Ep 1215 | Jase Debates If Pink Floyd Can Be Worship Music & the Bible’s Strangest Rule

Summary

Unashamed With the Robertson Family — Ep 1215

“Jase Debates If Pink Floyd Can Be Worship Music & the Bible’s Strangest Rule”

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Tread Lively | Guests: Phil, Al, Jase, Zach

---

Main Theme / Purpose

In this lively and insightful episode, the Robertson family explores the intersection of popular music and spirituality, asking whether songs like Pink Floyd’s can function as worship music. They weave their unique humor and storytelling into a biblically anchored discussion, moving seamlessly from cultural observations to deep theological concepts about Christ’s crucifixion, Old Testament rituals, and how believers can embody faith in a modern, divided world. The episode also touches on impactful listener testimonies, family stories, and biblical fulfillment, ultimately centering on the transformative power of Jesus’ sacrifice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Music, Faith, and Spiritual Application

• Walk-Up Songs as Spiritual Starters
  • Jase shares his experience leading recovery ministry with Tom Petty’s “I Won’t Back Down,” sparking enthusiastic participation (04:19–05:29).
  • The family debates which mainstream songs could have spiritual meaning in worship or ministry.
    • Jase: “One of them probably won’t work. The Pink Floyd song. There’s someone in my head, but it’s not me. And then you could go to the Holy Spirit.” (06:12)
    • Jason warns: “That may trigger the wrong response.” (06:29)
  • Other suggestions: Collective Soul’s “Shine” and U2’s “I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For” as examples of spiritual themes in mainstream music, and the reaction of audiences when such songs are played (06:33–10:36).
• Musicians and Their Messages
  • Discussion on crossover “Christian” bands—Collective Soul, Creed, U2—and the blurred lines between mainstream and spiritual music.
  • Jase reads Collective Soul’s lyrics and comments on their spiritual connotations (08:45–09:11).
  • The group agrees that even secular music can point to deeper spiritual longing: “I remember hearing that song for the first time, and I thought, well, Jesus is what you’re looking for.” (Jay, 10:36)

2. Family Stories & The Power of Testimony

• Phil’s Musical Preferences and Discipline
  • Recalling how Phil disliked country music’s “old timey” sound, preferred southern rock, and critiqued the emotional sameness of country artists (12:21–15:13).
  • Al: “It was my way to rebel against dad—start listening to country music.” (15:13)
• Listener Testimony: Transformation Through Podcast and Music
  • Zach relays a heartfelt message from a truck driver who found Jesus through their show and a country song, underscoring “the power of testimony” (16:06–18:49).
  • Quote: “As a 47 year old man, I should have my life together, but I had to realize I have nothing together and had to start over at the bottom … I had to pull over and cry my eyes out.” (17:34)
  • The Robertsons reflect on the impact of authenticity and ministering through modern cultural lenses.

3. Christ's Fulfillment of Scripture and The Cross

• Pilate and The Crucifixion Narrative (John 19:16ff)
  • Jason summarizes takeaways from John 18–19:16—Pilate’s conflicted neutrality, declaration of Jesus’ kingship, and the tragic “expediency” of political power (20:24–24:57).
  • Jay adds that the fulfillment of the Law (“I didn’t come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it”—Luke 24) is central to Christ’s sacrifice.
• The Scapegoat & Passover Lamb Typology
  • Zach and Jay dive into Leviticus 16’s Day of Atonement, highlighting the meaning of the two goats: “He’s both the sacrificial goat and scapegoat” (41:02–49:31).
    • Zach: “Jesus accomplishes what those two goats signified. Jesus actually accomplishes that and makes my body the temple of the Holy Spirit, the holy place of God.” (49:31)
  • Connection to Hebrews 13: Jesus suffered “outside the city gate to make the people holy,” linking scapegoat imagery to the crucifixion (46:41–47:23).
  • Jason notes Jesus is also the unblemished Passover lamb—his bones were not broken to fulfill Old Testament prophecy (49:31).

4. The Ultimate Choice — Two Criminals on the Cross

• Personal Acceptance or Rejection of Christ’s Sacrifice
  • Jason reads Luke 23:39–43, emphasizing the contrasting attitudes of the two criminals crucified alongside Jesus: one mocks, the other seeks mercy (51:03–53:13).
    • “Here’s a guy that’s hanging in the moment… But he sees something coming. He sees the idea of Jesus’ kingdom.” (Jason, 52:32)

5. The “Strangest Rule” In the Bible — War & Trees

• Deuteronomy 20:19–20
  • Jay highlights an obscure Old Testament law: don’t destroy fruit trees during war. He ties this to the garden, spiritual warfare, and the larger biblical arc of “fruitfulness” and life (53:13–56:08).
    • Jay: “Your war is not against the trees. Which is a funny statement… now our war is not against flesh.”

6. Prophecy Fulfillment, The Undivided Robe, and the Church

• Kingdom Imagery: Wholeness vs. Division
  • Zach interprets the soldiers’ refusal to tear Jesus’ robe as significant, a prophetic sign of the unity and undivided nature of Christ’s Church—contrasting David and Saul’s torn kingdom (56:08–58:07).
    • Zach: “This is a picture of Christ and his church. A garment that’s not divided, a kingdom that’s not divided, a kingdom that is whole.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music and the Spirit
  • Jase: “There’s someone in my head but it’s not me. And then you could go to the Holy Spirit, but I don’t really know what that song is about...” (06:12)
• On Faith in the Mundane
  • Jay: “Our dad...would try to make these practical applications from these songs. A song would play while we were sitting there building duck calls. He’d say, you know, that old boy needs to find Jesus.” (12:21)
• Listener Testimony
  • Zach (reading): “As I sit here at mile marker 36 on I-30 in Arkansas... I had to pull over and cry my eyes out. ...Thank you so much for being a light to the people.” (17:34)
• On the Cross and Fulfillment
  • Jason: “He basically is saying, I just paid for the sin of everyone that’s ever lived. I mean, it happened literally in this moment.” (39:23)
• Personal Application
  • Jay: “In him you are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Holy Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:22, 50:23)
• On Transformation
  • Jason: “Everything you see around this crucifixion comes back down to the same individual choice that people have every single day, even to this very day.” (52:56)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Walk-Up Songs & Music as Worship – 04:19–07:57
• Rock & Christian Crossover Bands – 08:04–10:36
• Family’s Musical Roots & Rebellion – 12:21–15:50
• Listener Testimony: Truck Driver’s Story – 16:06–18:49
• Christ’s Fulfillment of Law and Prophecy – 20:24–29:45
• Roman Crucifixion & Symbolism – 29:45–33:53
• Scapegoat, Day of Atonement, and Atonement Place – 41:02–49:31
• Passover Lamb & Significance of Unbroken Bones – 49:31–50:23
• Choice of the Two Criminals – 51:03–53:13
• Obscure Law: War Against Trees – 53:13–56:08
• Symbolism of the Undivided Robe – 56:08–58:07
• Closing Thoughts: Tree of Life and Church Unity – 58:07–58:45

