[A]

Just Christians working with champions.

[B]

Christian is sabotaging us. He hired Champ to eat his family that day anyway. But, like, they're not listening. And that was when my dad was like, whatever you do, don't let go. And we just rode in, like, sheer silence and terror, basically, until they reeled us back in because it disappeared. But, like, my mom didn't stop the boat.

[A]

And, Christian, you're aware that that's still there somewhere.

[B]

Yeah. We can't just, like, be like, oh, my God, and then drop off so that they stop and get us. Like, we're trying to keep our legs out of the water. We're trying to, like, hover and, like, crouch ourselves up on this tube. So that's my. That's my champ sighting. Because I don't know.

[A]

Do you think it was, like, a baby champ? Because I feel like that. That's pretty skinny.

[B]

It is pretty skinny. Are there massive, which is a lot calmer. So maybe that's where they.

[A]

That's where they reproduce.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's, like, more gentle and delicate. Maybe that's why it's on the esplanade in Boston. When the swans. When the baby swan tatch each spray, they go on the edge, like, in the kayaking path. And then. And they practice going on like their mom or dad's back in the water. Big Charles River.

[A]

Curious. Like, you know how turtles, like, they go and lay their eggs. And then, like, at a certain point of the year, they all hatch and they go back towards the water. Is baby Season for Champ in the summer. And that's why they're more prevalent.

[B]

Oh, that is interesting. And so when people are seeing the 20 or 30 foot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Once they're actually juvenile baby ones we don't even know. And I feel like the Malice Bay would be a great breeding ground too, because it's, like, calmer. There's a bunch of little spots for, like, caves and, like, cliff jumping and stuff. So it's like there's a lot of little protected areas.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And there's a couple entrances back to the main lake. Like, there's the one part where, like, we would go out to the main lake, but then there's another on the other side. You can go through another, like, bridge in shallow water and you're in a more protected space again, but still connected to the big. You know what? This. We might be onto something here.

[A]

We've hacked the code.

[B]

We need to do more investigations on Man's Bay.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

So that's my sighting. I don't know what it was, but terrifying.

[A]

Even though you love Terry, it was scary in the moment.

[B]

It's one thing to sea Champ from, like, the safety of a boat. It's another thing to have a foot and a half away from you, some serpent like creature where you're seeing two or three humps riding the wake next to, and you have no clue what it is. Like, is it Champ? Is it a giant anaconda that someone just, like, let their pet loose? Like, at least I don't know. And also, we're tubing, so we're going like 15.

[A]

So it's going fast.

[B]

20 miles per hour.

[A]

You survived.

[B]

It's going fast. I survived Champ. Okay, so now we've established that some people have seen Champ. There's quite a few people. So while the accounts were like, there's 300 documented accounts, there's individually over 600 witnesses documented. So probably way more than that because I also know of more stories that aren't documented just from, like, people living in the area. Okay, so we've established a lot of people have seen something on Lake Champlain for a very long time. But the most compelling evidence comes from modern day. So I'm gonna walk through three pieces of evidence that people are using now today to advocate to back up the claims. Yes.

[A]

To be like, Champ is real.

[B]

Okay, so the. There's the Mansi photography that we Talked about from 1977, where on July 5, Sandra Mancy, she sees something emerge from the water. When she's there with her Boyfriend and her two kids. Takes a photograph on her Kodak Instamatic, Gets the photo developed. Doesn't talk about it for three years until she finally mentions it to friends. And word then reaches Lake Champlain researcher Joseph Kurzynski, who wrote a book on Champ. Okay. He sent that photo to University of Arizona. That's how it to get. Went from her drawer to being analyzed at the University of Arizona.

[A]

A photo of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. That's like the famous one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For some reason, I've always thought that was a fake photo. But, like, to know that this is a real photo is wild.

[B]

Yeah. This is like the real photo. There's a lot of others that are fake or like, I feel like sometimes when you look up Champ, you get a lot of the Nessie photos too.

[A]

Or like a recreation or like a cartoony version of this.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. So it gets sent over to University of Arizona for analysis. They digitize it. They run computer enhancement techniques on it. Look for any evidence of, like, ropes or pulleys or some sort of trickery. Cause they know the photo itself hasn't been doctored. So now they're trying to look at, like, how was it. How is it being manipulated? Yeah, Being created. But there was nothing to indicate that this was a hoax. So a legitimate photo, a legitimate object. Whatever it was, it was there at that distance away, captured on photograph that day the photo was published, and it caused a media sensation. It was printed in publications like the New York Times and Life magazine. Sandra actually passed away in 2018. But before she passed, she and her family gifted the original photograph developed photograph to the echolahy center for Lake Champlain in Burlington.

