Ep 1239 | The Robertsons’ Best Advice for Avoiding Pornography

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: 1239 | The Robertsons’ Best Advice for Avoiding Pornography
Date: January 2, 2026
Host: Tread Lively with Phil, Al, Jase, Zach, Christian, and John Luke

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the story of King David's rise and fall, with special focus on 2 Samuel 11 and Psalm 51. The Robertsons dig deep into biblical narratives about temptation, leadership, repentance, and responsibility, connecting David's story to modern struggles — particularly with issues like pornography. The conversation is rich with personal insights, biblical analysis, and practical advice, all rooted in the Robertsons' Christian worldview.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David’s Story: From Hero to Flawed Leader

• Setting the Stage:

  • The episode opens with gratitude for the chance to study Scripture together, particularly David’s journey from anointed leader to tragic figure.
  • The hosts discuss the contrast between Saul and David, highlighting that even great men are deeply flawed.

    "Great men are still flawed men. And even when we look at the Bible, it's easy for us to draw lines on heroes and villains... but really everybody is a villain in some way because we're flawed people." – Al ([09:18])

• David’s Heart and Leadership:

  • God looked at David’s heart, not just his outward actions or leadership qualities (1 Samuel 13:14, 16:7).
  • The story reframes the idea of biblical heroes: they're complex, and everyone is susceptible to failure.

"The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." – Al, quoting Scripture ([07:23])

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2. Personal and Political: David’s Relationships

• The Intertwined Roles of King and Shepherd:
  • David’s role as king wasn’t divorced from his personal life. Actions (like reclaiming Michal as his wife) were both political and personal.
  • Today’s Christians often separate the “spiritual” from the “political,” which the Robertsons warn is a mistake.

"You can't separate the shepherd from the king. They have to be as one. The true king is the true shepherd." – Al ([23:52])

• Modern Parallels:
  • The hosts relate biblical politics and personal faith to issues like Christian involvement in politics today, warning against using faith merely for political gain — or avoiding politics altogether.

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3. The Fall: Temptation, Abdication, and Consequence

• David’s Big Mistake — Rooted in Small Choices:
  • The sin with Bathsheba didn’t start with adultery; it began when David abdicated his responsibilities as king. He stayed home when he should’ve been at war.

"The big sin, the big failure... doesn't begin with the big sin. It actually begins with the abdication of your responsibility." – Zach ([40:29])

• Warning for Modern Men:
  • The hosts equate David’s aimlessness on the rooftop to mindless scrolling — particularly the risk of pornography when not actively pursuing one’s responsibilities.
  • They highlight that sin and temptation often creep in during boredom or idleness.

"Men get into the biggest trouble when we're bored... I always say when men are in a position, when your family is asleep but you're always awake, you're probably going to find yourself in serious trouble. That's where pornography and all these things come from." – Al ([39:07])

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4. Repentance, Accountability, and God’s Faithfulness

• The Power of Repentance:
  • Unlike some modern examples of fallen leaders, David’s greatness was found in his repentance, not his perfection.
  • God’s covenant with David was ultimately fulfilled through Christ — demonstrating that God’s faithfulness holds even when human leaders fail.

"If the covenant depends on the faithfulness of God, if God's the one who's going to build the house, then we're in great shape. For me, that's the most encouraging thing about David's horrible fall." – Zach ([34:36])

• Personal Stories and Advice:
  • The Robertsons share a testimony about a fire chief who, at a crossroads between clicking on pornography or the Unashamed podcast, made a life-changing choice.
  • They emphasize that good choices, even small ones, can redirect entire destinies.

"Sometimes a good click can change your life." – Al ([48:50])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership and Failure:

  "Just because God's placed me as the leader doesn't mean every action is a good action. I still have to hold myself accountable..." – John Luke ([31:23])

• On Personal versus Political:

  "Is it political or is it spiritual? As if these two things are separate from one another. But really you can't separate the personal and the spiritual from the political." – Zach ([21:24])

• Modern Analogy:

  "David didn't have a phone, but he had rooftops. And he was up there scrolling through the rooftops..." – John Luke ([42:27])

• On How Sin Creeps In:

  "If you're on offense, then you don't have to defend anything because you're actually on offense and you're the one that's pursuing. Which is the picture of the kingdom, by the way." – Zach ([45:31])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:23] – The “heart” of leadership and the reality of flawed heroes.
• [09:38] – Exploring the political and personal aspects of David’s relationships.
• [21:24] – The inseparability of spiritual, personal, and political life.
• [31:23] – Accountability as a Christian leader: lessons from David.
• [40:29] – The roots of sin: abdication of responsibility and its modern implications.
• [43:12] – The loyalty of David’s men versus his disloyalty.
• [45:31] – Commentary on offensive faith versus defensive living.
• [48:50] – How a small decision (good or bad) can alter your life.

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by candid, practical, and relatable conversation. The Robertsons speak openly, sometimes humorously, but always with sincerity about faith, sin, and redemption. There is a clear anchoring in Scripture, but the dialogue remains accessible and packed with real-life applications for listeners’ spiritual and daily lives.

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Practical Advice for Avoiding Pornography

• Stay engaged with your responsibilities and purpose.
• Fill your life with good things, rather than just trying to keep sin out (have "good offense").
• Recognize boredom and idleness as danger zones.
• Reach for positive spiritual input when tempted, even in small daily choices.
• Be open with trusted people about struggles and seek accountability.
• Remember: Redemption is always possible, and God’s faithfulness is greater than our failures.

