Film of the month: Chappaquiddick (2018)

Summary

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United States of Kennedy

Episode: “Film of the Month: Chappaquiddick (2018)”

Hosts: Lyra Smith, George Civeris
Guest: Jason Concepcion
Original Air Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

This installment of United States of Kennedy spotlights the 2018 film Chappaquiddick, which dramatizes the infamous 1969 incident involving Senator Ted Kennedy and the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. Hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris are joined by critic and podcaster Jason Concepcion to deeply discuss how the film handles its controversial subject, its cinematic choices, and why it ultimately fails to provide either dramatic catharsis or meaningful insight into its characters or the Kennedy dynasty itself.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Film’s Approach to the Chappaquiddick Incident

• The movie recounts the canonical version of events: Ted Kennedy’s car plunges into Pocha Pond, resulting in Mary Jo Kopechne’s death, and the subsequent political cover-up.
• The hosts summarize for listeners:

  “They’re having the party, Ted and Mary Jo leave to go talk... He just starts driving like a bat out of hell, crashes into the pond and then leaves her there.”
  (Lyra Smith, 08:31)

• Notably, the film leans into the theory that Kopechne might have survived for some time in an air pocket, and could potentially have been saved if Kennedy sought help.

  “...It endorses the idea that she maybe didn’t drown, but in fact suffocated in the air...she could have been saved if Ted had gone and sought help earlier.”
  (George Civeris & Jason Concepcion, 09:55-10:03)

2. Dramatic and Thematic Shortcomings

• The hosts and Jason largely agree the film is competently made but dramatically inert, failing to take a strong stance or explore the deeper motivations of its characters.

  "If Mr. Curran had a point, he might have forgotten what it was...I left this movie confused about what we just did."
  (Jason Concepcion, 07:39-08:31)

• Lyra and George compare it to other political movies like Oliver Stone’s JFK, bemoaning Chappaquiddick’s aversion to speculation, provocation, or visual audacity.

  “I wish Oliver Stone had directed this.”
  (Lyra Smith, 11:15)

3. Ted Kennedy’s Character: More Cipher Than Man

• The hosts stress the lack of insight into what actually drove Ted Kennedy, both as a politician and as a man.

  "Who the fuck are these weirdos? What drives them?"
  (Jason Concepcion, 12:57)

• The film’s version: a passive, indecisive man in the shadow of his famous family, but never brought fully to dramatic life.

  “He is just passive and not canny the entire time...he's not a good politician, so to speak.”
  (George Civeris, 12:09)

4. Missed Opportunities for Point of View

• The discussion returns frequently to the film’s neutrality—its refusal to pick a moral or psychological position.

  “There’s nothing worse than a safe movie.”
  (Jason Concepcion, 34:58)

• Jason proposes the movie should have chosen a point of view:

  “Here's a stance: I think Ted Kennedy had an uplifting vision...and the tragedy...is he threw that all away...Another take is Ted Kennedy was a piece of shit. But instead, we don't know. Like, there is no stance.”
  (Jason Concepcion, 18:54)

• The hosts also lament that the movie avoids depicting the party’s social dynamics or the scandalous undertones involving the married men present.

5. Structural and Cinematic Choices

• The film’s visual language and structure are discussed as confusing and uninspired, rarely serving to heighten tension or reveal character.

  “The way that it is shot, the way that it is framed in most scenes was confusing to me...It’s almost like everyone’s chest is the bottom of the frame.”
  (Lyra Smith, 21:01)

• The chronological, procedural storytelling is criticized for draining the narrative of energy. Jason suggests an alternative:

  “They should have birdmanned this movie—one shot from the evening and the accident all the way through...”
  (Jason Concepcion, 24:29)

6. Reception, Controversy, and Industry Fallout

• The film’s muted box office and limited critical response are recounted. Jason says:

  “You can make a regular bad movie, but if you're gonna make a bad, boring movie and you're taking a huge shot with Chappaquiddick, then you do run the risk of movie jail.”
  (Jason Concepcion, 40:20)

• George points out that despite the right-wing embrace of the film as “Hollywood finally bashing Democrats,” most audiences simply didn’t care.

  “It's almost like it never existed...for everyone else it just didn't make an impact. It is a completely forgotten movie.”
  (George Civeris, 42:05)

7. What Did Work?

• The hosts and guest concede that the portrayal of Mary Jo Kopechne, though minimal, was among the film’s strongest elements.

  “She is, in a weird way, the most complex character...wrestling with a lot. She's not just a symbol of innocent, beautiful brunette.”
  (George Civeris, 28:00)

• The party scene is cited as effective in depicting the allure of Kennedy connections and the transactional nature of ambition.

  “That beginning scene, the party does a good job of giving you a sense of why you would attach yourselves to this family...”
  (Jason Concepcion, 29:43)

8. Imagining a Better Film

• As the discussion closes, all agree the story deserves stronger storytelling, perhaps focusing on Mary Jo’s point of view or adopting a bolder, riskier formal approach.

