Ep 1200 | Willie Begs for Help with an Embarrassing Problem & Jase Leads a Classic-Rock Choir

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1200 | Willie Begs for Help with an Embarrassing Problem & Jase Leads a Classic-Rock Choir
Date: November 3, 2025

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Overview

This episode blends Robertson-style storytelling, family shenanigans, and deep biblical exploration. The crew—Jay, Jace, Zach, and guest appearances by Willie—mix tales of pond disputes and pest control with spiritual discussions, focusing on the symbolism of the Passover, Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice, and drawing vivid connections between the Old and New Testaments. Amid the biblical depth, listeners are treated to classic tales and a memorable moment where a recovery meeting transforms into a Tom Petty singalong.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Robertson Family Antics & Willie's "Embarrassing Problem"

• Duck Hunt and Family Reciprocity
  The cast opens with lighthearted banter about Zach “weaseling” his way into a duck hunt, leading to playful accusations and reminders about past family favors.
  [00:11-01:46]
  • Quote (Jay): “My relationships are not work based, performance based relationships.” (01:46)
• Willie’s Rat/Beaver Problem
  Jay describes Willie's struggle with destructive animals (beavers, nutria, muskrat) on his property. There’s a tongue-in-cheek recount of Jay being asked to “take care” of it due to his “skill set,” leading to a covert pond operation involving his grandson, “little man,” as the unlikely accomplice. [05:36-09:34]
  • Quote (Jay): “I have turned a three and a half year old boy into the greatest bag man ever. … He just pounces on it like a wildcat.” (08:04)

2. Stories from Recovery & a Classic-Rock Surprise

• Jase Leads a “Classic-Rock Choir” at Celebrate Recovery
  Jay recounts filling in at Celebrate Recovery, expecting a viral video to break the ice but instead the room erupts in a communal, rowdy singalong to Tom Petty’s “I Won’t Back Down.” [15:18-20:45]
  • Memorable Moment (Jace): “They started singing louder than the worship songs. … It turned into a Tom Petty concert.” (19:34)
• Discussion on Receptivity and Culture
  The group observes how new believers and “fresh out of the world” Christians deeply resonated with the song’s theme, suggesting future events should include similar touchstones for the audience.

3. Hunting, Conservation, and Generations

• Stewardship & Family Traditions
  Jase and Jay discuss generational traditions of duck hunting and land stewardship, highlighting the spiritual and familial connections forged through the outdoors. [10:25-11:41]
  • Quote (Jace): “Stewardship is not just about money. It’s the land, it’s water, it’s wildlife. All of it belongs to God.” (10:34)

4. Biblical Deep Dive: Exodus, Passover, Tabernacle, and Jesus

• Preaching on the Dry Valleys of Exodus
  Zach receives kudos for transforming the “dry” sections of Exodus 35–39 into compelling teaching, visualizing the tabernacle and its connection to Jesus. [02:58-05:36]
  • Quote (Jace): “You know you’re a good preacher, Zach, when you’re taking the dry valley of dry bones that shut down most people’s Bible reading in a year and turn it into something really exciting. Kudos.” (03:32)
• Connecting the Tabernacle, Passover, and Christ
  The group traces the layered symbolism: the tabernacle, the Exodus, Passover, and Jesus’ fulfillment of these roles. Zach explains that Jesus embodies the Passover Lamb, fulfiller of the covenant, and the tabernacle itself. [13:58-41:59]
  • Quote (Zach): “What you see at every step along the way is the necessity of blood... now we’re in the final story of bloodshed, which is going to be the blood of God himself.” (37:42-40:23)
  • Quote (Jay): “For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the festival...” (35:23)
• Old Testament Echoes of Redemption in Christ
  The hosts illustrate scriptural foreshadowing, discussing Genesis, the first worship song (Exodus 15), and New Testament fulfillment. They emphasize Jesus as “the way” and the climax of the Old Testament storylines.
  • Quote (Jace): “The whole story from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22... it’s so connected that it’s like a divine connection.” (42:41)

5. The Crucifixion and Symbolism of Sacrifice

• The Timed Sacrifice
  The group explains how John notes the Passover timing in Jesus’ crucifixion, matching the slaughter of sacrificial lambs, underscoring Jesus as the true, unblemished Passover Lamb. [51:02-55:19]
  • Quote (Jace): “Now, this is right in the middle of Jesus being our Passover lamb. ...the symbolism is so rich here because it’s just as Paul had described.” (51:02)
• Jesus as the Fulfillment of Every Aspect of the Tabernacle
  Zach gives a rapid-fire rundown: Jesus as the altar, laver, lampstand, showbread, incense altar, veil, ark, mercy seat, and glory cloud.
  • Quote (Zach): “He is what enables us to actually see the Father. ...He’s all of it. He’s the beginning and the end of the whole thing.” (55:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Family Dynamics:
  “He dreams about fishing. And so most of the times when he dreams, he looks outside his window and there I am catching them.” – Jay (05:50)
• On the Tabernacle:
  “Every single part of the tabernacle, it ends up being Jesus. Every last one of them.” – Zach (05:00)
• On Song and Worship:
  “I just lost the crowd. It just turned into a concert. People swaying, dancing, singing the song. Even when I turned it off, they just kept singing. They knew it by heart.” – Jay (20:07)
• On Bible Symbolism:
  “Exodus is... an echo of Genesis and it’s a foreshadowing of what we realize in Christ.” – Zach (37:22)
• C.S. Lewis Reference:
  “I believe in the Sun, not because I can see it, but because by it I can see everything else.” – Zach quoting C.S. Lewis (49:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:11 – 01:46: Banter about family fairness and duck hunting invitations
• 05:36 – 09:34: Willie’s beaver/rat problem and Jay’s undercover operation
• 15:18 – 20:45: Celebrate Recovery story & Tom Petty singalong
• 10:25 – 11:41: Reflections on conservation, duck stamps, and multigenerational land stewardship
• 13:58 – 41:59: Theological deep dive—Exodus, Passover, and Jesus as fulfillment
• 51:02 – 55:19: Passover’s role in the crucifixion narrative & Jesus’ fulfillment of tabernacle symbolism

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Tone & Style

The episode balances Southern warmth, comic storytelling, and deep scriptural reflection. There are plenty of laughs about family quirks and misadventures, sincerity in spiritual teaching, and moments where the group marvels aloud at the intricate tapestry of God’s narrative woven through history and scripture.