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[Dad]

Father, I just want to come to you. And I'm so grateful that Zach had the awareness that we should pause and just ask you to bless everything that we do and especially into this very important Bible study. I know people are following along with us and we get the opportunity and really the pleasure of getting to study this together and be impacted by it, as I was this morning already. So thank you for that. Just pray, Holy Spirit, that these words will be your words. Not only the ones that you carried along all those years ago through David, through the lineage that led to Jesus, but also the same thing you do in our lives every day, and that's lead us closer to you and closer to Christ. So just pray that you will do what you do best today and that we won't get in your way. We love you. We thank you for Jesus. In his name. Amen.

[Zach]

Amen. I am unashamed. What about you? Well, welcome back to the Unashamed podcast Hillsdale episode. This is great because I know that Christian you said you got, you were up at 3am in the morning going through these courses. You know, it's good when somebody gets up at 3am to go through a Hillsdale course.

[Christian]

Yeah, I was. I was going deer hunting, but I was really wanting to go deer hunting just so I could listen to Dr. Jackson at 3:00am Matty, did you get that picture?

[Dad]

You have to show. Matty will show the picture on the show because he took a picture of it. Of course, I would never even know how to do that in my truck. Like, I was marveling at the fact you were able to do it. I was like, wow, I can only do it on my computer with my blue notepad. I was like, once again, the technical.

[Christian]

For those listening. I was not watching it at 3am while I was driving. I was listening to it while I was driving. But I was actually. So I think I was more focused listening that early than I would be just in the afternoon. So I'm feeling well prepared.

[Dad]

Dr. J, he listens, so I know he's going to be so impressed that you listen to him at 3am an.

[Christian]

Hour drive to the deer stand. And Dr. Jackson was in my truck with me the whole time.

[Dad]

And I just want to say, Christian, welcome to being a man. Because you have a beard now, sort of.

[Christian]

Thank you. Yeah, it's growing.

[Dad]

It's coming. And so he has now joined the bearded broadcast. Yeah, you know, he's been beardless.

[Christian]

He's been the one beardless guy here.

[Dad]

So. Yeah, I like it. It looks good.

[Zach]

Well, look at John Luke. I mean, that's a. See, that's a family beard there.

[Dad]

Oh, yeah.

[John Luke]

I shaved half of it off this morning too. I cut it down to look nice for you guys.

[Christian]

You put beard oil in?

[John Luke]

Yes, I do. Beard oil, yep.

[Dad]

John Luke is the new Absalom. He's got the hair.

[Zach]

I love that.

[John Luke]

Five shekels.

[Zach]

Five shekels of beard off. Did you lose your strength at all? How are you doing on your.

[Dad]

We're gonna get forecasting.

[Christian]

We're gonna get to Absolm's hair. But is his hair just really long or is it just like short and heavy?

[Dad]

Yeah, there's a thickness.

[John Luke]

It's long.

[Zach]

Like long enough to get. Long enough for it to get hung up.

[Christian]

Oh, that's true. I forgot about that part.

[Zach]

It's got to be.

[Christian]

But it could be like just wavy. But if it's wavy. Or is it like Rapunzel?

[Zach]

I would say not quite Rapunzel. I would think it. I mean, my. My gut tells me based on the ex, it was probably about a mid.

[Christian]

Back, but.

[Dad]

The theology of Absalom.

[Zach]

Theology of Absalon.

[Dad]

So did. So did you grow the beard Christian for hunting season? That was the kind of. Yeah, that's how it started, you know, for us. It wasn't like this whole, yeah, you know, beards are cool. It's just. It was warmth and.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Dad]

You know, less face paint.

[Christian]

Yeah, well, I was wanting to start like beginning of October, but then we were still filming stuff for the show, so I couldn't like change my look for stuff and things like that.

[Dad]

But continuity.

[Christian]

Yes. But I ended. I started like probably three weeks ago. But yeah, I told Sadie I wanted to grow my hair out long for the fall and try to do a beard just for the. For the rest of duck and deer season. So try to get a look at it after.

[Zach]

But yeah, I can't see like I used to. So I put my glasses on. I can kind of see. It's like a little starter beard. I still would say it's a. It's a little Yasser Arafat beard.

[Dad]

Yeah, it's a starter pack. That's what they told me, Christian, back in the day. When I grow mine, I was typically beardless because I was a pastor, which, you know, little old ladies don't love big thick beards. And so that was why I never grew it out long, but they would make fun of me. So now, unfortunately, I'm trying to do the same thing to you.

[Christian]

Your beard looks good. It looks captive.

[Dad]

Yeah. Mine is now very white and honoring of my years now that I'm in my 60s. So as dad would say, I'm pushing 70.

[Zach]

Yeah, I'm starting pushing 70. Well, we're in the story of David primarily. Two chapters are going to hang out in for a little. We may actually talked about it this morning, Alice. Like I think we need to might hang out in two Samuel 11 and Psalm 51. We may extend this out into next week's Hillsdale episode.

[Dad]

It's so good. We have to. Zach. It's just to me it's one of the. And it's such a sad thing. I thought Dr. Jackson did a great job of like framing the sadness of this story, you know, because it is so bad. Although this has kind of been the thing the whole time with the fathers and the sons and here we go again. But it's so rich in the idea of being able to come back from like the worst thing you could imagine as well. So there's just so much redemption there. I just, I feel like we got to talk about a couple of podcast for sure. Zach.

