Film of the Month: Blonde (2022)

Summary

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United States of Kennedy

Film of the Month: Blonde (2022)

Episode Date: March 2, 2026
Hosts: George Civeris & Julia Claire
Guest: Esther Zuckerman (Entertainment Reporter & Film Critic)

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Overview

This episode of United States of Kennedy examines the controversial 2022 Netflix film Blonde, a fictionalized account of Marilyn Monroe’s life directed by Andrew Dominik and starring Ana de Armas. Inspired by Joyce Carol Oates' sprawling novel, Blonde blurs fact and fiction surrounding Monroe and prominently features her (in)famous connection to the Kennedy family. Hosts George and Julia, joined by critic Esther Zuckerman, dig into the film’s artistic ambitions, factual liberties, cultural reception, depiction of women, and the meta-story it tells about Hollywood and exploitation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction: Context and Justification

• Blonde is framed as an "infamous" film, controversial for its blend of fact and fiction, especially in its treatment of Monroe and intersection with the Kennedys.
• The film is based on Joyce Carol Oates’ 700+ page novel, which serves as a fictionalized take on Marilyn Monroe’s life ([03:30]).

Fact vs. Fiction – Disorienting Blends

• The film notoriously mixes truths from Monroe’s life with wild fabrications (e.g., a throuple with Edward G. Robinson Jr. and Charlie Chaplin Jr., and fantasy sequences like a CGI baby conversing with Monroe) ([03:30]-[04:03])
• "JFK, or a fictionalized JFK, is only featured in a very small portion of the film, but, boy, does he make an impact." – Julia Claire ([04:09])

Critical Reception and Notable Reviews

• The film was divisive among top critics.
  • Richard Brody (New Yorker): called it "The Passion of the Christ for Marilyn Monroe” and criticized it for “cheap sentiment, brazen tastelessness and sexual exploitation.” ([05:04]-[05:37])
  • Manohla Dargis (NYT): “It is a relief that she did not have to suffer through the vulgarities of Blonde, the latest necrophiliac entertainment to exploit her.” – cited with much agreement ([05:37]-[06:25])

Esther Zuckerman’s Take on Watching Blonde

• Esther reveals she couldn’t rewatch the entire film for the episode, claiming, “I hate this film so much that I didn't do it the honor of like re-watching it in full” ([07:14]).
• She notes, “It's very beautiful to look at, but I find it a very cruel form of beauty and very cruel to its subject matter” ([08:25]).

Joyce Carol Oates and Her View

• Oates publicly praised the film as “a brilliant work of cinematic art,” and was surprised that its “stark exposure of sexual predation” was interpreted as exploitation ([11:21]).
• Hosts and guest agree that Dominik’s intention may have been sincere, but the film "revels in that punishment" and becomes complicit in Monroe’s exploitation ([11:54]-[13:06]).

Ana de Armas’ Performance

• Universally praised even by the film’s detractors: “Ana de Armas is giving kind of a crazy good performance despite the things that she is forced to do and say” – George ([18:06]).
• Her accent, which caused pre-release controversy, ends up being a minor issue compared to deeper problems in the film ([14:25]-[14:29]).

The Film’s Artistic Choices and Exploitation

• The movie’s meta-narrative is heavily critiqued: it “both recreates and aestheticizes the exploitation that it's attempting to critique” ([18:06]).
• The suffering and abuse Monroe endures overwhelms the audience; “There’s not even glimmers of the ambitious Marilyn... We just see the pleading. Like she says daddy so much. And I'm like, that can't be accurate. But again, anytime you ask that question, you're like, oh yeah, well, it's a fictionalization.” – Julia ([20:10]-[21:32]).

Erasure of Monroe’s Agency and Work

• The hosts lament that Blonde shows none of Monroe’s ambition, comedic brilliance, or moments of empowerment.
  • “This movie gives her like absolutely zero agency ever. It also just doesn't make for a very good movie to get into” – Esther ([30:26]).
• Discussion about Monroe’s real-life agency, founding her own production company, standing up for herself financially—entirely missing from Blonde ([29:33]-[30:26]).

Marilyn Monroe’s Real Legacy vs. the Film’s Depiction

• Esther contextualizes Monroe’s innovative comedic Persona and irreplaceable role in the evolution of the rom-com ([24:09]-[26:57]).
• The film “doesn't give her any credit for, like, how good she was on screen... she knew where the laugh lines were” ([23:06]-[23:31]).
• “It basically makes you think that she wasn't in on the joke, which is the opposite of how she was.” – Julia ([23:08]).

Andrew Dominik as Director

• Known for The Assassination of Jesse James…, Dominik’s work is described as ambitious and male-focused, making Blonde a thematic swerve ([35:38]-[37:50]).
• Dominik’s divisive approach puts Blonde in the camp of films like Darren Aronofsky’s Mother!—stylish, shocking, and confounding ([37:52]-[38:28]).
• “He set out to make people uncomfortable. He set out to implicate his audience in Marilyn's torture... It is a wrong-headed way to go about telling this story” – Esther ([40:15]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I find it very punishing and I find it very cruel. It's very beautiful to look at, but I find it a very cruel form of beauty and very cruel to its subject matter.” – Esther Zuckerman ([08:25])
• "This is a movie that is made by a man, certainly." – Julia Claire, on the anti-choice visualizations of abortion ([55:13])
• “[Blonde] did win Worst Picture and Worst Screenplay at the Razzies… There were accusations that it has kind of pro-life elements, which I would love to hear both of your takes on.” – George ([52:38])
• “The suffering and abuse Monroe endures overwhelms the audience... she is just a plaything for everyone and then she died again.” – George ([30:26])
• “They were marketing it as like a feminist movie, which is cuckoo to me because it's like again, it is like such a nightmare.” – Julia ([42:01])
• “[Dominik:] If the audience doesn't like it, that's the fucking audience's problem. I'm not running for public office.” – recounted by George from a Variety interview ([41:03])
• “It's as though she is a child and as though she genuinely doesn't understand how, like, pregnancy works.” – George ([56:59])
• "Where is the feminism?" – Julia ([61:47])

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Timestamps and Segment Highlights