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For Listeners

If you’re new to “Unashamed,” expect equal parts Bible study, family hijinks, and unfiltered storytelling. This episode in particular is rich with practical examples, relatable quirks, and helpful theological links—especially for those interested in the connections between Old Testament rituals and the Gospel.

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Next Time: The group teases more storytelling and a continued scholarly look at John 18–19, the Passover, and the meaning behind Jesus’ final hours.

Transcript

[Jay]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Zach]

I feel like I've walked into some kind of conversation. I don't know what's going on.

[Jay]

It's.

[Jace]

Sometimes, you know, Zach reminds me of your, your, your mom used to do that. She would call me and you would answer the phone, and she would start in like, we had been talking for like, 30 minutes and we were halfway through a conversation, but I was like, I would listen. I say, okay, Jan, let's back it up just a bit because you caught me way off guard here. What, what exactly. What exactly are you talking about?

[Zach]

She, she was a strange one. That's no doubt about it.

[Jace]

She was strange.

[Zach]

But so was it.

[Jace]

I was just going to say, because we're rolling. Welcome to unashamed, by the way. But we, we were, we were talking as we came on, and Zach pulled a quite a move Monday when we recorded Jay's. Because he was late. And you and I were just grumbling and grousing about his lateness, but he had pulled a little shenanigan because he had read in the house and we didn't know it. And so the delay was setting up Reed's shot, in which I totally got it then. And it was, it was a very cool move. So, so, Zach, you pulled a good one on us. That was a good little. Yeah, you got a scraping. And then we had to repent.

[Jay]

So he's seizing on that opportunity now. His first question this morning was trying to weasel his way into a duck hunt this year.

[Zach]

Yeah, I'm, We. That's my. Yeah, I'm weaseling. Jay says you're. You trying to weasel in a duck hunt. I'm like, have I not been a good cousin? Your, your son came to spend the weekend with me. Your daughter's coming this weekend. I've loved on your family, loved on your kids.

[Jay]

You've been to the wedding.

[Zach]

Let me just, I want to come duck hunt. And you're like, you trying to leave.

[Jay]

I replied to this, my relationships are not work based, based, performance based relationships.

[Jace]

Oh, legalism is a killer, boy.

[Zach]

Apparently not.

[Jay]

Oh, man.

[Zach]

Well, we did have a good time with, with, with Reed and Brighton. Jason, you know, so yesterday. Reed is interesting. So I, I, I preached at our church yesterday, and, and I walk in and Reed is on the stage, and he ends up leading worship for, for our church. Just like last minute, just. I was like, how did you.

[Jay]

What?

[Zach]

So Grant called my brother. Grant called, Grant said he lost his voice and asked if I would do it. So he doesn't know Anybody in the church, but obviously our family. And he got. And he leads the church in worship.

[Jace]

It was probably awesome.

[Zach]

I was pretty impressed.

[Jace]

Yeah, well, it was really good. Zach.

[Jay]

There's a phrase in the singing world, if you can sing the phone book, you don't need a whole lot of time to prep. I mean, Reed can sing. He did not get that from me.

[Zach]

He brought it.

[Jay]

He got it from the Lord God and my wife.

[Zach]

Yes.

[Jay]

He just got an.

[Zach]

It was good. We made. We had a good time. I made him steak. So we did the whole deal.

[Jace]

It was.

[Zach]

It was fun.

[Jay]

He actually called me last night and gave me a report. He. He gave you a compliment. You want to hear what it was? Yeah.

[Zach]

What he said.

[Jay]

He said, zach, preach Yesterday on Exodus 35 to Exodus 39. And so I searched the memory banks in five seconds, and I thought, I got nothing here. Yeah, he said he actually made something really interesting out of something that I've never read nor heard of.

[Jace]

You know, you got. You know, you're a good preacher, Zach, when you're taking the dry valley of dry bones that shut down most people's Bible reading in a year and turn it into something really exciting. Kudos.

[Zach]

Well, I started with that because it's all the. It's all the instructions. Well, it's the detailed version of how they built the tabernacle. So it's like, you know, you got to take this kind of, you know, cloth with this, and you, you know, make these loops, and it's. I mean, it's just like, literally four chapters of seemingly laborious details on the construction of the tabernacle.

[Jace]

It's like a Pinterest or something.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, but when you're reading it, I mean, you're thinking it's like it's got to be, you know, this many cubits long. What's it. You know, it's a cubit, and it's this language we don't use. And so it's all.

[Jay]

But. But what.

[Zach]

What I. What I found interesting in. In the whole thing is. I mean, I've been doing a deep dive on the temple and the tabernacle for probably the last three years. So I was, like, loaded for bear.

[Jace]

Zach. We're aware. We're aware. On this podcast, we know when I.

[Zach]

Took Jace's line at the end, I was. I mean, it was basically. I mean, the whole thing summed up.