  “This movie should have been about Mary Jo. You follow her throughout the day, she's talking about her aspirations...”
  (Jason Concepcion, 44:55)

• The hosts joke about collaborating on a “Mary Jo’s perspective” script for the Hollywood Black List.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the film's lack of direction:

  “It was a movie that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And Kate Mara is phenomenal in it.”
  (George Civeris, 04:44)

• On the missed dramatic opportunity:

  “There's nothing worse than a safe movie. Particularly a safe movie about something where someone died and...changed the course of history, right? Why any episode of Mad Men is better than this.”
  (Jason Concepcion, 34:56)

• On the party scene's untapped tension:

  “Every single man there is married...you shoot that party as a debaucherous, crazy event...but they don't do that. At least paint a picture.”
  (Lyra Smith & George Civeris, 34:17–34:44)

• On the protagonist problem:

  “At one point I wrote down who is the protagonist? I did feel that way watching it. It’s so dryly depicted...”
  (Lyra Smith, 17:44)

• On how a stronger POV would improve the film:

  "You wish they would have just drizzled some hot sauce into this film. Make it from the perspective of Mary Jo. She's a ghost. Do something crazy, man."
  (Jason Concepcion, 43:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:38] Jason’s vivid personal memory of the Chappaquiddick event and initial reactions
• [04:08–04:39] Hosts summarize the film’s cast and version of events
• [06:09–07:29] Jason critiques the adaptation, discussing the film’s most affecting scenes
• [09:55–10:21] Debate over Kopechne’s supposed cause of death
• [11:15–12:09] Reductive characterization of Ted Kennedy and missed dramatic opportunities
• [18:54–19:55] On the film’s lack of a stance and awkward “fathers and sons” angle
• [21:01–21:49] Commentary on odd cinematography and framing
• [22:57–23:43] Right-wing embrace of the movie and its faint culture war afterlife
• [28:00–30:15] Discussion of Mary Jo Kopechne as the most complex character
• [34:44–35:28] Frustration over the movie’s refusal to be dramatic, campy, or formally daring
• [39:33–41:23] Industry fallout and career consequences for the filmmakers
• [44:17–45:39] Proposal for a Mary Jo-centered version of the story
• [46:20–47:04] Reality check on what kinds of Kennedy projects get green-lit

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Episode Conclusion

The consensus: Chappaquiddick is a film of untapped potential—a technically competent but dramatically formless recounting of an event that changed American history. The hosts and guest agree that films about power, morality, and the Kennedy mystique require not just craft, but perspective and guts—a point this movie fatally fails to grasp.

Final thought:

"This movie should have been about Mary Jo...I feel like we've ragged on it so much that the three of us need to write the Mary Jo Kopechne version of Chappaquiddick."
(Lyra Smith & Jason Concepcion, 47:04)

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Next week: The trial of William Kennedy Smith and the dawn of wall-to-wall TV courtroom coverage.

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Transcript

[Lyra Smith]

This is an iHeart podcast. Welcome to the W where legends are made and history is written under the brightest lights. The WNBA delivers non stop action and world class talent every single game and now it all comes down to will the New York Liberty defend their crown or will another team take the chip? This is where champions rise and legacies are defined. Watch the WNBA postseason currently underway on ABC and espn. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card and the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids.

[Jason Concepcion]

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[Lyra Smith]

Track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free green light trial [e-mail] iheart that's greenlight.com iheart hey everyone, it's Sophia Bush, host of the podcast Work in Progress. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a coworker who shows up. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus's benchmarks are feelings. Things like exhilaration and joy and amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you. A machine that makes you feel more human because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. New school year, new routines and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, Cauley power's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas, all natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks ready in minutes in something the whole family can agree on. Caulipwer is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolipower.com to find a store near you what do you remember about the movie Chappaquiddick?

[Jason Concepcion]

Well, it took me right back to the event itself. I remember the breaking news. I remember my mother saying, of course he killed that girl. I remember the actor portraying Ted Kennedy, how he was doing all the things that he did and he was able to get away with it all. Everybody accepted his cover up, which I wasn't surprised by. The power that the wealthy people have and the people in power have over to citizens I remember how insane it.

[Lyra Smith]

Seemed that he could just go to.

[Jason Concepcion]

A motel and then just walk out of there and go have breakfast and be on the phone, things like that.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis. I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about the 2018 movie Kennedy Chappaquiddick. So you might be familiar with the events that happened on Chappaquiddick island, which we covered in our second episode. So if you haven't listened, you can go back and listen to that first, because the events are complicated and I'm not even going into the various conspiracy theories. But today we are talking about the movie. The 2018 movie Chappaquiddick, directed by John.

[Lyra Smith]

Curran, starring Jason Clark and Kate Mara. Chappaquiddick depicts the most popular version of the event of July 18, 1969, when Ted Kennedy drove his car into Pocha Pond and left Mary Jo Kopechne in the submerged car. He never alerted authorities, and her body was found in the car the following morning.

[George Severis]

Jason Clark as Ted Kennedy spends the rest of the movie trying to save his political career, while the death of Mary Jo Kopechne quickly becomes just another Kennedy crisis to be solved by a.

[Lyra Smith]

Team of fixers and spoiler alert of sorts of we did not love this movie.

[George Severis]

One thing I will say about this movie is that there are actors in it and they are saying lines and no one can ever take that away from them. It was a movie that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And Kate Mara is phenomenal in it.