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |--------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | [02:58] | Hosts introduce the film, guest Esther Zuckerman | | [03:30] | Film foundations: fact, fiction, and "disorienting" elements | | [04:52] | Review excerpts (Brody & Dargis); exploitation theme | | [06:25] | Introduction + guest background on Esther Zuckerman | | [08:25] | Esther’s personal/critical perspective as a critic | | [11:05] | Joyce Carol Oates’ support, Twitter posting, and her response | | [13:06] | Film’s cruelty: depictions of abuse and overwhelming suffering | | [18:06] | Ana de Armas’ performance: strengths despite challenges | | [20:10] | Erasure of Monroe’s ambition, the “wounded bird” depiction | | [23:31] | Reclaiming the real Marilyn: her agency, comedic chops, legacy | | [30:26] | Critique of film’s total lack of agency for its protagonist | | [35:38] | Andrew Dominik as director: cult status, film style, reputation | | [41:03] | Dominik’s polarizing persona and his defense of the film | | [52:38] | The NC-17 controversy, pro-life accusations, screenwriting issues | | [55:13] | CGI fetus, abortion scenes, and inadvertent pro-life messaging | | [58:19] | Rape, violence, objectification – relentless trauma in Blonde | | [59:22] | The Kennedy/"blowjob" scene: depiction & implications | | [62:27] | Is there a legacy for Blonde or is it “memory-holed”? |

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Deep Dive: The Kennedy Scene

Blonde’s controversial depiction of JFK features:

• Marilyn being carried by Secret Service agents to JFK’s bedroom ([59:22])
• Explicit oral sex while JFK is on the phone, directing Marilyn while being scolded for his infidelities ([59:22]-[59:33])
• The climax of the encounter synced with a sci-fi movie explosion on TV ([59:31])
• Later implication of rape and utter disregard for Monroe’s agency ([60:28])
• Consensus: This is perhaps the most damning portrayal of a Kennedy in pop culture, blending fact and cruel fantasy, serving the film's thesis of Monroe's total powerlessness ([60:09]-[61:14])

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Final Thoughts & Legacy

• On its cultural resonance:
  Blonde is described as “memory-holed,” representative both of Netflix’s ephemeral ecosystem and the pandemic era’s strange cinematic releases ([62:27], [63:20]).
• On its artistic merit:
  While visually and technically ambitious, the film is deemed more a "nightmare" than a revelation, a work that “succeeds at what it sets out to do,” but whose aims are themselves deeply flawed ([40:14], [41:03]).
• On Monroe’s Representation:
  The panel concludes that the film is "punishing and cruel," stripping Monroe of agency, joy, humor, and control—qualities that defined her real-life persona ([30:26], [28:54]).
• On the point of feminist revision:
  The hosts and guest share disbelief at the film’s self-conception as feminist, viewing it as a reflection and perpetration of the exploitation it attempts to criticize ([42:01], [61:47]).
• On the endurance of Blonde:
  The only lasting legacy may be a warning: Even with good intentions and artistry, telling the story of a real woman—especially one as mythologized as Marilyn Monroe—can perpetuate the same harms if not handled with care, nuance, and context ([63:20]).

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Closing

Esther: “I do think it is a work of art worth reckoning with because of what it's attempting to do… But because of streaming, they sort of don't exist.” ([62:27])
George: “Well, memory-holed both for sad and for correct reasons.” ([63:48])
Julia: “Where is the feminism?” ([61:47])

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For fans of film history, pop culture, and all things Kennedy, this pulpy, provocative episode stands as a pointed critique of Blonde—both what it set out to do, and what it inadvertently says about celebrity, trauma, and who gets to own a woman’s story.

Transcript

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[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire.

[George Severis]

And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. And every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story. And today, inspired by our recent episode on Marilyn Monroe and her intersection with the Kennedy family, we are talking about the, some would say Infamous, 2022 Netflix film Blonde, directed by Andrew Dominic and starring Academy Award nominee for this film, Ana de Armas.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Ooh.

[Julia Claire]

And it's a doozy.

[George Severis]

Let's get the facts out of the way. It is based on the Joyce Carol Oates giant novel, it's over 700 pages long, called Blonde, which is a fictionalized account of Marilyn Monroe's life. So one of the things that is kind of disorienting about the movie is that actual facts from Marilyn's life are mixed with complete fabrications. One that I just wanted to quickly shout out is she is portrayed as having a throuple relationship with Edward G. Robinson Jr. And Charlie Chaplin Jr.

[Julia Claire]

I thought that was the best part of the movie.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's a close second to the CGI baby having a conversation with her, which we will also get into.

[Julia Claire]

JFK, or a fictionalized jfk, is only featured in a very small portion of the film, but, boy, does he make an impact.

[George Severis]

That's true, he does make an impact. And as much as it is not only a single scene of the film that also comes in two and a half hours into the two hour and 45 minute film, but it is sort of an important part of the movie because, no pun intended, there's a climactic element. It's very much the climax of all the gratuitous violence and exploitation she has to deal with throughout the film. But then another reason that scene is important is because it is, I would imagine, the sole reason why this movie maintained an NC17 rating, despite the fact that it was, you know, on Netflix And a one time big Oscar contender.

[Julia Claire]

Just to set the scene for our discussion with film critics and writer Esther Zuckerman, we wanted to read some excerpts from some of the reviews of this film, which George and I had a lot of fun reading.

[George Severis]

Some heavy hitters too. Richard Brody reviewed it for the New Yorker and Manola Dargis for the Times, arguably the two most respected currently working film critics in kind of mainstream, non niche media. Richard Brody called it, I think, very perceptively, the Passion of the Christ for Marilyn Monroe. And I just want to read the final line of the review. You've got to hand it to Dominic. He doesn't only outdo the ostensibly crass showman of classic Hollywood and overt artistic ambition, but also in cheap sentiment, brazen tastelessness and sexual exploitation.

[Julia Claire]

It's worth noting that both Brody and Manola Dargis do praise Ananjarmus in her performance, but Manola Dargas has maybe one of my favorite little paragraphs in all of film criticism. She said, given all of the indignities and horrors that Marilyn Monroe endured during her 36 years, her family tragedies, paternal absence, maternal abuse, time in an orphanage, time in foster homes, spells of poverty, unworthy film roles, insults about her intelligence, struggles with mental illness, problems with substance abuse, sexual assault, the slavering attention of insatiable fans, it is a relief that she did not have to suffer through the vulgarities of Blonde, the latest necrophiliac entertainment to exploit her.