---

Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is relaxed, full of Southern humor, family banter, and a steady undercurrent of spiritual sincerity. Honest reflection, self-deprecating jokes, and practical theology blend seamlessly. The Robertsons openly engage with the struggles of everyday believers, using stories and scripture to bridge cultural gaps and point to the hope they find in Christ.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode beautifully intertwines pop culture with rich biblical teaching. The Robertsons prove that faith can intersect with every aspect of life— from music to everyday struggles—while never losing sight of the core message of Christ’s universal sacrifice and transformative power. Whether debating whether Pink Floyd could be worship music or expounding on the profound symbolism of the cross, their conversation invites listeners deeper into both scripture and relationship.

Transcript

[Jay]

So good, so good, so good.

[Zach]

New markdowns are on at your Nordstrom Rack store.

[Jay]

Save even more.

[Zach]

Up to 70% on dresses, tops, boots and handbags to give and get.

[Jay]

Cause I always find something amazing.

[Zach]

Just so many good brands.

[Jay]

I get an extra 5% off with.

[Zach]

My Nordstrom credit card. Total queen treatment. Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

[Jason]

So no matter how you slice it, we're definitely in a divided time in our country. There's. There's no way around it. We see it every single day and watch the news. And so I think in this time of division, we have to have consistency that speaking into the values that we believe in. One of our good friends, Tony Perkins, heads up an organization called Family Research Council. As a Louisiana guy, he's a pastor, he has our heart for Jesus. He even did a blurb in dad's book, A Theft of America's Soul. And it's just been there for us as a family, but also as a nation. So FRC is standing for what's right. They defend faith. They protect families. They remind leaders that biblical truth still matters. So when others compromise, our friends at FRC stand firm. Because if we lose our foundation, we lose the soul of our nation. Unashamed nation. You guys can help out FRC by defending what matters most by visiting FRC.org unashamed to learn more. Check them out.

[Jay]

I am unashamed.

[Zach]

What about you?

[Jason]

Welcome back to Unashamed. Jay says a frog in his throat. I had the same problem in the last podcast. You gotta get some kind of mint in there, Zach to sue the. You know, what happened is we've had our first cold weather and so when that happens, it just kind of triggers because you got that high pressure that rolls in. Last time Zach was in a last week or earlier this week, Zach was in a parka in his. In his studio. Remember that, Jason?

[Jay]

Oh, that was top 10 embarrassing things I've ever seen. You're indoors. Weari a foot thick jacket, like zipped up. And then he got so excited about the point he was making, I thought his head was going to blow off.

[Jason]

That's right, because he looked like he was all bound up and his head was just glowing.

[Jay]

I told Missy that. I was like, well, if it was like a. Watching a tea kettle and waiting for that, you know that. But it was a great, great song.

[Jason]

Oh, it was. It was one of the top 10 rants of, of all time on the podcast.

[Jay]

It was a classic done in an embar wardrobe.

[Zach]

To be fair. To be fair. It was 19 degrees outside. Yeah.

[Jason]

And snowing.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

But you were inside.

[Jay]

Yeah, we're talking about. You're inside, Zach. That's on you. It's called central air. Build a fire, something. Don't wear. Don't wear a big parka.

[Zach]

Well, it was a down jacket, wasn't a parka. But, I mean, you say tomato, I say tomato, you know.

[Jason]

Well, there's different ways to blow smoke on this podcast, Zach, but you were literally blowing smoke, I guess, up there in North Carolina. So, Jay's. I hadn't forgotten. About a month ago, you spoke at our local Celebrate Recovery and on a Friday night. And they always say, their line is, it's the place to be on a Friday night. Celebrate Recovery. And we have a huge one. I mean, we have a lot of people there. They're very enthusiastic. These are people that are coming out of a lot of worldly situations, some of them out of prison. Recovery houses. A lot of different things going on there. And so I'm up next Friday. And so I'm excited about my opportunity. But I kind of. I was. I was inspired by what you talked about because we talked about the podcast. So I kind of wanted to do a part two about the lighting the fire, because that was your fire was your theme, as I recall.

[Jay]

Well, I played the viral video from Sister Brown or Sweet Brown.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And that was a lead balloon. Because they. I don't know, it didn't trigger the response because, you know, when she's like, there was a fire. I was on the way to get some pop. I really. It's just funny to listen to, but that didn't work. But when I played my walk up song, which was I Won't Back Down, Tom Petty, that hit. So you need to find a rock and roll song now. Chaos ensued because they all broke out in the song. They knew.

[Zach]

They knew the song.

[Jay]

It was a Tom Petty concert.

[Zach]

Where were you at?

[Jay]

I was at Recovery.

[Zach]

They do it in White's favorite, but in Monroe.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Okay.

[Jay]

It was so loud. Like they had sang some worship songs. This was three times the volume. And when I said, okay, I'm gonna make the point, they continued singing. After I stopped the song, they just went on. It was hard to even get them back. But I thought, you know, you talking.

[Zach]

About engaged sounds like a Florida game. That sounds awesome.

[Jay]

That's what.

[Zach]

That's what we do every fourth quarter at the University of Florida in the swamp. That's how you start right there. Tom Petty. I won't back down the whole stands.

[Jay]

Yeah, but I was making a spiritual application. You're talking about football.

[Zach]

That's spiritual.

[Jason]

Not really, because he's talking about University of Florida. It's not really football, but it's. It's whatever they're doing. It's whatever they're doing.