[Lyra Smith]

And so is Ed Helms.

[George Severis]

That's true.

[Lyra Smith]

Helping us dissect the movie today is Jason Concepcion, writer, critic, and host of the podcast X Ray Vision. Jason, thanks for joining us today.

[Jason Concepcion]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Lyra Smith]

We are really excited to talk about the movie chapter Aquiddick with you.

[Jason Concepcion]

What an uplifting film.

[George Severis]

Yes, an uplifting film. And maybe believe most of all in the power of the movies. I do want to get into the movie because at first I thought I would have nothing to say about it, and I really struggled to come up with coherent questions because the experience of watching this movie feels like you are in the process of watching it and you're like, should we put a movie on you forget that you're actually watching a movie. So I want to get into that, but before we do, I want to first talk about the relationship of the film and the real world events of Chappaquiddick. So Lyra and I, a few months ago did an episode on the actual events of Chappaquiddick we had an expert on. We like, did all our research. I would say it's one of those events where the more you read about it, the less sure you are what happened. And so this movie is as good a take as any. But I'm wondering, like, what did you think of the adaptation of real life events as an adaptation?

[Jason Concepcion]

You know, I found it to kind of briefly touch on your comments about being the type of movie where you're watching it and want to put a movie on. I thought it interesting the choices that the filmmaker decided to make with regards to depicting the death of Mary Joe Kopechne by drowning in this vehicle driven by Ted Theodore Kennedy and the kind of unwillingness to make decisions about anything else that I think would be kind of interesting. You know, I don't know. I think the Kennedys are really interesting if you know nothing about Chappaquiddick. This could have been any guy. He could be a banker, he could be a famous film director, he could be just any rich guy. And so I guess I think that this was as good a take as any. And I agree with you. It's one of those things where it's Ted and her. She died in the incident and Ted was shit faced, so what do you really know? And so I thought the scenes depicting Mary Jo's tragic death were, I felt, probably the most affecting stuff actually in the movie. The only thing that I was responding to, I'm not going to say I responded positively to the emotional impact of it, but it was the only thing where I'm leaning in and going, okay, maybe that's the way it happened.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. One of my questions for the group was going to be, is the filmmaker making a point? What is he making?

[Jason Concepcion]

I don't know. I think if Mr. Curran had a point, he might have forgotten what it was or it might have gotten so lost in the don't piss off anybody instincts from the studio and others that it got lost. I'm not sure what the point is. I guess the point was here is a talented guy who killed someone and then ruined his career in the process. But what's interesting about the Kennedys is why we know all the stuff about the dad and him being a bootlegger and John F. Kennedy and the mistresses and the drinking and yada, yada, yada. Why do they want to be in public life? Like, why do they is he good at it? Did he have some kind of greater beliefs in democracy in the United States? Yada, yada, yada. You never get that I don't know anything about this guy. And so I don't know. I left this movie confused about what we just did.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, just to summarize, really, because we've talked about Chappaquiddick on a previous episode. We got a new to me at the time theory or presentation of the series of events. But just so you know, anyone who hasn't seen this movie, what is depicted in the movie is they're having the party, Ted and Mary Jo leave to go talk, and then they're in a car and then he's driving really fast. It's not even super clear as to why he's driving really fast. They're spotted by a cop, but there isn't a problem. He just starts driving like a bat out of hell, crashes into the pond and then leaves her there. Goes back to the party, gets his cousin, slash lawyer, gets his friend. They try to get her out. It doesn't happen. And then Ted walks through the next few hours.

[George Severis]

Well, they tell him that he should report it to the police. He tells them he will, but doesn't.

[Jason Concepcion]

Takes and then eight or nine hours for him to do that.

[George Severis]

And then the body is discovered by passersby and then they discover that the car is registered under Ted Kennedy's name.

[Lyra Smith]

So that's the version of events that is being portrayed in this movie, is kind of the classic story of Chappaquiddick we've heard some other versions of. Just so anybody who hasn't seen it knows that's what they.

[George Severis]

And also it endorses the idea that she maybe didn't drown, but in fact.

[Jason Concepcion]

Suffocated in the air. In the air bubble.

[George Severis]

Yes, because there was an air bubble and she theoretically there's a chance she could have been saved if Ted had gone and sought help earlier, which is, of course, people that are mad at Ted Kennedy say that he was responsible for her death two times over. Once for crashing the car and twice for not reporting.

[Jason Concepcion]

What are your thoughts on that? From my perspective, whether she died in the air bubble or she died by drowning, we're thin slicing it now. It's like his fault 100%.

[Lyra Smith]

Yes.

[George Severis]

He was drunk driving and drove a car off a bridge.

[Lyra Smith]

So it's sort of like it's involuntary manslaughter for sure.

[George Severis]

It's engages 100%. What's interesting about this movie, one of our last movie episodes was about Oliver Stone's jfk. And Oliver Stone's JFK does something very different, which is that it really goes all in on the conspiracy theorizing, which is like, enjoyable and thrilling to watch, even if you don't buy the conspiracy theory because it's just made in this coked out, crazy way. Yeah, this movie is almost the opposite, where it is very careful not to go into conspiracy theorizing. So much so that it ends up being like a straightforward chronological account of events. And I wish this filmmaker was crazier. I wish she had some crazy theory.