[George Severis]

The latest necrophiliac entertainment to exploit her. And with that, we want to welcome entertainment reporter and film and TV writer Esther Zuckerman. She wrote about the film Blonde when it came out. She wrote this piece for Vulture about what's fact and what's fiction in it. And she also is the author of the book Falling in Love at the Movies Rom Coms from the Screwball Era to Today, which is obviously very relevant to Marilyn Monroe's career. And we are excited to discuss this crazy movie with her. So, Esther, welcome to United States of Kennedy. How are you?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm good, thank you for having me.

[George Severis]

And I just wanna say you're welcome for the privilege of watching this film a second time. We know it's one of your favorite movies of all time and that you take any opportunity to chat about it on a sort of pop culture history podcast.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I will fully confess I didn't fully rewatch it. I rewatched scenes and I rewatched moments, but I hate this film so much that I didn't do it. The honor of like re watching it in Full.

[Julia Claire]

Which is so. It's so crazy because you actually emailed us being like, I really wanna come

[George Severis]

on and talk about who is this Esther woman? I guess you can have her on. Such a big fact.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's obsessed.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And we should say, you know, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is because many people wrote about the film critically, but you specifically in Vulture wrote, like, what's fact and what's fiction about the movie, which felt more pertinent to our interests. Because at the end of the day, even though we talk a lot about conspiracy theories and we talk a lot about, you know, things that are potentially not able to be fact checked because the Kennedy universe is just full of rumors and lies and conspiracy, we do care a little bit about the historical record. And obviously this movie is a fictionalized account, but we wanted to talk to someone that at least knows a little bit about the real Marilyn and has done a little bit of work in terms of just separating fact from fiction from the film.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Before we get into it, I do wanna just ask, what is your relationship with this movie?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I saw it right after its film festival premiere for review and editorial consideration at the Paris Theater in New York, which Netflix own. So by the time I came into it, there was so much press around this movie before it even premiered. It was in production for ages. You know, Andrew Dominic, the director's people love him, but he's made very few films. He hadn't made a movie since 2012. And there was a lot of talk, you know, immediately people started sort of in the film community, like, this is crazy. So I knew going into it that it was wild. It was long, it was intense. I knew it was divisive. And so then I went and saw it. And, you know, I am a critic. I go in with an open mind, and I really do not like it. I find it very punishing and I find it very cruel. It's very beautiful to look at, but I find it a very cruel form of beauty and very cruel to its subject matter. Now, I haven't read the Joyce Carol Oates book that it is based on. Shout out to Joyce. Our. One of our greatest posters, you know.

[Julia Claire]

Absolutely.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is just a total non sequitur. But a friend was talking to me about Joyce's Twitter and there was an exact 8 hour difference from her post one night and her post in the morning that, like, girl cannot log off. She is just.

[George Severis]

Well, I was. I was saying to Julia before we started recording, she's a frustrating figure because she proves that you can be both a prolific and incredibly talented real writer and also never stop posting. You know, sometimes I'm like, God, I gotta get off my phone because I have a deadline. She is not like, somehow she does meet all her deadlines and never stops posting.

[Julia Claire]

I love her so much. And George said The book is 700 pages. Yes. Has anybody read this book? I don't know. I love Joyce Carol Oates writing. I have not read this novel, but yeah, I think Punishing is an excellent descriptor for this film. I felt the way that I have felt a few times in my life when after I finished this movie, I was like, well, I never want to see that again. And it should be banned maybe, and no one should ever have to see it ever again. Yeah.

[George Severis]

We should also say that this movie actually was adapted once before by Joyce Chopra, I believe.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And Joyce Chopra is a very respected filmmaker. She made that Laura Dern movie that I love, Smooth Talk.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Oh.

[George Severis]

In 2001, she adapted it. It was like a made for TV movie, which, I mean, it makes sense that Hollywood people would want to make a movie based on a book that's like a fictionalized account of Marilyn Monroe. Do you have any idea what Joyce Carol Oates his response was to the film?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I don't remember, honestly. It's funny because she does see a lot of movies and she comments again, she posts about them, but I think she was supportive. She did an interview for like, Netflix's Tudum website about it.

[George Severis]

You know what? I found the tweet. Someone asked her, time for your film review, please, on Twitter. And she goes, I think it was. Slash is a brilliant work of cinematic art. Obviously not for everyone. Surprising that in a post me too era, the stark exposure of sexual predation in Hollywood has been interpreted as exploitation. Surely Andrew Dominic meant to tell Norma Jean's story sincerely. I must agree with her that I think he did mean to. Like, that's what's sort of so shocking about it, is I think as much as I can say this with a straight face, his heart was in the right place.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. Yeah. I actually think that is 100% true. And I think that comes through in, like, not to keep using this word, the punishing nature of the movie, that it shows her being exploited at every turn. I think the problem is, and the way in which it doesn't succeed is it revels in that punishment and it feels invasive in that punishment from literally going into her uterus, which is the thing that the movie does multiple times.

[Julia Claire]

Multiple times.

[Esther Zuckerman]

To even, like, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about, like, the Kennedy blowjob scene, which, like, focuses on her face giving that blowjob so much longer than it needs to in a way that obviously is trying to convey the horror in her eyes, but is still a shot of a woman giving a really, really long blowjob without being so explicit, but just graphic enough that you know what's happening. And I think that is the line that it doesn't really succeed in walking is it feels sort of like if it loves her, it's a really mean way of showing that it loves her.

[Julia Claire]

I completely agree. And I think that there's a point at which, like, obviously Marilyn was a woman who was exploited for her whole life and there's a way in which the depiction of the exploitation ends up joining in on the exploitation. Yeah. There's no delineation between the exploitation that Marilyn, the character is experiencing and what the film is doing to her. It's just, oh, this movie makes my skin crawl. It's funny because when I knew we had to watch this movie, I watched the trailer again, which I hadn't since it came out in 2022, because I remember as you were talking about, the production of this film was much written about. I remember the stills coming out from this film of Anna Darmas as Marilyn and Adrien Brody as Arthur Miller and being like, wow, they look great. I mean, they're obviously two extremely hot people. They look great. But when I watched the trailer, I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot that, like, you know, Ana De Armis is a Cuban actress who got her start in Spain. She, like became a star in Spain and she really didn't lose her Cuban Spanish accent to the degree that she needed to. But the weird thing about watching this movie is that that is at the absolute bottom of the list of things that are wrong with this movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Claire]

It almost doesn't matter.

[George Severis]

It does not matter at all.

[Matt Rogers]

It.