[Zach]

We did have Tim Tebow as our quarterback and Danny Werfel to the most.

[Jason]

30 years now.

[Zach]

Well, I'm just saying. Yeah, y'. All. Y' all don't have anybody like that.

[Jason]

You got to go back to Steve Spurrier. You're. You're living in the past, man.

[Zach]

But you needs a walk up song to that.

[Jason]

Yeah, I want to. I want to do a walk up song.

[Jay]

Well, just the. A couple have just popped into my head. One of them probably won't work. The Pink Floyd song. There's someone in my head, but it's not me. And then you could go to the Holy Spirit. But I don't really know what that song is about off the top of my head. So it could be.

[Jason]

That may trigger the wrong response.

[Jay]

Here's a good one.

[Jason]

What's the other one?

[Jay]

Here's, here's the one you do. There's. Who sang that song, Collective Soul, I believe, saying, shine, whoa, heaven let your light shine down. There you go, look. And you could go, Heaven came down. So you could start off with. I mean, do the song. You'd have to, because has a. A little guitar riff that's good.

[Jason]

That opens it up.

[Jay]

Yeah. And then he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason]

Okay, yeah, I got it.

[Jay]

But that's a good one because they actually. I had listened to that song early on, and I knew it was. Had spiritual connotations, but I didn't know how profound it was because in my first 10, 15 years of Christian walk, I. I was all about, one day I'm going to heaven. And I didn't realize that the Bible teaches more about heaven coming down in various forms to the garden, to the tabernacle, Jesus himself, the Holy Spirit, the church coming down in Revelation 21 and 22. And so I think that that would be a noble point to get into.

[Jason]

Yeah, I think it'd be really good.

[Zach]

Y' all remember that song we sang, Heaven Came down and Glory Filled My Soul? Yeah, that's a good one.

[Jason]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Zach]

Thinking about somebody, but. Well, so what's interesting about that song is that I looked it up. 1993. I remember when it came out and it was a mainstream Song. Even though it's a Christian song. I believe it was an actual Christian band that was also. They. They somehow were able to get into the. Into the cultural zeitgeist at the time and come in through the alternative rock. But I believe Collective Soul was a Christian band. I'm gonna look it up, and there's.

[Jason]

Been a few other ones like that. Creed was like that, Zach. You know, they. They were a Christian band, but they crossed over some of their stuff.

[Zach]

They are now.

[Jay]

Listen to the lyrics. Give me a word Give me a sign show me where Tell me what will I find Lay me on the ground and fly me in the sky show me where to look Tell me what I'll find Love is in the water Love is in the air show me where to look Tell me will love be there? Will love be there? Yeah. So pretty.

[Jason]

Some good stuff.

[Jay]

I like it.

[Zach]

Yeah. They say they're not a Christian band, but kind of.

[Jay]

You two.

[Zach]

You two was kind of like, you know, their songs got some. A lot of theological significance to them.

[Jason]

As well, you know, which is funny you mentioned that, because there was a. We went to South Africa years ago, maybe 20 years ago, I went there, and we were traveling with a. With a acapella group called Watershed Worship at the time, which are very popular in our background. And they had this song, this U2 song that they opened up, I Still Haven't Found what I'm Looking For. You know, that song. Oh, yeah, and.

[Zach]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason]

And. Which is another good one, by the way. But he would start off with that whole first part of that song, and then he had, like, one of their songs that, like, comes in halfway through that song. But when he would start that, like, we were, like, big audiences of people, and they didn't really know, you know, any of the worship stuff. But when he would start that YouTube song, you talk about seeing those Africans in South Africa, I mean, and they would. They would drown out, like, the guys singing. They were singing so loud. And then. What was that? Open the eyes of my heart, Lord Open the eyes of my heart that. That was their response song to I Still Haven't Found what I'm Looking for, which I thought was a pretty.

[Jay]

Hey, Al. I remember hearing that song for the first time, and I thought, well, Jesus is what you're looking for.

[Jason]

Exactly.

[Zach]

Or the one I Can't get no Satisfaction. I mean, well, you know, that's kind of. That'll preach, too. You looking in all the wrong places. Sometimes it can be difficult, guys, to get a handle on your budget. And sometimes it just doesn't work out well. But I got a solution for you. It's called Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. It monitors your spending, and it helps you lower your bills so that you can actually grow your savings. I'm using Rocket Money. I was able to uncover several subscriptions that I was double paying for and somebody I didn't know I was paying for at all. I love it because you can see all your subscriptions in one place, including the ones you forget about. And I love it because if I see something that I don't want, Rocket Money can help me cancel it. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives me a clear view of my expenses across all my accounts. And I can create a personalized budget to help keep my spending on track. I get alerts if my bills increase or if there's like an unusual price increase or unusual spending activity. Plus, their goals features can help you determine the the best time each month to put extra money aside. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. They deal with the customer service teams so that you don't have to. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over 880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Unashamed today. That's RocketMoney.com Unashamed RocketMoney.com Unashamed Looking for love in all the wrong places.

[Jay]

Well, I remember where I made these. These kind of transitions is because our dad, Al, he listened to rock and roll music. And then I saw his faith as it matured, and he would try to make these practical applications from these songs. You know, a song would play while we were sitting there building duck calls. You'd say, you know, that old boy, he needs to find Jesus. You know, I mean.

[Zach]

Even the Pink.

[Jay]

Floyd, you know, analogy I use, he made that point. He's like, you know, we got the spirit of God in our head.

[Zach]

Famous. There's a famous little clip that was going around when Phil passed over. And it's Phil, probably about 35 years old, and he's got. He's talking about the, you know, so, hey, yeah, but I mean, we were just. Hey, we were just taking it to the limit one more time.

[Jay]

Isaiah, that's another one. Say, yeah, that was another one. He Made that.

[Jason]

I mentioned that. I mentioned that song at his funeral. You know, Jace, what's funny is someone, apparently someone@fox news.com is listening to our podcast. Because I was. I was scrolling on the website for something, looking for a story, and I see a picture. Yeah, I know, but I see a picture of dad on there and it says, duck Dynasty patriarch banned country music for his sons. And I was like, wow, what is this? I mean, because, you know, dad hadn't exactly been the headlines here late. So I click on the I. It was clickbait. It got me. I clicked on it. And they quoted a discussion we had on the podcast. They were quoting mostly you and I when we were talking about dad listening to rock and roll. We were.