[Jace]

And.

[Zach]

And I did a video. I found this AI Animation video where you. It kind of takes you through the tabernacle. So you go into the Courtyard and then you see the, the altar there, then the laver. And then you move in through the actual. The. Into the holy place and then to the most holy place with the Arkham. But you're, you're visualizing it.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So I started the sermon with that and was. It was good. So people saw it. And then at the end went back through the whole thing. And then I went through the Gospel of John, which is what we're in now, and essentially just showed every single part of the tabernacle. It is a picture of Eden, but more importantly, every single part of the tabernacle, it ends up being Jesus. Every last one of them. And I think everybody was just like, whoa.

[Jay]

Yeah, that's what he said. That was the depiction. He was like, I was amazed. So, yeah, they had a good time.

[Jace]

Let me just tell you what. So I don't know J. How much you're prepared to share about this, but when I. When I'm listening and Jay's on the phone, I'm assuming it was with Willie about some sort of rat situation.

[Jay]

What exactly is just typical of our relationship, you know? So Willie has this thing about me fishing in his pond, which I've offered to contribute because he bought these fish and I'm catching them all and eating them and he can't catch them. You know, one, he's like, well, I'm too busy or whatever. But when he, he. He dreams about fishing. And so most of the times when he dreams, he looks outside his window and there I am catching them. So it's, it's hard for him. So, you know, how will he is. He's got to come up with something to justify what's happening.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And it's not about money. It's not about. He's just. He wants.

[Jace]

Because he doesn't want to be petty, like it's money. So he' I find something. So I get it.

[Jay]

He's like, hey, dude, you realize, you know, there's some kind of creature eating all my trees. I'm like, yeah, I've noticed. You probably ought to do something about it. And he's like, well, why don't you do something about it? You're down there all the time. And he has a rat problem and it's severe. And so I've been.

[Zach]

Wharf rat.

[Jay]

Oh, no, no, no, no. These are, these are beavers. Nutra muskrat. Think. Think that.

[Zach]

That like big rats, the kind of take down trees.

[Jay]

Well, they take down trees and they, they bust your levees. And you know, he's Tried to go the yuppie way of hound it, and it's not working. So then he realized he has a brother with a certain set of skills. And so he's like. He. He kind of put this hit out a couple months ago. And so I was. I called him because I took little man down there yesterday. And look, it was the most impressive thing because what little man doesn't realize, in my effort to teach him how to fish, I've actually taught him how to be the bag man. Because when I go down there, I want to do this as quick as possible because I know, you know, there's some tension in the neighborhood, eyes in.

[Jace]

The sky about what I'm doing, and.

[Jay]

I have turned a three and a half year old boy until the. To the greatest bag man ever. I mean, look, I called a crappie yesterday. I mean, it was right about dark, and he's got. That. He's got his gloves on because, you know, I'm allergic to touch a scale fish. Well, so I need an assistant. He's sitting there with two gloves on. When that fish hits the bank. He just pounces on it like a wildcat. I get the hook out, he grabs it, bag open in the bag. He's like, get another one. So we caught six crappie, and I would say eight minutes they were in a bag, and we left the whole time. Took eight minutes. But during those eight minutes, I realized, because I could see the activity, I found the layer of the. Of the rat infestation.

[Jace]

Oh, boy.

[Jay]

Oh, yeah. And so I basically called Willie and said, I'm moving in now. Tell your security people and all that, whatever, because, you know, our area has a lot of security. I'm like, tell them don't shoot a bearded guy if you see somebody with a weapon that looks like me over on your property. So that was the conversation, which he just.

[Jace]

That's what I was listening to. And I was laughing so hard because it was like y' all were planning this heist. And I thought, I don't know what that's about, but it's in my neighborhood.

[Jay]

It was a heist. I just didn't want to get shot on my brother's property because I'm taking care of his rat problem. So. Yeah, but did you.

[Zach]

Would you say that the. The whole operation was successful in the end, or is it still underway?

[Jay]

Well, yeah, I haven't moved in yet. I'm gonna get down there, in there later and just see, you know, who comes out alive, me or them.

[Jace]

Jace now is second generation because this started with dad, you know, on the big property. You remember the war with the beavers? That was a big theme on the original little duck show. And so that. That has now apparently gone to the next generation. So, Jase, it's that time of year. It's the cool Chr mornings. It says hunting season.

[Jay]

That's my favorite time of year. It takes me back when I was a kid. I mean, I didn't learn about God in a church building. It. It literally was the wilderness as the backdrop.

[Jace]

Yeah. And our family, you know, hunting is not just a hobby. I mean, we made our living for decades doing it. Jace is still, you know, right there the kind of the face of duck commander now going forward, because it's our family business. And so it's all about generation to generation. And you may not know this, but buying a federal duck stamp can help make those memories keep going. Stewardship is not just about money. It's the land, it's water, it's wildlife. All of it belongs to God. And he's entrusted us to take care of it. And we want to leave it better than we found it. And we want to leave it better for our kids and our grandkids, who will see the love of the Creator through his creation for generations to come. So the duck stamp has meant a lot to us through the years of just being there. We had to have one every year to hunt with. But now, of course, it's even more because it's all about conservation. So whether you're a hunter or not, you can still be a part of giving back to the next generation of outdoorsmen. Head over to Duck Stamp.com Unashamed. That's Duck Stamp.com Unashamed to get yours today.

[Jay]

Well, I did something at about 14 years old, which I regretted in the moment, but I had watched that Robert Redford movie. It was one of Phil's favorites. What was the name of that?

[Jace]

Jeremiah Johnson.