[Julia Claire]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

There's this meta thing that happens where the movie both recreates and aestheticizes the exploitation that it's attempting to critique. Allegedly. But what happens on a meta level is that Ana de Armas at times has such moments of transcendence and grace despite that, that you're almost like, wow, you are unintentionally actually telling the story of Marilyn Monroe in like a different way than you think you are. Like you, this actress is being completely like humiliated. And it's actually kind of, I don't know, I guess cool that she was rewarded for it. I mean, who knows? I don't know how much I earnestly care about Oscar recognition. But it is interesting that that the critical consensus, which did seem to be that the movie was, you know, wrong headed, didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and actually allowed that despite it all, Ana de Armas is giving kind of a crazy good performance despite the things that she is forced to do and say. Not in every scene, I should add, but when she's good, she's amazing.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I do think she is really good and she so much with her eyes in the film, which I think is one of the things that overcomes the accent and the dialogue thing because that is also one of the weird things about anyone playing Marilyn in any respect is like they all have to do this sort of breathy Marilyn voice that obviously was some of a put on in real life, but also is so defining and it can become such a hang up and it can become such a parody and the fact that English is not her first language, that she's never totally lost her accent, that I feel like lend something to the dialogue that helps, that the rest of her face is allowed to do the work in a way that's really interesting. I mean, and that's the thing about the movie. Like, I do think the movie has moments of like extraordinary beauty that sometimes con you into thinking it is more profound or it is more eloquent than it actually is. And then it goes back to the shock value. And I think it just relies far too much on the shock value of it totally.

[Julia Claire]

And I think one of my big problems with the whole thing, and this might be my problem with the novel as well if I had read it, is that it kind of lets itself off the hook by being like, this is a fictionalized version of Marilyn, but so much of this is based on her actual life, obviously. So the line there is so blurry that the whole thing just feels so exploitative and terrible. And also the thing that I was frustrated about as someone who, you know, we all know a lot about the real Marilyn, but it marinates in her suffering so much. And all Anna de Armis is doing in this whole movie is that wounded bird kind of crying and just being absolutely like bereft and a lost little girl. And there's not even glimmers of like the ambitious Marilyn, which is something that was talked about over and over again from people who knew her, that she wanted to be a star and had a really, you know, for all of her troubled upbringing, had a real determination and a head on her shoulders that was going to point her in the right direction. And we don't see any of that. We just see the pleading. Like she says daddy so much. And I'm like, that can't be accurate. But again, anytime you ask that question, you're like, oh yeah, well, it's a fictionalization.

[George Severis]

Julie and I were talking about this off mic earlier, but this movie sets you up to seem like a woke scold. Because anytime you have a critique like that, then of course the answer becomes like, well, I'm. Obviously you don't get it. It's performance and theatricality in camp is in the DNA of the movie. And it's obviously using Marilyn as a metaphor. And even at some point, I think in one of the reviews of the original book, it said that Marilyn is like a metaphor for America. Like, you know, it's all these high minded content and it's like, no, I get all that and I still believe that the entire project is misguided.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, I mean that's. I mean it's such a complicated thing that it's doing, which is the real life person is metaphor for America. But it's like, like it's still a real life person. Like not to be like a woke scold or like an art scold too. It's like, yes, I understand that artists can do this, but I also think that if you're using the name of a real person to reduce them fully into metaphor almost also feels anti. Like, I thought about in the context of, like, one of the things that this movie doesn't show at all, in addition to, like, what you said, Julie, about, like, her ambition thing is, like, what a joyous performer she was. Like, it doesn't give her any credit for, like, how good she was on screen. And, you know. Yes, the production of Some Like It Hot was very troubled. But she's so good in that movie and she gives such a warm and. Yeah, she's incredible and intentionally funny performance where she knows, like, that's the thing, like, all of her comedies, you know, she knew where the laugh lines were. She knew how to make it funny, and it doesn't give her any of that Agent.

[Julia Claire]

Incredible comedic performer.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Claire]

It basically makes you think that she wasn't in on the joke, which is the opposite of how she was. She was extremely calculated about how she appeared to the world, and she was a really gifted comedic performer. So the idea that, like, the laughs were happening in spite of her is crazy. Yeah. And it's ahistorical.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And speaking of ahistorical, I think this is a good point to ask you, Esther. You wrote a book about the history of the rom com falling in love at the movies, rom coms from the screwball era to today. So if we could sort of take a step back from the fictionalized account of this movie and maybe do our own little reclaiming of Marilyn.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

What was your experience doing research into Marilyn for the book? Where does she fit into film history? What was other than, you know, the Warhol celeb that we all know, even if we know nothing about film, like, what was the equivalent romantic comedy lead before her and how did she change it? What was her significance, like, as an actual artist?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I mean, I think it was this constructed Persona. Look, obviously she took this idea of the sort of daffy. I don't want to say like, dumb blonde, because that's not what she was, but, like, the sort of airhead, like, that had obviously existed before Marilyn. Like, I think, you know, Judy Holiday is like, a great example of that as well, but with, like, a sort of New York brassy bent. But I think the thing about Marilyn was like. Like, she was her own archetype, you know, before and after. No one really did it, like, exactly the same. You know, there were other famous blondes. I think you know, in the sort of, like, arc of the screwball era, the Billy Wilder comedies had a different bent than the Lubitsch comedies of the late 30s, early 40s, or the Preston Sturgis comedies, even though he actually wrote a lot of those. And so something like Some Like It Hot framed her. She was completely unique. She wasn't the sort of mile a minute talker of a Katherine Hepburn or even an Irene Dunne. Like, she didn't have that. What she had was this Persona that I think sort of like, engulfed whatever space that she was in. Whether that's like how to Marry a Millionaire or like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes or obviously Some Like It Hot, she drew attention. And some of that was the way she looked and the way her voice sounded. But also it was her ability to find the comic prowess. Like how to Marry a Millionaire I think, is like, a great example. She's sort of playing a nerdy version of Marilyn Monroe in that, like, she literally has the, like, rom com, take off your glasses moment because she likes. You can't see. And that's like a whole joke in the movie. But she is hitting every beat and every joke. But it's really hard to put her in the context of anyone else because she stands so alone. I do think that one of the things that in some ways different hers from, like, a lot of rom com heroines and a lot of, like, people who took these roles is, yes, she was largely viewed for, like, a male point of view. Like, I think Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and like, how to Marry a Millionaire sort of like, stand alone from that. But Seven Year Itch is literally all about a man whose wife is away, who she moves upstairs and he loses his mind. Some Like It Hot, she's a jazz singer. You know, she has her own thing, but it is Tony Curtis, like, losing his mind over her. And I think that is a way she stood apart. And how it's sometimes also difficult to engage with who was Marilyn outside of this gate.

