Ep 1171 | Jase Confronts the Celebrity Baptizer Craze After Missy’s Poolside Moment

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Episode: 1171 | Jase Confronts the Celebrity Baptizer Craze After Missy’s Poolside Moment
Date: September 23, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode dives deep into authentic faith, exploring the meaning and practice of baptism, the potential distractions of “celebrity baptizers,” and the centrality of relationship with Jesus. The hosts—Al, Jase, Zach, and Jay—discuss personal stories about spontaneous baptisms at home, theological concerns about idolizing those who baptize, and how the Holy Spirit transforms believers from within. The conversation is both practical and theologically rich, laced with family anecdotes and honest, unfiltered insights.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Missy’s Poolside Baptism Experience (00:28 – 05:22)

• Retreat for Young Women: Missy hosts a mentoring retreat where strangers gather, study the Bible, and bond.
• Spontaneous Baptism: With no men present and several women wishing to be baptized, Missy performs the baptisms herself—her first time.
• Reflecting on Who Baptizes:

  “It doesn’t really matter who’s doing the baptizing... I agree, they were not leaving. And so I thought it was interesting.” —Al (02:10)

• Powerful Testimonies: One woman, linked to the military, says afterward, “I’m so sorry I left my old self in your pool,” moving Missy deeply.

2. The “Celebrity Baptizer Craze” & Theological Considerations (03:47 – 10:23)

• Dangers of Idolizing Baptizers:

  “...people who were, instead of following Jesus, they were following the people who were baptizing them. And Paul says ... ‘Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.’” —Al (03:24)

• Jase & Al Push Back: The family often gets requests to baptize people but encourages a focus on Jesus rather than the baptizer’s fame.
• Gender & Ordination in Baptism:

  “It really isn’t important ... I don’t think male or female would make any difference. People will even say, ‘well, are you ordained to do this?’ ... There’s no doubt the spontaneity of the first century.” —Jay (08:33)

• Baptisms as Opportunities, Not Arguments: Citing the Book of Acts, they stress the value of responding to spiritual opportunities without over-complicating the process.

3. Authentic Conversion vs. Public Performance (09:04 – 15:48)

• Avoiding Distraction:

  “First time I became famous and did an event, the first handful of people I did an altar call … wanted a picture. … I thought, well, I’m a distraction.” —Jase (09:12)

• True Change Over Recognition:

  “If someone falls in love with Jesus, you’re not going to have to worry about trying to get them to do anything. They’re not going anywhere.” —Jase (10:06)

• Memorable Missy Quote:

  “She was nervous about it till she entered the water. And she just said, then I thought, this is not about me. … I was just glad to have a front row seat.” —Al, recounting Missy (13:56)

• Funny Baptism Stories: The family shares laughs about mishaps but underscores the eternal importance of the decision.

4. Interpreting John 16: Warnings, Witness, and Winning (15:49 – 19:47)

• Outline of John 16: Warning of persecution, promise of the Spirit, and the assurance that “we win.”
• Charlie Sheen Story as Illustration: Jay draws a parallel to Sheen’s life, saying, “He wasn’t winning. He was losing his mind... now he’s sober... now you’re winning. I hope he’s winning in a spiritual sense.” (17:25)
• Relevance of Cross & Resurrection:

  “Even if you become morally better… ultimately death is still staring at you.” —Al (18:27) “He [Jesus] cleaned you, but he also redeemed you. … Which makes you eternal.” —Al (18:57)

5. Law, Spirit, & Relationship (19:47 – 39:00)

• Understanding the Law vs. Life in the Spirit:

  “The law was simply the way you were supposed to be... the problem is we actually can’t do that because of our sin.” —Zach (20:00)

• Fruit of the Spirit vs. Effort:

  “Peace is not something that you necessarily choose. It’s something that’s a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.” —Zach (22:00)

• Rule-Oriented vs. Relationship-Oriented Faith:

  “We tend to… make it kind of a rule-oriented equation.” —Al (24:41) “You have to get to the place… where the centerpiece of the relationship is actually to be known and to know the other.” —Zach (39:00)

• Walking in the Light (1 John): New Christians struggle with “keep on sinning.” Al and Jay clarify that it means a lifestyle, not a single act (30:30).
• Freedom, Not Burden:

  “In the spirit, you come to realize these commandments are not burdensome, these commandments are liberating.” —Zach (43:30)

6. Maturity, Discernment, and the Role of the Holy Spirit (46:06 – 56:09)

• Imitating God Through Love:

  “How are you going to do that? ... Live a life of love. That’s how you imitate God.” —Al (46:06)

• Contrast with Legalism: “Be wary of even a hint of sexual immorality…” as a warning against manipulating the law for self-justification.
• Discernment Enabled by the Spirit:

  “So in the garden, you think... Now when you have the Holy Spirit, that same question is going to come up. The evil one is still on the earth. … And the Holy Spirit inside of you says, ‘That’s exactly what He said.’” —Al (52:00)

• Living Sacrifice & Maturity: Citing Hebrews 5 and Romans, the hosts stress that spiritual maturity brings discernment and joy.

