Ep 1225 | Jase Responds a Gut-Wrenching Porn Confession & Facing the Consequences of Our Sins

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: Ep 1225 | Jase Responds a Gut-Wrenching Porn Confession & Facing the Consequences of Our Sins
Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Jase, Al, Zach
Theme: Responding to Confession, Forgiveness, Biblical Guidance for Sin, and Understanding Restoration

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Episode Overview

This episode opens with the Robertson family addressing a vulnerable email from a listener who confessed his long-standing struggle with pornography to his wife, inspired by a previous episode. The hosts share their biblical perspective on confession, forgiveness, and the real-world consequences of personal sin, interweaving personal anecdotes, scriptural wisdom, and practical advice for both strugglers and those hurt by betrayal. The conversation evolves into a thoughtful Bible study on the themes of forgiveness and life after death, delving into what Scripture teaches about paradise, the new creation, and the spiritual dynamics of confession within relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Responding to Confession and Betrayal

[03:27–12:14]

• Reader Email Read by Zach [03:27]
  • Listener shares his lifelong struggle with pornography, recent confession to his wife, her devastated reaction, and a request for advice.
• Al’s Immediate Response [05:45]
  • “First of all, you did the right thing by telling the truth, because division, deceit causes division. That later on leads to the separation stuff. So the idea somehow that it is better if we don’t know things is never a good idea, especially in a marriage." [05:44]
  • Transparency and openness are emphasized as crucial for rebuilding trust after betrayal.
• Jase’s Reinforcement [06:56]
  • “It’s a betrayal to her. And the fact you didn’t say it before has made it worse.”
• Practical Steps:
  • Complete transparency (sharing access to devices/accounts).
  • Confidence through accountability and ongoing transparency.
  • Recognition that forgiveness is a process, not a quick fix.

Notable Quote

• Zach on Intimacy and the Gospel [10:08]:
  • “True intimacy is when your spouse sees you in your worst state and says, ‘I’m still present. Not that I affirm you, not that I’m saying what you did is good, but I’m still present.’ That’s the gospel, by the way. While we were enemies, Christ died for us.”

The Consequences of Sin and the Reality of Reconciliation

[12:04–15:30]

• Sometimes confession leads to separation or loss (“there are a few cases where sins are confessed and they do leave. But I think you got to remember it probably wasn’t going to work anyway” – Jase [12:04]).
• Forgiveness from God is always available, but human relationships may bear lasting scars from broken trust.
• Faithful Response: Seek accountability, healing, and guidance from God and others, trusting in Christ’s sufficiency even if outcomes differ from hopes.

Biblical Exploration: Forgiveness, Accountability, and Restoration

[26:29–31:59]

• John 20:22–23 & The Power to Forgive
  • Discussion on Jesus breathing on the disciples and the complexity of the statement, “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
  • Importance of church discipline, confession, and real accountability.
  • Al’s Reflection [29:02]: “How did you forgive her? ... I have the Holy Spirit living in me. That gives me the capacity to forgive someone who has hurt me in the worst possible ways.”
• Conditional Forgiveness: True reconciliation requires genuine repentance and the willingness to change. If the offending party is unwilling to turn from destructive behavior, practical forgiveness and restoration remain limited.

Life After Death, Paradise, and Resurrection

[31:59–57:30]

• What Happens When We Die?
  • Exploring scriptural references to paradise (garden imagery), soul sleep, and the intermediate state after death.
  • Jesus’ word to the thief on the cross (“today you will be with me in paradise” — Luke 23:43) is discussed as a promise of presence with God, not merely a restful unconsciousness.
• Paradise as Presence with God:
  • Jase suggests, “What if paradise is a person? And it is. It’s a divine being.”
  • Paul’s account of being “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Cor 12) is discussed; ultimately, the afterlife is about being “at home with the Lord.”
• Resurrection Hope:
  • Scriptural affirmation that believers await bodily resurrection, new creation, and continued life in God’s presence (Romans 8, 1John 3, Philippians 3, Ephesians 2:6).
• The Mystery of Dimensions [51:53]:
  • Discussion on the limits of human language regarding eternity, other dimensions, and how God transcends time and space.
  • Zach remarks, “...to come back into this dimension and try to explain that dimension is impossible because we don’t have the context for that. The words don’t exist. They escape us.” [52:08]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------| | 05:44 | “First of all, you did the right thing by telling the truth, because division, deceit causes division...” | Al | | 06:56 | “It’s a betrayal to her. And the fact you didn’t say it before has made it worse.” | Jase | | 10:08 | “True intimacy is when your spouse sees you in your worst state and says, ‘I’m still present...’ That’s the gospel.” | Zach | | 14:40 | “Your job and your role is not to manufacture the outcome of anything. I mean, that’s not really our role.” | Zach | | 29:02 | “How did you forgive her? ... I have the Holy Spirit living in me. That gives me an advantage I wouldn't have without it.” | Al | | 52:08 | “…try to talk about what’s beyond space without using a spatial term… You can't… The words don’t exist. They escape us.” | Zach | | 56:34 | “What if paradise is a person? And it is. It’s a divine being, like we talk about heaven…” | Jase |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:27–12:14] – Reading and discussing listener confession, advice for betrayal and forgiveness
• [12:04–15:30] – Consequences of sin, reality of trust and restoration
• [26:29–31:59] – The church, confession, accountability, forgiveness, and tough love
• [31:59–41:17] – Bible teaching: Jesus’ death, what happens after death, and “paradise”
• [44:19–57:30] – The garden imagery, new creation, dimensions and presence with God, the resurrection hope

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Language and Tone

• Honest and vulnerable, sometimes raw, but consistently rooted in hope and faith.
• Down-to-earth country humor and warmth, with biblical references woven throughout.
• Empathetic to listeners’ struggles, non-judgmental, encouraging reliance on God’s grace.

