Ep 1244 | The Robertsons Explore How Lust Turns People Into Collateral Damage

Summary

---

Podcast Summary:

Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Ep 1244
Title: The Robertsons Explore How Lust Turns People Into Collateral Damage
Date: January 9, 2026
Hosts: Al, Zach, Ed, Christian

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the biblical story of David’s fall, particularly his sin with Bathsheba and the fallout that ensues. The Robertsons engage in a candid discussion about lust, personal responsibility, generational consequences, and God's gracious path to repentance through biblical teaching. Tying in personal stories and practical reflections, the episode aims to help listeners understand how unchecked sin can cause collateral damage to more than just the individual, while highlighting the transformative hope found in true repentance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Storytime & Legacy of Hunting (00:01–08:12)

• The conversation opens with family humor about their duck hunt with Sadie, making fun of their minimal success but maximum enjoyment and Bible study.
• Notable Quote:
  “The only action was bolting the gun and then taking the shells out.” – Christian (00:38)
• They reflect on comfort versus suffering in hunting traditions, linking it to spiritual comfort in sharing time, stories, and God’s word (05:35–06:17).
• The experience of honoring their late father with a special hunt ties into the episode’s larger theme of family and generational legacy.

2. Diving Into David & Bathsheba: The Seismic Shift (08:13–16:50)

• The group transitions into the core Bible study—2 Samuel’s account of David and Bathsheba—framing it as a pivotal moment in biblical history.
• Insight: The cast discusses how misreading the story often unfairly blames Bathsheba, whereas much of the blame clearly rests on David’s actions and lustful gaze (08:53–09:54).
• Al on Responsibility:
  “It's probably just, you know, he shouldn't have been looking.” (09:15)
• The escalation of David's sin—from lustful gazing, to adultery, to conspiracy, and ultimately arranging for Uriah’s death—demonstrates the snowballing consequences of unrepentant behavior.

3. The Collateral Damage of Sin (16:51–25:36)

• The hosts analyze how David’s actions didn’t just impact himself but had fallout for Uriah, Bathsheba, Joab, the army, and ultimately the nation.
• Zach’s Reflection:
  “Out of the corruption, the pagan corruption of Israel's King David, you actually see lots of other people dying. Generational curse. That thing cuts both ways.” (15:17)
• They explore contrasting characters:
  • David: Abdicates responsibility, rationalizes sin
  • Uriah: The foreigner, embodies covenant faithfulness
  • Joab: Ambitious, self-serving commander
• David’s abdication is likened to a recurring pattern among biblical men, showing how avoidance of responsibility multiplies suffering (17:34–18:29).

4. Confrontation & Conviction: Nathan’s Parable (19:23–26:25)

• The pivotal confrontation by Nathan the prophet is unpacked, highlighting the prophetic analogy using sheep to spur David’s self-awareness.
• Notable Quote:
  “You are that man.” – Nathan, as recounted by Zach and Al (26:27, 26:37)
• The conversation highlights how we often pronounce judgment most harshly on others when covering our own sins—mirroring David’s ‘fourfold’ judgment.
• Insight: The fourfold calamity (death of David’s son, rape of Tamar, deaths of Amnon and Absalom) results directly from this self-proclaimed judgment (24:35–25:36).

5. True Repentance: Finding Hope in Psalm 51 (26:25–33:28)

• The hosts read and dwell on Psalm 51—David’s prayer of repentance—emphasizing its raw honesty, humility, and openness before God.
• Al’s Application:
  “If you can't go here, you can't heal. And then you can't help not only yourself, but anybody else...start here.” (32:51)
• The group ties this to their personal stories of failure and redemption, with Al sharing how Psalm 51 helped heal his marriage after infidelity (31:53–33:28).
• Zach’s Pastoral Insight:
  “If you think you're in a dark spot in your life and you know you've made a royal mess of it, you've hit rock bottom...that's the thing that God won't despise.” (33:10)

6. The Residual Power of Guilt & Sin’s Aftermath (36:21–48:41)

• Even after repentance, the consequences linger—guilt, family breakdowns, and national trauma continue in David’s story.
• There’s a dialogue about why David’s Psalm 51 moment doesn’t repair all the fallout—personal, political, and familial tensions continue to play out (45:09–48:07).
• Ed on David’s Acceptance:
  “You see this, I think this one, David's trust of God before and after in the fasting and partitioning God. But then this, like, acceptance that God is going to do what he wants... almost a fatalism.” (48:07–48:41)

7. Sin, Objectification, and Modern Parallels (39:41–44:59)

• Discussion of Amnon’s rape of Tamar as a tragic echo of David’s own failures—objectification, lack of restraint, and the misidentification of lust as love.
• Christian on Lust:
  “He thought he loved her, but he really just lusted after her. And, yeah, it was a downfall after that.” (40:37)
• Zach draws parallels to modern issues (misogyny, objectification, sexual sin, Andrew Tate, and the like), warning how unchecked desire leads to hatred and destruction.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The only action was bolting the gun and then taking the shells out.” – Christian (00:38)
• “You are that man.” – Nathan (recounted by Zach, 26:37)
• “If you can't go here [Psalm 51], you can't heal.” – Al (32:51)
• “Out of the corruption...you actually see lots of other people dying. Generational curse.” – Zach (15:17)
• “He thought he loved her, but he really just lusted after her...” – Christian (40:37)
• “...that's the thing that God won't despise. Forget the sacrifice...that's the sacrifice that God wants, is a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart.” – Zach (33:10)
• “Almost a fatalism—I'm going to him and he will not come back to me.” – Ed (48:08)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:01 – Opening banter, family hunting story
• 08:13 – Transition to David & Bathsheba, setup of the Bible study
• 16:51 – Exploring sin’s snowball effect and generational impact
• 19:23 – Nathan’s confrontation, "You are that man"
• 26:25 – Reading and reflecting on Psalm 51
• 32:51 – Al’s personal testimony & application of Psalm 51
• 39:41 – Tragedy in David’s family: Amnon, Tamar, Absalom
• 44:03 – Discussion on objectification, lust, and modern parallels
• 45:09 – Wrestling with lingering consequences after repentance
• 48:07 – David's acceptance and the enduring power of guilt

---

Tone & Style

The tone is candid, friendly, and deeply reflective—equal parts southern storytelling, honest family discussion, and earnest Bible teaching. The hosts blend humor with vulnerability, applying ancient biblical truths to their personal lives and modern dilemmas without glossing over painful realities.