7. Final Takeaway: True Victory (55:34 – 56:20)

• Colossians 2: New Life and Disarmed Powers:

  “He [Jesus] forgave you your sins. … And I canceled the written code with its regulations and I disarmed the powers, so now the Holy Spirit can say no.” —Al (56:09)

• Winning Defined:

  “Winning, but real winning.” —Jay (56:20)

  • Not temporal, but eternal, found only through Christ’s work and the Spirit’s presence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m so sorry that I left my old self in your pool.” —Military spouse baptized by Missy (04:30)
• “I tell you what, you go home and study the Book of John like I just told you, and give your life to Christ and I’ll take a picture with you on the other side of the resurrection.” —Al to an altar call participant (15:00)
• “We want the Spirit of God. We want to be faithful. It is a desire. It’s a human desire for the right thing… That’s why the homing beacon is in all people to go home to God.” —Jay (49:04)
• “If someone falls in love with Jesus, you’re not going to have to worry about trying to get them to do anything.” —Jase (10:06)
• “In the Spirit, you actually come to realize these commandments are not burdensome. They’re liberating.” —Zach (43:30)
• “Now when you have the Holy Spirit, ...The Holy Spirit inside of you says, ‘That’s exactly what He said.’” —Al (52:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:28 – 05:22: Missy’s poolside baptism story and reflections on spontaneous baptisms
• 03:47 – 10:23: Dangers of “celebrity baptizer” culture; theological scriptural reflections
• 09:04 – 15:48: Celebrity distractions during altar calls and keeping the focus on Jesus
• 13:56: Missy’s personal feelings during her first baptism
• 15:49 – 19:47: Introduction to John 16’s sections—warning, witness, winning
• 20:00 – 39:00: Law vs. Spirit, fruit of the Spirit, and relationship versus ritual
• 30:30: Interpreting 1 John’s “keep on sinning” and assurance in the Spirit
• 43:30: Life in the Spirit as liberation, not burden
• 46:06: Living as imitators of God through love
• 52:00: Garden of Eden tie-in: Holy Spirit as the affirming inner voice
• 53:54: Spiritual maturity and discernment, referencing Hebrews 5
• 55:34 – 56:20: Colossians 2: spiritual victory through Christ

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation maintains the authentic, conversational style typical of the Robertson family: warm, direct, theologically earnest, sometimes humorous, and always unafraid to challenge religious conventions. The episode balances deep theological reflection with practical “real life” wisdom, making faith not only understandable but actionable.

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For listeners seeking guidance on baptism, the Holy Spirit, and walking in authentic faith free from celebrity distractions, this episode offers scriptural insight, encouragement, and plenty of Robertson-family storytelling to bolster your walk.

Transcript

[Al]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Jay]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We're wrapping up hopefully today. John 16. But Jace, we've been. We've been crisscrossing the fruited plains on behalf of the Almighty.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Sharing. Sharing the good news with. With all the folks, and it's. It's been a lot of fun.

[Al]

Well, what happens is, you know, I had a huge event last weekend that I talked about, but meanwhile, my lovely wife was back at home base in Louisiana, and she does this event where she has young women. I think I mentioned it. They're.

[Jay]

Yeah. Kind of like a mentoring thing.

[Al]

Yeah, like a mentoring. And so you never know what's going to happen or who shows up. These are just random strangers that buy the tickets and they come and they're housed at our old place that we have that's kind of a wedding venue with other women. But they don't know them, but they, you know, they're sleeping together in the house. And they do these. Missy does these sessions, you know, from the Bible. But every.

[Jay]

It's almost like the kind of the. Which is a very popular thing right now with the retreats. Right. Like the women's retreats.

[Al]

That's kind of what it is. But it takes a lot of courage. I mean, she's surprised that people show up to do this.

[Jay]

Yeah, me too.

[Al]

And. Yeah. Because it's. Here we go. And I think one, it shows that in our culture, people are wanting direction and life is tough, especially at that age. You know, you got kids running around in different situations. But inevitably, every time she does this, by the end of the weekend, there are some that hear Jesus for the first time and they want to surrender. And so usually I'm around when she's done this before. And so these young women want to respond to Jesus and they want to be baptized. And so since it's not at a church venue, you're kind of looking for the nearest water. And we have a pool, and they wind up, you know, in our pool. And I usually baptize. I think the last time she did this, I baptized three of these young women in our pool. And so. Well, this year I was on the road, and so my wife sent me a picture as I was traveling back, and it was her baptizing a girl. And then it was her and another girl baptizing a girl. And I thought, is this your first baptism? She was like, actually, it was. She said it was late at night and there were no men around. And I just thought, it doesn't really matter who's doing the baptizing. And they, I agree, they were not leaving. And so I thought it was interesting. And we had a really interesting conversation because, you know, a lot of people approach our family and they want us to baptize them. And we usually kind of push back a little bit because based on 1 Corinthians 1, which is an interesting study, when you read that chapter, you had people who were, instead of following Jesus, they were following the people who were baptized in them. And Paul says that famous statement in First Corinthians 1:17, which Missy said, I read that to them because I've heard you say that and read that where Paul said, christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Al]

And so, because you don't want to, you want to limit the distractions. But, but anyway, I told her, I was like, babe, but some.

[Jay]

But somebody has to do it well.

[Al]

Right? And I said, you know, in that situation, I think you did good and you, you get people to focus on Jesus and it's between them. But she said, well, it was worth it because she's been doing what I've been doing. When you kind of have your profession of faith there based on Romans 10, 9, 10. She just asked them, what's your confession? I mean, she spends 40 minutes talking about Jesus and one minute talking about baptism, because Jesus ultimately is what's saving you here. You're just getting to participate in it. And so she said, she asked them their confession and she's like, it's just so tear jerking on what they say. It's all about Jesus and them wanting to surrender to him. But she said one of them was in the military and she's married to a guy in the military. And she said after it was over, they were leaving the house and she said, I'm so sorry that I left my old self in your pool. Missy said, it just moved me when she said that. She said, I think it kind of came from this no man or woman left behind type of thing. And Missy's like, it's okay, there's a lot, there's a lot of old cells. And they had a chuckle about it. But she said, wasn't that interesting that she said that? I thought, I think it was.

[Jay]

And, and interesting that she really gets the point of it all, because I, I've said that so many times down there on that little spot where dad used to, when all of us used to baptize people. It was kind of a little low area where a little Boat ramp is. And it was easy to get out there, not get all muddy. And I, and I always used to always say, boy, there's a lot of old people floating down somewhere underneath this.

[Al]

I was baptized there myself, you know.

[Jay]

Me too.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So that's why we caught it. The old. When we lived in Calhoun, we had this pond out behind our house when Jill and I were doing college ministry. We essentially did the church plan at university and we'd have Bible studies every night, just about every night at our house. And a lot of people got baptized in that pond. So we ended up calling it the graveyard. So let's go down to the graveyard.