[Jay]

Jeremiah Johnson. And, you know, they were after him and he. He was trying to find a place to hide, and he goes underwater, and he comes up in a beaver hut layer inside there. So I'd always, ever since I seen that movie, I thought, I need to do that before I die. And so here's two things. If you ever want to try that, because I successfully pulled it off. Because down on our property, I found the world's largest beaver hut, besides the one that's on the Canadian U.S. border.

[Jace]

They said you can see from space. Yeah.

[Jay]

Well, I guarantee you the one I crawled up in, you see this Joker from space. It was massive. But it was more of a house than just a long trail. Yeah, but two things I noticed. One, if you. When you come up, you need a light. You know, I don't know what I was thinking. I mean, I made it.

[Jace]

They're used to seeing.

[Jay]

Well, I came up. Probably should have thought about that before I risked my life of drowning of submarining into a beaver hut. The next thing, the sound of a bunch of angry beavers when a human pops up in their lair is one of the most frightening sounds because they all at the same time. It was more of a growl.

[Jace]

Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

[Jay]

And now I'm not sure how to get out of there. I mean it went from I'm gonna have a fight to what am I doing here? I need to get out of here.

[Jace]

You were on an away playing field. You were on their turf.

[Jay]

Yeah, it was terrifying. But once I got familiar because it's not like you think, it's chaos on the outside. Kind of reminds me of, you know, you're talking about the temple and the tabernacle. We have the Holy Spirit, but on the inside it's like a little city. I mean it's amazing how they all have rooms and I mean it's quite organized.

[Zach]

It's a little different though. Jeremiah Daniel. I mean Jeremiah. Jeremiah Johnson, because that's in the. That was like in the Rocky Mountain area. So you got like Utah, Montana, it's a little more risky.

[Jace]

But you know that, that Zach that that story is is based on a compilation of several actual mountain men. But one of them was a man named John Coulter. And I'd read his story, but Coulter, he was a leftover from the Lewis and Clark expedition. And he went back like he, you know, he. He made it through the expedition. They went back and he had all these famous things he did. And that's his story. They got chased him one day to escape. He. He came up and under a beaver hut. But based on a true story of an actual mountain.

[Zach]

But how many cottonmouths are in the.

[Jay]

Of the Beaver Dam, Louisiana? That's the other thing. Yeah, that's.

[Jace]

Yeah. But it was.

[Jay]

It was wintertime when I attempted this. And I didn't realize that I was. Because I took all my clothes to do this. So I was glowing in the dark when I came up in the. In the beaver hut and just bad move. And I only know what it looked like later is because once I then went to blowing the top of it up, I just looked down inside there and thought oh, okay. That's where I was.

[Jace]

Yeah. It wasn't as scary when you did that.

[Jay]

Now, when it was, it was actually I was pretty impressed with. So what I did. Al I spoke at Celebrate Recovery. You've spoken there a few times.

[Jace]

I'm speaking there in a couple of weeks.

[Jay]

Oh, wow. I got them ready for you. And look what. Here's what I found. Funny, I wanted to share this with you. So I don't know where we're at with the tour that we introduced, the possible tour. I don't know how that resonated with.

[Jace]

The viewers I've been getting A lot of all the people that have direct access to me, email and whatnot have been saying, we are ready. We will travel. You know, have, have, have event. Will travel is the word I'm getting from folks.

[Jay]

This is crazy what happened. So, you know, it's a crazy audience. And I did a bit that I had done on the podcast about when Peter was staring at the fire. And then when he's looking at the coals on the bank post Jesus Resurrection, and then Acts 2, you know, fire comes out via the Holy Spirit. I mean, you're seeing all this fire, fire. And I was just kind of. I went through that bit about Peter having this transformation process, but so I bookended it on. I started off with this viral video that came out in 2012. It was a newscast, and the woman's name was Sweet Brown. And a fire broke out, I think it was in Oklahoma. And so the news crew goes. And they're like, you know, what happened? And here's this woman. She's like, I was going to get some pop. She called, I guess, a soda drink. She called it pop. And I thought somebody was barbecuing. And there was a fire. Y' all remember that clip?

[Jace]

Oh, yeah. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Jay]

That was it. They turned it into songs. I mean, it went viral before things went viral. So I started off with that clip, like, 26 seconds. Nobody laughed. There was a couple chuckles. And so when I got up, I was like, how many people have seen that before? I would say 10% had seen it. And I thought, huh, Well, I guess y' all was off, you know, doing drugs or whatever when that. When that came out, because they celebrate recovery. It's a pretty rough audience, you know, and a lot of them are new Christians.

[Jace]

And that was 13 years ago, dude.

[Jay]

So I had that little clip. I thought that was going to be an icebreaker. That was pretty much just crickets. And I made the Point about how a near death experience gets your attention. And a lot of people, you know, follow the Lord because they're scared. They don't want to die or they're scared to go to hell. That was kind of my intro.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And I was getting to the point. What changed Peter's life? It wasn't the miracles. He saw all those things. What changed his heart? Was he sitting there eating breakfast with a guy who was three days earlier dead?

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And so. And then he asked him, you know, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Because he had denied him three times. And so that was kind of where I started. However, somewhere in the, in the first part of the sermon, I brought up the Tom Petty song because it has a similar idea as the sweet Brown. It, you know, guy set fire to his house.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jay]

His wife and kid was in there and he spent years trying to get over it. And then he, he wrote that song, I won't back down. So I went through that story.

[Jace]

But did you drop your Selena Gomez nugget on him?

[Jay]

Oh, no, I left her out. But no, here's what happened. It didn't go as planned. I just said, this is my new walk up song. And so I took my phone and played it like into the microphone. Here's what I wasn't prepared for. All these people who had just come.

