Ep 1212 | Jase Meets the Abominable Snowman & Roasts the Poor Thing

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1212 | Jase Meets the Abominable Snowman & Roasts the Poor Thing

November 19, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Unashamed begins playfully, with Jase ribbing Zach about his enormous, fluffy winter jacket—earning Zach the nickname "the abominable snowman." But soon, the guys pivot from roasting outerwear to deep theological discussion, exploring topics like theological diversity, the relationship between Old Testament law and New Testament grace, why humans have a "want problem," and the overarching purpose of Jesus' sacrifice. Throughout, the Robertsons keep their signature mix of down-home humor and earnest biblical teaching, making this an especially engaging and enlightening discussion on Christian freedom and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Zach's Fluffy Jacket & The "Abominable Snowman" Roast (01:06–06:03)

• Jase mercilessly teases Zach about his excessive winter gear, likening him to the abominable snowman:

  "If you're listening to this, Zach has dressed up like the abominable Snowman today, which is because he's indoors." —Jase (01:35)

• Debate over practicality: Jase questions if Zach can actually move in his jacket, launching an analogy about being protected but immobilized—a prelude to their spiritual discussion.

• Zach defends the coat's mobility and warmth, insisting it's not as limiting as it looks.

  "You gain £40 by putting on a jacket. You look—you look like £240 right now." —Jase (05:35)

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2. Theological Diversity & Baptisms in Extreme Weather (06:03–08:50)

• Outdoor baptisms in freezing weather (baptizing a former Jew and a New Age convert):

  "We baptized a guy that grew up Jewish, came to Christ... We call it living water because it moves." —Zach (06:03)

• Celebration of unity around the campfire, with a Presbyterian, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and a Pentecostal—all sharing their faith together.

  "That's a beautiful picture...something our country could use a real dose of. Because I don't know about you guys, but it feels like we're more divided than ever." —Host (07:53)

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3. Heaven/Earth “Vortex City,” New Age Seekers, and Gospel Opportunity (08:50–10:39)

• Explanation of "vortex cities" (e.g., Sedona, Asheville), which attract new age seekers "where the veil between heaven and earth is thin."

• Zach reframes the concept with Christian theology:

  "If you want to find the place where heaven and earth meet...look in the bodies of Spirit-filled believers because we are the place where heaven and earth meet." —Zach (09:13)

• New Age hunger creates Gospel openness, as seekers are already looking for spiritual connection.

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4. Tensions Around Law, Sabbath, and Old Covenant (10:39–15:29)

• Jase raises ongoing debates with Christians who feel compelled to keep Old Testament ceremonial law after coming to Jesus.

  "One of the debates I got into was with a guy who believes in Jesus, but wants to keep the old law post coming to Jesus." —Jase (12:50)

• Discussion about Sabbath vs. Sunday worship, referencing Acts and Hebrews:

  "I've always thought that we meet on Sundays because Jesus was raised on Sunday. The Holy Spirit was poured out on a Sunday, which I went through this. But he's like, that was the day of Pentecost...a Jewish festival." —Jase (13:58)

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5. Idolatry—Origin and Pervasiveness (15:29–18:50)

• Sin’s connection to wanting to be "our own god":

  "I think when you look at the big picture...God didn't create us to necessarily bear the image—we are the image of God. And so by worshiping God and him alone, everything would have gone a lot better." —Jase (15:29)

• From Eden to Exodus, humanity chooses idolatry. Bob Dylan's "You Gotta Serve Somebody" is cited as a lyrical summary.

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6. Old Testament Law: Its Purpose, Limits, and Fulfillment (18:50–23:10)

• Jase and Zach discuss common misconceptions about the Law:

  "The law...tells you the way to be right with God. The problem...is not that it's bad. It just doesn't provide the means for you to do it." —Zach (20:09)

• No temple, priesthood, or sacrifice in modern Judaism renders full law-keeping impossible.

• The Book of Hebrews as the final word on Law-vs-Grace tension.

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7. Jesus’s Fulfillment of the Law and the Role of Love (24:50–36:10)

• Sermon on the Mount:

  "Here's Jesus taking their law and kind of turning it on its head...it's from the heart where these things are coming." —Jase (24:50)

• The Law exposes inadequacy; love fulfills it:

  "Because love experienced is the new law. A new command I give you: Love each other as I have loved you. This is love for God—not that you love him, but that he loved you enough to send his son..." —Jase (29:27)

• Which Old Testament laws still apply?

  "None...You can make a point of saying, well, you're technically under all of them. Because in Jesus, it's either all or none." —Jase (31:25) "You're under all of them, but they're all fulfilled in Christ." —Zach (31:37)

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8. The Want Problem: Desire, Worship, and the Holy Spirit (31:37–36:10)

• Why we fail to keep the Law:

  "The problem is...because you don't want to. I mean, that's the problem, is that we have a want problem. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, but I do want." —Zach (31:50)

• Purpose of Christ’s crucifixion includes the giving of the Holy Spirit to change our desires and empower us to live as God intended.

  "When the Spirit comes, he's going to live in humans...You actually become a new tent, a new dwelling place. Not the one built by human hands, but the one built by God in heaven." —Zach (33:00)

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9. The Christian Life: Progression, Freedom, and Transforming Desire (37:02–50:37)

• Romans 6–8 and the law of love:

  "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law. Now, it's either fulfilled or it's not in Jesus." —Jase (41:06)

• Justification vs. sanctification:

  "If you're just stopping at justification...you're trying to take the whole idea of Christianity and you're reducing it to am I saved or not, instead of what is the life that God is calling you into?" —Zach (47:16)

• Can Christ restore the most broken desires? Absolutely, through the Spirit’s ongoing transforming work.

