Carole Radziwill

Summary

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United States of Kennedy — Carole Radziwill

Podcast: United States of Kennedy by iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: Lyra Smith, George Civeris
Guest: Brian Moylan (Real Housewives commentator & writer)
Date: September 8, 2025

EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode explores the fascinating, often overlooked Kennedy connections of Carole Radziwill—journalist, author, Real Housewives of New York (RHONY) star, and widow of Anthony Radziwill, nephew to Jackie Kennedy. The conversation, guided by Housewives expert Brian Moylan, deftly blends Bravo-verse camp with Kennedy lore, delving into Carole’s public persona, personal tragedies, and her ability to maintain credibility, humor, and even chic mystique both in and outside the infamous Housewives universe.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

Who is Carole Radziwill? (02:12–05:08)

• Kennedy Connections: Carole was married to Anthony Radziwill, Jackie O’s nephew and first cousin to JFK Jr. She was close friends with both John and Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy.
  • “Anthony and John were very close. They were each best man at the other's wedding.” —Lyra Smith (03:39)
• Professional Achievements: Before her reality TV fame, Carole was an award-winning journalist, with three Emmys, a Peabody, and a GLAAD Media Award.
  • “She has Emmys, but also, like, she can read and write … It gets a little more sophisticated than that.” —Lyra Smith (10:44)
• Shared Trauma: Carole’s memoir, What Remains, chronicles losing her husband, best friend (Carolyn), and John all within a month—a period of unimaginable personal loss.
  • “Carol lost the three people closest to her in the span of one month.” —Lyra Smith (04:55)

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Carole’s Persona on RHONY (05:36–12:30)

• Voice of Reason and Intellectual Outsider: Carole is described as the “cool downtown one,” set apart from more conventional, Upper East Side socialites of the show.
  • “It always seemed a little bit like the Housewives needed Carol more than Carol needed the housewives, which I think is a great way to position it.” —Brian Moylan (07:17)
• Comparison to Jenna Lyons: Like Jenna Lyons, Carole started the show as an “existing entity,” not needing to prove herself and retaining independence.
  • “Carol was basically Princess Diana.” —Lyra Smith (08:10)
• Housewives Authenticity: Carole is appreciated for her authenticity, quick wit, and for not playing up or faking her persona for the cameras—qualities Moylan calls essential for great Housewives.
  • "She's cool, she's smart, she's dishy. She's a little bit bitchy in a fun way. Like, just like she's on the show. She is, like, in real life." —Brian Moylan (10:06)

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Kennedy Ties & Housewife Antics (15:03–21:45)

• Brings Credibility: Carole’s Kennedy connection added a rarefied air to RHONY, making her "the princess who can one-up the countess [Luann]” (09:01).
• Bookgate: The infamous RHONY storyline where Aviva Drescher accuses Carole of using a ghostwriter for her memoir What Remains. For Carole—a professional journalist—this was a deeply personal affront.
  • “For someone to say like you, you can't do the thing that you are known for... this, to me, was a really big deal, especially as a writer and a journalist.” —Brian Moylan (19:23)
  • “Why don’t you use your words, writer girl?” —(Aviva, infamously at the RHONY reunion, 21:45)
• Intimate Glimpses: Carole didn’t exploit her Kennedy ties for storylines; the now-legendary “Lee Radziwill couch” served as a subtle symbol of her close relationships.

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The Cursed Jackie O Watch & Other Kennedy Ephemera (26:40–29:27)

• Cursed Relic: Carole inherited Jackie Kennedy’s iconic Cartier Tank watch. After both she and a friend who owned the watch became widows, Carole suspected it was cursed and sold it—Kim Kardashian bought it, then returned it due to its reputation.
  • “Carol was like, this watch is cursed. It has belonged to three women, all of whom are widowed in their 30s. I'm going to put it up for sale at Christie's.” —Lyra Smith (27:57)
  • “Kim maybe fully paid for it and just didn't want it in her possession. ...That's how much she was like, just get this motherfucker away from me.” —Brian Moylan (28:49)

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Carole’s Relationships and Narrative Arcs on RHONY (32:12–38:59)

• Celebrity Friendships and Conflicts: Carole’s major storylines included her romance with young vegan chef Adam (involving “breaking girl code” allegations), and a high-profile falling out with Bethenny Frankel.
  • "They became very close and then had a falling out ... which becomes kind of Carol's last big story on Housewives before her exit.” —Brian Moylan (32:56)
• Bethenny Friendship Fallout: Despite her cool detachment, Carole was unable to withstand the force of Bethenny’s reality-TV aggression—fans, however, often took Carole’s side as the more credible narrator.

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Carole Beyond Housewives: Returning to Journalism (32:56–34:33)

• Andy Cohen Feud: After a perceived favoritism toward Bethenny during a reunion show, Carole and Andy Cohen didn’t speak for seven years—until recently.
• Current Life: Carole is now on Substack with her column “musings”—the hosts praise her distinct columnist voice, comparing her to Carrie Bradshaw.
  • “Carol's working on a bunch of writing projects that may or may not ever see the light of day, but if they do, she plans to sell them for an obscene amount of money, buy a castle in Antwerp and fuck off.” —Carole Radziwill Substack bio (34:32)

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Relationships with Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy & Female Friendships (39:00–41:13)

• Intense Female Friendship: Carole’s memoir and personal narrative center the love she had for Carolyn, at times equaling or exceeding her marriage in emotional importance.
  • “The central love story is almost more Carol and Carolyn than it is Carol and Anthony.” —Lyra Smith (39:00)
  • “Can I borrow your toothbrush?” —Carolyn’s iconic first interaction with Carole, as told in Carol’s memoir.

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Politics & Breaking the Housewives “Fourth Wall” (41:13–44:32)

• Injecting Real-World Context: Carole was unique in bringing real-world events, especially politics, into the apolitical, escapist Housewives realm—campaigning for Hillary Clinton in 2016 (42:10–43:41).
• Bravo’s Deliberate Timelessness: The hosts reflect on Housewives as existing in a “time-neutral” space, making Carole’s political storylines even more striking.

