Ep 1213 | Jase Revisits His Embarrassing First Episodes & Ties Eden’s Trees to Jesus’ Cross

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1213 | Jase Revisits His Embarrassing First Episodes & Ties Eden’s Trees to Jesus’ Cross
Date: November 20, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, the Robertson family dives deep into the transformative journey of understanding scripture, reflecting on their spiritual evolution since the podcast’s early days. They explore the tension between law and spirit in Christian life, link the trees in the Garden of Eden to the cross of Jesus, and emphasize the importance of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s daily walk. Jase grapples with the embarrassment of early misinterpretations, while the crew discusses how new creation and wisdom are themes rooted in both Old and New Testaments.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Growth and Evolution of the Podcast

[01:06–03:32]

• The hosts acknowledge feedback from listeners about spiritual impact and reminisce about the earliest episodes versus their current understanding.
  • "If you went back and you listened to our first run at the Book of John and then compared it to what we've been doing for the last few months, it would probably be a welcome evolution to a better understanding." — Allen (03:09)
• Jase feels some embarrassment over early episodes and recognizes how much their perspectives have grown.

2. Revisiting Scriptural Interpretation

[03:59–07:39]

• Jase wishes he could revisit John 3 for insights he missed, especially the "heaven and earth connection" in Jesus' words.
• The group discusses the scene in John 19, where Jesus wears the crown of thorns and is presented by Pilate:
  • The Jewish leaders justify crucifixion through the law, missing the spiritual truth.
  • "Here he is the son of God, technically, he wrote the law. And they're like, oh, he must die, because we have the law written right here. He's claiming to be the son of God." — Jase (05:36)

3. Law Versus Spirit

[07:39–12:25]

• The group unpacks why people gravitate toward strict boundaries and law-keeping rather than living by the Spirit.
  • Allen relates resisting sin (esp. pornography) to putting the old self to death, citing tools like Covenant Eyes.
  • Zach adds:
    "That's what we're doing here. That's what this whole thing is about. Dying to self, being born again... we're not going to understand that until we first understand the story of Jesus being the archetype of the one who would be crucified for our sin." (09:18)
• They liken spiritual maturity to raising children: starting with clear rules and hoping those turn into discernment as they grow.

4. Jesus and the Law: Interpreting Claims of Blasphemy

[13:40–17:50]

• Zach clarifies that the Old Testament law condemned blasphemy, not simply claiming to be the Son of God — an interpretive twist the leaders used.
  • "If they'd had the Spirit of God, they'd have been like, well, hold on, is the claim true? Because if the claim's true, well, that's true." — Zach (14:44)
• The real threat Jesus posed involved undermining the temple power structure, not just theological claims.

5. The Temple, Holy Spirit, and the Living Water

[18:23–24:33]

• Jase reads John 7:37-39, connecting Jesus’ promise of “streams of living water” to the coming of the Holy Spirit.
• Zach links this to the image in Ezekiel and Revelation: water flowing from God's temple, ultimately fulfilled in believers.
  • "John 7 is, you are the temple. You are the place from which the stream of God, the river of God, is going to flow out from people now." — Zach (23:42)

6. Law, Spirit, and Ministering as New Creation

[26:17–32:58]

• Jase articulates the move from law to Spirit as becoming ministers and ambassadors of a new covenant.
  • "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Make sure you're on the right side of that in your faith..." — Jase (29:24)
• Allen references Galatians 4: slaves versus sons—the Spirit marks our adoption, not law-keeping.

7. Eden, Wisdom, and the Two Coverings

[33:06–39:47]

• Jase traces the themes of wisdom and Spirit from Proverbs back to Eden.
  • Notably, Proverbs 1:23 is shown in the Hebrew as, "I will pour out my spirit on you," which NIV translates as thoughts—Jase laments this mistranslation.
• Adam and Eve’s attempt to cover themselves with leaves versus God’s covering with animal skins serves as an image of human versus divine solutions for shame and sin.

8. Practical Theology: Discernment and the Role of the Spirit

[41:35–56:16]

• The group reflects on how knowledge, wisdom, and life "by the Spirit" enables Christians to move beyond mere rule-following.
  • Adam and Eve’s failure is not just lawbreaking but a failure of trust and wisdom.
• Jase discusses communion—the fruit of the vine—the same creation can be misused (as in drunkenness) or redeemed (as in the Lord’s Supper).
  • "You're now imaging God. But we focus as when we're young in the faith on, oh, I just need to not do the things written in the law. And now I have the ability. It's like the Spirit is there just to help you not do those things. But it's a flowing out to be Jesus, you know, and it's done through love." — Jase (26:17)
• Ephesians 5: contrasts debauchery with being filled by the Holy Spirit as true wisdom.

