Ep 1184 | Why John Luke Quit Duck Commander Before His Parents Could Fire Him

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1184 | Why John Luke Quit Duck Commander Before His Parents Could Fire Him
October 10, 2025

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Overview

This lively episode showcases the Robertson family's signature blend of humor, Christian faith, and cultural insight. The crew—including Zach, Bella, Christian, and Lisa—share personal stories about family, working at Duck Commander, and faith lessons learned through the ongoing Unashamed Academy Exodus study. Expect anecdotes about family "firing" stories, in-depth discussion of Exodus and its links to the New Testament, and honest talk about struggle, obedience, and the growth that comes from both hardship and humility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Hijinks: Getting ‘Fired’ from Duck Commander

• Bella’s short-lived management: Bella recounts her two-month stint managing the Duck Commander store, where she “quit” before she could be fired. Family members teasingly debate whether she was truly fired or quit.
  • Memorable moment:

    “One, I hated it. Two, I was terrible at it...But people would steal stuff. Family members would. Just make stuff disappear.” (Bella, 00:38)

• ‘Sticky fingers’ among family: The gang jokes about how family regularly "borrowed" Duck Commander merchandise. Christian confesses to feeling owed some inheritance, justifying grabbing shirts now and then.

  • “A shirt or two here and there was, like, way short of two thirds of everything.” (Christian, 02:00)

2. Kicking off the Exodus Series

• Transition from Genesis study to Exodus:
  • The crew starts an Exodus Bible study, encouraging listeners to join them for free through Unashamed Academy and Hillsdale College.
  • They express enthusiasm about engaging with Dr. Jackson (the study’s teacher) and the depth he brings to the Exodus narrative.
• Key insight:

  “It sets up the battle really between good and evil. Satan versus God. What is God’s ultimate agenda? What is Satan’s ultimate agenda? …God’s agenda is life. Satan’s is always death.” (Zach, 07:04)

• Exodus as central to the Bible: Lisa shares an “aha” from Dr. Jackson: Exodus is foundational for understanding not just the Old Testament, but also the New Testament.

  • “I thought Exodus was just about plagues and stuff like that…It’s the like, pinnacle story of scripture…” (Lisa, 04:42)

3. The Cycle of Suffering & Multiplication

• Israel’s story as every believer’s story:
  • Christian recalls Dr. Jackson linking the suffering in Exodus with the recurring theme in Hebrew history and in Christian lives: even when released, people tend to slip back into unhealthy cycles.

  • “That’s just the repetitive cycle…But just like us, right?…you tend to want to go back under something you know is not healthy…” (Christian, 05:54)

• Faith under persecution:
  • Bella notes that growth often happens when the church is persecuted; easy times often precede spiritual forgetfulness.

  • “Whenever it’s easy, after we multiply and people forget God, you start to see the downfall. But in places where it’s persecuted, you see it flourishing…” (Bella, 14:35)

4. Cultural Reflections: Life, Family, and Spiritual Warfare

• Modern parallels:
  • The crew connects Pharaoh’s deadly strategies in Exodus to modern attacks on family, life, and procreation.

  • “If you were gonna attack a culture or people, that’s the way you’d have to do it…that’s exactly what [the enemy] does…” (Christian, 13:54)

• The value of children:
  • Zach tells of adopting his daughter Ruth—how, despite losing “freedom,” the family gained a greater capacity for love.

  • “Yeah, a lot of freedom was evaporated. But what we have obtained in exchange is…God’s expanded our capacity for love.” (Zach, 28:20)

5. Obedience and Identity

• Obedience as blessing:

  • Christian stresses that, throughout Exodus, disobedience (especially Pharaoh’s) leads to suffering while obedience brings blessing, a theme carried throughout the Bible.
  • The conversation references Nancy Pearcey’s research (from The Toxic War on Masculinity) on church attendance correlating with healthier behavior.

  • “If there’s one thing you see from throughout this whole process, the best way to be is obedient to God.” (Christian, 18:09)

• Names and significance:

  • Lisa is fascinated by the linguistic insight that Moses’ name means both “drawn out” and “one who draws out,” paralleling Moses’ rescue from the Nile and later role in leading Israel out of Egypt.

  • “Moses is drawn out of the river, but then God also calls him to draw his people out of slavery.” (Lisa, 19:28)

6. Literary and Theological Connections

• Midwives resisting evil:

  • The group admires the courage and cunning of the Hebrew midwives, who resist Pharaoh’s order to kill male infants, drawing parallels to acts of civil resistance.

  • “These women…knew he considered them…animals…They played into his narrative to thwart him.” (Christian, 23:12)

• Typology: Moses as prefiguring Jesus:

  • The episode explores Exodus as a foreshadowing of Jesus’ story, including the parallels between Pharaoh’s and Herod’s murderous decrees.

  • “Then you have this same exact picture happen when Jesus the Messiah shows up, go kill all the babies…So then Herod becomes like a pharaoh, which…they’re both like Satan…” (Zach, 21:44)

• Identity: Hebrew vs. Israelite:

  • Bella and Zach reflect on the significance of the Israelites reclaiming their God-given name, Israel, denoting a shift in identity and destiny.

  • “They made the switch…Like, no, we are Israel, the people of God. We’re using the name that God gave us…” (Bella, 24:11)

7. Personal Application: Humility, Struggle, and Growth

• Moses as everyman:

  • The hosts discuss Moses’ complex character—his confidence, indecision, and reluctance—seeing in Moses a model for the journey “from deceiver to struggler” and eventual humility.

  • “Without humility training, at some point in our lives we’re going to think it’s us. In those moments, you have to rely on God to do what he does.” (Christian, 34:47)

• Embracing the struggle:

  • Zach riffs on how “the struggle is real” perfectly captures Israel’s journey—and the Christian journey as well.

  • “It is real. Israel. It is. Israel is. The struggle is real. The struggle of Israel.” (Zach, 34:36)

• Growth in hardship:

  • The panelists agree that the deepest growth comes through hardship and humility, a spiritual process mirrored in Exodus.

  • “The fruit comes…the harvest comes through the struggle. Because the struggle actually puts us in the posture…‘I’m not sovereign. He’s sovereign.’” (Zach, 35:00)

• Helping others through suffering:

  • Christian shares that he and Lisa do marriage ministry not as “experts,” but from deep personal experience, passing on God’s lessons from their own struggles.

