Ep 1186 | Willie Gets Snagged by TSA & Jase Bribes Willie’s Security Guard with a Fish Dinner

Summary

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Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode of Unashamed with the Robertson Family centers on stories of travel mishaps, family escapades, and spiritual lessons in the everyday. Al, Zach, and Jase share recent adventures – from Willie getting tangled in TSA security, to Jase negotiating with Willie's security guard over crappie – weaving in powerful discussions on biblical context, the nature of Christian leadership, and the deep symbolism in Jesus' trial in John 18. The conversation moves seamlessly between lighthearted family tales and substantive theology, particularly the biblical role of Christ as both Lion and Lamb, and what it means for believers “to reign in life.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Stories & “The Barter System”

• Willie's TSA Mishap ([02:39])
  Al recounts traveling using Willie's boarding pass by accident, revealing the quirks of modern airport security and family resemblance.

  "I went in under somebody else’s name… Here, I said, ‘Willie, I got your boarding pass.’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s what happened. They were sending your bags to Columbus, Ohio!’" – Al ([03:13])

• Jase Caught by Security ([04:59])
  Jase shares how he can't sneak onto Willie's property undetected due to security, but manages to “bribe” the guard with crappie for access.

  “Okay, here’s how this works. I give you a certain portion of said crappie to make this…” – Jase ([05:37])

• Bartering in Life & Relationships ([06:33])
  Jase notes the importance of relationships and the barter system in the South, relating it back to biblical “love your neighbor” principles.

• Mysterious Crappie Fish ([07:06])
  The group discusses why crappie are so hard to catch and jokes about asking God about it in the next life.

  “There are… a few questions. I need to figure out why they’re so mysterious.” – Jase ([07:06])

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2. Context is King: Bible Study & The Power of Metaphor

• Bible Metaphors and Context ([12:23]–[13:36])
  The crew deep-dives into how biblical metaphors (e.g., Ephesians 4’s “babes tossed to and fro”) only make sense in cultural context.

  “It’s all about context… Bible study: context is king.” – Al ([09:12])

• “Rabbit Holes” & Teaching Styles ([12:08])
  The group embraces their tendency for “contextual rabbit holes” as enriching, not distracting.

  “These are rabbit holes. Jack rabbits. Big, big rabbits.” – Zach ([12:23])

• The Danger of Lost Meaning in Translation ([12:26])
  Jase highlights the nuances that can be lost moving from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic to English.

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3. The Arrest of Jesus: John 18 Analysis

• Transition to the Serious – John 18 ([15:20]) The discussion dives into Jesus’ arrest, highlighting the irony of religious leaders missing the Messiah in their midst for the sake of power.

• Corruption of Religious Power ([18:19]–[20:19])
  Al researches Annas, the former high priest, portraying him as a “godfather”-like figure controlling temple economics, even when not in office.

  “He’s got this money laundering racket going on… These are supposedly your spiritual leaders… it was rotten.” – Al ([20:19])

• Jesus Confronts Brokenness and Abuse ([22:26])
  The group explores how Jesus entered a world defined by broken systems: justice, truth, love, and power all distorted. He is depicted as confronting not only Roman and Jewish power but betrayal and abandonment from his own friends.

  “He came to everything that's broken in our society… He's fixed to fix it. But not like anyone thinks.” – Jase ([24:57])

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4. The Lion and the Lamb: Revelation & Isaiah

• Jesus as Both King and Sacrifice ([25:17]–[28:43])
  Rich discussion comparing Jesus as “Lion of Judah” and “Lamb who was slain” using Revelation 5 and Isaiah 11.

  “Is he safe? No, he’s a lion. Are you kidding me? No, he’s not safe, but he’s good.” – Zach ([26:12])

• Imagery of a World Without Predators ([28:44])
  Jase connects Isaiah’s peaceable kingdom vision to what Jesus brings: a new order without exploitation or violence.

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5. Power, Corruption, and the Way of Christ

• Power & Corruption ([31:05])
  The group references Lord Acton – “absolute power corrupts absolutely” – contrasting the corrupt Jewish leadership with Jesus’ radically different, self-emptying demonstration of power.

  “He’s about to show you something so powerful, it’s going to blow your mind.” – Zach ([31:06])

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6. One Man for the People: Romans 5 & Hebrews

• Prophecy Unwittingly Fulfilled ([34:15])
  The high priest’s statement that “it would be good if one man died for the people” ([14:24], [34:15]) is “right, but he has no idea what he’s talking about.” – Zach

• Connection to Reigning in Life ([37:59])
  Jase explains Romans 5:17, noting believers don’t just receive life but “reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.”

  “He gave you the gift of righteousness so that you might reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.” – Jase ([41:35])

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7. Jesus as King and Priest

• Perfect Priest & King ([51:00])
  Hebrews is invoked to illustrate Jesus’ closing of the sacrificial system and establishment of full access to God.

  “Because that’s really what Hebrews is all about… why God became a human.” – Jase ([52:09])

• Freedom and True Reign ([53:09])
  Dallas Willard quote:

  “In Christ, you are free to do whatever you want. You can murder all you want in Christ, which will be none at all.” – Zach quoting Dallas Willard ([54:24])

• The Ongoing Battle ([54:47])
  The group acknowledges the walk of faith involves ongoing struggle, reaffirming the need for the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Al on the “godfather” of the Jewish leaders:
  “He’s kind of got this. The reason they took him there first…he’s the godfather of the Jewish leadership.” ([19:34])
• Jase’s theory on crappie:
  “If you have something that tastes that good, you have to give it an element of mystery…or you’d wipe them out.” ([07:06])
• Zach on Jesus’ true power:
  “He’s emptying himself… ultimate, otherworld power that he is bringing.” ([29:43])
• Jase on reigning in life:
  “Now, isn’t that an interesting thing...he gets to the end of that verse and…he did this by grace and gave you the gift of righteousness so that you might reign in life.” ([41:35])
• Zach quoting Dallas Willard:
  “In Christ, you are free to do whatever you want. You can murder all you want in Christ, which will be none at all.” ([54:24])
• Jase’s final reflection:
  “Well, I think that was good because I had a rabbit hole I wanted to go down.” ([54:47])

