Ash Brandin: Managing Screen Time | Season 6, Episode 4

Summary

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Unbabbled Podcast: Ash Brandin – Managing Screen Time

Season 6, Episode 4 – Released December 13, 2023
Host: Stephanie Landis (with guest host Molly Weisselberg)
Guest: Ash Brandin (The Gamer Educator)

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Episode Overview

This episode features educator and middle school librarian Ash Brandin ("The Gamer Educator") discussing how families can manage screen time and gaming, especially for neurodiverse children or those with learning or communication differences. Ash shares insights on reframing the screen time debate, strategies for digital literacy and emotional regulation, and practical tips for parental controls and online safety.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ash Brandin’s Journey (04:00–06:30)

• Ash’s professional and personal background with gaming, starting as a music teacher during the Guitar Hero craze, noticing the gap in research on video games as learning tools.
• Developed "The Gamer Educator" platform to bridge conversations between educators, parents, and caregivers on healthy screen use.
• Quote:
  “It’s been kind of organic…building the plane while you’re flying it…but exciting.” – Ash [06:30]

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2. Reframing the Binary: Good vs. Bad Screens (07:26–11:01)

• The screen time debate often lacks nuance: “It isn’t helpful…if all I do is show up and say, well, it’s either good or it’s bad.” – Ash [07:27]
• Binary thinking pressures families—either shunning screens or overusing them—without recognizing real-world family needs.
• Recognizes ableism underlies anti-screen arguments, ignoring how screens provide access, engagement, and communication tools for disabled and neurodiverse children.
• Quote:
  “Ableism is right underneath that argument... There are many people who use screens for many, frankly, therapeutic reasons.” – Ash [08:40]
• Screens are especially valuable for kids with autism or communication differences, allowing unique engagement not possible through other means.

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3. Screens as Real Connection and Community (11:01–14:55)

• Online friendships and communities are real for both kids and adults.
• The difference in adult vs. child perception is often about valuing different leisure activities, not about the actual ‘realness’ of the interaction.
• Quote:
  “An assumption sometimes is that the things happening in these digital spaces are not real... But as adults, we spend a lot of time on the internet... why wouldn’t that be real for kids with their interests?” – Ash [11:40]
• Important to ask: What counts as a good use of time and why?

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4. Self-Awareness and Talking About Screen Effects (14:55–21:32)

• Practical advice: Talk with children about how screens make them feel – physically and emotionally.
• Example: Noticing children’s physical responses after watching TV (blinking less, fidgeting, etc.) as cues for self-regulation conversations.
• Quote:
  “As adults, we also need, or perhaps needed, someone to come in and have that conversation... sometimes we pick up our phone for that dopamine hit.” – Ash [16:32]
• Parents should treat negative responses (like meltdowns after screen time) as data to guide regulation strategies instead of blaming the device.
• Tools: Implement regular breaks, movement, and body check-ins based on the child’s developmental stage.

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5. Benefits of Gaming (21:32–25:34)

• Gaming—like any leisure activity—has inherent value not always tied to productivity.
• Games foster motivation, skill mastery, perseverance, and self-efficacy.
• Quote:
  “Being able to see benefit in just doing something fun because it’s fun is an important shift…we’re not giving unfettered access, we build in boundaries.” – Ash [23:12]
• Observing children’s gaming interests reveals motivation styles (competition, persistence, goal-setting), which can be connected to growth in other life areas.

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6. Rethinking "Detox" Language (25:34–30:06)

• The term “detox” frames screens as toxic; instead, Ash encourages honest conversations about taking breaks.
• Recommends using neutral language: “Let’s try something else for a while and see how it feels.”
• Quote:
  “If you are trying to find a balance…how do you have a balance with something you’re framing as poisonous or toxic?” – Ash [26:44]
• Parents should model their own self-regulation: “Man, I’ve been in such a bad mood today, I just want to cheer myself up…but instead I’m going to take the dog for a walk.” – Ash [28:15]

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7. Including Kids in Screen-Time Decisions (29:37–32:33)

• Involve children in the decision-making process about screen use—age-appropriately.
• Allows kids to build decision-making and emotional regulation skills.
• Normalize parents and kids both revising their screen time rules.
• Quote:
  “I think I get why adults sometimes want to come off like the omnipotent… but being willing to admit when you’ve made a mistake goes so far with kids.” – Ash [31:26]

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8. Screen Time as Reward or Punishment (32:33–37:56)

• Ash cautions against using screens strictly as reward/punishment, as it can heighten preoccupation and doesn’t nurture intrinsic motivation.
• For neurodiverse families, sometimes a structured system works—do what works for your child.
• Use logical consequences related to specific behaviors (e.g., pause screen if behavior issue occurs during screen time, not hours earlier).
• Quote:
  “The irony is adults often want their kids to do something…but the structure creates a preoccupation with the screen, which is the opposite of what’s wanted.” – Ash [33:14]

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9. Parental Controls and Online Safety (38:03–44:35)

• Step-by-step: Research games before downloading, use built-in parental controls (Ash provides guides on their blog and Instagram).
• Scaffold skills—limit chat features initially, allow more as kids demonstrate responsibility and digital communication skills.
• For YouTube, parents have more control than they may realize (including curating playlists, disabling comments, etc.).
• Quote:
  “Much easier to take the training wheels off than to put them on… start with more restrictive, then open up as they demonstrate skills.” – Ash [41:35]