9. The Blood of Abel and the Blood of Christ

[48:17–50:59]

• The story of Cain and Abel is connected to the cross; Abel’s blood “cries for vengeance,” but Jesus’ blood “speaks a better word” — forgiveness and reconciliation.
  • "Abel's blood hit the ground, and it says that it cried, avenge me. And so the blood of Christ speaks another blood, because another word, a better word, because it says reconcile, you know, grace." — Zach (50:45)

10. Final Rabbit Hole: Heaven, Earth, and New Creation

[52:31–End]

• Jase ties together the imagery of trees, wisdom, and sacrificial systems as culminating in the cross:
  • Jesus as the new tree of life; the cross as the redemptive answer to Eden’s loss.
  • Christians, as temples, are the new meeting place of heaven and earth, guided by the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Episodes:
  "It would be embarrassing what we thought the first time on how much growth..." — Jase (03:24)

• On the Law & Jesus' Execution:
  "Here he is the son of God, technically, he wrote the law. And they're like, oh, he must die, because we have the law written right here." — Jase (05:36)

• On Spiritual Maturity:
  "A slave only does so because of law, because of what he has to do. A son carries the responsibility of a father." — Allen (30:39)

• Edenic Imagery:
  "Jesus on a cross is going to be the new tree of life in death, of sin, breaking the law, and then he's pouring out the Spirit." — Jase (50:59)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening reflections & missing Phil: 01:06–03:09
• Embarrassing Bible misunderstandings & podcast growth: 02:19–03:32
• Law vs. Spirit: Modern believers’ struggles: 07:39–12:25
• Jesus’ claims, temple politics, and blasphemy: 13:40–18:23
• John 7 and the outpouring of the Spirit: 18:23–24:33
• 2 Corinthians 3 & the “letter kills, Spirit gives life” theme: 26:17–32:58
• From Eden to Proverbs to the Cross: Trees, wisdom & clothing: 33:06–39:49
• Cain and Abel, the better word of Christ's blood: 48:17–50:59
• Practical illustrations of Spirit versus law using wine: 52:31–56:16

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Tone and Original Language

Throughout, the panel maintains their trademark blend of sincerity, familial banter, biblical depth, and Southern charm. They are transparent about their own growth, use humor in the midst of unpacking deep truth, and are eager to connect theological insights to everyday life.

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Summary Takeaway

The episode is a rich theological conversation about how Christian living moves from rule-keeping to Spirit-led wisdom, anchored in the story of Eden, the ministry of Jesus, and the new creation reality believers now embody. The Robertsons weave together scriptural themes, personal vulnerability, and practical exhortations, leaving listeners with a vision of Christian maturity rooted in the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit.

Transcript

[Allen]

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[Allen]

Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. We were talking before we started rolling out live that, you know, there's a lot of you out there that have communicated with us that this podcast is really impacting your overall spiritual growth. And I think every once in a while it's behooves us to just say how much we give praise to God for that, but also just appreciate, you know, the input that we get back from you guys because obviously this is a deep dive Bible study podcast. We do some nonsensical things and we do a lot of rabbit holes, but they're rabbit holes that have a point of a greater spiritual understanding. So I just want to start off today by saying thank you, Unashamed Nation, for your willingness to go with us on the journey. A lot of you have said to me personally, you know, we miss Phil. I just want you to know we all miss Phil. Is impact of being here in person. But that's part of the legacy that keeps us going forward is that, you know, we have to continue that. So yeah, we talked about a lot, Jace, because the idea is, is that man, everything you get into the Bible leads you to something else that's even more amazing than what you already knew.

[Jason]

Yeah, that's why it's difficult to when somebody comes up like you were telling a story before we, you know, a woman comes up and says, hey, in episode 53 and then asks you a question, we're over 1200. You're not going to remember episode 53. And there's a good chance that whatever you said, you might have expanded on it in the last five years.

[Allen]

I may have changed my opinion about that.

[Zach]

Well, yeah, people quote like Martin Luther, for example. And I'm like, which Martin Luther are you quoting there? Because, you know, people evolve in their. Their opinions and their takes evolve over time. And I think about this podcast. I mean, let me ask you all this. How much of the early days. I mean, how much. I think we've evolved quite a bit in our understanding of the kingdom, for sure. I mean, at least in particular, the way we articulate it now.

[Allen]

I think if you went back and you listened to our first run at the Book of John and then compared it to what we've been doing for the last few months, it would probably be a welcome evolution to a better understanding, especially on the kingdom.

[Jason]

Well, that's a nice way of saying. It would be embarrassing of what we thought the first time on how much growth.

[Allen]

But we were sincere. The thing about it is you have to give grace because you're. We were sincere in our study. We just. We learned a lot.

[Zach]

Well, even Jay said last podcast, not on the podcast, but after we recorded he. We were, you know, we keep talking and he said, I won't tell you what all we say. But he did say. He said, man, I want to go back and redo John 3 again. He said, I, I. And that. And that was just a few months ago, and you've already like, man, I missed that one. I should have brought.

[Jason]

There was a smoking gun there that I missed about the heaven and earth connection which keeps coming up. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the spirit gives birth to spirit. And I saw the same point here where we're at in John 19. So I'm wanting to back up and make a point about this after this profound statement, which we covered over two or three podcasts. When Jesus comes out, you know, he has the purple robe on. They have a crown of thorns. And Pilate says, here's the man, which is such a profound statement, because here is the man. The man. Osiah loves that phrase. But I was gonna say before the verse, I wanted to get to just part of a review of where we're at in verse seven. Because the Jews are justifying him being put to death based on the law, and they could not be any more wrong in their assessment. But it's so crazy to me that they're using the law because in verse seven, they said, we have a law, and according to that law, he must die. Because he claimed to be the son of God. And it just kind of hit me when I was just reading, like, where we're at and going back and reading John 19, I thought, how many times do we practically try to enforce the law or have that mindset which we're no longer under the law, we're under the spirit. We have the thoughts of God, the wisdom of God in our heart that's kind of discerning on a daily basis what we should do to please God. And. But how many times do you see people doing that? And here he is the son of God, technically, he wrote the law. And they're like, oh, he must die, because we have the law written right here. He's claiming to be the son of God. Are you not claiming to be the son of God? You kind of see that argument coming forth, and, boy, you don't want to be on the wrong side of that application.