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Takeaways

• Confession is hard, but necessary: True intimacy and healing in relationships cannot happen without bringing hidden struggles into the light.
• Forgiveness is costly but central: With God’s help, even deep wounds can be healed, but it takes honesty, transparency, time, and genuine repentance.
• God restores and redeems: Every failure is met with an invitation to God’s forgiveness and the hope of new creation—in this life and the next.
• Paradise is about God’s Presence: Eternal life is a relationship, not just a place—a return to fellowship with God, begun now and fulfilled in the resurrection.

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For more scriptural deep-dives and real talk about faith and family, subscribe to the Unashamed podcast.

Transcript

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[Jace]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Al]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We're still here together, Jace.

[Jace]

I know. I mean, we did our last podcast, which was basically about Yalls sermons because y' all both preached yesterday and it.

[Al]

Still kind of lingers in the mind, you know, as you go forward.

[Jace]

It does. And there's so much going on now. I mean, we've entered duck season, so my whole world changed. Usually I'm going every day, but I only went opening day with y'. All.

[Al]

And today you would have been cold because this is a classic. It's only. It's like 52 degrees, but it is just when you walk outside, it's wet because it's got a drizzle. It is a Louisiana coast act. You remember that when it's like, oh yeah, it's fine 40s or 50, but it's so cold in your bones.

[Zach]

It's different. It's different. I'm. I was colder in Louisiana that I am in North Carolina.

[Al]

And you're like 20 degrees colder in the winter most times.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

But you have a secret weapon. You have the abundable snowman.

That he's.

[Al]

Actually worn on this podcast.

[Jace]

Yeah, it looks bulletproof. He looks like Iron Man. It's a cross between the Michelin Man, Iron man and Snowpuff or whoever it is, the marshmallow.

[Zach]

Well, let me tell you something. And they're not. And they're not a sponsor, so. But I'm going to tell you though, if you want a warm jacket that Arteryx.

[Al]

Oh, here we go.

[Jace]

Waste an opportunity to bring up an ad. But let me tell you, this.

[Al]

Will be.

[Zach]

I'm just saying that. That I bought that jacket about four years ago and I will Tell you, I've never been cold wearing it in any situation. Never been cold.

[Al]

Well, I want to go on record today as saying if they become a sponsor, I want me to get the jacket, because Zach already has.

[Jace]

So, Zach, I hope you get so cold one day that you have to set that jacket a blaze just to warm yourself in the moment.

[Zach]

Oh, I got this thing. I got this thing in here on 79 degrees. Mark in the back, he. He likes it cold, and so he hates it, But, I mean, he's back there just sweating, like. I mean, he can't stand.

[Jace]

Well, if I ever visit you, I'm gonna be with Mark, so.

[Zach]

You'll be with Mark.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Mark, you got a. You got a fan up here. He's gonna join you back in the back. Well, I wanted to read something because we got a. We did get an email, and that really, we. I don't read all the emails, but we get it because we get a lot of emails and messages, but I try to really read through the ones I can. And I wanted to read one to y' all because I wanted us to address something that we talked about on the podcast.

[Al]

I guess it was episode 1197.

[Zach]

1197. We did a. I think a really important podcast on pornography, and we kind of shared our own experiences with that. You need to go back and listen to that if you haven't yet. And this is actually something that. Sponsored by Covenant Eyes. It's something that, for me, like, this is something that I think is an issue, maybe one of the most dominant issues that we face in our culture. And I knew that episode was going to hit people hard, and I knew that it was convicting. I felt the Holy Spirit move as we were talking. And so we got an email. I don't know the gentleman's name. I wouldn't say it, obviously, even if I did have his name, but it made it way to me, and I want to read his email because it took me back to a moment when I actually confessed some things to Jill and how he worked through that. Al, I know you guys have gone through a lot of issues in your marriage as well, so I wanted to read it and then get you guys to respond. I got some thoughts, too. But this particular gentleman said. He said, I recently watched your episode on porn use. I've struggled with this since I was a child, and now I'm 35, thankfully, with much prayer. I have several months of sobriety and considered never telling her, his wife, about it. However, I continued to have an overwhelming conviction and Guilt that I hid this from my wife. So I decided to tell my wife after watching the episode, and she was devastated. She told me tonight that she almost wishes that I would never have even told her. I'm scared our marriage may not make it through this. And I'm wondering how Zach and Jill made it through the first days after confession. I'm desperate for her forgiveness, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Any tips on what I can do in the early days of my confession? And I want to hear really from you, Al, too, because I think you have a book called. Don't you have a book called Desperate for. What was it called?

[Al]

Desperate for Forgiveness? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, we deal with this one head on.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

For me, my advice would be to answer directly the question one is, even though she responded that way, which is understandable, this is new news for her, because obviously it sounds like she had no idea. But when you look back at Genesis 3 in the Garden and you see when the first sin comes in, you notice what you see is once that deceit now has brought to light, you start seeing the responses to it. You see this idea of shame, fear. Remember, they didn't want to be first. They want to be a part. They didn't want God to know, and they're hiding, and they realized they were naked. And. And then this division begins to happen, and then it just cascades down the line. So first of all, you did the right thing by telling the truth, because division, deceit causes division. That later on leads to the separation stuff. So the idea somehow that is better if we don't know things is never a good idea, especially in a marriage.

[Jace]

Well, since the op. The Bible says the exact opposite.

[Al]

Exact opposite. Right. Truth is. Always shines like. So first of all, you did the right thing. But understand, from her perspective, this is new news. So, yes, it's devastating. And it does feel like I wish I did well.

[Jace]

And it's a betrayal to her.

[Al]

Exactly.

[Jace]

And the fact you didn't say it before has made it worse.