[A]

So it's on display?

[B]

I think so. I mean, last time I was in, a few times ago that I was in Echo, there was. I don't know if it's like a exhibit that they always have or if it's just sometimes, but they have an exhibit on Champ, as they should. Yeah. And Echo is also. It's like an aquarium science center that's right on the water in downtown Burlington.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Can't recommend it for the aquarium piece if you're looking for pretty fish, because it's like local Lake Champlain stuff. Everything is brown.

[A]

The one aquarium that truly blew my socks off was in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Meredith and I went and we left being like, why was that the best aquarium we've ever been to?

[B]

I really want to go to the Atlanta one, because I haven't been to that one reel.

[A]

I've heard. Heard good things.

[B]

Yeah. Heard good things. Well, I had prom at Echo.

[A]

So, so fun.

[B]

Again, close to Champ fan. And they have a little statue of Champ that, like a sculpture of Champ outside that you can grab your little maple black raspberry twist creamy.

[A]

And have ice cream next to Champ.

[B]

And have ice cream next to Champ. Okay, so the original photograph is in possession or like is possessed by Echo.

[A]

It's possessed.

[B]

But the problem is that the original developed photograph was given, but they had lost her, she had lost the negative. So there's only so much manipulation that they can do to try to study the photograph.

[A]

Now they have to preserve it.

[B]

Original negative from the film. Evidence number two, the Alfreder and Beaudet video is the summer of 2005. Pon de Replay by Rihanna is all over the airwaves. Of course, the air is thick with humidity. The Creamy stands are selling and slinging their thickest cones. And this is when two fishermen, Dick Alforder. I'm butchering pronunciations. I'm sorry. And his stepson, Pete Beaudet, they're out on Lake Champlain when they see something appear near their boat and by the surface. So they grab their digital camera and they're filming it. But remember, this is 2005. So cameras are not great. It's grainy, sure. But they submit the footage. And now, like, if you go on YouTube or something, like, you can watch the news reports, like local news reports on this and you can literally hear Dick saying in the background, boy, that looks like a serpent. So I have a clip of it. Or like it's like I have like the three moments from that video where you can see something that like looks to be further out in the distance. That's kind of like making the water do some weird wavy things. And then you see very quickly some sort of thing like underneath their boat, like, come out. It's almost like its head. Oh, okay. Ready? So you can see. Oh, it's almost like humps coming out.

[A]

And it does look really long.

[B]

And then this one's hard to see, but you see that it looks like

[A]

a massive snake, which honestly kind of makes me hate Champ. Like, snakes are scary. And a massive sea snake, that's what's freak.

[B]

Yeah, look at that. If it is a snake, it's absolutely terrifying. I would rather it be a cryptid. A cryptid. I would rather be a 200 foot long dinosaur than a snake in the water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it is very creepy. But I also kind of don't think it's a snake because the way that it holds its Head up out of the water.

[A]

I don't know much about snakes and I don't plan to. Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, so that's another piece of video evidence. And Dick literally says, that looks like a serpent. And now two retired FBI forensic image analysts independently reviewed that tape. That footage.

[A]

I love that. That's like their hobby. Yeah, they're like, let's figure out, champ.

[B]

Like, catch the bad guys, identify the cryptids, find cryptids. They both separately said that what appeared to be captured by these two men on that day appeared to be authentic and unmanipulated. So some people are like, is it an eel? Is it a fish? Is it a log? It's not a log. Definitely doesn't look like a log.

[A]

I know. I feel like that's like the biggest skeptic. It's just a log.

[B]

It's a log.

[A]

I'm like, okay, tree log this.

[B]

And also like, if it's a log, then you can just boat. Like it doesn't disappear underwater for a long time. You just go back up to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The last piece of modern evidence is very weird. It reminds me of the blip from the deep. See that? People reference that. Like, people don't know what it is. This is echolocation recordings from Lake Champlain. Most of them are from 2003, but there are some modern day recordings as well. I'm not going to play the audio because it is a nightmare to your ears if you are listening with headphones on or in the car. Like it's just going to be super annoying.

