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- [00:00]
Jana Kramer
This is an I Heart podcast. This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. When we were deciding on our appliances for the house, Samsung was at the top of our list. And I love my Samsung appliances, especially because they're so reliable. And with my busy schedule, having reliable appliances has been a game changer. It's no wonder Samsung is the number one brand for customer satisfaction. That's why I'm excited to tell you all about Samsung's new line of smart appliances. Featuring their brand new Bespoke AI laundry combo, this incredible magic machine washes and dries in one machine, one load. No transfers, no timers, no rewashing needed. New Bespoke AI appliances. This is home living made simple. For more information visit samsung.com bespoke 68.
- [00:50]
George Severis
Minute cycle based on 27 inch combos based on using a super speed cycle only with a 10 pound doe load cotton 50% plus polyester 50%. Individual results may vary based on actual load content.
- [01:00]
Liz McNeil
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- [01:32]
Jana Kramer
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- [01:59]
Liz McNeil
Iheart that's greenlight.com iheart heart it's Wednesday.
- [02:04]
Jana Kramer
Night after a long day and the.
- [02:06]
Liz McNeil
Last thing you want to do is.
- [02:07]
Lyra Smith
Cook dinner from scratch.
- [02:09]
Liz McNeil
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- [02:41]
Lyra Smith
What do you think of when I say Chappaquiddick?
- [02:44]
George Severis
Well, I think of Ted Kennedy, and I think of him getting himself into.
- [02:50]
Jana Kramer
Trouble with a young woman and a.
- [02:52]
George Severis
Bridge and some drinking and a lot of ass covering. That's my general memory. I'm George Severis.
- [03:14]
Lyra Smith
I'm Lyra Smith.
- [03:15]
George Severis
And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about Chappaquiddick.
- [03:27]
Lyra Smith
Yes. Which immediately makes me think about the show's succession.
- [03:32]
George Severis
Okay, I'm listening.
- [03:33]
Lyra Smith
I was obsessed with succession. The HBO show about an unimaginably wealthy and powerful family. And the season one finale involved Kendall, the eldest boy, getting into a car accident where a passenger drowns, which is a very clear reference to a tragic Kennedy event referred to now as simply Chappaquiddick.
- [03:56]
George Severis
And the whole thing is a very big flashpoint in the Kennedy chronology. So before we get into the details, just to clear up a few things, Chappaquiddick is a place. It is an island off the coast of Massachusetts. But the shorthand Chappaquiddick nowadays references the event itself.
- [04:12]
Lyra Smith
So when succession fervor was at its height and it was all anyone was talking about, I had so many conversations with friends where I referenced Shepard Quiddick, and to my surprise, most of them had no idea what I was talking.
- [04:25]
George Severis
About, which is so wild because it's a huge piece of the Kennedy story and a very popular example of the Kennedy curse. It's also proof of the power of the Kennedy machine because just like in succession, the Kennedys immediately ran a cover up to protect the eldest boy. So, Lyra, what exactly happened that night in 1969?
- [04:46]
Lyra Smith
That's the million dollar question. There are still so many mysteries surrounding the actualities of that night. But here is what we do know. On July 18, 1969, a group of Kennedy friends and political workers were having a party in a small cottage on Chappaquiddick island in Massachusetts.
- [05:06]
George Severis
There was a lot of drinking, and it was kind of a reunion for the women who worked on Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign, including Mary Jo Kopechne and Rosemary Keough, who will come up again later.
- [05:17]
Lyra Smith
Sometime around midnight, Ted Kennedy left the party driving his black Oldsmobile on the dirt road from the cottage. With Mary Jo in the car, Kennedy drives off a one lane bridge into Poach a pond. And then the details get very messy. Ted Says he tried repeatedly to rescue Mary Jo but wasn't able to get her out of the completely submerged car.
- [05:42]
George Severis
What we do know is that he eventually returned to the party and acted like nothing had happened.
- [05:47]
Lyra Smith
Yeah, it's strange behavior, regardless of really any excuse he comes up with. Instead of calling for help or alerting anyone nearby, he goes to the party and tells his cousin Joseph Gargan and Paul Markham, a friend and lawyer. Then they all return to the pond and Joseph and Paul try to reach Mary Jo, but they can't.
- [06:11]
George Severis
And again, they still have not alerted authorities or told anyone else at this point, which is pretty brazen of them.
- [06:18]
Lyra Smith
So Mary Jo's body is not found until the next morning when fishermen spot the car. And there are so many confusing and honestly, ridiculous claims made by Ted to explain it all. So today we have a special guest on to help us unravel it all.
