Ep 1223 | John Luke Explores the Principle of “No Kings” & How Parenting Can Shape a Nation’s Future

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1223 | John Luke Explores the Principle of "No Kings" & How Parenting Can Shape a Nation’s Future

Date: December 5, 2025
Hosts: Zach, Alan (Al), John, Lou
Topic: The biblical principle of “no kings,” Israel’s desire for a king, lessons from the period of the Judges, and how parenting and leadership shape nations and faith.

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Episode Overview

This episode navigates the scriptural and practical implications of Israel’s demand for a king—contrary to God’s original design—and examines how leadership and parenting contribute to shaping future generations and even whole nations. The Robertsons dive deep into parallels between biblical stories and modern culture, drawing lessons for faith, family, and civic life. The tone is conversational, heartfelt, and laced with humor and relatable anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Foundation of Classical Christian Education (00:06–02:22)

• Al shares his experience at a classical Christian school in Idaho linked to Hillsdale College, highlighting their character-building and classical Western curriculum rooted in biblical teachings.
• Zach discusses the trivium approach (grammar, logic, rhetoric) and value in building strong foundations.
  • Quote:
    “One size doesn't fit all, so it's kind of a problem and it doesn't allow to interact with the material… these courses are great what we're doing here.” – Zach (02:34)

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2. Understanding Israel’s Desire for a King (04:20–09:29)

• The group traces Israel’s transition from Judges to kingship, emphasizing that God never intended Israel to have a monarch (“no kings”).
• They discuss the cyclical sin-repentance-leadership-victory-apathy pattern during the time of Judges.

Cultural Envy and the Demand for a King

• Zach draws a parallel to modern “no kings” protests in his town and ties the biblical narrative to Genesis 11–12 (Tower of Babel, rise of nations).
  • Quote:
    "The very thing that God created them for is now the thing that they don't want to do… We want to be like everybody else. So give us a king like every other nation." – Zach (08:02–09:29)
• Israel’s demand was driven by wanting to resemble other nations, not trust in God’s design.

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3. The Ark, Dagon, and Superstitious Kingship (11:50–13:22)

• The Philistines capture the Ark, placing it beside their god Dagon, only to find Dagon destroyed by miraculous events—showing God’s supremacy over idols.
• John considers ancient pagan gods as more than just stone idols, potentially demonic entities.
  • Quote:
    “If you can't believe in something bigger than what you would nail to the floor, then you're really probably not looking big enough.” – Alan (13:12)

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4. The Failure of Leadership—Eli and Samuel’s Children (14:38–17:53)

• Lou and John probe the phenomenon of righteous parents with unruly children and vice versa, reflecting on both biblical examples and their camp experiences.
  • Quote:
    “Sometimes it just... people just are who they are.” – John (16:57)
• Alan emphasizes personal responsibility for faith, regardless of one’s family history, and highlights breaking generational curses.

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5. The Priority of Parenting Over Ministry (17:53–21:06)

• John raises the question: Did Eli care more about his ministry than his sons?
• Alan acknowledges the trap of prioritizing ministry over family, drawing from his own struggles:
  • Quote:
    “One of my biggest mistakes was that I elevated the bride of Christ, the church, above my own bride.” – Alan (20:03)
• Zach reframes the focus of spiritual stewardship, starting with oneself and rippling outward:
  • Quote:
    “Before I worry about my own house, what's going on in my own heart. And so it all starts here in us, and then it moves out.” – Zach (21:51)

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6. The Ark as a Symbol—God’s Presence and the Dangers of Unholy Contact (22:54–25:45)

• Zach explains the symbolism of the Ark’s contents and contrasts Israel’s invisible God with pagan idols.
  • “God's presence alone consumes the idols of man. I mean, to me, that is one of the most powerful texts in scripture.” – Zach (25:45)
• Alan links this to Hebrews 12:28:
  • “Our God is a consuming fire…too powerful for us. Without the sacrificial acceptance through Christ, we can’t stand up in the presence of God.” – Alan (25:45–27:00)

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7. Divine Judgment and Human Response (27:00–29:17)

• The plague upon the Philistines, linked to mice and possibly bubonic plague, leads them to return the Ark with golden offerings.
• Lou wonders what happened to the “five golden tumors and five golden mice,” injecting humor.

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8. Israel’s Inaction and Unholy Demands (30:03–32:51)

• Zach points out Israel contributed nothing to their victory over the Philistines, yet still demanded a king.
  • Quote:
    “Not one shred of contribution from Israel...and then all of a sudden, on the backs of that, they look at the Philistines and say, ‘give us a king.’” – Zach (30:33)
• Alan reflects on the symbolism of the Ark’s contents: the rod (power), manna (provision), and tablet (protection through law), showing God's holistic presence.

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9. The Irony and Warning of Israel’s Demand (32:51–33:57)

• Zach and Alan revisit how Israel, through Samuel, was warned they would become slaves to their king—effectively returning to Egypt in spirit.
  • “Yahweh, through the prophet Samuel, is pretty much like... that's not what you want.” – Zach (33:32)

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10. Saul’s Selection and Human Complexity (34:11–38:59)

• Lou questions how Saul’s search for donkeys reflects indecisiveness; Alan and Zach see this as part of his reluctance and humanity, not outright weakness.
• Zach spotlights that biblical characters are multi-faceted—Saul is both good and deeply flawed.
  • Quote:
    “Being a human... we have our stuff. Even Eli... he’s submitting to God… I think that's the lesson: there’s a complexity to human nature.” – Zach (36:43)

The Difference Between David and Saul

• The group concludes David’s defining quality was his repentant heart, particularly illustrated in Psalm 51, in contrast to Saul’s lack of repentance.

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11. Casting Lots and God Granting Misguided Wishes (38:59–43:10)

• Lou and John ask about the practice of “casting lots,” which Alan describes as allowing God (or gods) to decide—often used to identify guilt, but here ironically to select a leader.
• Zach references C.S. Lewis on the dangers of God letting people have their own way:
  • Quote:
    “There are two kind of people... those who say to God, ‘thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, ‘thy will be done.’” – Zach (41:20)

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12. Samuel’s Regret and the Weight of Leadership (43:18–45:31)

• Lou and Alan discuss Samuel’s attachment to Saul and feelings of responsibility. Even Samuel, like others before, fails to select a successor without bias.