[A]

Like in Harry Potter when they open the egg and it screams kind of.

[B]

It's just like very staticky and then you can hear like the whatever. Like. Yeah, but it's audio data, scientific data that was published in a peer reviewed journal. Like, this is officially like, this is science book. This is science. Like, we don't know what this is, but this has been captured.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in 2003, the Fauna Communications Research Institute was conducting research for Discovery Channel. Discovery Channel had a program on Lake Champlain and they deployed hydrophones, which are underwater microphones in three different locations around the lake. And that is when they found high pitched ticking and chirping that sounded almost like a dolphin or beluga whale which once lived in Lake Champlain 10,000 years ago. But it was not the wave pattern found of just regular like a log or floating debris or something that would just have more of like a rhythmic.

[A]

It felt like communication.

[B]

It said it was biological echolocation. It was animal communication found in a small group of Mammals. So basically it was like, then it has to be somehow related to mammals. Now I'm like, is it a beluga whale that's evolved over time?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know. No beluga whales that we've seen so far. So something that stays deep in the water most of the time. Wow.

[A]

But also, communication indicates many. Like, that's not just one. Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You don't just scream into the ether.

[A]

Oh, sometimes you do. I did that in a car on the way here. Yeah. Silently, but I did it.

[B]

But again, like, it brings me back to, like, the cave systems. I'm like, there could be so many things living down here.

[A]

Also. Do any of those caves connect to the ocean?

[B]

I don't know, but Lake Champlain technically does, because you can. Yeah, you can go up through Montreal, Quebec, and go all the way around through Canada and then pop out the Atlantic that way. Like, you can actually boat it. Obviously it would take a really long time and there's a lot of narrow channels, but you could do it. Technically, you can do that. And I know that that's been an issue because there's been some problems with barnacles coming into Lake Champlain.

[A]

Barnacles. Get out of here.

[B]

Barnacles. Canadians, take your barnacles off your boat before you enter the lake.

[A]

I don't know about you, but this most recent Mercury retrograde hit me hard. And I was so grateful that I had therapy because, my gosh, did I need to talk through some things. And I also know there are so many people who are looking for therapy but feel bogged down or overwhelmed by the fact that they can't find a therapist that takes their insurance or it just feels expensive or overwhelming. But that is why we love Rula. Rula does things differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. And what I really love, too, is that it supports every aspect of your mental health journey. So from therapy to medication management, which is important for me because I am on medication, they have a diverse network of licensed, experienced professionals. And RULEST therapists and psychiatrist make it easy for you to get the care you need. You can also find the right therapist for you with RULA based on your needs, your preferences, and state requirements. Thousands of people are already using RULA to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com TGOG to get started. That's R U L A.com TGOG because you deserve mental healthcare that works with you and not against your budget. Are you out on the water or running this summer and you're like I need sunglasses that move with me and don't just fall off my face. Well my goodness, do we have sunglasses for you. Gooder Goodr sunglasses move with you making them the perfect sunny day companion. Also you get a lot of compliments on them. If you wear gooder sunglasses you can look stylish without trying too hard. It truly pulls an outfit together instantly. And they have so many options to choose from. From casual to elevated looks to running sunglasses to just really fun fashionable ones like timeless tortoiseshell to really fun colors and frames. I just got a pair called Dancing through Dimensions and they're this like really hot pink. They're so cute. They're so fun. And truly I think that's why everyone loves them is because they're stylish, affordable, versatile, good quality and fun sunglasses. So if you're ready to upgrade your eyewear to something functional, fashionable, fun and affordable, head to goodr.com TGOG to claim $10 off your first order. That's G O-O-R.com TGOG now I'm going

[B]

to talk about dinosaurs.

[A]

Good as natural segue.

[B]

Natural segue. That's why in the beginning I was talking us through all the history of how like the lake formed and stuff. So the popular theory is that Champ is a plesiosaur or a descendant of one. So a plesiosaur. They're very large marine reptiles that lived in the Triassic period, through the end of the Cretacetious period. They went extinct approximately 66 million years ago in the cave.

[A]

Or so we thought.

[B]

Yeah, or so that's the thing. It's like there's so many. Or so we thoughts people are still discovering species today. People are discovering especially in bodies of water animals that are. Yeah like that they thought were extinct 500 years ago that are still here. Like we just don't know. Okay. But basically the asteroid that came down killed all the like non avian creatures or whatever it was thought to be there. So plesiosaurs, they have long necks, small heads, wide bodies, they have four paddle like limbs. And the description basically matches somewhat descriptions of Champ. Although I would say the problem is the body.

