Ep 1214 | John Luke Can’t Master a Famous Robertson Pastime & the Bible’s Most Important Book

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: 1214 | John Luke Can’t Master a Famous Robertson Pastime & the Bible’s Most Important Book
Date: November 21, 2025
Host: Tread Lively with Phil, Al, Jase, Zach, John Luke, and special guest Dr. Justin Jackson

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the significance of the Book of Exodus in the Christian narrative, exploring its themes, impact on the New Testament, and its parallels to the journey of faith. The Robertsons, joined by Dr. Justin Jackson, dive deep into how Exodus underpins the Gospel story, the meaning of God’s presence, and how apparent weakness in biblical figures becomes a testament to God’s power. They also interlace their signature humor and family stories, reflecting on poker games, exercise habits, and their ongoing Bible course partnership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Banter and the Robertson Pastime

• The episode opens with playful jabs about working out, with jokes about mental health and fitness routines.
• The Robertson family poker tradition is discussed, including John Luke's questionable skill level and the quirks of different family players.
  • Notable Moment:
    [03:00] John Luke: “They call me the whitewater rafter. I'm just running the river.”
    Dr. Jackson: “You're a huge river guy.”

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2. Introducing Dr. Justin Jackson and Bible Course Collaboration

• Dr. Jackson, connected through Hillsdale College, shares the backstory behind the expanded Exodus course and its verse-by-verse approach.
  • [04:41] Dr. Jackson: “It was enjoyable… it really is almost verse by verse that I go through it.”

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3. What is the Most Important Book of the Bible?

• The group debates the Old Testament’s most significant book.
• Dr. Jackson makes a bold case for Exodus as foundational, even above the Gospel of John.
  • [05:58] Dr. Jackson: “Exodus is the most important book in scripture because all of the New Testament is meditating on… the Exodus.”
  • The Exodus theme of moving from slavery (to sin/death) toward freedom is unpacked as central to Christian identity.

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4. Exodus as a Lens for the New Testament

• The “new Exodus” motif in the Gospels and Paul’s letters is emphasized.
  • [08:12] Dr. Jackson: “It makes radically clear those things which were maybe slight shadows still in the Exodus... For Matthew, it's Satan; it's the demons, but ultimately, they are the masters of that death and they need to be crushed.”
• Medieval interpretations and allegories, especially the Pharaoh-Satan connection, are discussed.
• The difference between literal retellings and theological storytelling is touched on, relating it to how families narrate Bible stories to children.
  • [10:22] John Luke: “Yeah, I’m rewording and emphasizing certain things so they can understand it in what they can as a three year old.”

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5. Weakness and Subversion as Means of God’s Power

• The repeated theme of God using the weak—second-borns, women, social outsiders—as the avenue for deliverance and blessing.
  • [15:33] Dr. Jackson: “There’s nothing… You can just think of Goliath whenever he looks at David and he's like, are you gonna come at me with sticks?... there is a strength in finding the weak and lifting them up.”
• Discussion includes Rahab, Tamar, and the unusual inclusions in genealogies, highlighting God’s pattern of working through those overlooked by society.
• Moses’s transformation is reflected upon, from hesitant shepherd to glowing mediator of God’s glory.

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6. Moses’s Character Arc: From Reluctance to Radiance

• Dr. Jackson explains Moses’s journey from hiding his face from God, to longing to see God’s glory.
  • [23:09] Dr. Jackson: “To begin as a stutterer who says, ‘please, this is no job for me,’ to your face is glowing with the glory of God… that’s pretty good character development.”
• The “right hand of God” motif and Moses’s mediation for Israel is highlighted, including midrashic stories about God coaxing him toward leadership and mercy.

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7. Temple, Tabernacle, and the Presence of God

• Connections are made between the design of the tabernacle and Egyptian temple architecture, arguing for the historicity of Israel’s time in Egypt.
• Rich symbolism around the curtain, cherubim, and the longing for direct access to God's presence is explored.
  • [29:37] Al: “I've thought about it in terms of that curtain that separates the Holy of Holies... when you get to the New Testament, you realize in Christ that now we do have access to the Father.”
• The veil motif is carried into Paul’s writing (2 Corinthians 3), tying together Exodus, presence, and New Testament fulfillment.

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8. The Divine Name and Christological Fulfillment

• Discussion about God’s revelation of his name (“I AM that I AM,” “I will be who I will be”) as an assertion of ongoing presence.
  • [35:54] Dr. Jackson: "My favorite translator... Everett Fox... 'I will be there, howsoever I will be there.'"
• Discussion on Targums, the “two Yahwehs” idea, the Logos, and how early interpreters prepared the ground for understanding Jesus as the incarnate Word.
  • [38:33] Al: “So when you get to John 1, then you're like, 'In the beginning was the Logos...'”
• The point is made that atonement is about access/presence, not just transaction, drawing on the etymology of “atonement” as “oned”—oneness or union.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Dr. Jackson on the meaning of Exodus:
  [06:23] “My answer is pretty simple. It is a freedom from death. I take that as our existential curse… But what did our God come and show us?... It’s about living a sacrificial life.”