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Housewives as Empowering Female Space (51:10–53:06)

• Defending Housewives as Culture: Brian Moylan argues for Housewives as an important space for stories “by, for, and about women,” rarely seen in scripted television.
  • “I do think that it is very biased in that reality television, especially the Housewives, is a very female space. And it is stories by, for and about women, and those are often discounted.” —Brian Moylan (51:10)
  • “Football, on the other hand, violent, damaging, terrible, promotes all the worst impulses in America. And we love it ... Housewives deserves the veneration that football gets in American culture. And I will die on this hill.” —Brian Moylan (52:07)

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Memorable Moments, Quotes & Timestamps

• On Housewives Needing Carole:
  “It always seemed a little bit like the Housewives needed Carol more than Carol needed the Housewives.” —Brian Moylan (07:17)
• Aviva’s Epic Bookgate Climax:
  “Why don’t you use your words, writer girl?” —Aviva Drescher (21:45)
• On Carole’s Cursed Watch:
  “Kim maybe fully paid for it and just didn't want it in her possession ... that's how much she was like, just get this motherfucker away from me.” —Brian Moylan (28:49)
• Carole’s Substack bio: “If [my new writing projects] do [see the light of day], she plans to sell them for an obscene amount of money, buy a castle in Antwerp and fuck off.” —Carole Radziwill (34:32)
• Defending Housewives’ Cultural Value:
  “Housewives never given anyone CTE. ... Housewives deserves the veneration that football gets in American culture and I will die on this hill.” —Brian Moylan (52:07)
• On the Secret Magic of Housewives:
  “On the surface, it's silly, petty fights. But then there really is—I mean, these are like women with very full, storied lives.” —Lyra Smith (58:15)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Carole’s Kennedy & Journalism Background: 02:12–05:08
• “Bookgate” Explained: 19:23–21:45
• The Lee Radziwill Couch Saga & Apartment: 22:03–23:39
• The Jackie O Cursed Watch & Kim Kardashian: 26:40–29:08
• Carole’s Political Storyline: 41:13–44:32
• Housewives as Female-Centric Storytelling: 51:10–53:06

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CONCLUSION: WHY CAROLE MATTERS

The episode paints Carole Radziwill as a pop culture anomaly—an accomplished journalist, a Kennedy by marriage, and a reality star who managed to maintain dignity, intellect, and an authentic sense of self. Through her, viewers see the permeability between America’s old aristocracy and its new celebrity class, and are reminded—amid the melodrama—of the real stakes beneath reality TV’s fiction.

Whether listeners are Kennedy buffs or Bravoholics, Carole’s story is a lens onto tragedy, reinvention, and the complicated joys of being a very modern American “princess.”

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Transcript

[Host 1]

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[Host 1]

What'S the first thing you think of when I say Carol Radzwell? I think of Real Housewives of New York. I think of Ghostwriter.

[Brian Moylan]

I think of her coming down to.

[Host 1]

Plummet with the commoners.

[Brian Moylan]

There was some sort of Lee Radzwell couch Twitter account at some point. It was just giving cultural and political point of view and commentary from what you would imagine.

[Host 1]

Sort of an uppity older woman and her husband was a Kennedy of some sort.

[Brian Moylan]

She was best friends with Carolyn Bassett and JFK Jr.

[Lyra Smith]

I'm George Severis. I'M Lyra Smith and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. E. Each week we go into one aspect of the Kennedys story and today we are talking about Carol Radswell.

[Host 1]

If you're a Bravo fan, then you've definitely heard of her. If not, don't worry.

[Lyra Smith]

Right. So for the bravaholics out there, you know her as a cast member of the Real Housewives of New York during its heyday from 2012 to 2018.

[Host 1]

I've heard about this Ms. Carol Radziwill.

[Brian Moylan]

And I'm surprised I haven't met her before.

[Host 1]

With her Kennedy ties. Carol was also in the inner circle of the Kennedy family. In the 90s. She married Jackie O's nephew, Anthony Radzwell, and was very close friends with JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette.

[Lyra Smith]

Anthony was the son of Lee Bouvier Radswell, so he was JFK Jr. S first cousin. And by all counts, Anthony and John were very close. They were each best man at the other's wedding.

[Host 1]

Carol worked in broadcast journalism for almost two decades. She started as a 2020 intern, then worked on the show Close up, and then moved to ABC News, where she produced shows on hefty topics like abortion and gun control. She was stationed in Iraq during the Gulf War and won an Emmy for a story on the landmines in Cambodia.

[Lyra Smith]

One of three Emmys that Carol has, in fact, along with a Peabody and a GLAAD Media Award. And these accolades have a way of coming up when Carol talks about her past. But she met Anthony while they were both producers at ABC News, and when they started dating, she was immediately swept into the Kennedy world. Her and Carolyn Bessette became best friends, and in Carol's memoir, she says of Carolyn, she made me believe I was captivating.

[Host 1]

Anthony suffered a long bout with cancer during his marriage to Carol, and sadly, he passed away just three weeks after the fatal 1999 plane crash that killed JFK Jr. Carolyn and Carolyn's sister, Lauren. In fact, Carol was the one who had to call Carolyn and Lauren's mother to explain that both of her daughters were gone.

[Lyra Smith]

So Carol lost the three people closest to her in the span of one month. It was an unimaginable series of tragedies for her to go through, and it's what she chronicled in her 2005 New York Times best selling memoir, what Remains.

[Host 1]

That'S a crash course on all things Carol Radswell. And we'll get into some of them with our guest but we will also get pretty into the weeds on all things Real Housewives, so. So fair warning, this one is for the real Bravo. Heads.

[Lyra Smith]

Without further ado, here with us today is author and Real Housewives anthropologist Brian Moylan. He is the author of the Real Story behind the Real Housewives, and he's also writer at Vulture. Brian, thank you so much for joining us.

[Brian Moylan]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Lyra Smith]

So, Brian, let's get right into it. You are obviously one of the foremost housewives experts.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes.

[Lyra Smith]

Just off the bat, what is your relationship to Carol Radswell?

[Brian Moylan]

Well, Carol Radzwell is one of my favorite housewives. And I've had brunch with her a couple times and met her out in the wild. It's usually the Housewives that I'm nice to that want to hang out with me. And I've kept in touch with Carol and talked. In Fire island, we once did a Housewives drag dinner, and everyone had to go dress as a Real Housewife. And I went as Carol Radzil, and she yelled at me because my hair wasn't good enough.

[Lyra Smith]

And so did she also go as a different housewife?

[Brian Moylan]

No, she wasn't there. It was just a bunch of boys dressed up.

[Lyra Smith]

Okay, got it, got it, got it.

[Host 1]

I mean, it was easy to be nice to her because she was so funny on Housewives, and she's from the ultimate cast.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. And she was the voice of reason more often than not. And so I think that's usually like the audience's way in. Right. And that's the one who we are kind of siding with and being like, yeah, Carol's the one who's right and sane amongst this cast of absolute crazies.