[Zach]

That's when we had Larry. When we had Larry Fleet, on.

[Jay]

Which.

[Zach]

I. I mean, you're telling a country music singer that we. I was like, come on.

[Jay]

I was being transparent.

[Jason]

My dad, we're telling the truth.

[Jay]

He would just. I mean, he wouldn't give you a spanking because of it, but he would call you an idiot. He's like, no, he frowned upon it. Yeah. He just didn't.

[Zach]

But he liked southern rock, so he would do Leonard Skinner. Like, it's kind of. It's kind of morphed.

[Jason]

There.

[Jay]

You weren't there if you. If you put on a song. Because he used to do this little, little jingle every time. He said, you know, these country music artists, they come out there, look, they all have the same note. Remember Al, when he would get on that, he would go.

[Jason]

The steel guitar.

[Jay]

Yeah. And he said, boy, it makes me want to gag. He just did not like that old timey country music. And he.

[Jason]

And then Jason and I were talking about. On that podcast, man, we were talking about sort of the outlaw country came along is what they call it now. But it was, you know, just kind of stuff about our childhood and. And we were kind of drawn to it. I mean, it was like an anthem. And so it was my way to rebel against dad was to start listening to country music.

[Jay]

I was going to bring that up. Al went through a country music phase, and my dad was not happy. And it was because, I don't know, that old boy, he. He just lost it. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, your brother. All of a sudden, he's not his son. He's my brother.

[Zach]

Detachment, which is what he would do.

[Jason]

But look, apparently someone is listening because that whole piece was on that article. Zach.

[Zach]

Well, what's funny, I tell you what's funny? Larry sent me a text last week. Here's what's weird. I was on the, the phone, I was on a zoom call with a, with a trucking company that wants to do a podcast about trucking. And they said, we want to reach people in the trucking community for the gospel. I was like. And I was like, you know, it's funny. I think we have a lot of truckers that listen to our podcast. Well, Larry, as soon as that call ends, Larry, I get a text from Larry Flee about one of the people who listens to our podcast who is a trucker in Arkansas. He was driving in Arkansas and he didn't know who Larry was, but he listens to our podcast. And so he was sending this to Larry through like his agent or whatever. He's trying to get a hold of him and said he's one of those emails like, I don't know if you ever see this, but I'm gonna tell you my story. And he said, I was in and out of drugs and alcohol addiction. I mean, life was. He's 47 years old, my age, five kids, same as me. And he said, but I've listened to the Unashamed podcast. He said, I got sober. I think he said in June of this year. He said, I completely, for the first time ever, fully turned my life over to Jesus. And he was just sharing his testimony with Larry and he said something like, I heard you talking, heard your story. He said, and then I started listening to your songs, primarily that one about where I find God. And he said, he said I had to pull over. What did he say? He said something.

[Jay]

I just remember you sent it to me.

[Jason]

You sent it to us. Yeah, and it was really good.

[Jay]

Pull it up.

[Zach]

Let me see. Oh yeah, here. Yeah, I'll just read you this last part right here. He said, he said, anyways, just please to tell him. Speaking about Larry. Thank you. I don't have social media or do all that. As a 47 year old man, I should have my life together, but I had to realize I have nothing in all caps together and I've had to start over at the bottom. So I just want Larry to know as I sit here at mile marker 36 on I30 in Arkansas, as I'm a truck driver, I had to pull over and cry my eyes out. I've never heard of Larry until tonight. But as I listened to Unashamed Podcast, I was so taken by his story and his willingness to talk about Jesus and the circle that he's in. Then I listened to his songs. So thank you so much for being a light to the people. Don't ever think that what you're doing is not important. I thought, man, that was such an encouraging message that this guy sent. I called Larry after. After I read it, I said, larry, that you realize that's a country music song right there. Mile marker 36 on I 30. I mean, doesn't that sound like a country. I said, we got to write a song. We do need to do a collab between Unashamed and Larry Floyd Sleep. We need that. Truckers Don't Cry, or Truckers Do Cry when it comes to Jesus.

[Jason]

Well, that was one of the things that impressed me about Larry was this kind of a new genre that he's helping create. And there's other artists, too, from both sides of the. From the pop side and from the countryside, this idea about these spiritual themes. Because I think the same thing with, like, some of these jelly roll songs. I mean, they're very godly and they're. They're, you know, very honoring of. Of our lifestyle and who we are.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And I just think it's a new thing, that it's a great trend. I mean, especially kind of where our country is right now and a lot of people kind of coming awake to the idea of faith and truth. I just think it's inspiring to see artists that are tapping into that and not afraid to sing about God and, you know, other things. I think it's a good.

[Jay]

Well, that transformation ultimately comes from God. He's a transformer. We spent the last two podcasts talking about under the umbrella of John 19, and what Jesus is accomplishing here, this being under law and it not having the power over sin. And here's Jesus who's fixed to transform that through his death on a cross and resurrection, and then give you his Holy Spirit, which is the power of God to transform your life. I mean, that. That's the big battle of, am I under law, or do I have God living in me? From a relational standpoint, it's giving you the power to do this. And I think that's what's being missed.

[Jason]

No, I think you're right. So today we are going to advance our story. And to do that, I'll give you just four takeaways that I had. I'm sure the guys have more, but I'll just give you these four from chapter 18 through 1916. So we've been in before Pilate Jesus. And so Pilate finds Jesus guilty of no crime. He did it Multiple occasions. But he does fear the truth of who Jesus is. This idea about, remember it said when they said he was claimed to be the son of God who jays with that you read about breaking their law. That scared Pilate. He said it said he was fearful because he thought, oh, because you know, what for? I think for a little bit of an instant, Pilate thought, what if he is the son of God?

[Jay]

Well, because his wife had been having bad dreams saying, exactly, you need to walk away. And so they're like, what is the sign? My wife's having bad dreams. And it scared him.

[Jason]

Just the season, as they say.

[Jay]

Jace, it is. I mean, in Louisiana right now it's 80 degrees out.