[Al]

Yeah. Well, I think it stemmed from, you know, in the Book of Acts. It kind of seems similar to, you know, what our teenage years were like al down because we were in the middle of nowhere. There's no driving to town and finding some kind of hidden. He did Baptistry. And our parents were sharing Jesus every other night with somebody. Whoever showed up down there. And even when we would go on guided hunts, they had no idea what they were getting into. They paid some money for us to take them duck hunting. And what they realized is this was going to be about a five hour Jesus presentation in a blind, surrounded by water and men with guns. And. And my dad would just. He baptized so many people after the duck hunt, during the duck hunt, because he would never see them again. And it really wasn't about this in the religious world. People get into baptism and do we have to and should we do it or what does it mean? I think based on reading the Book of Acts, it was an opportunity. The feel of the flow of baptism when it's addressed, it's an opportunity rather than something that you should be arguing about, you know.

[Jay]

Exactly. And it's the. This when you read the Book of Acts, especially just so many different stories of sort of spontaneity like, like what Missy experienced. Oh, yeah, the guy famously in the chariot, you know, and they. Oh, actually, yeah, he tells about Jesus. He looks at me and says, hey, there's some water. What about here?

[Al]

Yeah, they're just in the middle of a desert. And, you know, and you know, y' all remember Phil from previous podcasts, all you longtime listeners. I mean, he, he just famously would go on these rants. He was like, how long did it take for them to baptize? How long did it take? I mean, for crying out loud, they're riding along in a desert. There's no, let's wait before we can get to a public Setting or to something. How long. He said, stop the chariot. Stop the chariot.

[Jay]

You channeled your inner dad.

[Al]

I mean, isn't that exactly what he used to. Heard that a hundred times. You know, but I. You know what? The man's got a point.

[Jay]

Yeah. And when you. When you brought. Since you brought it up about the baptized, er, it really isn't important. And I don't think male or female would make no difference in. People will even say, well, are you ordained to do this? As if somehow there's some ordination that makes you special to baptize people. Yeah, there's no doubt the spontaneity of the first century. I just thought about. Was it Acts 16 with Lydia, there was a whole church that began in Philippi with just women. Well, you know, they were baptized and they met homes.

[Al]

I mean, yeah, it. But somehow another. You know, how did we get here, Al? You know, that's why I get a lot of flack, because when I speak, I mean, I did this event. I don't do the altar call. And they were like, what? And I was like, well, here's my philosophy and here's my story on why I don't. I was like. The first time I became famous and did an event, the first handful of people I did an altar call that came down, wanted a picture. It's like they're singing the song in the background, and the guy, I mean, I come up, I race him, and I'm like, all right, what's your story? And he's like, can I get a picture? I just shared Jesus. You've come down, you've been invited to come down and you want a picture. I thought, well, I'm a distraction. I see that right now. So now I just tell people I'm going to share Jesus, because my conviction is if someone falls in love with Jesus, you're not going to have to worry about trying to get them to do anything. They're not going anywhere. And so I tell them to go home, read the Book of John. But I said, if it'll make y' all feel comfortable. Like, the church setting I was at, I was like, y' all do the after call, Y' all do the altar call after I leave and take care of, which they did. And they were sending me, which is.

[Jay]

And there's a reasons why that's better. I do the exact same thing. The reason why, other than what you described, I had a very similar experience. Somebody wanted me to sign something in that moment, and I was just like, oh, it's so inappropriate. I mean, people reporting their hearts out.

[Zach]

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[Jay]

But the other thing is a local church needs to have local people dealing with local folks. I mean, like, these people live here or have come here and you're going to be there. We're just. We come in and we share Jesus and we're back on the. The big airplane, you know, heading someplace else. So it, it's better in those situations. But, Jay, I was going to tell you, I don't know if y' all knew this or not, but. So when we talk about our story, Lisa was baptized, so she, you know, she had, had. She had been baptized when we first got married, but the way she puts it now, she was really baptized into the Robertson family more than into Christ because, you know, obviously she. She didn't quite have a grasp of who Jesus was yet, in essence, I was the Lord of her life instead of Christ, which created a big mess for our marriage, as you can imagine. But at 33, I mean, she had the moment, you know, she had the moment that you're describing some of these women had with Missy. And so she was. But we were split up. So, I mean, there. And she was having a. An ongoing daily Bible study with some sisters led by Paula Godman, you know, who was her best friend. And. And so she came to the realization that, you know, I, I'm a believer now, but I. I need to bury this old person. You know, I need to become something different and new. And so Paula baptized her in Tony Neal's pool. And. And she's always told that story. And, you know, of course, we've always laughed about. I said, well, you know, Paula was a power lifter in college. I said, I guess if anybody could pull off baptisms, it'd be her. But I was going to ask you if Missy, like, was she nervous about it, never having done it, like, the, the. Just the technique of getting it done, or has she watched it so many times that she knew I was.

[Al]

She said she was nervous about it till she entered the water. And she just said, then I thought, this is not about me. And she said, I just felt a sense of peace. And of course, these two women, she just fell in love with them. She's like, they were just so broken and just melted at hearing Jesus. She's like, I was just glad to have a front row seat. I mean, that was kind of her take on it. And she had stressed so much that it's like, it doesn't matter who baptizes you. You know, this is. You've heard Jesus for the first time and you're wanting to surrender to him. And she said by the time they got to their confession, she was just like, they were just pouring their heart out. And so I think I thought, good job. I mean, because that's why I said I was kind of offended when the guy wanted to take the picture, which I responded. I said, I tell you what, you go home and study the Book of John like I just told you, and give your life to Christ and I'll take a picture with you on the other side of the resurrection. That'll Be good incentive.

[Jay]

Yeah, that's good.

[Al]

So if I have to. First thing, when Jesus comes back, if you see me over in the corner taking a picture with a couple of people, that's what that's about.