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10. Practical Illustrations: Football, Metaphor, and Saying “Yes” in Christ (50:37–57:23)

• Football metaphor for sanctification:

  "The best defense is a good offense...in Christ, all the promises are yes and amen because we're not saying no to what we can't do, or no; we're saying yes to live in Him." —Zach (55:20)

• Contrast between worldly "No" and heavenly "Yes":

  "In Him, it's always been yes...that's in contrast to trying to keep a law, where you have to say no." —Jase (52:09)

• True freedom is being able to say “yes” to righteousness, not just “no” to sin.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the paradox of Law and Grace:

  "You're going to worship something." —Jase referencing Bob Dylan (17:08)
  "Why would I go back to these regulations? ...Why would we worship copies?" —Zach (36:10)

• On the transformative work of the Spirit:

  "You become the holy of holies... Not the one built by human hands, but the one built by God in heaven." —Zach (33:00)

• On living out Christian maturity:

  "We believe them in greater measure the more mature we get in our walk with Christ." —Zach (55:20)

• On the surprise direction of the episode:

  "What you just witnessed was an entire podcast with nothing we had planned to do today that was completely because of Zach's coat." —Host (57:23)

• On freedom in Christ:

  "Just because you're under lock and key does not mean that you can't be set free." —Phil (via Host, 57:23)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:06–06:03: Fluffy jacket banter & abominable snowman jokes
• 06:03–08:50: Outdoor baptisms, theological diversity, unity
• 09:13–10:39: Vortex city, New Age seekers
• 12:50–15:29: Sabbath debates, Law versus Grace
• 18:50–23:10: The function of the Law & fulfillment in Christ
• 24:50–36:10: Christ’s teaching, the law of love, desire, and the Holy Spirit
• 41:06–43:24: Living out the law of love, freedom from compulsion
• 47:16–50:37: The Christian life: saved to something, not just from something
• 52:09–55:20: The positive ("yes") invitation of life in Christ
• 57:23–end: Surprise at the episode’s direction; closing thoughts

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Conclusion

What started as a light-hearted roast of Zach’s snowman-like jacket turned into a powerful, organic conversation about the Gospel, the law, and what it really means to be free in Christ. The Robertsons emphasize that true Christian maturity is about transformation: it’s not about keeping old rules out of compulsion, but about letting the Holy Spirit in to change our deepest desires, propelling us forward as willing, loving agents of God’s Kingdom. This episode serves as a vibrant reminder—change in Christ is always possible, and the promises of God in Jesus are always “yes and amen.”

Transcript

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[Jason]

I am unashamed.

[Zach]

What about you?

[Host]

So welcome back to Unashamed. So we're, we're in three places, as we said on the last podcast. I'm at the Southern Layer. And Jason, I noticed since the last podcast apparently must be cold in Zach's studio because he looks like he's dressed for severe winter. If you're watching, I mean, how you.

[Jason]

Have to address it because.

[Host]

My eyes.

[Jason]

Can'T unsee what I see, which is. If you're listening to this, Zach has dressed up like the abominable Snowman today, which is because he's indoors.

[Zach]

It's cold. It's super cold. Well, I got a real fireplace right here. We were wondering, can't. Will it burn? Can you burn wood in it? So I lit a fire. The chimney works, but I don't know if it's ever been cleaned out. So we're like, we're kind of 50, 50. Should we, you know, should we chance it, see if they catch the whole building on fire? But I'm gonna tell you, it's. The temperature dropped. It's 25 degrees. It was 25 degrees last night and it's snowing today. And what's crazy about that is we had outdoor baptisms yesterday.

[Host]

So it was warm yesterday. And then it was all happened last night.

[Zach]

And, and by the. I mean, it was warm. It wasn't like, I mean, I've got a Rule at our church. I. I'll do baptisms in a certain season, and then once we get to about October, Brandon takes on most of the baptisms. So I'm like, he got everything.

[Jason]

You're question your manhood here, really?

[Zach]

I don't like to be cold.

[Jason]

The problem I have with what you're wearing as a protector, as a man, your mobility is limited. This is like if something happens.

[Zach]

Right now, what I have on here is the warmest jacket you could ever get. It's not waterproof. That's your. That's gonna be the issue with it. But if it's not raining, it's. I mean, it's a thing. This thing is warm, but you can't do anything. It's the same.

[Jason]

It's the same everything.

[Host]

It looks like you're in a bubble wrap.

[Zach]

I got incredible range of motion. I've got everything that you. It's lightweight days.

[Host]

Do you believe that?

[Jason]

Well, here's the deal. In the. In the scholarly world, they've. They've. I've recently found out, because I've had a couple of arguments with people about biblical things here in the last week, and they used a phrase that I had never heard, and they said, we have a theological tension here. And I said, what is that? Well, we're. There's.

[Zach]

Sounds exciting.

[Jason]

We're reading the same verses and coming to different conclusions. But so from a theological tension viewpoint, Zach, what you're wearing. The problem I have with that is, yes, you're saved from the cold, but you can't do anything. You have no mobility. There's be saved to something, because no matter what happens, your best option is to stop, drop, and roll. That's the only way you could actually do anything to defend yourself or protect anyone.

[Zach]

Okay, well, I do have range of motion. I have mobility. I don't want to mess up the analogy, though, because I agree with it and I agree with what you're saying, except it doesn't really apply to what I'm wearing. But, yeah.

[Jason]

Oh, no. Yes, it does. I've been in a duck blind many times, and I've seen what my dad used to call. What did he call them? Where their pants would be too short.

[Zach]

High waters.

[Jason]

High waters. And they put these big jackets on, so when he. He would say cut them, we would raise up. And then the guy in a jacket like you, he's struggling to even lift himself in a standing position, much less put a gun to his shoulder, discharge it, and actually hit what he's aiming at. Impossible.

[Zach]

That's not what I'm trying. That's what I'm trying to tell you, that this is not. Whatever kind of jacket you think you saw or whatever you think you're seeing now is not the same jacket. This is a. I have incredible. I'm telling you, I have incredible mobility in this jacket. It's one of the reasons why I love it.