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10. Modeling Messiness and Self-Compassion (45:20–46:25)

• Don’t hold yourself to unattainable standards; parenting (and screen management) is inherently “messy.”
• It’s positive for kids to see adults navigate mistakes and adjust course.
• Quote:
  “Parenting is a lot of damage control… it’s okay to model the messiness of that for kids. It’s okay for kids to see that we make mistakes and we’re human.” – Ash [45:20]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• [07:27] – “The conversation is extremely binary… I like to joke that I’ve made nonbinary my whole platform – just destroy binaries everywhere I go.” – Ash
• [08:40] – “Teetering right underneath the surface in these conversations is ableism… but there are ways it [screen time] can be used in therapy, and from a therapeutic side...”
• [11:39] – “It is a real community. I think an assumption sometimes is that the things happening in digital spaces are not real.”
• [14:55] – “How do you feel when we’ve spent an hour watching TV as opposed to 15 minutes? How can we tell when we’ve had too much?”
• [23:12] – “Being able to see benefit in just doing something fun because it’s fun is an important shift.”
• [26:44] – “If you are trying to find a balance…how do you have a balance with something you’re framing as poisonous or toxic?”
• [31:26] – “I can’t tell you how far being willing to admit when you’ve made a mistake goes with kids.”
• [33:14] – “The irony, I find, when we use like reward and punishment structure is… adults create a preoccupation with the screen, which is the opposite of what the adult wants.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | | ------------- | -------------------------------------------- | | 04:00–06:30 | Ash’s personal journey into gaming/education | | 07:26–11:01 | Reframing binary thinking – ableism | | 11:39–14:55 | Online communities are real | | 14:55–21:32 | Self-awareness; regulating screen effects | | 21:32–25:34 | The value/benefits of gaming | | 25:34–30:06 | Rethinking “detox” and parent modeling | | 32:33–37:56 | Reward/punishment pitfalls | | 38:03–44:35 | Parental controls & scaffolding safety skills | | 45:20–46:25 | Final advice—modeling humanity/messiness |

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Resources Mentioned

• Ash’s Guides and Parental Control Resources:
  Available at thegamereducator.com and linked through Ash’s Instagram @the.gamer.educator (Reels, parental control highlights for various devices and apps including Youtube, Roblox, Nintendo Switch, and more.)

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Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation is candid, compassionate, and practical, with an emphasis on meeting families where they are rather than prescribing rigid rules.
• The hosts and Ash encourage flexibility, nuance, and communication within families, and underscore that both children and adults are still learning how to engage healthily with screens.
• Screens aren’t inherently good or bad: what matters is intentional use, self-awareness, and healthy boundaries that serve the needs of each unique child and family.

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For more: See Ash’s “The Gamer Educator” blog, Instagram, and the Unbabbled show notes for links to all referenced resources.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello and welcome to Unbabbled, a podcast that navigates the world of special education, communication delays and learning differences. We are your hosts Stephanie Landis and Meredith Krummel and we're certified speech language pathologists who spend our days at the Parish School in Houston helping children find their voices and connect with the world around them.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

In this episode, educator Ash Brandon gives tips and information to help families make screen time work for everyone. Ash is a middle school librarian, speaker and parent educator. Through their blog and Instagram account, thegamer Educator, they educate parents and caregivers on how to navigate video games and online technology as well as give strategies to help find a balance that works in their home. Throughout the episode, they provide ways for parents to reframe their thinking about screen time, give tips on helping children and adults Become aware of how how screens may make their bodies feel and give helpful phrases to use when talking about screens with your kids. Ash also gives tips on parental controls and ways to teach your children to use chat features responsibly.

[D]

Welcome to another episode of Unbabbled. Today we have Ash Brandon, who is here to talk to us about gaming and screen time and navigating the Internet with your children, which is a huge topic that we are excited about speaking with. So welcome, Ash, thank you for coming.

[E]

Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here.

[D]

And on top of that, we have a special guest host. Meredith is out, so Molly is here with us. Molly is our director of admissions here at the Parish School and is a speech pathologist and a mom. Also interested in learning about this topic?

[A]

Yes. Hi, Stephanie and Ash, thank you so much for having me today. I'm super excited.

[D]

So, Ash, your background is in education and you are a librarian. So how did you get started in navigating and getting so invested in the screen time and gaming world?

[E]

Yeah, honestly, it just kind of happened. Not really by accident, but just sort of a natural extension of like my upbringing. So I grew up with gaming as part of my life, and it was not a big deal. It was just part of my life, like other things. And I grew into a young adult who also saw gaming that way and not being a big deal, just another part of life. So when I entered education, I became an educator who saw it that way. And I became very interested in looking at research around the use of entertainment based video games. So not educational games in academic spaces, because I started as a music teacher and when I was getting my master's degree, it was like the height of the Guitar Hero craze, if you remember that. And so actually, those games actually teach players to play very similarly to how beginning string players learn to play string instruments. And so I thought, well, this is great. This is like the crossover event string teachers must have been waiting for. So I looked for research and examples of people using it, and I found nothing, which doesn't mean it wasn't happening. But I didn't find anything. And I thought, well, okay, maybe I'll just try stuff on my own. And I decided that it was less about trying to bring gaming into a classroom, literally, and more about what is it that makes people want to play these things? How do we make education feel like that and try to bring in structures into my classroom and my curriculum? And I liked it. And so I shared those ideas in, like, conferences and conventions, mostly gaming spaces, because they were amenable to those conversations. When Covid began, I pretty quickly realized I was not going to go to a conference or a convention anytime soon, and I missed it. I wanted to scratch the itch that was like the push I needed. And I naively came into social media at the Gamer Educator on Instagram, and I naively thought, well, I'm going to be talking to teachers because, like, other adults get this. They are. They have kids at home, they understand this. And then very quickly was like, no, no, they don't. And that's when they kind of pivoted more into, you know, the educational piece for adults and turning it more into the management piece and really reframing how we think about screens in households. So it's been kind of organic and kind of a little bit building the plane while you're flying it a little bit, but been exciting.