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Important Timestamps

• Willie’s TSA Surgery & Crappie Barter: [02:39]–[06:50]
• On Context & Biblical Metaphors: [09:00]–[13:36]
• Transition to John 18 & Religious Power: [15:20]–[22:26]
• Lion and the Lamb Discussion: [25:17]–[29:43]
• Corruption of Power/Way of Christ: [31:05]–[34:15]
• Romans 5: Reigning in Life & Kingdom Now: [37:59]–[43:00]
• Jesus as King/Priest & Hebrews: [51:00]–[54:24]
• Dallas Willard Quote & Closing Reflections: [54:24]–[end]

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Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, warm, and peppered with the Robertsons’ characteristic humor ("Jack rabbits. Big, big rabbits.") while diving into profound spiritual truths. The hosts use relatable analogies – from fishing and bartering to Sunday school "felt boards" – to illustrate their points, keeping the tone welcoming and practical for both long-time believers and curious newcomers.

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This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the episode’s rich mix of storytelling, practical wisdom, scriptural depth, and genuine faith—for anyone seeking both entertainment and enlightenment, whether or not they’ve listened to the episode.

Transcript

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[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Al]

Welcome back to Unashamed. I'm here in the Mountain Bunker. Is that what we call Mountain bunker?

[Zach]

Bunker.

[Al]

Mountain bunker. I kind of like that because it's got a. It's got a feel about it. Jason. Zach, he likes this kind of back room smoky look.

[Zach]

You know, where the deals are made.

[Al]

Yeah. Where the deals are. I feel like I'm like in a senate chamber where the senators sit down and make deals for the country or something. I don't know.

[Jace]

Oh, you're in North Carolina.

[Al]

I'm in North Carolina. I'm. I'm in between events, so I decided to stay. And just like you, I like to visit my cousins and. Yeah, you know, show some love. Just like you do when you honk on the way by on I40.

[Jace]

Well, if y' all are in the same place, why don't you just get together?

[Al]

We are in the same room. We're just across from each other.

[Zach]

Yeah, he. He did the same thing you did when you drove by. He just. His wave has lasted about a week.

[Al]

Instead of just stayed. I just stayed for a while. I like my. My Dasher cousins.

[Zach]

They're.

[Al]

They're all. They're good folks. They're good people. We've been doing a lot of stuff here. Last night, Jace, we got invited to Dr. Ashley, who is my PhD guru. It's a lot of pressure, you know, you get invited. Zach was all nervous because, you know, you. You got to eat the right. You know, you're worried about. Were you worried about food or. You were kind of nervous last night that you just.

[Zach]

I mean, you don't know what you're walking into, but. Right. I mean, it's kind of weird that of all the sponsors we've had that there's one that lives in Asheville, which we didn't know that when we started.

[Al]

Doing this, we met our family. Great people. Their house is beautiful. Everything was PhD friendly. So it was good for me, which we knew it would be.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

You know, if you go to the guru's house, you know. Yeah, they were good people. What about You, Jace, what'd you do on your off day?

[Jace]

Oh, I got back on those. Crappy. Lily's gone for three weeks, give or take a day or two. I think that he's checking in.

[Al]

Oh, he.

[Jace]

He.

[Al]

He was. I met. By the way, I met him, Jace, at the airport. I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast, but they gave me his boarding passes at the airport in Monroe.

[Jace]

And.

[Al]

But it's different now. Like, you know, you don't. You don't have to show your boarding pass anymore because they take your picture. And so I get back there and I look down at my boarding pass, and I was like, it was the wrong seat because I'd already looked at my seat. And I look up at the top, and it's Willie Jess Robertson.

[Jace]

Really?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jace]

Well, you know what that means, Al?

[Al]

That we look alike. Yeah, you're right. I guess we're all look the same to the girl out front. So then. So then I'm thinking, well, I guess Willie's on this flying. I look down and he's flying to Columbus, Ohio. And so here. Here, I said. I told BK was with me, my granddaughter. And she said, oh, you know, because he always tortures all my grandkids. You know, he says, bk you know, he does the little BK commercial. And I mean, she had just said it. And all of a sudden, from halfway across the airport, we hear, you know, here comes Willie. And I said, willie, I got your boarding pass. He said, oh, that's what happened. He said, they were sending your bags to Columbus, Ohio.

[Jace]

Oh, wow.

[Al]

And she realized it. She looked at the girl next to her when Willie walked up and said, willie Rogers. She went, oh, crap. She had messed up. And. But I never knew. That's what's so strange. You know, it's so, so funny, all this, you know, security and I went in under somebody else's name.

[Zach]

Yeah, they're on top of that.

[Al]

But they got it all worked out. But it was so funny because then Willie sits down to. To your point about him being gone. I'm sorry I hijacked your property story. But he. He tells me his next three weeks of travel. And I said, you know what, Willie? I certainly suddenly feel better about my travel.

[Zach]

I tried to rope him in, literally.

[Al]

Crisscrossing.

[Zach]

Yeah, I tried to rope him into something for next week. And he. And I went. He said. He tried to make it work, but he's like, the schedule is crazy. Which is funny. Jace, I was reading the comments on YouTube, which you tell Me to never do. But I did. And, and somebody said something like, zach acts like the boss until the real boss, Willie shows up. I said, I hope he never hears that.

[Jace]

You just can't.

[Al]

He would love that.

[Jace]

You got to read the comments that you can't help. No, I had a similar situation. I snuck over there. I had camouflage. I knew he's out of town. And I was over there about 10 seconds and I heard, jace, is that you from the bushes? I was like, yeah, who are you? Because I was on. I was only armed with a rod and reel.

[Al]

Was it his security guy?

[Jace]

Oh, security. I was like, so I maybe feel safe about the neighborhood. They ain't no sneaking up around on Willie stuff anymore, you know. So I got busted.