- [06:37]
George Severis
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People magazine and the co author of the New York Times bestseller, JFK Jr. An intimate oral Biography. She was also the host of Coverup, a podcast that looked into the story of Chappaquiddick. And that's why we're talking to her today. Liz, welcome to the show.
- [06:54]
Jana Kramer
Thanks. So great to be here.
- [06:56]
Lyra Smith
So what brought Ted Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne to Chappaquiddick?
- [07:01]
Jana Kramer
So way back then, they were in Chappaquiddick that weekend because first there was a regatta, there was a sailboat race that Ted Kennedy often participated in, and it was that weekend. And it was also a reunion for the women, several women who had worked for Bobby Kennedy in his presidential run. They were called the Boiler Room Girls because they worked in a windowless office. But they were part of the operation to help get Wright. Bobby first nominated and then elected president. And then there were several men that were also invited, Senator Kennedy being one. He was one of the hosts. And they had also were in some ways affiliated with the Kennedy family, with the campaign, et cetera, et cetera. So there were these two things, and they come together for a barbecue and a cookout on July 18, 1969.
- [07:51]
George Severis
So we'll get into the details of everything that happened in a second. But before we do, you know, after Chappaquiddick, Ted Kennedy's career was sort of defined by this scandal in many ways. But we were curious, what did the public think of him before that? What was his image in the public eye before Chappaquiddick?
- [08:11]
Jana Kramer
You know, it's a good question, you know, and I'm old, but I'M not that old, but I will say this. He. Yes, he's considered the heir apparent, but I think there was a sense that, you know, he's a young senator at this point in Massachusetts. But, you know, there's President Kennedy, jfk, there's Bobby, who really becomes this, you know, incredible figure over this short course of running for president, of sort of inspiration, becomes sort of much deeper spiritually. He's really connecting to people, reaching out, whether to farm workers or, you know, getting more involved in racial issues. He definitely sort of takes on a new, deeper Persona right after the death, the assassination of his brother. I think there was probably a sense that maybe Teddy wasn't up to the task. Not that that had been proven. He was a young senator at the time, but I think wasn't maybe considered in the same way. I think his long career in the Senate probably disproves that. But at this point, right at this juncture in 1969, perhaps he's not seen.
- [09:19]
Lyra Smith
As the serious one because he was really young, too. He was as young as he could possibly be as a senator.
- [09:25]
Jana Kramer
Yes.
- [09:25]
Lyra Smith
Also, I want to explain the boiler room girls.
- [09:29]
Jana Kramer
Yes, absolutely. And, of course, and there's many things in the story, you know, when you reported that are. Of course, you know, you wouldn't refer to somebody today as a boiler room girl, but, yes, it was. They were very, very involved in the. In the campaign. I think each of the women were assigned states. I know Mary Jo Kopechne was assigned certain states and was very involved in, you know, voter registration, getting people out to vote, rallying the vote. So these were serious young women, very inspired by Bobby. They were very connected to Bobby. And what's so interesting is that, you know, because of what happens at Chappaquiddick, they become very connected to Senator Ted Kennedy. But they're really, you know, believers. Right. I think they called them true believers in Bobby and what he and his campaign were all about. So, yeah, they were very serious young women who really believed, I think, in Bobby's mission.
- [10:23]
George Severis
All right, so now that we've set the scene, I guess, before we go into the details, in your own words, what did happen at Chappaquiddick?
- [10:31]
Jana Kramer
Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There's the official record, which people know, and basically, Right. There's this gathering of six women, and I think it's six men on that night. And it's really a reunion of sorts for people who worked on the campaign. And I think it's a sad one because, you know, There was. It was incredible loss with the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. But what happens that night is a woman drowns Mary Jo Kopechne. And there is a very long delay. Ted is driving the car, and there's a very long delay, nine to 10 hours before that is reported to the authorities. So. Right. That's not reported until the next morning, July 19th. So that story of exactly what happened, there's the official account of what Senator Kennedy put forth, and that's well documented. And then there's a lot of other theories about what happened that night. And I have my own just based on the investigation that I did and the people that I talked to. And it really became a story about memory and also about privilege. You know, I just am going to tell you about this book. This was my bible. This book is called Senatorial Privilege by Leo d'. Amore. And Leo Damore is a local reporter who digs into the case several years after the fact and probably interviews over 200 people. So this book is the bible, sort of for reporters for finding out what happened. And I think what he would say and probably what I would say is it didn't go down the way that Senator Kennedy and others said that it went down. Right. There's just. There's a lot of strange things happened that night, happened in the aftermath, happened because of, you know, the Kennedys, political power. You know, certain things happen. I think, as somebody said, right. It was as if there was one set of rules for the Kennedys and one set of rules for everyone else. So it's about the death of this young woman, Mary Jo Kopechne, and her story gets completely eclipsed, right, by Senator Kennedy, and it really becomes a story about his political future. And it really doesn't become a story. It isn't a story about the loss of this young woman.