• Dr. Jackson on weakness and genealogy:
  [17:34] “It always seems to be the weakest... the younger brother, whatever it is, women. That’s supposed to show us the strength of God. He can take the least.”

• Dr. Jackson teasing the production team:
  [10:44] “You sound like Adam now… It wasn't even my fault, mind you. It was the production team. So I blame them completely.”

• Reflecting on atonement:
  [39:53] Dr. Jackson: “The first time the word atonement is used in the English language is in the Tyndale Bible... It just meant one.”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:06–02:59 | Family jokes, banter, poker tradition, John Luke’s "river" luck | | 04:35–05:38 | Introduction of Dr. Jackson and the Exodus course | | 05:38–08:10 | Why Exodus is central to the Bible | | 13:34–19:13 | God working through weakness, subversion of Pharaoh, genealogies | | 23:09–25:50 | Moses’s spiritual journey and character transformation | | 27:06–30:50 | Tabernacle/Eden parallels, temple imagery | | 35:54–39:53 | The divine name, God’s presence, John and the Logos, atonement | | 39:53–end | Course wrap-up, final reflections, next studies preview |

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Freedom in Christ parallels the Exodus: The entire New Testament, especially the Gospels and Paul’s writings, frames Jesus’s work as a new or fulfilled Exodus—liberation from not just physical slavery, but death and sin.
• God works through the overlooked: From Moses’s stuttering to Rahab’s outsider status, Scripture consistently elevates the “weak” to display divine strength.
• Presence is the goal: At every major point—tabernacle, temple, atonement, incarnation—God's intention is to dwell with His people.
• Invitation to deeper study: The group encourages listeners to join their ongoing, accessible Bible courses for richer understanding and community.

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How to Join the Conversation

• Sign up for the next story course (“The Story of David”) for free at: unashamedforhillsdale.com
• Engage: Share insights or ask questions through their online platform.

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This episode combines practical faith insights, humor, and deep scriptural reflection—inviting listeners to view Exodus as the heartbeat of both Old and New Testament faith.

Transcript

[A]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[B]

I feel like I'm one of the Marvel people next to the Incredible Hulk over here. I just try to get on camera.

[A]

Look at him.

[B]

Captain America.

[C]

He must work out sometimes.

[B]

It's very bulky sometimes. We should.

[C]

We should do a workout together.

[B]

Yeah, let's do that. Just wait. I'll come together.

[C]

Does he still have any workout program courses.

[D]

Oh my goodness. The whole. There's a gym in every single. Well, the reason why is because they're starting to push that if you have mental problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That one of the best things you can do is go exercise. It's awesome.

[B]

That explains a lot about.

[A]

That's why you're so mentally stable.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Stable guy. We know.

[B]

Or he's very mentally ill. That's why he's so fit.

[D]

So. Yeah. So they. They all do it on. On campus. Awesome. Cool. Profs. Oh yeah.

[A]

So you're going to work out with him?

[D]

Not me.

[B]

But no.

[A]

Come on. You're not working with.

[B]

I'll just. I'll just walk over to his house and back. That's my workout. So I don't. I don't work out with people that look like Christian.

[D]

I find it helpful to have a five pound weight on my glass of bourbon that. Yeah. My right arm's like.

[B]

Now I'm gonna work out with him. That's my workout right there. So. Welcome back to Unashamed for Hillsdale. We got Justin Jackson with us. The doctor is in the house.

[D]

Glad to be here.

[B]

Yeah. And so just act like you have like a troubled student in is we Christian. And so you're right across and you're just so this whole podcast. You're just like trying to somehow save this young man himself.

[D]

Got it. Okay.

[B]

So just so we'll know we were talking about in as we were getting to know you better that you like to play poker.

[D]

Correct.

[B]

And are you. Are you good at it? Do you play other professors or how does that.

[D]

Yeah. So I'll say this just so my friends don't mock me. I'm not very good.

[B]

You sound like I said you were like Uncle Sa the last time you were here.

[D]

No. So I play with guy from accounting finance. Oh yeah.

[B]

Get some card counters.

[D]

Oh yeah. And we all kind of know what we're doing and it's a great. Oh actually probably the. I think probably the best player of all of us. I don't know that I want to say that completely, but he's actually the director of our music program at the college. He's A heck of a player, James Holloman. Really good player.

[A]

He does mathematics right? Right.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, and, and he plays in a lot of. He plays in a lot of tournaments.

[B]

So my brothers like to play and then my uncle S likes to play. But we call uncle size nickname is the ATM because he seem. The flow seems to go one you never get.

[E]

Oh well, his. There's no mathematics involved. It's just pure gut feeling. So you never know what is going to happen. I mean, any hand could be.

[B]

He'll.

[E]

He'll bet the same with pocket. Aces are seven, two or three, four. It doesn't matter. He's betting and it's big.