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13. The Corruption of Power: Saul’s Transformation (45:55–48:31)

• Zach highlights Saul’s immediate slide into tyranny, referencing his violent threats and how power can corrupt.
  • “He almost immediately shows, like, tyrannical behavior… an obsession and a demonic possession that accompanies those who would seek to contain the power that they've been given at all costs.” – Zach (46:05–48:31)
• They recommend “A Tale of Three Kings” for further perspective on leadership and power dynamics between Saul, David, and Absalom.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you can't believe in something bigger than what you would nail to the floor, then you're really probably not looking big enough.” – Alan (13:12)
• “Just because your parents don't have faith or you weren't raised in a Christian home… doesn't mean you have to be bound to that.” – Alan (15:02)
• “Before I worry about my own house, what's going on in my own heart. And so it all starts here in us, and then it moves out.” – Zach (21:51)
• “God's presence alone consumes the idols of man. That is one of the most powerful texts in scripture.” – Zach (25:45)
• “There are two kind of people... those who say to God, ‘thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, ‘thy will be done.’” – Zach, referencing C.S. Lewis (41:20)
• “He almost immediately shows, like, tyrannical behavior…an obsession and a demonic possession that accompanies those who would seek to contain the power that they've been given at all costs.” – Zach (46:18)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:06–02:22: Discussion of classical Christian education and character building.
• 04:20–09:29: Setup of Israel’s historical journey to kingship.
• 11:50–13:22: The Ark vs. Dagon—God’s superiority over idols.
• 14:38–17:53: Challenges of parenting and generational faith.
• 17:53–21:06: The pitfalls of prioritizing ministry over family.
• 22:54–25:45: Symbolism of the Ark and God’s unique presence.
• 30:03–32:51: Israel’s lack of contribution and demand for a king.
• 34:11–38:59: Saul’s introduction and the complexity of biblical characters.
• 38:59–43:10: The implications of casting lots.
• 45:55–48:31: Saul becomes king and the corrupting nature of power.

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully connects ancient Israel’s journey to modern faith, parenting, and leadership. The Robertsons emphasize that desiring what other cultures have, ignoring God’s guidance, or prioritizing ministry over family, often leads to unintended consequences. Above all, a heart that repents—like David's—is the lasting legacy, not positions of power or national conformity.

For more in-depth biblical study, listeners are welcomed to join the free online course with Hillsdale College via unashamedforhillsdale.com.

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Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you?

So welcome back to our Unashamed podcast on Friday with Hillsdale College. We are in the study of David and we're deep into it. John, look, you said you were going to go deep after that last podcast that we from last week. So you ready?

[John]

I'm ready.

[Alan]

He's always ready to go deep. It's interesting, Zach. So I, I was in Idaho last week and it was. They call it a classical Christian school. And I didn't really know what that meant because I just heard just Christian school. And so they got into some of the things, I mean, when you add the word classical, I was like, what exactly does that make it? Like more highbrow? Do you listen to the old music like Vivaldi? So I was trying to figure out and then they said joyfully classical. And I said, all right, somebody's got to explain to me what are we doing? But it was really interesting. They have a link to Hillsdale. They have a lot of their graduates go there and it's kind of the same type thing. They've been around a long time. They're totally non governmental funded and their idea is that we teach the Bible, but also the founders and all the classical works of Western civilization that were founded on this idea of who God is. And so was great, but they were just a little small group. But their school has been around for 115 years. 19.

[Zach]

So they know what they're doing.

[Alan]

They know what they're doing. That's what I. And when I got up, I said 115 years. You got to be doing something right.

[Zach]

That's why I love hills though. I do love what they're doing because we actually educated our kids, at least the older two. When they were younger. We went through classical education because we homeschooled. So we used the classical curriculum. We which it's basically divided up into three parts called the trivium. And it's. The first phase of education is like your grammar stage. It's more like memorization, learning facts and your ABCs, that kind of stuff. Then the second phase of the education is more logic. And then the final one is rhetoric. So it kind of mirrors really how we learn and it's the foundation of really how we learned in the West. So I'm a big fan of it as well.

[Alan]

Well, they had was like character building, which was really important too.

[Lou]

Now I was gonna say, is that how you keep your kids from becoming like Hoffney and Phineas? If you just have a classical contemporary.

[Alan]

Curriculum that's exactly like a homeschool. We call that the anti hoping fitness. That's exactly what it was called.

[Zach]

Yeah, well, it really is helpful because, you know, education nowadays, it's, it's, it's all one. It's like one size fits all. But one size doesn't fit all, so it's kind of a problem and it doesn't allow to interact with the material. But these courses are great what we're doing here. You can get them for free, by the way, at unashamedforhillsdel.com you can sign up. We've already done Genesis, we've done Exodus, and now we're in the story of David with Dr. Jackson, who has become a friend of ours. Al you guys text on a regular basis, correct?

[Alan]

We do. I call him J.J. now because we're friends.

[Zach]

Oh, J.J. he'll hear you.

[Lou]

I call him Dr. J. Dr. J.

[Alan]

Is another good one. But he is, and it's funny because when Dr. Arn introduces each these courses, he talks, he speaks so highly of Dr. Jackson. He is excellent. He's really more of a linguist and you know, more of a literature guy and talks about the pros of these writings. But the insight he has I find to be really helpful. And he, I love that he basically every time there's like a controversial thing he'll get into and sometimes I won't even know it's controversial because I'm not as smart as that. So I'm not sure what he's like referring to. But what he, what, what he does is he'll say, I'll leave that those guys. Let me just tell you what I think about this, and I like that because that's in essence that's what we all have to do, right? I mean none of us are, except for Zach are experts.