[A]

I would say I feel like the four limbs is not commonly reported.

[B]

No, like a giant body with four limbs. Like it is more of a serpenty but that's like who's to say that

[A]

that is how much? 66 million years ago.

[B]

63 million years of time couldn't change someone's body shape. Yeah. So this is the dinosaur that people most commonly refer to Tantia stuffus. Also a possible explanation. This one is. I feel like what you kind of think of more when you think of like Jurassic park where it has a giant long neck coming out of the water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a bit more reptile, like. And then some people wonder if it's the Basilosaurus, which is a primitive whale species from about 40 million years ago. Like it doesn't the whale species. Like it does kind of look like a long tube.

[A]

Yeah. I mean could it not be like evolution plus like breeding of some kind?

[B]

Like it just on the echolocation could make sense for.

[A]

Yeah. These types of dinosaurs.

[B]

Yeah. And for like the whale. I will also say in my experience in seeing what I saw, that was Champ and other people's reports. One important thing to note is the way that it moves. It's not moving side to side like a shark or some reptile. It's more mammal, like where it's up and down.

[A]

It's very snakey.

[B]

No, it's not. It's not like a snake. Snakes go side to side.

[A]

It's more like dolphin.

[B]

Dolphin or a whale. Like a mammal. Which echolocation. That part makes sense. So I think it's definitely a real creature and it's some sort of mammal.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Not to say cryptid's not a real creature, but like it's, it's evolved from a creature that we probably know about.

[A]

Don't we call it a cryptid Just because we don't know enough about it

[B]

and we think because of magical properties. But I don't think there's magical. Are there magical properties to a lot of cryptids? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, with this, with Champ.

[B]

No. That's why I'm saying I don't think Champ is like it shouldn't really be a cryptid because like what's the magic other than sometimes people don't see it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And don't actually know exactly what it is. I don't know.

[A]

It's mysterious.

[B]

Yeah. So some people think that it's a case of misidentification which I'm going to go through. Some of the animals that people blame Champ sightings on.

[A]

Isn't one of the biggest ones like the sturgeon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fish.

[B]

And I have included actual photos of fishermen holding record sized animals or like a fish from Lake Champlain to prove to you that this is not the. Not Lake Sturgeons can weigh up to 310 pounds, measure over six feet. Some live 150 years. And if you're watching on YouTube, I'm about to show you a picture of a fisherman with one of the largest ones. Some people blame Garfish. Here's a record. Garfish caught in Lake Champlain.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Nope. Again, impossible. The size does not nearly fit. Like that is bait, y'.

[A]

All. Size matters when it comes to champs.

[B]

It does. It does. So, plenty of theories. Some people say a log. Some people say it's a wake from a boat. And for many who just don't have a name for what they saw, we default to Champ. The lake monster from Lake Champlain, Vermont's minor league baseball team is the Lake Monsters. Love it. With Champ as the mascot.

[A]

The best.

[B]

The waters were officially declared a safe haven for Champ.

[A]

Wait, isn't it, like, a plaque?

[B]

I don't know, but it's protected by law.

[A]

I love that so much.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, if Champ exists, like, you're

[A]

not allowed to hurt him.

[B]

You're not allowed to hurt him. He's protected by law.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

And echo, the Science and Nature Museum Aquarium has exhibits on Champ. I don't know if they're always there on and off for years. But all to say, the locals have fully accepted Champ as one of our residents and believe that he does or it does live in our waters. So now it's time for you to believe, too.

[A]

I believe it's something scary and snake like, but maybe evolved over time.

[B]

It just feels like it has to be some sort of evolved animal.

[A]

Yeah. Enough people have seen it and had experiences with things like it that can't be explained. That I believe.

[B]

And most of the sightings are in, like, the deeper big part of the lake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's a lot of little islands throughout there. And.

[A]

And now, as we've discovered and hypothesized this episode, it's mating season. Birthing season in July and August.

[B]

Look for the baby champs.