[Lyra Smith]

I literally thought to myself, I wish Oliver Stone had directed this.

[George Severis]

But I do want to go back to your point, Jason, about the mystery at the core of who Ted Kennedy is. Because we know that this family is committed to being public servants, is committed to politics. So why? What is reasoning why? And I actually think on paper, the portrayal of Ted Kennedy is interesting in terms of those questions, because he basically says, I was not the chosen son, which was Joe Kennedy Jr. I was not the charismatic one, which was Jack, but I'm the only one you have. And so this is the best you're gonna get. And there is something just cinematic and tragic about that. If done well, somehow it doesn't quite land.

[Jason Concepcion]

I agree with you. That's a scene of him just saying who he is. It would have been nice to see that played out in some sort of scene where you get an understanding of him, but that never appears.

[George Severis]

No, the closest we get is the fact that he is just passive and not canny the entire time. You do get the sense that he's not a good politician, so to speak. And I think what makes the whole thing even more interesting, and this is not the movie, just Ted Kennedy as a person, is that he's portrayed as the least charismatic and the least talented of the bunch. And yet he is the one that had the longest and most consequential political career. Like, undoubtedly, he's the fourth longest serving member of the Senate, as we were informed by the end credits. So there is something interesting about that. And you're like, just give me something.

[Jason Concepcion]

I kept coming back to it. My first note was, so who are the candidates? Who are they? Again, this could have been a story about any person, any powerful person. And by the way, have you done 13 days yet?

[George Severis]

No, no, but it is on our list.

[Jason Concepcion]

I think 13 days might be the one. Because, you know, it's JFK and Robert. So he's the Attorney General at the time. So you get an idea of what they're like together. But I think it's the only one where you get the sense of who they are. And that's the only thing that's interesting to me. The only real mystery about the Kennedys. Who the fuck are these weirdos? What drives them? They've been around for so long. Why do they want to serve the public? Do they have any beliefs that they actually hold on to dearly? And you get that they're ambitious and in this movie he's telling you that he's ambitious and that people have a lot invested in his success, but you never get into the interior of the person. And that's the same with every single Kennedy film depiction on film. And it's very frustrating to me.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, there's just so many scenes that are him silently alone, thinking maybe, yeah.

[George Severis]

Well, he loves burying his head in his hands. That's sort of his classic signature move.

[Lyra Smith]

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[George Severis]

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[George Severis]

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[Lyra Smith]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

It's funny because again, a lot of what we're describing is by design. It just doesn't land like it is true that he's meant to be this cowardly, tragic figure. It is true that he is indecisive. He doesn't stand for anything. He is, as we learned in the very first scene of him being interviewed, he's in the shadow of his brother. He's not meant to be a hero we're rooting for, but then he's not quite the villain. And so you're like, okay, well, if just narratively speaking, if he's not our hero or our villain, then we need some other big bombastic personality. Like, we need someone like Joe Pesci and JFK that comes in and does something that we can sort of like grasp onto.

[Lyra Smith]

At one point I wrote down who is the protagonist? Yes, like such a silly question, but I did feel that way watching it. It's so dryly depicted that he is the bad guy. He's greedy. I mean, I don't know if greedy is exactly the right word, but ambitious to the point of just wanting power without caring about other people. I mean, this is how he's being presented based on his reaction to killing someone.

[George Severis]

But I also think he's being presented as a son trying to please his dad. Like, I don't think he's some ambition.

[Lyra Smith]

It's. This is what it's supposed to be, I believe, portraying in all of the second half of the movie, while his focus Just becomes, how do I get out of this? How do I just save my political career? And then you see him losing all of his emotional and familial connections to anyone else around him that he had in the beginning. But it's just so neutral on it.

[Jason Concepcion]

I completely. Back to the point about there being no stance. Here's a stance. I think Ted Kennedy had a uplifting vision for the United States that he really cared about. And when he was going to be president, he was going to pull us out of Vietnam, whatever, and make the country better. And the tragedy, in addition to the death of Mary Jo, is that he threw that all away on this drunken evening. That's a take. Another take is Ted Kennedy was a piece of shit who we dodged one with Chappaquiddick, because he would have been a piece of shit president. But instead, we don't know. Like, there is no stance in that regard. And it does feel to me as if shockingly, in the middle of the film, they want to make it about fathers and sons and pleasing dad. And that is the point where the movie veers dangerously towards comedy. The reveal of Bruce Dern when they wheel him out. I'm sorry, but I was laughing.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I know. It's tough because there's also so many opportunities to have other slightly comedic or humorous elements. I mean, you have Ed Helms and Jim Gaffigan, like, ratchet up those performances and have the various goons, the various Kennedy hanger ons, be more big and campy and interesting. You can have one person telling Ted to do this thing and the other person telling him to do this thing. And they're both kind of stereotypical Boston guys or something, but they're actually all giving pretty grounded performances for what they are. So then when you get Bruce Dern drooling, you can't help but be like, finally, someone's committing.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah, right. Someone's going for it. Yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

But yet it doesn't land as the dramatic moment that it's supposed to be.