---

Summary Takeaway

This episode takes listeners on a journey from lighthearted family banter to profound spiritual reflection. Using David’s story as a case study in the destructive power of unchecked lust and sin, the Robertsons wrestle with hard truths: that personal failures have cascading generational effects, that rationalizing sin only deepens the damage, and yet—genuine repentance, as modeled in Psalm 51, offers hope no matter the depth of brokenness. Their conversation moves seamlessly between scripture, personal testimony, and practical encouragement, making it a rich resource for anyone grappling with guilt, forgiveness, or the ripple effects of past mistakes.

---

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed for Hillsdale Friday episode. We got the crew back together again.

[Al]

Hey, let me tell you something, Zach.

[Christian]

These.

[Al]

These two, we. We talked about this on the other. On the regular unashamed. I heard about a big duck hunt that y' all went on.

[Christian]

We did.

[Al]

And Sadie participated in.

[Christian]

And by big duck hunt, you mean a large group of people. There was no ducks shot.

[Al]

There were no shotguns, were not fired at all.

[Ed]

Emphasis on the hunting. Less on the ducks.

[Christian]

The only action was bolting the gun and then taking the shells out.

[Al]

Did you get the full safety briefing before?

[Christian]

Yep, yep. Jace gave us the full safety briefing. Stone did not really say anything. And then Jace prayed, and then we saw some wood ducks.

[Al]

Jay never said another word.

[Ed]

Dude.

[Christian]

No, I don't think Jay said anything else.

[Ed]

Well, me and Jay were talking on our side.

[Christian]

It was like a 20, you know, 20 foot blind, so you felt like you were so far away from the people on the other end.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Be able to blast.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Christian]

It was Sadie's first duck hunt on Phil's land, and my brother and sister in law were driving through town, and whenever they usually come in time for Christmas, Chance will ask me to take him duck hunting. So I was going to take him hunting, and I texted Jay, and then my sister in law was like, would it be kind of. I've never been. And then Sadie was like, well, I've never been. So then they was. It was the whole thing. Then it became a girl, then it became that.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And then John Luke wanted to tag along. So we had a great time. It was awesome.

[Al]

Yeah, we had the Bible study.

[Christian]

It was an epic Bible study. Yeah. We were talking about chickens and dinosaurs and Jason's going down.

[Zach]

Don't bring that up on the screen.

[Al]

Next to the red foul.

[Ed]

It was great.

[Al]

Has y' all ever heard the red foul story before?

[Ed]

No.

[Al]

Jason's fast.

[Zach]

Well, you got to keep in mind everything that Jay. You ever hear Jace say. We've already heard it five times.

[Ed]

Well, it's funny. Oh, I said about halfway through, I said, it's just we should just recorded it and released it as a unashamed word. That's good podcast, because that's what it was. Just Sadie and Jay's talking about different things, her asking questions. It actually, since we weren't killing ducks, we needed kind of like something, you know, And Jay goes. Jay said, hey, I was thinking we need a little something to film. Jace, what was that you were telling me about the Chicken and the egg.

[Al]

Oh, boy.

[Ed]

And then Jay just turns around and that was the rest of the hunt.

[Al]

Jay, playing the role of Al, sets Jace up to talk for 30 minutes. That's exactly. That's what the unashamed podcast is. Zach. That's why we love the Hillsdale podcast, is you and I actually get a chance to talk a little bit on this show.

[Zach]

It is nice, but I'll. But I'm not gonna be hard on Jace because I'll tell you, like, you can. Like he literally, you just. I mean, if you're. Because sometimes, you know, you're. We talk a lot. I mean, we're doing this five hours a week. And so you think, man, that's. How do y' all come up with all that content? I'm like, well, we don't. I mean, it's mainly Jace, but we could. But me and Al could just prompt him. And Phil was kind of like that too.

[Al]

Yeah, that was prompt them.

[Zach]

And then they just.

[Al]

They go.

[Zach]

And our role is just kind of keep it. That's country music song. Just keep it between the lines. That's what.

[Ed]

That's what it really is. It really is amazing how he can talk.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Like that. And it's interesting.

[Al]

Well, he's a lot like my grandpa was. He either like said nothing. It just was just sitting there and everybody was like, what's wrong with him? That's my grandpa, dad's dad. Or he would not shut up.

[Christian]

That's like Willie, though.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Christian]

It's like he'll be on the couch and sometimes you'll walk in. It's like he'll act like he's never seen you in his life. Or sometimes you'll walk in and you're like best friends. It's like there's really no in between. It's either like, it's like a head nod, or it's like, hey, come sit down and let's talk about something for two hours.

[Al]

That's right.

[Christian]

It's hilarious.

[Al]

Yeah, exactly. It's a thing. And they're both like that, which is interesting. So what did your brother and sister in law think about the whole experience? Because, I mean, you didn't shoot anything. But did they enjoy it?

[Christian]

Oh, they loved it. Yeah, they're both.

[Al]

Yeah. Cause he's a pitcher, right?

[Christian]

He's a pitcher. Yeah.

[Al]

Major league.

[Christian]

He's in double A. Yeah. Not majors. He wishes he was in the majors.

[Al]

Okay. He's in the 60s.