[Al]

But yeah, that, that guy's pretty good because he, he, he's always around.

[Jace]

I worked out a deal. I was like, okay, here's how this works. I give you a certain portion of said crappie to make this.

[Al]

So now you made a deal with the security guy. I love it.

[Jace]

Oh, we, we have the same issue. These, these our neighbors on our hunt land. It's like, you know, because they, they own a lot of land. So you're not good if you try to make some kind of deal with them. Contractually, it's kind of like grace versus the law. Yeah, it never works out. I mean, you pay it. We've done it before. You pay them. But if they feel like they're forced to respond, like, you know, pump me some water or, you know, we've leased our property before and it's just mayhem. Look, you give them a shotgun and some shells and cook them supper. Oh, they'll do anything you want to.

[Al]

Exactly.

[Jace]

I mean it's, it's just crazy.

[Zach]

It's the barter system.

[Al]

Yeah, it's the barter.

[Jace]

And it's like it's a relationship, neighbors barter system is you love your neighbor and all of a sudden they're rolling out the red carpet, try to give them a bunch and, and some kind of contract. Now you got trouble then.

[Al]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Jace]

So it's just crazy. In life you gotta be smarter.

[Al]

Love your neighbor as yourself.

[Jace]

Jesus said, God's truths always win.

[Al]

So you ate the crappie. That was good. Did you get some deeper? You got some deep rest?

[Jace]

Well, you know, I had. It was two or three month period. I couldn't catch them over and I thought, what in the world? I started questioning my ability, but figured it out again. You know, these, these crappie are mysterious. I cannot Wait to have that conversation in the next life, in the resurrected life, because there are. I do have a few questions. I need to figure out why they're so mysterious.

[Zach]

The crappie. That's one of your top five questions there.

[Jace]

That is top five questions. Do you have a problem with that? I think that's a great question. Why is the crappie? And now I have always thought it's because it's the best tasting fish that we have in our area. And so if you have something that tastes that good, you have to give a. Give it an element of mystery. Because if it was just too easy, you'd wipe them out. I mean, they just. They'll go two months, you can't catch one.

[Al]

I would say, Jason, our fishing pass, both commercial and just recreational, that most fish in our area are not very good to eat. I mean, is that. Would that be fair to say? There's only a few that are, like, really good.

[Jace]

Depends on when you had your last meal.

[Al]

That is true. But, you know, even, like, most catfish are kind of muddy.

[Zach]

I don't like them.

[Al]

They're not very good.

[Zach]

I'm not a big brim guy either, because the bones are. Too many bones in it. But they taste good. But there's a lot of bones.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

A lot of people like that. I know y' all love the brown.

[Jace]

I mean, well, the chinky pan.

[Al]

I mean, you got to get the.

[Jace]

Right away from that. That chinky pen. You. You've lost it. But like I say, it's all about context. You go to a duck blind, eat a can of sardines, it. It just. It's like tuna, you know, fresh. I mean, it's awesome, but.

[Al]

Or you like a hot biscuit and a duck line is like the best biscuit you've ever had.

[Zach]

It's like.

[Al]

It's so good. So it's all about context, but context is king. J. It's like the Bible study. Context is king.

[Zach]

Come on.

[Al]

Before we get into our Bible study today, I want to give a little shout out to some of our good friends at Family Research Council.

[Zach]

You know, it's become counterculture to defend families and family values, but when it comes to upholding God's truth in this culture, Tony Perkins, our friend over at Family Research Council, they're always on the front lines, and I want to encourage you to check out everything they're doing on the website, and you can give that FRC.org unashamed.

[Al]

And these guys have been. Man, you talk about our representatives, Zach and D.C. they've been there for many many years. Tony's a wonderful guy. So we just want you to think about helping these guys out. If you want to donate to what they're doing or check them out, go to FRC.org unashamed great guys. So Jace, we've been hanging out in John 18. We kind of took some rabbit hole tours the last two podcasts thanks to you as but now we're back and.

[Zach]

Good rabbit holes though.

[Al]

Yeah good rabbit holes.

[Jace]

You're reading the comment Zach, what do they say about the rabbit holes?

[Zach]

I think the people like the rabbit holes.

[Al]

I think people everybody that visited at Zach's church so anywhere podcast listeners from several hours away they drove here because Lisa and I were sharing Sunday and every one of them Zach said we love Jace's rabbit hole. 2025 Jace has been a good year for me because as you know I was 60 pounds by 60. I not only lost that 60 pounds but I would lost 70 pounds and feel healthy, feel great.

[Jace]

And now you could actually go hiking now.

[Al]

I did. We were in Oregon and about four and a half miles, 800ft taller than the tallest point, Louisiana. I never would have made that hill last year but I did it this year so I'm definitely doing better. A good friends at PhD weight loss Dr. Ashley Lucas is the reason that I've been able to lose this weight. They created a great plan making weight loss simple and sustainable. That's what I love about it. You don't have any pills, you don't have any shots or injections. The feeling bad. I mean I tried all these different things before and they didn't work and they didn't help me. And here's a picture of me at at the beginning of the journey. And now here I am Some almost 40 weeks later, 70 pounds lighter and feeling great. My meds are almost completely gone. I don't use a CPAP machine anymore which is that's a ball and chain that's gone. So I just a lot of really good things I'm not, I'm not hungry because this is a protein rich diet. You need to jump in and get started. I'm telling you it's a change you need to make. Join me on my weight loss journey. You can schedule your one on one consultation today by calling 864-644-1900 or you can visit my PhD weight loss dot com. Give them a call 864-644-1900 tell them that Al sent you.

[Zach]

Well the rabbit holes are not, I mean they are contextual rabbit holes.

[Al]

Yeah, they're in what we're talking.

[Zach]

Like, it's not like we're getting off on something that's not. I mean, it's. It's just. We're another word for it. We're just getting deep in the scripture, deep in the world.

[Al]

Let somebody call them Jason. Bunny trails.