[Jay]

I love it. Well, tell Missy that if I'm ever needing somebody to be in a baptizer.

[Al]

I don't think that's going to be.

[Jay]

An ongoing thing, because we have many funny baptism stories through the years of things that go wrong. But it's always good to hear that.

[Al]

Well, that was funny. But she was like, well, there was no men around. And I basically, what. What am I going to do? She's like, I just made a kingdom decision. I was like, good job, babe.

[Jay]

I love it. I love it. And. And I guarantee you those women will be changed forever because their decision. So that's. That's the blessing.

[Zach]

No question about it.

[Jay]

So let's. Let's get to John 16. I'd like to at least read this back half because we've been kind of teasing at it for a couple of podcasts. My outline, which outlines don't really matter, but I did want to tell you what it is because it's a kind of a classic, I guess, preacher outline. But this. The way I broke down this chapter was the. He talked about the warning at the beginning, which we've talked about quite a bit, which is the, you know, the world will hate you because it hates me. And then this last section, the last couple of podcasts, I call that the Witness, because this idea that Jesus is our witness from the Father and then that he's going to. The Holy Spirit's going to come and then live in us to then be the witnesses going forward. And then this last one section that we're going to get into today in 6, 17 through the end of the chapter, I call winning. And I thought it was kind of interesting because. Because he's. Ultimately, that's where he's going to end this thing is. Look, we win. We. We overcome. So, you know, he's trying to really give them an encouraging kind of finale to this conversation about the Holy Spirit. And I don't know if you know, if y' all noticed if you've seen this last week, but I guess Charlie Sheen has a new documentary or maybe a book or something. I don't know. But I just happened to catch an interview with him the other night. You know, that was his thing when he was, like, losing his mind, literally, I guess, because of drugs. He had this whole thing. Remember winning, Zach? Yeah, winning. You Know, and. But he wasn't winning.

[Al]

He was.

[Jay]

He was losing his mind. And he went through all this terrible thing. Well, I hadn't seen him in years, so I didn't know what happened. Well, now he's come out with this thing, and I don't know what it is, or I hadn't seen it, but I did find it fascinating that in this interview, I watched him. He said he's been sober now, no drugs or alcohol for eight years. And he. He was the. He was the most. What would you call it, lucid that I've ever seen him. I don't know if, like, he didn't talk about any kind of relationship with God or anything. So I don't know what changed. Maybe just finally found the right treatment center or whatever. But I was thinking to myself, but he was kind of like, not the crazy interview from all those years of just his whole life melting down. I thought, now you're winning. Yeah, I mean, I hope you were winning. I hope he's winning in a spiritual sense. I don't know anything about him, but for sure he was. He made sense. And some of that period of time where he didn't was terrible. So anyway, that has nothing to do with this, but I just thought that was interesting.

[Al]

Well, the ultimate victory, though, is that's why the. The cross and the resurrection. Even if you, you know, become morally better and have a few years on your life, ultimately death is still staring at you.

[Jay]

Yeah, exactly.

[Al]

And so I think we did. We sometimes detach, you know, try to detach what Jesus accomplished. Like the cross from the Resurrection.

[Jay]

Right.

[Al]

I mean, it goes together.

[Jay]

It does.

[Al]

He cleaned you, but he also, you know, redeemed you. But you. He dwells in you, which makes you eternal. You know that. Romans 8, 11. Because we. We touched on Romans 8 last time. I mean, you could read the whole chapter talking about how the Spirit works, this new relational transformational where it's. It's like the law of the Spirit of life. Set me free from the law of sin and death. It's no longer about, like, 1, 2, 3 regulations in morality. It's in fact, in Colossians 2, he says he nailed that law to the cross because it stood opposed to us, even though it was good. But because of our weakness, we just can't keep the law.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's a hard thing that's hard to understand without this teaching of Jesus on the coming of the Holy Spirit. Because Paul again, comes in later and really flushes out or fleshes out, pun intended, fleshes out what the Spirit actually does in us, in our flesh, the law, because I think it's the wrong way to see the scripture is the law was mad God, and then the Spirit is nice God. The law is Old Testament. That's the mean God. But then he changes into nice God and Jesus. That's not actually the teaching of the Bible, because the Bible was teaching God doesn't change. And so when you think of the law, the best way that I understand the law is the law was simply the way. It was the way that you were supposed to be. And if you wanted to get access to God's presence, here's kind of how you do it. Here's all the things you gotta do, which is basically be holy, be good. And this is how you can be with God, who is good. The problem is that we didn't have the. We actually can't do that because of our sin. And so when the Spirit comes, he's going to be the means by which we can actually do this thing. Like, he is going to. He is going to. We're going to do it through the Spirit. So you can't. You know this in your own life. I've said it many times in this podcast. A person cannot simply choose to have peace. I mean, that's the whole point of anxiety, right? If you ever talk to somebody who has deep levels of anxiety and you just tell them, well, choose to not be that way. Choose to have peace, they're going to look at you like you got two heads. Like, you think I want this. You think I want to live in perpetual anxiety. You think I want to have this heart that's just full of worry and living in fear. Nobody wants to be that way, but we are that way. So peace is not something that you necessarily choose. It's something that's a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It's his fruit. And so the teaching of Jesus when it comes to the Spirit is going to be how we are coming under his revelation and participating with him. And our participation is not in the participation of producing anything. It's a participation, and we just cultivate with him and then we plant. You know, we do that, but God causes it to grow every single time. So whatever. The thing is that you want peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, you want these things, the answer is not go conjure them up. The answer is, well, you probably need to get connected with the Holy Spirit and figure out what kind of garden work you need to be doing so that he can produce that crop in you. You know, when I think about the impact that Christian camps and clubs have had on my, not just on my own life, but generations of our family. It's a little bit overwhelming. Well, our friends at Tomorrow Clubs are stepping into the gap for K who need that same kind of life changing love. They teach kids all over the world about the mission that Jesus gave us, which is very simple, right? So go and make disciples of all the nations. That's what we're called to do. So just imagine the difference when one kid meets Jesus for the first time through a Tomorrow Club. Well, for Diana, a 17 year old from Moldova, it really turned her entire life around. Six years ago, her parents had to leave her behind to go work abroad. And she felt forgotten and was really searching for a safe space, space to belong. She found that belonging at a Tomorrow Club. And more than that, she found Jesus there, which is amazing. And now she's leading the same club in the same place, carrying out the Great Commission and showing the next generation how to follow him. And you know, why do stories like this matter to us? Well, because this is what we're called to do. It is the whole point of this podcast, which is to be unashamed for the gospel. And that is exactly what the Tomorrow Clubs are doing. So we're asking our unashamed audience to join us in this disciple making movement by sponsoring 30 Tomorrow Club Kids for just 30 bucks a month. 30 disciples for $30 a month. Just super easy. Just visit tomorrowclubs.orgunashamed or you can text 30KIDS to 44321. Let's help this great ministry reach more kids in some of the world's most forsaken places. Visit TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed or simply text 30KIDS. That's 33,0KIDS to 44321 today to become a Tomorrow Club's ministry partner.