[Christian]

He's in double A. Yeah. He's doing really well. Um, but yeah, they they loved it. He's. He called me yesterday because somehow from duck hunting, he now wants to get into archery, which I don't. I don't know where that came from, but he's calling me about now. He doesn't want to shoot there all night. Yeah, well, there's really not good duck hunting in Florida, you know, so he. I think he somehow thinks in his mind, too that there's. That there's good deer hunting in northwest Florida, which there's really not.

[Zach]

But he loves, like, if you like deer the size of a small dog, you're in the right spot.

[Christian]

Yeah, that's true. Swamp dude, you gotta. You gotta be a good shot if you're gonna live there. But, you know, he loves it. They come in town for Christmas every year, and he always asks me to take him. And no, she loved it. They cu. Sadie had. Because this was just kind of funny from. She was like, all the blinds I've ever sat in have been like, you know, fake duck blinds, like.

[Al]

Yeah, they're like.

[Christian]

They're not real. You know, they're like, yeah.

[Ed]

I mean, real, but not.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah. It's saying like, yeah, it's like in a random place.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Christian]

So she was like, this is actually what it feels like just to be like, in an actual duck blind. And the one we were sitting in was also, like, way nicer than most of the ones that people would ever sit in. So her first experience was a little more of a luxury duck blind. But, yeah, we didn't shoot, which is.

[Al]

What it should be. It's the way it was like that years ago. And then they went through about a 10 year period, which basically got me out of duck hunting, where we went minimalism. And we sat on these scaffolds without comfort and without heat and without food. And for whatever reason, dad and Jase had gotten into this mode that we have to prove our manhood again. And it was the most miserable. I was like, this is why I quit hunting years ago. Why can't we just be comfortable? Like, halftime. We're not even shooting anything. Like the experience you guys have. It's a lot easier for me to have a good Bible discussion if I'm warm, right? If I'm full, if I'm drinking coffee, you know, it's like. It's like this. Like we're having a.

[Christian]

You know, don't force yourself to be miserable.

[Al]

No. Why would you do that? And so we got out. We went through this pier where we go, oh, we got our boys. We got to get out Here, where the ducks are. And I was like, but we're miserable. It's no fun. That's why I didn't deer hunt, because dad would sit me on a tree on a board about as wide as my butt, and I would sit there and freeze to death and see nothing, you know, for hours. Then he'd be like, well, I mean, that deer crossed down there. And I was like, yeah, I was shivering in coldness. And I didn't. I couldn't see anything more than 10ft away. Then I would get chewed out for not, like hunting. And it was like, you have made this miserable.

[Zach]

You didn't know your role. Your role was just to be there to increase the limits of what he.

[Al]

Could kill so the two could be killed and we could take them out together. That's exactly what it was. And now I can say all that because dad's gone, you know, statute of limitations has run out. Well, all right. So we. I guess we got to get back to our text, but I was interested to hear how the hunt went. That was really great. No, she loved it.

[Christian]

She wants to go back. So.

[Al]

Awesome. Exciting. Well, and we went this year, opening day, the four brothers and in honor of dad. So it's kind of similar to Sadie's longing of. And I never knew she. That she never went with dad. But I. I hadn't hunted in four or five years. And we did. I sent a little challenge out this summer to my brothers. And I was like, look, I think it'd be really cool if we all went open. Today is the first day dad won't be in the blind 70 something years. And so I thought, it'll be a cool thing. So I didn't. Nobody answered, of course. Nothing back. Crickets and until the week of the hunt. And then I heard everybody was going. So it turned out really cool. We were like. We enjoyed ourselves because Willie, big time to see. Had to go flip a coin at the ball game or something. He said, well, I can't stay but an hour, you know, or whatever. But during the couple hours we were there, it was fun again. It was like. It reminded me when we were young. Yeah.

[Christian]

And it was so cool that Jay shot a bandit duck.

[Al]

Yeah. The very first one. Which we took that as a dad homage that somehow from heaven he was. He guided us a band for the first duck kill. So it was really cool. All right, so back to second Samuel is. Which is where we're at. We. We left off. Even though the. The Dr. Jackson kind of moves on in the lessons we Felt like there was so much here. We wanted to discuss this more kind of before we moved on, because we had just gotten into the. The Fall of David in the last podcast. Because this. This is a seismic shift. Wouldn't you call it that? I mean, at what happens going forward.

[Zach]

Right.

[Al]

I mean, nothing is the same after this incident that happens, and we just kind of scratched the surface. If you want to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com you can sign up. You can take the courses with Dr. Jackson. They're free. And then follow us along as we talk about them on the podcast. So we got to this place, and so David, he's on the rooftop, what you call it scrolling rooftops. And he sees Bathsheba, she's bathing, and a lot of people have, like, cast dispersions on her. Like, it was her fault. But, you know, like, she's, like, doing this on purpose. I don't believe that. It doesn't seem that way at all. It's probably just, you know, he shouldn't have been looking. But anyway. But I've heard people, like, say she's the bad person because, you know, she should have been bathed in some other place. But that's almost like saying, you know, because people are going to be dressed, and modestly, I have a right to look at anything I want to. No, I mean, Job said, right. Don't do that.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Al]

You made the covenant, Right.

[Ed]

We've been to. In Israel, when you go to where the castle was, or whatever it's called, and you look out, you can see every single rooftop.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Ed]

So it's not like, where else would she be?

[Christian]

I think it was maybe a cultural thing. I think that was where they did that.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Christian]

But I could be wrong.