[Lyra Smith]

I did think Ed Helms was really good. I thought.

[George Severis]

I honestly thought all the actors were perfectly competent. What frustrated me about this movie is that there's an uncanny Valley like quality to it because everything is almost good. The main guy looks like he almost is a famous actor. It's shot in a way that implies it could be a big Oscar movie. There are stakes. It's about historical figures. It's competently made, it's competently acted. And yet at every point you're like, oh, give me 30% more the way.

[Lyra Smith]

That it is shot, the way that it is framed in most scenes was confusing to me. It's a shot that I think is supposed to mean something, but I couldn't understand what it is. The camera, it's. It's almost like everyone's chest is the bottom of the frame and the camera is at a bit of an angle, tilted back. And they do it over and over and over again. Anytime there's an individual just delivering a line to a group of people, which happens like every other scene. The police chief, Ted, Ed Helms, it happens over and over again. And the way that it's shot, I kept thinking, why? What does that mean? What am I supposed to think? And I'm still lost on what that choice was.

[George Severis]

I think it goes back to what both of you were saying about the lack of commitment to a vision. Like this movie almost feels like it was made to be shown in schools to teach kids about historical events.

[Jason Concepcion]

That's a great comp.

[George Severis]

To what end? Because it's not like, oh, they sanitized it because they didn't want to upset the Kennedys. The Kennedy family was upset. The right wing commentators did embrace the movie. Like anything you would try to change it to avoid did happen. So the only thing that the tampering of the drama did was make sure that the movie bombed.

[Lyra Smith]

The first thing that I do after every movie that I watch is go to Reddit and just see what people thought. And what was interesting about this was that I could find so few posts about it. And all of them, except for one or two, was a conservative group, like some conservative subreddit. And they all were saying, finally, Hollywood goes after the Democrats for once. You know, it was like this weird triumphant thing to them that this true story was told as if that's not what happens in historical dramas every year.

[George Severis]

But the response to this movie was that it was embraced by certain right wing people, like Rush Limbaugh talked about it a lot, whatever. And then as a response to that, there was some sort of finger wagging on the left where there was an op ed in the Times by Neil Gabler, who wrote about biography of Ted Kennedy. And he was like, this movie is sensationalist and it spreads these lies and conspiracy theories. And I read that this morning. I was like, if only.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah, I wish. Yeah, we wish. It was sensational.

[George Severis]

So it's this funny thing where the right wing commentators just will latch onto anything that seems like it's for their cause. And then a couple of people basically fell for the bait and felt the need to disown the film or defend it or whatever. And then meanwhile, audiences didn't care.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, it's not worth it.

[Jason Concepcion]

It's a boring movie that repeats three core scenes again and again. Ted alone, sitting with his head in his hands or staring at something. And you don't know what he's thinking. Ted addressing the room full of guys who. He's like, how do I get out of this one, guys? And they're pitching him ideas, and then they're outside around where the Axen am is. He's a great kid. Every scene in this movie to the point that if you look away and come back, you're like, do we go somewhere else and come back to this, or is this still going? I came away feeling the chronological decision is really strange to me. I came away feeling like they should have birdmanned this movie. One shot from the evening and the accident all the way through.

[Lyra Smith]

That would be.

[Jason Concepcion]

So him arguing with the people. Now the tension is building just by the fact that you're watching this without any cuts. But the fact that they cut but still went chronologically just gives you this formless void of feeling of a movie with no acts and no beginning and no end that just keeps going.

[George Severis]

Totally. No. It felt like it was honestly trying to avoid cliches and sensationalism to a fault. Because there are many sort of cliche ways you could frame it. There's, for example, a very obvious one is to do an interview with Ted Kennedy and then flashbacks as he's doing the interview. That's actually what they did for Pablo Lorraine's Jackie, which we just discussed a couple of weeks ago. You could have it be jumping back and forth and play with time. You could have it told from different perspectives and have the cliche be that everyone had a different experience of this event. You could do Mary Jo's perspective and Ted's perspective, whatever. They were trying to avoid formal cliches to such an extent that they ended up just presenting everything in the most straightforward way. And I honestly think that also happened with the performances and like. And that's why there are no. Because they were like, we don't want it to be a giant speech that feels too cliche or too Oscar Y. So instead, we're gonna have everyone talk in a monotone and not really say anything that dramatic. Which, as we said, made the Bruce Dern thing even more ridiculous. Because when you have him being like, alibi, like within a movie that makes no other. No other big decisions like that, like, it's gonna sound ridiculous. The alibi thing would have not sounded ridiculous if you had a bunch of people, you know, grandstanding in every scene.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

Mm. Cause also, that is one of the fabrications of this movie is that at this point in time, Joe Kennedy Sr. He couldn't speak anymore. He was not able to be a part of the decision making here. He'd had a stroke, and he was just a couple months away from passing away. So to make that one big decision to fabricate his involvement and then have it be his rosebud, his reverse rosebud, I guess, or whatever, his alibi, and then not even exploring that, then Ted's big attempt to get an alibi is he asks somebody what time it is. It's a really funny way to get an alibi.

[Jason Concepcion]

Assembles the brain trust. And it's just been like, guys, how do I get out of this one? Guys?