[Zach]

Yeah. And you guys can go check this out too. Go to Unashamed for Hillsdale. You can sign up for the courses with us. We've already completed Genesis and Exodus and now we're in the story of David. So that's the course we're taking right now. But I would encourage you to go back and we release these every Friday and the course is free for you to take it if you want to take it with us. And I would encourage you to go back. And a lot of you are, by the way, I got some of the stats from Hillsdale. So a lot of you guys are not. I mean, you're registering for more than one course, which is great because we really want to educate the audience and ourselves in the Bible. So this is great. In this passage or this particular part in the day, one thing you said, Al too, you said this really resonates with you and Lisa's story, particularly Psalm 51, because to kind of set the backdrop here, you got David, who we've been holding David up as this guy with just great character. He was anointed. He is now in public leadership. He's doing the thing that he should be doing. And he's kind of the way we presented him, or I say the Bible has presented him up until this point is kind of juxtaposed to Saul, who is really evil. David's the guy. I mean, he is the perfect hero, except that he's not. Right? So this is not a tale of a perfect hero. It's actually the story of a deeply flawed man who is still held by God's covenant faithfulness. And so that really is the story. And so, yeah, you want to kind of get us up to speed, Al, with what?

[Dad]

I wanted to quote a scripture because you set it up. Well, there was this secret anointing, but you remember, this was from 1st Samuel 13:14. Samuel's rebuking Saul because you're right, all we've had now is this comparison of these two men. And he says, but now your kingdom will not endure. The Lord has sought out a man after his own heart. And Dr. J is really zeroed in on this heart thing. And I never realized it was in there so much till he pointed that out and appointed him ruler of his people. And then you get to, that's 1 Samuel 13:14. Then you get to 16, 7, and you see Samuel, who said that to Saul, makes the same mistake. Remember when the older brother Eli is there and he's like, ooh, look at this guy. Yeah, I bet he's the guy. And then God has to remind Samuel and says, you do not consider his appearance or his height, which is how Saul got picked, remember, for I have rejected him. Talking about the older brother. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. So here was this heart motif and imagery again. But the idea is that shows you that David, there was a goodness about him throughout this entire process. And to me, the greatest part of the narrative now is what we're getting into today and next podcast is that great men are still flawed men. And even when we look at the Bible, it's easy for us to draw lines on heroes and villains kind of how we want to, but really everybody is a villain in some way because we're flawed people. And everybody can have heroic moments. And we see that. Even with some of the guys like Saul who had some moments where you look at them and think, oh, man, it wasn't all bad. Or remember back when we looked at Eli, he had so many issues, but at the same time, he was so concerned about the Ark, you know, that he loved God. So I just think this idea of the heart and the idea that David has the right heart but then loses his way is such an important thing to me. So I guess that kind of gets us up to this moment about what's going to happen.

[Christian]

And so he starts, yes, we're going to pick up in 11 but he starts the lecture six with two Samuel three, kind of with Abner joining David. And then, you know, when Joab kills Abner. And then this. There's this one thing that I want to kind of get Yalls opinion on because it's interesting and I never really hear people talk about it. But I thought what Dr. Jackson was cool was kind of showing the difference between the political and the personal. And one of the points he made was with. Was when David, you know, comes into the kingdom and he points out that, you know, when. When. When Michal sees David, she says king David, not her husband, David. But I think it's cool how. And we'll get into that in the later lectures, how the distinction between David, King David and husband, like the different uses of.

[John Luke]

Of.

[Christian]

Of kind of what people see him as, you know, later on with Absalom and stuff. But the part that to me was interesting was, you know, when Abrahams and joins David and David's request is for him to go bring back his wife and the part, you know, that talks about, I guess she has a new husband. And then he. I'm curious to know what the distance is between, you know, where they're at to Bahurim, because it says, but her husband went with her, weeping after her all the way. Then Abner said, go home. And he returned at some point. Abner's like, just go home. And the guy's like, okay.

[Dad]

And he's been following along for a long time.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Dad]

That begins the whole sad story. You're right. I forgot about that. The idea that this poor man and he loves his wife. I mean, like, the poor guy. Like, this is what I'm saying. He's only done the right thing because David remembered this whole betrothal happened as just a way to prove his manhood, remember? Because he go down and he does the Philistines, foreskins and all this stuff. And so he never really cared about her. And so, I don't know. Dr. Jackson was talking about. Was it. Was it just a political alliance or, you know, was it. Was it more than that from David's perspective? Yeah, it certainly didn't work out.

[John Luke]

Well.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Dad]

You know, because she winds up. She loves him. Yeah. You know.

[Christian]

Yeah. Because the part that was interesting, you know, talks about when. When he comes back from. When he comes back in the city and when, When, When. When she sees him and David thinks that she's, you know, kind of rebuking him for dancing for, like, political reasons. But Dr. Jackson kind of makes the point that he Thinks that she was rebuking David for more personal reasons and kind of that contrast between her father and David and so. And the kingship of that. So I thought that was interesting, which.

[Dad]

It appears to me, and this is just subjective. It appears to me that for David it was political. I mean, I really think that's why it brings her back. And I thought it was. It was probably kind of a, you know, harsh call too, because, I mean, she's already married to somebody. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I mean, he had the right to do it and he did it, and he's the king, for sure. But I mean, like, the guy's weeping all the way back home. I mean, that's. And again, this is a guy who gets angry about one thing, but then just kind of exerts his control in another moment. So.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I thought. I thought that was one of the most interesting things in this part of the lesson. I've just never heard that about Michael loving David and that take on. She was angry with him because she loved him and that kind of like shift from love to hate.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And how. I mean, we see this in life and in marriage. Like, the more you love someone, the harder that break is. And the more she hated him and was bitter afterwards, I just totally made sense to me.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I've never heard that before.

[Dad]

You know, the phrase that comes up later with the whole Tamar, or the. The instance where the rape happens and all that. He. He hated her more than he had loved her.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Dad]

Which is kind of that same thought you're talking about. And you're right, John Luke. It's when it shows you the intensity of the emotions in these relationships, which is kind of the whole narrative of the story.