[D]

Yeah, you make an interesting point. Because I feel like screens and video games are something that there's not a lot of balance in the discussion. It's either like, yeah, my kids can do whatever, whenever, and it's not something that we worry about, or it's like, no, screens are bad. If they play video games, they're not going to learn. Or it's going to. In my house, we joke about it being like, oh, we're just going to go rat our brains now, just between

[E]

my husband and I get it, you

[D]

know, it's just going to go rot their brains. And there's no room for in the middle. And we have so many parents that come to us, Molly and I, as speech pathologists, being like, oh, no, is watching TV going to stop my kid from talking? We're like, no, we can use TV as a tool. So it sounds like that's a lot of what you do with parents is teaching them how to use it as a tool.

[E]

Yeah. And also I think just taking time to actually recorrect our whole view of the use of screens to begin with. You're right. The conversation is extremely binary. And I like to joke I am non binary as my identity. I like to joke that I've made non binary, like my whole platform just destroy binaries everywhere I go. Because it's just not like you alluded to. It isn't helpful. Like, if all I do is show up and say, well, it's either good or it's bad. Well, then I'm basically giving adults and families only two options. And that option essentially is, okay, choose the quote unquote good option, which is minimal screens. And then what we often don't voice, but is actually like, the necessitating factor of that is that then that adult is having to give more of themselves that they may not have available to give. Right. Screens are often filling in these gaps, not because families are happy to have them, but because they have nothing else. They are lacking in systemic support. So when we show up and say, well, screen time is bad, video games are bad, well, what does that say to that adult who's using them as like, a necessary gap filler? Then that adult thinks, oh, I should be doing more, I should be giving more. I should postpone my shower till the kids are in bed and I shouldn't put the TV on and I should try to make dinner with three kids underfoot. And, and, and, and, and, and then everybody loses, right? The. The adult ends up dysregulated and snapping at their kids, and the kids feel like they're getting snapped at, nobody's winning. And so it's like we give them that option or we say like, oh, well, you know, they're bad. And then if somebody chooses to use them, like, okay, I guess they can if they need to, but they're bad. So we're just. There is so much more room for nuance in there. And something that has not come up in many of my other conversations and interviews, but I am glad to talk to you all about is that teetering just right underneath the surface in these conversations about screens are bad. Ableism is right underneath that argument. And I find that people. People don't want to say that part out loud. Right. We don't want to admit that's what we're talking about. But so many arguments about why screens are bad or the role of screens that can be negative are actually really rooted in a lot of ableist ideas that, you know, if our kids used screens, that it would somehow be bad for them. Well, why would it be bad for them? If it's bad for the brain, why, what would it be doing? And if you kind of push people in that line of thinking, eventually they're going to get to a point where they will admit that their child will be using a screen in a way that they feel would not, you know, be setting them up, like in a good way or be representing them in a good way. But the reality is, is that many people use screens for many, frankly, therapeutic reasons. And there are ways it can be used in therapy and from the therapeutic side. And there's ways that we also can use it just on our own in a way that might Help us with parts of our lives that might be more difficult. So a child who has autism might be really engaged in certain things that are screen based and they might not be able to have that level of engagement with other parts of their lives. So is a screen really bad in that case? If it's allowing that child to communicate or connect or feel involved in a part of their life, they wouldn't be able to otherwise. The answer is no. And I think if you gave an example to people, they would go, oh, well, I didn't mean like that. And that's just more evidence of why there needs to be nuance in these conversations.

[D]

Yeah, we've had a lot of parents in the past talk about how their kids were able to, especially as they got older, not so much the younger kids, but connect with other kids that had really specialized interest, because a lot of our kids have really specialized interests. And then their peers at school might not want to talk to them, like over and over and over about their specialized interests. But with the parents helping them navigate, they've been able to find other kids who really enjoy those special interests and make connections that way and like, build a community. And it might not be a face to face community, but it's an online community and it's a real friendship and real community that way.

[E]

Absolutely. And like you said, and it is a real community, I think an assumption sometimes is that the things that are happening in these digital spaces are not real. And I struggle sometimes to understand where that comes from because, you know, as adults, we spend a lot of time on the Internet, and many adults grew up with the Internet, involved in our life in some way. And we probably did make connections with someone through the Internet, or we've wasted countless hours trying to argue with someone online, prove our point. We're just convinced we can get through to them. That feels real to us. But then we're not willing to extend that same interpretation of how real it feels to a child pursuing their interests or their social connections, or if they're doing it through something that we just don't think is a good use of time. Like, oh yeah, it's fine when I'm talking in, you know, my parent group about what milestones our kids are setting. But it's not okay when my kid wants to, you know, basically goof around and hang out in a fortnite room. Well, that's not actually about the screen. That's about how we view a use of time and how we view what is an okay use of time and what is not. And it gets kind of like conflated with the delivery mechanism of being through a screen. But really, that's not really a screen argument. It's a, it's an anti leisure argument.