[George Severis]

I know. All right. I'm very aware of the fact that we're all sort of piling on this movie. So I want to give us a challenge, and I have an answer for myself. Is there anything we liked about this movie? What did we appreciate?

[Lyra Smith]

I liked that Elliot Page's two ex girlfriends were in it together. And I thought about that the whole time.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God, that's true.

[Jason Concepcion]

Wow.

[George Severis]

Yes. It was nice to see Olivia Thirlby, someone I only associate with Junot. So I would say mine is that I actually felt that the portrayal of Mary Jo was one of the stronger parts of the movie. And I thought there was a very conscious decision to give her personality when we saw her on screen, which then made the Kennedys dealings with her after the fact seem even more evil because they are just treating her as, like, a problem to be solved. Not a single one of them is speaking about her as though she's an individual with a personality with a history. All of them allegedly were friendly with her. She worked for Bobby, and they're speaking about her in such a cold, distant way. And I think that really does land, you know, at times because you have experienced her in the beginning as someone with a complicated relationship to her job and to this family and to politics.

[Lyra Smith]

She's talented.

[George Severis]

Yes. And if anything, she's, like, sought after.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. For her job. Yeah.

[George Severis]

In her few scenes, she is, in a weird way, the most complex character, which, to be clear, is not saying a lot in this movie, but she is someone who is wrestling with a lot. She's not just a symbol of innocent, beautiful brunette.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. Well, also, the first conversation about the evening Is there is no party without the girls. And Ted is very concerned about making sure that they have a way onto the island and someone's making sure that they get settled. And then the party is supposed to be thanking them a bit. That's the way it's presented. His speech is just saying we're all family now. Which is, you know, they were very important to him when they were working for his family. And then the second that yeah, he murdered one of them.

[Jason Concepcion]

They're not anything caused the death of.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, caused the death of. Sure. I know it's not murder. It certainly feels murder. Ish. Yeah.

[Jason Concepcion]

Oh, sure. You know, there's a level of cowardice to the whole affair that is unseemly for anyone and certainly for someone who deans to be in a leadership position at that level or at any level. It's cowardly in a way that I think is existentially disgusting. I think the performances were good. I do agree that. I think that everybody performed competently. I agree with you that you get the sense that they never really let anybody off the reins like you wanted. Like, do I wanna see Ed Helms playing it straight and going yad every like other the haba, you know, every couple of lines of dialogue. I will say that that beginning scene, the party does a good job of giving you a sense of why you would attach yourselves to this family. You know, of how a person's ambitions might lead you to a position like that and this sense of playing a larger political game by being associated with them. And you never get the sense to your point about like, she's not the kind of like innocent, wide eyed person. You get the sense that she understands who they are, she's clear eyed about what her job is and she's trying to get the most out of it by playing this game. And so that I thought was probably the most interesting part of the film.

[George Severis]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Lyra Smith]

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[George Severis]

I think the idealism of the Kennedys seems to have died with Jack and Bobby. And this movie is a depiction of what's left. Everything just seems like everyone's running on fumes. And I think you sort of get that at the party, like, they're all happy to be with one another, but it also has a mournful undercurrent.

[Lyra Smith]

The other thing about the party that nobody mentions in this movie that I wish they had, because it would have been more interesting, is that every single man there is married.

[George Severis]

This is another way where this filmmaker was trying to be even keeled and not be unfair to anyone. Because there's a world where you shoot that party as like, a debaucherous, crazy event where all these men are hitting drunk men are hitting on these young women, and they don't do that. And you're sort of like, okay, well, at least paint a picture.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. It would have been something to watch. This is what I was saying before we started recording. You know, this movie is not terrible. And that is almost worse.

[Jason Concepcion]

I agree.

[Lyra Smith]

It was really bad.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah. There's nothing worse than a safe movie.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jason Concepcion]

Particularly a safe movie about something where somebody died and a ascendant political career that had the. I mean, you could, I think, reasonably make the case that this event changed the course of history. Right. And then to make a safe movie about that is like, what are we doing? Why any episode of Mad Men is better than this.

[George Severis]

It could have used a little more Mad Men. Yes. It could have really leaned into the period piece, drama camp of it all.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, I was kept thinking, because at first I did not think they were gonna show her in the car. That doesn't happen for a little while after the accident. And I thought that was it. And they weren't gonna explore that theory that she was alive in the car for a while. But then when they started showing it, I was thinking about how Joyce Carol Oates wrote a short story that was inspired by Chappaquiddick that some people say was the thing that brought it back into the collective memory. And that entire story takes place in the time that she's drowning.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

And it's flashbacks and it's her thought and it's all of her thoughts leading up to the accident and where she's going. You know, the whole story takes place in that time that she's drowning in the car. And that's so cinematic. And that's a short story, you know. But then to watch the movie and it have it be so not Cinematic.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And the story is called Black Water. It's a novella.