[Al]

It's made it worse because the longer you live the lie, the more the harder it is then because they feel like you've been living a lie the whole time. But here's my advice to you now that you told the truth, and this is to anybody out there, and you're wondering whether I should do this. Now you know the truth. Your role as the one who did this is to be completely transparent. In other words, my wife has access to anything I have access to. You don't you now, what you want to do is keep the evil one from bringing in future division. So your life now is an open book. It should be that way anyway. But obviously, you've had this secret thing going on. That's one thing. Because that gives her confidence. You're not hiding. You're not on the phone. You're not off somewhere by yourself. You're not awake when she's asleep doing things you shouldn't be doing. So transparency. And then the other thing is you have to relay confidence to her. Because I'm speaking to this from the perspective of my wife, who it wasn't pornography. It was an affair, which some people would say is worse, but it's not any worse. It's just another sin. But my idea was I had to have transparency from her. I needed confidence to know that she was wanting to change this about herself and that we were going to go forward and then grow into different people. So that would be the two things I would say. And then the other thing is when she understands that when she forgives you, she's doing exactly what God does, then she'll have that idea of what she needs to do going forward. And it won't be that. I just won't know. It's that, how can I help my husband be better? So, you know, look, our books are out there. I'm not saying this to sell a book. I'm saying this to help you. I wrote, we wrote A New Season of Desperate Forgiveness as a way to put in people's hands to help them with this very issue. So if you can find the book online, find one. If not, send an email and I'll try to get you one.

[Zach]

Well, I'll say this, too. When you think about the gospel and what we've been really talking about on this podcast from the very beginning, the gospel, it does go back to Genesis, chapter one, two, and three. And when Adam and Eve sin for the very first time and they hide, which is what you were doing, you hide, which is what I was doing. We hide. We don't want to be seen. We cover up with fig leaves. The idea is the anxiety that you feel and experience in that division that Al talked about, you feel that because you're like, man, if they actually break through this covering, this artificial covering that I've made, they break through these fig leaves. They're going to see my nakedness, they're going to see my problems, they're going to see all my issues. And so what happens in relationships is that creates an unsustainable anxiety. And the anxiety is it's the fear of being known and exposed. And so when God shows up in Genesis 3, he doesn't look at Adam and Eve and say, oh, you guys aren't bad. They're not that bad. Don't worry about it. He actually recognizes their depravity. He says, you're much worse than you think you are. But that cover is not going to be durable. So he makes a suitable covering for them. And that's the first time that you actually get the shedding of blood in the Bible. And he makes that more durable skin. And that's a foreshadowing of Christ who will cover our sin. And why this matters is because if you're in a state in your marriage where you're having to hide even your past, then you're not really known and you're not going to really achieve true intimacy. Here's true intimacy. True intimacy is when your spouse sees you in your worst state and says, I'm still present. Not that I affirm you, not that I'm saying what you did is good, but I'm still present. I see you there and I'm not leaving. That's the gospel. By the way. While we were enemies, Christ died for us. While we were hostile towards Him, Christ died for us. So it's to be seen in that state. So you did make the right move. And I know it's painful to go through. I've been through something very similar in my marriage. And over time that gets better. If she's a spirit filled woman, she's going to lean into the move of the Holy Spirit.

And for me and Jill, that was. I didn't snap my fingers and then everything was healed. I mean, it took time, but now we're on the other side of that many, many years later. And I can tell you that being known in that way is so sweet, it's so real, it's so tang. And that's what God has for you. So I would hang on to the vision and that picture of where God's going to take you and I would just say accountability. As Al said, accountability matters. And that's why we don't want you guys out there that are struggling with this. I mean, I know that was kind of a hard episode that we did, but we don't want you to think that you're alone. And it's why we push people to things like Covenant Eyes. Victory by covenant Eyes. I think they actually have something for women now as well.

[Al]

It's called Arise for women, which is a 21 day video program. And then you have Frontline 21 which is some strategies for men. So they really have a lot of great stuff. It's Covenant Eyes.com Unashamed and you can get the Victory software free for 30 days if you visit them now. So it's Covenant Eyes.com Ashamed.

[Jace]

Well, I will say now there are a few cases where sins are confessed and they do leave. But I think you got to remember it probably wasn't going to work anyway, which is no consolation prize. But because it does happen. I remember a guy who confessed his sins one night which you know, he was breaking the law and spent 10 years in prison. But I'm like, you can be free in God's eyes even because that doesn't change the fact of what you did. And there are consequences to it.

[Zach]

So I got a new favorite gift for folks for Christmas this year. It's called Aura Frames. It really is the hidden gem because what you get with this, it's a frame that you get unlimited free photos and videos that you can upload from your phone from anywhere in the world. So you can give it to one of your grandparents or a parent. You just download the OR app and you connect it to the WI fi and you can preload it before you even send it out before it ships. And you can keep adding more photos from anywhere in the world. Jase, I believe you said Missy has given a few of these away to some of your family members.

[Jace]

She has and it's a way because our family's scattered across the nation, it's a way to make it easy for the grandparents to keep up with what's going on.

[Zach]

Well, I hope my kids grandparents aren't listening because that's going to be what they're getting for Christmas this year. I got two in the mail right now on the way. For a limited time you can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com and get $35 off or as best selling Carver mat frames named number one by wirecutter by using promo code unashamed at checkout. That's A are a frames.com promo code unashamed. It is the perfect gift this year for Christmas. This deal is exclusive to our listeners and frames will sell out fast. So order yours today and get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jace]

So it may not in all cases work out the way you wanted with people. But all through the Bible the theme is especially in the old Testament. God kept saying, if you'll just turn to me, confess your sins, turn to me, come to me. That's all he wants as far as to offer his forgiveness and grace. And it also helps you be able to be held accountable, like y' all said. But I just wanted to throw that in.

[Zach]

That's a good point, Jace. I think that I was thinking the same thing. I'm glad you articulated that, because your job and your role is not to manufacture the outcome of anything. I mean, that's not really our role.

[Jace]

It's out of your control, and you did it, and there are consequences, and it happens, and sometimes it doesn't end well. But you now, if it does work out, you have a helper. I mean, that's the way the marriage was described. And your relationship will be deeper because it will be united in the grace of Jesus. I mean, blood on the cross. I mean, I had to do that with our dad. I mean, I look back at the things he did. But when I came to Christ, I was like, well, what am I going to do about this? And I thought, well, how am I going to appeal to the blood of Jesus and not offer it? So it's a decision that you.