[Christian]

And.

[Dad]

And yet when you put it in a political environment where you're also, like, have this family that's supposed to be shepherding all of Israel, you start to see the behind the scenes, what begins to happen when it falls apart. It's so ugly and so. So terrible, you know, and when a shepherd loses weight. And I think we could say the same thing today. Right, Zack? I mean, you see these falls from grace, we call them, with someone who is a shepherd of a large, growing, fast growing church, and good things are happening and people's lives are being changed, and all of sudden they'll just be this trained derailment over some sinful situation or some whatever. And we. I mean, we see it played out over and over. And it's like the evil one has a. Has A playbook.

[Zach]

You got a blueprint. I mean, it's funny. We had this conversation this morning with me and Jill having coffee, and she. Because we were doing. We're planning for another podcast. The other podcast I'm on, Not yet now, we were talking about this particular part in Scripture, and she came up with this line that you've all heard it, and the line is that Satan will take you further than you ever intended to go and keep you there longer than you ever intended to stay. And I've heard a lot of preachers use that line. So she was trying to find out who originally said it. And she said, you'll never guess who is most attributed with this statement that Satan will take you further than you ever intended to go, and he'll keep you there longer than you ever intended to go to stay. Which is a pretty scary thought, right? And the person that she said, when she looked it up that this statement was most associated with was Ravi Zacharias. And I thought about David when his story played out. This guy was this great spiritual leader, someone who really impacted my life a lot, and then had this other thing going on that was so dark. And I'm not saying that David was quite in that spot, because David did turn and repent, and I think that's the big difference. But, man, he did go into a very, very dark place. And. And so, yeah, David's not, like, the greatest guy in the world, but I don't think that's why God says he was a man after his own heart. I think it was because he. His willingness, as we'll see later, to repent. But. But I wanted to point out, though, that.

[Dad]

Let me say something before you go there, hold that thought, Zach, because I'm so glad you brought up Robbie, because when you said it, I immediately knew who it was, because I thought. I mean, I was a huge listener to Ravi. And so when I would drive in to preach, he was here locally. His. His podcast or podcast, his radio show back then would play here on one of our local stations, and it happened to coincide with my drive in to preach. So, like, I would list, I would already have my sermon prepared, but I would hear his stuff, and then it would impact how I shared my sermons, because it's so good. And so then when I hear the news after he died that he had a kind of a whole secret life thing going on, obviously it's devastating to someone who loved what he did, but it also reminded me that all the good things that he shared, which were by God and The Holy Spirit, even through his flaws as a human being and his sin problem, he had still impacted me and still allowed me to impact other people. In other words, it didn't take that away. My 10 years of listening to him and being impacted and then sharing that with other people before I ever found out about the other doesn't change the fact that happens. And so I think he is a perfect example of what we're talking about here. You know what I'm saying? So I'm glad you brought him up, because that personally affected me in a powerful way. Obviously, I was hugely disappointed, but I didn't just cast it aside and say, well, yeah, man, that taints him forever and he didn't do anything good. No, he blessed me for 10 years, and those blessings were real. And so it just reminds you, you can't just cast aside people because they have a sin problem. So I'm glad you brought him up.

[Zach]

And by the way, if you want to check in what we're doing here, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com you guys can sign up and take this course for free with us. We're in the Story of David. But when you were saying that, another thing I think we can keep in mind, there's a Jonathan Edwards quote. I just looked it up, so it may not be exact, but you'll get the point of it. This was in his resolutions, and I think he wrote these when he was around, like, 19, 20 years old. So he was a young guy. And I may get this wrong, but it's something to the effect of when you see men fall into the most horrible, like, the grossest of sins, we ought to look upon it as a discovery of the corruption of our own hearts as well as theirs. So it's basically, we're looking at this. And when I saw that with Ravi and other people, I don't think my first reaction is, oh, man, David. And then my second one is, what about me? I don't feel like. Like we could all be susceptible to this type of evil if we give into it and we're unrepentant with it. And so, for me, that's like the story here in David as well. What was his story? Well, his was the story of repentance, but it also was a story of severe consequences. Even though he repented, like, he did suffer greatly and his kingdom really did fall apart, particularly when you look at the end of Solomon's life. Then after that, I mean, let's face it, I mean, the rest of Israel's Kings and Judah's kings, I mean, they weren't. I mean, it just is one debacle after another. You know what I mean?

[Dad]

Yeah. And I've said this before because Solomon was blessed, but God only chose one king. I mean, David, you know, Saul didn't get chosen by God. We talked about this in this study and David did. And even Solomon started a lineage concept that then gets split and goes into terrible times for Israel. And as you said, Zach, only three or four or five kings were actually very good at all. Out of all the kings, but God only picked to one. And he said in leading up to 11, which is where we're headed. Remember when Nathan, he said, tell David he's to be the shepherd and the king of Israel and this kingdom will be unshaken. Which the same thing he's going to tell later to Solomon. But Zach, I couldn't help but think about Hebrews 12 when I heard that. Because you remember at the end of chapter 12, the Hebrew writer says the kingdom that Jesus established here is an unshaken kingdom. So you see the threads are coming all the way forward from David to Christ. I mean, that's really the purpose, this underlying through this whole thing that happens. But again, it's being ushered in by flawed people.

[Zach]

Yeah. And to your point, like God only chose one king, but really he chose another one. Right?

[Dad]

That's right.