[Jace]

Money bunny trails.

[Zach]

These are rabbit holes. Jack rabbits. Big, big rabbits.

[Jace]

We're not from Israel. They use different languages. When you start talking about Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, then you have a translation. Sometimes what he was writing in that specific time gets lost in English translation. You go back and read where the whole idea came from, and there's just so many metaphors used and illustrations. I mean, like, one I always found crazy was that 1 in Ephesians 4 where he's talking about the church, and all of a sudden he uses that illustration like, you'll no longer be babes tossed to and fro. All of a sudden you're in a ship, you know, and there's a storm and there's babies on the ship, and you're like, wait, what? You know, it's just such a crazy illustration in the middle of talking about the role of the church and how God set it up. So, you know, I'm sure. Whatever. I mean, that illustration probably landed a little easier if you go see the Sea of Galilee out there and they're all picturing that.

[Al]

I thought the same thing about Galatians 4, where he does the Hagar and Sarah illustration, but he flips it around. I mean, to a Jewish audience, they would totally understand that.

[Zach]

Probably be offensive.

[Al]

But, yeah, for us, it was like.

[Zach]

Because he was like, yeah, it's basically was saying to the Israel, your Hagar.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Which they're like, no, no, no, no.

[Al]

Exactly.

[Zach]

Now we're on the other side of the.

[Al]

And when you go back and study that in the. You know, the way it actually laid out, you don't get that. But.

[Zach]

But that's a brilliant argument.

[Jace]

And.

[Zach]

And I think that, you know, that it's also a great point. But when he uses that imagery in Ephesians 4. But we all kind of do know what that's like. A little bit you feel like you got whiplash in your spiritual life. It's like, man, I'm in. I'm over here, and I'm all in for God, for. In the. In the moment, and then the next moment I'm not. And, I mean, I remember feeling that way as a young Christian, for sure. Like, I felt like I was on a boat being tossed back and forth. And it was very difficult to. To really think about a real transformed life. But years later, I know what that means now.

[Jace]

You know what I mean?

[Al]

You're not necessarily at the mercy of the ways. He's kind of just what he describes in Romans 7 about himself, you know, when he's given you that picture of kind of, you know, from his own perspective, when you try to work it out on your own versus, you know.

[Zach]

Well, the, the. When we were talking in the last podcast where this tied in was coming out of this. Jesus giving us an introduction to the Holy Spirit and what his role is going to be, what he's going to do for us and how he's going to guide us into all truth. And he's going to. He's going to transform us through the. You were transformed through the Spirit. And so that Ephesians 4 passage I think we were talking about like this, the devil believe his own lies, that kind of came into the discussion.

[Al]

Well, we kind of. In the rabbit hole was verse 11, which is where we pick up today, 1811, when Jesus tells Peter to put your sword away. You know, we're at this scene where he's about to be arrested. And then Jace brought up the idea and it was a good rabbit hole. J, shall I not drink the cup? And so we talked about that idea of what that cup is. And that led us into the discussion of the Evil One's role in what happened to Jesus and just let us down.

[Zach]

And so part of that cup is the wrath of God, but the wrath, part of that wrath, and maybe I'd say a huge part of that wrath is God giving us over to ourselves, giving us over to do what ought not to be done. And the Ephesians 4 is that we actually read this that says, don't live like the Gentiles who in futility of their minds, they are darkened in their minds, they're darkening their understanding. Alienated from the life of God. So that is the wrath is that you're alienated from the life of God. And the reason why, according to the Apostle Paul, is because of the ignorance that is in them. And the reason why they are ignorant is due to the hardness of their heart. They have become calloused and given themselves up to sensuality. Greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned in Christ, assuming that you have heard about him and you were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self. So this is like Holy Spirit language too, because that's the whole point of Romans chapter 8 is it's by the Spirit we put to death the misdeeds of the body. It's the whole dying to yourself, being buried with Christ, being resurrected with him, you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2, and then it says, which belong the old man belongs to the former manner of your life, and is corrupt through deceitful desires. And so the call is to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. So it seems to be that the judgment of God, at least in a big part, is to leave you over to yourself, and that the grace of God is to invite you in to participate in what you're actually created to be, which is an image bearer of God.

[Al]

And I like the way both y' all tied that in the last podcast from Psalm 2 and Psalm 22. Yeah, from the idea. You know that idea. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? The forsaken nature of being outside a relationship with Christ. But then in those contexts, you see, the relationship has always been possible.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

Even way back then. But it's all culminating now, what Jesus is about to do. And it is ironic you. You read that description, Zach, and. And I did a little bit of a dive into this Annas, because I'll go ahead and read 12 through 14 because that's the next section that it's just kind of the first time now he's going to be before the Jewish officials. Verse 12 says the detachment of soldiers with its commander. Remember we talked about this is like with the. When you throw in all the Jewish officials and everybody there, we're talking about five or six hundred people.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

It's a big mob. So they arrest Jesus. They. They bound him, which. Think about that. Why would you do that? This is all for show. I mean, you know, Jesus has volunteered to go with them. He didn't need to be bound, but they bound him and they brought him to Annas, who was the father in law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. So now this guy has no. Like, Annis is not even official in power. But that's where they took him first. And then John gives a little parenthetical thought in verse 14, says Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people. And that was back, remember in John 11, after Lazarus was raised and they were arguing about it, and he prophesied Actually, that, that this, this truth was going to happen. But I want to mention this guy Annas, because I did a little bit of a look into him and he was the high priest from A.D. 6 to 15. So he hadn't been the high priest now for a while, but you can tell he's kind of got this. The reason they took him there first, I think, I mean, the Bible doesn't tell us is he's like the godfather of the Jewish leadership.

[Zach]

He's like the, what do they call it? The pastor emeritus. He's like the guy that.

[Al]

He's the high priest.

[Zach]

Yeah. He founded the church kind of thing. Yeah. But now he's not. Right. He's not the pulpit preacher, but he's the guy.