- [12:35]
George Severis
And how was the case at that time covered in the media? Would you say that people were sort of not to say on Ted Kennedy's side? That sounds ridiculous. But were people feeling suspicious of the entire thing? Was it. Did people see it sort of as a tragedy that was no one's fault?
- [12:55]
Jana Kramer
Interesting. You know, there's a famous headline. I think it's in the New York Daily News, and I think it's, teddy Escapes, blonde Drowns. And in a strange way, right. That sort of tells you. Right. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes, how this is gonna affect Ted's. Will Ted become president? Will Ted be able to, you know, take the mantle from, you know, Sort of this thing that's been handed to him, all this expectation. But it was never about Mary Jo Kopechne. There was so little known about her. When I started the investigation, I knew nothing about her. I didn't even know if anybody was alive who her. And then I became, you know, close to her cousin, who was a very important part of the story. But so in terms of, you know, I think, you know, there were certainly investigations done about what was happening, but the tenor of the times is so different. You know, this is really within six years of, you know, incredible losses that the Kennedy family suffers, which, you know, yes, on one hand, it has nothing to do with it, but perhaps it also has a lot to do with, you know, how the story unfolded. But, yes, definitely there was criticism and investigative reporters on the scene and sort of trying to find out what really happened. But I would say the story was really always about Ted Kennedy. That's how it was covered at the time.
- [14:23]
Lyra Smith
And so one of the things that we find really interesting about his response or his public speaking after the fact is that he uses the word curse. He says that, you know, I don't know, maybe there is some curse.
- [14:35]
George Severis
And it was the first time a Kennedy ever referred to any kind of Kennedy curse. And I think it was the first time it was, like, mentioned on the public record at all. Like, the first time it was sort of popularized as an idea, surprisingly, was from a Kennedy, even though then so many members of the. The Kennedy family spent so much time trying to deny that there was something like a curse. And so it's interesting that the first time it was mentioned, it wasn't because of something that quote, unquote happened to them. It was about something that, in fact, you know, was a direct result from an action committed by a Kennedy.
- [15:08]
Jana Kramer
Right. This is the first time that any Kennedy has used the term a Kennedy curse. Now, don't forget, not only is there the loss, the incredible violence of the loss of President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy, but there's also the loss of the older brother Joe, who died in a bombing mission at the end of World War II. There's the loss of Kathleen Kennedy in a horrible plane accident. And, you know, many things will follow after that. But I think what's so interesting about the term of the Kennedy curse is that it's sort of. One could say that it absolves responsibility. Right? Because what is a curse. Curse is something that we're not. We don't control. It's something that comes inexplicable, that comes from, you know, forces greater than ourselves. When. When you look at Chappaquiddick or when you examine Chappaquiddick. Right. It really was the actions of, you know, somebody who was most definitely on the planet. So it's an interesting idea. You know, the. That idea followed the Kennedys, and maybe it still does to this day. But it was something that, you know, it's very evocative. Right. And it definitely makes you think, oh, how could one family withstand so much tragedy, you know, and such incredible loss? That is all true, however. Right. It also absolves one of some responsibility.
- [16:31]
George Severis
In terms of the sort of specifics. I want to get into the nitty gritty of some of the biggest, like, unsolved Mysteries. One thing that seems kind of shocking in retrospect is that an autopsy was never performed. What was the series of events that led to that?