[Jason Concepcion]

You know what I thought they were gonna do when they. Because I agree with you, that was gripping stuff to watch and really, really harrowing. I thought what they were gonna do was, okay, we've shown you this horrendous way, this drawn out way where you understand, she understands what's happening, what's going to happen, and she's so afraid. And then I thought they were gonna mirror that with Kennedy looking for exits. I'm looking for a way out of this, but the walls are closing in and it's all constricting on me. And in the end, I'm trapped in this isolated bubble by myself. And instead the movie just kind of lets go of you after this drawn out death scene. And then when they show you the body again, as if to say, don't forget this happened. And then I thought, okay, well, they're not gonna do that, but they're gonna have these flashbacks so you understand the guilt is weighing on him. And then they let go of that too. No, but there's a moment in that first quarter of a movie where you're thinking, oh, there's interesting avenues that this can go.

[Lyra Smith]

I also, going back to my question of who's the protagonist? At one point I wrote down, what's the climax?

[George Severis]

I would say maybe they want the climax to be Joe slapping Ted.

[Lyra Smith]

In a way, I felt like maybe it was very. Yet when he's deciding which speech.

[Jason Concepcion]

The King's speech ending. Yeah, it felt like they had three choices and the three choices were confrontation with dad. And it felt like, oh, it could be this. But then they chickened out. And then it was gonna be King's speech. Can he select the correct truth telling speech? Right. And then it was gonna be reunion with dad, not the confrontation, but like, I've got his love back and I understand why he sent me on this path. And then it's. It was like none of those. Yeah, what was it?

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

The way to combine all of those is to make it almost like a systems movie, which is sort of what JFK was. It's about a network of different people that each have different motives, each lying to some extent to further their own agendas, whatever. But the different people don't really connect. And it all feels very disjointed. And there are parts when all of the brain trust, as you say, are in the war room and you're like, okay, let's get this going. Let's get a conversation going where everyone's talking over one another and one person is yelling at this person, the other person's accusing them, and it just ends. And then you go to Joe and he's drooling and he's slapping his son. Okay, all right, so I want to talk a little bit and especially with you, because I feel like you will have a good take on the industry side of this. I want to talk about the fallout and the legacy of this movie because this is a movie that really affected the careers of its writers and its director and arguably its lead actor in a pretty severe way. Because there is a world in which this movie was a success and. And these writers went on to write a bunch of other political thrillers. The director went on to direct more high profile projects. Jason Clark, Is that his name? The lead, like Jason Clark went because he's a clearly a great actor.

[Jason Concepcion]

He's in a lot of stuff, but.

[George Severis]

He'S like a working character actor in B rate movies. But the writers have not gotten another film produced since then. The director hasn't done much. One of the things that I wrote down because it added to the weird, uncanny quality of it, is that the production company is called Entertainment Studios Motion Pictures. And I looked them up and they also have only produced weird movies no one has ever heard of.

[Lyra Smith]

Also the logo of in the opening, it's like from. I don't know, it looks like a straight to video Microsoft Word default. Like in 1998, you opened it up and you're like, you need a logo for a movie studio. Here you go. This is it.

[George Severis]

Yeah. So what is your take on these filmmakers?

[Jason Concepcion]

I don't think that the downswing in the careers of the various people associated with this is necessarily due to anything more complex than they made a very high profile bad movie. Yeah, you can make a regular bad movie, but if you're gonna make a bad, boring movie and you're taking a huge shot with Chappaquiddick, then you do run the risk of movie jail. Now, I will say, just looking at it, you see the red flags. In retrospect, I don't know that this director was clearly the right guy for this. I don't know that Jason Clark is, you know, Ed Helm's probably more famous than him. I think it's really as simple as they made a bad, boring film that caused a lot of controversy. And that is kind of a recipe for career jail, I think in the entertainment industry, or at least, you know, people in this have worked again. But I think it's as simple as that. They made a bad high profile film that was controversial.

[George Severis]

Yeah, because I remember it being controversial and then I was trying to find proof that it was controversial other than the right wing fear mongering and the op ed and whatever. I could have sworn this movie was like a punchline, like online. And I was trying to find proof of it and I couldn't. It's almost like it never existed. And I incepted myself. I know it was a moderate flop like it was, I'm seeing here now. It had a budget of 34 million and the box office. This was 18 million. That is, that's obviously not great, but it's not the biggest flop in the history of film. It almost, I think maybe it was controversial if you were in the industry and you knew what was going on. And then for everyone else it just like didn't make an impact. Like it is a completely forgotten movie.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah. And I also think, you know, what was this 20?

[George Severis]

It was made in 2017 and then we found out it was supposed to be released for Oscar season and then it got pushed to 2018. So it actually is technically a 2018 release.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yeah, I think it's several things. I think people certainly by 2018 and continuing today are like, can I just go to the movies and not do politics?

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Jason Concepcion]

I think you're also talking about the last cresting of the comic book movie wave. So nobody fucking gave a shit about this adult mid budget historical drama. I agree with you. I understand it was controversial and I understand that a lot of right wing ideologues were really crowing about this movie. I also remember not thinking about this movie at all.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I had sort of an aha moment when you were just saying that people didn't want politics on screen. Because I think on the one hand you are obviously right that there was a politics fatigue, but on the other hand, almost the opposite was also true in that with the first years of the first Trump administration, people did want a certain kind of political media, but they wanted it to be really preachy and either angry or super inspirational. They wanted the black and white narrative that made you stand up and say, we're not going to take this anymore. Like, I think a movie that villainized Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party has always been this way. And Trump is. You know, I think the major flaw of this movie in terms of the timing was that it didn't take any big stance in an era when all people wanted was to be angry about Trump.