[Allen]

Well, and you see, Jason, the problem is they missed the one possibility of truth. What if he is the son of God?

[Zach]

Yes, that's kind of the big smoking gun.

[Allen]

I mean, what if we're doing this and he is the son of God? You talk about miss the boat.

[Jason]

But how many arguments? My point is how many arguments? Because we're doing so many Bible studies and to just continue the theme about our podcast. I think one reason we do so many nonsensical stories and all as part of the podcast, but we basically go to a cave where we're studying the Bible, sometimes for hours, and having other Bible studies, and you're kind of in this weird, lonely place where you're just seeing all these. You're drinking from a fire hose because you're discovering all these great points that you never have discovered before. And then you're interacting. But it's all. In my case, I'm not having an actual conversation. I'm emailing a Bible study. And. But then when we come together, well, to us, this is us actually being with other people, talking about the Bible. So we're catching up. I feel like I've walked out of a cave and, oh, there's actual human beings walking around. And so we're catching up in a way, even while we're filming the podcast and then getting into how this kind of works practically with other people. So that. That's a lot of this.

[Allen]

Well, now you. You mentioned before we started, Jace, that a lot of folks that you're studying with and talking to the. The problem is law is easier for most people to grasp because it seems very simple. It's like, well, just give me the statement. Give me what I, you know, show me the boundary. Give me the can and can't do. And whereas the spirit seems very frightening because it's like, well, wait a minute. So my conscience is going to play into this. My. My idea of putting something to death is going to do that. It's sort of like that with the pornography. We can just say, pornography is wrong. Right. And our friends, Zach at Covenant Eyes, I mean, they're great to say we want to bring in accountability, but at some point, there has to be a decision you make on a consistent basis that somehow I've put to death the old person that wants to go and look lustfully at material that's not even real. I mean, it's just. It's fake in the sense that it isn't real for you. And so at some point, it's beyond just saying, I have a commandment and more of, I've put that to death. I mean, is that.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's. I think that's the hard part. That's the John 19 passage we're getting into is the death of Jesus, which is the prototype for how we're going to experience freedom, too. That's why I don't think we've ever done something like we did with Covenant Eyes, which we did an entire podcast on, just like pornography, sexual sin, a lot, because that is just destroying young men. I mean, look, even if you're already a believer, maybe you embrace biblical masculinity and all that kind of stuff. We are talking about putting to death the mysteries of body. So, yeah, the tools these guys [e-mail] are just awesome. They can help you guys out. So I do want to encourage you. We got to be protecting our family from just a cultural rot that's happening all around us. And it's going to take us embodying that spirit, what Jesus is doing right here in John chapter 19. So let's do it together, guys. You can join us also, but go on over and visit the websites of frontline21.com and if you missed the pornography episode that we did, do, I want to encourage you to go back and listen to it. I think it was episode number 1197 of Unashamed. So check it out. But yeah, I mean, that's what we're doing here. That's what this whole thing is about. Dying to self being born again. Romans 8. Paul says that to be led by the spirit is to put to death the misdeeds of the body. And that comes through our liturgies and our rhythms and the way that we live. But we're not going to understand that until we first understand the story of Jesus being the archetype of the one who would be crucified for our sin. And then you see, what will come out of this is actually something incredible, which is salvation offered to humanity through his death and burial and resurrection. But that it is. So you're not going to get the death to self until you first get the death of Christ.

[Allen]

Well, and Jase, I mentioned this to you earlier, before we came on, that the idea is to understand being guided by the Holy Spirit. It takes some time, living by that same guidance. It's like when you have your children, you know, you have some pretty basic rules early, and they understand that. I mean, there's a law in your household. You can do this, you can't do that. You make it real simple. And their young minds are shaped by that. They understand that there's some things I can't do, there's some things I can. But what you're doing in the big picture is you're training them for one day when they're not under your roof anymore. But they have to then make decisions that are right based on some sort of righteousness that's in them, that you've tried to create an atmosphere to happen. And so the course of their life as they're growing up, and then they become young adults, you see that. That's why we look at our kids now. All of us have grown children. And you realize that you did what you could do to get them prepared for where they're supposed to go. That's what God does with us. I mean, we become a new creature, and the Holy Spirit lives in us. It takes a while to figure that out and to follow that spirit's lead. And so I think naturally we want to go back to law, because it's like, well, I'm comfortable there, because just give me the basics on what I can and can't do. But that's not living. That's not what we're talking about. That's, you got to put that to death and bring something new into existence. So, Missy, now that we're grandparents on this podcast, we're always looking for that gift that's just right. And people are looking at the same thing. For us, our good friends at Aura Frames, which is a new sponsor of the podcast, we're super excited. Have this digital picture frame and tell us a little bit about why you think That's a great gift.

[Missy]

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[Allen]

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[Jason]

Yeah, because you feel like if these Jewish leaders would have had the spirit of God in them, the thoughts of God, the wisdom of God which the spirit represents, they would have been able to discern that. One question you said, well, what if he is the son of God? Yeah.

[Allen]

What if it's true?