[Al]

And you got to keep in mind, too. The old evil one, he's conniving. He knows because in this case, the young man mentions that this began very early in his life. And in Lisa's case, there were some things that happened to her early in life that then set some things in motion that she was going to have to deal with the rest of her life. And so I come along in the process, not knowing these things, but then have to live with the results of some of these things. But the idea is that we went in all in to try to make it work. And we have made it work. And for the last 25 years, it's been amazing. And the difference was, is because we finally both fell in love with Jesus completely and have the Holy Spirit living us. It can be amazingly dynamic. And Zach can say the same thing in your relationship.

[Jace]

So tomorrow I'm excited because I'm taking a member of the national championship baseball team.

[Al]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about this.

[Jace]

Megan, he's coming in tonight at some point. And I had a deer back strap that I was going to cook for him. First deer of the year. But my family came in. Missy. Yeah, Missy came in from Nashville. There was nothing to eat. And I'm taking Ethan Fry. And I'm like, sorry, Ethan, but the family has spoken.

[Al]

And we, Ethan, Fry is a big old boy, too. He probably could have done some serious damage on that back. We're going.

[Jace]

We're going. Pork chops with.

[Zach]

Nothing wrong with a pork chop.

[Jace]

MLK recipe.

[Al]

Never go wrong.

[Jace]

That I've moved way up in the batting order.

[Al]

Look there.

[Jace]

Look what she does. She takes the pork chops, she browns them real quick in peanut oil, just like flesh, then puts them in a crock pot with mushrooms and onions.

[Al]

Lisa does the same thing. We use cast iron in the oven, but it's the same.

[Jace]

Same concept. And so she'll. She'll have.

[Al]

They get super tender like that because you're slow roasting them, but you gotta flash them to get that little. They got that little char on them to begin with.

[Zach]

You gotta have that caramelization.

[Jace]

She'll have the side dishes. She'll probably do a homemade macaroni and cheese and some. Some kind of bread. And we. We got this olive oil she gets from Spain, who now has some kind of distributor in America. She's been on a.

[Al]

So is he coming in tonight?

[Jace]

Yeah, he's coming.

[Al]

I want to come meet him.

[Jace]

Well, I'll send you a drink.

[Zach]

And now I want some pork chops, too.

[Al]

Well, I can't do the pork chops because, you know, I'm trying to, like, at some point, getting close to my meat. I know. I know. It does fit my diet, but I' being super sent. I'm very close to my goal.

[Jace]

That's more for us.

[Al]

Yeah. But anyway, I want to take away food from Ethan Fry. He earned it with that national championship.

[Jace]

So that'll be fun. We met his mom in Omaha at the. At the game.

[Al]

Oh, that's. That's right.

[Jace]

They were coming. But then he went pro, and it just. We got sidetracked. So then he's. I think he's going on a hunting trip. He's like, hey, hey, buddy. How about I just stop in and hunt? Which I didn't tell him we didn't have any ducks, but. So we hadn't hunted the last two days. Because I'm hoping this little front may move some ducks, but if not, it'll be good. But I thought it's so interesting because there's. Because I'm gonna see if I can get any inside information on, you know, anything lsu. Because, look, what's so funny is I meet so many people from different states. They think I know who the next LSU coach is going to be. They're like, okay, who. Who. Who they hiring? I'm like, how would I know?

I'm duck hunting.

[Al]

We're getting our intel from Zach, who's giving us stuff he heard in San Diego.

[Jace]

And so it's so amazing. My whole family was talking about that last night. They kept asking me. I was like, hey, I don't know, you know? And my son was like, the Vegas odds say it's Nick Saban. I'm like, it's not Nick Saban. They're like, Vegas. Have you seen it? They're not built on not being right.

[Al]

I was like, sometimes they miss it.

[Jace]

And you know what my reasoning was? I said, and this is what I've been telling people. I'm like, saban's not coming there. They named a stadium after him in Alabama.

He's not going to come here. Go play at Alabama. At Saban Field.

[Al]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jace]

And so I pointed out yesterday, which they all laughed. I said, and if that happens, that letter guy at the Alabama field, at Saban Field, all they got to do is change one letter and they'll probably do it. They're going to take you to a T, and they're going to make it a T, and they're going to call it Satan Failed for When He Comes in, which may or may not happen, but that's not going to happen. So I don't know.

[Al]

Well, it is kind of ironic. Zach, we haven't talked about this since Jason brought it up, that your university, the one you pull for and the one we pull for, are competing for the same guy who's at another place. So we haven't even talked about that much.

[Jace]

Yeah. Lane Kiffin, who, from what I've gathered, is one of the more unpredictable humans.

[Al]

On the planet, has been so far. Of course, by the time this comes out, this will all already happen, so.

[Jace]

Yeah, well. So, Al. So we think. I kind of like being on record.

[Zach]

I mean, he's a. He's a genius. I mean, the price just keeps getting. I mean, it's just. It goes up.

[Al]

He's.

[Zach]

I got a different. I got a different take on it now, though. College football.

[Jace]

All right, here we go. You have the floor. Tell us.

[Zach]

My take on it is because the last figure I saw was $90 million. If there's no limit to. On what you can pay players, just go buy the team at this point, if you want. If you're going to spend 90 million, spend it on players. You get the best of the best. You get some average coach, but you got. You just get.

[Jace]

And you'll coach for free.

[Zach]

I'll do it. I'll do it for way less than 90 million.

[Al]

Just a few million would do him.

[Jace]

If you spent the 90 million on players, then you can just go get well.

[Al]

And even our governor weighed in, which is kind of funny now because he's like, why are we doing. Because they. We just had a. We're having. Having a huge deal with paying off the last coach, like $50 million. And so it's like we're a public university. What are we doing? This is insane. And it is insane about our stay.

[Jace]

Out of the football.

[Al]

Exactly. Which is what I thought. Stick to politics. I like Jefferson. Stick to politics.