[Host 1]

I think, also because that was my introduction to Housewives was Roni, and with Carol, and Carol made me laugh. And it was always kind of interesting the way when people who'd never seen the show who didn't really understand, like, they're like, housewives, what's the story? What are they doing all day? But then my example would always be like, well, she's a Peabody Award winning news journalist. She's very. Has a very interesting backstory.

[Brian Moylan]

So, yes, yes. I always remind people that Housewives and Real Housewives are different things. Right. Like, a housewife is like Donna Reed at home with the vacuum cleaner. And like a Real Housewife, you know, has a job and has cool friends and is interesting and, you know, whatever. And Carol also, you know, all the other ladies were very Upper east side, but. And down Want to be socialites. And Carol was, like, the cool downtown one with, like, interesting friends. And, you know, she actually knew and, you know, before. And that's why she was on the show. And so she was kind of always set apart, I think, from everybody else. And it always seemed a little bit like the Housewives needed Carol more than Carol needed the housewives, which I think is a great way to position it, because, you know, you never like those ladies who are desperate, like, clawing on to the experience.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, there was almost. This is, you know, a very controversial comparison to make, but there's almost a Jenna Lyons quality where, like, yeah, Jenna Lyons was like an existing entity. If you were in certain circles in New York, you already knew who she was. She did not have to prove herself. And she could almost sort of remain above it while participating in this. Which is funny, because Carol. In a different era, someone like Carol Radswell would be seen as, like, I don't know, like, it would be seen as not classy that she's, like, taking advantage of her Kennedy connection to write a memoir and that she's, like, giving interviews about them, whatever. But because the housewives are so far in the other direction, she could then be the chic one. Like, she could be the. Like, the smart one, the voice of reason. Even though if you were to ask my mom, what do you think of Carol Radzell? She'd probably roll her eyes and be like, oh, she's just a social climber. But in the context of the Housewives, Carol was basically Princess Diana.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes, absolutely. Well, and that was, you know, like, the big quote unquote fight was that, you know, Luann was a countess, but Carol was a princess. So, you know, she could one up even the countess.

[Host 1]

I mean, there were so many instances where just Carol being there just illuminated how ridiculous their claims of authority were. And I always think about Sonja crying about how she used to party with Jon Jon, and it's like, well, Jon Jon was the best man at Carol's wedding. It's like, there's no comparison.

[Brian Moylan]

And Carol also tells Sonya, nobody who knows him calls him that. Like, he did not like it. Like, this is not like what we said. And so by Sonya even saying, like, I used to party with John John on the yacht, she's betraying the fact that she didn't really know him or know the real version of him that Carol knew. And, you know, but also, oh, God bless Sonya and her delusions.

[Lyra Smith]

I know. And you know what? Someone I know just met Sonya at some pool Party. And they were like. It was literally like the cameras were rolling. There's no. It's not like, an act she puts up when it's time.

[Brian Moylan]

No. I have interviewed Sonya multiple times for multiple stories. It's just like, I hit record and then let Sonya ramble on for half an hour and then mine that for quotes. Like, that's the best you're going to get with Sonya. And that's what, you know, people always ask me, like, oh, what are they like in real life? And they're exactly like they are on the show, down to a person, including Carol. Like, she's cool, she's smart, she's dishy. She's a little bit bitchy in a fun way. Like, just like, she's on the show. She is, like, in real life. And I think that that's what makes a great Housewife is someone who's not playing it up or trying to be someone they're not. It's just. They're just being themselves.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. And you touched on something that I also think is important, which is that she was always sort of the smart one. There was something. It's like, she used to be a journalist. She has Emmys, but also, like, she can read and write, and she's able to, like, do a little quip that isn't. If she has a little insult or a little shade that she's throwing. It's never like calling someone a whore. It gets a little more sophisticated than that.

[Brian Moylan]

It's like letting them know that Puerto Rico isn't a country. You know what I mean? It's like the baseline for Housewives is so in the basement that, you know, they have no idea what's going on. And Carol just goes like, yeah, no, that's how you pronounce this word. And she looks like she has seven PhDs and speaks 19 languages, you know?

[Lyra Smith]

Right, exactly. She almost has this, like, Sarah Jessica Parker quality of being able to be both high and low. Like, she's actually able to really play in the Housewives playpen. It's not like she's, like, on the corner being like, oh, God, these women are so, like, you know, gauche. Like, she's able to, like, keep up, but then also maintains a sort of level of superiority.

[Brian Moylan]

Absolutely. And I think that essentially she never, like, backed down from a fight, you know, when people came for her, like Aviva did about her book, or when she and Bethany Frankel eventually had their falling out. It's like Carol could go toe to toe with the best of them, you know, but she wasn't one who was necessari dramatic or like inciting the kind of drama she was usually one responding to it. Which I think is, I would like to hope the position most of us would find ourselves in if we were at a housewife show. You know, like I'm not going to throw wine at anybody, but if someone throws wine at me, you better watch the out. You know what I'm saying? And that's what Carol gave.

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[Lyra Smith]

So we mentioned Jon Jon a little bit. This is obviously a podcast about the Kennedys. I'm sure there are some people that have started listening to this that are not Housewives fans, that are already like.

[Brian Moylan]

Who threw what wine and who speaking? Ms. Sonia.

[Lyra Smith]

So. So tell us, basically, at the most basic level, what is Carol's relationship to the Kennedy family?

[Brian Moylan]

So I think to put it in, like, Housewives context, you know, the Housewives Real Estate of New York City was the second franchise and kind of the first, like, standout. You know, like, they started with Orange county, and then once you got to New York, the media started covering in a different way because it was happening in their own backyards. They started getting the gossip columns, whatever. It kind of took off. Bethany Franco was the biggest star that it launched, and she started Skinny Girl Margaritas, which she sold reportedly for $100 million. And that kind of proved, like, the cachet of the whole Housewives machine, as it were. After Bethany left, the show kind of took a turn for the worst, and they fired half the cast and rehired three new women as a kind of soft reboot at one of whom was Carol Radziwill, and she was married to Anthony Radziwill, who is Lee Radziwill's only son, who' father was a Polish prince of some sort. I don't know how Polish aristocracy works. I only know what I was told on the Housewives, and that's what we were told.

[Lyra Smith]

So Leah Adswell's husband was the prince. Yeah, Ads Will, of course, is Jackie's sister.

[Brian Moylan]

Exactly. And so Anthony's first cousins are John and Caroline Kennedy. Yes. And so not all the Kennedys. Not the Vaccine Denier Kennedy's just the, you know, good Kennedys.