[D]

I didn't count text messaging and sending memes as friendship interactions. I would have none a day, right?

[E]

I would have like one friend, right? And I live with them.

[D]

Right?

[E]

Like so much of maintaining, especially in adulthood, especially as parents, so much of maintaining a sense of identity is being able to make connections thanks to our use of technology. Now, does that mean that it's always going to be for good? Of course not. We're having this conversation now in which at a time in which the Internet is currently not a very fun place to be because there's a lot of people arguing with each other about a lot of things and that happens a lot. And it's not always that pleasant. So it's not saying that yes, it's always good or yes, we're always using it in a good way. But again, that room for nuance. When we open, we open the possibility to have those nuanced conversations, then we can start having conversations about like, what is a quote unquote, good use of screens, like for us, for our family, for our kids, for their brains. How do you feel when we've spent, you know, an hour watching TV as opposed to 15 minutes? How can we notice these things? How can we tell when we've had too much? What clues is our body giving us? And when we only come in with like a. Well, they're bad. When we only come in with that, then we're not actually teaching a skill, right? We alluded before we started this interview to aspects of digital literacy and safety. Those are skills and you have to teach the skill. And I completely empathize with the idea that like, we want to just withhold because it's scary. And I totally, totally get that. We can withhold things that feel inappropriate while also preparing our kids to navigate those things one day, they are not mutually exclusive. And if we do want kids who are going to grow up to be adults who don't bother trying to fight with strangers on the Internet like we do, we might anyway, then, you know, we have to teach them those skills. And that does not happen from a binary place of like, oh, yeah, don't do that because it's bad. It just, that's not going to set them up for success.

[D]

I have so many thoughts from that small little thing. My first one is that I love that you talk about having a conversation with your kid about, like, how do we feel after we watch either 15 minutes, minutes or an hour or whatever, legitimately. Last night at dinner, we, my kids were watching TV before they sat down while I was getting dinner ready. And my son loves Wheel of Fortune. And we sat down and I'm looking at him and I was like, are you okay? And he kept blinking and looking down and his eyes were red. And I was like, are you okay? Like, are you getting sick? And my husband was like, no, he didn't blink the entire time he was staring at the tv. And I was like, why?

[A]

Why not?

[D]

Like, you have to like blink even during commercials. And he's like, but I love the commercials. And it was like, okay, well, does this feel good? And we didn't keep going, but we're like, okay, we have to blink. We have to do this. I'm like, see, if we stare at the screen too long without blinking, it hurts our eyes. And I think that that is worth having a conversation because firstly, like, my daughter, if she watches TV too much, then she doesn't get that energy out. And so she starts to get like, fidgety and is like jumping on the couch while she's watching tv. And so I think that take your input and go have a conversation with my kids and be like, oh, like, I'm noticing when we hit this amount of time of screens, your bodies start reacting this way and they're getting to an age at 9 and 6 where they can get involved in that conversation, Whereas, like, at 3, they have no self awareness. So it's all adult. But that's a great. I love that perspective of, you know, being aware. Because as adults we start to hunch and our eyes hurt too. Right?

[E]

And sometimes as adults, we also need, or perhaps needed when we were younger, someone to come in and have that conversation. And like, I'm an elder millennial, so we really didn't have that because it didn't exist. We were like, you know, the great, the new frontier of the Internet. And so we didn't have someone coming up to us and saying, hey, you've been in a chat room for four hours. Like, perhaps it's time to take a break. And I'm sure we all. Yeah. I just had a post the other day about how screens are sometimes used as a coping mechanism and how that can be fine and it can also not be so fine. And then it once again comes down to nuance. There are times where I can tell I'm picking up my phone because my brain is like desperate for a dopamine hit. And I'm like, oh, I'll just look for something, right? And I can tell myself like that's probably not actually what you want to do right now. You probably want to be getting this from something else and has take it takes so long to build that level of self awareness, let alone regulation. And I'm an adult and it's, I still am struggling with it. I think we all do. We hear a lot like, oh, but apps and these phones are designed to be engrossing and addictive and okay, like yes, I'm not going to disagree with someone about that. What are we going to do about it? Like okay, that's a reality. How are we going to be able to navigate that? Because that's true. If that's true, then unless we're just choosing to abstain from them forever, which is not very practical, we're going to have to find ways to navigate that. And we're also going to have to find ways to set our kids up with success to eventually navigate that. So I thought the example you gave of your child getting fidgety on the couch, perfect example. Feedback I get a lot of from parents is like, well, when do I start these conversations? And along with that is often one of the major kind of complaints or concerns I hear is when it's time to stop. They are so upset. It is like a switch flips and we go from completely fine and then the TV is off and now it is like the meltdown of meltdowns. And I completely understand why in the moment we are so surprised and our urge is to blame something. And I completely empathize with that. Because if I blame something then it's not my fault and it's not my kid's fault and it's not my fault as a parent because last thing any of us wants to feel when we're turning off the TV is like shame. And our kid doesn't want to feel shame either. So we deflect. And what do we deflect to? We blame the TV or the screen or the tablet or the video game or whatever because it's so much easier. The TV can't argue back with us. The TV can't tell us why it's not it's problem and we can blame it instead. However, what does that do for tomorrow? It doesn't do anything. So when we instead can look at it as like data and reframe that information as data, our kids are telling us something and what are they telling us? Maybe they're dysregulated now. Okay, then what were the signs that I could possibly have clued into? Like you brought up with a fidgety kid. I also have a fidgety kid. I have a kid who gets fidgety or they get loud. Like they're just. Their volume level just gets really. They're not angry, it's just they get loud. And so if I'm noticing all of a sudden they're like moving their body on the couch while they're playing or they're getting really loud. Okay, that's their tell, right? That's their nervous system basically saying, help me, we're getting to a not so great place. And then my job as the adult is to come in exactly as you said. And maybe I hold a boundary and say, hey, I notice you're getting fidgety and loud. We're hitting pause. We're taking a 30 second dance party where you're going to bear walk, bear crawl down the hall and back or balance this pillow on your head and go ask dad what he wants for dinner. You know, we're going to build in regulation opportunities into potentially dysregulating activities so that we can prevent that meltdown from happening and so we can get them paying attention to their own bodies. That conversation is going to change as they grow. Like you said, when they're three, it might just be we're taking a break. We're not going to give them a little why they can't handle the way. Right. And when they're 5, 6, 7, then maybe it's hey, I'm noticing this. Do you feel that, okay, we've taken a break. How do you feel now? So we're really kind of building in an introspection. Maybe when they're 8, 9, 10, it's hey, I'm hitting pause on the TV. What do you need right now? What strategy are you going to try? How did it work? Did it help? Should we try something else so that eventually they're able to do that on their own? But when we see it just as like, I'm just going to blame the tv. That is just going to prolong what we're experiencing. When we can shift it to see it as data and information, then maybe we can set ourselves up for success.