[Zach]

Jesus, who would be a king in the line of David. But I wanted to get Yalls thoughts on this because we were talking about David reclaiming Michael. And was it political or was it personal? I think the thread from Dr. Jackson, which I think I agree with it too, it was both. It wasn't separated. You know, in Scripture, the political is never really detached from the personal. And I think that one of the areas that we're struggling with today in the church, and I understand why, but we do tend to want to separate these two worlds.

[Dad]

Right.

[Zach]

But I think about that Kuyper quote that says something like, there's not one square inch of the whole entire earth that the sovereign Lord does not cry mine. And I think that what we're seeing here in David's display, I think I know he's talking about, is it personal, is it political? I think the divide and how we see that play out today is, is it political or is it spiritual? As if these two things are separate from one another. But really you can't separate the personal and the spiritual from the political. It really all is wrapped up together. I wonder if you guys like picked up on any of that at all or have thoughts on that?

[John Luke]

I told you, I had the same thought about David. I mean, just in general, this going into this part of David's story, I thought that in the first half of David's story, he was kind of this rising political figure, and we saw him as the hero. He's going to do great things. He's killing all these guys. He's beating the bad guys. He's in the right. And the whole time he's keeping his relationship with God and keeping his priorities right as the chosen one of God and doing God's will and doing what he thought was right in the situations. Like, he didn't let his politics overcome his personal convictions. He didn't kill Saul. He didn't take more than he was owed. Like he gave to his people.

[Dad]

Even felt regret over the club.

[John Luke]

He felt regret. Like he let his, you could say, spirituality direct his political rise. But then the second half, when he becomes king, you see that downfall and you see his priorities shift and he starts to make political decisions. He starts to make spiritual decisions or moral decisions based off his politics, like his power with Bathsheba. He tries to hide it with Michael. He brings her back to. To create this line. I think it's complicated. I think he. It's some personal, some spiritual, some political or whatever, but it's very obvious that he's gone from shepherd to king and he wants to maintain his kinghood and he's forgetting about his task as shepherd.

[Dad]

No, that's so good. That's so good. And you're right, the warning was from Nathan is you can't separate the shepherd from the king. They have to be as one. Which, to your point, Zach, the true king is the true shepherd, right?

[Zach]

I mean, yeah, it's a super earthy. That's the adjective I keep coming up with. It's like it's an earthy, earthy, earthy view of the kingdom. And I just have to reject the fact that. Or the thought that God was super involved in earthly things in the Old Testament. And then Jesus comes and everything becomes spiritual. I don't think that's what the Bible teaches, but I think we've kind of embraced this. And I understand why, because nobody wants to be attached to a political movement. And I do think you have to be careful of taking the kingdom of God and conflating that with, like, a political party or even a nation, for that matter. Like, God's kingdom is well beyond the walls and borders of any nation or any political party or any political movement. But Christ certainly has something to say, and his kingdom certainly has implications in politics. You can't really separate that out. You can't separate the shepherd from the king. And I think that that's what we're trying to do today, mainly, I think, because we are maybe afraid of the repercussions of when we step out there in that world. You know what I mean? Because it does come with some.

[John Luke]

Right. I think. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Christian]

You got it.

[John Luke]

I think that is the danger, was the danger of David and the danger of in America right now is people using Christianity to advance their goals when they're actually just making political decisions instead of the other way around, settling their. Their relationship with God or their view of moral or ethics or spirituality, direct their politics. They're saying, I've got the right idea for the nation and I'm going to pick and choose these Bible verses or these ideas of God to help me attain those goals, because I'm in the right.

[Dad]

Well, and you see that in a practical way. By the way, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up and take the course for free that, that we're taking as well. I think the pro life movement would be a good picture of what you're talking about. Obviously, we're strongly pro life because we believe what, oddly enough, David wrote in Psalm 139, you created my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's womb.

[Zach]

Right.

[Dad]

And so we believe that. So we believe, you know, that's where life is. But there's a lot of politicians I've met in the process, and you can almost. I mean, I go to a thing, I'm in D.C. they're there, they're for my cause, which I'm glad. But then when I meet them, it's like it doesn't feel like it's real. And I won't call anybody out, but some of them just seem like they're totally doing it to advance their own political movement where they are. But I get the feeling as soon as they walk away, they could make a deal with somebody on the other side and just not publicly talk about it. So it's like you hijack these things that really matter to God just to make points with a party or with something else.

[John Luke]

Yeah. And if the point is, if it helps what I think God would want, like if it aligns with God's will, I'm super pro that. I'm not saying don't do it, but we as Christians need to be super aware of that. I'm saying, like, what is the motivation?

[Dad]

Because you can't swallow all the bulls.

[Zach]

But on the flip side. Yeah, I mean, I think that is certainly true what you guys are talking about. And that's a great point, John Luke. The response to that, that I think is equally as dangerous is the critique that Christians should not be involved in politics. You kind of hear that through the language of, like, one of the phrases that's being thrown around a lot right now is Christian nationalism. And people, like, freak out. Like, I'm not that. Whatever that is. That sounds like Adolf Hitler. I'm not that. You know, But I think that it's difficult to escape if you're a Christian. Most of the people that I see that are critiquing Christian nationalism are also promoting some form of Christian nationalism. I saw one the other day. A guy was talking about Trump's, how Trump's handling the border wall or the ice raids and all that stuff. And wherever you stand on that. That's not my point here. The point is, if you make an ethic that you're holding Trump to when it comes to how he's handling immigration, then you are, in fact, a Christian nationalist. Fine. I mean, you have your position. Like, let's discuss what that is. But if you're a Christian, everybody certainly wants to see the spirit of Christ embodied into the nation. I don't know why you wouldn't. Why would you not want Jesus permeating the polis, you know, the political, public realm? I mean, we do want him there, and we want to see, you know, a God that roots kingship and the politics in shepherding, not in domination. Or another way you could say it is that God roots. He roots the kingdom, or he roots kingship and anchors it in dominion, but not domination. And the difference between dominion and domination is domination is having rule over people, and dominion is cultivation of the earth for the beauty and the glory of God. So I think that God does want us. We see it in the story of David. And you can kind of see when David is aligning with God, then you actually see him flourishing. And then when you see him abdicating his alignment with God and instead, like, using his power to get what he wants, then you see just incredible destruction and generational curses coming to play here.