[Host 1]

The classic set.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes, that's right.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes, the classic set. And they were very close. They were very good friends. And Carol and Anthony were very good friends with John and Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. And so they were kind of like a foursome who would hang out a lot. And right around the same time that they died, the plane crashed. Anthony died of cancer at a very young age. And so Carol wrote a memoir called what Remains, which is about her dealing with the grief of losing not only her husband, but also her two best friends as well, and how she dealt with this and it was a huge success, Very well regarded in terms of the writing of it. It's actually a great book. And she went on Oprah to talk about it was a huge success. And that kind of made her name. She. She had started as a journalist for ABC News. That's where she met Anthony, who was also a journalist. And. Yeah, so she had this kind of pedigree as being both a writer and a journalist and a smart person connected to the Kennedys, a princess, whatever. So as they're trying to reboot Housewives, that is, you know, what they were looking for is somebody with all of those deep connections and deep kind of New York City experience to help bring the show to a new level. Joining her on the cast were Heather Thompson, who was a fashion designer who worked with jlo P. Diddy, amongst others. And Heather kind of became her bestie on the show. And then the other newbie was Aviva Drescher, who was an unhinged wannabe socialite with one leg. And, I mean, ooh, girl, that Aviva Drescher. And Aviva kind of became Carol's biggest antagonist during her kind of early years.

[Host 1]

On the show, which I felt so bad for Aviva because it's like, you do not have the chops to go up against this person who is very intelligent, very quick, and is not gonna, you know, use a leg as a prop. Like, that was so shocking and weird and far from, like, Carol's mindset.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes. And for anyone who isn't a Housewives viewer, Aviva did take off her leg and throw it.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. In her last scene ever on the Housewives, Aviva threw her leg at everybody, and it was crazy. Also, I forgot to mention, when Carol started on the show, she was dating one of the band members of Aerosmith. She was connected to Aerosmith. And so on their first cast trip as a group, they go to St. Barts, and he's there, like, with Aerosmith, like, doing a concert. Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

Russ Irwin, singer, songwriter, producer. And Carol was in the video for his 2012 song called Manhattan.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. As she would be. And so the first season, you know, Carol's the voice of reason. She's kind of chilling with the new lady. She's a little bit in the background being funny, commenting on it adjacent to the drama, but not part of it, which was a great place for her to start and a good way for fans to connect with her. Her second season, she's right in the middle of it when Aviva, the leg thrower extraordinaire, brings back this rumor. She heard that Carol used a ghostwriter on her book, which is a storyline that fans refer to as bookgate. And Aviva says, you didn't write your book. And Carol's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course I wrote this book. It's about my grief. Whatever. And there are a lot of accusations waged by housewives against each other. They usually involve, like, renting one's house instead of owning a husband who cheats borrowing clothes and not buying them. You know, kind of the petty bullshit that housewives caters in that we all love and is nice and light, and who cares who's right, who cares who's wrong? This, to me, was, like, a really big deal, especially as a writer and a journalist, for someone to say like you, you can't do the thing that you are known for.

[Host 1]

Also her incredibly personal story.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes, yes.

[Host 1]

It's an insane accusation.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. And I mean, obviously anybody who works as a writer knows there's a team. She has editors. She had copy editors. But never in my mind did I doubt that Carol had her fingers on the keyboard, like, you know, writing the book. And, you know, I've ghosted in a housewife memoir. No shame in the game, you know, and good on the women who know that they need the help. But Carol obviously didn't need it. And so, you know, and it was basically like Carol's word against Aviva's word. And she even did a scene where she goes to her book editor records with her. The book editor says, no, you didn't use a ghostwriter. Whatever. But Aviva kept banging on this drum, banging on this drum. And, you know, there's a famous part. It's a reunion for that season. I believe it's season six. And Carol calls her something and there says something not very funny. And Aviva says, why don't you use your words, writer girl? So that's kind of what, like, fans will often refer to Carol Radzell as writer girl, thanks to Aviva's even worse put down of Carol.

[Host 1]

But something I was surprised about on the show because I guess when I was watching this, I didn't realize how close she was to the Kennedys that she is a part of, you know, is a part of the Kennedy family. And what are some of the more intimate details that she talks about with her relationship with Carolyn and JFK Jr.

[Brian Moylan]

She doesn't actually talk a lot about it on the show. I think that on the show, the first little thing you get is she has Lee Radziwill's old couch, old tiger print couch that's been really beat up. And she has this crazy apartment downtown. And the stairs are like in the wall, there's no railing and it looks like a death trap. And then she has Lee Radziwill's couch. And so. Yeah. And she talks about how she had a good relationship with her mother in law and it continued after Anthony's death. They weren't especially close, but they were still in good stead with each other. Yeah, but that she has Lee's couch. That's how close they were. It's like she's taking her cast off furniture and she didn't want to reupholster the couch because it was Lee's. But then eventually she does, which become like a storyline on the Housewives. Because that's what we do, people. We're talking about redesigned projects and thrown legs.

[Lyra Smith]

I mean, reupholstering Lee Radswold's couch is as good a housewife storyline as any. I've. I've heard.

[Host 1]

I loved it.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. I want to just pause on the apartment a bit because there's something about her apartment. It's like she almost lives this bachelor lifestyle. Even the tiger print couch, like, it's like in the same way that when you look at the Upper east side ones, their houses look like the Gossip Girl version of what you think an Upper east side townhouse is. Her apartment is almost comically like if someone did like very broad set design in a movie about what like a sexy widow who's dating a 27 year old's apartment might look like.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. Like it's not Sex in the City. It's like Lipstick Jungle.

[Lyra Smith]

Exactly.

[Brian Moylan]

You know what I mean?

[Lyra Smith]

Yes.

[Brian Moylan]

That's the feel you get for it. But it's also. Yeah. Very real and very authentic. And I think that you kind of like it to Sarah Jessica Parker. I really like in her more it's Carrie Bradshaw where she's this downtown writer girl. And then her storyline after season six with Book Gate, she breaks up with Russ, the Aerosmith guy, and she starts dating a much younger gentleman named Adam, who's a vegan chef who was dating Countess Luann's niece, I believe.

[Lyra Smith]

Was it niece or daughter?

[Host 1]

It was niece Victoria.

[Brian Moylan]

No, it was not Victoria. It was the niece. And the niece was on the Sarah Jessica Parker art show on Bravo. Do you remember this? There was one season, Sarah Jessica Parker produced it.

[Lyra Smith]

Got it.

[Brian Moylan]

And Luann niece was. She's an artist. Was on it. And so.

[Host 1]

Oh, yes.

[Brian Moylan]

In Carol's Telling of the story, I.

[Lyra Smith]

Think it was called work of art. Work of art.