[Jason]

Well, let me give you. A famous philosopher once said. Yeah, I don't believe you.

[Zach]

I mean, all I can do is.

[Jason]

Tell you, man, and then you gain £40 by putting on a jacket. You look. You look like £240 right now.

[Zach]

It's fluffy, but it's not heavy. That's not. You're conflating fluffiness with heaviness. And it's not this.

[Jason]

This.

[Host]

Jack, I thought Zach needed to come onto the PhD train again.

[Jason]

You're back up. Your weight just went out the roots, I'm telling you.

[Zach]

No, I mean, I wore it last night. Speaking of theological diversity, we had baptisms yesterday. We baptized a guy that was. Grew up Jewish, came to Christ, was just baptized into the cold waters. Rushing waters, it was. We call it living water because it moves. I always tell them when you. When you go down in this water, your sins are washed away. They end up in the Gulf of America. I got trouble for saying the Gulf of Mexico the last time I told baptism stories. Either way, it's full of sin. And then we had a young lady who has been in the New Age movement, and it was really cool because when Brandon baptized her and he took her confession, he asked who was going to be the Lord of her life. And she said, jesus. And he said, and all those other gods, all those other idols you worship, you're denouncing them today? She said, yes. And it was just funny that, like, you know, to think about that we're in a city where you, like, there are literally people worshiping idols. Like, really not, like, I mean, overtly doing this. And so it was such a beautiful baptismal ceremony. And then we wound up at my house that night, around the campfire last night, and you want to talk about theological diversity, I had myself then a Presbyterian Masters of Divinity from Presbyterian Seminary on one side, and on the other side, I had a Eastern Orthodox guy, and then. And then on the other side, I had a Pentecostal. So we had quite the robust conversation last night, Jase. It was definitely some theological diversity around the campfire.

[Host]

So, Zach, that's a beautiful picture. I love that picture of unity, you know, because you had. Sitting around that campfire with all these different folks. And that's something our country could use a real dose of. Because I don't know about you guys, but it feels like we're more divided than ever. And the truth seems to be that. That kind of dividing line. And that's why we need folks like our good partners at Family Research Council, which is Tony Perkins, who's a. Who's a Louisiana guy. Pastor loves the Lord, loves our nation. And they're right there in D.C. really trying to show that biblical truth still matters. They're on Capitol Hill. They're defending faith. They protect families, and. And they remind the leaders of our country what's most important. So help FRC keep defending what matters most. Visit FRC.org unashamed to learn more about what they're doing. Is that. Is Montre. Is that a Presbyterian college?

[Zach]

Yeah, Montreat is Presbyterian. So it's interesting, the town which is Billy Graham, you know, his house where he lived is like up on that.

[Jason]

Up on the.

[Host]

Yeah. Above there.

[Zach]

Like.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

We. In fact, when we first moved here, Will, his grandson drove by the house and saw Al standing out there. What are y' all doing? And he said, y' all want to go see my granddad's house? Or like.

[Host]

Yeah, he gave us a. He gave us a tour.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah, that was a pretty. That was pretty fun. That was awesome, actually, to see where Billy Graham lived and. And he would come down to this little train down here train station when he would go do his crusade. So this area is interesting because there's a rich Christian heritage, but there's also like a. It's. It's called a vortex city, which means a vortex city is. Is. They say the space between the. Don't you love this chase? The veil between heaven and earth is very thin in places like Sedona, Arizona and Asheville, North Carolina. So this is called a vortex city. So it's attracted a lot of the new age energy healers and mystics. So it's. Which is funny because we're like, do you realize that you like, if you understand the teaching of the gospel, that if you want to find the place where heaven and earth meet, well, you might want to look in the bodies of spirit filled believers because we are the place where heaven and earth meet. It's been pretty cool. And I think that's why we've seen such a harvest in the kingdom in an area like this. Because the new age folks, they're already looking for, where does heaven and earth connect? They're searching for it. And so when they run across the Gospel of the kingdom, they're like, oh, my goodness, wait a second. You mean heaven and earth met a man named Jesus, and now we can be living stones built upon him? Tell me more. So that's the harvest that we're seeing here, and it's been awesome.

[Jason]

Well, I'm interested in when you said the Jewish guy came to Christ. What was the theological tension in that study or what? Or were there any.

[Zach]

Well, I. I don't think there was a big theological tension there, because I think he was. He was kind of a nominal. You know, he grew up in Judaism, but he didn't really. It was more of a cultural thing for him. It wasn't like an actual. So then he moved into that. He also, I think, moved into maybe the new age. I didn't actually study with him. All right, guys, are you ready to buy your own home? Do you want to own your own home? You know, we've been buying property for years. Jill and I. We have. It's been the primary tool, honestly, vehicle for us to build a future for our family is. Is owning our own home. And. And we've done that many, many times, bought and sold, our primary residency. And so if you feel like you're ready to buy, I'm telling you, the time to act right now, and here's why. Is because for the first time in years, the buyers actually have the upper hand because there's a lot more inventory on the market than there was a couple of years ago, which means that you have more negotiating power and less competition. But opportunities like this, they don't last long because as soon as the feds cut the rates, guess what happens? Well, interest rates go down, buyer demand goes up and spikes. And you know what that means? Prices go up, and then sellers have the advantage. Peak home buying season is in full swing right now. So now is your moment to lock in the right home for you and do it on your own terms before the market shifts. So reach out to my friends and Andrew and Todd today and get approved for mortgage financing with Andrew and [e-mail] or you can call 8 8/4 1172. I know, Andrew and Todd personally. They're good men. They love Jesus. They have high integrity, and they know the mortgage business. These guys have been the market a long time, you know, and that's why I encourage you to call them, because it's important to work with someone that you can trust and someone that shares your Christian values. These guys are the guys. The guys that I trust with 40 years of experience. They really are the experts and they make it easy because they keep everything in house. So call 8-8-8-1172 or go to andrewandtodd.com that's andrewandtod.com.