[Jay]

Zach, when you were saying that, it reminded me, remember that old Bob Newhart bit where he was a, he's playing like a psychiatrist. And the guy, the person has that are like, I have this fear of being put into a box. And he was like, well that's stupid. I mean, just don't think about that. Are you stupid?

[Zach]

Stop.

[Jay]

Just stop it. Just stop doing that.

[Al]

Well, I think though I would come at it from, I agree with what Zach just said, but my angle of approach is like we tend to be deceived or try to just have this attitude of, okay, if I come to Christ, tell me what I have to do and what I can't do. And we make it kind of a rule oriented equation.

[Jay]

We just come up with new laws.

[Al]

Well, it's like, it's like. So I had a question from, you know, I'm just a disciple or help mentor a lot of new Christians via text. And I brought them up before and they're doing really well. But one of them is in First John now. And he sent me a text because he read in First John 3 where it says, where does it say, yeah, it's 4 and 5. Here was his question. Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that when he appeared so that he might take away our sins and in him is no sin. And then verse six, no one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. So what do you think his question was?

[Jay]

What, how do. What does this keep on sending? Someone sent me a similar text. I'm glad you went here.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jay]

What does that mean? Right.

[Al]

Well that's.

[Jay]

Well, because just because he said we keep sending. Right? I mean like what does that mean?

[Al]

And do we disagree with that? Because, you know, my initial response was I see why you asked me this question. Yeah, I knew he was going to ask the question because he read the book of John. And I said, well, go ahead and read First John. And I said, now look, some of it's going to be difficult for you to wrap your head around. The guy's a new Christian. He was on our podcast, one of these military guys. But his response was just absolutely awesome.

[Jay]

I only interject before you read that. So whoever sent me that email listened to this because I haven't responded because I've been busy, but we're about to talk about this. So.

[Al]

So I told.

[Jay]

I would have emailed you.

[Al]

Yeah, so I told him, first, go back and read John the chapters 14 through 16. That's where I started because I was trying to introduce. You got to go back of what does it mean for the Holy Spirit to move in you and think this new self versus old self that we referred to in Ephesians 4, you were being controlled by the flesh. Just kind of think. 1 John 2 that your cravings, the lust of the eye, the pride of life, going back to the garden illustration, you want to be the God of your life in determining what is good and evil. Kind of like pursuing things that feel good versus pursuing things where you're doing good. I mean that's kind of the. How do we, how do we get into the doing good? Because that takes Work, patience, sacrifice, you know, doing good, just. Just for an illustration. It's like it takes zero work or accountability to go sleep with every woman who will have you. But to have one woman and wait till you get married. Well, now all of a sudden, you got to go to work, you got to have a plan, you got to do things. So that was kind of the point there. But then I wrote, let's see. I said, you have to go back, read chapters 14, 16 in John and the role Jesus plays going to the Father, which we said that when he said, when I go to the Father, righteousness will be revealed. Remember, he says, when I came to convict the world of sin because people don't believe me, righteousness because I go back to the Father. So I was like, what does that mean? Because then when you read First John 2:1 and 2, because he's. He's asking questions about First John 3, but I'm like, well, First John 2 has this image of Jesus at the right hand of God. If anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Well, that follows First John one. I was trying to back his mind up to what he had just read, where it says, if anyone walks, verse 1 6, if we claim to have fellowship with him, yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

[Jay]

But.

[Al]

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. So what I was trying to get him to picture is that when you're reading one John from this idea that the Spirit guides you to all truth, he reminds you of what Jesus said and did, then you have Jesus the Son, at the presence of the Father on our behalf. Somewhere in that combination, you're in a state of complete forgiveness. Romans think Romans 8:1. There's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And then he launches into what? The Spirit of life. As you're leading this relationship, did you want to say something?

[Jay]

I was going to say, you're exactly right. And just in point of reference to that one particular phrase, sometimes why it's hard when things were written in another language, but the keep on sinning idea anyway is the Greek word. There is the idea of the lifestyle of sinning. So in other words, as you pointed it out in chapter one and chapter two, we realize sin is still present. What's the difference? Now the Holy Spirit of God lives in us. The lifestyle that you once lived, the old person that we talked about before that has been buried and put away, and the new person, now that's being led by the spirit of Christ is different, is changed, and you'll see the fruit that comes as a result of that.