[Brian Moylan]

You are correct, yes. And in Carol's telling of the story, Adam had broken up with Denise a long time ago, and Luann hired him to be a chef at her house when all the women were in the Hamptons. That's where Carol met him and started dating him. And then Luann accuses Carol of breaking girl code by dating this guy who Luann says was still together with her niece at this time. And if that wasn't the case. Case. Even if she wasn't, Luann's basically kind of like, you're dating the help. And Carol's like, well, I don't give a shit. He's young and hot and he's Adam and he's a vegan chef. And so that kind of plays in also to her very like Carrie Bradshaw mystique, I guess.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, exactly. She has this quality of being able to both do something so definitionally tacky as dating her friend's niece's 27 year old ex boyfriend, but then also who's a vegan chef. Who's a vegan chef, but also so, like staying above it and speaking in the softer voice as anyone and just being like, why is Luann being so annoying right now? Like, I'm just trying to live my life. Like, she really is able to have it both ways. I think she has a charisma that enables her to somehow pull that off. I think other people could not pull that off.

[Host 1]

I think Carrie Bradshaw in and just like that basically wrote that book like it's on her bookshelf.

[Brian Moylan]

No, 100%. And I think, like, speaking to Carol's charisma, a lot of the stuff on the Housewives comes down to she said versus she said. Right. Carol says she wrote the book, Aviva says she does it. Carol says they were broken up. Luann says they weren't. And I think that because Carol is the sane one, because she's the voice of reason, she's the one. At least I always believed it's like, well, if Carol says it, it's true, you know, because these other women are crazy and they make shit up and they're bending the truth and they're trying to make drama. And Carol is just always such, like a straight shooter that you never questioned. At least I did her version of the truth.

[Host 1]

And so, like you were saying she had. I remember the Lee Radzwill couch. That was really, I think, how I learned how closely connected she was to the Kennedys. But Then also, pretty recently, she did the moth story about Jackie O's watch. Did you listen to that or watch that?

[Brian Moylan]

No, I did not. But I know what my first YouTube is going to be after we're done. Okay.

[Host 1]

When I was.

[Brian Moylan]

When I turned 30, my husband gave me a Cartier tank watch that had.

[Host 1]

Once belonged to his aunt Jackie Kennedy.

[Lyra Smith]

It's really fascinating, and it really sort of relates to a lot of our interests over here at the United States of Kennedy. Mostly supernatural curses that afflict the Kennedy family. So the story is basically that Carol was gifted Jackie Kennedy's Cartier tank that she had worn kind of her whole life. It was a gift to her. And then she wore it her whole life. She was, I believe, wearing it when JFK was assassinated. And then Carol started wearing it. And then her husband, of course, died of cancer, then started feeling as though there was a negative aura attached to it. So she hid it in her drawer for many years and didn't want to look at it. Then she ended up gifting it to a friend of hers named Cassandra. And then Cassandra's husband also died of cancer. And so Carol was like, this watch is cursed. It has belonged to three women, all of whom are widowed in their 30s. I'm going to put it up for sale at Christie's, and hopefully Cartier will buy it back and I will never have to think of it again. And, Lyra, do you want to tell us who ended up buying the watch?

[Host 1]

Kim Kardashian.

[Lyra Smith]

Kim Kardashian ended up bidding on the watch and buying it.

[Brian Moylan]

You know why? She's trying to kill Kanye.

[Lyra Smith]

I did have this thought where I was like, kim, how old is Kim? Kim? No, she's 44. Okay. So she's managed to not be widowed in her 30s. Sorry to be so macabre, but Kanye is not doing well. And this can't be good to have the negative.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Her buying the watch, I think did predate a lot of his more public mental health extreme issues. And people do liken it to that. It's destroying a marriage.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

And the news sort of got back to Kim that this watch was, quote, unquote, cursed. And she, in fact, returned it. She does. She's not in possession of it. Cartier ended up buying it back, and it's now in the vault in the basement of the Fifth Avenue store. Kim maybe fully paid for it and just didn't want it in her possession. It's not like she returned it for the money that she paid. That's how much she was like, just.

[Brian Moylan]

Like, get this motherfucker away from me.

[Lyra Smith]

No, literally.

[Brian Moylan]

How much did Carol get for it?

[Lyra Smith]

You know, Carol has this way of not quite saying how much money she has or how much money she makes or what her sort of financials are at any given time, but I'm sure it was a pretty good check.

[Host 1]

I'm sure you could liken it to other Jackie O auction items.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah, I will say I don't think I'm betraying any confidence here, but Carol has said multiple times that she went on Housewives for the money. So I don't think she's, like, sitting on some secret Polish prince fortune. She has an apartment and she has a Jackie O watch. I think she's comfortable, but. Oh, girl, that watch.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, I mean, I know.

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[Brian Moylan]

So eventually after Adam the Adam storyline, Carol befriended Betsy Frankel, who was this not just Roni's breakout star, but probably the biggest housewife star there is. Still a big star though. She's not Housewives anymore. Like a big TikTok influencer. Millions and millions of followers, they became very close and then had a falling out. And Bethany attributed it to Carol seeming to not want to spend as much time with her, not paying much attention to her. And Carol said, my best friend's husband was dying and I was helping her. So that kind of factors into her event, the dissolution of her friendship with Bethenny Frankel, which becomes kind of Carol's last big story on Housewives before her exit.

[Lyra Smith]

And then she exits basically saying she wants to go back to journalism, but then also ends up having a falling out with Andy Cohen, which lasts like seven years. They like don't talk for seven years. And it was only recently squashed when she made a surprise appearance on Watch what Happens Live. And she claims she's not gonna re enter the Bravo universe, but who knows? And so that's where Carol is now. And I will say I found out just this morning that she's now on Substack. So she has the journalism dream is alive and well. And I actually wrote down she has this great she's only written one post and it was July 31st, so the clock is ticking. But she has this really great bio of hers that she wrote and to your point, about her not using a ghostwriter, she does have a specific voice. Like maybe someone spruced it up. But there's a way she writes that is very like it's honestly like columnist voice. It is Carrie Bradshaw columnist voice. There's a little aside, a little joke, then she has one sentence that sort of ties it all together. She has this one part that I thought was fun in her first post where she's like, I've decided to write about my life here on substack because, well, why not? And then she goes expect musings, parentheses a word people use when they're not quite sure what they're saying yet that's funny to make fun of the trope of saying musings. And then my favorite thing is at the very end, she writes her bio. It's five paragraphs, I won three Emmys, blah, blah. And then at the end it goes, carol's working on a bunch of writing projects that may or may not ever see the light of day, but if they do, she plans to sell them for an obscene amount of money, buy a castle in Antwerp and fuck off. And that's like the final sentence of her five paragraph bio. It's like, Sonya can't write that, so.