[George Severis]

I am ashamed to say that for someone who, like, thinks of myself as a, if not cinephile, then at least, like, watcher of movies. Yeah, I hadn't really done the deep dive maybe until the pandemic. And I remember when I watched Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, it was like the only other thing I can compare it to is when I watched Cabaret for the first time and I was like, okay, so Liza Minnelli in this is like a game changer. It's like, I've never. I've never seen someone do what she does here Totally. Even if you go into it knowing, like, I've never not known who Liza Minnelli is. Even if you go into it knowing exactly who, it's still as though you're seeing something for the first time. Any image you have in your head is gone. And it's the same with Marilyn. I grew up always knowing who Marilyn Monroe was, but she is so good that it's like the image of her in the subway grade or like the Andy Warhol poster. Like, none of that exists anymore because you're actually seeing someone do something you've never seen before.

[Julia Claire]

I feel completely the same. And I remember seeing some Like It Hot when I was a teenager. And I feel like. I feel like as an American, I've always also known who Marilyn is. But I feel like my mom really, like, introduced me to Marilyn as a comedic actor. She was like, we have to watch something. Like, Marilyn is so funny. And my mom also loves the Misfits. And she's like, she gives such a beautiful performance in the Misfits. So I feel like any more than surface level reading of Marilyn, you know, there's more under the surface and how talented and funny she was and what, like a striver she was.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. And she wasn't just funny. Like, I mean, Niagara is a great performance. The Misfits is a great performance. Like, she did have range, which dovetails with blonde is like to talk about the boxes that she was put into. But I think the thing is, is like the mythology around her, which feels so overwhelming. But then, like, I think what we're also saying is if you look at the performances individually, it is impossible to argue that she did not know exactly what she was doing and she wasn't giving performances too. Like, actual performances.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, she was fully in the driver's seat. And that's the thing that I always ha. Again, this idea that she was not in on the joke and that all of the comedic elements were accidental or were happening in spite of her. I mean, obviously, it's so reductive. But one of the million things that frustrates me about this movie is that the idea of her as a striver, which she was, is kind of translated into a pure desperation. Like all the scenes of her in the actor studio and her trying to be taken seriously, it's just pure desperation and fear.

[George Severis]

It also doesn't take it to its natural conclusion. It's like assuming, okay, so she wanted to be seen as a serious actress and she never was. And isn't that sad? And I think a Similar scene. And this is a great, like, segue back into the movie. A similar scene is one of the few times you see her even kind of attempt to be empowered is when she hangs up the phone on the studio when they tell her she's gonna be paid less than she deserves for Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. And it's funny because then it's left like that as the implication being, wow, she was exploited even financially, when in fact, in real life she actually formed her own production company, Marilyn Monroe Productions, to try to do projects that she wanted to do. Like she did at some point, reclaim her subjectivity, even partially. I'm not saying, you know, obviously she had a very tragic life and tragic death, but it's not that she was just a plaything for everyone and then she died again.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It sort of goes back to the woke school thing, which is like, even when people, like, lack agency, there are always moments when they have agency. And this movie gives her like absolutely zero agency ever. Like, even in the most desperate situations. Like, yeah, it is human nature to have glimpses of that. And this movie doesn't allow her to have any agency at all. And that's so frustrating. It also just doesn't make for, like a very good movie to get into

[Julia Claire]

the film as a film. This movie has some favorite actors in it. And that is in and of itself kind of a crazy thing. Like, I love Adrien Brody, Julianne Nicholson. I am like, obsessed, obsessed with her. She can do no wrong to me. When the movie opens with her, I was like, oh, I had no idea she was in this movie. And oh my God, I mean, I love Bobby Cannavale.

[George Severis]

I do too.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, I love Anna Darmis. I love, like, I mean, I loved her in Knives out, which was her big US debut. How did all these people get tripped into this movie?

[George Severis]

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high frequency free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

Esther, do you have any take on Andrew Dominic, the director? Because I, I know that as you said, he is sort of like a cult favorite. The only other movie of his that I really have engaged with is the

[Esther Zuckerman]

the Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert.

[George Severis]

Of Jesse James by the Coward Robert. So that I do remember being like. So I think I saw it in theaters and to be honest, maybe I just saw the trailer. Like, it is one of those movies that the look of it is so instantly iconic because it has these long shots of the desert and these two very famous actors. It's sort of Brad Pitt at his most attractive. And I do remember that being kind of like a big awards contender. What is his reputation otherwise as a filmmaker?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, I think his reputation as a filmmaker is very ambitious projects like Assassination of Jesse James that take a very long time for him to make. He is not a really prolific filmmaker. Before Blonde, all of his films were very male focused. He followed up Jesse James with Killing Them Softly, which is another Brad Pitt project that's sort of like a crime drama. So this felt like they swerve for him thematically. But because Jesse James is so well loved. Loved. And Killing Them Softly also has like a lot of fans. He maintains a little bit of one of those sort of like underappreciated auteur status. I don't know if Blonde hurt that a little bit, but I think Blonde has enough fans that it also still maintained that because it is a movie that in its divisiveness, like it has, like, well, he really did it. And he's such a stylist that it still maintained that status for him. And, you know, so I think he has a ton of stuff that never made it to the screen. He's like one of those people that sort of, like, always has stuff in limbo. So whenever there's a movie of his, it feels like an event too, because it's like, well, he doesn't make them all that often, and sometimes they're incredible.

[Julia Claire]

Crazy to think that this movie has fans. It does.

[George Severis]

And I was going through actual professional critics reviews and also people's letterbox reviews. I mean, it is a classic case of, like, a divisive movie. It reminds me of Darren Aronofsky's Mother or something.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Personally speaking, I actually do like Darren Aronofsky's Mother, which I know is controversial, but unfortunately, as much as I want to be like, it's horrible in every way and I'm throwing it out, you do clearly feel like he is an incredibly talented filmmaker and manipulator of images. And if he were to be given a script that he had nothing to do with and not allowed to veer from it, he could make, like, an amazing movie about Marilyn Monroe.

[Julia Claire]

You know, many, many such cases with director. With auteur directors, where you're like, you should not have written the screenplay. If you had just directed someone else's screenplay, this would have been maybe serviceable. But I will say that the movie looks great. It's extremely stylish. There's some really interesting shots. He's doing a lot with perspective. He slaps a GoPro on Bobby Cannavale and Anna at one point, like, it's cool to look at. That is kind of where my praise ends.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Got a cool score. Nick Cave and Warren Ellis.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, that's true. Good score.

