← Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Ep 1228 | Willie Robertson’s Love of Sibling Rivalry Finds New Life in John Luke & Christian Huff
00:48:59
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- [00:02]
Zach
I am unashamed. What about you? Did you say you anointed your property with oil?
- [00:09]
Michael
Yes, I did. It's a well. Well, Zach, it's a biblical thing, you know, to. To. To anoint things.
- [00:15]
Al
He hadn't gotten to that part yet.
- [00:17]
Michael
Yeah, well, the story of David then, you know, even in Exodus with the. The Passover lamb and, you know, the anointing of that. But, yeah, we. We had had some, you know, kind of crazy things going on in our life, and we were like, let's.
- [00:30]
Al
Let's.
- [00:31]
Michael
Let's do a little prayer walk over our property. And my boundary lines fall right next to John Luke and Al.
- [00:38]
Al
We live on either. This is how we live. This is basically our neighborhood.
- [00:42]
Michael
I ran out of oil right around where both things kind of intersect.
- [00:47]
Zach
Have you guys had trouble?
- [00:49]
Al
We have rabid dogs on our side, and John Luke has bees on his.
- [00:52]
John Luke
Side, bees protecting my property.
- [00:54]
Zach
Have y' all had trouble penetrating his property? Like, is it hard to walk across the barrier? That.
- [00:59]
Al
Well, there's like three Navy SEALs that are over there somewhere, and I don't want to mess with them, so.
- [01:03]
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, there's a force field somewhere.
- [01:05]
Al
Yeah. Now they have a lovely property. And John Luke and Mary Kate do as well.
- [01:10]
John Luke
Well, you know, when you get on Christian's property, though, it's like when you're crossing state line and the roads smooth.
- [01:16]
Al
Out, you go from Mississippi to some. Someplace else.
- [01:20]
Zach
So you're saying his yard's a little more manicured?
- [01:22]
John Luke
His yard is manicured.
- [01:23]
Al
It looks very nice. Christian spends a lot of time out there.
- [01:26]
Michael
I do, yeah. I mow it all the time myself.
- [01:29]
John Luke
Yep.
- [01:30]
Zach
So you do your own yard mowing?
- [01:31]
Michael
No, I don't.
- [01:32]
Zach
I think so.
- [01:33]
John Luke
I did do my yard, and it did. It's. It's got some potholes.
- [01:37]
Michael
You think. Do you think David mowed his own lawn?
- [01:39]
Zach
I think David probably did because he was a humble man. Here's the thing that if you. If you grew up in the Robertson family that I like. I do mow my own yard, but I've gotten a lot of flack. Me. My Uncle Phil used to ride my tail about mowing my own yard. I was like, what's the big deal? He says, like that, like, was like a sign of not being a man to him for some reason.
- [01:58]
Al
Oh. He told us point blank, he said, boys, I meant to use them when. When one of your neighbors comes by and they see your butt, you know, because he had a way of enunciating your butt sticking out of a flower. Bed. You have officially lost your manhood.
- [02:15]
John Luke
That's because he didn't have any grass.
- [02:16]
Al
Exactly. Because he said, the frost will get it every winter. Yeah, I mean, he was like. He didn't even mow it. He was like the frost to get it, you know?
- [02:23]
Zach
Hey, John, like, talking to Michael a bit more. I'm having trouble hearing John.
- [02:26]
John Luke
Yeah, he just had dirt in his yard. It was just all dirt.
- [02:29]
Michael
Dirt and gravel.
- [02:29]
Al
Ye.
- [02:30]
John Luke
Yeah, just gravel.
- [02:31]
Zach
Well, one of my greatest victories in life is that there was a time when I hired your dad, Willie, to work for me as my yard boy.
- [02:40]
Al
Because Willie was in the yards. He was in his young life.
- [02:44]
Zach
He was in manual labor at the time. I said, get out there and clean that crap up. I just told him, get out there and clean it up, son. He was out there working. I just paid him.
- [02:52]
John Luke
Whatever they had in your pocket.
- [02:53]
Al
Well, he just paid it. No, he paid him out of his Dave Ramsey envelope.
- [02:57]
Zach
That was the. No, that was the mistake I made, because then I paid him out of the envelopes, and he starts making fun of me.
- [03:02]
Al
So what is this?
- [03:03]
Zach
Oh, my God. And I made the mistake.
- [03:06]
Al
Your famous lines that.
- [03:07]
Zach
Yeah, I made the mistake. And I have heard this. If I've heard it once, I've heard.
- [03:11]
Al
Every time Willie's on the podcast, he says what Zach's about to say.
- [03:14]
Zach
Yeah, I, I, I say. We were drawing back and forth. I said, I'll tell you what, Willie. You do your thing, and I'll do mine, and we'll see who ends up on top at the end of it all.
- [03:24]
Al
And.
- [03:25]
Zach
And then about three years later, Duck dynasty. Yes. He bought into the duck commander business.
- [03:29]
Al
Every time Willie comes to the podcast, he said, zach, we still trying to see who's gon out on time?
- [03:35]
Zach
Well, the worst was when I got a video from Willie, and he was at Dave Ramsey's house, and he was like, hey, remember that time you were doing that Dave Ramsey thing and you said, you do your thing, I do mine? Well, I'm here with Dave right now.
- [03:52]
Al
He said, we're looking for Dave's envelopes, but we ain't.
- [03:57]
Zach
It was funny.
- [03:58]
John Luke
Yeah.
- [03:59]
Zach
Story of David. We are in the story of David. Speaking of rivalries, Saul had a rivalry with David. So our lecture four, if you're coming along with us, it's unashamedforhillsdale.com and you can sign up, take the course.
- [04:12]
Al
But we're.
- [04:12]
Zach
We're in lecture four, which I. These, These four and five to me, were so good, man.