[Zach]

That's Paul's argument, right in Romans 6. I mean, Romans 5 ends with, I'm paraphrasing here, but essentially, hey, let me tell you guys how amazing the grace of God is. It's so amazing that the more you sin, the more grace you get. I mean, that is how the whole, like Romans 5 ends with that. And that's coming out of this idea which you just mentioned about the atonement that Christ paid for our sin. That's coming out of that argument. The same thing in Romans 5 where he says that while we were enemies, while we were alienated from God, while we were sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. So you get to the end of it, he says, and it's so good that the more you sin, the more grace you get. And the question that anyone's going to ask in that moment, if you're thinking under a legal framework, you're going to think, well, then I guess I can go sin all I want so that grace might increase. I guess what you're telling me, Paul, is the more I sin, the more grace I get. I need to just go out there and sin a bunch more so I can get more grace. And so Paul answers that dilemma in Romans 6:1. Because, you know, we made up the chapters. There wasn't the chapters when Paul wrote the letter. So the very next sentence is Paul answering that question, what shall we go? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? And what's his answer? By no means. Well, why? Well, we died to sin. How can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with Christ in baptism into death, in order that just as Christ is raised from the dead, we too may be raised to what? To live a new life. And so that Romans 6 passage is really a whole lot more about sanctification. So what he's doing in this moment is he's asking a question with one frame of mind, but then he's answering it with another frame of mind. He's asking the question as if he's in the law, but then he's answering the question as if he's in the spirit. And I think that's why it's so difficult to understand that. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8. But then what does he go on to say? It's life in the Spirit. This is why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. One, because Christ paid for it on the cross. It's finished, done. And two, that it's in Christ that you get the Spirit. And then you can experience true freedom through sanctification. And then the hope and the promise one day that even though the prince of this world, to quote John 16, now stands condemned, we don't. And judgment. When judgment comes, it's not going to come on those who are covered by the blood of Christ. We're going to be freed from the presence of sin one day, and there won't even be the potential to believe in a lie anymore. We are going to be fully justified, sanctified and glorified in Christ at the second Coming.

[Jay]

So, Jase, we have been taught, or we were taught, I guess, from youth, that we had to obey the federal law when duck hunting because it goes under the federal statutes. And a lot of people probably don't realize that.

[Al]

Yeah, I mean, I think my dad, at that point of our life, since we had no money, he didn't want to pay any fines.

[Jay]

He was like, we got to be legal boys. And anytime somebody brought a guest, the first question was, are you a federal agent? Just to know if we needed to be extra careful, I guess. But he always used to ask that, which was kind of funny. But you do have to have a federal duck stamp and to hunt every year. And now it's easier than ever to get one. You can go to duckstamp.com and choose the new digital duck stamp, and they'll send it along with the proof of purchase right to your phone or computer. So no paper, no stress, no more keeping up with it all season. And I was always misplacing mine. And here's the part that we love the most. Almost every dollar goes straight into protecting wetlands and wildlife habitat. That means you're not just following the law, but you're actually supporting something that lasts. A better hunting season, sure. But also a future for your kids and your grandkids that they can enjoy. So we love the conservation effort that goes behind this as well, whether you're a hunter or just someone who loves the outdoors. Go to duckstamp.com unashamed and grab your digital stamp today. That's duckstamp.com unashamEd.

[Al]

That's why I was back to our original context. Later on, when he has that verse in Romans 8, 11, when he says, if the spirit is living in you, it will also give life to your mortal bodies. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies. But it's two things there. He's living in you and he's going to give life to your mortal body. Well, the part that he's living in you is what I was addressing in that this forgiveness is ongoing because he knows your heart, you surrender to him. And so that's why first John1 talks about confessing your sins. So he's not talking about, oh, individual mess ups that we commonly all do. Because in our relationship with God and having this guide, the Holy Spirit inside of us, we're responding the appropriate way. Because he kept saying, well, you know, if you repent and confess, he was trying to get that before the relationship. It's like where all of a sudden every time I mess up, I got to go have some, you know, confession of sorts. Then I'm back. I was out, then I'm in. I was out, then I was in. I was like. But he knows the relationship and the response. You're responding appropriately when those things happen.

[Jay]

But you, you just, yeah, you said the key word jazz. It's relationship. And so, but it is. I'm so glad we're talking about this and I'm so glad you're having the conversation with the new brother. Because if you think about it, it's, it's as, as a relationship grows and matures in and thrives. And that's what happens when the Holy Spirit lives in us. But it, it takes time to make that happen. I mean, you know, the people we read about in the Bible, they were all new in the faith as well. And so, you know, they're dealing with the idea now that I gotta trust that the Holy Spirit is going to do what he needs to do. That means I have to do less, not more. And so it's just like with preaching when I was younger, you know, I felt like I had to dazzle. I had to come up with this and I had to come up with that. And man, my lessons need to be this. As I've gotten older, I realized my relationship with the Holy Spirit has grown to the point where, where he has a message. I just have to amplify that. I have to figure out what he's wanting to say to this group of people from his word that he wrote. You know, I was Just the mouthpiece.

[Zach]

Well, part of that, I think. Yeah, I think that spirit, though, too. It's also.

[Al]

Even.

[Zach]

Even moves into our, like, our righteousness, though. Like, I think that somehow I got to do all these right things and not sin so that I can basically have the credentials to come into the presence of God. And the problem with that is that I don't do the right thing even when I want to do the right thing. That was Paul's argument in Romans 7. And so when he gets to that dilemma, he's trying to figure out, well, how do I do the right thing when I don't want to do the right thing? And when I want to do the right thing, I do the wrong thing. And it's like. It's that inner turmoil that we all kind of experience.

[Jay]

Zach. It would be like. It'd be like having your marriage. And every day you woke up, your whole thought and approach to your marriage is, man, I hope I don't mess up today.

[Zach]

I hope I don't mess up today.

[Jay]

How can I hope I don't hurt her feelings that I hope? I mean, that would be a terrible relationship.

[Al]

It wouldn't work.