[Jace]

But it's been fun. I mean, when my daughter Mia came because I hadn't seen my kids, seems like all in one place. Look, when she came into my house and I was just there. Nobody else was there at this point. It was like somebody pushed a button. And she just started talking about modern tv, up to date shows that I've never. There was one show that she started with Dancing with Stars. Dancing with the Stars.

[Al]

Dancing with. Yeah, with the stars. And she said, the reason we know about it is because Sadie was on it. That's let's face it.

[Jace]

And look, she went on for 30 minutes. I said nothing because I had no idea there was nothing. Everything she was saying, I knew nothing.

[Al]

Were you at least acting interested? I mean, like I was kind of.

[Jace]

Deer in the headlights because, I mean, she started talking about Dancing with Stars. You remember the Crocodile Hunter that got killed? I was like, yeah, what's that gotta do with dancing stars? It's like, you know, his wife won it 10 years now his son is on the show isn't between him and skin the mother.

[Al]

She's a fan of this show?

[Jace]

Yeah, she's a fan. I was like, I didn't think you watched tv. And she's like, oh, no, but right now I do. And. And she's like, you know, Sadie was on there last week. I was like, our. My niece Sadie.

[Al]

And because she had a reunion show.

[Jace]

Yeah, they had a reunion.

[Al]

I did almost. Almost go find it when I heard that. But I didn't. I should have, I guess.

[Jace]

And what happened? The more she talked, the further I got behind. So when she got to the second show, I couldn't catch up. Yeah. And I just thought this, this is. This is the problem in communication in our world, because I think she misses me. And she hadn't seen me and I hadn't seen her. So she wanted to talk. But what she's talking about.

[Al]

So after this, I was just hoping you didn't do her like you do me and Zach on the podcast where you were, like, looking in your Bible the whole time.

[Jace]

I was staring at her dumbfounded. And then finally she said, what do you think? And I said, you want to go fishing? And she said, yes, that's why I'm here. Let's go. And we actually went fishing for two hours because they weren't biting at night over in Willy's Pond. And me and Willie have worked out an arrangement of if I'll take care. He's got a rat infestation, all kinds, but they're burring holes and they're destroying his property. And he's tried to do something about it. So. And so I was. Now I can come and go as I please, catch fish.

[Al]

You've got full invitation.

[Zach]

It's called just kill the rats.

[Jace]

Yeah, the taxes of the fish are. I've got to do something. Well, we call it Zach, because, you know, we're in. We're surrounded by yuppies, even we're married to them. And so we call it a relocation of the rats.

[Al]

So I got a really nice note from Dr. Ashley Lucas, who is the founder of PhD Weight Loss. @ Thanksgiving, I was like, man, things are so different for me, Zach, from last Thanksgiving to this, because I was in the throes of trying to lose some weight that I desperately needed to lose, but failing miserably at doing it. And this year has been a transformation. This last year, from January till now, I've lost right at 80 pounds. I've been able to cut my meds almost completely out. I don't have a CPAP machine anymore. I'm in much better shape. If you're looking at a picture of me, this is at the beginning. This is now where I'm at. So obviously looking better, feeling better, and you can, too. For December only, they're adding two free weeks to your program just to help you get started now, because you got to get it going. Mention the code two weeks and they'll waive your consultation fee and even cover the cost of your food. Food. Call PhD Weight Loss today and breeze into 2026 already working towards your goals. The number is 864-644-1900. Or you can visit myphdweightloss.com that's 864-644-1900. Mention the code two weeks. Or you can go to their website, myphdweightloss.com if I can do it. So can you be sure to tell them you heard about it from the Unashamed podcast and get started. Today.

My grandsons are fishing, but they do. They're strictly catch and release, which was my idea because, you know, we don't. They don't know how to clean and do fish, but they need to learn how to fish. And so they've been going over.

[Zach]

Fishing.

[Jace]

Yeah. Why catch and release too? In the grease. In the spirit of rhyme, catch a.

[Al]

Release. As long as it's in the grease. That's pretty.

[Jace]

Good. Well, don't you think that we're in John 19:20, and I guess we're at the burial of Jesus in our study. But when he gets to John 20 and after he's raised and he appears to his disciples, he has this moment which seems to stand out in my mind as far as the new creation is represented, because he breathes on them in verse 22 and said, receive the Holy Spirit. It's like a picture now of since the resurrection has taken place, there's a new creation where sin and death has been handled and you can have God's presence in you. But then in verse 23, which a lot of scholars and commentators, they don't know what to make of this statement. But I think it's what we just got through talking about, because now you have the Holy Spirit.

He told them, go into all the world. The other Matthew's account and Mark's account, all authority has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Well, in that process, you're having to make all these decisions about people's lives. And what about this? Well, I did this. In this case, we're talking about pornography or betrayal or adultery. But he says, if you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Which is a hard kind of statement to wrap your head around because you're like, well, he's given them.

[Al]

That. And the context is the Holy.

[Jace]

Spirit. Context is the Holy Spirit. And you're having these decisions where even in the church there are people, you know, was that First Corinthians 5 comes to mind when it's like, expel the guy who was sleeping with his stepmom. His stepmom. And so you're making these decisions through the Spirit as a group, with leadership involved, all of that. But this is what the new creation looks like. That's a great point, but it's still a matter of following that grid of how many verses are about. Confess your sins one to another, and you will be healed. The one in James 5. Confess your sins and you'll be healed. Well, the healing comes from God, and hopefully that spreads throughout your.

[Al]

Relationship. Which is interesting you brought that up. Because the number one question I get, when we speak someplace in the marriage context, someone will come up. They would have gone through some infidelity, and they'll say, well, Brother Allen or Mr. Allen.

How did you forgive her? Because they're going through it, and they just are having a hard time stepping over that thing. And I always say the same thing. I said, well, one is, I have the Holy Spirit living in me. That gives me an advantage I wouldn't have without it. I would have the capacity which to this passage. And the second thing is, all I gotta do is look in the mirror and say, you know what? God forgave.

[Jace]

Me.