[Zach]

Well, because the truth is is that it doesn't say anywhere in the Old Testament or their law. It never said that you should be put to death for claiming to be the son of God. What it does say is, I think in Leviticus I had this pulled up. Leviticus 24. Is it 24? Yeah, Leviticus 24. Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly was stoned and whatever, whether foreign or native born, when they blaspheme the name capital N, they are to be put to death. So it wasn't the claim itself. It's that they were interpreting the claim as blasphemous because they did not ask the question that you just said, if they'd had the spirit of God, they'd have been like, well, hold on, is the claim true? Because if the claim's true, well, that's true.

[Jason]

And I think that's why Jesus referred to himself as the son of man, which is just the son of a human. But he also cleverly referred to himself as I am, which is every time he did, they would say, you're blaspheming. Because they were familiar with that phrase going back to Exodus 3, which is interesting that Jesus did that. He wasn't going around with a poster saying, I'm the Son of God. He was just doing things that represented him as the Son of God. It's very interesting. And I think that's why he did it that way. To your point, Zach, because if he had just flat out said it, well, I am the Son of God, instead he would say my Father, which is. What is the inference there? Well, if you keep referring to God as your father by saying that, you're declaring yourself as the Son of God.

[Zach]

Well, he did say that I and the Father are one, and they didn't like that.

[Jason]

But because he is the inference. It's not an inference. But I'm just. He's cleverly with. With that Leviticus. Where Was that at 24 in mind?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Because that he had to make this last until he got to a cross. Because that was the plan. He's defeating the powers that caused all this. I mean, I think it's a. There's something in there that's very powerful about how he.

[Zach]

Well, it's interesting on this front because they probably would have had an understanding by this time, which we're in the Second Temple Judaism now in the text here. This is the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonian invasion. Cyrus rebuilds the temple. The whole Hebrew canon kind of ends with this. With this Messianic Cyrus figure who's going to rebuild the temple. He does rebuild the temple. We're in Second Temple Judaism. I think they probably would have understood the Son of Man reference to also be a Messianic prophetic term for like, this is like they're thinking back to Daniel and they're like, right, I agree, I agree. And because what they got really mad about is that he was talking about his whole temple conversation that he said in John 2, because they're coming back and they're saying, well, you know, he said that he would destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days. Which he never said that he said that they would destroy the temple and he would rebuild it in three days. Speaking of his body. But it is interesting that the things that he's getting, what's really setting them off. I don't even think it's that he claimed to be Son of God. I think that it's what he's saying about the temple Structure, because that was their locus of power. And so they're looking at this and they're like, wait, if this is true, this guy's going to like, rob us of our power. And so then he. So they're. They're coming up with this other thing over here about blasphemy. But that.

[Allen]

Well, they even said that, Zach, in John 11, remember, after Lazarus was raised, they said that. They said, if this fellow continues to live, Rome's going to come in and take away our place, our temple. And so they actually said that behind closed doors in John 11. So your point is well taken. That's exactly what they were thinking. And think about another thing that you don't read about in the Bible, but that, you know, from Jewish history during this era, is there were a lot of people claiming to be the Messiah, that they were the one, they were.

[Jason]

The Son of man. Yeah, I think there was one on every street corner. Well, I want to. Let me read this just far as review, because Jesus, by doing this, going to a cross, being resurrected, and then pouring out his spirit in this new covenant, where is discussed at length by Paul in various ways about the difference in faith and the law, keeping the law, the difference in having the Spirit of God now appeal to your conscience on a daily basis, this kind of renewal every day versus trying to follow the letter of the law, that profound statement in John 7. I keep going back to it and I know we've read it many times, but I think it is something that you got to keep in mind to make sense of all this. When he said in John 7:37, on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, he's making a point loudly, if anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him. And so this is what's making people mad. And John zeroes in on that because he gives a Let me tell you what this meant. Why is it making so many people mad? By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time, the Spirit had not yet been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. And so you realize that some people, when they heard this, say, well, surely this man is the prophet, or is he the Christ? Still others asked, well, how can the Christ come from Galilee? There's no way they're saying, this cannot be the Son of God because he's from Galilee. And so the people were divided verse 43. And some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him. So I think it gives kind of the background here. But he brings up that spirit, the spirit had not given. So fast forward to Paul's explanation. This is one of them I wanted to read. And I realize I'm taking this a little bit out of context for just to make a point that I think is clever, but. But I want to read this in 2 Corinthians 3, 3. So watch how Paul views this argument from a practical thing that he's talking with to the Corinthians. In verse three, he says, you show that you are a letter from Christ, which is an interesting way because he's kind of bragging on them in one way that your lives are a letter from Jesus Christ himself, the result of our ministry, written not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God. So there's this transition from being under law, the Torah, the 613 laws, and all the things that they had come up to go along with it. And now how do you live with the spirit of the living God? Not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts. So this is the transition that. That pouring out of the spirit that he was talking about, which by the way, is why he said streams of living water. And then you get all this language about when the spirit was poured out. It's like water. You remember Acts 2 when it's poured out. Well, what kind of metaphor is that? You pour out water and it's unpredictable. It's falling everywhere, it's just coming out, this unleashing of the water.

[Zach]

Well, it's the woman at the well. It'll become in you a spring welling up to eternal life. I want to add this to what you're saying though, because it's super key what I said about John 2, when Jesus said, destroy this temple and I'll rebuild it in three days. Because I don't think you're taking the text out of context at all. I think.

[Jason]

Well, the part I'm fixed to get to is what I'm going to be clever about.