- [16:48]
Jana Kramer
So, to the best of my recollection, the next morning, the medical examiner's on vacation. So his number two arrives on the scene and I think, does an exam that lasts about 15 minutes. She's fully clothed, meaning that's when she's taken out of the car. And he basically determines that she has died by drowning. So because of that. Right. Because the medical examiner determined that she had died by drowning, they did not ask for an autopsy. So things get more complicated from there. So then the body's flown off the island the next day to becomes embalmed. She's buried. The Peckneys are a very Catholic family. So several months later, the DA Files something for the body to be exhumed. Right. So that there can be an autopsy, but there's an exhumation hearing. So at this time, there's different schools of thought, right, about should the body be exhumed, should it not be exhumed? I spoke to the two medical examiners who were still alive. One of them is still alive. I think one of them has since passed away. Cyril Wecht and Werner Spitz, two of the most famous medical examiners probably in American history, and they were. Each of them was involved arguing either for or against should the body be exhumed. So one thing that's interesting is that because the Kopechnis were very Catholic, they were worried about what an exhumation would entail. And they were under the impression that the body was going to be examined to find out if Mary Jo was a virgin or not. So don't forget, this is, you know, many, many over 50 years ago. So they're concerned about this. And I would say. And so they actually argue, ask for the body not to be exhumed, for there not to be an autopsy. So, right, fast forward. When I interviewed Georgetta Patowski, she's Mary Jo's closest living relative. I'm just gonna. I printed it out so I could read it for you. So this is what Georgetta was saying about Gwen. Gwen is Mary Jo Kopechne's mother. Gwen Kopechne. So Gwen Kopechne, Mary Jo's mother, always regretted that she had opposed an autopsy for her daughter. Years later, Gwen said it was the biggest mistake she ever made. Said Georgetta, there should have been an autopsy. She knew it would have cleared up a lot of things, end quote. But at the time, Mary Jo's parents were afraid the autopsy was solely to determine if their daughter was pregnant, and they did not understand its importance. Although it was ruled that Mary Jo had died by drowning, there were always lingering questions about exactly how long she had survived in the car and whether she had suffocated or drowned. An autopsy would have likely answered those questions. Yeah. Cause I was.
- [19:36]
Lyra Smith
I had always heard that her body was in a position that meant that there was an air pocket.
- [19:45]
Jana Kramer
Yeah, that's what John. So, you know, John Farrar is the diver. And I interviewed him. He's a fascinating guy. So he's the man who goes in the next morning, as soon as they find. Realize that there's a car underwater, he goes in, he locates Mary Jo, locates the car, and carries her out. It's a very dramatic, very sort of tragic, you know, story. And he believes that the way Mary Jo's hands were positioned face body, that, yes, she was gasping for air and that she had found an air pocket. That's what he believed.
- [20:19]
Lyra Smith
Which would have meant that she was alive for a time, possibly enough time.
- [20:25]
Jana Kramer
We don't know how long she was alive. You know, an autopsy perhaps would have, you know, been able to have narrowed that down, but we don't know. Could have been, you know, we just don't know. And it's horrible to even imagine. Right. It's like. Yeah, it's even hard to. It was hard for me to, you know, I had to do it because you have to understand how Mary Jo died in order to understand the story. But, yes, it is not clear how long she was alive in the car. Having MG can make cooking difficult. But over the years, I found some really helpful tools and tips that I'm excited to share. Hi, I'm Alicia. I think cooking should always be fun, creative, and, of course, delicious. These Black Bean Burgers are hearty, full of flavor and MG friendly. You're gonna love them. Check out Alicia's Black Bean Burger Cooking Video and other recipes full of tips.
- [21:19]
George Severis
And tricks for managing common MG symptoms.
- [21:21]
Jana Kramer
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- [21:27]
Liz McNeil
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- [21:29]
Jana Kramer
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- [22:02]
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- [23:01]
Liz McNeil
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- [24:09]
George Severis
So we have a mystery surrounding how exactly she died. There's a. A mystery surrounding why she was in the car, whether or not she was asleep, as you say, why another woman's purse was in the car, or what are some of the other kind of unsolved mysteries that we still, you know, people are still looking for answers to because this is one of those kind of cases that, you know, for lack of a better term, true crime buffs really enjoy because there are so many open questions. So what are the other things that, that people sort of obsess over?
- [24:41]
Jana Kramer
I think for me, I was interested why the boiler room girls never. Have never spoken. They're all alive, they're all very accomplished women. I talk about them in the last episode of the podcast. Most of them became lawyers, had very interesting careers. One of them became an agent at icm. And so that they are interesting in and of themselves, Right. Why have they never spoken what it was like to be, you know, they were all in their very young 20s, I think, at the time, that night. So there's that. I think for Mary Jo's family, it's still not exactly clear what happened. Right. Georgetta would always say to me they just wanted to know what the last hours were like. Was she happy at the party? What was her mood? What did they talk about, you know, why did she get in the car? So there's. So the other question is, why? So if you know the geography of what happens, right? There's a T in the road. So there's the road that the house is on, that the house where the party is. And to my best of my recollection, to the right is the Dyke Bridge, right? The one where the car crashes. To the left is the road to the ferry. So it's almost a T, right? So why is the car that's supposed to be going to the ferry, right, to get home, why does it go in the opposite direction?
- [26:09]
George Severis
And we never found out whether or not Ted was intoxicated, Correct? Because there was no. I remember reading, like, someone accused someone involved in the case. You know, why did you, why didn't you give him a breathalyzer? And the person said, well, it was the morning after that I spoke to him. Even if I did give him a breathalyzer. It would not say anything useful about what happened eight hours ago.