[Zach]

So I'm not an expert either. I, I, I've enjoyed these and thought they've been very educational. I'm a deep generalist. That's what I am. I'm not an expert deep generalist.

[Alan]

Deep generalist. I like.

[Lou]

Let me fix my glasses.

[John]

I gotta fix my glasses. As he says, I'm a deep generalist.

[Alan]

I love you, Zach. So we're in just a reset. Last week we started this is a course about David and yet we have not gotten to David and we won't again today. Maybe we'll get right to the edge of David today, but it's his story. But I love about the course, this particular course is to understand David, you almost have to understand where the whole concept came from. For kings of Israel. And the fact that that was really never God's plan or design for Israel was to have a king. I mean, it's very clear he said that. And even way back in Deuteronomy, he was mentioning that if you take a king, knowing they would. Of course, Moses said that if you take a king, here's what's going to happen. And it won't be good because they just come out of a Pharaoh situation where they've got this tyranny. He's like, you'll put somebody over you. You're going to find tyranny again. So that's the concept. And so we went through this whole period called the Judges. And you can go back and read that. Which, by the way, the Judges is a wild read, because it's a bunch of. It's like the Wild, Wild west of our history. What was going on in these settings. And it always would have this same cycle. I wrote down. You would have first this. There would be this period of defeat. Like, you know, sin had overrun. They'd gotten too much like the culture. And then something bad happens. Then you would have repentance, and it'd be like, oh, God, we got to do something different. You know, we're in a terrible situation. God would raise up a leader. You know, that's when you see the Judges. It would be. And it was a lot of unlikely people, as we've been talking about. I mean, Jephthah and all these people that nobody knew and nobody. Gideon, they never heard of him before. Even Samson, who we talked about being Nazarite, but he wasn't very spiritual at all. But he wound up being a great man. Then you would have victory. They would win and, like, defeat the foes. And then you would have apathy, and the whole process would start over again. So it was just like, there's 14 judges, and it was the same thing over and over and over again. So we get to Eli, and he's sort of now at the tail end of this cycle of the Judges. And then Samuel, who, as we said, was not really designed to be that next guy, but he was. What we don't know is when they were in the historical context is Samuel is the last guy for this. But it's not because of God's decision. It's because the people. Because they want a king. And the reason they want a king is because their biggest reason was because everybody else has one. I mean, that was their greatest reason for a king. So I thought about this idea of cultural envy sometimes how countries are, and we want to be like this country, that country, whatever. So that's the kind of the setting that leads us up to chapter five of First Samuel, where now we're going to see Saul, who becomes the first king of Israel, sort of his pathway into the kingship. But it was never designed by God. It was warned against. And yet here we are, and here we go going into it. All right, Zach, that's a historical overview.

[Zach]

Well, once a week in Black Mountain, the town that I live in, and probably Asheville, too, they have a.

A protest downtown.

[Alan]

I saw it last time I was there.

[Zach]

Yeah, no kings.

[Alan]

Yeah, no kings.

[Zach]

It's no kings. It's kind of interesting because I wonder if they may get it from this text. No king is like no king day.

[Alan]

But I almost stopped and joined them, Zach, because I'm good with no kings as well, since we're not a democracy and a republic. But I really wanted to do it because I would have been the youngest person there, and it would have made me feel good about myself.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's an older crowd. But, you know, it's interesting, though, that this premise that's happening in. I mean, if you think about how God pulled Israel out and really the formation of Israel, it began in Genesis 11. After the Tower of Babel. No, Genesis 12. Genesis 11 was the tower of Babel, and there were no nations up until this point. And then, so they're building this tower, and they're going to say, we're going to reach heaven. We're going to build our way to heaven. And God's like, no, you're not going to do that. And as a consequence, for what you're attempting to do, I'm going to actually confuse your languages. I'm going to create nations for the very first time. So he creates all these nations, and then he pulls one of those nations out for himself, which is Israel. Genesis, chapter 12. And that's when he has the conversation with Abram. And the purpose of Israel was to be separated from the other nations, and that they would draw the other nations in. They would be a light to draw the nations in to worship the one true God. So it's interesting here that the very thing that God created them for is now the thing that they don't want to do. They're like, no, we don't want to be different. We want to be like everybody else. So give us a king like every other nation. And that's kind of the foundation of the story.

[Alan]

Now, that's Good. And if you think about our last two studies, Zach, to your point, when Egypt, who was the greatest power of their day? Look what happened. It was Joseph who rose up through the ranks, a Hebrew who rose up to ranks to be the second in command, only second to Pharaoh. And so here's Israel again, infusing itself in, which then leads to the enslavement of these people. But then what happens? Those Egyptians that followed them out, Remember we studied that in Ephesians, Remember the rabble, they called them, that followed them out, the ones who were watching and saying, you know what? We might ought to be like those guys, because the bad stuff doesn't seem to be happening to them. So here it is again, another beacon to the world, and these Egyptians follow them out. Well, everybody who followed them out got saved. And it was the same when they went into Canaan, and you saw the whole story there with Rahab. If you follow God, no matter what your nationality, if you listen to his commands, if you obey him, then good things are going to happen in your life. So that becomes kind of a consistent theme, even taking us to this point. And you're right, there was nothing in the other nations for them. Why would you want to be like them? I mean, that's just everybody else has that, or there are multiple gods, or there are fertility gods or whatever. So to reset the story where we are here, you get chapter five. And remember, the story was that the two sons of Eli are killed, and during this battle that they lost, the Ark of the Covenant gets taken into custody by the Philistines. And so they don't really know what they have, but they realize that to the Israelites, this was a big loss because everybody's moaning and groaning about it. But they set it up with their God, who was called Dagon, and they've got him up on a shelf, which anytime you have to build a shelf for your God, you probably not think it big enough. It's just a general rule of thinking about it. But they put the Ark of the Covenant in the room with the Dagon, and every day they come back and comical things are happening to their God. First he falls down, then he fell down and flipped over and was facing the wrong way. Then his arms and his legs were cut off. I mean, it's almost common. I mean, I hate to laugh because I know it was their God, but it was just almost funny to me that, you know, the presence of God was there. It was like, nope, Dagon's not going to win the battle.