[Zach]

I want to hit this before you get there because John 19 is about the destruction of the temple according to what Jesus said in John 2, Jesus said, Destroy this temple and I'll rebuild it in three days. Talking about his body. I mean, that's what the text says. So when Jesus says that, he calls his body the temple. So when you get to John 19 and there's this, we're at the scene of the Crucifixion. Well, what is he talking about? This is the moment that he talked about in John chapter two. They are destroying the temple, and in three days, in fact, Christ will rebuild it and he will raise from the dead. This is so connected to the coming of the Holy Spirit that this is one of the biggest issues. I've said it before this podcast, you cannot divorce the death of Christ and the burial and the resurrection of Christ from the coming of the Holy Spirit. That's the point of it. That is the point of it. So when you read that language out of John 7, which was, I don't know, it just hit me. When you read it, it'll become, what was it again? Whoever believes in me, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. You know what popped in my mind when you read that was Ezekiel 47 in Revelation 22. That talks about out of the temple. A river is flowing out of the temple, and that's in both Ezekiel's vision and the consummation in Revelation 22. What's he talking about? That John 7 is, you are the temple. You are the place from which the stream of God, the river of God, is going to flow out from people now. And so that's only possible if the Holy Spirit indwells us. And he's only going to indwell us if Christ dies buried and is resurrected in his sins.

[Allen]

So, Missy, since the last time you were here, there's a lot less of me than there once was.

[Missy]

I don't know what to expect every time I see you, Allen.

[Allen]

I'm just, you know, I'm just hanging in. You know, the holidays are here now and used to be that was like, oh, man, here we go. Because I'm already trying to cut back, lose weight. I've been on the PhD program. As you know, Missy, I've lost a total now of almost £75.

[Missy]

That is amazing.

[Allen]

Which is pretty incredible. And it's really. I mean, I'm healthier than I'm in a long time. I was on quite a few meds. I'm down to just a smidgen of my high blood pressure meds. Almost completely off of that. I don't have a CPAP anymore.

[Missy]

Really.

[Allen]

Totally now. Sleeping at night, not snoring. It's fantastic. The folks at PhD show me exactly what to eat, how to handle any situation, and how to enjoy the holiday meals without guilt. If you're watching this on YouTube, here's a picture of me at the beginning. Here I am now, obviously looking a lot better. £75. 45 weeks into the program, Missy, Lisa and I did a four and a half mile climb up a mountain in Oregon, which I never would have been able to do a year ago. So it's been great. Right now For November only, PhD weight loss is making it easier to get started. They'll waive your consultation fee, add two weeks to your program for free, and even cover the cost of your food just for booking. You'll also get their five Steps to Reset the Scale book for free. Mention the code2026start when you call PhD Weight Loss at 6441900 or visit myphdweightloss.com that's 864-644-1900. Tell them that Al sent you.

[Jason]

Oh, I. I'm glad you brought it up. And the practical explanation of what you're saying. I've just now come to realize what we should say every time you say something like that is because it's flowing out of you. The law. Because how many new Christians, their number one question is they come to Christ and they say, okay, what can I not do now? It's such an immature, which is understandable. It's like, tell me what I do and tell me what I don't do. And they're looking at it still from a law viewpoint in, okay, now that I understand Jesus. But then they still want to put themselves under law. How am I going to not do the things I was doing that got me into the tr. Into all this trouble? But you're getting a different picture by the Spirit, because it's now what you're called to represent and be. You're now imaging God. But we focus as when we're young in the faith on, oh, I just need to not do the things written in the law. And now I have the ability. It's like the Spirit is there just to help you not do those things. But it's a flowing out to be Jesus, you know, and it's done through love. You love other people, which leads to sacrifice and these kinds of things. In my opinion, it's flowing out. It's like the illustration of the Dead Sea. I mean, what's the problem? It doesn't flow out. Water goes in, but it doesn't flow out. And so what's the result? It's literally a dead sea. So the sea has to flow out. This living water, the Spirit, it's going to flow out. And the fruits of the Spirit is a good illustration. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self Control. All these things are flowing out. So with that in mind, I wanted to read the last two verses of that 2 Corinthians 3. I left off on verse 4. So he said, it's written by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, verse three, but on human hearts. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. Because you now have his Spirit, his thoughts, his wisdom in your heart. He has made us competent as ministers. Well, there's that what I'm saying, the vocation you're now ministers. Second Corinthians 5 says, Ambassadors of a new covenant. There's a new covenant not of the letter, but of the Spirit. So it's not of the written command, but it's the Spirit who is now thinking with your thoughts and giving you the ability to discern on how to be a minister on God's behalf. But this last phrase is what I wanted to get to that. I said I'm taking a little bit out of context for the letter kills in John 19. It's literally killing Jesus because they're basing the law. They have this law that he's blaspheming because he's claiming to be the son of God, which Zach awesomely depicted was. They were inferring that because of the statements he's making. But since he was from Galilee and a normal fellow, they're like, well, there's no way. So it's blasphemy. So now we have the law and they're applying it and they're literally trying to kill him because of the law. But the Spirit gives life. But I wanted to read this because when you're putting yourself under the law, how graphic is this passage? The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Make sure you're on the right side of that in your faith, that you're acknowledging that what I'm doing, I'm doing because of the Spirit of God living in me under the new covenant and I should be a minister of that instead of some kind of rule keeping system based on the old law.