[Jason]

I asked that because one of the debates I got into was with a guy who believes in Jesus. But it's like, wants to keep the old law post coming to Jesus, which is an ongoing, you know, debate. And I thought that was going to be easily corrected, but I have been sincerely mistaken. But. And it's strange because it's like he points out points that I think are not major points, but he's made them major, which is like in the Book of Acts. He's like, well, all of them were meeting together on the Sabbath. They weren't meeting on Sundays like we typically do. And I really never thought about it because there's really only one obscure verse, which is Acts 20 and 7. I just remember it because it's the only time that it gives. The first day of the week they came together, and that's Acts.

[Host]

But Also, Jason, Acts 2:44 through 47 area. They met every day. I mean, they were meeting.

[Jason]

Well, that was my point. I went. You know what I did? I went to Hebrews 3 and 4, the chapters, which it's too much to read just because I'm making a point here. But it's drawing from this. A Sabbath rest for the people of God in Jesus. And he characterizes chapter four in that. As long as it's called today. I mean, every day in Christ is a liberating day because you're in Christ, you're free, you have the Holy Spirit. So, you know, just because I would say it's a leadership thing, we're going to meet. And I've always thought that we meet on Sundays because Jesus was raised on Sunday. The Holy Spirit was poured out on a Sunday, which I went through this. But he's like, well, that was the day of the Pentecost, you know, which is a Jewish festival. And so he's trying to keep those, even though this guy's not Jewish. As far as heritage, and it's an.

[Host]

Interesting study, but I just think we're all Jewish in heritage in the sense that, you know, that was the birthplace of the Messiah. So I just, I don't know, you know.

[Jason]

Well, we're grafted. We're grafted in, you know. But you got to remember when God created man. Well, you know, the Israel nation didn't come along until what 12 chapters 15, if you want to get into the covenant with Abraham.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And so I'm like, you have basic humans that are in the garden. And this idea of idolatry is quickly comes to the forefront when you brought that up about idolatry, because you remember the conversation in the garden. It's like the evil one said, oh, well, God knows that if you eat of this fruit, you'll be gods like him. Well, that was appealing. And so I think when you look at the big picture, which is what we're doing going through the Book of John, God didn't create us to necessarily what we say, bear the image. We are the image of God. And so by worshiping God and him alone, everything would. Would have gone a lot better. But then all of a sudden when you're like, well, no, I want to be my own God or I want to worship some other God, then what you were created to be is now not functioning. And so that's where sin comes from. It's like what came first, the idol or the sin. But it's that appeal to either be your own God or worship some other God besides the creator of the universe. And then ultimately sin and death came. And you see that even in the story of the nation of Israel. You know, in Exodus, where was it? Where he said, let me look it up real quick, chapter 20, Exodus 20. Because I'm glad you brought that up about the idols, because what was the song that Everybody's going to worship something. Somebody.

[Zach]

Yeah, Bob Dylan, you got to serve.

[Jason]

Somebody well, and he just threw out a biblical philosophy there, because we're created to worship our God and you're going to worship something. But Exodus 20. Yeah, the Ten Commandments, when it says verse four, you shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth. There it is again. Heaven and earth beneath, or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation, those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. But then in Exodus 32, will you remember what happens? And that's where you bring in this golden calf. Oh, yeah, where was that at? Exodus 32, you can read that whole chapter and you see the same concept. Instead of bowing down to worship God, I mean, they're literally worshiping a calf made of gold that they made, that.

[Zach]

They made out of the plunder that they, out of the blessing that God had given them from the gold that they plundered from the Egyptians, they take the blessing of God. And then the spoils that God gave them said, go, take this. And they take that. And then they craft it into an.

[Host]

Image to worship and probably an image that they saw back when they were in Egypt, which is, you know, which is an even double slap in the. In God's face, which is terrible.

[Zach]

Well, the interesting thing about. I've thought about this too. I don't know the whole, like, depth of your conversation with your friend, but I understand in some capacity how people can get into that argument. Because sometimes you're reacting to something that you've heard. And so I grew up, and you did too, hearing. Anytime you would talk about the Old Testament, anytime you talk about the law, anytime you talk about Judaism, it was always like, oh, that was Old Testament God. And the way it would be almost said it wasn't quite like this, but it was like, that's mean God. And the nice God is Jesus. That's New Testament. And so you would have phrases like, well, we grew up in a church that didn't have instrumental music. And so they would say, well, Ephesians, chapter, is it four or five? Where it says, sing and make melody in your heart. And that was their scripture. It doesn't say, use instruments. It says, sing and make melody in your heart. And so if someone were to bring up David, then you know what they would say? Old Testament doesn't apply. Oh, that's silly.

[Jason]

Even though it says sing psalms, which is the singing by using a stringed instrument. That's what the word means.

[Zach]

But they really viewed it as, oh, that was the Old Testament. And when Jesus came and he nailed it to the cross, he nailed the written code to the cross, which is a scripture. It is in the Bible. But when you read that, if you think that the Old Testament doesn't apply, then you're misunderstanding the whole covenant of grace and what God was actually building and what he's doing. It's not that that stuff was bad. The law was not bad. It was not bad. Paul says that the law was good and the law is good. And the way I would view the law is that the law in the Old Testament, it tells you the way to be right with God. Now, the problem with the law is not that it's bad. It just doesn't provide the means for you to do it. It gives you the way to do it. It doesn't give you the means. The Means to be good is only going to come through Jesus and his finished work and by the power of the Holy Spirit that indwells us. And so if I was meeting with someone who is Jewish and having a Bible study with them, that would pretty much be my tactic, I would say, but what are your. I get. You got the law. Well, the problem is they don't even have the law anymore. Because that would be the big problem, I would say, with trying to follow Judaism today is one. You got a big, big issue that you have to look at, and that is the fact that you don't have any priests. Like, where are the priests and why do I need a priest? Well, because you had to have a sacrifice. Why do I need sacrifices? Because, well, I'm sinful. So where's the sacrifice? Where's the priest? Where's the temple? And when's the last time you saw it? And the answer is, the last time you saw any of that was around this time period that we're seeing right here.