[Al]

Because think about it, you don't even go to the high priest and the Sadducees and the council first. You go to this guy's house. So it tells you right there, it tells you right there the sort of control this guy has. And the more I looked into him, so someone from his family because his son took over from him. And then the son in law is the guy now. But all the way up until almost A.D. 70, somebody from this family was a high priest. And here, here was the deal they had. You remember when Jesus goes in and dumps the temple because of all that, the den of robbers, that's this guy.

[Zach]

They cornered, the one making the money off of it.

[Al]

They cornered the market on the animals. And guess what? They're in charge of the priesthood, who decides which animals get sacrificed. So he's got this money laundering racket going on. So when you were reading that a minute ago out of Romans, I thought that's who was running things in the name of God. These are supposedly your spiritual leaders. And so, but they just got a racket going on and Jesus pops up right in the middle of it, the son of God who's come to save the world. And these are the sort of people that are, that are thinking they're going to decide his fate. I just, the more I got into it, Jase, I saw this, this den of robbers idea and the evil one's influence and it was rotten. I mean, it was a rotten system.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

Well, I think in the past couple podcasts, we both said when we read, when you get to John 18, all of a sudden you feel kind of weird and you're wondering why. And I think it kind of was revealed to me, you know, whether the Holy Spirit or just reading it over and over on why. Because you think about all the things Jesus has been representing, like freedom. I mean, you remember the John 8 when he's. When he's like, you're slaves. You belong to your father, the devil. And here's Jesus trying to liberate people at every turn in various ways, whether it be physical conditions or demonic issues. And. But when you think about truth, I mean, truth is fixed to be sneered at. When you think about love, that he's representing even Jesus's closest followers. I mean, you have Judas betraying him, but you're fixing to have Peter deny him, and you have the rest of the crew basically run from him. You know, they. They just leave him. And so he comes into that world. I mean, when you just said here's Jesus and think about the justice he's representing and the injustice that's happening to him. And I think that says something about God here in this, that because we, we tend. I've Heard Zach say many times, most people view God as something you're climbing towards. And here's God coming to everything that's broken in our society. You know, power. I mean, just think of all the people in power that he's fixing to have conversations with. So you see the abuse of power. It's like all the things that he is representing, he came to where they're really broken in his life. And I think that says something about this. You know, the reason God chose to do it this way. It's like, now he's fixed to fix it. But it's not like anyone thinks, because you just had this scene of Peter getting the sword out. And he's like, no, that's why I thought of another metaphor that's used, like, when you read. I think it's in. Where's that it at? About the lion and the lamb.

[Zach]

Revelation.

[Jace]

Revelation 5. You know, because here's the. Jesus is acting like a sacrificial lamb. He's like, no, we're not going to use weapons. But he came from. Known as the. This royalty line. And so from which tribe was that?

[Al]

Judah.

[Zach]

Judah.

[Jace]

Yeah, from Judah. And so you see this picture of he's a sacrificial lamb, but he's also this king. He came.

[Zach]

Well, the lamb is standing up, too. It's like the lamb that had been slain. But the lamb was standing. But he says, behold. Basically, John is like, weeping over the fact that nobody's worthy to open the scroll. But that's the whole dilemma. Like, oh, my goodness, nobody's worthy to open the scroll. I started to weep. And then the instruction was, well, hold on a second. Behold the lion from the tribe of Judah. He is worthy to open the scroll. And then when John turns. This is a pretty powerful moment, he turns to behold this lion, which every time I read that passage, I think of Aslan from Narnia. And there's that line in Narnia where it's like, is he safe? And he's like, no, he's a lion. Are you kidding me? No, he's not safe, but he's good.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So you get that picture of like, the. And even. Even John's on the Isle of Patmos. Even his first encounter with Jesus was terrifying. It's terrifying.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

It's not like lampetting Jesus. We're not talking about this. So important.

[Al]

That's why you see all those pictures that people have created through the years of angels, and they're kind of this, you know, smiley face, soft, androgynous, but Everything in the Bible they're like terrified like.

[Zach]

And so like Jesus is like, you know, I grew up in Sunday school and all the pictures that I had on the felt boards, you know, ye, our little things we would draw, they were all like nice Jesus. They were Jesus petting a lamb or they were Jesus with the kids around him. Never saw a picture of the one in Revelation chapter one, the one with the fiery eyes, the one with the white woolly hair, the one with the double edged sword protruding from his mouth, the one with the, the bronze thighs. I mean that guy, the one whose voice was like that of rushing waters. So that's the picture. When you think of that lion, you think this is a fierce unsafe presence. But when John turns to see the lion, he sees the lamb that looked as though it had been slain, but he was standing.

[Jace]

Shall we read that? I think we should read that. So that's Revelation 5, 6, 5, 5 and 6 where it says, then one of the elders said to me, do not weep. See the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and the seals. Then I saw a lamb looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne. And I think that was predicted. And I looked this up while y' all were talking. Then Isaiah 11, I think this is interesting. Isaiah 11:1 says, A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse from his roots, a branch will bear fruit. Sound familiar? John 15, I am the branch or the vine, remain in me. Remember that the spirit of the Lord will rest on him. Now we're back to John 14:16 again. The Spirit of counsel and of power, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. He will delight in the Lord. And when you skip down to verse five, righteousness will be his belt, and faithfulness, the sash around his waist. I mean these, these are the weapons that he bring. Doing what's right and being faithful to his Father.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And then it says, verse 6, the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together. And you're like, wait, what, what is this saying? And I think Jesus being referred to as the lion and the lamb shows you that he's trying to come into a world that's broken, where there's predators that ever turn and he's literally taking them on even from within his core group. Being betrayed, being alienated, being denied. And now he has the all these abuse of power from religious leaders. You got Pilate, you know, remember the conversation about power and truth? And he's being lied about, lied to, and, and he's basically trying to fix that problem from those. The abuse of powers in our world. You know, just think of a world with no predators is what Isaiah's kind of giving you.