[George Severis]

Yes, it does. I mean, this is a quote from Bilga Eberry's Vulture review, which says Dominic has structured the film largely around impeccable recreations of images from Marilyn's career. But each recreation then gives way to something terrifying. And that is exactly what it is. You recognize images from photos you've seen from. From famous clips of movies. There is obviously her with the white dress on the subway grade. There is her wearing, like, the black turtleneck sitting on a couch. It's images that you don't even realize are buried deep in your brain until you see them and you have sort of deja vu. And I think it's such a film school impulse to be like, you know, what I'm gonna do is take famous Images and then prove that there's darkness behind them.

[Julia Claire]

Like, it's.

[George Severis]

To me, it feels like an exercise you do in a class or something. Like, I hate to be so reductive, but I do think that describes the flow of the movie because it is a very dreamlike movie that is like a series of vignettes almost. And I think that is actually, for all its faults, is done well, at least, like, structurally, like, I think the movie coheres, even if the content is completely evil.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, it's. It's more of a nightmare.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, that's one of the things. I don't know. It's always challenging as a critic to like, think about because it's like, I think, think he succeeds at what he set out to do very well. He set out to make people uncomfortable. He set out to implicate his audience in Marilyn's torture. But it is one of those things where, you know, sometimes you just disagree with the content of a work. And that is how I feel about this. You know, that if you evaluate purely on, like, is this what he wanted us to feel? Then, yeah, he accomplished it. I. It is a wrong headed way to go about telling this story, Even though he would also argue, well, it's not the story you think you're telling, but like, okay, right.

[George Severis]

I mean, I do want to quote him a little bit because it might seem like we're all being reductive, but I honestly think his quotes speak for themselves. I mean, I found this Variety article that was sort of like in the beginning of controversy about the film, before it was even released. You know, there was a lot of stuff around how, for example, Netflix brought in an editor to curb some of the excesses of the movie. And then he said Blonde is, quote, a demanding movie. If the audience doesn't like it, that's the fucking audience's problem. I'm not running for public office. And this goes back to his heart, quote, unquote, being in the right place. One of the things he said was if Blonde had opened several years ago, it would have come out right when Me too hit. And it would have been an expression of all that stuff. We're in a time now, I think, where people are really uncertain about where the lines are. It's a film that definitely has a morality about it, but it swims in very ambiguous waters because I don't think it will be as cut and dry as people want to see it. There's something in it to offend everyone. One of the shocking things about it is that he really thinks it's a feminist movie, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Like that's what he's trying to say with this MeToo quote.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, Anna Darma said it explicitly. She said this is like the most feminist rendering of the Marilyn Monroe story that we've ever seen. Like they were marketing it as like a feminist movie, which is cuckoo to me because it's like again, it is like such a nightmare. Like everything that happens to her is just this unrelenting torrent of abuse.

[George Severis]

It also he very explicitly and candidly talks about how it's his first time making a movie about a woman. And there's something about it that's so almost pure and innocent about it. He just goes, it's a different thing for me to do. The main character is female. My films are fairly bereft of women. And now I'm imagining what it's like to be one. Like, it really is just like incredible.

[Julia Claire]

Wow.

[George Severis]

Anyway, so Esther, you're someone who sort of, you are going to every film festival. You're like in the sort of muck of the entertainment industry and you, you know what an Oscar campaign consists of, what it means for something to premiere at, you know, Venice versus Toronto versus Telluride. Like all these things that there's such a mythology around them. What do you remember of the release of this film and of the Oscar campaign around it? It's a unique film to me because it was a post or not post pandemic, sort of mid pandemic, post lockdown Netflix release that also had been in development hell for a while. I mean, the first time this was ever in pre product was in May 2010 and Naomi Watts was going to play Marilyn Monroe. So this is just one of Those classic Hollywood 20 year long production story. So like, what do you remember from that time as an entertainment journalist?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean this was definitely for Netflix, an era where they were coming out of their. Like Netflix is at a weird place with its like awards beat E Movies right now. Yeah, it very much felt like a holdover from the days of Netflix where was like, hey, Martin Scorsese, no one's allowed you to make the Irishman. I'm going to let you make the Irishman, you know, or like giving people the money to make their passion projects that like no one else would let them make. And those being relatively, to a certain degree, like successful awards wise, never winning best Picture. But like Jane Campion got, you know, best director for Power of the Dog. Probably like my favorite of that bunch

[George Severis]

Roma is a classic example of this

[Esther Zuckerman]

era, is a classic example of this. I mean, now at this point in time, they were sort of coming out of that a little bit and realizing that they were going to have a harder time cracking the top. I actually think that year they didn't make any Best Picture, but I think there was a sense with this one from the beginning that it was semi. It was not doomed because it got her the Best Actress nomination, but there was a sense that this isn't going to be the huge awards hopeful people think it's going to be. I think it's sort of remarkable that she ended up getting the actress nomination, but it was a fucking weird year, let's not forget.

[George Severis]

Yeah, tell us about the Best Actress race, if you remember.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, so Michelle Yeoh won for Everything, Everywhere all at Once, which just ended up starting to dominate everything. The other sort of leading contender was Cate Blanchett and Tarr, which arguably should have won.

[George Severis]

Well, yes, I think you're not gonna get any disagreement from this crowd.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, and by arguably, I mean, like, definitely should have won. This is a Lydia Tar crowd, but automated in. And then this was the year of Andrea Riseborough sneaking a nomination for Two Leslie, which was a movie no one had ever heard of. And then suddenly, you know, her friends, including Frances Fisher and Kate Winslet, started sort of campaigning for it, and it got her in. It also got her in over Danielle Deadweiler for Till, which is, like, an amazing performance, and it really controversial also. Then the other nominee was Michelle Williams and the Fableman, a performance. I love that, like, some people argue, should have gone supporting and it would have won if she had done that. So I think it was a strange.

[Julia Claire]

Another former Maryland, another former Marilyn who got.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God, that's right. Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And she got a nomination for that, too. She got an Oscar nomination for My Week With Marilyn. So I think the fact that it was able to get that was a sign of a pretty. Pretty weak field, or maybe not weak, but very unsettled field in Best Actress that year, where a lot of weird shit was happening. And, you know, playing Marilyn is actually like, you know, as you're talking about Michelle Williams in it, like, it's sort of an easy way to get acclaim, which is strange because I think no one's done it, like, really well, but people are like, oh, well, you did the voice and you did the vulnerability, and so therefore, you deserve lots of.