[A]

Definitely. I think we've talked a lot and you've given us so much great information about the positives and some of the negatives. Can you just talk about some of the benefits of gaming? And you talked about the benefits with screen time, it being kind of a gap filler and helping us that way. What about with gaming? I know we talked a little bit about the social piece. What are some other benefits?

[E]

It's funny, I think people assume that I, in this space I'm gonna be this like real pro gaming advocate and I actually tend to shy away from that because I find those conversations tend to go in one direction pretty quickly and I don't find it to be a very helpful one. So you'll hear sometimes people say like oh, you know, it's going to improve their reading or because they're really interested in something, they're going to be able to apply their reading skills or critical thinking or hand eye coordination. But the immediate counter argument to that is but all these other things would do that and they're not screens, right? Well they could read a book, they could learn to play soccer, they could do puzzles and all of those things would be better. In parentheses, the silent part. We don't say out loud because it's not a screen and screens are bad.

[D]

Right.

[E]

So what is the benefit of gaming? I would say that I think the more we can shift our thinking, as I mentioned this earlier, about how we use leisure time, I think the more that we can be allowing ourselves and our kids to have leisure time that is just leisure. A lot of our leisure time still we, we only really think of it as good leisure time if it's still productive leisure time.

[A]

Right.

[E]

If our kids are in soccer practice, good. If our kids are just sitting around watching tv, bad. And you know, soccer is good because they're learning something and they're moving and, and, and well it's still this kind of productive thing. So I think being able to see benefit in just doing something fun because it's fun I think is an important shift. And again that I think the fear is that if we do that that somehow we're saying yes to it all the time and no we're not. We build in boundaries around pretty much every other part of our kids lives. Something can be fun and that's not meaning that we're giving, you know, unfettered access to it. I also think that if we can start to view, you know, their interest in gaming as like, oh yeah, this is just thing they like, like other things they like, then we can the individual benefits to our kids that might be more unique, something that video games are very good at is motivating. I think many adults see it as quote unquote addicting but most of the time the things we think of as addicting actually are just motivating. There are some problematic structures that some games can have. That's not what I'm talking about. But like when you pick up a controller and you're trying to get to the end of a level in Mario, that is mostly based on just intrinsic motivation. It's making you feel skilled, it's making you feel in control, and it's helping you relate to other people in some way. Some games are going to do more of those things than others. But if I notice that my kid is super, super driven to play a certain type of game, like, wow, they want to play every racing game known to mankind. And they will, they will try again and again and again and again and again to get first place. I've learned something about my kid from that. I've learned that they're motivated through competition. I've learned that they're willing to refine. I've learned that they can try things again and again and look for ways to improve. And when I view that as a valid use of time, suddenly I can pivot that into a whole other area of their life. Suddenly I can draw that comparison to when they're on the soccer field and trying to get onto a better team, or when we're trying to revisit a skill that used to feel hard and maybe now it feels a little bit easier. Easier. So I don't know. That's not exactly kind of the literal benefit, but that's what comes to mind when people ask about those kinds of benefits.

[A]

And that also reminds me, a child feeling successful at something, that's, I think, a huge benefit. If they are successful at video games or Mario, then great, that's something you can celebrate and something they can feel successful with on that topic. And just talking about the good and bad, the binary. I saw a post you did about detoxing from screens, so I wanted to hear your take on that because I think it's a really great, helpful take that you have. And then also what we can do instead of saying a detox, maybe talk about, like, taking a break or. Or just some language to use around that.