[C]

If you, if you ever get a text about coming to join to play poker, do you text back like, I will be there. However, howsoever.

[D]

Howsoever, I will be there. Would that be your response with my money? Yes, that's what it. I will be there.

[C]

Howsoever, I will be.

[A]

Just finished Exodus. Not to the Exodus story. Right.

[D]

Just as long as I bring my $300. I will be there. Howsoever, I will be there.

[B]

Well, Jay says, because, you know, he, he talks about a lot on this podcast and he says it's not gambling because he's, you know, because people are like, ah, you know, gambling, you guys, you know, talking about that. He says not gambling when you can't. What does he say? When you don't.

[A]

When you don't lose?

[B]

When you don't lose, I think is what he says. It's so he's saying he never loses is why it's not gambling to him. Oh, well, you know, I don't. He's a bit arrogant too.

[D]

Yeah, I don't consider it. I don't consider it gambling except whenever I lose on the river and I have to scream at someone for gambling, tell them that they're polluted. This game, it's a sweet science. Quit beating me on the river. So that's where the luck and the gambling comes in.

[E]

That's my whole strategy.

[D]

You're a huge river guy.

[C]

That's all John Luke does.

[E]

They call me the whitewater rafter.

[D]

I'm just running the river.

[B]

River raft.

[A]

We're in the book of. We'll finish the book of Exodus or the story of Exodus. And we. If you're not taking these courses with us, you can go to unashamedforhealstyle.com and take the courses. They're free. They gave you eight episodes of Exodus, so that I was. Because Genesis, you only had five.

[D]

Correct.

[A]

So we expand the offering.

[D]

Yeah, they gave me eight, but that was only because they were in a really bad predicament. They had paid the production company to be on campus to shoot another online course. And for whatever reason, that course got shelved. The person couldn't make it. And so they called me and they're like, the production team's here. Like, can you give us Exodus? Like, please. Oh yeah, you were losing. But I'm not doing five, I'm not doing six. I'm gonna get. And you know, as you guys know, we do 1 through 20, chapters 1 through 20, skip the temple and all of those. And then chapters 34 to 36, that's not much. I got eight episodes out of that. So I think everyone will find it's a very more thorough course. And being able to go through it, I mean, it really is almost verse by verse that I go through it. It was enjoyable.

[A]

Well, we asked that question at breakfast. Again, we were kind of, what's the most important book in the Bible? They're all important. But we were just talking about the question was the Old Testament, what has the most significance? And. And you lit up when I asked that question. And you seem to have a very strong opinion.

[D]

Yeah, because my correct answer is supposed to be if I'm going to be. If I'm going to be properly orthodox, I shall say the correct answer is the Gospel of John. So there are certain hierarchies in historical biblical criticism and John is at the top. Right. But no, that wasn't my answer. My answer was the Exodus. I think Exodus is the most important book in scripture because all of the New Testament is meditating on, on the Exodus. If, if Exodus is from slavery to freedom, we ask, well, slavery to what? Freedom to slavery to what? Freedom from what? What is that slavery? It can be. It. It can very easily be slavery to sin, disobedience. I have no problem with that. I think that's about right. I think that's why God has to exercise his patience so much throughout the entire book. But if you were to push me and say, okay, so from slavery to freedom, what's that really about? My answer is pretty simple. It is a freedom from death. I take that as our existential curse. I take that as a fear of dying makes one inherently selfish because you're worried about yourself. But what did our God come and show us? And it's not about, it's about a self offering. It's about living a sacrificial life. As Christ says, take up your cross. Well, take up your cross so that you just go and eat dirt and that's that. I don't know about that. But if the whole point is that there's eternal life, what are we freed from? We're freed from death. That means all of. If you take that just basic existential fact and you believe it, you trust in it, you have faith in this, your life looks very, very different because you don't worry about all sorts of material things that you have, because the most material that you have, your life is gone, except not now. So I think. And that's why I think it's the most important, because it pretty much sets up all of these gospel narratives. I mean, I think much of Matthew is just kind of demonstrating the way.

[A]

In which kind of a new exodus.

[D]

It's a new exodus, or we could say it's a fulfillment of the Exodus. It makes. It makes radically clear those things which were maybe slight shadows still in the Exodus. It makes it abundantly clear what's going on here. It makes it abundantly clear who the principle, the principles and principalities, the powers and principalities in this world actually are. And so, you know, for Matthew, it's Satan, it's the demons, but ultimately they are the masters of that death and they need to be crushed. It's funny, you know. So I'm a medievalist by training, and oftentimes when you get medieval stories about the Exodus, so in the Middle Ages, they like to rewrite Bible stories, which is fascinating. Not translate, but rewrite them, and the changes they make to the narrative, you get great theological insights because you say, oh, you just made that detail up. And it's not that they're being unfaithful to the text. They're just trying to tease out the theology of the text. And all the time, Pharaoh, guess who he's related to from all of these Christian medievalists, he's always related to Satan or a demon. But it would make sense, because whom does God crush? Pharaoh, Whom does God crush? Satan. You see? And so I think it's a vital importance for the New Testament.