[Zach]

But the way he's doing it is, is what is the part that's so mind boggling because the way he's taking on power is he's emptying himself. So it's like the ultimate power. It's like, wait a second, there's some other kind of like ultimate, other, earthly, otherworld power that he is bringing. And you're seeing it here like he's going into. This reminds me of the Lord Acton quote which y' all probably heard before that says the power tends to corrupt and then absolute power corrupts absolutely. And so it's the idea that hidden in the human nature, post fall, post sin, is that the more you consolidate power, it just corrupts humans. It just does. It's the nature of it. And so the power tends to corrupt and then absolute power corrupts absolutely. Meaning that the more centralized, the more power centers in a person, the more corrupt they become. And we can't handle it. We just can't. And so what's happening here with these two former high priests and the current high priest, they're holding on to their power. That is the thing their agenda is. We have built this system. We've passed this down for generations. Our family name, we control the entire economic apparatus because we control the temple.

[Al]

And we'll kill whoever we have to.

[Zach]

And we'll kill whoever we have to that comes in. And so as Jesus comes in, like, if I was going to fight that battle or you were going to fight that battle, here would be my plan. Let's go. I'm like, I'm with Peter. I'm like, okay, let's go. They knew the corruption, but their answer, Peter's answer to it was, we're going to go in there and we're going to defeat them with the same type of power they have. And Christ is like, no, no, no, you don't understand. I'm about to show you something that's so powerful that this is going to blow your mind. So one of the biggest blessings of our lives has been our connection with the continent of Africa through a lot of different ministries that we've been a part of over the years. And we'd love to have you join us on a new mission tomorrow. Clubs is reaching kids in Tough places like the Binga district of Zimbabwe, where other ministries really aren't working. Binga is one of the most underdeveloped, isolated areas in Zimbabwe. The roads are rough, the food insecurity. It's a real deal there. And in a typical village, you might find a thousand kids in maybe one church. The problem is that these churches don't have the tools to reach and disciple these kids. So Tomorrow Clubs steps in by giving local churches the training resources to pour into the next generation of children. Can you imagine the impact that these children can meet Jesus for the first time? The generational impact that we could see in this area of Zimbabwe? Right now, over 5,000 kids in 44 Binga area villages are actually a part of a Tomorrow Club. But the door is wide open. So 40 more villages and 5,000 more kids could be reached by the end of the year. We're asking the unashamed audience to help us make this happen. It takes about $2,000 to launch a Tomorrow Club in a new community. And that covers discipleship materials, life skills, leader training, and year of support. So whether you support an entire community with a $2,000 gift or contribute any amount, you can be part of this opportunity to transform families, churches, and entire communities. To join the Bing of Blitz Reaching the next generation for Christ and Bingham, visit TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed that's TomorrowClubs.org UnashamEd.

[Al]

To prove your point. Z they the. The. To show you how corrupt they are. Pilot's going to say this later. They could have stoned Jesus. They had the power to do that within their own framework, but they didn't do it. And the reason why, I remember every time was because they were afraid of the people. They were. They didn't want to look bad by stone. And Jesus because they realized he hadn't done anything wrong. So that's the whole appeal to get the Romans to do it is so they can blame it on the Romans. I mean, these people are conniving. And I just think about how offensive it must have been to Jesus and to the Father and to the Spirit that this. These were the people that you put in place to bring about the Messiah. And now you get here and they're the worst possible people. And I think it's why we're so offended when we see things happen under the banner of Christianity in churches or some pastor or somebody else, because we're like, we should be the ones who are showing people something better.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

And not the people who are just as corrupt as Everybody else.

[Zach]

What does Yalls translation say on verse 14? Does it say expedient? It would be expedient that one man should die for the people.

[Al]

It says. Iris says it would be good if one man died for the people.

[Zach]

That's such an interesting point there because he is actually kind of right, but he has no idea what he's talking about. And I think that's what Christ is bringing. And I think where this intersects with this whole teaching on the Holy Spirit that Jesus just gave us is that we get so outraged by everything. I feel like this is like an issue in our culture right now, this outrage culture. And we think, we actually think that somebody's going to take down the kingdom of God and they're just not. I mean, the whole thing that in the Revelation 5 passage, you know what was in that scroll that John was weeping at that couldn't be opened. It was the consummation of the kingdom. That's what was in the scroll. It was the full redemptive plan. And he was weeping and weeping because it was like, man, we've come this far and now we can't quite cross over to the end because he's looking around and nobody's worthy to open the scroll to get the final plan, the final consummation of God's redemptive plan. And then he realizes in that moment that there is one that is worthy. That's why they sing a new song. And so I think this is key because the Spirit will preserve his church and we don't have anything to fear in this. And he's going to do it through this self sacrificial love. And in the end, wasn't it interesting that it was good that one man would die for the people? Yeah, it's very good.

[Al]

Right?

[Zach]

We're talking about it right here. Saved by the one man who died for all people. Like we're saved by that one man. And. And these guys had no clue what they were actually doing and saying.

[Al]

Exactly. And you remember he said that back in John 11 in response to the people saying, well, the Romans are going to come and take away our, our place, our nation and our temple unless we do something about this Jesus. And that's when he made that quote. And boy, was he ever right. Not only was he right about Jesus, he was also right about that temple was not going to be there. Give it about 40 years and this whole thing's going to turn upside down.