[A]

Look for all the little babies might

[B]

try to ride your wake.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I remember my dad telling me a story that he heard from. I can't remember if it was like, a co worker or client or someone who was like some. A type of person who would never want to admit they saw something weird. But I said that they were on a walk one morning, and it was kind of like misty out on the lake. Perfect. And they walk down to the dock, and as they're, like, on the dock, they see it rises out of the water. With its head and then goes back down just like a split second.

[A]

Damn. You know, I feel like when I think of you, I think of you think of Champ. I think of Vermont first and then I think of Champ. Like I feel like that's a part

[B]

of who I am as part of my lore.

[A]

Yeah. Like if there was a book about you, it would start with like you're about. The author would have strong believer in Champ from Vermont has seen Champ believer. Yeah.

[B]

Creamy lover. Champ survivor.

[A]

I know that the name is what it's called, but when you were describing thick creamy, I really hated it.

[B]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

It sounded so icky.

[B]

Creamy, if anyone doesn't know is Vermont's version of soft serve has a higher

[A]

flavor, which you had at your wedding.

[B]

I did have creamies at my wedding.

[A]

It's called.

[B]

It's spelled C R E E M E E. They you can get vanilla or chocolate, but usually maple is the way to go.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Or my order, maple black raspberry twist with chocolate sprinkles. Yeah.

[A]

I'm so happy.

[B]

And if you were at my wedding, then you put the maple creamy into the maple old fashioned. And that was.

[A]

I tried that. I didn't. I didn't order that, but I tried someone else's. Cuz I was like, I don't think I could have that whole thing.

[B]

That was good, but it was delicious.

[A]

Okay, this is wild. So you told me a crazy fact that we debunked a bit about whales being connected to deer. Yeah. And I had no idea about that. But I picked a story around Lake Champlain.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

About a knot deer.

[B]

Oh, look at this. The ancestor of the beluga whales who evolved into Champ on Lake Champlain.

[A]

All comes full circle. Okay. Hi, girlies. My name is TJ And I've been listening to you for about a year now. Mostly binging while I'm doing charting at work. As I'm writing this, I just started episode 264 and I'm freaking out because I am from upstate New York. I live right between Whitehall and Saratoga Springs. It is a deeply haunted area, I believe because of all the battles fought up here on the way through to Saratoga. In general, we have a lot of high strangeness here and throughout the Adirondacks. Yeah.

[B]

And Bigfoot.

[A]

I also loved the tours of Fort Ticonderoga. Allegedly, you can sometimes see champions while touring that fort.

[B]

Oh, really? Interesting, interesting. So Champ's just kind of like hanging out at the bottom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bottom tip of the lake.

[A]

Champ's also going on history Tours?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so I grew up in New York and spent a lot of time outdoors. Hunting, fishing, mountain biking, hiking. All to say, I've seen a lot of weird stuff and handled a lot of animals in the 30 years I've been alive. But whatever I saw this night, nothing I'd ever seen before. Right after college, I started working at a local treatment center on second shift, so meaning 4pm to 12am I drove home every night in the dark and it didn't bother me much. I drove through town, so only the last 10 minutes of my 20 minute drive were in the rural area that had no street light during this time. It was Peak Covid August 2020 when this story took place. So really there was no one else on the road. I was driving home one night. It was a regular shift for me, nothing exciting. I just turned onto the last three mile stretch before I reached my house when I noticed a deer on the side of the road. Its back was to me, so I was looking at its butt. Its head was down, presumably eating and I've seen deer my entire life. I've hunted with my grandpa as a teenager and it's not uncommon for them to be this close to town. I kept an eye out for other deer, as usually if there's one, there's others. But as I got closer to this deer, it turned to look at me and what I saw made me sick. Its jaw was completely crooked. It looked like someone had smashed into it and broken its jaw and it healed sideways. Oh, it hung open, seemingly unable to close due to the angle.

[B]

Oh my God. If this is an actual deer injury, I feel so horrible for this thing.

[A]

Well, my first thought was actually chronic wasting disease and not anything supernatural. We didn't have any cases of it though at the time and neither did Vermont. But just because they hadn't seen any of the deer with CWD doesn't mean that they didn't exist. And at this point, I didn't even know what a knot deer was. So I slowed down to try to get a better look at it and also to give it time to move away from the side of the road. I came to a complete stop about 4 yards from it and I turned my hazards on. I have a habit of collecting critters, mostly possums and a few birds and once a big snapping turtle. So I grabbed my phone to call our local wildlife control office and report the injured animal. When I notice out of the corner of my eye that this deer is rearing up. I assumed that it was about to Try to jump. Only it stopped moving. And I looked up fully from my phone and the deer was now standing up like a person. The front legs were straight by its side and its back legs were perfectly

[B]

straight, which, like that is impossible. And its head, it's one thing if it like goes up for a second.