[Dad]

Well, and Don Lu talked about, when you look at the first half of this sort of Rise of David, the way I wrote jot a couple of things down is he had faithful timing in the sense that in the Goliath story, he showed faithful what I would call faithful impulsiveness. In other words, he was offended that this Philistine was talking about God. And he was like, somebody's got to do something. I'll step up. I'll do what I have to do. So there was all an impulsiveness about it, but he was faithful. And then you see him also having a faithful patience because, as you mentioned with Saul, he just, like, was so long suffering, it was like he just kept, you know, saying, he's the king. He's the king. You know, I'm here to serve him. So you see these pictures of him. It's like when you look at the Psalms, Psalm 22, David had the insight to write, arguably, and there's several Psalms that are Messianic, but one of the most Messianic psalms there is, and showing this picture of who Jesus was going to be. I mean, so he had that Holy Spirit insight and wisdom. Then you read Psalm 23. It's like this picture of the shepherd. So there's all these characters and qualities of this man that you see why God loved him so much, and you see why he loved God so much. So. But then he gets to first. I mean, two Samuel 11.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Dad]

You know, here he is.

[John Luke]

Right. Just. Yeah. Just to give an example of. Of kind of what I said earlier and what we're talking about now and on Zach's point is, the point I'm trying to make is I think that David was in God's plan and knew he was. God had a plan for him, and he was doing that. And so he didn't hold himself accountable in the same way. Like, I. What I took from this is thinking about, like, my job at camp. So, you know, I run Camp Chioka Christian Summer Camp. I feel like that's exactly where God has me. He's placed me there. He's behind me. He's put me in charge of that for a reason and the temptation for myself. And I think any leader of any organization ever is saying, oh, because I'm in charge, I can do whatever I want. But just because God's placed me as the leader doesn't mean every action is a good action. I still have to hold myself accountable and to say, okay, now he's put me in this place. What's the next right step here? Where David just completely abandoned that and stopped holding himself accountable, and the people around him, except for Nathan, stopped holding him accountable for his actions.

[Dad]

Well, and even Nathan had to be prompted by God to go talk to him. So even just like Nathan, the guy.

[Zach]

Was different or he wasn't the guy. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's the thread that's here. It really is the. The seedbed of the gospel, right, that you have this flawed individual, David. A lot of times we think about even the construction of the temple, which happens not with David, but with David's son Solomon, who actually constructs the temple and builds the temple. But we think about that temple motif, which we love the temple motif, don't we, guys?

[Dad]

I just like the way it rolls off your tongues, become an inside joke.

[Zach]

Now to the point where Christian creates AI images will never be publicized of me. And it has. He's got all these little memes he's doing.

[Dad]

He's such a techno person.

[Zach]

He did. But I think that. But the interesting thing here about this building of the temple is that David, you think he's going to be the guy to build the temple, but he's not the guy to build the temple. And there's that passage in chapter seven where essentially God says, david, you're not going to build a house for me, I'm going to build a house for you. And I think that's an important understanding of what's happening here in the story of David because it's that promise that God's going to build a house for David, which is. It sets up what, it sets up Solomon and the temple that Solomon's going to build. It sets up the exile, and then it sets up ultimately Jesus as the eternal king in the line of David. And the reason why it's the seed bed of the gospel is because what it shows is that God's covenant holds even when the kings fail. That's our story, that God's covenant holds even when we fail. So even when I'm Ravi Zacharias, even when I'm King David, even when I'm the worst of the worst, if the covenant depends on my faithfulness, then we're in trouble. And if the covenant depends on your faithfulness, then we're in trouble. But if the covenant depends on the faithfulness of God, if God's the one who's going to build the house, then we're in great shape. And I think that's, for me, that's the most encouraging thing about David's horrible fall, is that.

[John Luke]

No, I think the same thing. I think looking at David's life in these chapters in 12 Samuel as just like a story. I mean, I read, We've talked about this. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of fantasy books. And these like epic grand fantasies. And they all kind of follow the first half of David's life. But then every once in a while an author will write like a sequel that'll be the second half. Like what happens to the hero, you know, 30 years down the road. And I love those stories. I love them so much. I just read one and it was great. And you see that, like the story goes on, you know, and it's, it makes them such a more rich and complex person because you see yourself in that, like we all have rises and falls. And I think, I mean, I've seen pastors who I feel like I've been close to Christian leaders, an abnormal amount of Christian leaders who have fallen in some disastrous way. And. And I can think of one in particular who did, but is now come back and is leading a church and is doing great. And there were all kinds of consequences in his life. And I think that's what we see with David too. There were intense consequences and that God enacted in revenge for the people that David hurt. But God never left David. He still stayed even through the consequences and the revenge that God got on David for the people that he hurt. God was still with David and still gave David the opportunity to come back. And that is what Zach was saying too, is encouraging to me myself of as a leader, which hopefully, I mean, I pray I do, you know, what I can, to have a relationship with God so that I'll stay faithful. But if that happened or if someone I know that happened to, I know that that's not the end. There's another part of the story.