[E]

Sure. I think you kind of led with essentially my point, which is that it's okay to take breaks from things, and it is okay with. To do that. And I don't think that there's any reason that we can't just own that that's what we're doing. You know, detox has a very particular meaning, which is, you know, detoxification, which is referring to something being toxic or poisonous. And I get some pushback of like, well, that's not what it means anymore. And to that, I would say it only doesn't mean that because we have decided that it's become such a ubiquitous term that we're going to allow it to mean something else. But actually, that is still what we. You know, you hear the term detox a lot in relation to screens or tech or other quote unquote, potentially bad things. You hear it a lot of, like, wellness stuff. And it's still the same idea. We're taking something bad away and it puts it once again in that binary position. And for a kid hearing that for like, oh, we have to take a screen detox because we have to take a detox from screens, then what does that say about screenshots? And if you are trying to find a balance, genuinely, how do you have a balance with something that you are framing as poisonous or toxic? That just isn't setting us up for a conversation about how we have a balance with these things. And it's fine just to say, you know what? Like, I've noticed that every day we're coming home, we're putting the TV on right away. We didn't used to do that. And I'm hoping that. I just really want to find something else we do right away. We're still going to have some screen time. I'll still put the TV on while I make dinner. But this week I want us to do something else when we come home right away and then brainstorm or whatever. And it can just be framed as, let's try this. I want to see how this goes. How does this feel? Once again, it's that idea of experimentation, figuring out what's going to work for a family, what's going to work for a kid or an adult. I also think that we, we do a ton of that with our own modeling. Like, I'm someone who obviously spends a lot of time on the Internet, you know, and I have made some own changes with my own use of social media. And does it feel better to me? Absolutely. Would I necessarily say that to my kid? Not necessarily, because it's more about how it's working for me, but I think that modeling can be really helpful of saying, man, I've been in such a bad mood today. I keep looking at my phone. I just want to cheer myself up and that is not helping. So instead, I'm going to put my phone down and I'm going to take the dog for a walk. And wow, I feel better now. I moved my body I really didn't want to, and I really do feel better now. Just all those conversations when we take the weight of judgment out of it and we just focus instead on the role that it's serving, I think can really serve us. And. Because if I don't say this, it will bother me. I did put in that reel, but I think it's really important to note that also the idea of detoxification and how it relates to, like, wellness and like, standards is also really just complicated and messy and interwoven with history of upholding white supremacist ideals of, of, like, wellness and beauty and goodness. So if anyone wants to know more about that, I have some credits, I think, in that reel about that. But, yeah, that's why I try to avoid those terms.

[A]

And Ash, I loved how you talk about including kids in this conversation. And it's not just the parent saying you feel. I mean, I know it depends on age, but as kids are able to understand that, I love including kids in that conversation and making sure that they feel heard and they know they're a part of the process and decision making with the family. They're an important piece of, of the family as well.

[E]

Absolutely. And then it also puts us in a role where they can eventually make that decision. You know, there's been a couple times where I've initially said, like, oh, what do you want to play today? And then I've suddenly been like, you know what? Actually, I think I need to, like, actually make the decision here for a given reason. And that doesn't mean my kid will always like it. They probably will not. But sometimes when I am able to then lead with a you know what? Actually, like, we're, we're trying to wind down or we've had a really high energy day. I think we need something that's going to help our energy come down. Even those kinds of conversations. I've noticed that my child would will say, like, oh, yeah, maybe I'll play this instead. I can handle this kind of energy or this feels good to me today. And having those conversations can just make them more aware and help build those skills kind of in the background.

[A]

Yeah, I've noticed that you talk about that changing your mind around screen time on your Instagram, and I love that because as a parent, sometimes I can feel like I made this boundary. I need to stick hard and I can get stuck in that. So I've loved seeing, like, it's okay to change your mind around rules, around screen time, just talking about it and, and modeling the Changing your mind. I mean, kids need to change their minds too, sometimes. So that's very helpful.

[E]

Absolutely. And again, it shows to our kids. I think I get why adults sometimes want to come off like the omnipotent, like, all seeing, all knowing, in charge. But having worked with kids for a really long time, I cannot tell you how far being willing to admit when you've made a mistake goes with kids. And that doesn't mean we're falling all over ourselves apologizing, but being willing to, like, literally just say, like, you know what? I think I'm going to change my mind on that. Or, you know, you brought this up, and I've really been thinking about it. I really want to try to make this work. How can we do that? What if we did this? Or just, hey, you know, I said no the other day and I didn't really have a reason for saying no. I'm really sorry I did that. I've been thinking more about it. I think you'd be shocked. People will be shocked how far that goes. That's like some of the biggest feedback I get from students is when they have an adult who's just willing to say, like, hey, I screwed up, or, oh, I should have thought more about that, or I think thought more about that. They do want to be included in these decisions. They don't always make that clear, but they do.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. And that being said something, a huge mistake I feel like I've made in the past is using screen time as a reward and a punishment. So, agreed.

[D]

I feel like when we use it as a reward or a punishment, it becomes something that's like, put up on a pedestal and become a good thing, bad thing again. And just in my household, it never works.