[A]

I thought it was interesting.

[D]

Go ahead.

[E]

Oh, well, I just want to. I think it's interesting you said the medievalists would make things up. Because my thought process, my immediate reaction was like. And I think for a lot of people, especially who tend more towards legalism, would be like, oh, they're making stuff up. That's like an immediate. No, like, that's not true. But then I thought we actually do that all the time when we tell the Bible stories. To our kids. Like we reword the story and emphasize certain things, like the story of Noah. Like when I'm reading a kid's book to my kids about Noah, or I'm just telling them a story of Noah, I'm emphasizing God's love, how God is the Savior. And I'm just totally leaving out some of the parts of like the flood, you know, different parts, so that they'll. Their little three year old minds can understand what I'm saying.

[A]

But you're not reading Ezekiel 23 to them. Yes, exactly.

[E]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm rewording and emphasizing certain things so they can understand it in what they can as a three year old. I just thought that was interesting.

[D]

That's right. Yeah, no, that's right. You know, I know we're talking about Exodus, but one of the things that got me in trouble on the Genesis course, it wasn't even my fault, mind you. It was the production team. So I blame them completely.

[A]

You sound like Adam now.

[D]

Thank you. Whenever the.

[B]

We blame them all the time. They're just out of sight over at.

[D]

The beginning, whenever they have that clip and it goes, how does the snake walk? How's the snake talk? Right. There's actually a real explanation in the course, if they just look up the supplemental material. But they knew that was a hook. They knew people are going to be intrigued by this question. But I was trying to make that point. You've never thought about a literal walking, talking snake? Because what do we point to? That it's Satan.

[E]

Right.

[D]

And it turns out that's in the rabbinic tradition. So it's funny, the thing that got me in trouble, I was actually trying to show them. Here's how you could read it, literally. And there's in fact a rabbinic story that goes along with it. But we always fill in those details that aren't actually there inside of the text. Nothing there tells us that it is an angel. Right. It's the Satan who has embodied this. Right. It's not there. Yeah. So you're right. And so you ask those questions. So we do that. So, yeah, the Middle Ages, they love doing that. But they always associate Pharaoh with Satan and it makes perfect sense. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

One of the things you see with Satan and Pharaoh both are how they try to thwart the ultimate will of God, which is that first you and you. When we got into Exodus, the way it begins is so interesting to me because you had mentioned in our last podcast we had you on when we wrapped up Genesis, you emphasized how much of the story of Genesis is about Joseph at the end of it, in terms of just how many chapters are dedicated to Joseph. And the way that the Exodus story begins is with Joseph. And it's interesting to me that it actually goes back all the way to. To the creation when it says that. Because, remember, the cultural mandate was to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And then the flood happens. And in Genesis 9, it's the same exact command, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. And then really kind of the same thing that he tells Abraham or abram in Genesis 12. And then Israel, when you get to the story of Exodus, is actually doing that. It literally says they were fruitful and multiplied and filled land. And so I always see it like, okay, what is Satan's ultimate agenda? He wants to stop the fruitful multiplication of life and the exercising of dominion over the earth. So Pharaoh is that figure?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. And it turns out. And again, I don't want to go too allegorical typological here, but let's just talk about what Pharaoh's doing. He's not bright. Like, he wants to try to put these people. Let's crush them, and they become more fruitful. Okay?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So if you remember the Genesis, one of my favorite lines actually comes from Hagar, when the angel says, God has heard your suffering, now go suffer. And I try to make the point that sounds to me like it's the history of Israel. What's Pharaoh making them do? Suffer. And what do they do under that suffering? Multiply. So there's something really beautiful. Everything he does, he's thwarted. He's just undercut. Again, not to be allegorical or typological, but I don't know if you guys notice the people who were subverting him at the beginning of the story. They're all women that are subverting. First it's the Hebrew midwives, and then his own daughter. And we talked about this at breakfast. His daughter. What do we know about her?

[B]

And I had not realized that because.

[A]

I thought that was a profound insight. But, hey, before you do, make sure if you're not taking this course, you're like, what are you guys talking about? We're talking about the story of Exodus. You can take this course for free. We just finished it up. We're going to move on to the story of David next, by the way, so you can sign up for that as well.

[C]

But we want to hear from you guys.

[A]

Yeah, I want to hear from you. We want to hear from you guys.

[B]

Tell us what you Want.

[C]

And you can sign after.

[B]

David.

[A]

I'm trying to give our plug here. The courses are free. You don't have to pay for them. And you can sign [e-mail].

[D]

Talk about subverting and thwarting. They keep telling you the courses you're going to teach and you're like, and.

[B]

We'Re all thwarted by women on a regular basis. Let's call our wives. Or Maddie. We got Maddie. Or Maddie.

[A]

So, yeah. You mention what you mentioned at breakfast about.