[Al]

Well, and so he sends. He sends Messengers and. And Dr. J mentioned that, though the idea was, is that he's, like, having these intermediaries set this up. And later, of course, he's going to be the messenger of bad things. And he's. And they're kind of like, coming back and like. Well, he's somebody's wife, you know, like, trying to, I think, give him, like, road signs. Like, this is not a good idea, but nobody wants to actually say it. So she's brought to the temple. I mean, to the temple. She's brought to the palace, and he sleeps with her, and she gets pregnant. Her husband, Uriah, we mentioned, who is a foreigner, that he's a Hittite, is all fighting wars, which is where David's supposed to be. And so David decides he's going to cover it up. And like any scandalous act, every action then gets worse. And so he brings Uriah home. First idea is like, well, he'll just like, send him on down to the house. He'll sleep with her. And then it's covered up because he'll think it's his gift. Well, he won't do that because he's a man of honor. So he slept outside the house. And so then David brings him in and gets him drunk because it's like, well, drunk people. Surely he'll go home and find his wife then. Nope. Even drunk, he did the right thing and he slept out with his servants. And so David now takes the last step. And this is like, to me, it shows you how corruption works. Because now David almost feels like, well, I can't do anything else, so I just have to kill him. I mean, think about where the. Where we've started and where we're at now. And. Well, and he sends with him to his own death warrant.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

With him back to the front line.

[Ed]

Right.

[Al]

To be killed. So that's what happens.

[Ed]

Which.

[Christian]

Which earlier, Dr. Jackson making the point that that's what. That's what Saul was doing to David.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Christian]

Now it's kind of the reversal of that with David and Uriah.

[Zach]

Well, Ed, you also have the reasoning that is given for Uriah saying he's like, I don't want to come home and hang out here. He's like. He says something like, the Ark of the Covenant is in the tent. It's in the booth. And the point is that we can't lose the Ark. Right. Because that had already happened as we've gone through this David series, You remember back in the first few episodes, we were talking about how when Jesse was running the temple and his sons were eating off the fat of the temple, they were, you know, and then they. They actually lost the Ark of the Covenant. I mean, they literally so many. They stole it. It was stolen from them. And. And under his reign, under his leadership.

[Al]

Eli, not Jesse.

[Zach]

I'm sorry, yeah. What did I say? Jesse? Yeah, Eli. Sorry, Eli. And when Eli hears about it, he falls back, and that's when he breaks his neck and dies. So now you see, like. Like, you should take this very serious. This Ark of the Covenant. This is, you know, the very essence of the presence of God amongst his people. And so David doesn't really have a regard for this, but Uriah the foreigner does. And so it's like a double conviction, like what David should be concerned about. He's like, I'm on the roof, I'm hanging out, whatever. I'm not really worried about it. My guy's got this. He's not invested at all. And Uriah is vested in this whole thing more than David is. And it should be the other way around. David should be the one who's ultimately vested in this scenario. And I think that's why he's just like, I gotta dispose of this conviction. I gotta get rid of this and the consequences that are coming. I have to manipulate the situation, control it, and make sure that it turns out that the way that I want.

[Al]

It to turn out. Well, you said in the last podcast, the quote you and Jill were talking about, that the more you give in to Satan, the more things you'll do you never thought you were capable of doing. And that's what we're seeing here. You're right. I mean, David has seen all this play out, and yet he's so driven now by circumstance that he's just making one bad call after the other. It reminded me of back when we did Genesis and we talked about Joseph. And you remember in Joseph, in Genesis 39, when Joseph has been sold into slavery and he's in Potiphar's house and Potiphar's wife is trying to get him to have sex with her. And he makes that statement. First he says, well, your husband's put me in charge of everything. But then he says, how could I do such a thing as sin against God? In other words, I could be led by circumstances here and justify sleeping with you. Because you're the boss. You're the boss's wife. But he says, how can I do this against God? Which shows you there was a character there that said, I'm going to do the right thing. And then it winds up getting him thrown into prison, you know, and it seems like, man, what happened? I made the right decision, but I wound up in a wrong place. But we know his character is going to build all through that process. That's what David has lost here.

[Zach]

And going back and going back to the original intention that God has for man is Genesis 1:28, to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth, have dominion over it, fill the earth, you know, go reproduce and fill the land. Out of Joseph's decision to not sleep with Potiphar's wife, he ends up becoming the second in command of all of Egypt. And so when his family finally comes, that goes on for several hundred years. The lineage that happened from that one decision but by the time you get to the story of Exodus, when you get to the first eight verses in the story of Exodus, it's the reason why Pharaoh got mad is one, he forgot about Joseph, but he looked at the lineage of Joseph and it says that they were fruitful, that they multiplied and that they filled up the land. So they actually were doing the thing that was commanded in Genesis 1:28, that came out of the lineage of Joseph's obedience. And then what you see here is out of the corruption, the pagan corruption of Israel's King David, you actually see lots of other people dying. Generational curse. And so that thing cuts both, that sword cuts both ways. And again, I want to mention it, this is the irony of it, is that Uriah was a foreigner. He's embodying the faithfulness, Israel's covenant loyalty. And then David, who is actually Israel, is embodying the pagan idolatry. So you're seeing the flip here. Right?

[Ed]

Right. You actually see three different views on, I would say, God's will. In this scenario. You have David, who's the. I don't care. Like he's. I'm not going to war. I'm staying here. You've got Uriah, who's doing the right thing, who cares deeply about the Ark of the Covenant, who cares about this war and Israel's expansion and that this is part of what God has him doing. Then you have Joab, who is also at war in doing his job, but for his own personal conviction. Like he doesn't care about the Ark of the Covenant. He just cares about his own power and being able to do.

[Al]

And he's going to show that his whole life, Right?

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

And his whole career.

[Christian]

Yeah. He's not a dude you want to cross.

[Al]

No.

[Ed]

Which I love that about him. One more thought on David on this part is you see a theme that we've seen all the way from Adam through every, basically every man up until this point that we've talked about in the study of abdicating his responsibility. David pushing the blame to someone else, where he screws up with Uriah and he passes it on to Joab to solve by killing Uriah. Then whenever Uriah dies, David's like, wasn't me. He died in the wall. People die in war. Just sword falls where it falls where it falls. Yeah. Joab really. Joab did it. Like he just pushes that blame and doesn't take responsibility for his own actions. Even in him doing wrong. He doesn't even do the wrong thing himself.