[Jace]

Well, there's so many things I want to respond to that because you know, when you read that Isaiah 11, we can't get our minds around that somehow you could have a world without predators. Because that's kind of the point. I mean, right? Reminding me of the preacher joke that, you know, read Isaiah 11 and was like some zoo. They said, we figured out, you know, we have an exhibit where there's actually a lion. And, you know, Isaiah 11 says Wolf, I think is the correct. You know, a wolf and a lamb lying together. But the only problem was every day they have to get a new lamb. That's why it's hard for us to wrap our head around that. But you think about what Jesus is bringing. He's trying to. To defeat the powers that are contributing to these. These kind of conflicts, the abuse of power, the injustice, the, you know, the lies, the Trying to take people captive. I mean, because you got to remember, that's why I brought this up. It kind of hit me. Jesus is being arrested here. He's just lost his freedom. Here's the son of God coming to liberate you from sin and death and yourself and all kind of abuse of power and injustice. And. And we're literally as humans, arresting him and taking away his freedom. You would think you need to give this guy as much room as possible to help the planet.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And then his followers are deserting him and they're denying him, and you're saying all the bad things that he is having to drink, getting back to this cup of wrath and suffer. But to your point about the. The one man, you know, Romans 5. I want to read this. Romans 5:6 says, you see it just the right time. When we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for righteous men, though for a good man, someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his love for us while we were still sinners. Christ died for us. But I noticed something because I wanted to get to that, what Zach said about the kingdom being here. I noticed something last night in reading this. Romans 5, I had never noticed before, and I wanted to set it up with that. And then when you get to verse 12, he says, therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way, death came to all men because of all sin. For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. Even those who did not sin by breaking the command, as did Adam, who was a pattern to the one to come. So he makes this whole idea about, you know, Adam's mistake led to a chain reaction where people repeat the process and sin and death, death into the world. But then when he gives to Jesus the one man. Watch how this works. But sin in verse 15 of chapter 5 of Romans. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many? Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man sin. The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation. But the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. And then here's the verse I want to get to verse 17. This is what I never had noticed before. For if by the trespass of the one man, death reign through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and the gift of righteousness? You would expect for him just to, say, live. If death reigned over there, how much more will they live? But look what it says. Reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. And there's your picture of this kingdom coming. Now isn't that an interesting thing where he goes back and like, look at all the sin and death. Here comes Jesus. He's going to defeat that. And then he gets to the end of that verse and you're like, oh, he brought life, like one day. And he's like, oh, no, he did this by his grace and gave you the gift of righteousness so that you might reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. There, there's your lion that, that he, you know, members of the kingdom, we're now reigning in this life because of what Jesus did. I thought that was fascinating.

[Al]

You mentioned when you read Isaiah 5, remember it said the root of Jesse.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Al]

And the branch of Jesse. And then when Zach read Revelation 5, it said the root of David. So the idea there about this kingdom has always been there. David was the first king, true king, because Saul wasn't picked by God, he was picked by the people. David was picked by God. And he made an eternal covenant with David that someone from his house. And think about it. Is there any bigger lion that ever lived than King David? I mean, he, he, he was such a warrior and he was so fierce that God wouldn't even let him build a temple. He said, you get too much blood on your hand. So this idea has always been there about reigning and king. And I love the callbacks that you get when you read the New Testament and you even read Revelation, it's always gone back. I said, this is what I have for you. But the eternal king is coming.

[Zach]

Yeah, two things. The, the whole Bible begins with be fruitful, multiply and then basically reign. Subdue the earth and have dominion over it. That's, that's Genesis, chapter one, Revelation 22 says that we will be reigning in the new heaven and a new earth. I mean, so it's dominion realized in the end. So that's always there. And the second thing, and this is a little bit deeper, but when you were reading that out of Romans 5, I kept thinking, man, isn't that the whole book of Hebrews? Right, the whole book of Hebrews.

[Al]

So, Jason, our dad was famous for saying that. He was a low tech man in a high tech world, was he not?

[Jace]

He always had a vision. He said, I would love to see before any power lines or anything. He just wanted to view the earth in its natural state because he loved that. He loved the wildness of the land. It was something he was obsessed about and really wanted to preserve. And he passed that on to us.

[Al]

He did. And you know, one of the things I love about it, duck stamps, were always, you know, you literally, back in the day, you had to go to the post office, you know, to buy one because there was a federal duck stamp. And now because of technology, you can buy your duck stamp online in less than two minutes. It drops right into your Apple or Google wallet. And it even works when you're offline, which is amazing. This is a world dad would never have recognized. The younger generation of hunters figured it out a lot faster than the old guys like us Jays. Having it digital means you don't have to stress about losing your paper version in your truck somewhere, somewhere in your hunting bag. So you don't wait until you're halfway to the blind to remember, go ahead and take care of it now.

[Jace]

@Duck stamp.com you can trace this all the way back to Genesis 9. And keeping the land wild and animals within their habitat was something that not only God was interested in, but we.

[Al]

Have a responsibility to do digital and physical. They got both. @duck stamp.com unashamed. It's easy. Makes a big difference. That's duck stamp.com unashamed. Get yours today.

[Jace]

Well, that's where I wanted to go. Because he's not only a king, which I think we've missed in a lot of churches, like, like that Romans 5. Nobody's thinking that. I, I mean, I don't Ever remember hearing a sermon, Al, about us reigning now? No. Because you Remember in Revelation 5, he goes on to say that we're reigning on the Earth.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And people are like, oh, well, that's a future. That's a futuristic thing. Or is Romans 5 a futuristic thing? He gets to the future in Romans 8, but in Romans 5, we are.

[Zach]

Raining in the future, but we're also reigning now.

[Jace]

I don't know how anyone could. Romans 5, 17. I don't know how there's any other plausible explanation.

[Zach]

Well, here's a. A good connection point, I think, with the cup that he asked that he would not participate in the cup of Wrath. I think this is so key, and I'm not saying it's only this, but I am saying it is largely part of this. Largely this. So when you look at the argument from the Hebrew writer, what was his argument about? The sacrifice of the blood of goats and bulls. The problem, he said, is that with the current sacrificial system of the high priest having to clean himself up, go in there, make the sacrifices year after. You can almost hear it in the language. Like, I mean, it's over and over. Kind of like what you ritual. It doesn't end like you put the. You take the wolf and you put the lamb in there. What's the problem? Every morning you wake up to your point, Jason, you got to put new lamb in there over and over. And it's just like, yeah, it was.

[Jace]

A joke, but it was a joke with a very sober reminder of our world.