[D]

Yeah. So Pharaoh's daughter we actually know in First Chronicles, she's part of the genealogy of Israel, which means she left with the Israelites along with. It depends on your translation. Either the mixed multitude or alter calls it the motley throng, the erev rav. Or if you combine the words, it means the riff raff, means outsiders. Foreigners went along, which is the.

[A]

Not Israel, though that's true.

[D]

A lot of Israel. Here's what's interesting. And knowing this, how many of you have ever thought, oh, maybe that's where the idolatry began? What if it's these individuals who are going along with Israel, are going, hey, this is how we deal with our gods. When they don't answer us, we build statues. That's how they respond to us. That's very much a rabbinic reading. It's either the outsiders or, you know, the two men who were fighting. Whenever Moses steps in and they say, who are you to judge us? Are you going to kill us the way in which you killed the Egyptian man? The rabbis also like to see those two as the ones who are moving towards idolatry, who are getting the people to commit idolatry as well. So, yeah, there's. And this shouldn't surprise anyone who's read the Hebrew Bible, the idea of weakness. The youngest son, a daughter, Hebrew midwives. The Hebrew midwives is one of my favorite details. Whenever they say, why didn't you kill the babies? Like I told you, it's great. They go and they say, they're much hardier than we are. They're using that animal imagery that he uses against him. Like, you see them as just disgusting animals. We're going to run with that. You'll believe us. There's that subversion there. So it shouldn't surprise us that it always seems to be the weakest. And I think in some ways it's that weakest, the younger brother, whatever it is, women. That's supposed to show us the strength of God. He can take the least. There's nothing Right. You know, you can just think of Goliath whenever he looks at David and he's like, are you gonna come at me with sticks? Like I'm some sort of a dog? Like, here I am. I'm ready for this battle. It turns out David's ready for the battle. David's probably more ready for the battle than he is. But that's the whole point, is that there is a strength in finding the weak and lifting them up. That's the whole point of battle.

[B]

I've always thought that's why Rahab story, when you get over to Joshua, is there because it seems like such an odd thing to put in scripture, but again, it's the same thing. Here's this woman. She's running this house of ill repute.

[C]

And she's in Hebrews.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's in the genealogy in Matthew.

[D]

No, I mean, that's. I mean, look, that's exactly. There's something. You know, we were talking about the genealogies at breakfast in the New Testament. They're kind of embarrassing.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It's Tamar. You're like, I think I remember the story of Tamar. Are we really going. That's the beauty of it all. To take that weakness. And that's the point. I mean, look at Moses, whatever his condition is, he can't speak well. He's like, I'm no man for this God. God's like, nevertheless, there comes to a point, wherever the battle is there. He can't even lift his arms anymore. It's like, keep him. But that's the point. It's like, yes, there's that weakness. Just remember who goes to Christ's tomb. Who are the first to discover which. There's an irony there, because they're supposed to go and give witness.

[B]

And they couldn't even give a witness in court. They can't even testify.

[D]

It's. It really is just. It's really pretty stunning to me. And I think that's supposed to be the absolute strength of scripture, is to demonstrate that God actually has your back. Like, whatever limitations you have, whatever those things may be, it doesn't matter. Addictions, it doesn't matter. Whatever your weakness is, it's okay. Because your God is more powerful than the others. I think that's really what's.

[B]

And you made the point that I thought was really strong, that I hadn't thought of before. Since Moses was representative and was the right hand of God dealing with this situation. Pharaoh viewing himself as a God is now being defeated by a mere man. A stutterer I mean, yeah, I had that point. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So when I read it, I always think about Pharaoh versus God. But you kind of talked about, yeah, like Pharaoh's looking at Moses and he's like, yeah, this dude's defeating me. Like, it had to been.

[D]

And not only that, but he also has to ask Moses to intercede for him. Okay, I've sinned this time. Will you go call off your God? That's pretty amazing to have a God telling you, go call off your God. And to say, you have power over me.

[A]

But that's kind of the motif, even that begins in Genesis 1. That our role we mentioned in a previous podcast that are priests. And so we're kind of like vice regents of God. So you see that exercising of God, working through humanity to. To accomplish his will. And that's why when we pray, thy will be done on earth just as it is in heaven. In other words, like, we want what's happening here in Monroe right now, West Monroe, to be done. Your will to be done here, just like it is in heaven. But if you were to go back and write this story and you're going to pick the people who are going to be your vice regents, we would pick no one that God picks. It's never the. Like, it wasn't Esau, it was Jacob. Jacob's one, he's the second born.

[D]

Two, he's a deceiver.

[A]

Deceiver. It's never the. And then you get to the story of Joseph and you think, well, it wouldn't be. It's not going to be Joseph for sure. But then once the story plays out, you're like, oh, it will be Joseph. Nope, that's not the line through which he came. It wasn't even Joseph. It's even our second choice. Nothing. It's like God's going the redemptive path of the Messiah. It just comes through the wildest of.

[D]

Genealogy, even the Joseph story. So you want a weakness, a man who sells out his brother, but then that strength that's there, it's all over.