[Jason]

But you know what? It's the time for gift giving. And that's why we love giving. Cozy Earth. Jase is modeling today. Zach, he's got on the bubble cuddle blanket.

[Jay]

I do. And I'm actually going to give this lovely product to my wife for Christmas.

[Zach]

I use mine every night. I sleep with it now. I mean, it's like my security blanket.

[Jason]

Well, and we all love different things about Cozy Earth. My favorite are the pajamas. Uh, which I have to admit, but I don't wait until I'm going to beg. I just like to wear them around the house. They're so comfortable. Uh, everything they have is like that. Their sheets and pajamas, incredibly soft. Uh, once you try Cozy Earth, you'll get it. Cozy Earth makes every day feel like a special occasion. And so Black Friday has actually come early at Cozy Earth. Right now you can stack our code unashamed on top of their site wide sale, giving you up to 40% off in savings. And that's cozyearth.com, use the code Unashamed. These deals won't last. So start your holiday shopping today and if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Unashamed podcast. Wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth. And so that was number one. Number two, Pilate mockingly but also truthfully declares who Jesus really is. One is, he said, here is the man. And we talked a lot about that the last few podcasts. And we talk about the son of man. And he says it out loud, but he also calls him the King of the Jews. And of course the Jews didn't like it, but it was really true. He is the king of the Jews and the world, by the way. Another third thing is that Pilate, and this is to me, one of those subtle points, but Pilate is Seeking neutrality, but he. But he settles on expediency. In other words, he doesn't really want to weigh in here because it doesn't advance him and he knows something is off about it. But he settles for what gets him through the moment. And if that doesn't describe political leadership around the world, in most cases, I don't know what does. They want neutrality, but they settle on expediency. Let's just get it through it. Truth doesn't really factor in. It's just a question of how do we make this work. And that's why he went to this, what we call halfway death of having Jesus scourged by the Romans, which is a brutal, terrible, awful thing. We didn't get into the details of it, but it's awful.

[Jay]

Oh, it's like leather straps with, like, bone on the end of them. Flesh. I mean, that's why they call it halfway death.

[Jason]

Yeah. It literally puts your body into such a shock. And if you want to see it and experience it, you can watch the Passion of the Christ, because Mel Gibson does an amazing job of visualizing how bad and brutal this was, but it's awful. And then the fourth thing I would say is that John makes a point and Jay's did a whole podcast rabbit hole in this, that the sequencing of these festivals and the passover lambs and the time of the day, all that matters, because everything is kind of coming to fruition to this moment that we're reaching in 1916. So that was kind of my takeaway.

[Jay]

Yeah, that last point you made is really what we've been doing on trying to define the fulfillment when Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Or the passage in Luke that says, everything that is written about me and the law and the prophets must be fulfilled. That's. I think that's in Luke 24. And of course, then he starts talking about the Spirit, which. So, you know, the couple things I would add to that is because you're like, well, well, why did he go along with this? Well, that little statement they made about. In verse.

[Jason]

Let me get my glasses on.

[Jay]

Verse 12, when he says, from then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jay]

But the Jews kept shouting. And why he caved in was what they were shouting when they said, you're no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar, which is another accusation against Jesus, you know, making him the king of the Jews. And I think, which is the irony.

[Zach]

Is they hated Caesar, so they're like, they're the real rebels. But all of a sudden, now they're like loyal citizens.

[Jason]

They're like, yeah, so hypocrite. It was.

[Jay]

So they're on the wrong side of the law. They're on their own law. They're on the wrong side of power because now, in a weird turn of events, they're embracing Caesar as their Lord. And I think it makes you realize, too, how this could even happen, because they're so far away from Pilate's, so far away from the mothership, they're basically just colonizing under their power, all these communities. And so it's not like you see a literal battle of Jesus against the Roman power. This is like way away from the mothership where they're using now. That's why they would put up statues and different signs of power just to keep control over these places that. Places that they're inhabiting. And it's like when they. These archeologists have looked, well, you didn't find any. Any statues like in Rome itself. It was all in these areas where they were taking over the world. And it. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because it shows you how power wants to intimidate earthly power by using these images of their own power. And so when you look at what Jesus is representing, which is the image of God, the true power, and he's showing that in sacrifice and love, even loving the people who are putting him on the cross. And one of the last things that he said, and I think just that difference in what you're doing about the power you have shows you the difference in heaven power and earthly power.

[Jason]

And even Jay's, even the symbol of crucifixion itself was part of the reason why. You know, last podcast, I read Galatians 4, 4, when the time set had fully come. I mean, he. They chose. They meaning God, chose to come here at a time when Roman execution of crucifixion was sort of at its peak of what it was designed to do. It. It started by the way back, way back with the Persians. It was more of an impaling situation, but it was the same thing about hanging them on a cross. And then it passed along to the Greeks and onto the Romans. But the Romans were the ones who perfected it. And, and somebody that I am reading had these four things that crucifixion, the four elements of Roman crucifixions, unrelenting agony, protracted death. In other words, you wanted this to last for days. Public spectacle. That's why they're.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah, that's why they. Embarrassment. They're wanting to embarrass Christ.

[Jason]

And that was. The fourth thing was utter humiliation. I mean, that was the four aspects.

[Jay]

Like a form of terrorism there.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Well, you remember the story, I don't know it off the top of my head, but of Spartacus. I mean, there's probably been 100 movies about it of them you can watch, but they. They crucified like 6,000 rebels and like, strategically placed the crucifixion down the road of 6,000 people. So when you walk down the highway, just think walking down a road where you see 6,000 people hung up on.

[Jason]

The cross, dying, agonized, slow death.

[Jay]

Well, what is the message they're sending? Sending, you don't mess with Rome. You want to mess with us. This is. So that was the whole idea of this.