[Zach]

Yeah. And our experience as humans. We, like, we know this to be true. So even if you're not a Jew and you're reading the book of Hebrews, you're kind of like, yeah, is there any way that we could possibly have, like, a final solution? And that's why he says in Hebrews chapter nine that he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by the means of his own blood, which is what we're moving towards in the cross here, thus securing an eternal redemption. Like, this is the final thing here. And so as he goes on in the next chapter of Hebrews, this is so interesting, he makes the point because of this. He says, Verse 35 of chapter 10, we don't throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. And he ends Hebrews 10:39 with this. We are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but we are of those who have faith and persevere. So you get this idea of something brewing here in the cross of Calvary that is enabling us to have confidence. Well, how does that happen? Well, that's what Peter says in 1 Peter 3. He says that we come to Christ for an appeal of a good I want a good conscience, but my conscience is actually dirty. And so this is part. This goes right back to Colossians Chapter one says this, that when it says that we're enemies, it says, and once you were alienated and hostile in your mind. So we are enemies in our mind because of sin. I can't approach Christ with a clean conscience. I'm an enemy in my mind. And what Jesus is doing is ultimately one. Yes, he's paying for the sin on his side and appeasing his own wrath, but he's also there is no possible way that I can come to him because of sin. I'm an enemy in my own mind, and so I'm being reconciled while I'm an actual enemy. According to Roman, there's the same Greek word in Romans 5 that's in Colossians 1, the same exact word when it says here that while we were in. If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, how much more now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved in his life? More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now receive reconciliation. So what's happening at the cross is it is a payment for our sin, but it's also an appeasing of our own guilt and our own consciousness, our own conscience that enables us now to I can go before this Holy God and I'm not going to just collapse in his presence, because now I can hide in a rock that is Christ. And that my confidence is not in my own ability anymore. It's in. It's in the finished work of Christ.

[Al]

And we even know the how, because the Holy Spirit is the how. That's how it happens.

[Zach]

What? Isn't that what he says in Ephesians chapter?

[Al]

Exactly what we were just talking about Ephesians 4, the cleansing. The cleansing happens.

[Zach]

Then the renewal of the mind happens through the work of the Spirit. So that. And that's. And that is somewhat of a lifetime, because the devil still accuses me of stuff. But you read that passage in Ephesians 4 again. He says that we are to be renewed. Our deceitful desires are to be renewed in the spirit of your mind and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God in the true righteousness of holiness. That's what it means to be led by the Holy Spirit is you're putting to death the message of the body, the things that would cause you to not want to come before.

[Al]

And, you know, the struggle is still there because Paul used words like don't grieve the Holy Spirit, don't quench the Holy Spirit. I mean, there are ways in which you. You are not. If you get out of whack, you're not following the lead of what Christ has put into your mind and heart. I mean, it happens.

[Zach]

Right?

[Al]

And so you see that idea, this is. That's why it's a lifetime of us reigning, as Jay's pointed out in Romans 5, which is really good.

[Jace]

Well, I was bringing up the idea he's king and priests. And glad Zach went to Hebrews, because that, that part of going back to the conversation, Jesus is actually having this conversation with the high priests, which their job. If you go back to the Old Testament, it's kind of summed up in what Zach read. I mean, he just picked a couple of verses out of there, you know, in Hebrews 9. But that's all over the book of Hebrews. I mean, it starts off talking in Hebrews 2, because I think we don't want to miss the actual context. That's why Jesus, he came into the brokenness of the system of the world.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jace]

From false religion, abuse of power. You know, all the things we've listed here of captivating people for selfish gains. I mean.

[Al]

Yep.

[Jace]

Where's the love at in all this? And. And that's why I said that. I think that's what's so powerful about God coming down and experience the suffering and the brokenness, you know, to fix it. Because that's really what Hebrews is all about. When you go back and read what led to Hebrews 9, what Zach read, which is very powerful when he. When he said in chapter two and verse. Verse nine. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, you know, becoming a man, now crowned with glory. Well, there. There's that king language again. Crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death. And you could make those two different things. He suffered and he suffered death so that by the grace of God.

[Zach]

He.

[Jace]

Might taste death for everyone. And then in verse 11 is where really the power of this is where it says both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. And that's where you get the idea of this, why God became a human. And you know, the verse in between Says that the author of their salvation, you know, he made perfect. He was made perfect through suffering. So then when you get to 14 and he talks about since, since humanity has flesh and blood, the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is the devil, and free those who were held captive. It's all these principles of life that makes life great, that he was going to experience, suffer in, and then redeem.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And death should be understood as more than just like my heart stops beating. Death is a, it's a. It's a state of being which is actually to be separated from the very source of life. So it's to eat the fruit in the garden. It was just eat the fruit for the sake of the fruit. So what you have in the transformation here that comes through Christ and then the Spirit in us, and this is what Hebrews, I think ultimately we'll get to at the end of Hebrews, is that you're actually. Because our king in our priest is a good. He's a final solution on the priesthood. He's a perfect priest. He's a. He's a perfect king. He's a good king. Then we can actually experience for the very first time freedom. And so Dallas Willard says this in one of his books. I think it's like such a great quote. He says, in Christ, you are free to do whatever you want. You can murder all you want in Christ, which will be none at all. And so that's the idea, right? If we're in Christ and our desires, those, those deceitful desires actually get transformed and then what I want is actually what he wants. And so if my, if my, my desire is in line with Christ and that is actually what true freedom is, is to be able to do whatever you want and then to have whatever you want to be what is ultimately life giving, which is Christ himself.

[Al]

Yeah. And I think these next, next two chapters show us that clearly the difference between the high priest, also king, because you got Herod in there, the Tetrarch, and then you got Pilate, who was the Roman person in charge, versus what Jesus is there to do. So I think the contrast is going to be something for us to look at as we go along. We're out of time. That, that seemed to go by fast to me, but.

[Jace]

Well, I think that was good because I had a rabbit hole I wanted to go down.

[Al]

So save that rabbit hole, Joe. Save that rabbit hole. For next time on Unashamed thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.