[Al]

Yeah. And so if he forgave me and I can embrace that, and I believe it, then I have the capacity to forgive someone who has hurt me in the worst possible ways. You can be hurt because I did the same thing to the Almighty. So the only way this works is if we had this divine connection. And I always tell them, without that, you. You almost have no chance. I mean, that's why relations. Divorce is so high, you.

[Jace]

Know. Well, in this context of that verse, I think he. This is. Look, I could be wrong, but I think he's saying, let's say you run upon a situation which I, you know, I've had several of, where, like, somebody's cheating on their wife and they find themselves to my couch and my wife and I are talking to.

[Al]

Them.

[Jace]

Yep. Well, if this guy's like. Like, I'm not leaving this woman that he's having an affair with, well, I'm like, well, that's not doable, you know, in this situation. So it's not that I'm not forgiving him. It's like he's taking the cross and saying, well, I know the standard.

[Al]

By which I should be living. I literally had this conversation a few months ago. A young man called me. He's going through some problems. I said, what happened? And he tells me. And so my first question is, I said, well, have you left this? Are you not seeing this woman anymore? And he said, no, I'm still seeing. I said, well, then I can't help you beyond this point because, like, until that stops, we can't even forget about trying to make your marriage work. We can't even get to any place of.

[Jace]

Healing. Well, that's why I said, this verse is tricky because if you Read it. You're like, oh, and I do think some pastors take this as, like, their special representatives of God above everybody else. And they're just doing whatever saying, man, God got a different thing going. But I think it's in the spirit and dealing with relationships. You're offering God's grace, but people are going to reject it at.

[Al]

Times.

[Jace]

Absolutely. And you're like, but you have to draw a line in the sand and just say, this is not acceptable. We love you. And his forgiveness will always be there if you'll turn to him. So I think that's the point of that, Which I know we were going to get to that later, but I thought that would be a good context to bring it up. But we actually left off the last time we were in John, which has been a minute, is at the burial. And we were talking, not the last podcast, but the one before, about what happens when you.

[Al]

Die. Yeah. And one thing, I get a ton of questions about it. So we've been dealing with some of those. Where did Jesus go? We talked about cremation and where do we go? Where do we.

[Jace]

Go? Where's my dad right now? Which, like, yesterday you did an illustration in your sermon, kind of gave this Phil's picture of heaven. But we all realize he doesn't have his body.

[Al]

Back. And dad, it's funny because he would always say that, but then he was always a firm believer in what many people call soul sleep, which we didn't get into this last time, where, you know, he. He imagined it, where you just go. He kept comparing it, remember, to a surgery. The first time he had surgery, he said, you know, I just. I closed my eyes, he said, and then I opened them and they had operated on me, but I never even knew anything happened. And all this. This time went by, he compared it to that. And so he always believed that. That you just kind of like.

[Zach]

It'S a state of consciousness, but it's. But time.

[Jace]

Is.

[Al]

Is.

[Zach]

Yeah. You don't experience it in the way.

[Al]

Yeah. So he always thought that. So you're. You're right, Jess. We kind of. Or we'll talk about people meeting in heaven or how many pictures have we seen of dad with somebody else who's died standing around a barbecue pit? You know, this AI. But the idea is that's just kind of things, I think, to help us to imagine. But what it is actually like, to be honest, I have no idea. I mean, I don't know if it's soul sleep. I don't know if there's an awareness. You don't have a body. I know.

[Jace]

That.

[Al]

Right. Until you're resurrected, you.

[Jace]

Don'T. But. So the Bible, I think I did bring this up, mentions this word paradise. So think in Luke 23, because it's not in John's version, but I think it's Luke 23 with the thief on the cross. Now, the other thief was.

Basically mocking him. And you brought that up yesterday. And. But the. But the one that Jesus had.

[Al]

The conversation with, it's 2343 is where.

[Jace]

He says, you want to read.

[Al]

It? Yeah. It says, well, the thief said, jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Because the other thief was mocking Jesus. And he rebukes the other guy. He's like, we were wrong. This guy hadn't done anything wrong. Which was interesting. He knew that. And then Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. So that's what he.

[Jace]

Says. Yeah. So he brings up this word paradise, which, if you look up what it means, which is like, enclosed park or garden, and you're like, for that audience.

Where do you immediately go? You go when you say the garden. Cause it's a strange conversation, because if you just remove what you've heard about it before and just think about it, like, you're walking by, here's a guy claiming to be the son of God in the way he acted, and he's having a conversation with a guy who's been up to mischief, and he's like, look, after we die, let's meet in the.

[Al]

Garden.

[Jace]

Yeah. You're like, what?

This is turned into science fiction here. But that's what he said.

[Al]

Yeah. And the other guy is saying what most people would think, well, if you're such a big deal, why don't you just get us out of this thing? You know? That's the other.

[Jace]

Guy. Well, yeah, if you can meet in the garden later, I mean, why.

[Al]

Not get us off of this cross right.

[Jace]

Now? Let me down now, call the celestial beings or whatever. So which takes you back to the garden, which is why I think it actually works, that I brought up that verse about him breathing into the spirit when he breathed into the life of the first man. And on that podcast for last, we talked about what humans are made up of, which is dirt, because that's where man was made. And the woman, a rib, but that rib came from dirt. And this divine breath, which the science world would call energy that turns into heat when you die. We both agree that nothing's leaving. It's still here in some capacity, which the reason I brought that up is because it even makes sense scientifically. But if you were the creator of.

[Zach]

Matter.

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[Jace]

Andrewandtod.Com.

If you're the one doing the breathing and the creating. Well, what's making a new body? What's making that material that's taken a new form? Well, it's nothing. I mean, that's why people get hung up on the miracles as not following God. Because they're like, oh, man, you got a fish eating a guy. I'm sure you can go find an Internet video somewhere where a fish ate something or whatever AI constructed, but it's actually doable if you're the creator, this is not a big.

[Zach]

Deal.

If.

[Jace]

You can pull this off once. And so when he brings up the garden. So the other places that he brings it up off the top of my head is, what's the one in two Corinthians, third Heaven? Yeah, the third heaven. And we did a podcast on this.

[Al]

Before. It's in 12, I.