[Julia Claire]

Can I just interject and say that one of my big frustrations with both Michelle and Anna and many depictions of Marilyn is that the actresses who play her never gain enough weight to, I think, realistically depict her. And it really bothers me because it was her signature, it was part of her whole thing. And her sex appeal was being a little fuller figured. And it pissed me off in my week with Marilyn and it pissed me off here. And I'm like, you could have gained 10 pounds. Would that have came killed you? Come on.

[George Severis]

Yeah. It is interesting the transformations people are willing to go through versus not willing and the types of things that you sacrifice or not sacrifice for authenticity's sake. Because actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I think that probably bothered me more than the accent because the accent, as much as going into it, I thought it would bother me. You know what it sort of just reminded me of is like a Nicole Kidman performance. Nicole Kidman, who's like one of my favorite actresses, always does sound a little off. And in fact, a specific performance performance that is very similar to this accent wise is her as Lucille Ball and being the Ricardos, because Lucille Ball has such a specific accent and no matter how talented she is, Nicole Kidman cannot do it. But it sort of just doesn't matter because she, like, embodies the larger spirit of Lucille Ball.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I would argue that Anna as Marilyn is better than Nicole as Lucille Ball. And I might actually, I agree, weirdly, I might actually actually dislike being the Ricardos more than I dislike blonde.

[George Severis]

This is a can of worms. And like, this is not about being the Ricardos. But personally speaking, I hated being Ricardo's. It was like, it's an easy example to bring up, but I legitimately stopped it halfway through. And I have many friends in my life, many gay men who claim that it was a masterpiece. And I was like, you guys, we have to be realistic here.

[Esther Zuckerman]

So you didn't even see the part where J. Edgar Hoover, like, saves the day?

[George Severis]

I literally did not, actually, to be honest, I didn't.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And you're like, aaron, what are we doing here?

[Julia Claire]

Incredible. No, that's. Well, that's exactly the same thing where it's like, Aaron Sorkin should be writing screenplays, not directing. He should not be doing both. And too many of these guys want to do both. Yeah.

[George Severis]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

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[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

So, speaking of the screenplay, I want to sort of list a few of the controversies, slash accolades surrounding it. I hate to mention the Razzies because it's such a cliche thing at this point.

[Julia Claire]

I love the Razzies.

[George Severis]

It did win Worst Picture and Worst Screenplay at the Razzies. Another controversial thing about it is that it did have an NC17 rating and it stayed NC17 throughout its Netflix release and throughout the Oscar. I would assume a big part of that was specifically the blowjob scene, which we should talk about at least a little bit, since it's a Kennedy. It's the one Kennedy connection. Another thing is, as I said, Netflix brought in Jennifer Lame, who is the editor that worked on Hereditary Antenna, to do a pass at the movie. There were accusations that it has kind of pro life elements, which I would love to hear both of your takes on. And of course, many people also just did not fully grasp that it was a fictionalized account. So there was also confusion around, like, what are we doing here? Why is she in a throuple?

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about. It intentionally blurs the line between what is fact and what is fiction. So it kind of tries to make itself immune to any criticism of depiction because it's like, well, it's fictional, but a lot of it isn't. So I hated that. The pro life angle of this is so weird. I was really not expecting it. But. But basically, if you haven't seen the movie, Marilyn becomes pregnant via her throuple. We don't know which one of them is the father. And then she gets like a big movie and decides that she has to get an abortion. But then as she's driving there, she decides she doesn't want to do it and she's changed her mind. And that already sets the scene for being a little murky. And then you go into her uterus in the movie and you see the fetus, which is a fetus that is much further along than what it would have been at that point in the pregnancy. It's like a fully formed baby at that point point when I think she was only supposed to be like six weeks along, six or eight weeks along or something like that. And it would have just been like a bunch of cells. It would not have been a baby with hands and eyes, which is what they show you. And then they do it again when she is pregnant with Arthur Miller's baby, which really happened. She was pregnant, she did miscarry, and she gets pregnant with this baby and then once again, they go into her uterus and it is a fully formed baby. And then the baby talks to her and says, are you going to do it again? Are you going to do what did to me before? And then she's like, you're not even the same baby. It wasn't you. I want you. And the baby is like, no, it was me. It's always been me. And it's just crazy. Again, this is one of those things where I'm like, well, this. Yes. This is a movie that is made by a man, certainly.

[George Severis]

And it's another way in which it sets you up to be woke, schooled. Because, like, of course, the answer to everything we're saying is, well, yes, that's not what the fetus actually looks like. But she's imagining it as a baby because she is mourning the potential of her child's life. And it's like, yes, but it is actually still bad.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's not like I feel like Dominic was consciously, like, I want to make a pro life statement at all for this movie. It's just inadvertently such because in the way he's trying to be sort of impressionistic with it, it's just like, well, yeah, but that's what it seems like. It seems like you're making a statement. All of her fetuses over the years could talk to her and our fully formed life and aborting them is a terrible, terrible thing to do.

[Julia Claire]

It kind of reminded me of how Juno is unintentionally a pro life movie because Juno is convinced not to get an abortion by an abortion clinic protester who tells her that her baby has fingernails.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Yeah. Which, yes, it's something I think about often, honestly, that this movie that is very much not at all meant to be politically conservative. No one misinterprets it that way. It's not like people are coming out of it being like, I guess I should be pro life. But it just is this funny detail that is not interrogated at all in the film. Yeah, but it's also. It's funny because it is true to life, because you can imagine a teen believing something they hear from an unreliable source.

[Julia Claire]

Totally.

[George Severis]

And you don't want the movie to, like, hammer you over the head with it, but because it is just. It is something that could happen. You're confused at that age. You don't know. Whatever. Juno aside, because at least Juno is in the film, a teenage girl. Marilyn actually is a grown woman who is not granted any.

[Julia Claire]

It's.

[George Severis]

It's as though she is a child and as though she genuinely doesn't understand how, like, pregnancy works.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, but I mean, also it's the way. I mean, the other thing that feels icky and pro life to me is the way that the abortions themselves are framed as rape, as essentially, yes, they are another example of a man taking her agency away from her.

[Julia Claire]

It's a really violent scene.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, it's really, really violent. It's really upsetting. And it's another litany of the way she was abused by the system of men.