[Jace]

Out of the world, celebrate recovery, they started singing along.

[Jay]

They started singing louder than the worship songs. There were people dancing and I was going to talk through the song and, and highlight the phrases. Oh, no, you could not hear me because it just turned into bedlam. It turned into a Tom Petty concert. So funny.

[Jace]

So, so funny. You had big expectations on your first video, which fell flat, but then you're just going to play this song and talk through it. And it was, it just knocked it.

[Jay]

Out of the park. The vibe, though, it actually. In a good way. And then when I actually went through the song once I maintained some sort of decor. We. I just lost the crowd. It just turned into a concert. People swaying, dancing, singing the song. Even when I turned it off, they just kept singing. They knew it by heart. I was like, calm down, it's a good song.

[Zach]

It's a good song.

[Jay]

So I. But I did. That's what I was going to say. If we do that song, that's going to resonate with the new, the new Christians fresh out of the world. Because, boy, they, they were all about that.

[Jace]

So what you did was, Jay, is that was what we call a test. That was a Screener. You did a little test audience and it was a big smash.

[Jay]

That will work. They will sing along with it and got fire. I think they appreciated the story and I really think it went well. Overall, it was a great experience. You couldn't stick another person in there. So be prepared. Al.

[Jace]

Well, yeah, and I would, I might to talk to Rucker and see if hopefully they recorded it. Maybe I can watch it because I might can come back with a part two.

[Jay]

I don't think they recorded the first. I was kind of surprised. The first thing they said is turn all phones off and no recording whatsoever. Which I thought, oh, we fixed. Go crazy up in here.

[Jace]

I guess there's a certain anonymity about Celebrate Recovery. But I will say it's a, it's a live action. I mean, it's a thrill shot to speak there because these people are, they do the, the word Celebrate Recovery. They do it, they do it every Friday. So yeah, it's exciting. Well, we have like the second first or second largest CR Friday evenings in America out of thousands of cr. So I mean, we got it happening.

[Zach]

So there is a reason that I'm proud to say that I am a Pure Talk customer. Pure Talk is my wireless company, and here's why. Because they don't just talk to talk. These guys walk the walk. And especially when it comes to supporting veterans, which, you know, if you listen to this podcast, that's something important to us this month. Pure Talk is supporting Canines for Warriors. And what that is, it's an incredible organization that rescues and trains dogs and then it pairs them with veterans who are struggling with ptsd. Look, you got to remember that these are the men and women who served with honor. But sometimes when they come home, that brotherhood, that support network that they had in the military, it evaporates very quickly. And so the Canines for Warrior program steps in to fill that gap, giving these heroes purpose, companionship and healing. And that's exactly why Pure Talk, by the way. It's a veteran led company, supports them. You know, choosing a wireless company has never been easier. And also with talk, text and plenty of 5G data for just 25 bucks a month, you could be supporting a worthy cost and saving a ton of money along the way. I look, I made the switch to Pure Talk. It was super easy. I did it in as little as 10 minutes. And I love the fact that these guys are supporting our veteran community. So you can be a part of this as well by going to PureTalk.com Unashamed to make the switch today again, go to PureTalk.com UnashamEd and switch to America's wireless company, PureTalk.

[Jay]

It's good stuff. I have a couple other stories, but I'll save it for our next podcast because since Zach is deep in Exodus, what I noticed where we're at in John 18 and I don't know, did we talk about the Passover aspect? Why the question why did Jesus choose the Passover?

[Jace]

We did. We hint. We hinted at it, but we didn't because John mentions it a couple of times when he, when he's dropping in these time of days and stuff like that. That's not just random, you know, just random fact. You were exactly right. That's a tie in to the preparation of the lambs and the, you know, when they're going to be slaughtered and all this stuff. So no, Jaz, that's a good place to start.

[Jay]

I think we need to do that and I know we spent the last couple talking about the kingdom, which rightfully so and we should continue because that narrative continues on into John 19. On what this means about Remember all through the Gospels, I don't know how many references there are, but the kingdom is at hand.

[Jace]

Yeah, we read. You read several. A few. Last time we Talked about Daniel 2, I read what Paul said to Timothy in 1 Timothy 6 and there's also. We didn't get to Hebrews 12 is another picture of this kingdom. But you're right, we're right. I mean that's exactly where we're at in the text because you've got, you know, Pilate is not the king, but he is the ruling authority from Rome on, on sight. But then you've also got King Herod, which is going to come up in here too. Not, not in John, but it's in Matthew. And so there's kings all over the place. And yet Jesus says yes, it. What you say is correct. I am a king. So he doesn't back away from that idea of him being king.

[Jay]

Yeah. So I didn't know if you wanted to do that. Zach, if you have any comments, I noticed a couple things about that is what I was going to say about how the Passover ties into this thing or why I guess we're giving our opinion on why he chose the Passover. But I think when you go back to the Passover story in Exodus, Jesus is introducing a new and ultimate and final exodus of humanity.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's good to see the Gospel of John as orally all the gospels, but the Gospel of John is an overlay of the story of Exodus. I mean, the story of Exodus is the central story to God's people. And so the three main events in the book of Exodus, in the story that now applies to us, is it's really simple, but it's three main things. The first is the Passover. Then you have the giving of the covenant, which is the ten Commandments, the law. And then lastly, the last half of the book pretty much is essentially the story of the building of the tabernacle. And so what you see is in Jesus, you actually see that Jesus is the Passover lamb. Jesus is the. The mediator and the fulfillment of the new covenant. And Jesus is also the tabernacle. So all of it's fulfilled in Christ. So I think I'd love to hear your. I don't think it's your opinion. I think that it's the direct link to the Passover.