- [04:19]
Al
They've all Been good. Zach, I wanted to mention something I did, I forgot to mention on our first two we did in this series, and it was A quote from Dr. Arne, because he just does a little small, like a preamble before Dr. Jackson starts. But he. He made a. A comment or a quote that I thought was well worthy, and I think it fits in beautifully where we are today. He said this. This is. These are stories about perfect providence told through. Told through fallen, flawed people. And. And I love that idea because it's. Sometimes we get caught. And we've commented on this, the first two podcasts and really all the way through Genesis and Exodus as well. And we're like, you just. You see these people continue to make these crazy mistakes, and they seem to go on for, in some cases, operationally. And you're. You. After a while, you just begin to think, man, are these people ever going to get it figured out. But that's the whole deal. I mean, when we're dealing with a perfect God, creator of all things, that wants a relationship with us, of course we're going to be fallen, flawed people. And that's the whole beauty of it. And even us, as we sit here, it almost sounds like you're judgmental, like looking back and say, look at these rubes. You know, they couldn't figure anything out. But, I mean, we're the same way, right? I mean, we face something we're unsure of. You know, we get in a situation where we realize we made a huge mistake and we're still fighting those same things these people are fighting with. So I think it's important to start it off with the idea today because we're talking about this rivalry, and, man, you'd think Saul would want all the help he could get. And instead of embracing David, which he does on some points, but instead of embracing David and just saying, okay, obviously God's got this guy in my life for a reason. I mean, even his own family realized it. Instead of doing that, he just goes to every link to sabotage the situation. So I think it just shows how persistent our enemy is, but also how we have to fight our own flaws, you know, in everything we do. So I, I don't. I just wanted to start with that because I just thought that was really pertinent to where we're headed.
- [06:19]
Zach
Give us. Give us an overview, Al.
- [06:21]
John Luke
Of.
- [06:21]
Zach
Of where we're at in. In the story, because you're. I think you're probably the best at kind of just talking about the history where we're at. Maybe.
- [06:28]
Al
Well, we Talked about kind of setting this up. It was an era of the Judges, which was. Is post Canaan. You know, there was a period of time there where the. The land is conquered, everything's divided among the tribes. Then it kind wild, wild west shootout in the Book of Judges. And you have these spiritual leaders that keep that God will rise up and then. But the people keep going back. And so at the tail end of that, you get Eli, who was kind of the last of that crew, really, because Samuel's almost like an outlier, right? Because he doesn't quite fit. And John, like you made the point that he's not really the guy anybody. We thought it was going to be his sons. So he's like the transition guy from this judge, prophet, man of God, who points everybody back to a king, which we established that God says is a bad idea. In fact, I don't think we read it last time or talked about it. But he mentioned this way back in Deuteronomy 17. He was like, this is. You're going to do this, but it's going to be a bad idea. So, I mean, even back in Moses day, they were saying, don't do the king thing. And so. But what happens is he's anointed anyway. And we talked about that. So first Samuel one through four was Eli and his sons. And then you had Hannah and Samuel, and you kind of saw this fruitlessness versus faithfulness. Then we get to 1st Samuel 5 through 12, which is the last podcast we talked about, and that was Samuel now who is the leader. But then his sons kind of create the same problem, and this creates this rise of this young man named Saul, who really never wanted the job. But because he. He looked like Christian and, you know, he was a decent guy that everybody loved. They thought, you know, this is the guy. But he didn't really want it. I think he kind of knew it wasn't for him. But then when he gets it, he seems to start making, as we'll talk about today, every decision, everything he says, this has to be done. He's. He's doing the wrong thing. It's like every time he has a choice between let me do it this way or this way, he seems to always choose the wrong path. I mean, I mean, it kind of marks it. So that kind of sets us up. We're in 1st Samuel 13 through 18 in this segment, and it's called Saul's Rivalry with David. So that's kind of where we are.
- [08:38]
Zach
You guys ever had a go ahead?
- [08:40]
Michael
No, you got it. Where you're saying.
- [08:41]
Zach
No, you go ahead.
- [08:42]
Michael
No, I was just saying I think. I think something cool, and I've even seen it so far throughout Genesis, Exodus, and even so far in this course with David. But I love something that I love about how Dr. Jackson teaches the course is he provides the viewpoints.
- [08:57]
Al
Right.
- [08:58]
Michael
And he always leaves another opinion on the table for you to, you know, if you disagree with him on that. So he'll always, always say, this, this. This is what I think. And he'll have this explanation. Then he'll say, you know, but I'm going to leave it on the table to her if you disagree with me. And I think that's cool because most of the time, most lectures people give or most. Most thoughts that people have, you know, they usually want. They usually want you to think that what they're saying is the correct way. But I think it's cool and refreshing how, you know, he. He gives his opinion, but then he also provides another possible explanation that you can, you know, if you want to explore more into this other way of thinking, he kind of opens the door for that, too, and that he really did that for in four and five.
- [09:35]
Al
Well, he. And you're right, he says it like you just quoted him as saying, in a kind of scholarly way. You know, this is out there on the table. We say it in a redneck way. On the other unashamed podcast, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. But I could be wrong.
- [09:51]
Michael
He usually doesn't follow it with but I doubt it.
- [09:54]
Al
Well, Jay said to that part, her dad did four Js, but yeah, yeah.
- [09:57]
Michael
Yeah, that was funny.
- [09:57]
Zach
Could be wrong, but I doubt it.
- [09:59]
Al
But I doubt it. That's exactly right.
- [10:00]
Zach
Well, I think about this like Saul here, because it is interesting that at first he's so reluctant to assume the role of King, and then later on in the story, he's like, holding onto it with all of his strength, even though he knows that he's going to lose it, because he's already been told that. But he's still like, even with that, he's like, no, I got to hold on to this. And I was wondering what you guys think is the psychology behind what's going on here with Saul. Why all of a sudden does he want to keep it when at the beginning he's like, I don't even know if I want this?