[Julia Claire]

And we should say, because we haven't even mentioned the actual rape that happens in the movie, which happens, like, pretty early on, and she goes in to read for a studio head and he just wordlessly starts raping her. Is also very upsetting. There is no shortage of rape in film. But this movie really, like, hits you over the head again and again with abuse and mistreatment. And she is infantilized. I mean, and like, the real Marilyn was infantilized. And that was part of her public Persona, too, doing the baby voice. But, yeah, I think the thing over and over again that bothers me is that this film really gives her no agency and makes her completely at the whim of abusive men.

[George Severis]

Speaking of which, we should talk about the one where we have a Kennedy present, which a sort of fun fact is that the actor who plays JFK in the film also plays JFK in Hubble Reigns Jackie with Natalie Portman, which we've talked about on this podcast. Just to very briefly describe the scene. She is in a car. She says in conversation something like, my relationship with the President is not sexual, or something along those lines. And then two secret Service agents based on basically, like, carry her, like in a very literal way, like a sack of meat, or lift her off the ground to carry her into the President's bedroom. JFK is lying half naked on the bed on the phone with someone who is in fact scolding him about his affairs and about his promiscuity. And while that's happening, he asks her to give him a blowjob. That happens in real time. Like, you know, you literally see her going up and down and he keeps saying, like, no go. More like, come on, like, whatever, don't

[Julia Claire]

be shy, don't be shy.

[George Severis]

And then when he climaxes, it coincides with a scene in a movie that they're watching where a building explodes because a UFO goes into it.

[Julia Claire]

A ufo? Yeah.

[George Severis]

And so for our purposes, I mean, the aesthetics and just like kind of inherent, I don't know, misogynistic undertones of the scene aside for our purposes, something that is interesting about this scene is that I would say of all the Kennedy media we have consumed, with maybe the exception of some left wing historians, this is probably the worst depiction of a Kennedy we've ever seen. I mean, for as much as the movie doesn't respect Marilyn, at the very least, it also doesn't respect any of the men that were abusive to her. I mean, he is portrayed as worse than her abusive husband, worse than Arthur Miller, worse than anyone who gave her.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Worse than Joe Dimasio, like, gave her

[George Severis]

drugs, gave her pills, whatever. Like, he is really portrayed as just like a completely amoral, sex addicted, abuse kind of monster, which I thought was at the very least interesting in the scheme of, like, the topics of this podcast.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Also, doesn't it imply that, like, after the blowjob, he then rapes her? Or at least, you know, because then she. It sort of cuts and she wakes up in the morning and her, like, lipstick is smeared and she's incapacitated to a certain degree.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Which at that point, so much has happened to her. I mean, she undergoes just a series of increasingly violent humiliations that, I mean, we get to Kennedy two and a half hours into the movie, basically of a three hour movie. And so at that point, you're sort of barely registering the specifics of the violence that's taking place, which of course has the opposite intended effect of reclaiming her story or making you have any empathy for her. Because you're basically right, it kind of numbs you. Exactly, it, like numbs you completely. And then at the end you're just like, please just make it stop. Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And I think one of the things, too, is, again with the. The violence. Joe DiMaggio was known to be physically abusive to her, and she left him. And none of that was shown. Like, the abuse happened. And then it's like her father sending her a letter saying, like, I'm sorry to see that your marriage is ending in divorce. There's no moment of agency where she's like, I'm leaving. Which actually did happen. She decided she didn't want to deal with that anymore, and J. Marilyn left.

[George Severis]

But it just doesn't fit into the narrative of the film. That's like, she's just a propaganda perpetual victim.

[Julia Claire]

It's 2 hours and 45 minutes of stuff happening to her, which is. It is this whole movie. That's what, like, frustrates me most about this, is that she is just kind of along for the ride. And I don't know. I just don't know how. Like, where is the feminism?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Well, we gotta get Ana de Armasson, and she will explain. Well, Esther, sorry to end on such a sunny note, but do you have any sense? I mean, I want to basically ask your final thoughts. Like, do you have any sense of if there's any lasting legacy of this movie? To me, it's such a. Like, blip in time. Much, like, so much Netflix stuff that seems important in the moment. Honestly, now, when I think back to this movie, all I think of is,

[Esther Zuckerman]

girl, you a great blonde, Which I think about a lot. I mean, I think, honestly, that's less of a fault of the movie itself and more of the fault of Netflix, which I think has the habit of doing this too. Because I think whatever you want to say about this movie, which we've sort of wrestled with over. Over the course of this conversation, like, I think it's sort of evil. I think it's very frustrating. I do think it is a work of art worth reckoning with because of what it's attempting to do. And you have to imagine that if it wasn't just a Netflix release that played in, like, two theaters in New York for a couple minutes and then was thrown on the platform, like, it would have more of a legacy in that respect. I think it's just that in that case, it feels so much more like a part of this weird time of, like, yeah, we had all these, like, crazy things happening, but because of streaming, they sort of don't exist.

[George Severis]

Yeah, it's funny because obviously none of us like the movie, but on the other hand, I'm almost nostalgic, even for a recent past where a movie this cuckoo could even get made and be put on a streamer.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, and you know, loving. You know, not to sound like corny but like loving cinemas like hating sometimes movies and arguing about them and like I think it only got made need in the form that it did because Netflix existed but because of the circumstances it really feels Memory hold.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, totally.

[George Severis]

Well memory hold both for sad and for correct reasons. I think we can all agree. Esther, thank you so much for coming on and again, apologies for making you rewatch at least parts of this three hour slog fest.

[Julia Claire]

Thank you.

[George Severis]

Bye bye.

[Julia Claire]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

Every week, United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Claire and George Severis.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

[Julia Claire]

Editing by Graham Gibson.

[George Severis]

Mixing and mastering by Doug Boehm.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart podcasts.

[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, so what if you could boost the WI fi to one of your devices when you need it most?

[Bowen Yang]

Because Xfinity wifi can. And what if your wifi could fix itself before there's even really a problem? Xfinity is so reliable. It does that too.

[Matt Rogers]

What if your wifi had parental instincts? Xfinity wifi is part nanny, part ninja, protecting your kids while they finally, what

[Bowen Yang]

if your WI fi was like the smartest WI fi?

[Matt Rogers]

Yeah, it's WI fi that is so smart it makes everything work better together.

[Bowen Yang]

Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI fi that's got your back.

[Matt Rogers]

Xfinity. Imagine that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

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[George Severis]

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