[Allen]

It reminds me, Jason though, our old friend Jim McGuigan me, when he would say legalism, it's a killer, you know, that was the idea that it would kill you. So Jace, when you were reading that, actually I thought of this when you were talking about the timing of the festivals in the, in the previous podcast. But now the, this verse like just jumps off the page at me for what you Just read. And you said Paul went through this in other books. In Galatians 4, he makes the same comparison we're talking about as a son versus a slave. Meaning that inside a structure in a Galatian household, they would understand that slaves and sons were both there together. Both of them were under the ownership of whoever was the leader of that house. But he wanted them to look at their responsibility in two different ways. A slave only does so because of law, because of what he has to do. A son carries the responsibility of a father. And listen what he said in Galatians 4. 4 In comparison, what we just have been talking about when the time had fully come, and that's those festivals that we talked about before. But when the time had fully come, God sent his son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law. How do you do that? Well, he died on a cross. He was put into a tomb, he was raised, he went back to the right hand of the Father. And then what happened? That we might receive the full rights of sons. How did that happen, Paul? Because you were sons. God sent the spirit of his son into our hearts. The spirit who calls out abba, Father, So you are no longer a slave, but a son. And since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. So it's that same exact imagery told through a different prism to a different group of people. But it's exactly what we're talking about Here in John 19 is the vehicle by which this redemption under law began. And so it's just man, it's just. It's everywhere. You look in almost every letter to see the power of what we're talking about here with the Holy Spirit and how that that then becomes our pathway of death to life, which is very powerful.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And as we enter into John 19, I think we should maybe look into this. Read these verses. Are we in verse 17?

[Jason]

We are, but I was looking up a point. Sorry, I got distracted. I think part of this, when I was going kind of down a rabbit hole of, kind of tracing back where this all started, back to the garden. Because I do believe, and I'm convinced that Jesus is introducing not only a new covenant, but a new creation, which is why you get all this new creation language after his death, burial and resurrection, and the pouring out of the Spirit. And I think this temptation to put ourselves under law, it comes from books like Proverbs, you know, where the whole thing is about knowledge and wisdom and basically law keeping. But I discovered I forgot where I heard this, and I Looked it up last night because I was in a Bible study and we went here, but I'm kind of doing it off the top of my head right now. But I had never noticed this because I get so mad at the NIV for poor translations. And the reason I hadn't noticed this is because they missed something in here. But I want to just try to attempt to do this and get your thoughts on it. But you know how Proverbs starts when it says, and you have here Solomon, the wisest man ever. He's depicted at that. And he starts this off and says, verse 2 of 21, for attaining wisdom and discipline. The proverbs of Solomon. For attaining wisdom, discipline, understanding, words of insight. For acquiring a disciplined and prudent life, doing what is right, just and fair. For giving prudence to the simple knowledge and discretion to the young. Let the wise listen and add to their learning and get their discerning. And let the discerning get guidance for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. And so then verse seven, which is a famous verse. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. What I did not know is in verse. When you get to verse 22.

[Zach]

You'Re.

[Jason]

Going to love this. He says, how long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? And then 23 says, repent at my rebuke. Then I will pour out my spirit on you. Now, I looked it up in the Hebrew. It's the word Ruha. The same spirit that was hovering over the waters, the same spirit in John 7. But the NIV translates it thoughts. That's why I've been saying that like you're having the thought, because they translated it Thoughts of God. But isn't that something I will make known to you my teachings? Well, he combines this knowledge that comes from the law with him one day pouring out his spirit, which I found fascinating.

[Allen]

So they say, tis the season. Everybody's thinking about what we're going to do for Christmas. But we've got another idea for you for gifts this year, and that's Brave Books. And we happen to have a brave book author on set today. Happen to Missy. We love brave books.

[Missy]

If you're wondering, like, what to get your children, we like going by the simple rule of something you want, something you need, something to wear and something to read. So if you want to do that, sign your kids up for a subscription to Brave Books. They'll be happy.

[Allen]

They help parents raise strong families. They teach biblical values through powerful faith filled stories. Each month Brave sends out a new book that teaches lessons like courage, forgiveness or standing firm in your faith. Right now when you subscribe, not only will you get a new book each month, plus Missy and Jeff and Jessica's book, you will receive for free, which we have right here on the set. So that's great. As a bonus, you'll also get access to Brave, their new streaming platform packed with safe, uplifting shows like Iggy and Mr. Kirk with our old friend Kirk Cameron. So visit bravebooks.comunashamed to get this exclusive offer. Use the code unashamed for 20% off your order. That's bravebooks.com unashamed Raise them with truth. Raise them Brave.

[Jason]

What also I found fascinating is when you get to chapter three in verse 18 talking about wisdom. Because look, this all is talking about being wise. Who is wise and understanding, let him show up by his good life. You know that's in James, but they're getting that all from this book of proverbs on how to be wise. But look what he says in 3:18 talking about wisdom and figuring out how to apply the command. So first you have this reference of one day he will pour out his spirit. And then verse 18 it says, she is a tree of life to those who embrace her, those who lay hold of her will be blessed. And the reason I'm skipping there, when you go back to chapter one in verse 28, he gives this picture of this fruit tree 28 of chapter one. Then they will call to me, but I will not answer. They will look for me because he addresses people who won't listen to him since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord. Which is why, by the way, he's going to pour out his spirit. Since they would not keep my advice and spurn my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. But he's using that fruit language. This tree which takes you back to the garden for the waywardness of the simple will kill them and the complacency of fools will destroy them. But whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease without fear of harm. And I read all that to say that's what the Spirit is. It's the Spirit of God. You're listening to the Spirit so intimately and personally rather than try to trying to apply a list of rules because of our human weakness. Then we start Manipulating the laws and figuring out, oh, what's the least amount I can do to be right with God, or what, whatever that goes. Because the bottom line is the law just exposed the sin instead of actually doing something about it. Because they continued to be unfaithful to the law up until Jesus redeemed us from the law. Which is my point.