- [10:33]
Al
Well, I'll say one thing, just in a practical sense, because I think you see the same thing today, even though we're in a completely different role of government. And our system that we're in the US because we're still new. 250 years is not very long. But I just remember something Bobby Jindal told me years ago. Bobby was a representative in the House of Representatives for two years, and then that was it. And then he came back to Louisiana, still very young. He was in his 20s at this point, winds up being governor and then later runs for president. And so he became a friend of our family. So I was having a conversation with Bob and I was like, well, why don't you only serve one term in the House? You know, I mean, then you come back and run for governor. It's not like, because he's brilliant, so he could have been in business, made money, whatever. He said, Al, when I got there, he said, I was so wide eyed and just thought, man, what an opportunity. I'm in my 20s and I'm representing the people of Metairie and Louisiana. And he said, but, I mean, I wasn't there hardly anytime. And I started feeling the trappings of power and the way everybody was treating me different and the way that people ushered you into a room with all these ideas. And he said, the way he put it was. He said, I could feel my soul being pulled from my body is the way he put it. And I thought it was interesting. And it's Zach, is that quote about absolute power, you know, and that it corrupts? Yeah, it corrupts absolutely. And so he said, I felt it in two years. If I stayed in D.C. any longer, it might affect me in a negative way. And so I think maybe that's some of what's happening with Saul. Maybe just like anybody else, you're kind of reluctant when you go in, but the minute people start being, yes, sir, no, sir, and you don't say anything wrong and everybody's just running around, you know, doing everything for you, that it's easy to start thinking you're a big deal. And so maybe that was part of it. You know, maybe it's just the trappings of power that, that people. You see across the span of human history that it seems to draw people in. Once they get in power, the last thing they want to do is lose that power. I mean, and there's some people in D.C. now that have been hanging on. They've been in the House of representatives for 50 years.
- [12:37]
John Luke
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Al
You know, and that was supposed to be a. That was all set up by the founders to be a temporary setting where you served, not where you went in and made millions of dollars. So I kind of get it from that perspective and just about the idea of power. And that may not be everything we saw, but I think that certainly has to be some of it. Just as an observation, I could be wrong, but I doubt. I doubt.
- [12:59]
John Luke
I totally thought the same thing about Saul. I feel like he. First, he didn't do anything to deserve being in power as king. He just got chosen from his perspective, totally randomly. Like, he just happened to be there and became king. But then as the time went on, he started to feel like, oh, I think I deserve this. And we kind of talked about this a little bit when the episode ended last time. I feel like Saul, he plays the stereotype every single time. He's, like, reluctant, but then because he's trying to do what his dad did, was told him to do is find the donkeys, they got called in king. Then he. He wants to do what the people want him to do. He wants to be the big guy in charge. He wants to win the wars. Like, he. I think he is legitimately trying to be a good king, and he's got it mixed up in his head that he deserves to be king because of who he is and not because God placed him there.
- [13:55]
Al
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:56]
Michael
And I think it's just fame, too, right? I mean, you see a lot of famous people that kind of get thrust into the spotlight, and then their life just takes a, you know, complete turn, and it ends up being a dumpster fire. And I think if you look at Saul, you know, he's a donkey herder from Benjamin, and you look up and you're the king of Israel and you're beloved by the people, people, you know, worship you. You're loved. You're, you know, your. Your wealth. You're living in this, you know, in this kingdom. And, yeah, I think. I think part of that can blind you. Have. Have you all seen the. The House of David series on Prime?
- [14:28]
Zach
I did see the first couple episodes, yes.
- [14:30]
Al
I had not even heard about t.
- [14:32]
Michael
I very much want to try, but in the. In the show, and I don't know how much of this is creative liberty or if there are hints of this in scripture, I'm not really sure. But you kind of see Saul's wife kind of manipulate some things. At least that's kind of what the show articulates with, whether it's with the necromancer or with certain parts of the kingdom. When Saul has these episodes, his wife sort of kind of distorts some of these things and almost like, because she's hungry for the power, because she loves, you know, the. Just kind of the, you know, the prowess that kind of comes with that. So I don't know if that's, you know, part of it. Obviously there's creative liberties that you can take throughout Scripture. But. But maybe that was part of Saul's demise was that maybe his wife had the, you know, the Jezebel spirit or something. I don't really know.
- [15:18]
Al
And it could have been or. Or some of what happened to a lot of kings, including Solomon later, because of the volume of wives and everything that entails inside of the, you know, trying to have a family and be normal. That. That would be very difficult to do.
- [15:33]
Zach
Ye, because at first he loved David, and I think even the way the story ends, we'll find out later how it ends. But he did love David. I mean, he had a real genuine affection for him because David was brought in initially to soothe kind of his depression or spirit, whatever was going on there with the harp and with his music. And so David's this musician. Then this is something Dr. Jackson brought up too, that just the role of David as musician and warrior. Excuse me. Which is, I think, an important thing to see with David because he enters the scene as the musician. But then what really turns, I think what turns Saul is just straight up jealousy. I mean, we do know that from the scripture, because what was the song that the women sang that David has struck down his. Saul struck down his thousands and then David his 10,000. And so they're seeing this as like celebratory. They're saying, look at how great our king is. And his right hand guy. Saul's hearing this, and it's stirring in him that jealousy, which I think is like. You kind of see this play out like, he didn't want it, he didn't want the kingship. And then all of a sudden, whenever he saw that someone else was going to get it, then he wanted it more. And that kind of speaks to human nature. Have you ever heard of a term called mimetic desire? You ever heard that term memetic desire? It's like a. It's a. It's an idea that we mimic. What we desire is we're mimicking it. So when you see, like y' all got little kids, you could take your kids and put them in a room, and one of them is playing with a toy and they get sick of playing with it. I don't want to play this anymore. They throw it on the ground. But as soon as one of the other kids picks it up, what does that One kid do who threw it on the ground. They want it back and it's that, oh, and then they start fighting over it. So I think there's some of that going on here with Saul. He's looking at, you know, what he had and he knows he's going to lose it. And now all of a sudden, it creates this really incredible paranoia in him that he starts to start to do some really radical stuff to try to get David out of the way. But as we're going to find out, you can't really thwart the will of God.