[E]

So I will say if people are listening to this, and I will also say, so, like, I have worked with many people who have neurodiverse brains. I do not give specific advice about aspects of neurodivergence because I don't feel qualified to do that. So I've worked with many people with neurodivergent brains that doesn't. I'm not going to say, like, do this if your child has adhd, because no matter who your child is, it's about figuring out what works for them. So sometimes the structure of reward, I have heard from families who have neurodivergent children that it actually does work really well for them. So if you're listening to this and you're like, it works great for us, I am not telling you not to do what works well. Well for you. If it works great for you, keep on doing what you're doing, and I am genuinely glad for you. And if you are just unsure or maybe it hasn't worked and you're not sure why, then here's something to consider. So the irony, I find, when we use, like, reward and punishment, structure is what an adult wants is an adult often wants their child to do the thing that needs to be done. But what an adult ends up doing, creating, is an adult ends up creating a preoccupation with the screen, which is actually the opposite of what the adult wants. So if. If I want my kid to clean their room, and I say, if you clean your room every day this week without being asked, then you get screens. Why is my child going to clean their room? They are not going to clean their room because they want me to be happy that their room is clean. If that were enough, they would have been doing it already. They're going to do it because I just put a dangling carrot in front of them. And if they do that and they do it every day this week, what are they going to be thinking every day? Oh, yeah, I've got to do it. So. So that I get screens. So that I. Right. Means that they are. That's what they're focused on. So I get to the reward. They're not focused on the thing I actually want them to do. They're focused on what I've promised them. And then when they get that reward, what are they going to want next week? They're going to want it again. And the opposite is also true with punishment. If I remove. If I remove a screen often, they may not even realize that that was an option. Right. Sometimes we do it out of desperation. Totally get it. We've all been there of the like, oh, my gosh, if you do not get in line and be quiet, you will not have screen time later today. And to that kid's brain, suddenly they're like, I didn't even know that was on the table. Right? Like, I had no idea screen time was up for grabs. And all of a sudden you're taking it away from me. Well, what other things are you going to take away from me? Or what other seemingly random and unrelated behaviors are related to my screen time? And I had no idea. So sometimes I'll have people who are like, okay, but what if they're like, you know, jumping up and down on the couch and throwing the controller? I can't take it away. Then. And then to that I say, it's about if the behaviors are related. So if my child is having a meltdown in the middle of screen time, then yeah, I probably need to pause screen time. And that's not because screens are bad. It's because the behavior needs to be addressed. I need to address the behavior. And if my child's having a really hard time waiting their turn in a line and they are having screens in six hours, you know, taking screens away has nothing to do with standing in line and being patient. Six hours previously.

[F]

Right.

[E]

Cleaning your room because it's important to clean your room isn't really related to screen time. Now if screen time happens after clean your room time and they choose to sit in their room and not clean their room and just wait out the clock, then maybe I say, oh, you know what, it's five o' clock and that's time for video games and your room isn't clean yet. So screen time's available until 5:30 when your room is clean and I have checked it, then screen time can start. That's different because that is a directly related, logical, like, consequence of behavior as opposed to this feeling of like a slot machine, like I'm going to do something that's going to make my parent angry and like it'll maybe affect some other unrelated part of my day.

[A]

And something that I have realized. I love to use TV time when I'm cooking or as that gap filler. And if I punish with, well, then no screen time and I'm like, oops, then that means you lose. Exactly. Losing.

[E]

Exactly. Exactly. It's also interwoven because then you're ultimately punishing yourself and then you're mad like two different ways.

[A]

Right.

[E]

Then you're kind of resentful at your kid because you feel like they're somehow punishing you. But you're the one who made that idea. So.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Especially if they're, if they are filling in a gap and you're the one benefiting from that gap, then yeah, you probably don't want to be removing the thing and maybe it ends up changing. Right. Maybe it's we're doing something else this day during that screen time or watching something else. But yeah, thinking about who is benefiting from this.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

And you're allowed to benefit. It's okay if the adult's benefiting. Right. And we get to take up that space in that, in that way.

[D]

For sure. This is slightly unrelated, but thinking back when we were talking about like online communities and you talking about like building a knowledge of how to like chat with people online and talk to people online. One of the things that I know is difficult for parents is knowing how to navigate like which games have chat functions and how to support their kids. Like if they hear something or they encounter somebody that they shouldn't. Do you have advice on like navigating this new. Because I mean I'm the same generation and that aim was a wild west. That is all I remember. So my very like, nope, shut the door, don't do what I did. And so I don't want it to be like the wild west on like Roblox or Minecraft. I want them to be able to navigate that.

[E]