  • “You’ve suffered, now go suffer some more because you’re helping someone in that situation.” (Christian, 37:56)

8. Typologies and Christ as the True Deliverer

• Typology of Moses, Exodus, and Jesus:
  • They examine New Testament references seeing Jesus as a “better Moses” and Exodus experiences (ark, Red Sea) as prefiguring Christian baptism and deliverance.

  • "Just like Christ, not necessarily a second Moses, like a better Moses." (Zach, 48:01)

  • "The whole book of Hebrews is, like, looking at the Exodus story...and he's like, yeah, all that. Christ is superior. All of it. ...Christ is the point of the book of Exodus." (Zach, 48:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:38 | Bella | “One, I hated it. Two, I was terrible at it...But people would steal stuff. Family members would...” | | 02:00 | Christian | “A shirt or two here and there was, like, way short of two thirds of everything.” | | 07:04 | Zach | “God’s agenda is life. Satan’s is always death. So it’s a death work versus a life work.” | | 14:35 | Bella | “Whenever it’s easy...people forget God, you start to see the downfall. But in places where it’s persecuted, you see it flourishing...” | | 18:09 | Christian | “If there’s one thing you see from throughout this whole process, the best way to be is obedient to God.” | | 19:28 | Lisa | “Moses is drawn out of the river, but then God also calls him to draw his people out of slavery.” | | 21:44 | Zach | “Then you have this same exact picture happen when Jesus the Messiah shows up...Herod becomes like a pharaoh…” | | 24:11 | Bella | “...no, we are Israel, the people of God. We’re using the name that God gave us...” | | 28:20 | Zach | “Yeah, a lot of freedom was evaporated. But...God’s expanded our capacity for love.” | | 34:36 | Zach | “It is real. Israel. It is. Israel is. The struggle is real. The struggle of Israel.” | | 35:00 | Zach | “The fruit comes...the harvest comes through the struggle. Because the struggle...‘I’m not sovereign. He’s sovereign.’” | | 37:56 | Christian | “You’ve suffered, now go suffer some more because you’re helping someone in that situation.” | | 48:01 | Zach | "Just like Christ, not necessarily a second Moses, like a better Moses." | | 48:24 | Zach | "Christ is the point of the book of Exodus." |

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:01 – 03:02: Duck Commander family "firing" stories, merch disappearing, and family dynamics
• 03:24 – 05:54: Transition to new Exodus series; significance of Exodus in the Bible
• 07:04 – 13:34: Exodus as a cosmic battle between God and evil; parallels to family, life, and procreation
• 14:35 – 18:09: Persecution and flourishing of the faith; obedience as key biblical theme
• 19:28 – 23:12: Names and symbolism (Moses, midwives, parallels to Christ)
• 24:11 – 26:44: Hebrew vs. Israelite identity and God’s blessing on the midwives
• 28:20 – 37:56: Personal stories: adoption, humility, suffering, and blessing
• 40:56 – 48:24: Moses as type of Christ; typologies, baptism, better high priest; Hebrews' fulfillment in Christ

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Conclusion

The Robertson family weaves together humor, authenticity, and profound biblical insights, using their own stories and in-depth study to draw meaningful connections between Exodus and contemporary Christian life. Through their candid conversation, listeners are encouraged to embrace struggle, cherish obedience, value family, and see Jesus as the center of the biblical story.

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(Listeners are repeatedly invited to join the free Exodus course alongside the panel at unashamedforhillsdale.com.)

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Bella]

I was briefly manager of the Duck Commander store for about two months until I got fired. Actually, I didn't get fired.

[Zach]

You did get fired. Your mom told me this week that she said no one is in the business.

[Christian]

Wasn't that the premise of the whole first show is the campfire family?

[Bella]

Yeah. No.

[Christian]

Until you get fired.

[Zach]

You got moved. What would you say? You got transition?

[Bella]

I would say I quit. I would say I found my first replacement. I did it. And then whenever mom was like, bella's trying to find a job, I was like, oh, God, I got the job for her.

[Zach]

Mine.

[Bella]

One, I hated it. Two, I was terrible at it, so. But people would steal stuff. Family members would. I mean, you talk about. Just make stuff disappear. Like every podcast.

[Zach]

I'm getting a little nervous.

[Bella]

People would roll in. Zach's like, oh, people would roll in.

[Lisa]

So you're saying you weren' at your job, it was just people stealing the merch?

[Bella]

No, I'm saying I. I figured that out and saw how much merch was disappearing from family members in my two months.

[Lisa]

But did that have anything to do with your firing?

[Christian]

Did they blame it on you?

[Lisa]

Yeah. Did they blame the losses on you?

[Bella]

No. That was the one good thing I did, was figure that out and attempt to stop.

[Zach]

You got to take the wins where.

[Christian]

You can get them.

[Bella]

Attempt.

[Lisa]

And then after that, I mentioned that.

[Bella]

Well, we still want to let you fix the problem. I just identified that particular problem.

[Zach]

So if you're tuning in, this is unashamed for Hill cel at Hillsdale Friday. We just kind of sometimes just turn the camera on. We're in a good conversation. And I had mentioned that I had gone in there on occasion and grabbed merch. And apparently I may have been contributing to this problem, but I felt like it was very.

[Christian]

I always felt like that I. I was deserving of two thirds of the inheritance of Duck Commander, being the oldest son that I never got. So a shirt or two here and there was, like, way short of two thirds of everything.

[Zach]

So you always fel like, well, I.

[Christian]

Just felt like I was going back to my Jewish roots, you know, taking what I was owed.

[Bella]

I never say you.

[Christian]

No, of course not.

[Lisa]

And the next week, you see John Luke and he tells you he got.

[Christian]

Fired, and you're like, no, that's why, John Luke. That's why you're my.

[Bella]

Here's my real confession. I came in yesterday, Sunday and snagged some hats, and my friend we raided, and I didn't put it in the System.

[Zach]

So you didn't put it in the system.

[Christian]

Well.

[Lisa]

Next week when Belly gets fired.

[Bella]

Belly.

[Zach]

The last time I was here, I was here filming this, our genesis episode and episodes. And I walked in there and they have a guy in there working like, there's a. He's in the center of the room with a computer and it's like an all watching eye. And everybody that comes in, he's. And he's. Hey. What. What. What's this for?

[Lisa]

Are you talking about Luis?

[Zach]

Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to give. I didn't know if it was like, if he was like undercover or what, so. But yeah, you've.

[Christian]

You've. Yeah.

[Zach]

Save me family members. Okay.