[Lou]

That's so funny.

[Alan]

So what do y' all think about Dagon or the story? I mean, did you laugh when you were reading about it?

[John]

Oh, yeah. No, I totally did. I thought the same thing. I thought it was kind of interesting, me thinking about these, like, old. Old Testament.

Like, spirits and, like, what they believed Dagon to be as their God, which I think could have been a real demon or, you know, on the bad side of spiritual entities that.

[Alan]

They were worshiping, which we've talked about before.

[John]

Which we've talked about before. Right.

[Alan]

I mean, that could have been representative of some heavenly realm being that wound up here.

[John]

And so they could have been really speaking to it, and it could have been really speaking back. And I, like, I just imagine when they leave, they go out of whatever the tent or the temple that Dagon was in, that there was some kind of spiritual battle between God or an angel and that spiritual entity and the spiritual entity, one every single time. Yeah.

[Alan]

And the manifestation of it was some little broken thing on the ground.

[John]

Broken thing on the ground. Right.

[Alan]

Which I just. Again, you know, it's not just that they were ancient. It's not like you're looking back in time saying, oh, these people are stupid. Because, you see, people today are superstitious about all sorts of things.

[John]

Totally.

[Alan]

But if you can't believe in something bigger than what you would nail to the floor, then you're really probably not looking big enough. I mean, there's got to be something more to it than that.

[Lou]

Yeah. I want to get yalls take on kind of this next portion, because the Philistines end up returning to the Ark, and they send them a guilt offering. And then from there, Dr. Jackson talks about the people demanding a king and talking about how even Samuel's sons did not follow in his ways. Kind of maybe not as bad as Eli's sons were. But similar to that, I was just, you know, getting yalls take on that. Why do you feel like. Because, I mean, you read all the major things Eli did. You read about all the amazing things Samuel did, and even his sons didn't follow in his ways, and they were wicked and cruel. But then you look at someone like Saul who's. I mean, Jonathan, Saul's son, is an amazing person, but Saul's not Samuel, you know, and you even have David. And David, you know, I guess Solomon was great, but you have Absalom. And David's other sons were not good people, but David was an amazing person. So I feel like sometimes it's just the way God wills it. And I Feel like sometimes there's no rhyme or reason for why Samuel's kids were terrible and why somehow Jonathan, coming from Saul's lineage, ended up being a great guy.

[Alan]

It's a really valid point. And my take on it always has been, if you are a person of faith, you can't assume that your children are going to follow the Lord because of your faith. Your faith will take them only so far. And at some point they've got to make that decision. You're trying to craft that and you're trying to restrain as much as you can. We talked about that the last podcast.

In the case of where you have someone that's not so great, I think the best lesson is you don't have to be bound by your parents lack of faith. I've had so many people I've talked to through the years that said, well, you guys are always talking about the father, the father and how much you love the father, and my father's terrible, you know, and then they just rant, you know, about how bad it is. And then I'm always like, well, then you need to know about our Heavenly Father. Because I get it, you're hurt. I hear it. I hear it in your voice. But you don't have to be bound to their mistakes and turn out just like him. You can elevate, you can do something different. So I think either way, the answer is in turning to faith. And just because your parents wouldn't don't have faith or you aren't raised in a Christian home in our case, doesn't mean you have to be bound to that. And to continue a generational curse of a lifestyle, anybody can make the change. And you know, Lisa and I, when we share our story, Lisa always, when she shares it, it just brings me to tears every time because she broke a lot of generational curses in her family. And if she had just continued on a path without God and without Christ, she would have been bound to that. But she did. At some point, you just have to say, no, I'm going to be different. Make sure you go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up, no cost for this course. And you're gonna love it.

[John]

This is actually my question I was gonna ask in the previous podcast, talking about Eli.

Before I say this, I wanna make a caveat and just to bounce off what Al said too. At Camp Chioka, I've seen kids, you know, I see 1500 kids ish a summer. And I've seen them every year for the last 10 years grow up. I saw a girl today who was, who's in college, who I've seen as a day giver from 5 years old girl all the way up. And I see them year after year, every week, and I see their siblings and their whole family. And sometimes.

You have parents who are incredible. You can tell they're Christian. You can tell they're super involved and the kid is just terrible. And sometimes you have parents who are the worst people I've ever met in my life. And their kids are just the best person, you know, they're awesome. Sometimes I see brothers who are, you know, two brothers. One is awesome, one's terrible. And it, it seems like there's no very little rhyme or reason to how, you know, it is with their parents. But that is kind of the edge cases, you know, in some sense. But I want to make that caveat to say sometimes it just. People just are who they are and they.

[Lou]

Even from the beginning. Yeah, you have Cain and Abel.

[John]

Right.

[Lou]

It's like, I don't know if I would be like, well, maybe Adam didn't nurture Cain, you know, like, I don't know if you could have that whole discussion. But yeah, I think it's just deeply flawed in us as humans.

[John]

Right. But I want to make a. I say that to make this point about Eli, because this is a question that I had just a different kind of take I wanted to get your thoughts on. I'm not saying this is a correct reading or not. This is just a thought I had. Whenever it says, Eli heard that his sons died and then he heard that the ark fell, and when the ark fell, he fell over and died. One commentary I read made the point of this was because Eli was so dedicated to God that when he heard the ark fell, he fell. But my thought was it almost kind of shows that Eli was more concerned with the ministry than with his kids because losing the ark impacted him more than losing his kids. And on some sense, I'm like, what if the reading was, if had Eli have focused more on his kids and less on the ministry that he was trying to build, maybe his kids would have turned out differently. Because I see that with pastors who focus all about their ministry. And it's not because it's like on some level it's like, oh, yeah, they're following God, but you know, on some level it's like they're trying to win whatever business they're in. They see ministry as a business. They focus so much on the speaking, the teaching, the church, they ignore their own family and then their kids turn out crazy.