[Jason]

And we've made the point that the. That God again chose this. A lot of it's because of this tree imagery, because we go back to the garden and the idea of the tree. And then Also in Deuteronomy 21, there's this idea about being cursed, you know, hanging on a tree. And so it's this concept that's been along all the time. And so Jesus becomes that curse. So all that leads into what happens. So I want to read this section because I'm sure we'll be here for a minute about the actual crucifixion itself, because that's the next phase of what's happening in our narrative. So let me read it. And I'm reading from the NIV. So Pilate hands him over to be crucified, verse 16. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. So now it's going to be enacted out carrying his own cross, which was common, that the criminal. And I put that in quotes in Jesus case, had to carry part of their own cross. He went out to the place of the skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha or Golgotha. Here they crucified him, and with him two others, one on each side and Jesus in the middle. Now, a couple of the other gospels go into a little more detail, which we'll talk about those two criminals with Jesus, verse 19. Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. And again, this was a common thing about. Usually they would put up whatever their crime was above them so that you would know, you know, why this person was hanging. I'm sure that 6000 Jace was talking about probably had insurrection or whatever. This one just simply said, jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews. Many of the Jews read this sign for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city. And the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. So he didn't want him to miss it. The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, do not write the King of the Jews. But that this man claimed to be. But that this man claimed to be the king of the Jews. So they're wanting to parse over what he said. Pilate answered, what I have written, I have written. So in other words, he's the. He's the man.

[Zach]

So we love the continent of Africa.

[Jason]

Oh, man, I've been several times. Mostly western Africa. Jason, I just sent you a picture. Malawi. I mean, yeah.

[Jay]

Today they had 700 students on the side of a little hill and they were sharing Jesus.

[Jason]

People are very hungry for the gospel there. It's a great place to do ministry.

[Zach]

Well, our friends at Tomorrow Clubs, they're some of the hardest reached places in Africa. They're back there at a place called Binga, which is a remote part of Zimbabwe. And I want to tell you about 13 year old Mbappe, this little kid, 13 years old, lost his mom, dropped out of school, turned to drugs. But the only thing that he cared about that was really good was soccer. And so with the local Tomorrow Club started games in his village, he showed up just to play soccer. But before each game, the leaders would share about Jesus. And that's where Mbappe first found his faith in Jesus Christ. And today, years later, he's now an ambassador of the gospel in the same village. So Tomorrow Clubs already serves 5,000 kids across 40 villages in Binga. And more local churches are ready to open up more clubs. So the goal is this is to double the outreach in Binga by the end of this year, reaching 40 more communities and 5,000 more kids. And so it cost about $2,000 to start and sustain a club for an entire year. So whether you want to sponsor a new club or if you just want to donate a hundred bucks or twenty bucks or fifty bucks to train a local leader, you're shaping the church of tomorrow. Plus, for a limited time, all donations to this bingo blitz are going to be matched. Join us now and double your impact by visiting tomorrow club. That's tomorrowclubs.org unashamed.

[Jason]

When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them. With the undergarment remaining, the garment was seamless woven in one place from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another. Let's decide by lot who will get it. And then, Johnson, give us a little parenthetical here. This happened that the Scripture might be fulfilled, which said, they divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. That's out of Zechariah 12:10. So this is what the soldiers. No, that's. I'm sorry, that's out of Psalm 22:18. So this is what the soldiers did. Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister Mary, the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there and the disciples whom he loved standing nearby, which the assumption is most scholars, that that was John himself, he said to his mother, dear woman, here is your son. And to the disciple, here is your mother. From that time on, the disciple took her into his home. So this is the setting around the cross. And now verse 28. Later, knowing all that was. Knowing all that was completed now completed. And so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, I am thirsty. A jar of wine vinegar was there. So they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus's lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, it is finished. With that he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Now, as the day of preparation. And the next day was to be a special Sabbath, because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath. That's back to that Deuteronomy 23. They asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. Again, I'm assuming that's John talking about himself. He knows that he tells the truth and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled. Not one of his bones was broken. That's Exodus 12, Numbers 9, Psalm 34. There's like three different ones. And as another scripture says, they will look on the one that they have pierced. So that's the. The death of Jesus on the cross. So I'll just let you guys go with where you want to go from? There's a lot to unpack here.

[Zach]

But, yeah, the first thing is, I think, to look at is that how much of the Old Testament should come to mind as you read this? You mentioned several of those messianic prophecies about not one of his bones will be broken. But the passage that you read begins with Jesus carrying his own cross. And the first thing that popped in my mind was Genesis 22, because this is a typology of Genesis 22, where you had Isaac the son. Right. Jesus is the son of God. Isaac is the son of. Of Abraham. Isaac is going up to be sacrificed. Jesus is going up the hill of Golgotha to be sacrificed. Isaac is carrying his own wood, the instrument of his death. Right. Because he's going to be offered up on the wood sacrifice. Jesus is carrying the wooden cross. Abraham says God will provide the lamb. Jesus is the lamb. So you're seeing in this moment all of this Old Testament prophecy and imagery and typology being, I don't want to say replicated, because this is not a replication. This is actually the fulfillment of it. This is like everything that that was pointing to, all of that Old Testament imagery, all of those stories that were retold, all of the history, the heritage, the identity of Israel, it was all pointing right here to Jesus actually fulfilling it. So right here, Jesus is fulfilling. Isaiah 22. I'm sorry, Genesis 22.

[Jason]

No, that's good. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's. There's all over the place. There's a lot of. A lot of the reasons why Jesus did some of the things he did and said. Some of the things he said was to fulfill some of those roles that had been around the whole time. One of the things I thought was interesting is this line. It is finished. When you look it up in the. In the original language, it's just one word. It just means paid. And. Which was interesting that that was the word he chose at the end was just paid. Paid. You know, it is finished, meaning it's done everything. That's why this moment is so incredibly rich in the sense of the bigness of it, because he basically is saying, I just paid for the sin of everyone that's ever lived. I mean, it happened literally in this.

[Zach]

Well, yeah, because what you have is they crucified him and with two others, one on either side and Jesus between them. So, again, think about the topology of the Old Testament. In Leviticus, if you remember, on the day of atonement, they would take two goats that were used, one slain and the other would be sent into the wilderness. That would be bearing the census. We get the. You ever heard the term scapegoat? He's a scapegoat, meaning that we just blame it on him. My family, I'd be like, when I was growing up, I'm always the scapegoat. And what I meant by that is I'm always the one you guys are blaming for everything thing. Well, what Jesus is doing here, he's actually becoming the scapegoat. He's actually bearing the sins of humanity in this. He's actually. That would happen on that day of atonement. And so when you read like a passage like Isaiah 53, that he was numbered with the transgressors. The transgressors. So Jesus now is taking on the sin of humanity. He is now the church true atoning figure. He's hanging between two sinners. But, I mean, he's the one that has taken on both the role of the sacrificial goat and he's taking on the role of the scapegoat bearing the sins of the people. So it's interesting what's happening here is Jesus is actually taking on both sides of the Leviticus 16 atonement mechanism.