[Christian]

I think he's above the covers. Well, we're.

[Zach]

Go ahead.

[Christian]

No, I was just gonna say Luis and I have an understanding because he was in an orphanage that I helped, you know, create years ago. And so that's just carried over to the current. Oh, I have turns. The blind turns to the blind. When I walk by, he just gives me a thumbs up.

[Zach]

I didn't see anything. Nobody's in here.

[Christian]

See, Zach, I could teach you some things.

[Zach]

So today we're starting our Exodus series. So this is exciting because we just finished up with Genesis. Yeah. So you guys can sign up and take the class with us. If you haven't signed up to take the class, it's free. And we would. Would advise you to take it with us because it makes it a whole lot more sticky and fun. You'll know what we're talking about because we'll reference stories that, you know, you gotta. If you're not taking it with us, or maybe something Dr. Jackson says because he's actually.

[Christian]

Well. And we're so excited. We just, we finally got to meet him in person. Got to meet him, you know, when he came in and did the wrap up for Genesis with us. And so that's fun for me because, like, you know, you meet somebody that you. I respect him because he's really good at what he does. And we're hoping you're taking the courses with us because that's the way to do it. I've learned a lot. And now in Exodus, I've learned a lot more, so I'm excited.

[Zach]

Well, we've been preaching on Exodus at our church, so this was like right up my wheelhouse for kind of where we're at in the season of our church and. Yeah. What did you guys think about the whole Exodus story?

[Bella]

Oh, yeah, it was awesome. I mean, I Like this video series more than the Genesis one. Because he did go deeper into especially some of the, like, some of the wording, the names of God. And I thought that was just really interesting to me. The names of the Hebrews, the difference in Egypt and Israel. I thought that was really cool.

[Lisa]

Yeah, more so from talking to him in person. I didn't really just was like I said we had, when we had breakfast, I didn't fully understand the idea of like how much Exodus truly like how much of the New Testament revolves around the story of Exodus. I thought Exodus was just a. Just about plagues and stuff like that. Well, I just didn't think it was any like, significant, you know, the New Testament stuff and things like that.

[Bella]

And it's like the most significant.

[Lisa]

And he was like, it's the. Yeah, it's the like pinnacle story of Scripture, which was, which was pretty interesting and yeah, something he talked about a lot that really I kind of found interesting was this idea of like, you know, talks a lot about the hand of God throughout Exodus and about how, you know, for Pharaoh, being Pharaoh, viewed himself as a God. And he, here's this, this man Moses, who's kind of one upping him and all these things and just from just like how inferior he would have felt to this man who is doing all these things that none of his people can do. So that was one of the coolest things for me was kind of learning more about that. I used to view it more as like Pharaoh versus God, but it's really more so Pharaoh versus Moses. And Moses is just a mere man and he's defeating Pharaoh.

[Christian]

Well, and it harkened back to me, you remember whenever he, Dr. Jackson was. We were talking about the suffering when he heard, was it Hagar, he said, I hear your suffering now go and suffer some more. And how he had mentioned then that this was going to be a narrative that's going to go all the way through the Hebrew history. And he's right. And you start to see the beginning of that standpoint here when they're literally enslaved and then they're suffering under this harsh place. And so this is going to be the way it's going to be all the way through. And even when you get to the promised land and later in Joshua and it seems like now there's finally victory, it just, it starts a whole new process for them. They get led away, then we get to judges. So it's just this repetitive cycle that happens over and over and over. But just like us, right? I mean, that's the idea sometimes even released, you tend to want to go back under something you know is not healthy, you know, is not good. And yet that's. And that's what we see.

[Zach]

That's what they wanted. Yeah, exactly. I thought it was interesting how Exodus starts. You know, when we were. We started our Exodus series at church. My initial text, I actually kicked off the series and it was. My text was Exodus 1, verse 1 through 7. And at first when I read it, I was like, man, how do I. There's just not. It seemingly doesn't seem like there's a lot of meat there. I'm like, man. But the more I got into it, I was like, man, it's so interesting coming out of Genesis, which we just finished. And there's this kind of narrative in Genesis that is seen right here in how Exodus is set up. And I think it sets up the battle really between good and evil. Satan versus God. What is God's ultimate agenda? What is Satan's ultimate agenda? Spoiler. God's agenda is life. Satan's is always death. So it's a death work versus a life work. But if you look at the beginning of the Bible, when God creates humanity, which we talked about in the Genesis study, Genesis 1:26, he created them in his image, male and female. And his instruction to them was to be fruitful and to multiply and then to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. And so the way that I've always read that and viewed that is like God creates humans and then he gives them a vocation. And their vocation is, I want you to go make babies, I want you to go multiply.

[Christian]

And then three, Apparently, y' all got that.

[Zach]

You guys are doing that well.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You too, Zach. I mean, you know, trying to be. The three of y' all have been buried. Obedience.

[Zach]

How many do you have now?

[Bella]

Three.

[Zach]

Three?

[Bella]

Yep.

[Zach]

And another one on the way.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Wow. And then. And then you got three and definitely.

[Lisa]

Not one on the way.

[Zach]

Yeah, y' all just had one. Y' all just had one.

[Christian]

We just had one.

[Lisa]

No time soon.

[Zach]

And your daughter, by the way, she. Your oldest guy, was your oldest daughter. Got the. We were here for the conference. Sadie's conference, live. Original conference with 3,500 young women. And the benediction at the end of the whole entire experience was your four year old daughter.

[Lisa]

It was her saying it very swiftly. Good night.

[Zach]

Yeah, they set her up for morbid.

[Lisa]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the sweetest. Yeah. She was singing. There was a video of her singing in bed last night when she was supposed to be sleeping, and she was singing Jesus from the mountains, Jesus in the streets. So she took a lot from conference, which was really sweet. So.

[Zach]

But that's like what God's called us to do is to create these families and cultures and societies. And it's like, be fruitful, multiply, and then basically take the Garden of Eden and then go expand the borders of the garden to encompass the entire globe, which is the idea there. The garden is a temple. So it's almost like God's like, I want my temple to be to spread over the entire Earth. And you're the agents that are going to do that. And then things got really wonky, got really disturbing. Sin entered the world, and then Noah happened, the flood happened, the war got so violent that God said, I just got to wipe everybody out except for eight people. But when those eight people were saved through the ark, God comes back and he gives us the same exact instruction that he gave Adam and Eve, which is to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And then you have the Tower of Babel story. When things get wonky again, and God comes in and he pulls Israel out or Abram out, he says, I'm going to make you a nation. And kind of the idea there is the same thing. You're going to be fruitful, you're going to multiply, and you're going to fill the land. And so when you get. And then Joseph happens, Joseph comes on the scene. I'm just doing, like, a quick recap of the book of Genesis. Then Joseph comes on the scene, and you have the whole story of how Israel actually ends up Egypt. The way that, like, the reason why the Israelites are in Egypt was because Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. And he rises to a prominent position, and then the whole family comes eventually.