[Al]

Well, and then other People, to Zach's point, died. And so. And so now all of a sudden, the consequence, the collateral damage is, is getting larger and larger. And then David so flippant about it. So time. So just fast forwarding time goes by here. Enough time where she has. She's pregnant, remember? And then she has the baby. And David's still just living the lie. You know, he's like, well, we got that dealt with. I mean, he's fully, you know, committed to where he's at. He has a child. She's now moved to the palace, so she's become one of his wives. And then all of a sudden, it's like God's like, nope, we're not just sweeping this one under the rug. And so he goes to Nathan the prophet, and he says, here's what you do. And so the rest of chapter 11 is him basically saying, here's the story that you're going to tell.

[Zach]

Here's the confrontation.

[Al]

Here's the confrontation.

[Zach]

You're going to go confront this guy. And I think we've got to keep this in mind. We read the story of David. We read this whole passage here, and we think that this was like something that was maybe like the architecture of this was communicated, like in David's mind. Like, David's like, said, oh, crap, I made a mistake. Okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to send him out there. The scripture actually gives no indication that David ever communicated any of this plan that he had outside of his own thought life. And so I don't think David went to anybody and said, hey, I got Bathsheba pregnant, but guess what, she's married. So I gotta send Uriah. I think this was all an internal plan that he had in his own mind. This is his own. So what we're reading here, in my opinion, is we're actually reading this with hindsight 20 20, but we're reading in how he rationalized his own sin. But this is what we do, right? Like, we get in trouble and then we start coming up with these scenarios in our own mind. And I think that's what we're reading here, by the way. If you want to jump in this course with us, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and you guys can sign up. We're taking the David course absolutely free for you guys, want you to be a part of this with us. But I think what's happening here is he's going to have this confrontation with Nathan, and when Nathan comes in and tells him the story which is a story of confrontation. David does not receive it as that. And I think he didn't receive it as talking about himself because I think he actually had convinced himself that he didn't do anything wrong. He was just. To your point, John, it's just sending a guy to war. People died in war all the time. You know, it's what we do, by the way. He's just rationalizing his sin, convincing himself of his own sin. So anyways, well.

[Al]

And so what happens is. And. And I love it when the preacher's the good guy in a story, since I was one for so long. But. But Nathan, who's the preacher, does what preachers do. He came up with a great analogy and story that he knew how Dave was going to respond. I mean, you know, like, so he tells the story. There's this rich guy, you know, he's got all this stuff. Anything he needs, he's got. I mean, pens full of sheep everywhere. But he looks down and he sees this one guy with this one little lamb. And he decides, you know what? I got some friends coming over. And I'm paraphrase, of course. And he says, as a friend's coming over, but I want that lamb. I want that lamb that belongs to that man because it's all he has. But I'm big shot. And so he gets that lamb and he slaughters it and he feeds his family and he leaves this guy with nothing. And. And of course, David hears the story. And again, not looking from the lens of a shepherd. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which I thought was very powerful. And what he says in response with this four foe, he said he'll pay back four times is he's now pronouncing his own judgment.

[Christian]

Yeah. That was crazy.

[Al]

On himself. I had never heard that. Yeah. Which was very powerful.

[Christian]

Yeah. Like he's being prophetic about what's going to happen to him without even realizing it.

[Ed]

And you know what I never thought about until right this very second, he might have even said this. I just missed it. That David was a shepherd and Nathan was talking about sheep.

[Al]

Yeah. Which is why he probably used the analogy.

[Christian]

That's why he used the analogy. I know.

[Ed]

I'm not even saying that it's like, oh, wow.

[Al]

That's just. I just did not realize that.

[Christian]

No, he kind of hinted at that in the lecture and. Yeah. I had never thought about it from the standpoint of like. Yeah. Him using the thing that got David to his position to kind of. Yeah. Like.

[Al]

Well, even. Even Dr. J did the. When he gets to the very end of David's life. Remember in First Kings 2, the redemption part. Yeah, yeah. When the redemption part. And it's. It's like the. The young virgin girl comes in. And in a way, it's kind of a sad thing because, like, here's this once powerful man that's so cold he can't even keep warm. But the idea was he used that phrase in his lap. Just same one was used here. And I wouldn't have known that if it wasn't for the other guy's translation that that lamb was all this guy had. And so it sat in his lap. And so that was the idea that the redemption had come forward.

[Christian]

That was really cool.

[Al]

Yeah. Which was really good, I thought.

[Zach]

Yeah. Well, when you think about those. When you think about when you've probably been the most harsh in your life, Anytime I get, like, really harsh about somebody and I want to pronounce a fourfold judgment, I always take a step back. I'm like, oh, wait, I might want to look at myself right now. Because a lot of times when I'm in my own sin, that's when I'm the most judgmental and harsh against other people, is when I'm in my own sin. And I think we see that pattern play throughout our whole lives. The people who are the hardest on sinners, a lot of times it comes out later on, and you're like, yep, they were caught into something. And a lot of times it's the exact same thing that they're reprimanding others for. We were involved in the church in Florida, in Gainesville, Florida, real big church. And the pastor of the church would just. I mean, he would just Lamblast people for sexual sin. And look, I believe we should be teaching on sexual sin, but he would just lamblast people for. Just beat people over the head and make people just feel so guilty. And. And it came out later that that preacher was actually taking advantage of a lot of the young men in the college ministry of this church. It was a huge campus ministry, and the church, by the way, swept that under the rug. They never dealt with it. But it's interesting how that plays out. And I think that David is just. Again, this is what sin does. You start casting out judgment when you yourself are the one that's guilty. And in the case of David, it was a fourfold judgment that unfolds later. And one, David's infant son dies as a result of this sin. Two, you got the rape of Tamar, and then Amnon's death And then Absalom's death. So you had that fourfold judgment unfolding that David pronounced really on himself.