[Jace]

Think. But I don't mind revisiting it because it is a good.

[Al]

Question. 2 Corinthians.

[Jace]

12. Yeah, 2 Corinthians 12. Now, Paul, he says, I must go on boasting. I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man which, for whatever reason, the scholars believe that he's speaking about.

[Al]

Himself. Yeah. Same way John did several times when he like third personed.

[Jace]

Himself. Because this is so crazy. I think that's why he's doing it. But in.

[Al]

Christ. And have y' all not done that before? I've been in a sermon before and I was like, you know, I know a guy and I'm talking about.

[Jace]

Myself. So in Christ, who was called up to the third heaven? Now, we could go down that rabbit trail with the third heaven. But there's a basic belief, because when heaven is used in the Bible, it's kind.

[Al]

Of. You said it earlier, the idea was you have the sky. In the Hebrew world, they saw the sky. Then they saw like the.

[Jace]

Cosmos. Then you have the.

[Al]

Stars. And the galax would call space. And then you've got where God is. That's the.

[Jace]

Light. But it's not like it's far off. It's a different dimension because it's another realm. Yeah. I think we can leave it there. So he's caught up to the God space. Whether it was in the body or out of the body, I don't know. God knows. And I know that this man. So that phrase I quickly read. But whether it was in the body or out of the body, I don't.

[Al]

Know. He doesn't know literally whether he.

[Jace]

Was transported there or he don't know if his divine breath. Because you have passages like Ephesians 4 that says the Father is. What does it say through all, in all, with all, through all and in all. And the Colossians one, In Christ, all things are held together. We're talking atoms and molecules.

Same thing. Paul's sermon, Acts 17. In him we live, move, and have our being. There's a sustaining energy force that even non believers believe that's out there that we don't know what to do with. You can go study quantum physics and you're going to come up with the same conclusion. What do we do with this heat and energy all around that seemingly is sustaining life in some way? So then he says verse three. And I know that this man, whether in the body or out of the body, or part of the body, I don't know. But God knows, was caught up. Well, look, there's that word.

[Al]

Again. To.

[Jace]

Paradise. To paradise. So when you think back to the thief.

You think, well, is Paradise a person? Because in the first garden, God was. Was there. And I think that's the idea. Because if you take the other three passages that are mentioned about what happens when you die, Paul twice said, you're at home with the Lord or you're here. I forgot the first one there. But there's three of them that talks about that. I think the thief. Yeah, because he said, today you'll be with me in paradise. So then he heard inexpressible things, things that man was not permitted to tell. So God doesn't want us to know about that. And there's very little. I'm just giving you the very few passages that talk about what happens in this intermediate phase. Now, in Jesus case, we left off on the point of you have the first Peter 3, where he seemingly as while he was buried, went and preached to the spirits from the time of Noah, which you gotta remember was when the celestial beings that happened right after this, Genesis 6 and the Nephilim and all this, that these celestial beings rebelled against God. And so, like some people believe in the scholarly world, that these eventually became the demons that he's casting out. Was this celestial beings with the daughters of men in Genesis 6. Now, look, I don't know, but it seems to make sense to me that something there was going on. And then Peter brings that up, first Peter.

[Al]

3. So I don't see was talking about baptism and the flood. But you could also take that passage, by the way, one way to take it is the same spirit that was in Jesus was there present for Noah to preach to those same people that they needed to get on the.

[Jace]

Boat. That's.

[Al]

True. I'm more. That's another way of looking at.

[Jace]

It. Yeah, I'm kind of in the camp of the celestial being, you know, in Jude, where it says these, they're locked up in gloomy dungeons. And second, Peter gets into that.

[Al]

Too. Peter gets into that too. Reserved for.

[Jace]

Judgment. Reserved for judgment. Now, whatever he declared. But for us, it's only these three passages about paradise, which is the garden. And even when you get to the last book in Revelation, where the new heaven and new earth come out of heaven, well, all of a sudden when you get to chapter 22, you have a scene of a garden. It says, the angel showed me the river of the water of life flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb. Down the middle of the great street of the city and on each side of the river, look, there were.

There stood the Tree of Life. Where was that? That was in the garden. And now we're at the end of the story here. And the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city. And his servants, they will see his face. There will be no night. Okay, so if you go back to Revelation 1.

So here's John, who's given instruction in this, which all these kind of occurrences of where heaven and earth overlap. Think the transfiguration. You're seeing some glimpse of the heavenly merge in the earthly. I mean, there's two dead guys. Well, not dead, but Moses died and Elijah, who was just taken up to heaven, have a conversation with Jesus while they're emanating light. And Peter's like, hey, do you.

[Al]

Know? And somehow Peter, James and John recognized them as Moses and Elijah. So obviously it was some physical form at some.

[Jace]

Point. And you have the story in Ezekiel where he sees this vision and kind of like Paul said, I don't know what just happened. Well, the one I'm going to read here, this is John in Revelation 1. It says he was in the Spirit and he has this dream. But just listen to what this says. And he's supposed to give this message to seven churches. And this is a lot like Ezekiel. And I left out the one about Jacob, remember the stairway to heaven, wrestling with God. And he was in this weird state and thought he was asleep. So here's this one that says I had this vision, verse 13. Among the lampstands was someone like a son of man. Well, where's that coming from? It's a direct quote from Daniel 7, talking about the kingdom and Jesus would establish. He's dressed in a robe, reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around the chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow. Eyes were like blazing fire. Feet were like bronze, glowing in the furnace. And his voice was like the sound of rushing winds. In his right hand he had seven stars. His face was like brilliance. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his hand on me and said, do not be afraid. I'm the first and the last. I'm the living one. I was dead. And behold, I am alive forever and ever. But here's where I wanted to set up. I hold the keys of death and.

[Al]

Hades.

I don't know about you fellows, but I've always thought the best thing about the Christmas is seeing the Nativity and realizing that the creator, our king of kings, decided to come here as a.

[Jace]

Baby. I mean, from the womb of a.