[Christian]

What you think about Zach, the interesting part of that is that Abraham Abram, at that time in Genesis 12, is called out of where he was to go someplace different to the place. I'll show you. God said, and then now we're coming along. And then a promise was made that his lineage would go back and have this land. And yet we see this process working out that it took a trusting of God through the whole. Now we're talking about generational faith to believe they were part of that process. So every generation that goes along, they're waiting for this promise of God. And now we get to Exodus, and they find themselves literally enslaved and surrounded and seemingly no way out. And so you talking about the ultimate trust that God's going to do this? You know what I'm saying? I mean, like.

[Zach]

But it's interesting because when you've read these stories about Joseph in the past, or at least me, I taught them. A lot of times I've taught them almost like isolated stories. But then when you get to Exodus, you're like, wow, this is just a continuation of what's already been happening. And so when he gives the story here, he's saying before he even sets up that they were in a conundrum, he basically says that Joseph ends up there, but then the current leader, Pharaoh, just forgot about. He didn't know Joseph. And so if you think about, well, who does this pharaoh figure represent, which Dr. Jackson talks about, who does he represent?

[Lisa]

Satan.

[Christian]

Satan, yeah.

[Zach]

And so whatever his agenda is, it's similar to Satan's agenda. And so it's interesting to me that when you read what Israel did, it says in verse seven, the people of Israel, I just think it's so interesting, were fruitful and increased greatly. They multiplied and grew exceedingly strong so that the land was filled with them. So you read this and you're like, well, they did the thing that they were supposed to do, right. And it was that very thing they were actually doing, the cultural mandate. They were multiplying, filling the earth, doing all the things, and they're doing that inside of Israel. And then Satan, Pharaoh looks at that and says, I have to stop the fruitful multiplication of life. That sets up kind of the whole story.

[Christian]

Yeah. And he thought he had thwarted it. He goes, remember, it started with just 70 people. That's the group, that original little group that kicked off. And then now we're becoming this. What did Dr. Jackson say? Probably 2 to 3 million, because we have the number of men. And once you multiply it out to women and kids, you're talking about millions of people. And so this thing has flourished, you know, inside of Egypt. So just to your point, now they're ready to rock, but it's like, will they? Which is really interesting.

[Zach]

Yeah. What do you think? So when you read that, you think about our current cultural moment. I think that's why a lot of the attack from the evil one is always on. It ends up with a destruction of life and procreation, like the multiplication of life. You kind of see that strategy still employed today.

[Christian]

Oh, no doubt.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I mean, if you were going to attack a culture or people, that's the way you'd have to do it. You'd have to somehow keep that from happening, the multiplication process. And that's exactly what he does. I mean, how else do you explain was it now we're up to 60 million aborted children? And in some areas there's more children aborted, them born. I mean, that has to be of the evil one to Mike, or how would it even be possible for this to happen? So you see the mindset.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

And they say that there's no distinguishing numbers between outside the church and inside the church.

[Christian]

Right.

[Lisa]

Which is a crazy statistic.

[Bella]

The thing I was thinking about when thinking about how the Israelites in Egypt were persecuted, but then they continued to multiply, and then the more persecution, the more they increased, thinking about how that's how God works a lot of the time. And we see that in Christianity, too, where whenever it's easy, after we multiply and people forget God, you start to see the downfall. But in places where it's persecuted, you see it flourishing and growing, and it's persecuted. So it's kind of underground in Asia or the Middle east or places like that. But you see it growing. The harder the persecution, you still see it growing because people are still. God is working in them. He's hearing their cries, and you see them doing, you know, trying to follow him even in terrible situations. And you see him blessing, not.

[Zach]

Yeah. And by the way, if you're. If you're just tuning in, you can sign up and take this course with us for free at unashamed for hillsdale.com it's free, and you can get into the discussion with us. But that's a great point. I mean, you know, why do you think that it multiplies when they're suffering like this? What do you think that is?

[Bella]

I mean, I think that talking about what Christian just said about how you looked at statistics for divorce, abortion, for whatever, drug use, and it's like, oh, there's no difference in Christian communities versus non. But my question is, like, who are the Christians that they're interviewing? Is it like you've got to separate your cultural Christian or whatever versus your person who's actually following the way, following God, like of those people. What are you calling. Are you calling a Christian someone who says, like, oh, I'm a Christian, or are you talking about someone who's in church, in their community, worshiping, praying, reading scripture every day, trying to follow the things? Are they the ones following in the statistics, too? I doubt it.

[Zach]

There's a book by Nancy Pearcey where she cites a study that essentially looks at men who are the most violent men in America. And so they poll three different types of men. One group are atheists or non believers, non Christians. One group is nominal Christians, meaning that they profess the name of Christ. If you ask them on a survey, are you a Christian? Yes, I'm a Christian. And then the other group are people who attend church at least once a month or some statistic that ties it to church attendance and maybe reading the Bible, some just basic liturgical stuff that church people would do. And guess which group was the most violent of all the three groups?

[Lisa]

Nominal Christians.

[Zach]

Nominal Christian men were actually the most violent group, but the least violent group and the most faithful group was actually those who were in regular church attendance, because that was the marker of someone who was actually walking with Christ. So it would be interesting to see those numbers if you correlate them. But I just found it was a.

[Christian]

Toxic war on masculinity.

[Zach]

What was it? The toxic war on masculinity. How Christianity reconciles.

[Christian]

I just thought of it. It just came to me.

[Zach]

It just came to you. It just came to Teleprompter back here. Thank you, Maddie, for breaking the fourth wall again.

[Bella]

Yeah, I actually think that was part of the study. I didn't read the book, but I think that might have been where the study came from, from what I just said.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it may have been.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Well, she mentioned the study. I forgot the guy who did it. She just references it in the book. I found it interesting because it does kind of.