[Al]

That's right.

[Ed]

Right.

[Al]

And he says, just because Nathan tells him what you just said in chapter 12. And then David says the words and he means them. I mean, I fully believe now he realizes, he says to Nathan in verse 13, I have sinned against the Lord. So for the first time, it's like, okay, I get it. Now. What's interesting is Nathan says, the Lord has taken away your sin, which is such a powerful thing to think about that, that he's not going to die, which he should have, like, under the law of Israel, he deserved death for what he did. But he said, the Lord has taken away your sin. You're not going to die. But as Zach said, your child will. So I want to. I want to flip over to Psalm 51, because I. I don't want us to leave here, right. Without talking about this, because we got.

[Zach]

To have the hope, right?

[Al]

Yeah, you got to have the hope.

[Zach]

Because the indictment was that famous line that. That you are that man. Yes, because he's like, get him. And, And Nathan's like, you are that man.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so that's the conviction that we all feel, right, I am that man. Like that. Like, this is where the God, this is the gospel. You come to the end of yourself and the Holy Spirit says to you, you are that man. And then you realize, oh, man, I am that man. What do I do then? And that folds right into Psalm 50.

[Al]

Zach, you know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of in our study, in John, on the regular, unashamed, when Pilate parades Jesus out after he's been beaten and tortured now, and he's wearing the mock robe and the crown of thorns, and he says, here is the man. He says that phrase, here is the man. And N.T. wright had talked about that was more than just him saying a statement. He was saying, here's the one, the suffering Lord for all people. And so I think about that with that, you are that man. Who then needs that man, you know, which is, which is so powerful. So let me, let me. I want to read Psalm 51 because it's so powerful. And we know from the, from the little, you know, heading of it that this, he wrote this right as we're in this study. Like, this is that moment where he says, I have sinned against the Lord. And he realized it. And here's his response to God. This is why the man had a heart for God and God had A heart for him, because he could write something like this. He says, have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love, according to your great compassion. Blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions and my sin is always before me against you and you only have I sin and done what is evil in your sight. And it reminds me so much of that Joseph quote, you did this to God first. You are right. You are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. And now he said, these are what I call the surely questions. Because he's so overwrought, he uses this hyperbolic language. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. I mean, he feels so rotten and so bad. Surely you desire truth in the inner parts. You teach me wisdom in the inmost place. Cleanse me with hyssop and I will be clean. Wash me and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness. Let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Now remember, he hasn't even lived the consequences yet when he's writing this and he's going to be crushed even further. Hide your face from my sins. Blot out my iniquity. And then here's the beautiful part about that. Redemption and renewal. Create in me a pure heart, O God. Renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your holy spirit from me, which is so rich that he would realize the power of the Holy Spirit. Restore to me the joy of your salvation. Grant me a willing spirit to sustain me. Then I will teach transgressors your ways. So in other words, now it's not out of power, he's saying, but it's out of failure, out of testimony.

[Zach]

They were saved. They overcame the accusations of the evil and of the accuser by the blood of the Lamb, Revelation 12, and by the word of their testimony. This is a foreshadowing of how we do that. He is saying, my testimony of failure and your covenant faithfulness. That will be how I share your ways.

[Al]

Yes. And don't forget. Unashamedforhillsdale.com Sign up, take the course. They're free. And then you can join us on the podcast. Then I will teach transgressors your ways. Sinners will turn back to you. Save me, O blood. Save me from blood guilt, O God, the God who saves me. And my tongue will sing of your righteousness. Oh, Lord, open My lips and my mouth will declare your praise. And I think about that when he built that last altar, remember at the end, and he was like saying, put this on me. You know, it just. It shows you his heart. Oh, Lord, open my lips. I would declare your praises. You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it. You do not take pleasure and burn offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. O God, you will not despise man. If Israel could have learned this lesson throughout its history. In your good pleasure, make Zion prosper, build up the walls of Jerusalem. So now he's thinking nationally again. And then there will be righteous sacrifices whose burnt offerings to delight you. Then bulls will be offered to your altar. So he goes back into the system. But I just love this text for so many different reasons. One is it gives you hope in the worst of things, because the rest of the way here we're going to talk about David's life is pretty much all bad. I mean, so many bad things are going to happen. And yet he shows you that glimpse. And to your point, Zach, when he wrote this, this is just his heart to God. I mean, you know, this is just him putting pen to paper. This is how I feel in this moment. And I think it's so powerful. And of course, personally, it means a lot to me because Lisa and I went through a major downfall in our marriage. And she had an affair. And obviously it was just man brokenness. We felt like this moment, you know, and I at the time was preaching, working for the church, and I didn't know was going to happen. But this Psalm is really what delivered her. And I don't. Somebody suggested she. She read it, and then she read it every day for weeks and the other Psalms and Proverbs as well. And she said. Now she says it was the nourishment that brought her back, like, because she had been in such a desolate place and allowed herself to make those decisions we're talking about which almost ended our marriage and could have ended her life because she had suicidal thoughts. So now for the last 25 years, we've helped so many people come back from infidelity. And guess where we point them to every time? Psalm 51, that's where you start. You start here, because if you can't go here, you can't heal. And then you can't help not only yourself, but anybody else. And so when people don't have a Psalm 51 moment after they've had this falling of where you fall it's hard to ever find your way back to God. So that's why I wanted to make sure we mentioned this and read it, because this is the hope that the bigger picture always gives us. Because I know there's people listening that maybe in the middle of something right now that's like, really bad, and you're thinking, there's no way out for me, yes, there is. It's called repentance. It's called loving God and saying, I messed up. But anything can be fixed. Because remember, God forgave David his sin. And so even though there's consequences, you can be forgiven.