So depending on the game or console or whatever that we're talking about. So on my Instagram I have a highlight that has a bunch of content specific parental control posts. So those are very helpful I think depending on what you're looking for. I have one for consoles like Nintendo Switch, I have one for Kindle, like Fire tablets, I have them for iOS like iPads and iPhones. I have one for Roblox and then I have three separate guides all about YouTube. You know, YouTube is I think the bane of many parents existence and I don't think people realize how much control you actually have with YouTube. They do not make it easy, they do not make it well communicated. But you can actually set YouTube up in ways that are really, really highly controlled. I think people know YouTube Kids exists and then there's a lot of people Talking about how YouTube Kids is actually bad because people can just say videos are okay for kids that they're really not. But YouTube Kids is actually a pretty good structure and then you can make it even controlled. So like my child has access to YouTube kids and they literally can only see the things that I have pre approved and shared directly with them. So it's basically like a stagnant static video playlist that I have personally curated and they can't see comments and they can't navigate and they can't get suggestions. They can see only what I've pre vetted. So if that interests people, those are on my blog which is the gamereducator.com they're also linked in my bio link in my Instagram. But generally speaking, if you're unsure about a game and its potential access to other people, honestly the best thing to do is probably to literally just Google it, like name of game chat features, which sounds silly, but that's what I would be doing. I get a lot of DMs of what about this game? And I'm like, I would be googling it because I don't know. If your child's interested in the game and you're new to it, be the first person to open it up. You know, it's okay to say, I need time to look at this, you know, or we need time to look at this game together. I have a reel about that of like, when your kid is like, download this for me. What about this? What about that? And that it's okay to say, you know, here are the rules for new content in our family. You know, the adults at home have to look at it. The adults at home have to decide how this is going to work for us. And that might take time. And they don't have to like that. They might have to wait. But looking at the settings, looking at the options available, it's definitely easier to start with those things set up ahead of time than it is to try to put them in after you realize, oh, my gosh, I said yes to the thing I shouldn't have. And I would say probably best to start with more restrictive. Much easier to take the training wheels off than to put them on. So maybe you start by, by just disabling all chat features. And if that's something they want, this is something else I've talked about quite a bit on my page. I think it can be very helpful to reframe things that kids want as skills and think about the skills that are necessary to access the privilege they want or the responsibility they want. Like, oh, you want to be able to play Fortnite online with your friends? That's like kind of a big ask, right? Here are the skills that you need for me to feel okay with that, and how do we work you up those skills? So if that's the goal, right, we're doing some end design thinking, then how do we get there? Okay, maybe we start by we allow chats with people we know, like actual literal friends in person. And you're playing it in the living room, where I can overhear what you're saying. And then like, you asked about, you know, what happens when I hear them say something that I don't like. How would you handle that conversation if they were literally in the same room, you know, if they were sitting on the same couch having that conversation, what would you say? That's probably what I would say. Because if we want kids to understand online safety, a lot of it is getting them to understand that those things are just as real as if they said them in the same room. And so we can hold boundaries that same way. Then maybe we allow, you know, written chats that we can't necessarily monitor every moment of. But maybe we. They know that we could if we needed to. Maybe we allow written chats with people we know, and then maybe we allow spoken audio chats with people we know, but they're wearing a headset so we can hear less. We can only hear one side of it. So there's ways to scaffold those skills up. And I know that seems kind of micromanaging and I get it. And people don't have to do that if they don't want to. But what I like about that is if we get to one of those levels of access and it suddenly isn't working, we have a very logical idea of where to go back to. Right. It's not like, oh, we're scrapping it all over. Never mind, I'm through. We can't play Fortnite ever again. Right. If we were able to do well with written chats and we weren't able to do well with audio chats. Okay, we're going to go back to just typing chats for a while. That was working really well. We're going to go back to that for a while. We can try again in a couple of weeks.

[A]

Just real quick, all of those. I am stuck on the YouTube safety and all the chat functions. You have those on your page and can we link them on our show notes?

[E]

Oh, sure, yes, I'll send them to you. Yeah. But yeah, that way I think it's helpful to just build in those blocks, not just for the kid. Like, it makes it feel more concrete for the kid instead of like this big, well, maybe someday, but also for you as the parent, because then you have like kind of a road map to follow of like, okay, this is what we're doing together. This is how we're going to check in on this together.

[D]

I love that. I also know that, like, my family has done that as my nieces and nephew have gotten older with like texting and phones and other things. Like, here are the five numbers that you're allowed to text with. And now you're earning to be able to do it with other people because they are learned skills.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

You know, we need to teach them and navigate them just like we would face to face conversations. So I could talk to you all day because this is fantastic information. But I have one last question that we ask at the end of every episode. Is it if you had one piece of advice to give and it can be related to screens. Or it could just be any advice, like, eat broccoli. I don't know, like life advice. What would you give? I love to put people on the spot.

[E]

Well, I'm not often given the chance for it to be so broad. So I'm like, I don't know what to do with my newfound freedom. For some reason, people seem to really hold themselves to extremely high standard with screen time, that we have to get it right right away or somehow we've like tainted the whole child and parenting is all a matter of, to be honest, it's a lot of damage control. It's a lot of doing stuff and then trying to make sure that we're okay with the possible effects of whatever decision we just made. And it's okay to model the messiness of that for kids. It's okay for kids to see that we make mistakes. It's okay for kids to see that we're human. And when kids do see that and see that we can make mistakes and see that we're human, they're probably going to grow up to be adults who are more willing to make mistakes, which is probably something we really wish. So I would say give yourself less of a hard time and be okay with kids sometimes seeing some of that messiness. It's probably actually a lesson that they would really benefit from seeing.

[D]

Have you been talking to my husband? Are you giving advice to me?

[A]

I was giving it to me, actually.

[D]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. This is such useful and helpful information.

[E]

Well, thank you all very much for having me.

[A]

So much. This is great.

[D]

And yes, we'll have a whole lot of links to all of your information so that you can find out even more because this is is just like a little blip in such a deep dive of a topic. So thank you.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[F]

Thank you for listening to the Unbabbled podcast. For more information on today's episode, please see our episode description. For more information on the parish school, visit parishschool.org if you're not already. Don't forget to subscribe to the Unbabbled podcast on your app of choice. And if you like what you're hearing, be sure to leave a rating rating and review. A special thank you to Andy Williams, Joanna Rissmiller and Molly Weisselberg for all their hard work behind the scenes. Thanks again for listening.