[Zach]

That's very, very common.

[Alan]

It's a very, very fair point. And as being a guy who was in career ministry, it is very prevalent. You're exactly right, John. Lou I struggle with it, no doubt about it. And I didn't set out to do it. It's not like I said, okay, I'm going to be so excited about the church and my mission work and everything else that I'm just going to leave Lisa and the kids behind. But that's exactly what I did. And in the midst of it, when you're doing it, you don't notice it, but that's a great possibility that maybe the reason the kids were so bad, maybe those two sons were so bad, is because he just wasn't paying attention to what was happening with them that he would just not even notice. How would you not know this?

[John]

Right.

[Alan]

And so I think it's a very valid point. And I always used to say that one of my biggest mistakes was that I elevated the bride of Christ, the church, in my case, because that's what I work for, above my own bride. And at the very least, they should have been equal.

At the very least, equal. And so that resentment that built up over the first 15 years of mine and Lisa's marriage led to terrible things. And again, that was no excuse for mistakes Lisa made. But I was helping provide an atmosphere by which the evil one could come in and do what he does best. And that's make things look really tempting and good when they're really evil. And so I think as men of God, the four of us having this conversation, and all of us have wives and children and in my case, grandchildren, is we don't want to provide an atmosphere that makes it easy for the evil one to deceive anyone we care about. And so we should at least have them on equal par with anybody else we're trying to work with. I mean, that's what I've learned through the years. So that's an excellent.

[Zach]

Yeah, we got the benefit now of. Back then, the temple was the ministry, and attending to the temple was the work of the vocation of the priests.

Now.

The temple is us. And so, yeah, do I want to get involved in the geopolitical sphere and see good emerge there? Yes. But I probably should take care of what's happening in the US Before I worry about what's happening in China. Right. Well, before I worry about what's happening in the federal government, I may want to worry about what's happening in My state first. And before I worry about what's happening in my state, I probably should think about my own town. And before I worry about my own town, I want to. What's going on? My own house.

Before I worry about my own house, what's going on in my own heart. And so it all starts here in us, and then it moves out. So we have that benefit now of knowing that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. And I want to return back to that story about this idol that was in the same area as the Ark, because I think that's an interesting story of Dagon and how he would, like, they would come back in and he's like, arms are cut off. I mean, like, just completely wrecked by Yahweh. They. Man, I wonder what was happening in that room when nobody was around. But you got to think about what they had in their possession. They had the Ark of the Covenant, which was constructed in the story of Exodus. Right? We get the whole story of that. And if you remember, it had a. A seat on the top of it. Inside the Ark of the Covenant was, I think it was like three things. The rod of Aaron, it was a jar of mana. And then it was the.

[Alan]

The stone tablets.

[Zach]

The stone tablets. And so, I mean, it wasn't anything like. There was no like. Like weapons or anything. Like it's. It's like these seemingly random parts.

[Alan]

Wasn't there little swirly things that came out, and then when they came through you, it melted your whole face off. Wasn't there that. Because I saw that on a movie one time. You're thinking of Indiana Jones.

[Zach]

Indiana Jones, yeah.

[John]

That's if they opened it, though.

[Alan]

Yeah, but I guess that was floating around in the sand.

[Zach]

But on top of the Ark was the mercy seat. And it had. It was guarded by the two cherubim, which is emblematic of what, the Tree of Life, which is guarded by the cherubim. So you have the cherubim on top of the seat guarding the presence of God. They're guarding the way back to the Tree of Life. So this goes all the way back to Genesis. You think, well, why are they there? What do they have in their possession? Well, that's where the weapon was. They had the flaming swords. Right. And so they had the swords. And the idea is that if you try to get back into the presence of God without any kind of atonement, like covering your sin, covering your. Like, you won't survive. You cannot stand in his presence. And so I read this in Gregory Beals book about the temple, he gave like four or five different differences between the Temple of Israel or the Tabernacle and versus, like pagan temples. Because there are a lot of similarities. But here's which Dr. Jackson mentioned when we were in this study, the similarities to the old temples. But this is what he says. He says one of the major differences in the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple and the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies of God's temple was that in all of the pagan temples there was an idol. So think, Dagon, there's these idols. But there was no such thing in the holy of Holies, since God's being cannot be seen, much less an image of it reproduced by human craft. And I thought, ma', am, you think about this scene where they bring in this ark, there's no idol, and then they have their idol. And God's presence alone is in, like, it's signified in this ark of the covenant on that mercy seat. And his presence alone consumes the idols of man. I mean, to me, that is one of the most powerful text in scripture. And to think about that these armies and these kings and these principalities, these powers in our world, could not stand against God's ark of the covenant.

[Alan]

Now, in fact, when you were saying that, Zach, I was thinking about Hebrews 12:28, which describes the kingdom of God. And it says, the Hebrew writer said, therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire. And that idea of how powerful the presence of God is. And Zach, you've talked about this before. The reason Moses couldn't look at the face of God and couldn't even be near God's presence without glowing literally, is because it's too powerful for us. And as sinful people, without the sacrificial acceptance through Christ, we can't stand up in the presence of God. We can't even function there. It's too powerful for us to do. And which I think way back In Genesis, when Dr. Jackson made the point that I'd never thought about before, that it was merciful to eject Adam and Eve out of the garden once they recognized their own flaws, because otherwise they'd have tried to be in the presence of God as sinful creatures, and it doesn't work. It cannot work.

[Zach]

I think that's what's going on here. I think part of this is not because we want to read this text and you say, well, the hand of the Lord was Heavy against the. The people of Ashdod. And he terrified and afflicted them with tumors, both Ashdod and its territory. And I think we want to read that thing. Almost as if God's levying this out, which I think he is. I think he is doing that. But I think it's the very nature of being in his presence, unholy. I mean, even in this. God's obviously withholding. Like, he's withholding what. What. What. What should fully consume them. And instead of being fully consumed and eradicated, they're just. They're getting a little taste of it. Their tumors are popping up, and they're like, whoa.