[Christian]

And it takes you back to the narrative that we've been talking about all through Genesis, and now we're going to see it again all through Exodus, about the idea of obedience. And somehow that got a bad rap because it's like. Because law is going to come out, obviously, in this book. So it's like, well, we can't keep the law. We can't really be obedient. We're humans. We're flawed, we're fallen. And so then we just somehow just excused ourselves from being obedient to God. And if there's one thing you see from throughout this whole process, the best way to be is obedient to God. Because what Pharaoh does is consistently not be obedient, even though consistently he has the opportunity to do the right thing, and he continues to choose to not do the right thing, which makes him ultimately suffer and his people suffer as a leader, which is really sad when you see it.

[Lisa]

And did anything stick out to y'? All? That was interesting about Moses name, because every time, you know, growing Up. I've heard, like, Moses means, you know, to draw one out, but he made the point of like, Moses name can mean. Yeah, one who is drawn out, but one who also draws out. So that cool. I thought that was so cool because Moses is drawn out of the river, but then God also calls him to draw his people out of slavery.

[Bella]

Right?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

So I thought that was so interesting. Of like, Moses is drawn out of the river of the Nile, but then God also calls him to be the one to draw his people out.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lisa]

I've never, like, heard the two used like that.

[Zach]

That's interesting because if you think about. We talk about this on a podcast a lot, that Christ, he saved us from sin and death. Right. He saved us from. So he pulled us out of. But we would argue that a lot of times, for a lot of people, the gospel ends there, when probably biblically, it doesn't. Biblically, it starts there and then he calls us out, and then he calls us to. So I think it's that same thing in Moses name that you kind of see that even when you're moving into the New Testament story, when Jesus comes, that he saves us from our sin. But John 6 says he also gave his flesh for the life of the world. So to something which you also see in the cultural mandate too, that go, go like you're my vice regents to go expand and have dominion and expand this over the earth. So I view that Christian as Moses exercising a form of dominion and acting as God's agent.

[Lisa]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Christian]

And look, this is the first place we talked about abortion earlier. This is the first place out of many places now going forward in culture where infanticide and abortion are brought in. That was how, you know, Pharaoh decided to deal with what he called the Israelite or the Hebrew. Problem was, we'll just kill all the males.

[Zach]

Why do you think he chose males? I'm just curious. You have any thoughts on that?

[Bella]

Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question.

[Christian]

I mean, I'm assuming just so he would stop the procreation of them, but I don't know.

[Zach]

He could have chose females, Right?

[Christian]

Right. He could have. That's right. Either way, unless he wanted to.

[Lisa]

If he was thinking maybe of it from like a. Like a military standpoint, I think it.

[Zach]

Probably was very strategic on the part of Pharaoh. I mean, you think about if you're going to subjugate a culture, then when you have to first, like feminize the culture so you. You kill the males off, that's a good point.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And so they couldn't form an interior military or like a revolutionary type idea.

[Lisa]

Is there a foreshadowing of that to Herod? Is there a correlation?

[Zach]

Absolutely, yeah. I think, yeah, we were talking about topology in the last. And looking at how these overlays into the New Testament. That's a great point. That like, then you have this same exact picture happen when Jesus the Messiah shows up, go kill all the babies, they go exterminate the threat. So then Herod becomes like a pharaoh, which ultimately they're both like Satan. So. Yeah, I think absolutely that there's a correlation here. And then Moses is a Christ figure, at least in that sense. So that's a really good point. But I think that's the thing about. I just thought it was interesting when God is the dealer of whatever the thing is, it's always that life is multiplied. So you mentioned earlier how in persecuted cultures the kingdom doesn't. You would think that that's when the kingdom gets stomped out in China, for example, underground churches, Iran. What's going on in Iran? There's been more Muslims brought to Christ in the last 10 years than the previous 1600 combined. You think, well, how is that happening in these persecuted areas? I think it's because where God is active, there's always life and life expansion. So then you got these midwives that come along, but even in the face of the. He's like, go exterminate the threat. And they just multiply even more because God's favor was resting on the right people. It's like, you can't stamp this out.

[Bella]

Right.

[Christian]

And I loved the point he made about the midwives being sort of the first ones to stand in the gap, you know what I'm saying? It was like these women and they even played the game because they were like, they knew he considered them, these slaves to be nothing more than animals. He was like, well, you know how, you know how the animals are. You know, they're so strong. They just have these kids before we can even get there to exterminate them. And so they played into his narrative to thwart him.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Which was brilliant. And. But I, I love that idea that God puts people in places to be able to accomplish what he wants done. And I, I was think when I was watching the thing I thought about, it's not really relative, but it is something interesting.

[Lisa]

Had you picked up, he kind of talked about it the like throughout Exodus, where like the difference between when they were called Israelites and then the Egyptians would call them Hebrews. Yeah, I never.

[Bella]

I never heard that. And I thought that was so interesting.

[Zach]

Talk about that a little bit.

[Bella]

So he said. So when in that first part of Deuteronomy, whenever Pharaoh is referring to the Israelites, he calls them the Hebrews. And then throughout the time that they're in Israel, the Egyptians call them the Hebrews, but the Israelites call themselves Israelites. Yeah, yeah. Which that kind of going on to, like, thinking about the name and the name of like, El being like God and like Israel being the people of God or the people who struggle with God, but specifically, like, Israel is the name that God gave them. And then they made the switch of, like. Like going from we're the Hebrews that these other people are calling us to like, no, we are Israel, the people of God. We're using the name that God gave us. And that's how they kind of like came together.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. Because. Because it all goes back to. They were descendants of Jacob. Yeah. Again, go back to the very first part of this. Jacob had 12 sons. And so Israel's coming out of Jacob. He was. Jacob was going back to Genesis, son of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham. And so Jacob is Israel. Jacob is referencing Israel. When you read in the New Testament, it'll talk about Jacob and Esau, for example, it's actually talking about Israel, not talking about the individual person of Jacob. It's the nation of Israel. And when they use Edom, it's talking about the nation of the Edomites. But yeah, I just love it again, that when it says here that God dealt with the midwives because they were the ones that were in there making the excuses really, for Israel and taking up for Israel against Pharaoh. And God rewards that. And he said God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very strong. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. And so even they were blessed. And their blessing was what, fruitful multiplication. And these were people that were the midwives that were supposed to kill the babies. And they said, we're not going to do it.