[Jay]

Yeah, I probably could have said that differently. I mean, I think that is the connection. And there's two aspects when you say Passover. There's kind of two aspects to that story. I mean, you have the 10 plague event, which is basically God wanting Pharaoh in Egypt to let his people go because the word Exodus means way out. So here they are in captivity, and there's like a duel here. I want my people to go. And you don't want that to happen. And so you kind of have this de creation occurrence happening through plagues and demonstrating God's judgment in a way. And so it culminates with the 10th plague being this. Okay, if you don't let them go, then the firstborn of your sons will.

[Jace]

Die, which is livestock and everything.

[Jay]

Yeah. Which is something that Pharaoh had done to Israel.

[Jace]

Right.

[Jay]

Eliminating, you know, the first son. So that's kind of the moment. And so then you get this story where, okay, if you go get a lamb, he told Israel, and sacrifice it, and I guess eat it, but take the blood from the cleaning process and put it on your doorpost. And then it's a real interesting part of that story. It will keep the destroyer from destroying you, your firstborn. But then you have that aspect. So Pharaoh wilts, and then all of a sudden, once they leave, he's like, oh, no, he starts chasing them. And then you get to the parting of the Red Sea, which my point is, in a way, that event kind of has two legs to it. Because then the Israelites are commissioned to jump into the sea, basically, and the Lord will provide a way. And all of a sudden the sea parts and they pass through. So the first one was a Passover, then they passed through the sea, which is baptism. Well, right. That's where I was going with this, because you remember when we read the text where he says, I have to look it up real quick, but we're the one where the mom comes and says, okay, how about my sons? One of them sit on your right, one of them sit on your left. Where's that at? Matthew 26, maybe.

[Jace]

Yeah, it's at the end of Matthew. I know.

[Zach]

That's the sons of Zebedee.

[Jay]

And he says, remember he has that verse where he says, can you drink the cup or be baptized with the baptism that I was baptized with? Well, if you kind of think about this, what hit me when I was reading John 18. I think it's Matthew 26, but I could be wrong. So let me just read that. Mark 10:35. Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. Teacher, they said, we want you to do for us whatever we ask. What do you want me to do for you? There's another good Jesus question. They replied, let one of us sit at your right hand and the other at your left. You don't know what you're asking. Jesus said, can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with? And what I found fascinating is I'd never thought. Thought about this before, but think about when Paul in First Corinthians, there's two moments that seem to line up with this same idea, and I'll go backwards. You remember in First Corinthians 10, first four verses, where he says, for I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact that our forefathers were all under the cloud, which is the presence of God, and they all passed through the sea. Well, what are we talking about? The parting of the Red Sea? Yeah. Well, yeah. Then it says, but this is in response to the Passover that had happened, that started this. This Exodus, in which the word exodus means way out. Just think about that. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. I mean, what, What? Just think of where your mind goes. That they were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink. But here's what I noticed in First Corinthians 5, which is why I had missed this, because when's the last time you heard a sermon on First Corinthians 5? I'm pausing for effect, because, remember, they had this weird immorality going on but this is so fascinating to me. So in First Corinthians 5, he's like, look, there's actually reported that there's a sexual immorality among you of a kind that does not occur even among the pagans. A man has his father's wife, and it's like, what? In the church? And he's like, and you're proud. Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I'm not physically present, I'm with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. Which shows you, again, we have a misunderstanding. When people say, don't judge me, Paul is like, oh, I'm making a judgment on this.

[Jace]

Yeah, this is bad.

[Jay]

Yeah. But then he tells you why. And I think this is fascinating. When you were assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit. And look what else. And the power of our Lord Jesus is present. Hand this man over to Satan. Which goes in with the theme of God's judgment that I brought up in Exodus, which is kind of what that means. It's always, you're handed over to your own devices so you can deconstruct, decreate whatever word you want to use to describe that and realize this is not God's plan for your life.

[Zach]

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[Jay]

You will suffer in the consequences of your decisions. Think Romans 1. Remember when it says God handed them over, handed them over, handed them over. So he's just not preventing it so that the flesh may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. And we've talked about that before. And then he says, your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? So now he's describing this new creation. You know that the body of believers is in Christ. And it's like you allow that to happen. It's affecting the image. It's supposed to be portraying that there is a God and we love one another and we do what's right and we speak the truth and love all that. So it says, get rid of all the old yeast, that you may be a new batch without yeast, as you really are. Then this is the point I wanted to get to for Christ, our Passover lamb. He literally just says, that has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. I just found that fascinating in 1 Corinthians 5, 1st Corinthians 10. It seems to link up with what he was predicting when he said, can you drink the cup I'm going to drink? And you think, Passover cup, and can you be baptized with the baptism I was. And you go to this new Exodus thinking, the freedom we have in Christ as a new creation. And he chose to do this on Passover. It's mentioned twice in John 18. And he's not doing that by accident.

[Zach]

No, that's intentional. Exodus is kind of the way I view the story of Exodus is it's an echo of Genesis and it's a foreshadowing of what we realize in Christ. And so when you think about the.

[Jay]

Path that's a good point there. Let that linger. Zach, that's really good.