[Zach]

It's not going to work. It's not going to work because you have to get to the place in any relationship where the centerpiece of the relationship is actually to be known and to know the other. And so if it's performative alone, unless Your performance is 100% perfect, which it's not going to be. And that's the point of Romans 3, right? Everybody sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Nobody seeks him. I mean, we're all sinful. Everybody is sinful, so we're not perfect. And so now all of a sudden, I come into the equation of relationship. And if I'm coming into it with a performative mindset, then there's no possible way that I can ever be one with the person I'm in relationship with, because I'm not perfect, and I can't come into a relationship with God that way. And the only way that I can come into a relationship with God is if his righteousness is given to me. And then now that's dealt with. But I still have the issue of I still want to do the wrong thing. How do I get out of that? That's the question that Paul gets to in that dilemma. He says, well, who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to Jesus Christ our Lord. Then he immediately moves into the Holy Spirit. And so the Holy Spirit's Role. One of his primary roles is actually going to be to help us into not sinning. But here's the qualification. He's not trying to help us not to sin so that we won't be in trouble with God. It's post Christ. He's trying to rid us of the desire to do things that would keep us from the knowledge of God, to keep us from knowing him, to keep us from experiencing eternal joy, to keep us from experiencing happiness. So in a nutshell, we say, do you believe in the prosperity gospel? Well, it depends on what you mean by that. But yeah, I think that people in Christ prosper greatly. Like there is a spiritual prospering. That again, not to be redundant, but that is joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, as Phil would say. Try it on for a minute, Try it out.

[Jay]

Love one another.

[Zach]

That is the good life. So I think that's what the Spirit is moving us into, is actually an ability to participate in the. The really, really, really, really good life.

[Al]

Yeah, I. I think so. I mean, what I was going to say is when you read first John 4, when he says in verse 22, see 23, and this is the command to believe in the name of this, of His Son Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded those who obey his commands. Well, he's talking about to love one another. That's why I said, read John 14:16, A new command I give you. Love one another. Those who obey these commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us. We know it by the Spirit he gave us. And so my point is, if you go back to the Sermon on the Mount, what was his whole point? He was taking the law and saying, you've missed it. You've missed the point of it because you're trying to circumvent the technicalities of keeping the Law. And yet your heart hasn't changed. That's why when he said to be perfect, as my heavenly Father was perfect, well, he was introducing the concept of loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself, which is what he's referring to in 1 John 4. That's why when I started that Colossians 2, I wasn't going to read it. But now I feel like I have to.

[Zach]

Before you do, though, where. Where were you at in 1st John.

[Al]

1 John 4 at the end? I mean. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's 1 John 3. I said 4.

[Zach]

So listen to what, Listen to this point. What What John says in the very next chapter about those commandments of God that we are called to obey. Because I think this is the key to the whole thing right here. This is the key to the entire thing, if you want to understand the commandments of God. By this, we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments. And here's the key. And his commandments are not burdensome. And so this is how you know, right? If you view the commandments of God as a buzzkill, if you view them as a burden, you're. Oh, my gosh, though, we can't do any of the fun stuff we can't do. I got to do. I got to do the thing. I got now. Got to be nice. I can't gossip. I can't. Whatever. You're viewing it as a burden. But his point here is that in the spirit, you actually come to realize these commandments are not burdensome. These commandments are liberating. And that is the key distinction between life under law and life in the spirit. Life in the spirit, you begin to understand that the commandments of God. Wow. These are actually for my benefit. This is not a begrudging submission. This is a joyful submission and a joyful trust because we actually are believing in the promises of God. So, Jase, do you make time for your annual checkups? Visit your doctor, get your lab work, your blood work? Are you into that yet? Are you just kind of rolling through life?

[Al]

I'm just kind of rolling through life.

[Zach]

Well, Jason, I do see you at least got filled with greens right there on the table in front of you, so that's a good start. So this is one of the things that I've been on, which is a field of greens by Brickhouse Nutrition. You know, I just found out, by the way, we have two ages. One is the number on our license, and the other is our body's biological age. Here's the problem. Most Americans eat tons of processed food and not nearly enough fruits and vegetables. And that means that a lot of us are actually 10, sometimes even 15 years older on the inside than our real age. And it's like a ticking time bomb. But a major university study found a way to slow that down. And all took was this product right here, filled of greens. No diet changes, no new workouts, just filled of greens. Every fruit and veggie in the field of greens is doctor selected for specific health benefits. So, like, for your cells, heart, lungs, Kidney metabolism and even healthy weight. And this gives me peace of mind because I can slow down how fast I'm aging and it can be there healthy for my kids to be able to, you know, play with them. You know, we just went this week to the theme park and there was a lot of movement, a lot of things we were doing, and I wanted to be there for my kids. I take this product every day and I can tell you that it will help sustain your energy throughout the day. You don't get those afternoon crashes. Plus you're going to get better sleep and just overall health improvement. So I want to encourage you to join us. Just go ahead and skip the untested green drinks and go with field of greens. Check out the university study and get 20% off when you use our promo code [e-mail] that's fieldofgreens.com promo code unashamed.

[Al]

Yeah. The commands of the Spirit revolve around the Spirit. That's why it revolves around the fruits of the Spirit, because that's why he says in Ephesians 5 I read Ephesians 4 and 5 last podcast, but I didn't read this part and I know I'm fixed to read Colossians 2. But Colossians 2 is going to prove this point that I'm going to make from Ephesians 5 because he says, be imitators of God. Well, how are you going to do that? Therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, that's how you imitate God. Well, what is the fruit of the Spirit? Love? Just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. And then he does a really interesting thing. He shows you the contrast of when people who are said to be Christians are trying to manipulate the law so they can do what they want to do. Because the next section says, but among you, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality. Now just think about this. He wasn't saying there shouldn't be sexual immorality. That's obvious, right? To someone claiming to be a believer. So why is he saying there must not be a hint? Because they were still trying to live under that old law and then saying, well, this is technically not wrong, just like the Sermon on the Mount, but your heart has not been given to me and you're not living a life of love. That's his point. He says a hint of sexual immorality or of any kind of impurity. Why is he Saying any kind or a hint. Because these. What the. These are the things that people do who are trying to justify evil behavior and not give their life to Christ and live a life of love. Then he says, or an idolater or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joke in which are out of place. But rather than for this, you can be sure this is five. Five. No immoral, impure or greedy person such a man is an idolater. Well, what is an idolater? It's someone who changes the true living God to something else to justify how you want to live your life. That's why people serve idols, because they like the package and what they can do.