[Jay]

Yeah, I was going to read that, Zach. I think that's really good. When you go back to Leviticus 16, you see that part of this ritual was to make the most holy place clean for God's presence to dwell. Because people usually who haven't read Leviticus, like, in detail, they think, well, all these animal sacrifices were just about atoning for sin. But then, you know, when you get to Hebrews, it says statements like, well, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to atone for sin. So when you kind of look at the details, you see that it was just a reminder. And part of that process was making the place holy so they literally wouldn't die at the presence of God. Did I sum that up accurately, Zach, before I read it?

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jay]

I'd like to just read a little bit of it and give you the picture because I'm glad you brought this up. In verse 15 of Leviticus 16, it says, he shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering of the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood. He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it in this way. Now, here's the key point. He will make atonement for the most holy place, which is where God and the priests are going to meet because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting. He kind of says the same thing, going to the holy place in verse 17. And then I'm looking for this goat. Where do we get into the two goats?

[Zach]

So in the time that I've been endorsing PureTalk, my wireless company, I can honestly say that I've never seen an offer like this from them before. I mean seriously, just take a listen to this. This is absolutely insane. Unlimited talk, unlimited text, unlimited data, plus a 30 gig hotspot for just 29, 95 month. And that price. Here's the deal. It's locked in for life. This is Pure Talks top tier plan. It Normally cost about 65 bucks a month, but now through December 7th. So this isn't going to last long. It's just 29.95. That's over 50% savings every month for life the rest of your life. Yes, that's on their 5G network. But heads up, this deal will not be around long. Make the switch today. Tell your friends about it and save a ton of money with Pure Talk. Look, switching is easy. I've done it. You can do it in as little as 10 minutes. All you got to do is go to PureTalk.com Unashamed to grab their best unlimited plan for just 29.95amonth for life. Make the switch today in as little as 10 minutes. Keep your phone, keep your number and start saving with unlimited for life for 29.95amonth. Again, that's PureTalk.com unashamed to switch to my wireless company PureTalk. Taxes and fees not included. Some restrictions apply. See PureTalk.com for details. Offer ends December 7, 2025.

[Jason]

Yeah, okay.

[Jay]

Verse 18 then. Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for so the altar itself, he shall take some of the bloods of the bull and some of the goat's blood. And so then when you get to verse 20, it says when Aaron has finished making atonement for the most holy place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He's to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites, all their sins and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of Someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place and the man shall release it in the wilderness. And some. Some of the instances where that is depicted, they use the Hebrew word Azazel and you can go do a rabbit hole. I'm not going to do it today. But it's associated with like the idea of things that are anti God, especially in the kind of demonic world or satanic world, the spiritual forces of evil world. So it's like the picture you're getting is God is wanting them to get that picture where you're taking the sins and getting it out, because it doesn't belong here in the presence of God into the wilderness.

[Zach]

That's a key point you made about the place being consecrated, about the place being cleansed. It is about a place. And that's the. I think this is the. Okay, this is like, to me where the whole thing, like it hinges on this.

[Jay]

Well, simplify, so everyone can understand what you're fixing to say. Because I'm.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's a good. Yeah. Well, here's what I'm thinking. If your theology or your eschatology leads you to de. Emphasize the place that I'm. That there is a place, then if it's all like the. Ooh, like ghosty. Everything's ghosty. If that's how. That's not what this is. This clearly is about a place. And so when you mentioned Hebrews, I wanted to read the Hebrews 13 passage that says the high priest.

[Jay]

That's what I was fixed to read.

[Zach]

Yeah, you were going to Hebrews 13.

[Jay]

I'm at Hebrews 13 because that was the practical illustration I was going to make for us in the transition of that. But you go ahead and read it. But I wanted to read at least verse 11 through 15.

[Zach]

That's where I was going to. The high priest carries the blood of animals into the most holy place, which Jase just read about in Leviticus as a sin offering. But the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

[Jay]

So there's that scapegoat. There was the live goat that went into the wilderness outside the city and died. He took that emblem of what they were doing and embodied the entire process.

[Zach]

Yeah, he was both sides. He was both goats. Then he says, let us then go to him outside the camp bearing the disgrace he bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. That's the one in Revelation 22 through Jesus. Therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that openly prophesy his name. And do not forget to do good and share with others. For with such sacrifices God has pleased. So Jesus is both on the scapegoat and the sacrificial goat side of this. Well, here's where this matters about the place. So why does it matter? Because again, going back to what we've already said, Jesus is about to hit the place of his body is about to die. And the place of his body is going to be resurrected. And the place of Jesus body is going to be the cornerstone of a new holy place. So in this particular instance, they're talking about in Leviticus, they're talking about the holy place in the temple, the holy of holies, where the Ark of the Covenant resides, where God's presence resides. And there can be no sin in the Ark of the Covenant. What happens if my body becomes a temple? Well, now all of a sudden my body has to be clean. Sin can't be in my body and God dwell there. Well, how is that going to happen? Because sin is in my body. I am a sinner. That's the whole thing. Jesus becomes the atoning sacrifice and the scapegoat. He becomes a sacrifice to pay for the sin of the people, to take on the sin of the people, to take on my sin, and then to take that sin out of me and take it into the wilderness. Jesus accomplishes what those two goats signified. Jesus actually accomplishes that and makes my body the temple of the Holy Spirit, the holy place of God.

[Jason]

But not only that, not only is it the two goats, he's also the Passover lamb, which is the significance of not breaking his legs. Because a Passover lamb had to be unblemished. It could have broken bones. So even down to the prophecy of that, we see this perfect sacrifice and you see it play itself out in who Jesus is, both. And he fulfills every role. That's why I believe that Pilate unwittingly, by turning loose Barabbas, was his attempt of having a scapegoat. I mean, he wanted Barabbas to be the sacrifice, but the people said no. And so Barabbas was let go and he was full of sin. He was an insurrectionist. He was all these things. But what he didn't know was Jesus was going to fulfill the role of all of those Old Testament copies that you see well, and I want to.