[Zach]

Yeah. Well, I think it echoes in the Passover. It echoes back to even, like the story of Isaac, right? You have Genesis 22. So you see the sacrifice there, and then there's a ram caught in the thicket. So it's another echo of Genesis there. And that ram was the substitute, right? So sacrifice your only son, and then there's going to be a sacrifice that Abraham's going to make, and then God's going to provide a substitution. So it's echoing back to that. It's echoing back to the garden. If you remember in the garden, when man sinned for the first time and then kind of the plagues entered the world, the plague there was that man realized he was naked. Man and woman, they realized they were naked. They ran and they hid. And then so there's that. That idea of shame entering into the world. And then God says, your covering is not going to do so he has to shed the blood of an animal and cover them with a more durable covering, which is foreshadowing the Passover lamb, which is foreshadowing Christ. So there's all this in there. It just loops. The story loops over and over and over again. So when you get to John 18, and this is right before Christ is going to be executed, so he's going to be crucified. And so the interesting thing about that is that in the past, it was. The lamb would be sacrificed at Passover for the sins of the people, so to speak. And this was like your covering, right? This blood over the doorpost was your covering. Just like God gave a durable covering when Adam and Eve sinned for the first time. And that took blood to do that. So what you see at every step along the way is the necessity of blood. There was a necessity of blood when they're covering up with fig leaves and God's like, not going to do. There's bloodshed. Now you have leather. You're covering up with leather. There's bloodshed at the Passover. And then now we're in the final story of bloodshed, which is going to be the blood of God himself. God in flesh, God incarnate, shedding his blood for the sins of the people. And then when he's resurrected, the way that we get into that in Acts 2, what was the story? Repent and be baptized. So now you're going through the Dead Sea. I mean, you're going through the Red Sea. And just like Israel was baptized through the water, which is Also an echo of Genesis. Whenever Noah was saved through the water.

[Jay]

Well, in Genesis 1, even in the creation process, the waters were started from chaos to order, even followed, Zach, the.

[Jace]

Trail of the baptisms themselves, because Jason read it. So we talked about the baptism of Moses is the way Paul put it. Then we have the baptism of John, which was the calling of Israel to repentance. The Lamb of God has come. Prepare yourselves for the bride of Christ. And then you had the baptism of Christ, which we then see unfolding in the book of Acts. And now we're 2,000 years. We get that. So over the course of human history, it's been. You see the plan of God as it's unfolded through every aspect of it. I mean, it's just so. It's so clear.

[Zach]

And every Sunday at our church, we partake in the Lord's Supper, which is also, you know, the Passover lamb. The Passover foreshadowed, the Eucharist and the Lord's Supper. So I think when you start to see how these things continue to echo throughout eternity, and then even what we're participating in now is a foreshadowing of what we're going to get at the end of time or at the end of the. When the second coming of Christ occurs. And what that does for me is it moves. A lot of conversations I used to have, I don't even know where it moves them to. It just makes them seem so small. It's like questions like, do you have to be baptized? Or it's like, what? Like, what do we. What do you do? Like, look at this.

[Jace]

I've said on record.

[Jay]

I think that's the dumbest question I've ever.

[Zach]

It's just like, I don't even know. It's like that question doesn't exist. When we begin to see the beauty of what God is unfolding in that story, the deeper we get into it, I'm seeing more connection. How the. The whole story from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, it is like. It's so connected that it's like a divine connection that you can't. I mean, and the deeper I get into it, the more I see that it's connective and it makes sense. Now. When you read verses like that, the. The word of God is living and breathing, you're like, okay, I think I kind of get that now.

[Jay]

Oh, yeah.

[Jace]

But you have to. You have to take that high up view, though, because Jason just brought that point in. First Corinthians, five days. When you get to 1 Corinthians 11. And he's talking about the supper. He's talking about your gatherings together. It's so interesting because he comes back, and even though the bread is unleavened, people now even make such a big deal about, oh, is it leavened bread? Is it not?

[Zach]

The.

[Jace]

The picture he's trying to present is, you don't want the old way. That person has been put to death. This. The idea of the leavening is the idea of bringing that death over. We died to that. We're not going to live that way.

[Jay]

Which makes sense on why Jesus, I am the way. And you think. And people don't talk about, look, this was about liberation, freedom from sin and death from the old world, from your enemies. And I'll give you an example of what you said, Zach. You know, what triggered what resulted after the parting of the Red Sea. And so think about it. These are two terrifying things. I mean, a plague comes on the firstborn. You have this Passover moment, then you have the moment at the Red Sea. Just think how terrifying that would be to experience in real life. But then God delivers you. He frees you from not only the results of captivity and sin, but also the possibility of death in going through something that would always produce death unless God intervened. And it resulted in the first worship song in the Bible, which is Exodus 15. And I want to just read a couple lines of that and see how that foreshadows what we have in Christ. So this is Exodus 15. After they've gone through the sea. Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord. I will sing to the Lord, for he is highly exalted. The horse and its rider, he has hurled into the sea. The Lord is my strength and my song. He has become my salvation, which is the Hebrew word for what Jesus name. Is that Yeshua.

[Jace]

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[Jay]

It's just part of having pets, Al. Nobody likes to do it well.

[Jace]

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[Jay]

He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a warrior, The Lord is his name. But when you even think about how he pulled this off, he was basically, he let the oppressors, the enemies, defeat themselves by handing them over and then allows them to walk through. It wasn't like he. He fought like we think of fighting as a warrior does. And so then he says, Verse 6, you, right hand, O Lord, they're singing. This song was majestic in power. Your right hand, O Lord, shattered the enemy. Well, just think of where Jesus is right now. How is he depicted? He's at the right hand of God. And we're over here in Exodus. But then I love this in verse 10. But you blew with your breath. Well, what does breath always signify? The Holy Spirit. And the sea covered them. They sank like lead in the mighty waters. So then when it gets to verse 11, it shifts to, like the future, it says, who among the gods is like you, O Lord? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glory? You stretched out your right hand and the earth swallowed them. And watch verse 13, in your unfailing love, you will lead the people you have redeemed. Remember when we went through redemption means not only what he did on the cross, but the resurrection. And then verse 16, terror and dread will fall upon them, the enemies of God. By the power of your arm, they will be as still as a stone until your people pass by, O Lord, until the people you brought pass by. You will bring them in and plant them on the mountain of your inheritance. Well, that sounds familiar. Think Ephesians 1. Through the Spirit you've been given this inheritance. The place, O Lord, you made for your dwelling. Well, we're the dwelling place of God. Think the last two verses of Ephesians 2. We rise to become the holy temple of God in which the Spirit dwells, your hands established. And then look at verse 18. The Lord will reign forever and ever. And there's the King of kings. Which leads you to that conversation, back to what he was having with Pilate. I mean, isn't that fascinating?