- [26:29]
Jana Kramer
Like Ted. Like Ted never takes a to. Never takes any kind of alcohol test. So that really undetermined. Another question is it's something you did. Oh, so there's. Do you know the story of Huck look, Right. So Huck look is the man. Pretty sure he's the sheriff, who says who he's dead now or said that he saw the car more or less 90 minutes after Ted said he left. So I'd have to refresh my memory, but I think Ted says he said he leaves around 11, 11:30. And I think Huck sees the car 90 minutes later, or he sees a car that looks exactly like that. Now, don't forget, he doesn't actually see. He sees, I think three remembers three letters or numbers from the car plate when he sees the car the next morning when he goes out to the Dyke Bridge, he says, that's the car I saw last night. He sees the car and sort of begins to approach it. I think he might think that they're lost or something. Cause the car's close to the T, right. Whether you make a left or a right, and begins to approach. And then the car sort of revs up and speeds off. So he never gets to see who's exactly in the car. But what was that timeline about? Right, so if it was 90 minutes later, the ferry stopped operating at midnight. So if the car is there 90 minutes later, that meant that when they.
- [27:47]
George Severis
Left, they weren't going to the ferry.
- [27:50]
Jana Kramer
Right. Because now, even though the ferry operator, who is still alive, Jerry Grant, who I did interview, he was still there till about 2am I think he just.
- [27:58]
Lyra Smith
Yeah, I had read something that said that you could still call in an ask.
- [28:02]
Jana Kramer
So the time frame is really interesting. Right. And then, I mean, there's so many interests. Why did Ted swim across? He says he swam across. You know, the main question is, why did it take 10 hours to report what had happened? There's interesting records of phone calls that were made from payphones in the middle of the night.
- [28:22]
Lyra Smith
So, Liz, then what do you think really happened then?
- [28:26]
Jana Kramer
Well, you have to listen to the podcast, so it's such a complicated story. Okay, I'll just start off with that. I probably Talked to about 70 people, 75 people, maybe more, in the course of my investigation. And there were two. There were many things that stuck out. Two things happened at the end that were really interesting. One was a friend of Ted's who did not allow me to name him and would not, you know, allow me to, you know, identify him in any way. But he said years later that Ted had told him that Mary Jo Kopechne was asleep in the back of the car and that he didn't know she was there. So the next morning, the car isn't discovered until the next morning. It's overturned in a pond, they called it a pond beneath the Chappaquiddick Bridge, the Dyke Bridge. And the car's overturned. And when the car's fished out of the water, there's another woman's purse in the car, not Mary Joe Capechn's car. The purse belongs to a woman named Rosemary Keough. Rosemary Keough is one of the boiler room girls. She's still alive. And it's her purse in the car, not Mary Jo Kopechny's purse. Now, at the time of the investigation, to the best of my recollection, what she says, or others say is that she had gone out earlier that night with one of the other men who were at the party to. I think it was to get a tape recorder or cassette player or something to play music at the party, and that she had left her purse there. So it just remains a question, why was another woman's purse in the car? Perhaps, you know, it was because of that. You know, there's other theories there. So her purse was still at the rental house, that they were all having the party that night. So the retrieval of the purse, all the strange things that happened that night and the next morning, this all becomes sort of part of the Chappaquiddick story, right? So there's the. Mary Jo's death, there's what happens to Ted's political future, but there's a lot of layers. I really feel like it was sort of like an onion, you know, depending on who you spoke to, sometimes there's red herring. Sometimes it was easy to get lost, you know, in a track of. You know, at one point, I was dealing with the bag men of Watergate because one of them is sent up at the behest of Richard Nixon the next morning to investigate what happened. Because don't forget, President Nixon is worried about Ted Kennedy, you know, as a possible presidential contender. So Nixon is also very involved. So there's a lot of layers to the case. There's a lot of theories about what happened, and then there's a lot of strange things that happen.
- [31:02]
Lyra Smith
I guess I even am confused as to if she was sleeping in the backseat, why is she sleeping in the backseat of that Car, when they're in a house that has bedrooms like that even is very strange.
- [31:16]
Jana Kramer
The family received a letter. This was right around the time I was doing the podcast. I'm not allowed to say too much about the letter, but I know who wrote the letter, and I refer to that person as the letter writer. And the letter writer got together with somebody who was at the party years later. And that person, the letter writer called that person Betty, I think it was a pseudonym. And the letter writer said that Betty had said that there was a very small cottage. To my recollection, I think it was two bedrooms. And that there was no room for her. And don't forget, they're having a party and it's a raucous party and there's drinking and there's music and, you know, they're carousing. And there was no quiet place for somebody to sleep. And I think they said Mary Jo had had a little too much to drink so that she went into the backseat of Ted's Oldsmobile.