[Allen]

No, that's good. I love that, Jason.

[Jason]

So you see where I'm going with that. It's like, so when Paul in 1 Corinthians, when he says, Christ is our wisdom, it takes a whole new meaning onto it. And when you go back to the garden, you're seeing by that choice, it's like, here's a tree. And I think their response kind of shows you this earthly versus heavenly response. Because that tree of knowledge of good and evil, when they chose not to trust God and they ate of the tree. Something interesting that I noticed last night is the first thing they did after that was they actually took the leaves off the tree and make coverings for themselves. We always focus on the second thing where God made skins and put it on them. But isn't that funny how once they chose not to trust God, this idea of shame, this idea of the consequence for them not trusting God caused them to make themselves look like a tree, try to put leaves over them, and then God comes in, gives the clarity of what just happened, and then he covers them with skins, which is now saying that something was sacrificed. That's good. Yeah, I never thought about it. There's two coverings. It's one that man did on themselves, which is kind of silly in that, oh, no, what just happened. But it shows you how it affected their conscience. So what does man do if they're just under a law? They try to cover it up in embarrassing ways, which I'm glad they did.

[Zach]

Well, here's what it is. Here's what it is they're taking. So you got to go back to the beginning. It's really good that the creation was given to man, who was also created to cultivate and to have dominion over. And so the idea would be man sits as a priest, Adam sat as a priest, which means he would take the creation, the gifts from God, he would turn them, he would cultivate them and turning them back into praise to God. So there's not a barrier between heaven and earth. It's actually all one. It's just one. They're working in conjunction together. So what man effectively does, and woman for that matter, but mankind does post fall is, yeah, they take the creation itself. And instead of cultivating it, they use it as a barrier between heaven and earth. That's the separation. They use the creation itself, the leaves.

[Jason]

Off the tree, which is the earthly look. Maybe I should read this. And I think it'll make sense why I went to Proverbs and why it led me here. Because what is Proverbs all about? Wisdom. So let's just pick the story up. In Genesis 3, 4, where it says, you will not surely die, the serpent said to the woman, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will will be like God, knowing good and evil. Now watch this next phrase. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye and also desirable for gaining wisdom. That's why when I went from Proverbs, I came back here, because it's all about wisdom. Which is why I zeroed in on that 122 and 23, where it says, one day I'll put my spirit, so you can listen to me and know my thoughts. But she took some and ate it. So then she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were open and they realized they were naked. So here was the point I was making. So they took things of the earth, right? So they sewed fig leaves together and make coverings for themselves. There's your earthly shameful act of doing something that was legally wrong in an attempt to have wisdom. And so then later on, you know, here the man and his wife hear the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden. And the Lord God called him, where are you? I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid. I was naked, so I hid is what Adam said. And he said, then God said, who told you that you were naked? So he's like going through the process of what they've done. Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? Because this is what humans do when they do something that they knew they shouldn't have done. They start lying. They start trying to cover up their shame in earthly ways. The man said, well, and then we start blame shifting. The woman you put here, well, she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it. Then the Lord God said to the woman, what is it you've done? And then he goes through all the consequences for this, and he brings up the evil one's involvement, he's cursed. And then when it says verse 22, and the Lord God Said the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to reach out his hand and also take from the tree of life. Which is why I read that from Proverbs 3:18 and eat and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. Where is that? Where he clothed them. I missed it. Oh, that's 21. The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And then, then he said what I just read. So I found that fascinating.

[Allen]

We talk a lot on the podcast about all of us, you know, contributing to the sort of battle for life in the pro life movement, but kind of in different positions. Lisa and I are kind of on the front end, more on the abortion side, but we all have a love for life, obviously a love for trying to bring babies and help moms. And one of the lines I often use when Lisa and I speak is that the Lord, the creator of the cosmos, decided to come to earth as a baby in a mother's womb. And then from her perspective, really as an unplanned pregnancy, from Mary's perspective. So she embraced the plan of God and of course that yes brought Jesus into the world. Today, countless mothers face that same moment of decision when they see their baby on an ultrasound. They're scared. They're unsure their moment to say yes could pass. But we can make a difference in helping them say yes. Because of the generosity of listeners like you, Preborn Network clinics can provide immediate support. Maternity clothes, diapers, counseling, and so much more, helping thousands of mothers embrace life. Over 380,000 babies have been rescued through preborn, yet thousands more are denied the chance to live every single day this holiday season. Don't let another life be lost. Be the hope for hurting mothers and at risk babies. Just say yes to life today. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or visit preborn.comunashamed that's preborn.comunashamed. every gift is tax deductible and impacts eternity. Well, and to take that one more level, if you go to Genesis 4, you see the next generation now of this fall. Zach, this idea of now we've got this post heaven and earth relationship because they've been banned from the garden. And so you see Abel, who still has a heart for God because he's tends the flocks and he's giving a sacrifice to God, the best of what he has Cain, who is doing the just the opposite, he tends the fields. So Jace, he's a leaf man, you know, he's growing things, but he doesn't give God the best. And so God is pleased with Abel's sacrifice, not Cain's. And what's Cain's response instead of a heart towards God that says, I want to try to do what you want me to do, he kills his brother.

[Zach]

He's jealous.