[Alan]

So that they'll send it back. Like, yeah, get it out of here. That's the whole point. Which, yeah, get. Get this. Get this thing out of here. Which they do. Which is pretty amazing. But let me. Let's talk about this, because when I first read Tumors of the Growing, I was like, what in the world? And then I read a lot of different things about it, and I've heard it. Everything's been hemorrhoids to all this different stuff. But the thing that made the most sense to me, it was actually from this book that is kind of our companion study, which is Robert Alter's book. He did the work we did in Genesis and Exodus as well. This is what. When Dr. Jackson reads. He's reading from this. And there was. In the commentary, he talked about bubonic plague. And. And I didn't know much about bubonic plague till I looked it up. And it was carried by rats. Mice, you know, which. We have the mice here in the story. And at first you don't see it. You see that later on the. On the. So you wonder where the mice come from. Well, this disease is carried by mice. When it's transferred to humans, it affects your lymph nodes. So it's under your armpits and in your groin where you have the most lymph nodes. So you get all this swelling because of this plague, you know, this viral plague that's brought in by the rat. So it sounds like. I mean, it'd be something totally different, but it makes sense. That's probably what it was because that word means growing bubons from bubonic plague. And so it's really interesting because the very thing that were recognized as why they had the plague.

I guess the litmus was put to them, that the offering is, we need five of those tumors, gold, and five of those rats. And you send that back with the ark and we'll see what we can do for you. And it was such an odd thing, but at the same time, it was the idea that you have to be willing to repent, which they did. You should have never taken the Ark. And two, you have to do something. You have to obey God. And the obedience was, we're going to send some. And I wonder whatever happened to the five golden tumors and the five golden mites? Because they wound up someplace. They're probably still out there buried somewhere.

[Lou]

You should go look for them.

[Alan]

I should look for it?

[Lou]

No, you should talk to Jay.

[Alan]

That's exactly right.

[Lou]

We could do a. Jay should just go to the Middle east with the metal detector.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Looking for five golden mice and five golden tumors here. What.

[Zach]

Think about this, though. What did Israel. What did Israel do? What was their contribution? Because essentially this is the Philistines being defeated. Right? They're defeated to the point where they're sending back golden rats and golden tumors. But what was Israel's contribution?

[Alan]

Zip.

[Zach]

None.

[Lou]

Not a.

[Zach]

Not one shred of contribution from Israel. And then all of a sudden, on the backs of that.

They look at the Philistines and they say, give us a king. I thought that was such a great point that Dr. Jackson brought out that they said, give us a king right after they saw the Ark of the Covenant defeat the Philistines. I mean, you cannot make this type of belligerence happen.

[Lou]

Yeah, that's crazy. That is crazy. I forgot he made that point.

[John]

I do. Like how the Israelites, whenever the Philistines.

Wanted to get rid of their hemorrhoids and were ready to send it back, we're like, what do we have to do to send it back? Like, how do we get rid of this thing? And the Israelites are like, we also need a little gold. Like, we'll take it, but you gotta throw a little extra in there just to make sure that it all goes away.

[Alan]

I love that.

[John]

And they did.

[Alan]

Well, Zach, I hadn't ever thought about it until you were mentioning about the ark and describing it. That those three things I had not really thought about until we'd had this discussion. That if you think about the staff, in my mind, that represents the power of God, because that's where. Remember the first symbols and signs that Moses did and then also imparting the Red Sea. Remember the staff was at the part of every bit of it striking the rock.

[Zach]

Do you know what it's called in Scripture?

[Alan]

What?

[Zach]

The Rod of God or the Staff of God. Francis Schaefer wrote about this in One of his books, I can't remember which one, but he had a whole thing on this that it's this seemingly dead piece of wood. Yeah, but that's the point. Like, it was the rod of God. So the power wasn't the rod, but it was the rod of God.

[Alan]

I just love the symbolism. So you got the power in the staff, and then you have the manna, which was God's provision, because God's just raining this food down to let them know that I'm with you. Quit worrying about the leeks and the onion. I'm there. And then you got his protection in the law, because mainly they're protection from each other, but also from him because he says, I'm your only God. You got to trust in me. So you walk your way through the law, and the law was given as a protection, not as something. And even to show us that we couldn't do it on our own. So you put the protection, the power and the provision together, and you get the presence of God, which was protected by these angels, which I just found that fascinating. I never really thought about that until you just said it. So thank you, Zaddy. You gave me. That's a sermon, that is.

[Zach]

And just to remind you guys, every Friday we're doing this. You can join us for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College, and you can check it [e-mail] and join in here with us. But, you know what's interesting about the story is how many times that the Exodus is referenced, and it's a story that they continue to go back to. And so whenever there's the warning when they're like, give us a king. Give us a king. We want a king. Like the other nations. Give us a king. Give us a king. They're just demanding a king. And Yahweh, through the prophet Samuel, is pretty much like.

That'S not what you want. In fact, if you get this king, what's going to happen is you are going to become his slaves. In other words, you're going to return back to Egypt. And so he's evoking that memory of the Exodus. And he said, why would you want to go back to that? And they actually choose. They actually say, no, we want the king. We want the slavery. And everything that was prophesied by Samuel actually came to pass.

[Lou]

I have a few questions of what happens next in the lecture, because, you know, from now it goes to the anointing of Saul and then the election of Saul, then he kind of talks about Samuel's final warning. So it talks about the anointing of Saul.

[John]

Right?

[Lou]

And we're introduced to Saul as, you know, he's a donkey herder from Benjamin. And the story really starts with him out looking for his father's donkeys. And Dr. Jackson talked about this, and I've heard almost every other one talk about, you know, from, like, a commentary standpoint on kind of Saul's indecisiveness at the very beginning if he's looking for these donkeys. And then he starts worrying about what's his father gonna think. And I'm always kind of confused by that, of, you know, of like, how does that story resemble indecisiveness rather than just if I'm out looking for something that my dad sent me to do. And I'm like, well, it's getting late. My dad might be worried about me, so I'm just gonna go home and tell him what happened. I feel like sometimes I wouldn't equate that to being an indecisive person.