- [32:08]
George Severis
And so after all of this, Ted is only charged with leaving the scene of an accident after causing personal injury. And so I know, you know, there's been talk of the fact that there are different rules for Kennedys than for everyone else. What is your take on the process of criminal justice after what happened? I mean, how did we get from such a kind of messy night with so many open questions to sort of a slap on the wrist?
- [32:37]
Jana Kramer
Right. He's charged with leaving the scene of an accident. You know, I'm gonna quote from this book, if that's okay with you, because the Moore just did such an exhaustive, you know, multi year investigation. So he, at the end of his book, he cites an investigation that the Boston Globe did in 1974. Right. This is just ahead of 1976 when it's believed that Ted may, you know, run for president. So I'm just going to read. This is from page 412. Senator Kennedy granted a two hour interview to a team of investigative reporters visa from the Globe to discuss the accident. For the first time since the inquest, he continued to insist his version of the accident was accurate. The widespread skepticism about his inquest testimony was unwarranted and unjustified, he said. I attempted during the course of the inquest to respond to these questions completely candidly, honestly and to the best of my ability. His conduct had been irrational and indefensible and inexcusable and inexplicable. He said. I was at that time obsessed by grief at the loss of a life. It was strictly a state of mind. Okay, now Leo goes on to write, but Kennedy cleared up none of the contradictions involved in the accident or, quote, the nearly 100 discrepancies in the testimony and statements by key inquest witnesses. Preferential treatment by law enforcement and judicial officials had saved Kennedy from being charged with serious crimes, including manslaughter. The Globe concluded in its four part series, routine investigative and judicial procedures had been either altered or botched numerous times by apprehensive officials in overwhelming deference to Kennedy's power and prestige, end quote. Justice was not served hard questions were not asked of witnesses and complaints and indictments not pursued, end quote. So Damore is quoting the Boston Globe that did the investigation into the piece. I know that's long, but I can't say it better than that.
- [34:36]
Lyra Smith
No, that's great. I like the apprehensive officials is kind of the key there. I feel like in a lot of. Lot of pieces here, I'm sort of.
- [34:45]
George Severis
Interested in, like, I guess what I'm interested. I think what we're interested in is, you know, you've spoken to Mary Jo Capechni's surviving family, and on the one hand, at the time, it seemed like they also, you know, they also did not call for an autopsy. There was not, from what I understand, a giant amount of disagreement between the Kennedy camp and their camp about how to handle the case.
- [35:07]
Jana Kramer
But.
- [35:08]
George Severis
But of course, now there is still a kind of a movement to seek justice, whatever that may mean for them. So could you talk a little bit about how her surviving relatives have expressed themselves to the public and how their image of the knight has changed over time?
- [35:27]
Jana Kramer
I would say the Kopechnies were not, you know, there's a political machine, right, that they're dealing with. At the time, they were modest people. Mary Jo was their only daughter. They were completely grief stricken. I think what Georgetta explained to me was they definitely believed they were going to get some answers, right, from Senator Kennedy or other people at the party about what really happened. And they're completely grief stricken, I think, at the funeral. I think there's photos of Mr. Kopechny holding up Gwen. Like, it's photos that are, you know, very difficult, hard to look at. And so they're completely, you know, bereft at this time. So I think there was a sense that they were gonna get answers from their part. This is according to Georgetta, the cousin. So just to clear that up, I think they thought they were gonna get some answers and some explanation. Now you know, they're pretty private. They wrote a small self published book. They called it R Mary Jo. So they have a scholarship in her name. You know, what Georgetta would said to me a lot is that they just wanted answers. Mostly about what happened, mostly about that night, what her mood was. Why was there so much secrecy surrounding things at the end? Why the 10 hour delay? So I think they mostly just wanted answers and clarity about what happened because even they couldn't get answers right. And it's was their, you know, their family member. Why is it still shrouded in so much mystery?
- [36:59]
George Severis
Do they, for lack of a better word, blame the Kennedy machine for this or do they see it as a larger question that is, you know, unfortunately a tragedy that they will never fully comprehend. What is their relationship to the Kennedys?
- [37:13]
Jana Kramer
They mostly just wanted answers. I think they feel like they had been misled a little bit, you know, and I think they wanted Mary Jo to be considered as a person, as a human being, as a young woman, not, you know, blonde drowns. She was a really, really interesting woman. You know, she wanted to go into politics. She had taught for a year, I think in Alabama. You know, there was so much idealism in that time, you know, working for Bobbi. I can't remember if that was. That must have been before. But she was a really interesting woman. Woman. And I think they wanted, you know, of course, just her to be recognized for who she was. But also they wanted, you know, they want the truth.