- [17:42]
Michael
The point that Dr. Jackson made to me that was interesting was because when you think about Saul becoming king, you just kind of view him as being the king of Israel and those things. But he made the point of when Saul became king, he really was taking on the role of being the priest, a prophet and a military leader. And I hadn't heard anyone talk about that. I've just thought about when you're the king of the people, you're kind of governing and you're those kind of things. But I haven't thought about it more so from the prophet and preach kind of standing.
- [18:09]
Al
Well, there's no doubt that played a big role. Remember, you can sign up to take this course for free, which is what we're doing@unashamedforhillsdale.com so you'll enjoy it. Taking it with us. No, I think you've hit it. I think, you know, he had this experience, remember, because this. He was sort of overwhelmed by the spirit. This. He called him a changed heart, I think, was the way it was framed in our. In our reading. And so he has this, like, ecstatic experience, you know, this prophetic experience.
- [18:41]
Zach
And he called it ecstasy, right?
- [18:42]
Al
Yeah, exactly.
- [18:43]
Zach
The translation. Yeah.
- [18:44]
Al
And. And. And who wouldn't, right? I mean, that's like a moment, you know, that you have. So he has this moment. So I think he's, like, unsure. I think he enjoyed that, like anybody would. So he thought, was that what I'm supposed to be? He messes up, of course, when he tries to step into the priesthood, which is something he shouldn't have done. But he does it anyway because he's impatient. You know, Remember he was waiting on Samuel, and so then it's like, oh, that felt pretty good to do this. Well, he's supposed to be the king. And so I think there is some confusing thoughts he's having over what role he's supposed to play. And it's really interesting because later on, when you get into Israel and Maybe partly because of Saul. I mean, God makes it very clear that you're not to mix those roles and that, you know, I've got my prophets to be my prophets, I've got my priesthood tribe to be that, and I've got my king to be my king. And Jesus ironically becomes the one that pulls all those back into one headship again. But when you're the Son of God, you can pull it off. When you're just one of us, you have a hard time figuring out what your role's supposed to be. So I think some of that confusion has led him to be a sort of conflicted, divided person. And I'm not so sure. I love the idea of wondering if it's outside influence or if it's just like maybe he was just a quirky person who had troubles. Because obviously with this overcome by spirits and, you know, needing to be soothed by music, I mean, Saul had some issues. I mean, he had some stuff going on. Yeah, he was a little bit, you know, I don't know, schizophrenic in some ways. So I think that was part of it too. So I think all that fed into some of his issues that he was having. And like I said, some of it I'm not even sure was totally his fault. It's just like he wasn't sure where to jump off.
- [20:24]
Zach
Well, it was that unauthorized sacrifice that he made that was really his kind of first real significant act of disobedience that he was impatient on, waiting on Samuel. And so he goes in and he circumvents the whole system. And he's like, I'm just going to do this myself and I'm going to assume this role. And one of the points that Dr. Jackson brought out that I thought was very key to really our life too, is that what God seeks is obedience over sacrifice. And that's what he was missing, the obedience part. And so he was looking at the end of it thinking, I just got to get the sacrifice in. But he was missing the big point, which is the obedience. And you know what it made me think of was later on David, after he commits a sin with Bathsheba, one of the things that he says in Psalms 51:1 is that sacrifices and burnt offerings, you weren't pleased with that, otherwise I would have given you that. But a broken spirit and a contrite heart, oh, God, you will not despise. And I think that's what Saul, he didn't get that he put the sacrifice over just straight up obedience and so really, the demise of Saul, if you said, if you were trying to locate it in one certain thing, it was just that it was. It was disobedience.
- [21:43]
Al
Well, and then the other thing, then the second. You're right. The first mistake he made was that one. Then the second big mistake he makes is he was told by God to destroy these people because this was something he had promised way back in Genesis, that the Amalekites were going to be wiped out. So now's the time he's going to do this. And he chooses this moment. He plainly gets the word to Saul, this is what you're supposed to do. And they don't do it. And they leave certain parts of themselves. They say later they're going to sacrifice them to God, you know, I guess on their timetable. And then when he's confronted about it by Samuel, remember what he does? He blames the troops. He was immediately. And you think about that. When we look at a leader, if we see a president that makes a bad call and the first thing he started doing was blaming the military or blaming the opposition party, blaming somebody, we would all look at that and lose. We would lose respect right off the bat. But if you have a guy step up and say, guys, I blew it. I mean, I should have done this, this, and this. Most people would say, now there's a guy I can follow. And so I see the same thing here. The troops. And you remember, he made the other thing that wasn't even like one of his big mistakes, but it was a huge, super bad decision when he had the. And Jackson brought this out when he. He decides the troops need to fast, right in the middle of a right war. In other words, don't eat while we're out here doing these long days of battle. And so, of course, everybody's famished. They're falling out. And his own son finds some honey, is like, oh, my gosh, he's just eating this. But the troops loved it because it was like, well, there's a guy I could follow right there because he understands his dad, not so much.
- [23:26]
John Luke
But then Saul doesn't. They figure out Jonathan, and Saul doesn't follow up with it. And I think that's the other thing that Saul doesn't do. I think I have made that note too, about Saul. And just a key difference between Saul and David is that David takes responsibility for his actions and Saul doesn't. And I've been reading this other book, talking about kind of like biblical manhood and just thinking about manhood in general and that's one of the. I think the key things about becoming a man is taking responsibility for your actions. But Saul, at every point, blame someone else. Samuel doesn't. He blame Samuel because he didn't show up on time. He blames the troops because they didn't do what he said. He blames Jonathan because he was hungry. He keeps passing on this blame instead of taking responsibility for his actions.