[B]

Which again, Back to Matthew 1 and the idea of the seed line coming through Judah across time. And it's really interesting because the story shifts into Joseph's family, but it's those 12 that will then carry that going forward in the promised land. And all the stuff that happens after.

[D]

Which is interesting to me. We were talking about the Gospel of Mark earlier. I don't know if you've noticed the pattern in Mark, but the disciples are constantly rebuked. The disciples are going with Christ all the time. And then you'll have outsiders who act faithfully to Christ. And you just kind of look at the disciples going, what's your problem? But they are supposed to be the 12 tribes of Israel. And so I think it's a continuation of, you're weak, don't worry, I've got your back. And why again, I think it's a really simple. I think it's a simple narrative. Because God made a promise. Yeah. And it's happening. And you can either participate or not, but I'm not leaving you. The good news is I'm not leaving you. The bad news is I'm not leaving you. Because that usually is going to mean it's time for suffering.

[A]

Which at first, you know, you had mentioned in one of the Exodus courses that but Moses hid his face from God. I thought it was such a beautiful point. And I think about our own life, how when you first encounter God in whatever way that is, I got to hide myself from this God because I know who I am. And Moses did that. But then when you get to Exodus 32, and he's like, I'm not going. If your presence doesn't go with me, then he wants to see the face of God. He's like, let me see your face with the 32, 33, 34. Like, it's a whole different mind shift. But he'd been walking with God in the wilderness for quite a. Quite a bit of time.

[D]

You brought up, you know, 32 through 34. So this beautiful moment when God and whenever the Israelites are committing idolatry, and God goes, your people are committing idolatry. And Moses goes, oh, what are your people now? Do I think God's trying to disown Israel? I do not. Do I think he's trying to get Moses to come around to be on behalf of Israel? I do. I think Moses has a certain wrath, an understanding of God, which I don't know is completely accurate. So I think what God's trying to do is kind of perform for him. These are your people. Go do something for them. And he's like, they're your people. And that whole right hand of God, they're arguing over who's really the right hand here. And I think God's trying to point out to Moses, you're the right hand. God really works on Moses that one part when they're in the wilderness and he says, you gotta do something. If I'm pushed a little bit more, they're gonna kill me. And do you remember what God says to him, go walk in front of them. Walk right in front of them. And it's like, oh, my gosh. So two readings there. One, sorry, Moses, you're gonna get over yourself. My favorite reading of this actually comes from Rashi. Medieval exegesis. And his point, and I love it, it's a smart reading. His point is that God knows Israel won't do that to Moses and that Moses doesn't have faith in Israel. Moses is thinking, they're going to scapegoat me for all of their problems. They're taking me down. And Rashi's reading is God's like, don't worry, my people will not do that to you. Now go walk. And go walk in front of him. So you have that. So there's a lot of that give and take between God and Moses. But. But I don't take it as God saying, I want nothing to do with the people. I think he's trying to correct Moses. So much so that by the end, this is what I mean by that. What's the ultimate growth of Moses by the end of it all? His face glows with what we call the Kavod of God, the glory of God, because he's looking face to face. So much so remember how he has to come back down? He put a veil. What else is veiled Temple, the holy of holies. What is Moses at the. He is the holy of holies. In this interaction with God. My goodness. To be taking the glory of God off the mountain like that. That's to begin as a stutterer who says, please, this is no job for me to. Your face is glowing with the glory of God. Yeah, I think that's pretty good character development.

[A]

It reminds me of Paul real quick before I say this. You can sign up to take the class with us for [e-mail] it's free. We're finishing up Exodus, moving next into the story of David. But when you were mentioning that his face shining like that, I just think about what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 when he says, now we all with unveiled faces and we're beholding who God is. And so that's why I think you're right, this Exodus is such an important piece because even Paul's going to appeal back to this moment when he gets to his letter to the Corinthian Church. And his point is, it's only in Christ is that veil removed, where you can actually see and experience the presence of God, which connects perfectly with this Temple motif, which I've always said, I think a big portion of the book of Exodus. If you read it, it kind of ends really with the construction of the tabernacle. And so it's kind of right there, Exodus 25, kind of in the meat of it all, where. I know we don't really get into that in the course, but that construction of the. The tabernacle, which, when you read those details, they seem. So I used to read them as, like, I skipped through the genealogies and I skipped through the construction of the temple and the tabernacle because I'm like, ah, who cares about the.

[B]

How many cubits? This is.

[A]

Yeah, it doesn't matter. Insignificant. No, this is a picture of Eden. This is like. I mean, this is very significant.

[D]

Oh, yeah, I agree. And not only that, but in say, take Moses's. Take the. Moses, Noah's Ark, it's giving you exact. Well, for me, this is just the pattern of the Hebrew Bible. You've disobeyed. There's an exile, there's going to be a return, there's got to be a remnant. Here's your. I think it's proto temple imagery. The New Testament understands it completely. That's all baptism imagery. Right. But it's still that temple imagery that you're getting there with the ark, with the remnant. Those are the ones who are saved. And you'll see it again and again. There are lots of people who. Lots of scholars. And let me just say I agree with this part of the scholarship that there isn't any evidence of the size of this Exodus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we don't know.