[Zach]

Yeah, I think it's starts with the reception of the conviction from the Holy Spirit that says, you are the man or you are that woman. And so you see that in yourself. But I think some of our Western categories for atonement may limit us from kind of seeing, I think, the bigger picture here. Because as you read this, particularly in Psalm 51, I mean, there's a little nugget in here that I think is we have to take note of which he says here, after all of this, I mean, he's admitting the guilt of bloodshed, because he says, deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed. So he's admitting the fact that he was not just an adulterous man who slept with a man's wife, he murdered that man and others. And others. So he is recognizing the guilt of bloodshed, and he's asking God, deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed. So when you think about, what have I done in my life? How bad has it been? Maybe it's an affair, maybe it's pornography addiction. Maybe it's. I don't know what it is. Maybe you've stole money from someone. Whatever it is, whatever the thing is, maybe you've murdered somebody. Whatever it is, it's deliver me from the guilt of. Fill in the blank, O God. You are God, my savior. And my tongue will sing of your righteousness, not my own. I'm going to sing of your righteousness. Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praises. And this is the part. You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it. And you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. I think so many times we think, man, I got to somehow pay a penance for this. And the way that we view atonement is we think this is. I got to make sure that I'm paying for whatever the thing I did. And I got to bring the sacrifice. I got to bring the burnt offerings. And the point here Is God doesn't delight in sacrifice or burnt offerings or that's what David said he would bring. But my sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart, you, God will not despise. I love that. Because if you think, what do you. What do I have? If you think you're in a dark spot in your life and you know you've made a royal mess of it, you've hit rock bottom, whatever the thing is. And you're like, what do you got? Well, I have a very broken spirit. I got nothing. I have a broken heart. That's all I got. I mean, I got nothing except my failure. And so the text is reading here. The psalmist is basically saying, that's the thing that God won't despise. Forget the sacrifice. He said, come to me with that level. If you come into my presence and you're just like, all I got is just mess, then God promises right here that he will not despise, that he will accept that that's the sacrifice, that. That's the sacrifice that God wants, is a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart. So I want to live in that space where that's what I'm kind of leaning into. That's encouraging to me.

[Al]

And then once you're healed, David shows the pathway, I want to share that with other people. I want to point people to what's right. Which is why that Lisa and I are currently in discussions and working on a script for a movie about her story in our life. And I got to tell you, it's not pleasant. It's not pleasant to go back there. 25 years of memory that God has worked hard to heal us from. But we have to tell the story because there's too many people that need to hear the story. So I wound up talking to dad about when we made the blind because he was reluctant. He said, al, would you want the worst part of your life on a movie screen? I said, not particularly, unless it would help other people find who Jesus is. And I said, dad, this movie is going to help people find Christ. It's just another artistic way to tell this good news story. And he said, do you think it'll win some people? I said, I know it will, and of course it has. And so dad went along, well, guess what? Now I'm in the same position. So I had to listen to my own words. Thanks a lot, Nathan. You know, because now it's like, okay, do you want the worst part of the movie screen? Not really. But it's going to help people. So we're going to do this movie and we're going to tell the story.

[Zach]

I love making movies about other people's sin. So if anybody's open for that, Zach's.

[Al]

Just the Cecil DeMille of these stories out here. I said to make a movie, a television movie, you had to do something really bad or really good or both. And so that's what happened with us. All right, so. So here's. So next, what happens to kind of advance the story, because the next few chapters we start to see things unravel. And I think it's directly linked to this. I mean, there's some blended issues because, like, there's kids, he's got sons by different wives, and so one is a sister to this one, but not that one. So we got all these people under the same house. But now I think once this scandal is out and David now, you know, this has become a public matter now, I think, you know, they all lost respect for him. I think that began the unraveling. It's just my guess, I don't know. But certainly there's some intrigue because we get to 2 Samuel 13 and we see in the course of time is the way it's written. We see Amnon, who's one of David's son, who falls in love with Tamar, who's the beautiful sister of Absalom, another son of David. So you see, kind of you got the blended, like wives. And anytime this happens, remember Jacob's life, we always have all kinds of chaos. And that's what's happening here. And so he's fallen in love with his half sister of sorts, I guess, depending on how it is in this family. And. But so that everybody knows this is. But he could marry her, I mean, if you wanted to. And so that's what. When, when it gets down to this deception. He lures her into his room claiming to be sick, but on the advice of some other messenger, with David's help, he gets her in the room and he's going to rape her. And so she's like, no, this is terrible. Don't do this. This is the wrong thing with Israel. But of course, he's so driven in lust in the moment that he rapes her. And then he hates her. He hates her more than he ever wanted her.

[Christian]

Loved her. He made that point of how, like, language wise, that was. So it said the hate that he hated her with was greater than the love they loved her with. But he was honing in on that of how. Just stylistically, how. That was such a. Like a strong point that he made. But. Yeah, but you see that with sin and with lust. Like, you know, you convince yourself of something, and he was kind of pointing out the shame that he probably felt from that. And I think we've all, in some capacity felt that, you know, you've gone too far in a certain situation and you had maybe some convictions leading up to it, and you ended up doing it. And the guilt you feel and the shame you feel, yes, it makes you embarrassed. It makes you. But, yeah, you feel like that's the effects of sin. It convinces you that this is a good thing because he thought he loved her, but he really just lusted after her. And, yeah, it was a downfall after that.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's a really, really good point. Christian. That the reason why that this happens, because you see this in all kinds of movies too, by the way, right? You had the scene where there's the. The pursuit of the. It's one of the things with, like, misogynist men. They pursue these women, and then when they conquer them, they hate them. And it's the reason why. It's like the Andrew Tate scenario, right? You objectify the woman. And so when you objectify the woman, then when you acquire the object that doesn't fulfill you, then you disdain. You have disdain and hatred for that woman because to you, she's an object that never fulfilled on the promise that she was supposed to deliver for you. And by the way, go to unashamedforhealthdale.com you guys can sign up and take this course for free with us. We're in the story of David. So I think that's a really, really good point. There's another story in the Bible, in Ezekiel that has a picture that's similar to what you just said. It's the picture of these two sisters, that. It's the story of Israel, but it's the picture of these two sisters and. And they lust after these Assyrian lovers. And I mean, the language is extremely graphic. Like, it's. I mean, it's very, very graphic.