- [24:16]
Al
Right.
- [24:17]
Michael
Samuel seemed like a funny guy to me. When he's talking to Saul and he's like, what's this bleating of sheep I hear in my ear? But I was thinking about it from a human whenever Samuel. Because Dr. Jackson talked about this from a literary perspective, when Samuel talking to Agag about the sword. And, you know, you've. You've made woman barren. But I'm thinking about it from Saul. If Saul's just, you know, if they're all in this. This. This tent, this kind of whatever the setting looked like, and Samuel just walks up and just. Just hacks the dude to pieces. I wonder if. I wonder. I wonder if Saul's like. I wonder if Saul's like, wait, what, Samuel? What just happened? Or if that was like a. If that was like a normal thing that.
- [24:58]
Al
Right.
- [24:59]
Zach
That.
- [24:59]
Michael
That priests and prophets would have just slaughtered people like that.
- [25:03]
Al
Well, if you look back. If you go back to the Book of Judges, the answer is yes. I mean, they kind of did. And mainly because.
- [25:11]
Zach
It is rated R. Oh, it is.
- [25:13]
Michael
Well, I'm just thinking about if Saul's like, you know, standing there after this moment, and he. And Samuel just takes that sword and just goes, ham. I wonder if Saul was like, just, Whoa.
- [25:22]
Zach
Well, he had to have felt in some capacity, just like, I fail. Like, I just like. Like completely circumvent. Because, you know, when you're confronted with someone else's righteousness and it highlights your own lack of integrity, that's a. That's very convicting. I mean, I've been in those situations where I've been, like, I've done the wrong thing and I'm doing the wrong thing. And then somebody else comes in and they're just like. Like, just filled with the spirit and they're. And it's. It's just convicting, you're saying. So there's a little bit of you that's kind of like, for me, there's a little bit in me that's like. There's a jealousy, like a spiritual jealousy. There's kind of like an unholy lament. But then I think there's Also, if you yield and just admit and come to the end of yourself, then you can be like, David, just like, oh, it's me. Yep, I'm that guy, and I repent. Like, that's. You have to make that transition, because if you don't, you're going to end up like Saul. And that was his progression. He even knew that his demise was coming, but it didn't even matter. Like, he was so blind by his own jealousies and his own quest to maintain power that he couldn't even. I mean, it was like he knew the end was coming, but he just hang on, hang on, just trying to hang on to the deal. And when we do that. I was thinking about what he did. He refused to kill Agag, and also he refused to kill all the livestock. And so he kept. He hoarded them up for himself. And I thought, you know what story that reminds me of in the Exodus? The Manna. It's the same idea. Because why would he not kill those animals? Because they're valuable. I mean, he took the choice livestock, and he's like, man, these are the best stakes in town. Like, we're going to keep these. We don't want to. Why are we going to kill that? That's a waste. And so he's in his own rationality, he's thinking, then this is like wealth. This is prosperity. This is. Whatever it is, I'm not going to just get rid of that. We've won. God, surely he just wants us to defeat them. They've been defeated. Everything's good. We did what we were supposed to do. Now let's just keep this other stuff, these spoils for ourselves. And it's the same idea in the story of the Exodus, of, well, I mean, let's hoard this man up. We don't want it to go to waste. So they're thinking rationally. The problem is they're not trusting in the provision of God. And they're thinking that they're the ones that are actually doing it when they're not.
- [27:48]
Al
Which is why God told them to do it and not to.
- [27:51]
Zach
To do it.
- [27:51]
Al
It was his wisdom. And that's exactly what he was thinking, Zach, because he even said. He said, I mean, I'm going to give. I'm going to sacrifice some of this. Like, we're going to have future sacrifices. This is going to be great. But that's not what God told him to do. I like the other little desperate move he does here, which again, shows you, if you put all this together, you asked the Question. In the other earlier podcast, the composite of Saul, in other words, he starts out seeming like kind of a likable guy. You know, he's concerned about what his dad thinks. But when this composite of his life begins to come together, you start thinking this guy. And was when, you know, so he gets this major rebuke from Samuel. Remember, he just grabs his cloak, which is a big deal to Samuel. The mother's been dropping off the cloak. Remember, that's a big thing. And he grabs it in such desperation that he rips it. I mean, that's. You think about somebody. This thing was probably well made. But he's so desperate and trying to get. So don't leave me. That he holds on to Samuel and he rips the cloak. And then in the moment, Samuel takes the prophet role, which is, again, just straight black and white. He said, because you ripped that the kingdom's gonna be ripped from you. I mean, just like that. It was just like, this is your problem. This moment is your problem. And so I think you're just starting to see those accrue, you know, in Saul's life. And it just shows he's really a weak leader. I mean, that's. You know, it's a sad thing to say, but it's true.
- [29:13]
John Luke
Yeah. I had a thought on just the course overall, and specifically talking about Samuel. I feel like reading this course like this and watching the course with Dr. Jackson really kind of brings these characters to life in a way that I've never really thought about them.
- [29:31]
Al
Yeah.
- [29:31]
John Luke
I think growing up, I've read this and read it. I don't want to say, like, more theologically, but very more like litter. Literally more like, oh, this is like history. And because of that, I've kind of glazed over some of the more spiritual aspects of it in the more kind of like the. For lack of a better word, like God doing these, like, miracles kinds of things, and thinking about what does that mean for the character? What does that mean for, you know, the people? And I think, like, on chapter 12, which he didn't really get into this chapter 12, when Samuel gets angry and he calls down the thunder and lightning, that was just another thing I read that I thought that you got. Saul should have a little more respect for Samuel and everyone. All the Israelites have got to be terrified of this guy, right? He's chopping people up. He's calling down thunder and lightning. He's yelling, everyone.
- [30:31]
Michael
He's right. So his hair is like.
- [30:34]
John Luke
His hair like Samuel's.