[D]

You would think if they have 600,000 men and it says, not counting women and children, that's got to be 2, 3 million.

[B]

Right.

[D]

So you go, ah, where is it? Where are all the chariots, though? They think they found some chariots there on the Ritzia, but still. And they work hard archaeologically. But you're bringing up the temple. That's actually my argument that I think that it actually, there is real history, that it's not just simply a. A story inspired, you understand? I'm not saying whole cloth, an inspired story that never happened for the great faith of Israel. But I don't think that's the case. But it's the temple imagery, because the temple imagery used in Exodus, it mimics Egyptian temples. There's no way, if this is all Babylonian exile text, there's no way Israel knows what those Egyptian temples look like. Does that make sense? So I think there's actually Textual evidence that there was contact and they did spend time in Egypt, precisely because all of their temple imagery is mimicking what the. Which would make sense, right? Because they don't have all of their blueprint yet or anything like this. It looks just like it. So I always looked at the temple imagery just in that historical way that's in that text to go, oh. So I think they had access.

[A]

I've thought about it in terms of that curtain that separates the Holy of Holies, God's presence from the people, which is kind of the Mount Sinai moment. It's also the Garden of Eden when they were cast out. And then the cherubim guard the entrance. Well, that's sown into this temple now. And so you think about man, what does this matter? Well, when you get to the New Testament, you realize in Christ that now we do have access to the Father, to Christ, by the Spirit. And so you think, man, this is what God's doing here. And I think that speaks to where people are at, because it's the loneliness, it's the isolation. Jesus said, if a grain of wheat falls, doesn't fall to the ground and die, it remains alone. So the problem is it remains alone. That's the problem. It remains alone. I think when you mentioned earlier, you were talking about the conquering of death, which I thought about Phil, you know, our late. My late uncle, late grandfather, late dad, he was obsessed with the conquering of death, the resurrection of the dead. He built his whole life on it. But I think that's more than just an eternal existence. It's a quality of existence which is in presence. It's in the presence of God, you know?

[D]

Yeah. Crucifixion, resurrection. That's the gospel. That's as I was talking about at breakfast. We always forget the Ascension. There's no salvation without the Ascension as well.

[B]

It really is a very important kind.

[D]

Of a big deal. But, yeah, I mean, that critical core text is crucifixion, resurrection.

[B]

So I was thinking about the imagery and how you go back to Moses and those 40 years in the. You know, you only get like nine verses when he's like, in his own wilderness before, you know, when he's like, he's kind of run out and he winds up in the Midian Hilton, I call it. And what do you think that was godlike? Do you think he was strong and then became weak in terms of the not being able to speak or whatever? Or was he always this way? Because you made a really good point about how he was kind of Indecisive. Even in that moment when he came upon the two guys fighting, he's looking around, you know. Yeah, it was a different.

[A]

Yeah, that, that was the part where Moses is. He sees two of two guys fighting and he. And then he enter. He interjects himself into that.

[B]

But he. But he didn't look kind of around. He was kind of like unsure with the Egyptian. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Well, there's two ways of reading it, right? He's either looking around to see if there are any witnesses so he can do something about it.

[A]

Right.

[D]

I don't know that that's Moses. I don't also don't want to say it's not because 32 through 34, I think he's pretty strong. Or he's looking around to see if anyone will. Anyone else will do it. And that seems to me to be a little more consistent with where we see Moses in, In. In. In the story. There's a. There's a great midrash. When Moses dies. Omidrosh are these Jewish stories that they tell to flesh out what's going on in the text to give us some sort of theological import. So when Moses dies, he goes and he meets God and God praises him. He says, you were the greatest prophet that I've ever had. There's not going to be a greater prophet in all of Israel than you. And then God says to him, but, you know, you really shouldn't have killed that Egyptian. But you get these things through out. It's like it's what we were talking about before. We just want that God of judgment versus a God of mercy. And it's just not that easy. At the destruction of the Egyptians, there's another midrash where all the angels are rejoicing the destruction here. And God turns to them and he says, how dare you celebrate the destruction of my creation? Well, are the Egyptians not God's creation? Has he not created all nations? Is he? And by the way, the Hebrew Bible's actually having a serious conversation about this, right? Ezra and Nehemiah are very different than Ruth and Jonah.

[E]

So, yeah, my. Just to. Since we're talking about the death of Moses, that's one of my favorite parts of the whole story, is that when he died, he died with that. That moist vigor Moses had, that testosterone all the way to the end.

[B]

Scripture, what did you call it?

[A]

High tea.

[E]

High tea.

[C]

High tea.

[A]

Yeah. We just. We've been talking about the high tea of these guys, these Old Testament studs, man.

[E]

They were high tea all the way to the end. It's right in there.

[D]

I have no Midrash on high tea.