[Host]

And the problem, Jase, the biggest problem with the mindset that you're kind of working with is the book of Hebrews. I mean, what are you going to do with that?

[Jason]

Because, well, that's kind of where I said I was like, you need to read the book of Hebrews. Because I thought the standard versions of, you know, like I thought Galatians 3. 26, you know, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Yeah, and I read the, the quote that Zach made in Colossians 2, which was really the only place that says he nailed the law to the cross and canceled the written code. But there's a couple of obscure translations that type that into English, as in our legal indebtedness, which is the same concept. Of course. That's what he went with. He's like, oh, no, he's not talking about the law. He's talking about our legal indebtedness. And so even like Romans 8, where it says the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death, well, guess what he said. Well, it's still a law.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Zach]

The time that I've been endorsing PureTalk, my wireless company, I can honestly say that I've never seen an offer like this from them before. So you got to pay attention here. This is a big one. Listen to this offer. Unlimited talk, unlimited text, unlimited Data, plus a 30 gig hotspot for just 29, 95 per month. And that price, it's locked in. Listen to this for life? That's insane. This is Pure Talk's top tier plan, which is normally 65 bucks a month, but now through December 7th, it's just 2995. Guys, you got to jump on this now. That's over 50% savings every month for the rest of your life. Yes, that's on their crazy fast 5G network. But heads up, this deal will not last long. You got to make the switch today. Then tell your friends that you're switching and that you're saving a ton of money with Pure Talk. Look, I'm a Pure Talk customer. Switching is super easy. Plus, Pure Talk has a heart for our veteran community, for America, and for freedom. So go to PureTalk.com Unashamed to grab their best unlimited plan for just 29.95 for life. Make the switch in as little as 10 minutes, keep your phone, keep your number, and start saving with unlimited for Life for just 29.95amonth. Again, that's PureTalk.com unashamed to switch to my wireless company, PureTalk. Taxes and fees are not included. Some restrictions apply. See PureTalk.com for details. Offer ends 12, 7, 25. So you gotta act fast.

[Jason]

So then, you know, I found myself thinking, okay, well, how do you convince somebody of this? And I'm like, well, you go to the Sermon on the Mount and here's Jesus taking their law and kind of turning it on its head, saying, okay, it's in the law that you shouldn't murder. But I'm telling you, if you get angry at your brother, you're just as guilty. And you're like, well, what's his point there? Well, he makes the point over and over that it's from the heart where these things are coming. The law provided wisdom into what God wanted them to do. But in every case, if you go back and read Israel's history, like Exodus 32, they get the laws and what do they do with it? Well, they start bowing down and worshiping a different God. It's not working. They're not keeping the law. And that pattern continues through the whole nation of Israel from when they get judges and prophets and priests, like Zach said, but they still keep doing the same thing. The law was exposing their weakness in keeping that law, going back to Exodus.

[Zach]

So what was the point of the law? Think about what was the point of the law. You have to get this. If you don't get this, you miss the whole thing. The point of the law was they couldn't get up the mountain. Why? Because they weren't Good. And so here's the instructions. This is what you got to do. You got to do this to get up the mountain. You got to do this to be with God. And there was that divide. And that's why this idea of atonement, which is we're right in it right now. We are in the atonement of Christ right now because we're in his death in John 19. But you read Hebrews, and he says that in Hebrews 9. Now, even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place for holiness. Now, why does he say an earthly. Who cares? Because that's the whole thing. What's the vortex city? Where's the place for holiness? Where's the place where heaven and earth meet? There was a place with the first covenant where heaven and earth met. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstands. This is going back to Exodus right here. This is tabernacle language. There were lampstands, There was the table, there was the bread. There was the bread of the presence. This is what it was called, the holy place. So when you walk into the tabernacle, you got the holy place where you got the lamp stand on the left, you got the bread of presence on the right. And behind the second curtain, it's all in Hebrews, was a second section. What was it called? Well, that was called the most holy place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, which was a golden urn holding the manna, which you referenced in the last podcast, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. So the Ten Commandments, the law above it, were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat of these things. We cannot now speak in detail, because there's a lot of detail. Go back to read it. In Exodus, there's several chapters on this. These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section. So the priests would go into the first section performing their ritual duties, but into the second, only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for unintentional sins of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates the way into the holy places is not yet open as long as the first section is still standing, which is symbolic for the present age. According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body and Post until the time of Reformation. So when you read this, you think, I hope that whatever that system was, I hope that that shadow is no longer. Which was the whole prophecy of Jesus. That was his whole prophecy. That thing's coming down and now, guess what? Now the Vortex City, the Holy of Holies, that's now going to be in people. So why do I need to go back to these regulations?

[Jason]

Because I think they don't understand that the fruit of the Spirit is love. God is love and love is perfection. When you see that word perfection, we did a rabbit hole on that. Even the rich young ruler, because it came up and he's like, no. He told him it's all about the Commandments. And I'm like, no. He looked at him and loved him and said, if you want to be perfect, go sell everything you have. Because love experienced is the new law, if you want to call it. You know, just think when he said a new command. I give you what? Love each other as I have loved you. This is love for God. Not that you love him, but that he loved that he loved you enough to send his son to die for you. And I think that's what's being missed. So. And I think it's called the Law of love, just because of cleverly saying it fulfills. It's kind of what Jesus did on the Sermon on the Mount. It's forming a higher form of wisdom that the first written law showed to Zach's point that we're flawed, we're weak, we're not going to keep it, we bow down to other gods. But to be in Jesus and have his Spirit in you is teaching you the greater wisdom, which is was the purpose of the law was to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So when you're loving, you're fulfilling the written law at a higher form of wisdom in Christ. I mean, that's what, to me, what it comes down to. So. So that's why when people say, well, how many laws, how many times you've been asked this? How many laws are we under from the Old Testament? What is your answer to that?