- [30:38]
Al
It would be like, you. You Go forward in time and you see, like, the different stories, like Elisha, when the. The band of teenage. The teenage rebels come out and start calling it hey, baldy. Hey. I like that bald head you got there. And all of a sudden he's just like two bears.
- [30:52]
John Luke
Yeah.
- [30:52]
Al
You know, and they come out of Maul. The youth, you know, it's just like.
- [30:57]
Zach
Stephen. Stephen Lang played David. I mean, I'm sorry, Samuel in the house of David. And. And his role is terrifying. I mean, I thought he did an incredible job.
- [31:07]
Michael
It's unbelievable.
- [31:08]
Zach
I mean, it's like. Well, because you think about these guys and you want to. You know, because the. Probably here's a problem. When you. If you grew up in church, this isn't a problem. It kind of is a problem. We had this felt boards. You know what I mean? And they would have the little cutout characters. This is back in the old days, guys. Y' all probably had, like, veggie tails.
- [31:24]
Michael
I know what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about.
- [31:26]
Al
Just dated us.
- [31:28]
Zach
I mean, back in our day, we had the felt boards. It was like you had to feel.
- [31:32]
Al
Your way to these characters. Characters or whatever.
- [31:35]
Zach
It's the kids. It's like these cartoon characters almost. So you always see these guys, as I've always thought of the prophets and. And, you know, these priests. The high priest. Yeah, these are nice guys. And then you. But then when you watch that, the. The ep, that episode where Samuel comes out and he calls that the thunder down. And he has the altercation with Saul, everything we're talking about here, and he goes in there with that sword, and just. I mean, then you're like, whoa. This guy was like this. This is like.
- [32:03]
John Luke
That's what I'm saying. Scary guy.
- [32:06]
Zach
It's a different kind of deal. And Stephen Lang did a great job in that. But I think that that's what's going on here is. But I think Saul's gotta be, on some level, really intimidated by Samuel because Samuel is the prophet, and so he is the guy that's supposed to tell the truth no matter what. And he does, and he lays it out there. And then all it is to tell the truth. What's interesting is that Saul tries to steal his role as priest, and in doing so, he abdicates his role as king. And so what, he doesn't. He doesn't kill Agag, which he should have. And so then what ends up happening is now the priest has to do what the king was supposed to do. So it's Kind of a weird reversal of roles that, that Samuel actually righteously does finish the job, but what Saul wouldn't do. And then Saul was impatient, trying to do the job of the king, I mean, of the priest, when he should have just been doing the job of the king in the first place.
- [33:06]
Al
Well, and your actions back it up, right? I mean, we had. I won't name him, but we had a recent president that appeared to be very sickly and weak and not very strong. And when he would come out and do a speech where he would just rail and what he's going to do, and we're going to stamp this out, and you're watching and you're listening to it, even whether you, Whether you followed his politics or not, it just didn't instill a lot of confidence, you know, that this guy was going to follow through. You know, it just came across as kind of a ranting person. And I feel that way about Saul. You remember, he came out real strong when he first came out. I'm going to do this. We'll cut. He cuts the animals to pieces. And I'll send you this if you don't follow us. But then when we get into the weeds of his leadership, not really, you know, we're just not feeling that. And I think his troops didn't feel that way. His own children didn't feel that way. I mean, his children sided with David over him. I mean, if that doesn't tell you anything about his leadership and his ability to lead, that, that should do it. Don't forget to sign up to take the course for free with us@unashamedforhillsdale.com so.
- [34:11]
Michael
Then after Saul's disobedience, you go straight from Samuel anointing David, and then from there, David and Goliath, if we want to jump on over to the next.
- [34:19]
Zach
Portion, yeah, for sure. So then you got Goliath, which he didn't get into this, But I've always found it interesting, Michael Heiser's connection of Goliath to the nephilim in Genesis 6, that he was left over when they. He didn't bring this up, but I just wanted to mention it because I thought it was fascinating when I was reading his book, I can't remember the name of it now, but he talked about how when Joshua went in. Well, initially, whenever Moses sent his spies in to look at the Canaanites, they were like, oh, we can't defeat them because they're giants. And so Joshua comes back in and finishes the job. But the only place that he didn't go was this area where the Philistines are. And so Goliath is thought to be kind of like this leftover part of the Nephilim.
- [35:07]
Al
Some genetics there. Yeah, they probably.
- [35:09]
Zach
Yeah, so genetics there. So you're even seeing, like. In this, you're seeing like God's redemptive plan being played out through the Davidic line. And David shows up on the scene and, yeah, he's a little shepherd boy now, but he's also, as Dr. Jackson brought up, he kills lions for a living, too.
- [35:30]
Al
Yeah, that line of I killed lions and bears was a big line. And Dr. Jackson really highlighted that, that he wasn't. He had a way of presenting himself as less fierce than he really was. But. But unlike Saul, that's the way you want to do it. You want to underplay it at the front, and then all of a sudden the back end is going to whip you. And that's exactly the kind of way David approached it. He was the opposite way. Before we get to the Goliath story, because it's so fascinating, I do want to say something about the anointing. You know, part of the thing that Samuel continues to do the same thing. Remember, he recognizes the bigger, older, you know, oldest son and says, oh, here, this has got to be the guy. He's making the same mistake they did before. He's looking at the guy on the outside. And then, of course, remember, God tells him. He says, I don't look at the appearance of the man. I look at the heart that's inside. And so then David, you think about. He didn't even get invited to the. To the screening. You know, he's still out doing the. Because, I mean, there. I guess Jesse was just saying, we're not bringing the run in because there's no way he's going to. To get picked. And that was God's guy all along.
- [36:36]
Zach
It's kind of like Cinderella. She wasn't even at the ball, you know, or she wouldn't. She didn't get invited to the ball. But then she shows up and it's always, yeah, but that is the way that. That it seems like that seems to be the. The story of God's people. It's never the guy you think.