[Brian Moylan]

No, Aviva Joseph certainly can't write that. You know, not even with a ghostwriter. Shit. So, yeah. Oh, good for Carol. Yeah. And she has said repeatedly, and this was before her kind of cooling of things with it. So what happened with Andy Cohen? So they were friendly before the show. The story goes that Carol was friends with Kelly Ripa and Marcus Willis, who are very good friends with Andy Cohen. He met her at a dinner party at Kelly Ripa's house, found out she was a princess, found out the whole story was like, you have to be on Housewives. And really pursued her and convinced her to do the show. Not necessarily against her will, but, you know, took a lot of cajoling. And so then at the final reunion, Carol felt like Andy was taking Bethany's side in their argument and that he was favoring her, letting her speak more, getting in more sides, and Bethany quicker than Carol and a lot more biting than Carol and a lot meaner. And when she comes for somebody, she really comes for somebody. And so there's a moment in the reunion where Carol is basically, you know, fuck off me. Like, fudge you to Andy, because she feels like he wasn't having her back. And so that's what caused their feud. And then she went on and didn't really talk trash about the house artists, but when she would do press or do appearances, she talked about how she's never coming back. I'm never coming back to the show. I'm never going to do it again. And I really believed her. And so the Housewives has a thing called Ultimate Girls Trip where they get a bunch of former housewives together and they send them on a trip and they film it for a week. And they did one with all former Real Housewives in New York, and Carol didn't do that. And she said every time she's asked, she doesn't want to go back. So I can see her now that relations have cooled between her And Andy being an occasional guest on Watch what Happens live, showing up to do the this or that kind of Bravo kind of thing. But, yeah, I don't see her wanting to be on another show. Probably wisely.

[Host 1]

She left on top.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

As a housewife.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. I mean, the Bethany thing is funny because we've talked a lot about how Carol was always above the fray, but the friendship with Bethany from the beginning was a ticking time bomb, because you knew if Bethany turns on you, it's over. And Carol could not stand up to someone as domineering as Bethany.

[Brian Moylan]

But of all the people to go against Bethany, Carol, I think had the best chance. And I think that because fans were always on her side, fans believed her. And there's this famous scene in season three of Braille Housewives where Ramona Singer and Bethenny Frankel go on a walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, and a Ramona Singer says to Bethany, you don't have any friends. None of your relationships last. Like, you can't. Whatever. And we have seen that to be true over the course of decades on reality television. And Carol was just another one of them. And Bethany blows up these friendships, you know, And Bethany said Carol wasn't spending enough time with her. Carol was saying, Bethany is too domineering. She wants it all to be about herself. It all has to be on Bethany's terms, whatever. And then. And that's exactly what we saw of Bethany's character on the show. And so I was always hashtag Team Carol, as it were, in the fight. But, yes, but Bethany's so smart, so quick, so mean, that plenty of people were coming for Bethany because she was always the alpha. She was the rich one. She was the one who proved herself. And everyone always failed. But Carol did some damage, I think, on her way down and out of the show, going sparring with Bethany just by showing Bethany how crazy she was.

[Host 1]

It just also seems like Bethany just has the inner motivation drive to inhabit the role of the Bravo liberty that Carol doesn't seem to have.

[Lyra Smith]

Bethany's a shark. If Carol is a fabulous columnist, Bethany's an insult comic. Like, she's gonna tear you down.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes, well, and you're right. Bethany has always wanted to be famous in a way where Carol was reluctantly famous. And I think that makes a really good housewife is somebody who doesn't want it too Bradley, doesn't want the fame too much. And we don't see Carol going on Celebrity Wife Swap. We don't see her on Image Rehab, Reality Star Edition. She's not had A celebrity Big Brother. She's left Housewives and kept it quiet. And so I think that speaks to the difference between her and Bethany. Bethany is no longer on Housewives, but she's always on TikTok. She's had another Bravo show. She was on Shark Tank. She's always trying to keep that fame alive in a way that Carol doesn't seem interested in.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, Carol, I think, always wants to have one foot in journalism. I don't think she's ready or willing or being given the opportunity to go back and produce docuseries in Kabul, but she wants to, like, have a column. She was at some point a contributing writer to Town and Country. She wants to be seen as someone who writes for magazines, whereas Bethany wants to be a television star. Speaking of the beauty of female friendship, we should talk a little bit about Carol's friendship with Carolyn, which is a huge part of the book. In my memory of the book, the central love story is almost more Carol and Carolyn than it is Carol and Anthony. There is just something so magnetic about Carolyn, and Carol is so taken with it. There's this amazing scene where their first ever interaction was that they were staying in the house in the Hamptons, and It was the two couples, Carolyn, Anthony, Carolyn and JFK Jr. And Carolyn's first words to Carol were, can I borrow your toothbrush? Because she had forgotten her toothbrush. But it's like, what an incredible sort of, like, doming thing to say to someone we've just met. Can I borrow your toothbrush? And it should actually be your honor for me to use your toothbrush.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah, well. And I think that she seems to have a lot of the same thing Carol has, like, downtown cool, knows the right people, goes to the right places, does the right things in a way that Carol really vibed with. And you see that too in the early days with Bethany or her relationship before Bethany shows up on the scene with Heather Thompson. Carol always found one person, and that was her bestie. And I think that it's almost like re replicating that relationship we read about in the book that she had with Carolyn.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, it's almost this comfort with being the supporting actress. It's like, I want to be best friends with the head cheerleader, and I'm safe because I am under her protection.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah, she's like the Judy Greer character in the rom com. Exactly. That's like the cool, funny best friend. She doesn't want to be the star of the rom com.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes.

[Brian Moylan]

And then maybe.

[Host 1]

And that is the nature of a journalist. Totally the mindset of a journalist is to be there. Yes, is to be as centrally located as possible, but not to be the story.

[Brian Moylan]

Right.

[Lyra Smith]

To be close to power in this.

[Brian Moylan]

Way and to be commenting on it and reporting on it in a way that you saw her doing on the show. And not to change the subject away from female friendships, but I think another thing we need to remark about Carol's time on the Housewives is Housewives is inherently an apolitical place. We don't often talk about politics. I would argue it is one of the few purple things left in America where there are fans who are red, there are fans who are blue, and everyone can agree on these fighting women. However, Carol made it a big storyline that she was going to go out canvassing for Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, and she made that kind of central to the storyline. She had a watch party that she invited all these people to, excited to see the first female president be crowned, et cetera. And we all know how that story ended.