[Zach]

How many laws are we under from the Old Testament?

[Jason]

You've never been asked that. How many of those laws still apply to us today? I've been asked that a thousand times.

[Host]

I'm not under law.

[Jason]

Well, that's what I say. You know, I say none. And they're like, what? But you can make a point of saying, well, you're technically under all of them. Because in Jesus, it's either all or none.

[Zach]

I was going to say all you're under all of them, but here's the deal. That they're all fulfilled in Christ.

[Jason]

Well, exactly. And I think that, trying to explain that, I have found that very difficult in this study.

[Zach]

Because it's the law. When you say the law, Paul says the law is put into effect so that sin might increase or trespasses might increase, that we may become aware of our sin. The way that works is that God, he gave us the instructions. And also, you got to separate. Some of these are ceremonial laws. There's some other stuff at play here that it's not cookie cutter, because some of these laws were very specific to Israel and what they were doing in the Exodus. So that is a key point. Some of these were definitely ceremonial laws, but you adhere to these laws. But the problem is when you look intently into it, you realize, I can't actually, I'm not going to keep this. And the reason why you're not going to keep it is it's real simple, is because you don't want to. I mean, that's the problem, is that we have a want problem. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, but I do want. I want what's not mine. And so I have this want problem because I'm a. I'm a professional wanter. And the reason why I'm a wanter is because what you said earlier, Jace, I'm a worshiper because the want is just another word for worship. To desire is to worship, to want. Desire. Longings, affections, these are all synonyms. And so my problem is that I want the wrong thing. So then when you think, well, what is the solution going to be? If I know the way, if I just do that right there. But the problem is I don't want to. Well, the solution, I don't have the means because I can't want that. I need new affections. I need new desires. So that really is a key part, I think, of what we left out about the crucifixion of Christ. We haven't left it out on this podcast, but what we've left out in the church. A key reason that Christ was crucified and buried and resurrected was so that he could ascend. Well, so why does he need to ascend? Well, he said it's better for you that I go, because if I don't go, he's not going to come. And so the coming of the Holy Spirit is a part of the gospel. The coming of the Holy Spirit is part of the reason why Jesus was died, buried and raised from the dead and ascended so that the Spirit would come. And when the Spirit comes, he's going to live in humans. Now he's going to live in your body. You're going to become the holy of holies. And when that happens, now you're unified with Christ by his Spirit. And what you want actually changes now. You actually become a. A new tent, a new dwelling place. Not the one built by human hands, but the one built by God in heaven. And so that's why when you look back at that old way, if you look at it as a final destination, you're missing what the Hebrew writer says. He calls it a copy. He says it was necessary, though, for the copies. This is in Hebrews 9:23. It was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, with these laws, with these rituals. The copies, not the real thing, but the heavenly things themselves. Oh, well, that was purified with a better sacrifice than these. It's the one we're reading about in John chapter 19. For Christ has entered not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly as the high priest enters the holy place every year with a blood not of his own. For then he would not have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. That's the hope, man. I hope I don't have to go back into all those copies. Why would I go to the copies when I got the real thing in Jesus? Why would we worship copies?

[Host]

Know the old song is the most wonderful time of the year.

[Jason]

Duck season is upon us.

[Host]

So in our family, we, when we think of Thanksgiving, we think of duck season. And it really is. Has always been tied in because of Dad. I think, Jace, that it's a. It's a grateful. It is a thankful time for us for what the Almighty has blessed us with. And so one of the things that we've been talking about, the podcast, is our good friends@duck stamp.com have showed us that the Federal Duck Stamp is a way to continue to show thankfulness maybe in a way you hadn't thought of before. 98% of every dollar goes straight to conserving wetlands and wildlife.

[Jason]

You look around and see life bursting forth in God's creation and you're able to contribute to that. So it's a good thing.

[Host]

It's a great reminder that stewardship doesn't stop at church. It extends to the woods we walk, the rivers we fish, and the skies that our ducks fly. So before you pass the sweet potato pie this Thanksgiving, remind your family to pick up their duck stamp. It's one way to give thanks and also live it out loud as well. So whether it's digital or physical, they've got [e-mail] unashamed. It's so easy, and it makes a big difference. That's duckstamp.com unashamed. Get yours today. That's so good. And Zach, everything that your whole rant that you just did, if you go back and read Romans 6, 7, and 8, that's exactly Paul's point. The point you just made. Every, every point you just made, he makes in Romans 6, 7 and 8.

[Zach]

I didn't make the point. Hebrew writer made the point. I literally, I was just thinking, I'm just reading this text and it just comes off the page, just the word for word.

[Jason]

You read it in a tight fit jacket that's cutting out the circulation. And I thought you were fixed to blow like a tea kettle. You're so excited. You had all that passion and that coat was restricting you. And I thought, boy, if his, if his hat blows off right now, I.

[Host]

Was expecting him just to strip out of that coat at any second.

[Zach]

Jason, I saw, I saw Alex, I saw a news article. Alex Jones and Russell Brand, they, they stripped off on their, on their show. Maybe think about, they pull, they're like got their shirts off and they're flexing. I wasn't going to do that.

[Jason]

Well, you didn't have theological tension. You just had tension from the lower body that was about to explode. So look, I want to read this because it goes in with what I'm. I was getting at that, that verse that you quoted in Colossians 2, because he says in verse 13, when you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins. We got that part down. But then he says, having canceled the written code with its regulation that was against us and stood opposed to us, he took it away, nailing it to the cross. So whether you want to call it the written code or legal indebtedness, which, because this hit me. When you read Romans 13, I hadn't noticed this before. When Zach was talking and he brought that up, it hit me.