[Al]

You don't hear a lot of Bible lessons on that particular text.

[Zach]

I mean, you don't.

[Ed]

It does give middle school boys one of the best verses to write.

[Christian]

The donkey one.

[Al]

Oh, yeah.

[Zach]

He already knows. Yeah. If you're a middle school boy, you know this verse. I used to in church. I would send it. I remember I told my mom, I said, I wrote on a piece of paper. I said, this verse has really inspired me. And I wrote down Ezekiel 23:20. And I handed it to her. So my mom opens up the Bible, she's like. Cause she's just proud of her son and she's. Oh my goodness, you are so. She's just like pinching me like I.

[Ed]

Pulled that same move.

[Al]

Oh yeah. Trying to look all the classic.

[Zach]

But the story is interesting because it makes the point that you just made. You get the picture of these beautiful kind of Virginia. I mean, that's the language that you're getting with these young girls, these two young virgins. And within the story it just turns into the end of it is the Assyrian lovers that they lusted after and that lusted after them end up conquering them and brutally murdering them out of that disdain and that hatred. And they just dismembered them and sent their body parts to the four corners of the earth. And so you read this and really is a picture of how sin works. I mean, it is. This is how it works. And so he is actually living out the natural consequences of sin. Because what it does is it takes the desire and it terminates the desire on itself. And when the desire terminates on itself, instead of pushing through toward God, then sexuality, for example, it becomes a self gratifying thing and it ends in this type of despair and hatred and death. When sexuality, on the other hand, is understood in the context of which God gave it to us, then it actually results in the procreation of new life and generational wealth and generational families and grandkids and kids and family coming around the dinner table together. And it's something that's absolutely beautiful that flows down generation to generation to generation. So you're seeing that interrupted right here with the very nature of sin.

[Ed]

One of the ironies of that too is that Tamar is doing actually does the right thing, which I thought that was so powerful on Reddit. She says even worse than the rape, than the physical act, is that you are objectifying me, is you saying and rejecting me.

[Al]

Because he could still marry her, right? He could still do the right thing.

[Ed]

Even she understands that there's the physical act that is terrible. But even worse than that is that character, that the idea that he sees her as an object that can send her away, that doesn't care about her.

[Al]

What did Alter's version say? Get this creature out of here. It didn't even. It wasn't the NIV says woman, but in the closest original language, get this creature out. This is not even a person anymore. It's like some kind of, you know, monster. And he's the monster, you know, I mean, by what he's done to him.

[Ed]

And she's even willing to, in her mind, do the right thing and stick with him and say, you've done this to me. This is where I am now. I'm going to stay. And he says, get out.

[Christian]

Yeah, I want to. I want to get Yalls take on this. Because it was. I hadn't thought about this, but I was just. I just had this thought in the moment, right? Because you have David Bathsheba, awful. You have Psalm 51, which is this repentance, resilience, you know, David on this upward trajectory, it seems like. But then you have the rapid Tamar, you have Absalom, and he kind of retreats back to this passive character. And Dr. Jackson kind of made the point of David from a human level is. Is realizing that all these things are happening because of his mistake, right? So which you can see, you know, I mean, at least in my life, I've seen the Psalm 51 moment, and then it's almost like a insecure, almost like a weird feeling of like all this is happening because of your disobedience for something. But I thought it was interesting that you had the Psalm 51 moment and David, you know, is repentance and this prayer. But then it's, you know, you kind of see the political, personal stuff again with Absalom and Joab and then with. With Tamar and Amnon. But I wonder why the Psalm 51 moment wasn't like a catalyst to kind.

[Ed]

Of restore, okay, Restore that. I was about to bring this up because I have a thought on this, and we're about to be out of time. And so I want to read this verse and then maybe we can pick this up on the next one, because I think this is a good transition. So this Psalm 12:13, when the child dies. I mean, this is just incredibly sad. And also one of the most powerful verses I think, in this, and I've read. So, you know, he says this, Nathan, God, David says, or Nathan says, you know, David, you won't die. David is fasting for, you know, the child is, you know, wanting him to live. And then he gets to this point where the child dies. And David stops fasting, goes to eat. And it says, and the servant said to him, what is this thing you have done for the sake of the living child? You fasted and wept, but when the child was dead, you rose and ate food. And he said, and David said, while the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. For I thought, who knows? The Lord may find favor in me and the child will live. And now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I'm going to him and he will not come back to me. And you see this, I think this one, David's trust of God before and after in the fasting and partitioning God. But then this, like, acceptance of that God is going to do what he wants to do. And after that, this moment, this, like, almost kind of giving up of David.

[Al]

Almost a fatalism.

[Ed]

Almost. Yeah, like I'm going to him and he will not come back to me. On one sense, it's a hopeful idea of, like, I'll see my child again. But on the other sense, you see that play out of him just giving up from that point, Right? He's just seeing, like, the end at this point and basically just waiting to die. And then you see this. He just can't get his act back together afterwards, even though God has done his part and forgiven him.

[Al]

That's really good. In fact, we'll have to pick it up next time. But this idea of the power of guilt is very, very strong. And that's going to kind of lead the rest of the way. So we're out of time for this session. Be sure and go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up to take the courses. They're free. You're really going to enjoy them. We're loving them. I'm learning a lot from this, and hopefully we're sharing a lot of good stuff with you as well. So we'll see you next week on the podcast.

[Zach]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up at the no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.