[Christian]

Do you think that meant that the. I've never thought about it before, but that the midwives couldn't bear children. And that's why they were midwives. And because they said he blessed them with family or just had they not. I mean, I wonder. There seems to be something in that blessing that they were lacking. And I've never really thought about it before because it says that, I mean, gave them families of their own, like, as if they couldn't Maybe have children on their own. Maybe they've been barren and maybe that's why they took that job. I don't know. And I guess I need to do a little deeper.

[Zach]

That's a good point. I don't know. Either way, though, they were. They were blessed with family. And so I think that's the thing that we, in our culture, we tend to think that children are a liability. And they are if you got kids like mine. But I joke around a lot about it because they tear up stuff. But I'm like, you know, oh, kids, man. But, like, man, I think about, like. So we adopted Ruth about the same time y' all had honey, and we were out of the game. Like, I was like, I was. I was out of the. The parent game. I'm like, man, I've. We've done that. Like, I'm. We were enjoying. Not empty nesting, but we could, like, go down and have a date. Jill and I, anytime. That.

[Christian]

Because your kids were big enough to.

[Zach]

Yeah. Wash themselves.

[Christian]

The oldest ones could watch the youngest.

[Zach]

Yeah, they could watch themselves. And so we would just go down town, our little town we live in, and we'd go have a date night whenever we wanted. Now, like, we gotta think about, like, babysitters and all that. And then you get diapers and all stuff that we were just out of that world.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Zach]

When you're in it, it's like you just buckle down. It's like, this is what we're doing. We're in it. You don't think about it. But then once you get out of that season, you're kinda like, man, this is awesome. So we were in that place, and I remember whenever we got the call about Ruth that. That popped in my mind a little bit, like, oh, there's a lot of freedom that's going to evaporate if this, like, happens, if we actually adopt this child. And. And the truth is, is that, yeah, a lot of freedom was evaporated. But what we have obtained in exchange is. Is God's expanded our capacity for love.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Which I didn't know I had.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so I understand that. What a blessed children are. Blessing from the Lord. And. And so now we have this new child that is our family that now I'm like, I can't imagine my life without this child. You guys can probably say the same thing about all your kids. Right. It does rob you of your freedom. But what you get some type of freedom, but what you get in return is such a blessing. And so I just. I think that that Narrative is so key throughout all of the Exodus story and really our story. When you think about what is actually at stake here, it's Satan wants to kill, steal, kill and destroy. And God wants to give life, which.

[Christian]

Is why he attacks family. I mean, it's always at the root of. It happened in the garden. It was that because, let's face it, this first sin we saw there, it didn't just destroy them in the sense of being kicked out of the garden, but it also put this impasse in their family. And then the first thing you see as a result is two of their sons. One of them kills the other one. You know, and that's the progressive idea that goes forward. You start attacking family, then you're going to start getting the problems you missed, the blessings. Don't forget to sign up to take these classes for free on unashamed for.

[Lisa]

Hillsdale.Com but I thought his point was so interesting that he talked about before Moses kills the Egyptian, like, kind of the dude, like two different school of thought of one, which is, I think what probably most people think of. He looks around to see if anybody's watching him, or the one he talks about is him looking around to see if anyone's going to do something about it before he chooses to kind of a more passive approach to it. But I never. I've never thought. I've never read that passage and thought of it in the latter sense. I don't know what y' all thought about that point.

[Christian]

Yeah, about his sort of indecisiveness. I had always taught it differently, and it made me rethink it because. Yeah, made me rethink it too, because I always kind of imagined, you know, Moses growing up and which we'll talk more as we go through about how his. His childhood was because of being in the house of Pharaoh, is being brimming with confidence and seeing that moment and thinking it's time for him to seize leadership. But he presented a different picture, and he could be right, that he always had a kind of an indecisive nature, especially about himself. And so he kind of creates that picture. He says there's two ways to look at that. One is, is there anybody watching? Because I'm going to kill this guy versus is anybody else going to step up and do something which fits what he says later when he doesn't really ensure he should answer the call of God? And so he's like, well, somebody's going to have to speak, because I can't speak. And it's really interesting. I Mean, it could be. I mean, it could be a flaw that you see all the way through Moses life. Because I'm not sure, I'm not sure that that 40 years out there with the sheep just totally waylaid his confidence is still a lot. It could be that as well. I'm not sure.

[Bella]

Yeah, I. Same thing. You could take it both ways. You could take it like, he has the confidence he's seen. If anyone sees him, he kills a guy. And that fits with what he does next was when he runs out to the wilderness and he saves his wife from the bandits. And it's like, oh, like, he's a. He's a confident guy. He's got. He's got it all together. Like he knows what he's doing. Or the other way is, you see that in decisive later, especially in the burning bush when God calls Moses. And. Which is one of my favorite exchanges of the Bible. I'm just going to paraphrase it. God's like, Moses, you're going to go back to Egypt. And he's like, I'm too old. And he's like, no, I'll give you the staff. He's like, oh, you're not going to believe me. And God, like, says, you know, put your hand in your coat. And he heals the sickness. And Moses, like, ah, I still think it's going to be enough. And he turns the staff into a snake. And Moses is like, no, that's still not good enough. And he's like, like, oh, well, no, you got it. And Moses is like, well, okay, fine, you can do all this power, but I can't speak well. And he's like, no, I'll give you Aaron, like, go. Every excuse, every excuse Moses can do. And he kind of does that up until they're out in the wilderness. Way later, after the whole exchange, Moses finally, like, goes and speaks to God and kind of recovers from that. But he doesn't get over that for a while.

[Christian]

Yeah, because think about it. I mean, 40 years have gone by.

[Bella]

This is.

[Christian]

Moses was around 40 when this happens. And he goes down there and then he's in that desert for 40 years. And, you know, there's like just a handful of verses covering 40 years of his life. But whatever it was, he certainly, whatever confidence he had in some of those early exploits, it's gone. He does not have that anymore. And I've always taken that as a symbol for any of us that we always have to have humility training in our lives at some point, which is why we go through difficult times. I mean, the New Testament, you see, the idea about James says that perseverance has to do its work, so you become mature and complete. And so the idea is without humility training, at some point in our lives we're going to think it's us. In those moments, you have to rely on God to do what he does. And so I look at our own family and dad turned his life around and so did mom. And then they move out on the river and they start a business and it's like you'd expect instant success, but it wasn't. It was almost 40 years for us, about 35 year humility training program where we literally were manna, except our manna was fishing and we had just enough to make it all those years.

[Zach]

Well, that's why I think, I think that's why the expansion happens inside of the struggle. Because this is the story of those people, those who struggle with God. Israel is like those who wrestle or struggle with God. That's right. So it's like, you know, the struggle.