[Host]

I should have read this.

[Jason]

In this last debate. I had Romans 13:8. Listen to what this says. I mean, if there was ever a smoking gun in this debate, here it is based on the backdrop of Zach quoting Hebrews on what Jesus pulled off. Not. Not as, you know, give us more copies. But he went into heaven itself.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Romans 13:8, Let no debt. Well, there's that same terminology. Remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man. Now look at this phrase. Has fulfilled the law. So I guess we need to find out what that means, the word fulfill. Because, you know, remember when Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it? And that's why I framed it around the wisdom. You know, where it says, we Christ is our wisdom and our righteousness. That's in First Corinthians 1. But anyway, it says he fulfilled the law. The commandments, do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet. And whatever other commandment there may be, which there were 613 of them in Exodus, and that wasn't even all of them. That's just what we have.

[Host]

Yeah, there were more.

[Jason]

Yeah, there were more. But it says whatever other commandment there may be are summed up in this one rule. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law. Now, it's either fulfilled or it's not in Jesus. So once you surrender Jesus and you have his spirit, you have a greater sense of wisdom in moral behavior, your purpose, you're. I mean, all sorts of things, but it's right there with you. So it's no longer under compulsion, because you got to go check the law and make sure you're keeping them all. Yeah, it's. You have his spirit in you that speaks to your conscience. That's why you have all these verses in Hebrews that says he wrote the law on your conscience to know. So that's where this is coming from. You love, you experience it like. Like Jesus and ultimately become like Jesus on the earth.

[Host]

Which goes back, James, to your point you made earlier in the podcast about Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and going to behind the law or beyond the law, into the heart of a human being. The problem with the law Is at any point. It is. It is just what it is, but it's not big enough. It's like saying we're Americans because we have laws. I mean, we're Americans for a different reason. We're Americans because we love freedom and we love something larger than just our laws. I mean, that's. That's not a big enough reason to be something. And so I think when you try to put yourself back under that setting, like Zach said, you have missed the point.

[Jason]

Of what?

[Host]

Of why Jesus came. I mean.

[Zach]

Yeah. And to your point, I think you mentioned Romans 8 earlier. Yeah. There you. I think it's a semantical argument. If you're saying, like, something like, well, Romans says that Romans 8, there's a law of liberty, you know, or law of the spirit. That's a law. Yeah. But it's in contrast with the law of the Mosaic Law in the sense of. He's contrasting those two things here. There's two versions of a debt. Or what you just read, was it.

[Jason]

Yeah, well, I just said the argument when I brought up Colossians 2 is like, well, that's not the law. That's legal indebtedness. And I'm like, okay, well, I wish I would have thought of that verse in Romans 13. Because then he's like, let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one another.

[Zach]

Again, contrasting the word debt. And Paul does the same exact technique in Romans chapter six when he talks about slavery. Going back to Bob Dylan, he said, you're going to be a slave whether you like it or not. The question is, you want to be a slave to righteousness, or do you want to be a slave to sin? And that's. That Willard quote is so helpful for me in understanding this when he says that in Christ you can do whatever you want. In fact, in Christ, you can murder all you want, which will be none at all. That's the thing, though. That's the reason why those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they'll be filled. Well, why? Because the thing that you want to do, you can actually do. And that only can come through the law of liberty. And so to contrast, when you see these contrasts, you have to look at what we're actually contrasting, and you get hung up on the word and you're missing the whole metaphor.

[Jason]

But you said that so fast that people are going to be confused by that. They're going to be like, what? But just think of. Think about the first sin. By doing that, you're no longer doing what you should have been doing. There's the problem. It's like he created you for a purpose. And it's not like something you had to conjure up. It was just, you are the image of God, reflect him. And you're like, no, I'm not going to do that which leads to sin. Therefore, as you're doing the sin leads to you not reflecting him. You're now reflecting that you're your own God or some golden cap.

[Host]

Well, plus, think about, think about what Paul said in Romans 7, Zach, whenever he said, once I was alive apart from law. And then the commandments sprang to life. So he even shows the picture that we're born not under law. We're born reflecting the innocence of our Lord and Savior. And at some point, we're convicted by law. So even, even today, you see the clear line of the purpose of the law. And it was never for us to stay there. It was never for us to reflect there. It was never for us to live there. We had something greater in mind and we even experience that as human beings to this day. And a lot of people don't believe that, but that's true.

[Zach]

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[Jason]

Or.

[Zach]

Call my friends at Brightcor at 888-404-9677 for up to 50% off plus free shipping, because their knowledgeable team will help you decide if Kimchi One is right for you. That's 888-404-9677. Or visit mybrightcorps.com unashamed Again, though, if you look at the whole point of this podcast now, I don't think we started this way, but it certainly has evolved into this, really, the podc in the last several years. And I think now the point that we're trying to make every. Every episode is that Christ has saved you to live in Him. Yeah, yeah, he saved you from your sin. But if that's. If you're just stopping at justification, like all these isms and all the stuff that. Like the theologies that Jace, you know, alludes to, that we would push against. The issue with all of it is you're. You're. You're trying to take the whole idea of Christianity and you're reducing it to am I saved or not? Meaning am I justified or not? Instead of what is the life that God is calling you into? And what he's calling us into is life in him, which is actual freedom. And that's why my hardest thing in all of this is probably just believing that that's true. Do I really believe that God can change the desires of my heart? Can he really take someone who is just in the most depraved lifestyle that you could ever possibly imagine? And can the Lord heal that person? And can he reshape their desire? Well, going Back to Romans 13, listen to this. He says that this is right after what Jace just read. Besides this, you know the time that the hour has come for you to wake up from sleep, for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. So if salvation is only about your justification now, how do you make sense of that? He says it's near. So the idea here is that salvation is something that we're growing into because it's beyond just our justification. The night is far gone. The day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the daytime. Not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy, but put on the Lord Jesus and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires. I mean, you read that picture and you start thinking About. Well, that's the stuff they were doing when they made that golden cap. They were out there having orgies. That's the stuff they were doing when they were offering up the babies to baal. They were around there having orgies. You think, man, that, like. Because that's where the end of all that goes. Just unbridled sexual exploration and expression. And you think, man, once you kind of go there, can you ever really pull it back? Well, yeah, you can, because he's sitting here telling us, don't go into that again. Get out of that. Don't do that. That can actually be redeemed. The things that enslave you, the desires that enslave you, don't have to enslave you. You can actually be a slave to righteousness instead. You can. And that's a hope for everybody. It's actually possible. Not possible. It's guaranteed if you walk with Jesus. Guaranteed.