[Zach]

Well, they like them because they made them. And if you made it exact, then who's greater? The maker of the idol or the idol itself? And the maker is greater than the idol. So it's the Romans One passage again is to they exchange the glory of God and worship the things that they created rather than the one that created them.

[Al]

Right.

[Jay]

What's amazing about this whole discussion before you continue, Jace, is that even from the other world as we're describing, even from a worldly point of view, people really understand this in their own relationships, even if they're not sure why they feel this way. And the reason I know that is because when we stand before groups and I always say why do most people get a divorce or split up? You know, if they're just living together, it's mostly because of unfaithfulness. I mean, that's the number one thing. It's almost always somebody had an affair, somebody cheated, somebody had something going on the side, somebody was looking at this, that or the other. So I always say when you made a decision to be with this person, again, not even putting God in the middle of it, apparently you were had an expectation of not just 86% faithfulness or 52%, but you were expecting that this person was going to be faithful to you in this relationship, even if you don't have God anywhere in it. Well, why is that? Because something inside of us knows right and wrong. And just because you're choosing the wrong way, or just because you don't have the spirit of God, there's still something in there that's not right. That's why the homing beacon is in all people to go home to God. I mean, we want the spirit of God. We want to be faithful. We want him to be faithful to us. It is a desire. It's a human desire for the right thing, you know, And I think once you have the spirit of God, you can clearly see what it is.

[Al]

It's the light bulb and it's the. So it's like when you go back to the garden and Satan said, did God really say. Or he lies and says, when you eat of this fruit, you won't die. Well, fast forward to people who have the spirit when you think, did God really say, the spirit says, that's exactly what he said.

[Zach]

Great point.

[Al]

I'm going to prove it to you by this colossus.

[Zach]

That is a great point. You got to say that. That's a good spot. So I'm going to use that. So how'd you say that again?

[Al]

I said like, so in the garden, you think the spirit, at this point, his role had been to bring creation. He was hovering over the waters.

[Jay]

Hovering over the waters.

[Al]

And then he's also present when God breathed life, you know, man was taken from the breathed life. But now this spirit is not indwelling these people. You know, now we're getting that. John 7. That concept hadn't happened yet. So here you have humans and the only tree that he told them not to eat of was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because then you would have some form of a law, knowledge of that law. And so he's like, don't do that. Just trust me. Stay in the garden, eat all the other trees. Let's have a wonderful eternity together. And here's a tree of life here to keep you alive. And that is freely accessible.

[Jay]

And everybody's naked.

[Al]

But stay away from the knowledge of good and evil, because trust me, you're not going to do well if I give you a law. And understanding that. So here comes the evil one. He's like, did God really say that? Which is what the law is. It's like, don't do this understanding that you need to just trust me, because you're not going to be strong enough in your little human bodies to resist the temptation of that. So he questions that. Did God really say, then he lies, saying, you won't die. So he took away with the consequence. And it was nothing more than a lie. Fast forward to when Jesus came, redeemed us from the law, forgave us our sins. And I'm making a distinction there, because Colossians 2 does. And he took away. He disarmed the powers, which is Colossians 2:15. And that's where I got that idea was because now when you have the Holy Spirit, that same question is going to come up. The evil one is still on the earth. And he's going to say, did God really say. And the Holy Spirit inside of you says, that's exactly what he said. And it's like, you won't die. And you. The Holy Spirit says, oh, yeah, you're going to die. It's happening. And so you're like, you know what? I don't think I'm going to do that.

[Zach]

What's interesting, because we've been talking about in our. We did the Genesis series with Hillsdale. Yeah. And there was a weird thing he said. I don't know if I'm going to try to sum it up here in the last couple of minutes, but he said something like, had Adam perfectly obeyed the commandment of God not to eat of this tree, that eventually he would have reached, like, some kind of maturity that he would have been able to handle and been able to receive that type of knowledge of good and evil.

[Jay]

It was an interesting take. I had never thought about for sure.

[Zach]

Yeah, I'd thought about it before, but I've done some research on it, and I think it's. I mean, I think a lot of people would agree with it. And I'm not making a statement on where I stand on that because I haven't researched it enough. But it is interesting if that's true, that in the Spirit we are able to do that. And I think that that is the point of the worship passage that you mentioned earlier, Al. That to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is our spiritual act of worship. Then you can discern right through the Spirit. It's also the language that you get in Hebrews chapter 5, where it says something about, like, immature people, meaning immature in the faith. They're not ready for steak yet. They're not ready for meat. They're still drinking the milk. It says they're not acquainted with. With teachings about righteousness. And so the way that it frames it up is that the mature who by constant use have trained themselves through the Spirit to distinguish good from evil. That's the teaching of righteousness. Right. I think it has everything to do with this John 16 passage, that Hebrews 5 passage. Because he's talking about mature people in the faith versus immature and mature people. They're walking in the Spirit, and they have the ability, by constant use, by constant practice, through spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, you know, moment by moment, submitting to the Spirit, they can discern. And that's what the Spirit does. He helps us discern, which I love. The way Jay said it, simply put it, he just says, God did say. He did say that, actually.

[Al]

Well, we're out of time. I didn't have time. Zach hijacked my last point, but it was so good, I'm gonna forgive him. But if you read Colossians 2:9 through 15, he says all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form, and you've been given fullness in Christ, which would include the Holy Spirit. He then talks about our baptism. Then he equates that with us having our old sinful self cut off, our heart pricked. And then he's like, I forgave you your sins.

[Jay]

And.

[Al]

And I canceled the written code with its regulations and I disarmed the powers, so now the Holy Spirit can say no.

[Jay]

So I would say back to my original thought. Winning, but real winning. And we did it again. We still have not read this text from John 16, but. What? But luckily we have another podcast coming next week, so we'll see you then. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed Podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast, and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.