[Christian]

And remember the change was from deceiver to struggler.

[Zach]

And that's the thing. Right, but he was a deceiver. But he became a struggler.

[Christian]

Exactly.

[Zach]

Because you read that text and you're like, man, how is this guy, guy, the guy, if he's, if he's wrestling with God, isn't that kind of disrespectful? Isn't that kind of like, like, shouldn't it just be full submission? Right. But no, we're struggling with this. And I think it's like, you know, they say the struggle is real. That's like a phrase that you hear people say. But it is real. Israel. It is real. It is. Israel is. The struggle is real. The struggle of Israel. That's pretty good.

[Christian]

Well, I like it when a guy has not like that guy has a moment when the camera.

[Zach]

The struggle is real.

[Bella]

You can get our T shirts. The struggle is. The real struggle is.

[Christian]

If Jayce was here, this would be.

[Zach]

A T shirt moment, be a T shirt moment. But I think the reason why the multiplication comes. What you think of multiplication, you should think fruit. The fruit, fruitful multiplication. The fruit comes, the harvest comes through the struggle. Because the struggle actually puts us in the posture that we probably should be in all the time, which is, wait a second, I'm not sovereign. Yeah, like he's sovereign. And so when you think about your own lives, I don't know, to young guys, probably you have had experiences where you've like, I know I have. I'VE had several, like, existential crisis moments where I've thought, man, it's all coming down around me. And what's weird is I think you can go two different directions there. One, you can deny that or you can lean into that. And I've chose to lean into that. And if you go back, if I go back and examine my life, I think, man, those are actually the moments when I really felt the presence and the nearness of God more than any other time. But it was in that because it would all of my. All the. I guess the facade of my own self preservation was, like, stripped away. And you're like, I have nowhere else to go. Have y' all experienced that in your own life?

[Bella]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. And just thinking of, like, especially as I've learned, like, I think this happened when you learn more about anything, I think especially the Bible and life, at some point you get to the point that you're like, oh, everything I believe is wrong. And that's not really true. But you feel like that because you're like, oh, I didn't realize how little I knew about anything. I mean, I kind of feel like taking these courses. Honestly, I'm like, wow, I didn't realize how little I actually knew until I started researching. And I'm like, wow, there's way more to this whole thing. And you feel like I'm not enough or I don't know enough or how can I speak about this? But I think that's where God comes in. Like, you lean into that, you say, okay, I can be humble. I can step outside of myself and say, yeah, my power is weak, but God is strong.

[Lisa]

Yeah. And it's just a willingness to learn, you know, too. Like, there always has to be a willingness to put in the work, to study things, to learn things, to have conversations, and to also, you know, disagree with some things. And then you get to a better place versus, you know, I think sometimes disagreements can be super helpful to end up up, you know, landing the plane somewhere. But yeah, I think, I think, like you said, just humility and just a willingness to. Because even, you know, languages, like, yeah, you think you, you know a bunch of stuff. And then you realize that the original context that's written in. And then this word actually means this. And then somehow it got translated to mean this. And it's like, yeah, it's like, maybe the thing I've been learning is not actually.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

What the original context was supposed to mean.

[Christian]

And the core has to be, how can I then relay what God has taught me through whatever process I went through. Lisa and I, we do a lot of marriage stuff. And it's not because we're marriage experts, because we got a PhD and whatever. It's because we lived through some really hard stuff. And through those really tough times, God taught us some things that we now want to help teach other people. So when we go in and do what we do, it may be different from Mr. And Mrs. Jones over here that are counselors and have more of an intellectual approach. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's great because you learn stuff either way. Ours, though, is going to be much more. You've suffered, now go suffer some more because you're helping someone in that situation. So this past weekend, we were at a place and we got up and we shared what we always share and some of the things that God taught us through the process, through several presentations. And one of the ladies who was there who had helped organize the event was our kind of contact person. You know, at some point, she kind of pulls us aside and she's like, yeah, you know, my husband and I, we went through the same thing, and we've just never really been able to talk about it yet. And, you know, and she's telling me the story, and so she goes through the whole thing and she tears up as she's telling us. And then I looked at her and said, well, you know, you just told it for the first time. And it hit her that she had. She felt. She felt safe enough to tell us this because we had just shared it. And I said, you realize God's going to now open some doors. You're going to have to tell some other people, some people you work with, somebody you run across that's really hurting. And now all of a sudden, you've gotten the confidence because God's helping you deal with that. I said, so that's the way it is for all of us. We're enslaved to something, and when we're freed by Christ, then we have an opportunity to help other people find freedom. Unless you tell what God's victories are, you're never going to get to something better.

[Zach]

And it's always a process, too. It's a long obedience in the same direction to quote Nietzsche or Eugene Peterson, wherever you read that at. But I think it is long. And so for them, it was 40 years.

[Christian]

That's right.

[Zach]

I mean, think about it like that. Think about how that would sell. Today we're going to start a discipleship ministry. And, hey, you get to experience the Whole thing. It's a 40 year run.

[Christian]

In 40 years you get a free t shirt.

[Zach]

40 years you get the thing.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Everybody's like, I'm out. But it is a process of becoming. And I think that's the story of Exodus as we see here. It's like a drip. And we're just at the very first two chapters here. But it's how basically Moses arrives on the well one, it's how the Israelites are being persecuted and Pharaoh is like, I got to kill him. And then Moses kind of gets spared through this whole process and he's born in a really weird circumstance where his mother is able to ship him off in this little mini ark, so to speak. I love how he kind of made that, that correlation too. And the correlation.

[Lisa]

Oh yeah, that was really cool.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's like an ark. Because you think about like Noah, the ark, he saved humanity through the ark and that was like a little mini ark.

[Lisa]

That was a really cool point.

[Zach]

You got the Red Sea here with.

[Christian]

The sea of the reeds.

[Zach]

So you have all the repetition here. Moses gets pulled out and saved and he's now going to save others. He's going to be the deliverer of Israel. And that's just the first part of this. But once he leads them into the, the wilderness, I mean, you would think we got these crazy plagues about to happen, which anybody's going to be like, wow, who is this Yahweh, by the way? He hadn't told him anybody his name yet, but basically going to tell him their name. Then he does the whole Red Sea, which I thought if I was a member of the people that were exiting Egypt, I think at the Red Sea moment, I would have been like, he's got us.

[Christian]

I'm in, I'm in.