- [36:50]
Al
What's interesting is, so he gets anointed, which is a secret anointing. The only people in Israel that know that he's been anointing, and I'm assuming they're kind of sworn to secrecy, is Jesse, David's brothers. And David. And that's it. Nobody else really knows. But you know, the spirit of God then comes on David. But you notice something, the spirit of God comes on him. The spirit of God leaves Saul.
- [37:11]
Zach
Yeah.
- [37:12]
Al
And then we start seeing all of Saul's problems, his personal problems and everything else. So that is interesting that it doesn't mean it has to be that way. But it. God did it where he sent his spirit to be on David and he and his spirit leave Saul, which now imagine he at least with all of his problems, he had the spirit of God on him. Now he doesn't even have that, which is why I think the wheels come off. So that, that gets us to this point of the story in About Goliath. And I've always loved the story because it's like they're having this big showdown and you see movies before everybody's lined up and then they're kind of like this, what do they call it, the battle of conquest. You just, you put one out and we'll put our guy out. And then whoever wins, we'll just go home.
- [37:55]
Michael
The movie Troy.
- [37:56]
Al
Exactly. There's no sense in everybody dying here. Let's just, just put somebody out. So they put out this former Nephilim, I guess, almost ten foot guys like, well, here's our guy. And everybody is just like. I mean, everybody's looking around, I mean.
- [38:12]
Zach
Because Saul, because Saul was a big dude, but this guy, like way bigger than he was.
- [38:16]
Al
Exactly.
- [38:17]
Zach
Saul's the biggest guy in Israel. But I mean, he's like the big guy. He's the big man on campus. And then their big man comes out and Saul's like, oh, I don't want, I don't.
- [38:25]
Al
But then the guy's like, so the Goliaths is like a Taunter though, right? Because he's coming out every day. He's like, well, none of these dogs from Israel ever come up and he's just insulting him. I thought you guys were supposed to be this, that and the other. So, you know, you see these taunts that are going. And it's so funny because David, who is just a courier, he's doordash for the truth, for his brothers. He's just bringing in some, you know, new fruits and vegetables and some sheep, you know, wolf on the field. He's door dashing up to the thing and he hears this and he is totally offended. He's like, wha? He's saying wha? And so like he's going, all these people saying. And then there, remember the brother's like, why don't you go back and tend to your. She let the real men stand here and take the insults. Yeah.
- [39:11]
Michael
One of my favorite parts about the story is when, you know, David's like, so what will be done for the man who.
- [39:17]
Al
Just curious.
- [39:18]
Michael
Before I come out there, just curious. What?
- [39:20]
Al
What is it? Didn't I hear that? Something about the king's wife. I don't know, the king's daughter, something about that.
- [39:26]
John Luke
Well, it's funny because I think David's brothers, at this point, they know he's king. They know he's been anointed, right? And they've got to be like, oh, here comes the king. Here comes the little king. Come bringing us our food. And then David kills a Goliath. And they've got to be like, oh, no, he was. Samuel was right. This is it. This is happening.
- [39:46]
Al
If there was ever the true litmus test, even if Dr. J was right, right. That there was more ferocity to David than we thought. He did go out there unarmored, and we know he wasn't very big because we kind of get that picture from 1st Samuel 16. So he's not a big guy. And he goes out there as the little guy, which. That's the sports reference, you know, David and Cly. But. And then he just says the key words, and you remember his first words. Who is this person that's going to insult my God? And then he's like, no, the battle belongs to the Lord. And that becomes the battle cry for what happens. And, I mean, a lot of people said, you know, why did he pick five stones? And, you know, when. When it only took one to do it. But I think any warrior would understand that in case I missed that first time, you know, and he was doing rope a dope, too. Y' all are too young to remember. Maybe even Zach is. But when I was younger, Muhammad Ali was like the big boxing icon in the 70s, and he invented something called the rope a dope. And, you know, most times, just two big guys got there and slugged it out in the middle till somebody knocked the other one out. But Ali comes along, and he was a very good athlete, and he trained to. He would go in, stick, jab, stick, jab, stick, jab, and then back away. And so he would tire these big lumbering guys out, and then he would beat them on points, or every once in a while, he'd knock one out. But that's exactly what Jackson was saying. That's what David was doing, right? He was doing the rope a dope. He was just Going to run around in circles. He never was going to grapple with this giant guy. And then when he got a rock in there, that was it. But he only needed one.
- [41:22]
John Luke
Yeah, but David didn't know he needed one.
- [41:24]
Al
Exactly.
- [41:25]
John Luke
He came in with a plan.
- [41:26]
Al
He came in with a plan.
- [41:27]
John Luke
He knew God was going to help him, but he still had a plan.
- [41:31]
Zach
He was underestimated. You said he was a door dash guy, which they call those dashers. Did you know that they called doordash people dashers?
- [41:39]
Al
I think it fits perfect. I think you got the more I think the future if this podcast thing doesn't work out.
- [41:46]
Zach
Never, never underestimate a dasher. I'm just, I mean, clearly David's showing up as a dasher, like you said. I thought maybe, maybe the best point we've made on this podcast.
- [41:56]
Al
Thank you.
- [41:57]
John Luke
Thank you.
- [41:58]
Michael
Yeah, Zach would show up to bring someone meat and cheese, and the guy's like, bro, just give me my food. Zach's like, tell us him.
- [42:06]
Zach
Hey, dude, I'm a warrior, man. I'm ready. I'm ready to roll. You want to roll? Get the slingshot out. Let's go.
- [42:11]
John Luke
And on a theological sense, though not physically exactly, in a mental capacity.