[Jason]

Well, since we've already hijacked this podcast, I just thought another clever thing in this light. So when you get to 2 Corinthians 1, I mean, this is just fascinating to me. Paul's writing this letter and he's like. He starts talking about a simple thing that he had planned on visiting them in. 2 Corinthians 1, verse 13. No, I think it's verse 15. Yeah, verse 15. I had planned on doing this, and you can tell they got upset about because it didn't come through. So he gets down to verse 17, and he's like, do I make my plans in a worldly manner? So that in the same church, I say yes, yes, and no, no. Well, then he launches into a thought about what we're talking about, because he says in verse 18, but as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not yes and no, for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by Silas and Timothy, was not yes, no, but in him, it's always been yes. And you're like, where's he going with this? And you see a contrast between yes and no and from worldly viewpoint and from a heavenly viewpoint, because verse 20 says, for no matter how many promises God has made, they're yes in Christ. Which I make the argument is in contrast to trying to keep a law where. Because then you have the situation where you have to say no.

[Host]

It's always.

[Jason]

Remember Nancy Reagan on the drug problem?

[Host]

Yeah, just say no.

[Jason]

You know why it didn't work. There was nothing to say yes to. Because most people who are on drugs, they're going to be like, you need to quit doing drugs. And they're going to say, why? Well, whatever you're fixing to say is going to be the key life transforming thing. And so then he says, and so in him, it's yes in Christ. So through him the amen is spoken. And then you know what he starts talking about? The Spirit, verse 21. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He has anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit and a guarantee on what is to come. And so that's why all the, all the framework in the New Testament letters are talking about putting off the old self and putting on the nose the new self. Yeah, because it's the same thing. What you can't do has been crucified. The law, he nailed it to the cross. And it's just like 1 Peter 2 when he says he bore our sins on a tree. So what's that next phrase? So that we might die to sins? I mean, what kind of statement is that? It's kind of like Romans 6, you know, it's like, why shouldn't you go out there and sin since we're under this wonderful grace. And of all things, he gives an illustration about being baptized, saying, we died to sin. How can we live in it any longer? And I thought of another example. In First Corinthians 1, the verse I've been quoting throughout this whole process. In verse 30, it says, it is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God that is our righteousness. He's become that holiness and redemption. Well, where does he go from there? Chapter two, it's all about the Holy Spirit. I mean, I'll pick it up. In verse 12 it says of chapter 2, we have not received the Spirit of the world. The same thing he said in 2 Corinthians 2, same exact phrase. We're not looking at this as in a worldly way about yes and no. It's all about yes in Christ. Then he says, taught us by human wisdom. So, so what's he saying in verse? No, I skipped down 13, 12. We have not received the Spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom or earthly wisdom or worldly wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. I mean, it's just so fascinating that we as American churches have missed what we can do. It's like I was answering Zach's deal about what? We're free to do all sorts of things and to say yes to all kinds of things. In Jesus, that is the emphasis. It's just hard to wrap your head around.

[Zach]

Well, because when you think about in football, they always tell you this. It's true that the best defense is a good offense, because if you're on the offense, then guess what? Then their offense is not on the field. So the best way to keep their team from scoring a touchdown is if you're just on the field and you're marching forward. And I think that's the principle here of what it's like to be in the spirit. And the reason why in Christ, all the promises are yes and amen is because we're not saying no to what we can't do or no, we're saying yes to live in Him. And as you do that through a lifetime, then your desires are shaped. And again, going back to what I said earlier, how else can Christ say, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. You'll be filled because you can actually taste what he has offered you, as opposed to, you go chase sin. It's slavery. Because the Bible says in Peter they're slaves of depravity. Because you never get what the promise is, but you actually do in righteousness. And that's why it says it's a law of liberty. That's why we say it. That's why it's called liberty and freedom, because you actually are truly free. Now, granted, it is a progressive growth, but not because God hasn't offered it. Because it takes us a while to actually believe these things. And we believe them in greater measure, the more mature we get in our walk with Christ.

[Jason]

Well, you went to football metaphor, but I'll go with the famous cheesy quote that I believe in where a guy, a pastor, said prisons and church buildings are filled with captives of people who can't keep the law. Thought it was profound. You know, it's like the point was, deep down, we all want a law.

[Host]

Well, I'll close this with the Phil quote. Just because you're under lock and key does not mean that you can't be set free. So there you go. That's a quote from dear old dad. So, unashamed nation, what you just witnessed was a entire podcast with nothing we had planned to do today that was completely because of Zach's coat. And that led us down this road.

[Zach]

We'll give credit to the Holy Spirit.

[Host]

Maybe we will, because it was a pretty good stuff, I have to admit.

[Jason]

Well, and Jesus is fixing to accomplish what we just said. He is going to nail that to the cross. Whether you believe.

[Host]

Way to bring it. Way to bring it back.

[Jason]

Come into the freedom in Christ. It's awesome.

[Host]

All right, so we'll try to do better next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.