[John]

I don't know.

[Lou]

But I just wanted to hear y'.

[Alan]

All'S thoughts on that, because that's how we introduced it. My guess would be it's because of what happens next, because I'm with you. I thought the same thing. That alone probably wouldn't describe that. But if you put that together with. When they're finally looking for the king and the lot has fallen to him and he's hiding out in the baggage, he probably doesn't. He doesn't really want the job, which, again, doesn't necessarily make him indecisive. It just makes him unsure whether he needs to be this person or not that they're looking for. And I. I think about it in terms of what would happen. I've had people call me, as I've gotten older about trying to get into politics, you know, because we've been kind of unashamed about our political views. And so people in Louisiana, they're like, well, you know, you're. With your name. You, Robertson name. You know, have you considered running for representative or running for governor or whatever? And I'm like. My instant thought is, are you crazy? Like, I want no part of that, but. But I also want good people in government. But I'm just like. But I would just feel like that's not for me. Like, I would be. And people are trying. They're like, well, we'll raise money. I mean, Zach's been through this before. We'll raise money, and you can do this. And I'm not even questioning that. I could do it, but I don't want to do it. And so I think if that's indecisiveness, maybe, but maybe it's just like he's not sure that's what he needs to be doing. And really, since God has said, don't do this, he was really right to try to denounce the whole thing. I mean, in a sense, I was right all along. Yeah.

[Zach]

I think it shows, though, the human nature and that the. It's not. A lot of. It's kind of complex being a human. Right. I mean, I think all these stories are interwoven. We. It's easier for us just to see the person to be like, they're absolutely evil and horrible.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Or they're 100 wonderful and good. And that's not really any of our stories. We all have our stuff. We have our. Even Eli. Eli's character here, I mean, he's like, man, the guy's like, lost the ark. Literally gave away the Ark of the Covenant. Kind of a big deal. You didn't do your one job. You didn't do it. His kids were a wreck. But then again, he's submitting to God whenever God tells him what he's going to do. And I think the same thing is going on with Saul. There are really good qualities about Saul. He's not 100% evil now. He becomes very wicked in the end. And I think that's the lesson for us, is that we all have that propensity to be that. And I'm not getting into a whole discussion on total depravity. I just mean, I'm just speaking in terms of, like, there's a complexity to human nature. And then you have David. And David murdered, goes on to murder Uriah, and has an affair with Bathsheba.

[Alan]

And, I mean, really wrecks the kingdom. I mean, with a lot of bad.

[Zach]

Decisions, 100%, he wrecks the kingdom. Look at what happens after Solomon. I mean, and Solomon did not end well. I mean, read Solomon's story. I mean, he did not finish well. And so you think, man, he wasn't a great guy either, but then. But he kind of was a great guy. And, you know, it's complex. And I think there's a thread that runs through it that is the distinguishing factor between who's a good guy and who's not a good guy. And it turns out it's not really about what you have done in your performances. Do you have a repentant heart? Do you repent do you turn? Do you confess? Do you repent? David had wrote Psalm 51. Saul never. Had never did anything like that, had saul wrote Psalm 51. Created me a clean heart. O God, renew a steadfast spirit of me. Don't take your holy spirit from me. You know, a broken spirit and a contrite heart you will not despise. Like, surely God forgive me, Lord. And he falls on his face before the Lord when confronted by Nathan. And I think that's the big difference between what makes David. David and everybody else that we're talking about here is he had the heart of that would repent and turn back to God when he made a mistake.

[Lou]

Yeah. Can y' all explain the casting the lots a little more? Because Dr. Jackson talked about it with Jonah when Jonah was actually the guilty party on the boat. And when they're trying to choose the king of Israel, they cast the lots again, which, whoever it falls on, is the guilty party. So I was kind of confused.

[Alan]

Yeah. So this is ancient. This goes way back. You see it happen in several cases. One is in the story of Jonah, to go back even further or to go forward. And you see the story of Jonah where they're trying to figure out why all these bad things are happening on the boat. And then they cast the lights and realize, oh, it's this guy. And so, you know, and he's like, well, throw me in. Then they're all afraid to happen. So the idea was, is you're letting. In their case it was God's, but you're letting God decide who the guilty party is that's doing these things. And so they would cast lots. And I don't know there's anything we could probably.

[John]

Essentially, they were like dice.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, I knew the dice, but I don't know why, because you're just.

[Alan]

Saying, since we don't know what they were saying is God, you've got to tell us, or gods, you have to tell us. And so they would cast these to then eliminate down to one person. So that's what happened. And then. So another better story is the story of Achan back in Joshua 7, because you remember God had said, if anybody takes anything, you know, when the cities in Jericho is destroyed, then bad things are going to happen. Well, all of a sudden, bad things are happening. Everybody said, well, what happened? So they went back and they cast lots and they all fell down. This little guy, Achan, who took some things that he shouldn't have taken, and then everybody knew it was him. So it was just another One of those. I think the interesting thing about it in this particular case is that they were choosing a king this way.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And of course, Dr. Jackson Point was, well, isn't that really, though the whole picture is that, you know, we come down to our own guilt because none of us have ability to really lead and really be who we say we are. So he used it as kind of a contrast picture.

[Zach]

Kind of like he was saying. It's kind of like he's saying that God would be saying, okay, if you want a king, that's fine, but I'm going to choose him. But in my choosing, I'm going to expose your heart. In my choosing. And so the quote that I wrote down in my notes when he said this is this whole process, I thought about the C.S. lewis quote where he says that there are two kind of people in this world. Those to whom.

[Alan]

Those.