[Host 1]

I'm having an election party, but I'm really in my mind getting ready to celebrate the first female president. All my friends are coming, even my.

[Brian Moylan]

Republican friends, and I'm looking forward to.

[Host 1]

Watching the polls come in. This election is taken its toll on some friendships.

[Brian Moylan]

So I am glad that is finally coming to an end and we can.

[Host 1]

Move on to bigger and better things.

[Lyra Smith]

And that was a real, almost like breaking the fourth wall moment or something, because you are really just not meant to think too hard about what these women's political views are. And especially in that era of New York. Many of them, in fact, were Trump supporters.

[Brian Moylan]

Like, just bluntly, Ramona Singer hangs out at Mar A Lago and introduced Kelly Dodd to her husband, who's a Fox News correspondent. Like she is as red hat as you're gonna get.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's not surprising. The other aspect of the breaking the fourth wall for me is that a lot of times the Housewives live, you're watching the show after the fact, but it's not necessarily tied to a strict timeline. They exist in this kind of amorphous universe where time is relative and they are not a part of reality. And that's part of what enables you to suspend reality and, I don't know, just kind of check out.

[Lyra Smith]

It's meant to be escapism. They are meant to be these campy, draggy characters that you can follow independent of what's going on in the world. And you're not seeing them be like, did you get the news notification from the New York times they have a brunch to attend.

[Brian Moylan]

And I think that part of the secret to the housewives enduring appeal is that they're always acquiring new fans and you can go about back and watch it. Other than the styles in hair, clothing and decor and maybe which restaurants they'll go to, there's nothing to tie it to time. It could be last week, it could be 20 years ago. These relationships amongst women don't really change. So having this political storyline is one of the few things that ties it to a time and place. And it's the first and perhaps last time that we have had a political discussion on the Real Housewives that I think part of that has to do with the failure of Carol's toying with this political storyline.

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[Glenn Washington]

Youm think you know Snap Judgment. Yes, it's on NPR. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up for.

[Brian Moylan]

Welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame.

[Glenn Washington]

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[Host 1]

Brian the first time we met actually was many, many years ago when I was the engineer for Bitch Sesh. And you. Oh my God, yes, you were ghostwriting Housewife memoir. Can I. Yes. Can I say.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah, you can say who?

[Host 1]

Okay. Yeah, you were doing Erika Jayne's memoir, which is very much close to this in my mind of how the reality of her and her politics and her ethics and her husband in the news kind of ruined the being able to let go of all that. For me at least watching the show, it was like, no, now this is really real.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. No, absolutely. And when I was arguing with Erica, it was before. Yeah, all this stuff about her husband came out. We didn't really talk about it a lot. I keep in touch with Erica a bit here and there. But yeah, I think you're right. Social media and the Internet have become more and more a part of the show and we are seeing the women filming in real time and we're knowing how they feel about things based on what they post on the Internet, etc. Etc. Like their politics and their how they act in the real world has come onto the show more and more and the harsh reality is a lot of them are a lot more red than some of their blue friends and fans like myself would want to believe. So yes, I'm happy to keep the politics stuff off the like, as long as they're not talking about it, I'm happy to ignore it. But there was a big kerfuffle with Aaron Leechy, who was a new Real Housewife in New York after Carol left and she donated money to Trump and then tried to deny it. And so it comes up a little bit. But we never saw any of that in the show. That's more of the social media and the deeper corners of the fandom where they're going on Reddit and talking about this kind of stuff as opposed to you just watch the show you have.

[Host 1]

No clue about, just to bring it back to Carolyn. That was something I enjoyed. I know it goes against the form, but I felt like I brought, like, a real, like, legitimacy to the conflict that they had was to know that she really cared about this and the other ones really didn't.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes. And right. And there was a whole fan thing about how Tinsley Mortimer, who was kind of a socialite at the time, didn't vote in the election. You know, so then it was like, people went and looked how everybody voted or if they voted, whatever, and Tinsley hadn't voted. And so then they had a. Convinced her to vote the next time or whatever.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah.

[Brian Moylan]

But I also think that to the purpleness of Housewives, that moment kind of played to both sides still. Like, those of us who were Hillary supporters are like, I feel how you feel and going through it. You know, it's usually six months, nine months after the events happen that we see them on television. And so you're reminded of that night. Six to nine months later was very difficult for a lot of us blue people. And for a lot of the red people, it was the look at these liberal tears like we're owning the libs celebration. And so even though it was clearly showing Carol's viewpoint on a political matter, I think that for fans, it could still be read in different ways.

[Lyra Smith]

I do think it is fitting that all three of us are very pro Carol, because she does sort of stroke the ego of a certain coastal liberal. Watching the Real Housewives, wanting to think of it as not trash TV and wanting to think of it as more sophisticated. And, you know, there's this trend over the last 10 years of people being like. Like, Real Housewives is actually, like, Shakespearean and Bravo is actually not low culture and all this stuff. And I think it's sort of like we think of her almost like, as an avatar for people that are more like our friends, and they're like creatives that live in New York City and live downtown and whatever else. And so I do think what she represents in the Housewives is like what the Kennedys represent in American politics. It's like hope and progress in this irredeemable milieu.

[Brian Moylan]

So this is one of my hobby horses. So excuse me, but for all the Kennedy fans who have listened this far about Housewives and are like, this sounds stupid. It is trash tv. What the fuck are you guys talking about? I do think that it is very biased in that reality television, especially the Housewives, is a very female space. And it is stories by, for and about women, and those are often discounted. And we're told it's trash. We're told it's guilty pleasures. We're told because they're about domestic matters like marriages and divorces and friendships and kids, whatever, that those stories aren't worthy. And I think that that's. And I think that this is one of the few places that we can see women of a certain age interact with each other in groups. You're not getting that in scripted television. You're not getting that anywhere else. And people look down on it, and we enjoy it. It is our escapism. It's something we love to talk about. In the same way that football is something that people love to talk about and people love to watch Housewives never given anyone cte. Okay. Football, on the other hand, violent, damaging, terrible, promotes all the worst impulses in America. And we love it. Billion dollar industry, whatever. But that it's worse than Housewives. Housewives deserves the veneration that football gets in American culture. And I will die on this hill. I will die in this hill.

[Host 1]

And that's led to a different kind of rehab for quite a few of them.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah.

[Brian Moylan]

And fraud and prison. And I'm not saying it's all good all the way through.

[Host 1]

No, no, no.

[Brian Moylan]

I'm just saying.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, no. And among the audiences, you know, the worst anyone has ever gotten from Housewives is Reddit induced borderline personality disorder.