[Jay]

Read the verse to go along with what Zach said in Ephesians 2. I know we've read this many times, but after what Zach just said, just listen to this. In him, this is 2, 21. The whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord and in him, in Christ. You are being built together. So you are the building. That is the place. Human beings becoming a dwelling in which God lives by his Holy Spirit. That's what he accomplished. That's why we went through this whole deal about the Spirit.

[Jason]

I want to read this as well, while we still have time on this podcast, because I believe the two criminals in the picture on either side of Jesus are representative of every person, of every person who's ever lived or who lived in this moment. Whoever would, would, will live. Listen to this conversation in Luke 23, because John doesn't give it. But listen to this. This is the ultimate choice. So Jesus is here. He's the perfect sacrifice. He's also the scapegoat. And here's the two criminals on either side. And in verse 39 of Luke 23, one of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him. Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us. So there's one. There's one person, the one who says, I want to be. I want to get out of this situation for no other reason other than I just want to get out of this situation. In other words, he doesn't believe. He says, you say you're something. Get us out of this. Get me out of this situation. I don't deserve to be here when of course he does. So that's one. That's one choice. But look what the other guy says. The other criminal rebuked him. Don't you fear God since you were under the same sentence? In other words, we're all here crucified. We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then he said, jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Look at there. Here's a guy. Here's a guy that's hanging in the moment, about to be crucified for his own sinful behavior. But he sees something coming. He sees a horizon. He sees the idea of Jesus kingdom. Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in paradise. And to me, that's like the great picture of the ultimate choice that everyone has. Do I take responsibility for myself and ask Jesus to save me because I can't do it? Or do I still somehow think I can get myself out of it? So I just think everything you see around this crucifixion comes back down to the same individual choice that people have every single day, even to this very day.

[Jay]

I wanted to throw in this obscure point. Keeping this tree theme that we've been doing is going back to the garden. So an obscure verse talking about when the nation of Israel would go to war brings this up. I will guarantee you've probably never read this verse, but I'm going to read it and try to make a point. In chapter 20 of Deuteronomy, in verse 19 and 20, I'm going to read this. It says, when you lay siege to a city for a long time, because you got to remember they're having these earthly wars because God is trusting Israel to reveal his character, which they didn't do very well, but they're opposing all these other gods and kind of the spiritual forces of evil, but in an earthly way. Which nation against nation? So this is in the context of war. He says, when you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them because you can eat their fruit. So he's like, don't cut down the fruit trees. Do not cut them down. Is your war against trees? Are trees people that you should besiege them? The understood answer is no. However, you may cut down the trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you fails. And I thought that was real interesting, because in this context, you're like, well, why is he making such a big deal about that? Because that was one of their things they would do in war, is because you want to starve them out or whatever, cut down all their trees. But he's like presenting this fact that I created those trees and they're useful. If they're useful, don't cut them down. Your war is not against the trees. Which is a funny statement, which is why I wanted to bring it up. But you fast forward to what Jesus has accomplished and you talked about the Passover Al and why he did that. This is a liberation from the evil powers, which what our new war is all about. When you talk about the spiritual war, Paul goes on to say in Ephesians 6, our battle is not against flesh and blood. It's almost like the war has been escalated from our viewpoint, where the nation of Israel fighting other nations. He's like, those fruit trees I built for the good of humanity. And he's like, you don't Have a war with them, don't cut them down. But now our war is not. It's not about flesh. We're not. Whatever your problem is, it's not with somebody who has flesh. It's the spiritual forces of evil that wage war against us in the heavenly realms. And that's what ultimately Jesus is providing in the new Exodus. That's why he chose.

[Zach]

Yeah, he's bringing the kingdom. And I think that's why, like, you read this passage and there's this stuff in here you just want to skim over. Like, for example, when they take Jesus robe and they didn't tear it, they didn't tear it up. They're like, oh, we'll keep that intact. You think, oh, that's just to fulfill some messianic prophecy. And I think we're misreading it when we see it that way. God didn't take a bunch of random facts and put them in the Old Testament just so Jesus could fulfill them. Those are not random things that were in there. And so those prophecies aren't random. So I think that's a picture of actually of the kingdom that he's bringing. Because if you go back and. And we're doing a study on. We're about to be doing a study on David. And if you look at David, whenever Saul, he got rebuked by Samuel, basically telling the kingdom's going to be taken away from you, he grabs Samuel's cloak and he tears it away. And the prophecy there was, the kingdom's going to be torn away from you. And so then whenever David ends up, he cuts off a piece of Saul's robe. David doesn't actually accept what it actually means, but what it means is that the kingdom's going to be torn away from Saul and it's going to be given to David. So that tearing of the cloak is a picture of the kingdom being split, torn away. So when Jesus cloak doesn't get torn here, what's happening? In my opinion, I could be wrong on this, but I think Augustine and a few of the early church fathers would agree with me, is that this is a picture of Christ and his church. A garment that's not divided, a kingdom that's not divided, a kingdom that is whole, that can't be shaken nor destroyed. He's fulfilled. He's becoming like a king that actually will succeed in living out the kingdom here on earth.

[Jason]

What's so amazing is, because we're out of time, Zach, is that that thief on the cross recognized that and said today, when you come to your kingdom. I want to be a part of that, which is incredible. That's a great point. Which shows you the picture before you close it out.

[Jay]

I was going to read John 15. I was going the same place Zach was about the tree and its fruit. Why Jesus said, I am the vine, you're the fruit, you love one another. And I just said all that to want to say the tree of life is back because of what Jesus did on the cross and the resurrection, and it's manifested in the presence of God, being in human beings and, and seeing the fruit of the spirit.

[Jason]

That's really good, Jay. So we'll pick this up next time if you want to kind of read ahead, because we're going to look at all the things Jesus said on the cross, look at the end of the other gospels and read those accounts and we'll talk about all the things that Jesus said and did while he was on the cross. So we'll we'll pick that up next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.