[Jace]

It is.

[Zach]

When you're reading that, I was thinking, man, you see Jesus all in. Reminded me of that. You guys ever heard that quote by C.S. lewis? Because I think we get into this, we think you guys are seeing Jesus in everything. And it reminds me of that quote where C.S. lewis says, I believe in the Son, not because I can see it, but because by it I can see everything else. And I think, man, Christ is just saturated in the Old Testament. He really is saturated in that song, that worship song that you. Which you said, you said it was the first worship song in the Bible.

[Jay]

It is.

[Zach]

It's interesting you've never heard that before. I don't know if I've ever put that together.

[Jay]

Google it and then you can tell.

[Jace]

Me all about is true. Well, I was going to mention that. So John mentions it first. In John 18:28, it mentions the time of day it is in the Passover. And that would have been the time where the lambs were being prepared for Passover sacrifice. And then he mentions it again in 1914, the sixth hour. And this would have been the time the lambs would have been being slaughtered. Now, this is right in the middle of Jesus being our Passover lamb. And so you see, the symbolism is so rich here because it's just as Paul had described. This is exactly what he's doing for us. And you know, it's interesting because when I was doing a deeper dive this weekend into crucifixion itself, just as an execution tactic of the Romans, which, by the way, goes back even before them, they just perfected it in terms of what they did. But they would drag out these things for as long as possible because the ideal was you wanted the people to see that if you cross the Roman Empire, you're going to take a week plus to die on this tree. And it was.

[Jay]

It was brutal.

[Jace]

It was terrible. It was awful. But what's interesting about our story, and we're and we're right in the middle of it because we hadn't quite gotten there yet with Jesus being crucified. But the idea here is that because of the political environment and the way this is all going down, everything is going to be rushed forward to get this done before the Passover. So they don't even realize it, but they're actors in a play that's already been written a long time ago is Isaiah 53 and all these other texts.

[Zach]

And they're not the main. And they're not the main characters.

[Jace]

They're not the main characters. But that's the thing.

[Jay]

Well, and that's that. That was my whole point for bringing this up. When you read that song in Exodus 15, it's just as much about the enemies of God being defeated and God bringing freedom to his people than it is about forgiveness of sins and even overcoming death. I mean, all those things are intermingled. And that's what's happening with Jesus. Just think about it. One of the names for the evil one, which he. In John 12, when he said about defeating the evil one, now is the time he stands condemned, which is the ultimate enemy in power against God. But there are all sorts of spiritual forces of evil at work. And you think about what Jesus is going through here. How many times is he accused in John 18 and John 19? And just in the whole book, it's accusation after accusation after accusation.

[Zach]

And they're lies. Yeah.

[Jay]

Oh, they're all lies. Thinking I was looking into them just. Just on the Internet about how many times Jesus was accused. There is a list as long as you can read from everything from blaspheming to, you know.

[Zach]

Well, the last one.

[Jay]

Breaking the law. Yeah, breaking the law. Various occasions.

[Zach]

Yeah. One of the last ones that he was accused of was they said that this man said that he will destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. And he never said that. He said, if you destroy this temple, he said, you destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days. Speaking of his body. And so I think when you think about Jesus as a Passover lamb, here's what's interesting, because if you look at the tabernacle, they had this fence around it. And then, like, you'd walk in from the. Basically everything was eastbound, facing east. So you'd walk in and you would see. Right. When you walk in the courtyard, you would see this altar where they would actually sacrifice the animals. Right. And so you understand that when Jesus came at the beginning of John, he said the word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we have seen his glory. So Jesus was the actual tabernacle. So when you walk into the tabernacle and you see that altar there, the bronze altar where they would sacrifice the lamb, John 1:29 says, behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. So he's the tabernacle, he's the lamb. The next thing you come to is the laver, which is John 13:8, unless I wash you, you have no part in me. That's the place where the priest would clean himself up. Jesus is the lava, he's the lampstand. John 8:12, I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness. He's the showbread. Once you walk into the holy place, there's a table that has the showbread, 12 loaves of bread on it. John 6, as you mentioned, Jace, Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Then you got the incense altar where they would intercede on behalf of the people. And that's John 11 where Jesus says that he's thankful that the Father has heard him, because he always hears him. He's the veil, he's the ark, he's the mercy seat. And ultimately what Christ is, is. He is the glory cloud. He is the manifesting presence of God. John 1:14, we have seen his glory, Gloria, as the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. That's who Christ is. He is what enables us to actually see the Father. We see the Father through Jesus. So Jesus ends up being more than just the lamb. He's all of it. He's the beginning and the end of the whole thing.

[Jace]

And even the unblemished part, because you couldn't have a lamb that had a broken bone. So even at the end when they didn't break his bone bones, it's because he's an unblemished lamb. Alright, we're out of time, man. Some good stuff we brought up. We'll pick it up here back in John 18:19 next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.