[Brian Moylan]

Absolutely. 100%, yes.

[Host 1]

To me, the big thing is the women of a certain age. That's what draws me to it, and that's what I find the most interesting. I can't get in on the younger housewives. I like to see the older women that I don't see anywhere else.

[Brian Moylan]

Well, and to get back to your watch, you know, there was a certain era when Carol was on where I said that Real Housewives was a show about people who are haunted. Carol has this curse watch. Dorinda Medley has a red balloon that is the spirit of her husband. Tinsley Mortimer is mourning the life of a socialite that she lost. Bethenny Frankel is mourning a disastrous marriage and her lonely childhood. You know, Sonja Morgan is haunted by the life of her ex husband that she can't let go of. It's about these women who are stuck in this place. And for a while, Carol, amongst all the women, they're all single, they're all divorcees or widows, and they're trying to live a life to get back to the Carrie Bradshaw metaphor. And just like that before, and just like that was. And just like that and a much better version of it, because it was real and believable. While they were rich, they weren't like a whole house in Gramercy. Rich.

[Lyra Smith]

One of the sort of funny things that has been popping up on my feeds over the last few years is Carol Radzwell's photos with Ghislaine Maxwell. It's like this thing that keeps coming up and then she was on some sort of Epstein contact list. Obviously the reason I'm not accusing her of anything, the reason is obviously just because she was in circles with society people and those people overlapped with Ghislaine and with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Brian Moylan]

What is your take on Ghislaine took Carol's author photo for what remains her memoir about the Kennedys. Like the, the credit on it is Glenn Maxwell and yeah, and so I don't think Carol knew of any wrong do. I mean, I don't know. I haven't talked to Carol about it. But yeah, I know people who knew her just from being around that set of people and they were friendly, whatever. But yeah, Carol, I tell you, I bet she has some stories for us.

[Lyra Smith]

I know, I know. Well, maybe now on her sub stack she can expose Ghislaine or So I.

[Brian Moylan]

Mean, does the Glenn need to be exposed? Right?

[Lyra Smith]

No, I guess she is already in prison.

[Brian Moylan]

I would be curious to hear just Carol's take on it or being that close to it or if there was things then that she was like, oh, that's a little weird. And that now that she knows the full story, she could look back on all of that.

[Host 1]

Wild. I did have one last question because this was where I learned that she was the one who had to make the phone calls when their plane was missing. Yes, it was on Housewives that she discussed that.

[Lyra Smith]

She talks about it in the memoir. She says that Carolyn and JFK Jr. Boarded this plane, they were going to Hyannis Port and this guy named Pinky who was supposed to pick them up at the airport calls Carol and says they're not there. And so, you know, in her own telling, her reporter instincts kick in and she starts calling everyone who might have information about them, ultimately ending in calling the Coast Guard and becoming more and more panicked as she's making these calls. She talks about having all these post it notes on the wall of the different phone numbers she's calling, blah, blah. And then ultimately she is the one who calls Carolyn's mom, Carolyn and Lauren's mom because of course Lauren, Carolyn's sister, was also on the plane. And so Carol has to basically break the news to Carolyn's mom that both of her daughters were potentially in a fatal plane crash. Which I really had not realized. You assume someone like Carol massages the truth when it comes to her proximity to these famous people. She is, after all, a reality star. She's a memoirist, whatever. But she was close enough that she's quite literally the person who broke the news to Carolyn Bessette's mom.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

And there's all these other stories about Carolyn. Carolyn apparently kept begging Carol to get a therapist because of everything Carol was going through. But. Yeah, so this is something she said in the show, Lyra.

[Host 1]

I have a memory of her saying it in the show, but tell me if I'm wrong, Brian, because I feel.

[Brian Moylan]

Like I don't remember it.

[Host 1]

But not about talking to their mother. But she is saying. She says she is the one who made the call, made the phone calls.

[Brian Moylan]

And that I believe there's also an incident. I don't know if you remember this, but Carol lived in London for a bit, and Dorinda Medley, who was one of her castmates whose husband also died, also lived in London. And they have a trip where they go back because Carol interred Anthony's ashes in a church in England that his father had built, and they were tearing the church down, and so she has to go back to London to get the ashes. And there's this kind of famous scene where Carol's like, you know, has this very emotional heart to heart discussion with Dorinda about being young widows and how they dealt with all that. And she's lying on the bed with the burn of ashes next to her in her headphones on, trying to collect herself as become like, you know, for Housewives fans, a silly meme. So you see Carol, even still on the show, like, dealing with this grief. And so amongst her, fighting with Bethenny Frankel, writer girl, Adam, the stupid chef, whatever. There's. There's still that undercurrent of tragedy that you read about in the memoir that carries on into the show and obviously affected her. Probably still affects her to this day.

[Lyra Smith]

Mm.

[Host 1]

I mean, that's like the secret magic of the show. On the surface, it's silly, petty fights. But then there really is. I mean, these are like women with very full, storied lives.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

And speaking of Dorinda, Dorinda's husband also worked under Bill Clinton, so there is a sort of of blue versus red alliance happening there. Like, when I think of Dorinda and Carol, I'm like, okay, I'm safe. We're in blue country.

[Brian Moylan]

Yes, agree, Agree.

[Host 1]

Bluestone Manor.

[Lyra Smith]

That's right, Bluestone Manor. Of course.

[Brian Moylan]

Yeah. God bless it.

[Host 1]

Thank you so much for coming on to talk to us about Carole Radswell.

[Brian Moylan]

No, thank you for having me.

[Lyra Smith]

This was an absolute delight. And your breadth of knowledge about the Housewives is truly, you know, you deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Host 1]

That's it for this week's episode Episode.

[Lyra Smith]

Next week we're talking Chappaquiddick, the film starring Kate Mara, Jason Clark and Ed Helms.

[Host 1]

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

[Glenn Washington]

Thursday Night Football is back and it's only on Prime Video.

[Brian Moylan]

Breaking the tackle touchdown.

[Glenn Washington]

This Thursday, the Washington Commanders take on the Green Bay path, both ready to come out strong.

[Brian Moylan]

Heck of a draw.

[Glenn Washington]

Coverage begins at 7pm Eastern with Football's Best Party TNF tonight presented by Verizon.

[Lyra Smith]

Not a Prime member?

[Glenn Washington]

Not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. Today it's the Commanders and the packers Thursday at 7pm Eastern only on Prime Video.

[Lyra Smith]

Restrictions apply.

[Glenn Washington]

See Amazon.com amazonprime for details.

[Host 1]

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[Glenn Washington]

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[Host 1]

This is an iHeart podcast.