[Zach]

Those who say to God, thy will be done. And then those to whom God says, thy will be done. And so it kind of turns out that the wrath of God, a lot of times you look at. Read the book of Romans, Romans 1, the wrath of God can actually be God. Just saying, okay, here, have what you want. Like, that can be his wrath. His wrath is not always like, I'm pouring wrath out on you. It could just be like, okay, you want that? All right, I'm going to give you what you want. Thy will be done. And so that's what's happening here. The thing they're demanding will actually become their demise. The thing that they're demanding will actually be the vehicle through which they will be in bondage and slavery. And that's the prophecy that he sells. But they're like, no, we want a king. We want a king. We want a king. He's like, okay, here's your king. That's how I interpret it. So the lot becomes like a. When he says was like how you would identify who was cursed or who the guilty party was. It's almost like here saying, okay, you guys are guilty. You're the guilty party.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah.

[John]

I took it as like, from a literary standpoint, like the perversion of the right way to use it. Like, you're supposed to use it to find the guilty party, but they're perverting that to decide on the king that God that they're not supposed to get anyways. They're trying to use it in a good way whenever it's supposed to be used for a different way.

[Lou]

Yeah. Because it's interesting. Sorry, sorry. Continue what you're saying.

[John]

I was going to say, and I think that to kind of echo what Zach said, like what the person God chooses is the person, the exact stereotype of what they want. Tall, good looking, from a rich family, like he's God's basically saying like I'm just going to give you everything you want so you can. And then you'll see the results of it.

[Lou]

Because it's interesting of where because you kind of talked about this earlier, Alan, it seems like Saul does not want to be king at the beginning.

[Alan]

Right.

[Lou]

He's hiding. But then later on in the story he won't give up the kingship. And then it becomes his biggest in the later lectures. Yeah, Dr. Jackson talking about it. If Saul would have just given up his kingship and just repented, you know, his demise would not have happened. And I kind of wonder because at least so far he hasn't. Dr. Jackson hasn't talked about this but of why Samuel was so like why he could not let Saul go because he's Samuel's pleading later in the chapters he's pleading to God on behalf of Saul. And I kind of wonder of that, of about the beginning of if Samuel's kind of feels like a guilt for Saul of he did not, at least initially he did not want this. So you kind of feel like that burden of Samuel Torsall of Saul's thrusted into this thing that he necessarily didn't want. So Samuel maybe kind of feels like a guilt of put him in this position. And I kind of feel bad about it.

[Alan]

Well, I think it's a great observation. And I also think Samuel had to have thought. I mean think about it. He's the last of the judges, he's the last of the prophets that has been leading Israel supposedly with God in charge and not necessarily him. And now all of a sudden he couldn't cut it either. I mean his kids weren't ready. Same problem, you know, they weren't faithful and so. Right. It got passed on. And so I think he feels linked to that. I think there is a certain truth to that. And that's why he does have a problem. And you know it's true because we're going to get to this in the next lecture. But when it comes to David's anointing, Samuel makes the same mistake again. Remember, the older son steps up and he said now this guy that looks like a Little saw point 2.0 right here, you know, he has the same reaction. And you think after this time you'd say, come on man, have you not Learned. So I do think this is. I think this goes back to our last podcast. We talk about strengths and weaknesses and how many times they're intertwined. And I think it shows some of Samuel's. And it shows a lot of saws, because. And I don't know if that's in this story or not, but, you know, immediately Saul all of a sudden just goes, thunder on everybody and goes, what do you say? Berserker. That maybe the next podcast. But that's exactly what he does, so he sure went from a guy who didn't want the job.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Alan]

To burn this sucker down. You know, the next thing. I mean, it shows that there was something there, you know, that was there, though. But don't forget to sign up to take the course for [e-mail]. it's where all the lectures are. And of course, you're getting our take on it as well. What else? We're about out of time. Any other thoughts you guys have?

[Zach]

Yeah, I had one more. I think it was interesting that as soon as Saul got into power.

You know, he hacked up the ox and he sent it around town to basically say, anybody that crosses me, this is your fate. So he almost immediately.

Shows, like, tyrannical behavior. And this is interesting to me because there's a really good book that a guy named. You guys know, Josh Turner. I don't know if y' all know him or not.

[Alan]

Singer. He's.

[Zach]

No, he. He came and he's a pastor. He's been in town. I know you know him.

[Alan]

He's been. Oh, yeah, yeah, that Josh Turner.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. So he. He told. He told me this one. He said, man, he gave me a book to read. It was called A Tale of Three Kings.

[Lou]

I read that book.

[Zach]

It's so good. You read it? It's so good. But it's about three people. Saul, David, and then Absalom. And each one of those people. I think it's Absalom. I'm pretty sure it's Absalom. Anyways, each one of those people, they represent, like, a particular power dynamic. And Saul was obviously the king that was in power then. David was the man that was waiting to take his spot, which Dr. Jackson mentioned. I mean, surely David knew he was the Anointed One. He knew he was going to be king at some point. And look at how he honored Saul throughout the entire process. And look at how Saul, being in power, did everything that he possibly could do to hang on to that power, which is a very dangerous thing. And so it's just a weird dynamic. Well, then on the other side of it, you have David then also was the guy in power at one point, and then Absalom was the one wanting the power. And. And it's like a tale of these three characters and how they all interact and how David kind of when he was in power, he wasn't hoarding it, and when he wasn't in power, he wasn't coveting it. And I think what you're seeing with Saul is you're seeing on this side of it. We'll get to the other part later with the power that comes after David. But what you're seeing here is an obsession and a demonic possession that accompanies those who would seek to contain the power that they've been given at all costs. And I thought that was just interesting that you see that at the very beginning of Saul's reign.

[Lou]

Yeah, because I've heard at least, because when I read it, when I read of him hiding behind the armor bearer or behind the armor, I view that maybe more so as like a humility of like, I don't want to be king. But other commentaries talk about that as just like. Like the cowardness kind of that he displayed at the beginning.

[Alan]

Zach, tell folks how to bring us home. We're done.

[Zach]

Yep. You guys could go check this [e-mail] Sign up for the course. It's absolutely free. We're doing the story of David right now. Join with us. We want you to do it. If you are just tuning in, you can start at the beginning of the course. We're only in the the. The third lecture here, so appreciate you guys being here. See you next week. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.