[A]

And you're wondering what is high teachers fit into all this? You can go sign up to take the classes with us for [e-mail] and maybe, maybe we tie that up.

[D]

I don't know.

[A]

But it's unashamedforhillsdale.com we just finished our Exodus study, and we want you to take these courses with us because this, I mean, it makes it a lot more sticky and. And you do such a great job of kind of giving like an overview. You don't. It's not. You don't get too. I mean, I think anybody from any different tradition can come in.

[D]

I think so.

[A]

But yeah. I love this Exodus story, though. I agree with you. It is the key to understanding the New Testament. I mean, you see it repeated even in Paul's writings of how often is Paul referenced back to the Exodus story? Jesus, clearly there's significance of his own baptism in the Jordan river and thinking about when they crossed over the Jordan river and the sins of Israel being washed away or the Red Sea moment. It's like the. Like a repetition over and over and over again in Scripture. And I think that God, he operates in that kind of story, and we're being invited into that story of this new Exodus or fulfilled Exodus, as you said. But one of the most incredible parts of probably all of Exodus, for me is that moment at the burning bush where you really do see a God whose intention is to be present with his people. And you see like that, even when he gives his name, how much of his. I mean, you mentioned the name.

[D]

One translation was, which is usually I am that I am or alter even does. I will be who I will be. My favorite translator of the Hebrew Bible is a man. His name's Everett Fox. His is a little too wild for my students, so I don't quite do it. But his is that I will be there. Howsoever, I will be there. But that makes perfect sense because he keeps saying, I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[A]

Yeah, it's not just. It's not just.

[D]

It's your presence.

[A]

And you know what's interesting, too? Later on, he said, well, when he talks to Moses, I think I always found this to be fascinating. He says, you know, I revealed myself to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but I did not tell them my name. Why is that?

[D]

I don't get that.

[A]

Well, I have a theory on it. I mean, I think that it's in this moment that the way that God's story is unfolding is he's revealing that his true essence is in his name, Yahweh. He's present. He's a God that wants to be present. So the story's unfolding and it hasn't quite got there yet. Even with Jacob, though Jacob's ladder is a temple motif. And so when you start to understand what is the point of a temple? It's the place where heaven and earth meet. It's where God meets with man. That got distorted in the fall. But Eden should be thought of as a temple. And so the whole story is moving to how is God going to make his home and people. So this is what's happening in that moment where. So when God reveals his name for the very first time and you can go through the rest of Scripture and how much of it is dependent. His name is like the thing. Right. So then you move into the New Testament with the Book of John.

[B]

How many times does Jesus use the same?

[D]

I am.

[A]

So I went on a rabbit hole, Jay's alert rabbit hole a while back on these Targums. I started reading some of the Targumists.

[D]

And.

[A]

These guys would take the Hebrew scriptures and they would put them in Aramaic so that they could understand it, and they would teach it to a Greco Roman audience so that people could receive it in their own kind of native tongue. And so they had recognized that there was a dilemma in the Old Testament when it talked about Yahweh and they called it the two Yahwehs theory. And they're like, it seems like there's two different powers.

[D]

Two powers? Yeah, from Daniel 7, 13.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

The orchard of days and another one who is just like Him. Yeah, that's all there. And it exists.

[A]

But they recognize this dilemma, which is interesting, because when they translated, they would have Yahweh and then they would have another phrase called the word of Yahweh, which would be the Logos of Yahweh. So when you get to John 1, then you're like, in the beginning, was the Logos?

[D]

Well, even. I mean, if Logos is language, rationality. But if it's also an ordering principle. And it clearly is. Okay, well, what's predicated upon an ordering principle? Justice. So then that should really interest us if we're still talking about the difference between the God of mercy and that God of justice. In some ways, guess what you would say about Christ. In fact, he is the God of justice, meaning that ordering principle.

[A]

Well, I know we're out of time here. But I'll end with this. This is one of the things I do appreciate about your tradition is understanding and really kind of trying to read the Bible through this lens of God's presence, because it seems to be that's the centerpiece of the story. So whatever your view of the atonement is, atonement is an entry point into presence. It's not the end. It's the entry point into the very presence of Christ. And to.

[D]

I mean, I'm, I'm. This is literally, I think it's 1527. The first time the word atonement is used in the English language is in the Tyndale Bible. But they're borrowing from a 14th century word. And there it was just oned o n y e d or o n e d or o n id they didn't have standardized spelling, but it just meant one.

[A]

Well, we are out of time. So we're waving their hands. Yeah, they're wrapping up us up here. We're getting. They're about to pull out the cane for us.

[B]

I think we like having Justin on the podcast. Thanks for making the training so good and thanks for the, for teaching because we're learning a lot.

[D]

Well, thanks for working to get me here. So this has been, this has been a joy.

[A]

Go sign up for the next course we're going to take, which is going to be the Story of David course. And so you can go to unashamedforhillsdale.com Sign up is for free and we'll be in that in the very next podcast.

[B]

All right, see you next time.

[E]

That's great.

[A]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.

[D]

Sam.