[Dad]

Yeah, that's good. As a reminder, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up and take the course along with us. And it's free. So it's a great deal to really get Dr. Jackson, he's a linguist and a literature guy. And I think that's what brings the study out in. The richness of it is looking and kind of. We were talking about all the different terminology changes that you don't really notice when you're just reading the story. The thing about is he a king or is he my father or is he my husband? But those things matter.

[Christian]

Yeah. When he was here, when we were doing the Exodus study, he said that first and Second Samuel was the most like literature, just rich filled books in the scripture, which was interesting. I didn't really see kind of why when he was explaining it, but now hearing him do the lesson and seeing just kind of how intricate it is. Yeah, you really see It. And yeah, in 2 Samuel 11, you know, my. Just ESV talks about at the time when kings go into battle and the Robert Arthur translation that he's using. I loved it when it said when kings sally forth. It sounded so much more just like, interesting. I was like, I like, that sounded.

[Dad]

Kind of British or something. Sally forth.

[Christian]

Well, it was like, first it was, I will be there, or howsoever I will be there. But now it's like, when kings go sally forth.

[Dad]

Well, you know, when you look at ancient warfare, because I used to love to read a lot of stuff about it, but literally they would have to wait. You know, they would just, like, because of the weather and all this. It was like they just put the war on hold. You know, we're going to put this on hold until we get better fighting weather and then we're going to get where we can get the troops where they're supposed to go. And so, you know, there were these timing issues that happened. And it just. It says it in one phrase, you're right. But it's like it was time for him to go. The key was, I've always thought about this text and I've said this so many times, because this, this, to me, job 31 and 2 Samuel 11 are two of the best references in the Bible for men especially, to, like, not take for granted who you're supposed to be as a man. Job said, I made a covenant with my eyes, not look lustfully at a girl. And he goes into his. What it means to look like a man of respect. And here we see David, basically, he shouldn't even be there. He should be with his men. I mean, he's the commander in chief. He's the king. He's like. But he can also now make a decision and just stay home and not do what he's supposed to be doing. But in that it appears to me, and I could be wrong, that he's just bored. Well, men get into the biggest trouble when we're bored. We're not productive when we're not. When we're not rich, in some kind of good spiritual situation, when we're not paying attention to our wife or our family. I always say when men are in a position, when your family is asleep but you're always awake, you're probably going to find yourself in serious trouble. That's where pornography and all these things come from. And so to me, it was just such a. It was such an obvious trap. But in the moment, he missed it, you know, because he's just out on the roof. He's looking around. I always say it's like he's channel surfing, you know, and he comes across hbo and. Oh, you know, as he's looking down now, he's just a man, he's got.

[Christian]

He catches the channel as it's something bad going.

[Dad]

Exactly.

[Christian]

He keeps going. He's like, wait. And then he goes up, wait.

[Zach]

Yeah, but if he was at work, guess what he's not doing. I think that's the big story here. Is that the big sin, the big failure. It doesn't begin with the big sin. It actually begins with the abdicating collective.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yes. Abdication of your responsibility. Not just responsibility. I had this conversation with Fred this morning because I'm taking to school every day. We have like about 15 minutes in the car every day where I'm like, I'm pounding this into his head. But like today it was basically, we were talking about, what is sin? Like, what is sin? Like, how do you define that? And he said, I don't know sin. And I'm like, I know, but what is it to sin? I was like, yeah, I know, but what is it to sin?

[Dad]

It's like, I love those good middle school answers.

[Zach]

So I'm like, dude, like, use your words, man. I'm like punching him. Like, wake up, dude. Think you know vocabulary. Try a different word. But what sin actually is, and I think this is the biblical teaching of it, it's to abdicate your responsibility, to have dominion, cultivate the earth and like, to subdue the earth. That is, we were created with an intent and purpose and design. Genesis 1:28 tells us what that is. To be fruitful and to multiply, subdue the earth, have dominion over it. And so what David is doing, he says, I'm not gonna do that. I'm actually gonna retreat back. I'm gonna chill. I'm gonna Netflix and chill, and then I'm just gonna hang out. And that was the seed. When kings go out to war, David remains in Jerusalem. It really is a symbol of just him abdicating his God given role. Not just as, I mean, like I say, it's kingship, but we're all really in the kingdom, we're all little kings. And so this is all of us. It's idleness, it's power. It's that he was vulnerable to do this in the first place.

[Dad]

Well, and look at all the opportunities he had to put the brakes on it.

[John Luke]

Oh, yeah.

[Dad]

Through these first few verses.

[John Luke]

Wait, hold on. Here's my example for all youth pastors out there that you can use for your. Your kids and your youth to cringe at. David didn't have a phone, but he had rooftops. And he was up there scrolling through the rooftops, scrolling through the rooftops until he saw something he wasn't supposed to.

[Zach]

That sounds like a guy that runs a youth camp.

[Dad]

That's good.

[Christian]

The Bible doesn't explicitly say, but I wonder if this was like, the first occurrence of him not doing that duty, because it doesn't explicitly say, but I wonder if, like, this instance was the first time he didn't go with his men into battle or if there had been like, a couple other times that he had maybe done that.

[John Luke]

Well, speaking of his men, you know, it had to be over a long period of time because when you get to second Samuel 23, which is one of my favorite chapters, and it goes on to David's Mighty Men, this kind of, like, last section, I've always loved reading that and thinking about these, like, these men who were just doing just crazy adventures.

[Christian]

What was Absalom thinking when he was like, you know, I'm like, you got David.

[Dad]

Like, what do you. So. And.

[John Luke]

And like the Miami doer, All kinds of stuff. They're doing their job while David's.