- [42:16]
Zach
No, physically, I go physically, too. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a warrior. I, I, you know, you wanted to say you'd be a warrior, but truthfully, I mean, like, I, I think any of us would be extremely intimidated in this, but one of the points that Dr. Jackson brought up that I think will play out later in the story is that that David does have an anticipation that he's going to be the guy because he was anointed. So I think that was an interesting thought. He's not just walking around like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen to me. He knows his calling. He knows he's going to be the guy. So there is a level of confidence in David. Even the fact that he would go against Goliath, I think that that came from probably the way God prepared him as a young man, that he would allow him to kill, enable him to kill bears and lions. So he was. Which that, again, is also in the show that we were talking about. So that's a part of his character, but also he's coming into this with confidence. And later, when he's asked to kill, get the foreskins of a hundred Philistines, I mean, he's like, let's go.
- [43:18]
Al
Oh, we're going to get in that next time. So one of the things that I was going to throw out there and see what you guys thought about it. I had always. Because I've taught this text many times, and I was always not sure about the sequencing in chronological order. It never seemed quite right to me. It seemed like it, you know, because I was like, how does. How does Saul not know? He is. And he's playing music for him and all this. And Dr. Jackson helped me with the possibility, and he just threw it out there as a maybe, you know, because this is one of those, I'm sure that's debated between scholars, that they're just showing the two sides of David. I mean, one is like his musician side, his ability to be in the palace, to be there with Saul, and then the other one to show this fierce warrior. But if you think about it, it would probably make more sense because David is still a shepherd. You still don't know anything much about him. And he shows up in this moment, which was a happenstance doordash moment. And then he does this because, remember, Saul says, now who does this one belong to? Well, he wouldn't have said that if he had already known who he was. And I always struggle with that. I thought, that doesn't make sense. But if it's put there not necessarily in chronological order, but just in a picture of the two things, I think now, and this is just my opinion, I could be wrong, that this was the introduction, in other words, and Saul didn't. I mean, other than trying to get him his armor, he just is watching like everybody else, and all of a sudden it happens, and everybody goes nuts. And one of the things we didn't get into in the story, Dr. Jackson didn't touch it, but he cuts his head off, Goliath. And imagine this guy's got a big old head, and then he carries it around with him for about a month. Yeah, by the way, I mean, just to show you. I mean, he's literally everywhere. He goes, like, yeah, see, with this guy. What about this guy? And so, like, there's something about David that lets, you know right there, he's. He's. He's cut out a little different cloth.
- [45:02]
Zach
It's like, what's going on, man? I'm nothing. I'm just carrying around.
- [45:05]
Al
I got a giant sword and a giant head to go with it.
- [45:08]
Zach
I bet it stunk, too.
- [45:09]
Al
Oh, you know it. And so I think that was. That helped kind of clear that up in my mind, that that was probably how he bounced on the scene. And then somebody probably said, oh, you know, he plays a mean liar at.
- [45:23]
Michael
Some point later in the story. He uses that sword too, doesn't he?
- [45:25]
Al
He does. It shows up at nob.
- [45:27]
Michael
Yeah, he. Goliath can't be a giant and have this sword. And d. I always feel like David's like a scrawny, but I'm like, to wield the sword, you got to be. You have to have some sort of physical stature. Yes. I. I think. I think David was more scrappy, more well prepared for the situation.
- [45:48]
Zach
He was cut up. All dashers are cut up. You're a dasher. You got to be. You got to be ripped. I mean, that's part of it. It's part of the calling.
- [45:56]
Al
Well, I did. All I did is have to enter door dash and that's it.
- [45:59]
Zach
You just. You made the podcast say, well, look, guys, we're running out of time here, but definitely want to invite you guys to join up. Take the course free with us. We're in the story of David right now. They have a lot of other. Other courses, too. You go to unashamedforhillsdale.com that's unashamedforhillsdale dot com take this course. David, with us. And again, you can also check out the ones we've already done, which were Genesis, Exodus. They got a bunch of others, too, so.
- [46:23]
Al
All right. One more point I want to bring out before we wrap it up, Zach, is that I thought the. The most powerful close of this lesson. And again, Dr. J made the point that Saul still had the opportunity up until this point to do what was right, you know, because now as the story advances, because now we're going to get next time into chapter 18, and we're going to see this thing really fall apart in terms of being to the point where Saul's running around trying to kill him in the palace, and it creates all this rift between Jonathan, who is Saul's son, and David. And then even. Even Saul, unseemly, uses his daughter in a political way to try to destroy David. But he has the opportunity at any point to embrace the will of God. It's very obvious that David has something special and Saul even recogn. But he just. He won't do it. And this whole thing we've been talking about, I think two words come to my faithfulness. Because this thing goes back with Hannah. Remember even the tearing of the cloak. He tore the cloak of faithfulness out of his own desperation and because that's what that cloak represented to Samuel, how faithful his mom was. You know, for him to even be on the. On the earth. And so I think faithfulness, and the other one's repentance. When you mess up, you got to be willing to say, I screwed up.
- [47:38]
Michael
And that's the thing, too, because Dr. Jackson did say after, you know, when Samuel confronts him, Saul does seem like he repents, but there's no actual heart change.
- [47:48]
Al
Exactly.
- [47:48]
Michael
So Dr. Jackson's kind of making that point of there's just mere words that you're saying, but then there's actually a heart posture, which you see in David, like, like Zach talked about with Psalm 51. Like, there's. There's repentance that's mainly just mere words, and. And you're sorry, but there's no actual heart change in it. And I think that's the difference between Saul and David is that when David's repentant, there's actually heart change with it and there's actually remorse, which we get into next time in the lecture.
- [48:14]
Al
Yeah. So the next lesson will be 1st Samuel 18 through 2nd Samuel 1. So if you want to read ahead, we're calling, or Dr. Jackson calls it, the Tragedy of Saul. And we are. We're going to see the bitter end.
- [48:26]
Zach
It'd be lecture five if you're traveling. Is that right? Yeah, Lecture five.
- [48:32]
Al
So that's it. We'll see you next week, and we'll continue to this great story.
- [48:36]
Zach
Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.