[Allen]

His response is jealousy and then murder. And so we then devolve generation to generation until we get to Genesis 6, where every thought of man is wickedness, save for one family. So I think you see the results of what happens as you move away from what God intended for humanity. And you just see it right there clearly through a family structure. And this guy, same thing today where.

[Zach]

This ties in, the casting out of the garden is that when God says that they can't eat from this tree and live forever, the reason why is because to allow them to live in the created state of the garden, where the whole point of the garden, as we've said before, it was the original temple. So it was heaven and earth working together, where Adam and Eve were actually unadulteratedly communing with God, taking creation, consuming it for food cultivation, all these things having dominion, turning it back into praise of God. Now they've driven a wedge in between them and God. They put that barrier, they actually took the creation. And now they're blocking the connection between heaven and earth in the form of I don't want to be seen. And God is in an act of grace, is looking at that situation. He's saying, to live in this state forever would actually be hell. And you see that as it plays out because Cain was in his own hell. I mean, you could name names. I mean, you see this thing run out. And to use the creation in that way and not in communion with God is really what hell is going to be. That's kind of the definition of hell. To be shut out from the presence of the Lord on the day that he returns.

[Allen]

And I like the fact that even after the fall, Abel still had a heart that was trying to do what was right. And I'll say this one more thing, Jason, before you speak. In Hebrews 12:24, when the Hebrew writer is describing the third temple and the kingdom, Zach, he says, jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, is in this kingdom. And to the sprinkle blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. And that's the link back that we're talking About. I mean, that's the idea that this is an eternal covenant that goes on now forever with God, which Abel's. Abel's sacrifice couldn't do.

[Zach]

But Abel's blood hit the ground, and it says that it cried, avenge me.

[Allen]

Exactly.

[Zach]

And so the blood of Christ speaks another blood, because another word, a better word, because it says reconcile, you know, grace.

[Allen]

Exactly.

[Jason]

Well, what I wanted to say, that's why I brought this up when they're justifying killing him, handing him over because of the law. And you're looking at the big picture as far as a new creation being established, because basically Jesus on a cross is going to be the new tree of life in death, of sin, breaking the law, and then he's pouring out the Spirit. And I think all these things connect in that light going back to the garden, which is what I was getting at, which is why I went to Proverbs and back to Genesis. But I wanted to give a practical illustration of this, because even in. When you think about Jesus establishing his new covenant, and he's like taking the bread and he's taking the fruit of the vine and making this illustration. Well, the fruit of the vine is an interesting illustration because talking about wisdom, because it can be good. Because Jesus is saying, I guess because it was red and it was the fruit of a tree, going back to the two trees in the garden, whether it's an illustration or literal. But it can also be bad because you have plenty of verses, especially in the book of Proverbs, saying, well, don't get drunk on wine, but you could also take a sip of it and remember what Jesus did as he represented the new covenant. Would you all agree with that?

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Jason]

So I wanted to give you an illustration of that because on a practical way, this is how the Spirit helps you to discern. And I wanted to read. It's kind of a comical section in Proverbs 23, talking about getting drunk. But I wanted to give an illustration for this. So this is Proverbs 23:29. He says, who has woe, who has sorrow, who has strife, who has complaints, who has needless bruises, who has bloodshot eyes? So he gives you a riddle. What is the answer to all those questions? If you see somebody, I'm a drunk person. Well, the next verse says, those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine, do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup. And I looked up the Hebrew of this. It's like the phrase for it winks at you. It's like. It gives it a. Like it's got a face saying, ooh, come on. And get this. When it goes down smoothly. But here's why I wanted to read this. Because verse 32 says, in the end, it bites like a snake. Well, does that sound familiar? Where's that language coming from? The evil. And what we just read in Genesis 3 was operating like a snake. But here's something that's good because it's the fruit of the. The vine. It can be good, but it can also be bad. So how do we discern what the problem is? So then it says, and it poisons like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, and your mind imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the sea, on the high seas, lying at the top of a rigging. They hit me, you say, but I'm not hurt. They beat me, but I don't feel it. And when I will wake up so I can find another drink, it's like this. It's describing the life of someone who's an alcoholic. The reason I read it is because when you fast forward to what God presented in Jesus, not only to forgive us, to get us out from under the written law, but to give us the Spirit, will you take a passage like Ephesians 5, and it says, verse 15, you know, be very careful how you live. Not as unwise, but as wise. It goes back to that same thing theme that when Eve was desiring wisdom because it's hard to make these decisions. And the whole book of Proverbs. But, you know, right there at the first, he's like, one day you'll know, you'll be able to listen to me, because I'll give you my spirit. And then watch what he says in verse 17. Understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart, always giving thanks to the Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I just really think it's a great picture where what Jesus is accomplishing is not only forgiveness, there's way more than that. He's given us the ability, through this death and death to ourselves, that we can now house God. And like Zach said, the place where heaven and earth meet. And we're literally getting the thoughts of God through the Spirit in our heart every day. That's what it means to be living by the Spirit. Every day you're able to discern what God wants for your life because you have the spirit in your inner being.

[Allen]

Which is what we've been witnessing is his three years with this group of men that have not understood but believe in him. And once he's resurrected and then leaves them literally by flying away and says, I promise the Holy Spirit is going to come and then you're going to take this to the next generation, which is exactly what happened. So, man, that's another big picture, another rabbit hole that really shows the importance of where we're at in John 19. So next time because we're out of time. So next time on the podcast, we'll pick it up from here. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.