[Zach]

And they're not like that. They're like, we want to go back and be slaves. And I think I would be like that, but I wouldn't be like that. Right. Because that's the condition of humanity. Then you say, well, okay, now that we've gone through the Red Sea, I would think then I would be good. Well, no, then they had bread literally raining out of the sky. And God literally his provision, God's providing. And they're like, God says, just make sure you only take what you need. And they're so scared that God won't provide. This is insane. But this is who we are. They're so afraid that they start gathering up.

[Christian]

And more than what they're asking, more.

[Zach]

Than what they need. And God said, I'm giving you kind of like Moses, though. How many signs do you need? I think that's the point. It's not about the signs. In fact, when you get to the New Testament, Paul says that the Jews demand signs and the Gentiles demand intellect or intellectual reasoning. And he's like, I didn't come with either one of those. I came with Christ and him crucified. And he just narrowed it right down to the sacrificial nature of who this God is. By the way, if you want to sign up and take this class with us, you can go to. It's [e-mail] we're in the story of Exodus. This is the first two chapters, is the first lecture that we're talking about today. But, yeah, I think that's just interesting how that narrative is here. But the big. I think the story of Exodus is. What it's ultimately pointing us to is, will you have reliance on me? I am the one who provides. God is the one that provides. Ultimately, he provides even the. And having the atonement to allow us back into presence.

[Christian]

Yeah. And I think that all the different pictures you see, like we've talked about, you also see the idea of the. You mentioned Herod. So you got that whole thing in the Jesus narrative, the water that keeps coming up. He mentioned that, how the water's a big part of the narrative in the book of Exodus, because you got the Nile river, which is here, which is the sea of reeds, and this whole idea. But then you got. Later on. That's a big part of the plagues. It starts with the river and turns to blood. Later on, it's the Red Sea, and it's just this continual thing. And then when you get to the New Testament, Paul even looks back and says, oh, yeah, this was almost like a mass baptism when they were all walking through, because it had water on all sides.

[Zach]

It's a baptism moment.

[Christian]

It is. It is. Which is huge. Right. Because we understand that from our perspective. But here you're seeing where God is doing it with a whole millions of people.

[Zach]

Well, Noah was a Baptist. What does Peter use first?

[Lisa]

Peter.

[Zach]

Yeah, Noah, Flood as another kind of like early baptism. He says that the waters of baptism symbolize. How does he say it symbolizes?

[Christian]

The waters of salvation.

[Zach]

The waters that flooded the earth symbolize the water of baptism that now saves you. Also not the removal of dirt for the flesh, but a pledge of a good conscience.

[Christian]

Because he made the interesting point that the boat floated on the water We've always seen it the other way around. The water was drowning people, but he used the other side of that. You know, the boat couldn't have floated without the water.

[Lisa]

Interesting. Quick sidebar. Because, you know, people call Jesus. Well, obviously he's the second Adam, but don't people call Jesus, like, the second Moses? And that's the whole thing, right?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

Well, I just had this thought because he was talking about the betrothal scene at the well. He kind of correlated that with Isaac and Rebecca and, you know, throughout history. But I was thinking about it from the standpoint of John 4 with Jesus and the woman at the well, and kind of how that is. It's a betrothal scene in a sense of, you know, Jesus revealing himself to this woman at the well. But I was thinking, too, so Moses. So Moses is the first one that God reveals his name to, right? And then in the New Testament, Jesus, the woman at the well, is the first person that Jesus reveals himself as, the Messiah, too, which is. So I thought that was kind of interesting.

[Christian]

And it was Jacob's well. I mean, it was actually. It was one of these original wells from way back, which is interesting.

[Zach]

The location, I think it has to do with Exodus, because he doesn't really get into this part of Exodus, but Exodus 25, God gives Moses the instructions to build the tabernacle. And so there hasn't really been a temple structure yet that was more official like this, that just hasn't been instituted yet. So when you think about the tabernacle, which is a big chunk of the book at Exodus, is the building of the tabernacle. The tabernacle is like a mobile temple. So it's not quite the temple, because the temple that Solomon built was like a permanent structure. But this is like, they're in the wilderness, so there has to be, like, a temple. He said, why do you need a temple? Well, God tells us, and he tells Moses in Exodus 25:8, Build me a tabernacle so that I may dwell with my people. So you have the reason why God wants a temple or a tabernacle. He wants to dwell with his people. And he did dwell with his people in the Garden of Eden. But you know what else is a temple structure is Jacob's ladder and that whole area that Jacob was in. So I think, you see, I think that matters because if you think about the beginning, God saw man alone, and he said, it's not good for man to be alone. So he says, I'll create a suitable helper for him. So he creates Eve, and then they consummate their union, the sexual union, which results in the procreation of life itself. It actually turns into more life. So the picture is God or man and woman procreating, having children, relationship kind of mirroring the Trinity, mirroring who God is. And then they had that relationship horizontally with each other, but then they had that vertically with God and his presence. And you see all of that in the book of Exodus. Fruitful multiplication, the presence of God. And so that's ultimately what the enemy's trying to destroy. So when you get the New Testament to your point on Moses being second Christ or Christ being the second Moses, that's kind of the whole point of the book of Hebrews.

[Christian]

Yeah, Hebrews makes that point.

[Zach]

I mean, just like Christ, not necessarily a second Moses, like a better Moses.

[Christian]

That's why you see that word better used so much in Hebrew.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Because, you know, because what are the.

[Zach]

Other things that he's better at?

[Christian]

Oh, and then you got the covenant, the high priest, you know, all the different examples.

[Zach]

So Aaron was a high priest.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So he becomes a better high priest than Aaron ever thought about.

[Christian]

And we know.

[Zach]

He'S a priest in the order of Melchizedek. He's a better sacrifice. He's a better temple. He's. And. And so the whole book of Hebrews is, like, looking at the Exodus story and the giving of the law and the book of the covenant, and he's like, yeah, all that. That Christ superior. All of it. He's the fulfillment of all of it. Christ is the point of the whole thing. Christ is the point of the book of Exodus.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Christian]

We're out of time, Zach.

[Zach]

Are we? Really?

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Oh, wow. That was awesome.

[Bella]

Yeah.

[Zach]

All right, so again, yeah, if you guys want to take this course with us, it's unashamedforhellstel.com we're in the story of Exodus, the most important story in the whole Bible because we repeat it over and over again. And we are in the new Exodus. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhilsdale.com and sign up. Up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.