[Al]

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[Jace]

Preborn.Comunashamed.

And so we went through that in the Bible. In the Old Testament, sheol is the grave. And in the New Testament, Hades is the grave. So your body goes to the grave. But Jesus holds the key. He's saying, give this message to these seven churches. And the other place where paradise is mentioned is in his message to the first church in Ephesus in verse seven. And I want to read this. It says, he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Well, we're back to this garden. It's the same garden referred to on the thief on the.

[Al]

Cross.

[Jace]

Yeah. And so here's the confusing part when you think about time frame. Well, Jesus told him this is fixing to happen. Now when I read, he's like, today you'll be with me in paradise. Well, when I'm reading this passage, well, this is like post resurrection in Revelation.

[Al]

22. Quite a bit post because there are a lot of Years that have gone.

[Jace]

By. So you're thinking, but in the Paul version, when he got caught up.

[Al]

Third heaven, it already.

[Jace]

Happened. That happened 14 years.

[Al]

Ago.

[Jace]

Yeah. So then you start saying, well.

When is this going to happen? Well, the answer is yes, because God paradise is a person. He's an eternal being. So that is a present reality. That's why we keep saying, once you get God's spirit, you're part of the kingdom now. You're seated in the heavenly realms now. Ephesians 2:6. Well, that carries over now to understand. So where do you go when you die? Where's this energy, this life giving divine bread? Well, it's with where it belongs, in the presence of God, in a different form, while waiting. I think it makes more sense if you read all the verses and you think, oh, I'm in some kind of state. And even when you read this state where he's seeing this in this dream state, that's just his mind trying to comprehend into words something that. That's why Paul says, I can't even. These are inexpressible. He wasn't saying like, oh, it's a secret, I can't tell you. I don't have the words. Which is why you get all this imagery.

[Al]

Here. And when he said in the niv, it says not permitted. Man is not permitted. As if he was somehow being held back from what to say. He had no words to.

[Jace]

Touch. That's the point. And so when you think about.

When you start looking at this in a different dimension, which is what I'm asking you to do, because this is outside of our capability of whatever they say, you know, they define dimension as height, depth, width, and then time. Well, this is all above that. He's eternal. And this is beyond. It's another dimension which also explains.

[Al]

If you had dimensional control, because we talk a lot about molecular control, but if you had dimensional control, think about what you could do. You talking about walking through doors or walking wherever you showing up across time. I mean, dimensional control would allow you to do whatever you wanted to.

[Zach]

Do. Wow. And the problem with the language of talking about other dimensions is that language, if you think about the necessity of language or what's required to have language, you're making meaning. So you have to have reference points to draw meaning out of. So you can do like a little thought experiment and you can try to talk about what's beyond space without using a spatial term like beyond. You can't, you can't. You can't talk about it. Although we know that space has a boundary, because we've learned that from physics. But when you try to think about what's outside of the boundary. Oh, well, they're outside. That's a spatial word. What's beyond beyond? Or the same thing with time. If you try to think about what was before time, well, you're using temporal words. So I think that's what Paul was kind of hitting up against is like he travels to or somehow gets caught up into this other realm, this other dimension, and then to come back into this dimension and try to explain that dimension is impossible because we don't have the context for that. The words don't exist. They escape us. The language isn't possible. And we won't be able to even have that conversation until we're in that.

[Jace]

Dimension. Right. So I want to give you an illustration what you just said. So one of the faiths out there believe that Ephesians 4, 9, 10 is talking about. They interpret this to mean when Jesus died and was buried, you know, he went to hell. And of course they're saying he went to hell for us, but I just think that that's an inaccurate depiction of what happened. I think his ultimate reason was destroying the powers of death and sin itself that keep us separated from him. And look, he took our sins. He was put in our place. I'm agreeing with all that. But when you read the first Peter 2, so that we can die to sins, and this, this new life and new creation can be a present reality with future benefits. As in, when you die, you go to be with the Lord, but you also are going to get your body back, just like he did. That's all over the place in the New Testament. There will be, and he's very specific, Romans 8, your body will be redeemed. First John 3. You will get a body like his. We will be like him. So Philippians 3 is another one, says, our citizenship is in heaven. You made a good point about that yesterday. That's now. But we wait for our Savior to be revealed, but he's coming from heaven. Our bodies will be raised first. Thessalonians 4. We will get a new.

[Al]

Body. And it's interesting because he makes that point. If he has the power to transform you from death to life, he certainly has the power to transform you in this.

[Jace]

Life. Exactly. Well, I wanted to read this, but they get this passage from Ephesians 4, when it says verse 10, he who descended in the very, is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens. And when it says descended, it says verse 9 what does he ascended mean? Except that he also descended to the lower earthly region. So they're saying that most people believe that's talking about the Incarnation. The point I want to make is his prayer, Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3. A part of this prayer captures this dimension thing that we struggle with, because he says, I pray verse 16, that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his spirit, which is where all these people were when they had these visions. And watch, he says, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power together with all the saints. Look to grasp how wide, long, high and deep he goes through the dimensions is the love of Christ. And so. And to know this love that surpasses knowledge, it's a person. That's why the sermon I heard that made me go down this rabbit trail was, what if paradise is a person? And it is. It's a divine being, like we.

[Al]

Talk about having to which.

[Jace]

Later. So in chapter four, I know we're out of time. That's where he says that line, there's one body. We're the body of Christ. That goes back to Revelation 21. You see it coming out of heaven because that is our citizenship. All those dead people and witnesses. And it's like you were called to one hope when you were called one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, the Father of all, who is over all, through all, and in all. There's four alls. God and Father of all, over all, through all, and in all. So when you die in Christ, you're good and you got a new body coming. And if you're not, you will experience hell, which is just simply meaning you're separated from this divine reality that is.

[Al]

Eternal. The love of Christ is so strong, it covers any dimension which is very, very.

[Jace]

Powerful. Which is why he died, was buried and raised, and we get to repeat his process. I love.

[Al]

It. All right, we're out of time. We'll. We'll pick it up here next time on the Shame. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode. So.