- [37:54]
George Severis
So it's sort of a twofold idea of justice. They want the truth about what happened, but they also, in the media narrative want her to be more central to the story considering that was the great loss, not Ted Kennedy's political career.
- [38:06]
Jana Kramer
I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I think that those two things are a given.
- [38:10]
Lyra Smith
I think that's very relatable, understandable that when there is a tragedy like this, that really the most that you can have is clarity. That's kind of the best that you can hope for is just to have some clarity on what happened. Life with CIDP can be tough.
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- [39:06]
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- [40:37]
Liz McNeil
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- [41:46]
Lyra Smith
When on succession they made this rather clear reference To Chappaquiddick. To me, this is one of the first things you think of when you think about the Kennedys, but for some people, it is not at the forefront. And I think that that is interesting. But I. I was wondering, like, if you had any thoughts about that when that happened on Succession, or that just being, you know, 60 years later, back in, like, the pop culture conversation, you.
- [42:12]
Jana Kramer
Know, I didn't watch Succession. I know it's considered, like, incredible, and I probably should, but I think it's incredibly interesting. Of course. And it's interesting that the mystery lives on all these years later. You know, when I started looking into it, I think I knew three lines about that story, right? Something strange happened. A young woman died. There had been a delay. That's really all I knew. And then. And I did a. I ended up doing a podcast. And I remember thinking like, oh, oh, oh, my God, I have to do a podcast. And I really don't know anything about it. And why was that like. I mean, I knew other things. I did report a lot on the Kennedys for People magazine. I report on a lot of other things, too. But I didn't know. I did not know that story. Right. Other than just sort of that brief. Right. Brushstrokes. But then once you look into it, it's. Right. Everything's converging in that story, right? Political power, privilege, the tenor of the times, politics. So it's, you know, it really was one of the most. Is one of the most fascinating stories I've. I've ever looked into. One thing that's so interesting is there are a lot of people still alive now. A lot of people are gone, but a lot of people are still alive who lived through it, who played a part, you know, people in law enforcement. And yet. And yet, even during the course of that investigation, people. Several very key, important people died. Joe Gargan died. Paul Markham died. And that was, I think, even in the course of. Right around the time I was doing it. But there are a lot of people still alive. And there's like, there's a haunting quality to that story, to this story, right? Like, what happened? You know, just going back to what you said before, it was really about the truth, right. But the kopechnies wanted was the truth, what happened, and the fact that we're still talking about it all these years later, right. Why is it. Are things still not 100% clear? So, you know, there's a. Yes, it's a very haunting story. I was haunted by it.
- [44:07]
George Severis
What was the response after the podcast was released. Did you hear after the fact, after the final episode was released, did you hear from anyone, if you feel comfortable saying, did you hear from anyone saying, you know, either you got it right or how dare you.
- [44:23]
Jana Kramer
You know, I had a. There's a Facebook page that probably hasn't been too active in a long time, but I had the COVID up has a Facebook page, and I got some interesting responses that people would send, you know, notes to, to us. There was me, it was several other producers, and one person said maybe more than one person said. That's the story. That's what I was told. These people were connected in various ways. But, you know, I think at the last episode of the podcast, I call this story like a Rashomon story, right? Because. And you'll find this in the course of your own podcast, right, that there was different versions about what happened that night. But, yes, I was led to believe that, and I, I do believe it, and I did get some responses that said that that was correct. But, you know, these are not people that go on the record or that I can interview or that I can even name. And of course, you know, I. I have to be open to the idea that something else might have happened, you know, and I was thinking about it today because I knew I was going to, you know, do the interview with you, and I thought, wow, what if, you know, maybe something completely different happened that this, this book, I cannot recommend it enough. If you're on the beach this summer, some light summer reading, it's set. It's a tour de force of reporting of. And, and if you even want to go deeper, his papers are at Kent State University. And if there's a. I did a whole episode about it, episode six of the podcast about. So Leo d' Amour is a. Probably a subject for podcast in and of himself. And he. His papers are at Kent State, and in Those, there's probably 13 or 14 boxes. I have two days to go through them. And I like, I, I like, I, I like, I never move because it's fast. There's a lot of stuff that don't even make it into that book. And he interviews almost anybody. So, yes, there's a lot of. There's a lot more to the story. How's that?
- [46:18]
George Severis
And that book, again, is senatorial privilege for anyone listening. Yeah. And it has a really great sort of fabulous 80s cover right now.