[A]

No, it.

[B]

It can't just. Deer's. Deer can't just stand like that.

[A]

They don't stand like humans. Its head was now turned, looking directly at me. And I had this feeling that it was human, intelligent, like it was waiting for me. I sat frozen, staring at its face, at its crooked, broken looking jaw, not knowing what was going on. And I'm not kidding when I say it stepped towards my car, purposeful, like a person, never breaking eye contact with me. I started screaming immediately. I threw my shitty 2008 Hyundai Sonata into drive and floored it. I crossed into the other lane to be as far away from that thing as possible. I practically blew through the stop sign at the end of the road, doing 50 and a 30 until I got to my driveway. I ran inside, still screaming. My mom was still awake, sitting at the kitchen table. And I basically screamed at her what I had seen. And she stayed awake with me for a while. Eventually I did calm down, but I could not sleep at all that night. I had to make sure my blinds and curtains were closed. And after that I started avoiding the road entirely, going the long way around, truly. Until I moved in. 2023.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I have not seen anything like it since. But every now and again it pops in my head and I get that bone deep sick feeling all over again. Thanks for reading my story. Love you. Ladies, gentlemen, and tj.

[B]

It does kind of make me wonder, like, are these chance encounters that everyone has with not deer and creatures like this, or is this like. Like the fact that it's like standing up and looking at tj? Like it's waiting for tj and like,

[A]

but at first it was just eating grass. Like it seemed like a normal deer, right? Like, it does feel a little bit like protectory. Like how the way the swans and geese will hiss at you if you go by their babies. But there are other encounters where it feels like it's lurking at the edge of the woods, waiting.

[B]

Wait.

[A]

Yeah, for someone or something to come.

[B]

I don't understand what they are. And I know that's the point of so many cryptids. It's like there's theories.

[A]

I think they're cryptids because we don't know. Yeah, right.

[B]

But like certain lore you get like, okay, like this La lechuza is which who turns into an owl. Like you get more explanation. But I feel like not dear is still so unclear.

[A]

So scary. They're so unsettling.

[B]

Is it a forest spirit? Is that like what?

[A]

And what does it want?

[B]

What does it want? And why does it eat roadkill sometimes?

[A]

I know. And also, why haven't any of our listeners who have seen Champ emailed us?

[B]

That's a great question. Because we know you're out there.

[A]

We know you're out there or you know someone. Yeah. I feel like the Vermonters have come a flocking because of you.

[B]

So give me what I want.

[A]

It's her birthday.

[B]

Naked turtle birthday party.

[A]

Oh my gosh. You didn't bring her a gift. Guys, that's really rude. Showing up to her birthday party a gift.

[B]

I can't believe it. How un Vermonter like of you.

[A]

Corinne wants gifts and she wants stories. Of.

[B]

Of the gifts are stories from you. From Vermont.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And from you. From. From everyone. But specifically a call to the Vermonters to.

[A]

Hey, this is your call to action. Send them. And when Corinne is back from maternity leave, we will do a Vermont themed. Oh, I would love that encounter story.

[B]

That'd be great.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

All right, well, I am sufficiently sweating and I need to.

[A]

And I need my sandwich. It is at the door and I cannot wait to eat. Devour it like a not deer wanted to devour TJ. Anyway, everyone email us your stories. Two girls, one ghost. Podcastmail.com if you want episodes one week early and ad free. Plus bonus episodes, plus campfire stories, plus witch class and book club and so much more. Join us on Patreon. You can Watch us on YouTube. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends, all of your family and every strange not dear you see about our podcast.

[B]

Thank you to Jamie Ryan who edits and produces our podcast. And we love you and happy birthday. Thank you. And we will see you on the other side.

[A]

Very spooky. Hello.

[B]

Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.

[A]

The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney and Hulu.

[B]

We are digital, we are downloadable, we are streamable.

[A]

The fashion event of the year is certified fresh.

[B]

Pull yourself together. We have work to do.

[A]

Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel.

[B]

That's all.

[A]

Get Runway ready for the Devil wears Prada 2 on Disney and Hulu. Rated PG13.