[Dad]

Exactly. And that's, of course, the. The flip here is that Bathsheba's husband is one of those guys off where he's supposed to be. And when the deception begins after the affair, he continues to do the right thing.

[Christian]

She makes the point. He was a foreigner too. Yeah, Dr. Jackson points that out.

[Dad]

Yeah.

[Christian]

He's being more faithful.

[Zach]

Yeah. Before we go there, though, I think that I was thinking about this verse in Matthew where the spirit. You kick out the spirits. Let me see where that's at. And Basically it's Matthew 12. When the unclean spirit has gone out of the person, it passes through the waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, I will return to my house, from which I came. And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes, and it brings with it seven other spirits, more evil than itself, and they entered and dwelled there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first. And so you read a verse like that, you think, what does that even mean? What does that have to do with what we're talking about here? If we think that the Christian life, or even the life that God is, even pre Christ, the life that God's called us into, it's not a defensive posture. It's not I'm going to sit back and not let sin enter into my house. I'm just going to have this empty house. It's clean, it's in order. There's no sin in it. And my job is to defend that and not let sin in. That is not the call of the gospel. And you can never defeat sin in that way. I think that's the scary part about that verse. If that's how you're pursuing it, which by the way, a lot of fundamentalist Christianity pushes towards that idea that somehow we're going to got to keep the sin out. Got to keep the sin out. That was not David's problem. David's problem was not that he failed to keep the sin out. David's problem was that he was being lazy and he had retreated. He wasn't doing the thing that he was supposed to do. His house was empty. It was in order. And that's what gave way for the demons to come in. When he should have been out there acting progressively. He should have been doing something. He should have been out there at war. That's the picture. And so there's an old saying that the best. What is it? The best defense is a good offense. Because if you're on offense, then you don't have to defend anything because you're actually on offense and you're the one that's pursuing. Which is the picture of the kingdom, by the way. It's why it's unshakable. Cause when Jesus later on says that to Peter, when he says, who do you say, I am, Peter? He says, you're the Christ. He said, that's right. I'm the Christ. And upon this rock, upon that confession, I'm gonna build my church. And the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And the reason why the gates of hell won't prevail against it is it's that hell is in the defending position. The kingdom is on the offensive position. The kingdom is moving forward. The kingdom will penetrate and bust through the gates of hell. That's what David failed to realize. David abdic that type of kingdom role. He said, I'm just going to sit back and chill.

[Dad]

And because one bad decision begets another. And that's what we see here is this series of decisions that continue to lead him down the path. And that's the flip side of it. Zach, you mentioned you're looking at it on the positive side. The negative side is sin is progressive as well. And one bad decision begets another. I just read Jersey Joe, our Old pal has written a book, and it's really good. And. And in the book, it was one thing that fascinated me because I never really knew what led him to come here and meet us. And his whole life changed. But he mentioned he was sitting in a fire station. He's a fire chief. He said, I was doing what I always did. We're downtime. I'm not on the clock, but I'm having a drink. I'm watching pornography. It's what he did. And his life was miserable and terrible. He wasn't happy, and his marriage was in a bad place. And he said, because we always think about pornography as being the thing you would click. But in this case, he's looking at his computer screen, and the unashamed podcast, for some unknown reason, pops up on his screen. And he looks over at it. He doesn't know anything about us, but there's dad, and there's a picture of dad. And he says, you know, his instinct was, I want to click on. But then he's like, pornography is what he's really watching. And he said, in a moment, I had a choice to click on this or to stay where I was. And he said, I clicked on the icon and I started listening. He said, and then the more I listened, the more convicted I got and the more I'm, who are these people? He didn't even know about the show or anything.

[Zach]

Wow.

[Dad]

And all of a sudden, it led him to this place of conviction in his own heart and life. And so I just thought it was fascinating because it was. The flip side, sometimes a good click can change your life. And in his case, he had two choices there of which path to follow. And so when I see David in this story and I see these messengers, which we'll talk about in the next podcast, because we're almost out of time, but he talks about the messengers that he's sending. He has opportunities to put a stop to this all along the way, because they're telling him she's somebody else's wife. They're giving him all the clues, like, yeah, it's the wife of Uriah, your Excellency. I mean, it's like, you see these guys, they're, like, trying to give him the out.

[John Luke]

And you in that, you see all the people around him, see him go down, and you can see them all pulling away as he gets worse. They're all like, don't talk to David. Don't say anything. Don't get away.

[Christian]

Yeah. And he knows it's going to be bad because in the letter. What does he write to Joab in the letter? He says, like, don't see this as a bad thing or something like that.

[Dad]

Yeah, yeah. The sword falls. I don't know where it falls. You know, good things happen. Bad things happen. Don't beat yourself up about this. That we're killing a man and other people while we're at it. That's that progressive nature. All right, we're out of time.

[Zach]

Well, I say this real quick before we end, though. Can you imagine, though, as you're scrolling through the rooftops, to use your analogy, and you're looking at Bathsheba, she's beautiful. She's naked. And then all of a sudden, you just glance to the rooftop next and you see Phil Robertson's face. So that probably was pretty shocking for Jersey Jo coming in for porn winds up. I mean, that'll kill the maid right there.

[Dad]

If only. If only dad had been on a rooftop, we could have changed that destiny. Zach, tell folks where to find it. As we sign off.

[Zach]

Unashamedforhillsdale.com the courses are free. We're going to come back. We're going to enter back into this probably the same passage or area of scripture next week, next Friday. So if. If you are just now joining us, go take the courses, catch up, and then meet us back here next week, next Friday. For Understanding with Hillsdale, Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.