- [46:25]
Jana Kramer
It got reissued. It got reissued at the time of the documentary. It's the same book, but it has a different title. I forgot what they called It. But it's an. It's an amazing. And his story is interesting and. And how. And how he gets people to talk. And. And he got Joe Gargan, Right? So Joe Gargan is Ted's cousin. He's one of the men at the party, and he interviews Joe Gargan may have been the only one who really ever interviewed him. So, yes, if you want to keep going on the Chappaquiddick story, I highly recommend it.
- [46:53]
George Severis
I think part of what is interesting to us and why we want to do this podcast is to explore specifically, like, the cultural fascination with the Kennedys. It just is this enduring American mythology that people keep going back to. And I think with people like RFK Jr. And with people like Jack Schlossberg, we're kind of in a new. Even Patrick Schwarzenegger, who people love. We're kind of in a new or very kind of a slightly weirder, different era of Kennedy worship and Kennedy fascination. So I think maybe we can end on this. Like, what do you think keeps people coming back to the Kennedys? What do you think, like, attracts Americans so much to the Kennedy story?
- [47:35]
Jana Kramer
Well, first of all, there's not one person to write about, right? It's not like, I'm just writing your. There's. How many members of the Kennedy family are there now? I don't know. So there's a lot of people to write about. There's the Shrivers. There's, you know, and all the good works that they've done. There's Rosemary Kennedy. Have you done a podcast for her?
- [47:55]
Lyra Smith
We will, probably. We will.
- [47:58]
Jana Kramer
But, yeah, if I was gonna say the most interesting story. And there's an incredible book that was written about her by a woman named Kate Larson, and he did a cover story on that. So there's her story. Then there's the. Right. Then there's the children and the children of. And then the rest of. What generation are we on now? Right. The fourth generation, you know, and then Carrie Kennedy marries Andrew Cuomo, and there's, you know, there's her daughters and all the different, you know, some are more public, some are more private. So, you know, the ancestors, I guess you would say the first generation. Right. That's all pre. The pre social media, and even up until John. Right. John is pre social media, pre iPhone. So there was a lot that people didn't know. So there's just. I don't know. There, you know, they. There's also this real idealism, I think, attached to the family. Like when you listen to a speech, even when I listen to a snippet of a speech by Bobby or jfk. How could you not be inspired? I'm inspired. People don't, politicians don't talk like that anymore. Right. Sort of lofty and, and, but idealistic and yet easily understandable. Right. Very connected to working people. So there's sort of, you know, very interesting idealism there that they sort of connected you to something maybe better than yourselves, deeper than yourselves. And then there's of course, all the tragedies and the scandals and all the things that, you know, surround them. So I don't know, there's sort of nobody like them. There's so vast and there's so much. Good. Right. And there's so much, you know, dark stuff also connected to them that I would just say, you know, endlessly, endlessly fascinating.
- [49:34]
Lyra Smith
Thank you so much. This is really great to talk to you.
- [49:38]
George Severis
Thank you so much for taking the time. This was really great.
- [49:40]
Jana Kramer
Okay, bye, everybody. Thank you.
- [49:42]
Lyra Smith
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People. She is also the author of the new book which comes out in paperback this fall, JFK Jr. An intimate oral Biography. Liz, thanks so much. So that's it for this week's episode.
- [49:58]
George Severis
Next week we're talking about Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and her truly immeasurable impact on fashion and her life in the tabloid spotlight.
- [50:05]
Lyra Smith
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.
- [50:10]
George Severis
Thanks for listening.
- [50:18]
Liz McNeil
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Jana Kramer
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Jana Kramer
I'm glad I talked to my doctor about Ovelity.
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Ovelity is a prescription medicine for adults with major depressive disorder. Ovelity is not approved for children under 18. Ovelity may increase suicidal thoughts and actions in young adults. Tell your doctor about sudden changes to mood, thoughts or behavior. Do not take Ovelity if you have a history of seizure eating disorder or have abruptly stopped drinking alcohol or taking benzodiazepines, barbiturates or anti seizure medicine, serious allergic reactions can occur. Do not take if you are allergic to dextromethorphan, bupropion or any of the ingredients in Ovelity. Do not take with maois. High blood pressure, manic episodes, serious eye problems and dizziness can occur. Report all medicines you take to avoid a life threatening condition. Do not take Ovelity if you are or may become pregnant. Side effects can include dizziness, headache, diarrhea, feeling sleepy, dry mouth, sexual function problems and excessive sweating. Ask your healthcare provider if Ovelity is right for you. Visit auvelity.com that's a U V E L-I-T-Y.com or call 866-496-2976 for more information.
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You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan. If you lose money due to identity theft, you might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.
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Jana Kramer
This is an iheart podcast.