[Lyra Smith]

One might call that a point of view.

[George Severis]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

Perspective, a point of view, a take.

[Jason Concepcion]

I completely agree. You know, I think 13 hours in Benghazi came out before the Michael Bay propagandistic action movie about the events in Benghazi during the late Obama administration. And I will say politically terrible. Like all Michael Bay films, very watchable and exciting film. And you wish they would have just like drizzled some hot sauce into this film and give us something, man. Do, like, make it like, from the perspective of Mary Jo. She's a ghost. Do something crazy, man.

[Lyra Smith]

Piss me off.

[Jason Concepcion]

Other than looking at my watch.

[George Severis]

And even the Mary Jo element of it, it's funny. Like, these were very black and white political times, like the early Trump era, truly. You look back on it now and you cannot believe that it was so recent. But the two things that were very much, especially for left of center liberal audiences, the two things they cared about politically were Trump and the MeToo movement. This actually has the potential to touch on both of those things. It's about political corruption. It's about a woman that was. Was discarded and not left for dead and literally left for dead by a man in power. I'm not saying I would have loved it if it was a movie that was super preachy and black and white, but I'm like, I don't know.

[Jason Concepcion]

I think that. I think we keep selecting the wrong protagonist. This movie should have been about Mary Jo. You follow her throughout the day. She's talking about her aspirations, what she's hoping to do in her career, in her life, and then it's tragically cut short. I just recently read a book about one of the diplomats that. His name is Talleyrand. He worked for the French government under the late revolution, Napoleon, when the king came back, and then the government after they deposed the king. And the whole time it was because everybody hated him, he was corrupt. But they also were like, fuck, we need to get this guy back. And I kept going like, why don't we make a movie about this guy and not Napoleon? And I feel the same way about this. Like, this should be her movie.

[George Severis]

Yeah, to that exact point. It made me appreciate the movie, Jackie, more than I did when we first saw it a couple weeks ago. Because that's exactly what they did there. I mean, obviously Jackie O. Is a much more well known figure than Mary Jo Kopechny, but they took this event, whose protagonist is undoubtedly John F. Kennedy, not Jackie, and they told it through a different perspective, through this technically passive viewer of the events that were happening, and put her front and center there's.

[Lyra Smith]

A really strong voice choice to it.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

It's very recognizable as Pablo Lorraine. Yeah. A person could not like it. A person could have a criticism of it, but that criticism would be because of choices that were made, like strong choices.

[George Severis]

And this is exactly why I think both of us were struggling to come up with questions. It's like you don't know what your reaction is to something that isn't positing something.

[Jason Concepcion]

Yes. It's just kind of like here's what happened. I have no thoughts on. And then we walk away. I will say that I think that to your question about industry, the reactions, I think probably this movie doesn't get made if you write a script about Mary Jo Kopechne. Right. You know, like whatever the name of the studio is. I forget movie pictures, entertainment studios, motion pictures. They're gonna go, I'm gonna give you $30 million to make a movie about. No, you gotta make it about Ted. Because nobody knows who Mary Jo like Ted Kennedy, the Kennedy and all of those things. I think contribute a boring movie.

[Lyra Smith]

I feel like we've ragged on it so much that the three of us need to write the Mary Jo Kopechne version of Chappaquini.

[George Severis]

I know, I mean.

[Lyra Smith]

And get on that blacklist.

[George Severis]

Yes. Just like these two writers were on the blacklist and now they haven't made a movie in 10 years.

[Lyra Smith]

Jason, thank you so much.

[George Severis]

Jason, thank you so much. This was so much fun and thank you for humoring us and rewatching one of the most weird movies of the last 10 years.

[Jason Concepcion]

Excited to get your reactions. To hear your reactions to 13 days.

[George Severis]

Oh my God, we can't wait. Maybe we'll have you back.

[Lyra Smith]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Lyra Smith and George Severis. Original music by Joshua Topolsky. Mixing and mastering by Graham Gibson and Doug Behm.

[George Severis]

Research by Dave Ruse and Austin Thompson. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle. United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart podcast. Next week we're talking about the criminal trial of William Kennedy Smith and its non stop coverage on Court TV that changed the media landscape forever.

[Lyra Smith]

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week.

[Jason Concepcion]

Witness the new season of Reasonable Doubt Streaming on Hulu September 18th.

[Lyra Smith]

LA's most successful attorney General Jack Stewart defends a young actor accused of murder.

[Jason Concepcion]

Follow Emma Yatty Coronaldi, Morris Chestnut, Joseph Sikora and guest stars Cash Dahl and.

[Lyra Smith]

Lori Harvey as they face off in the year's most sensational trial in the pursuit of justice. Every move counts. Reasonable Doubt Season 3 is streaming on.

[Jason Concepcion]

Hulu and Hulu on Disney September 18th.

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[George Severis]

This episode is supported by FX is the Lowdown starring Ethan Hawke. Allow us to introduce you to Lee Raybon, a quirky journalist, rare bookstore owner, unofficial truth seeker who is always on the tail of his latest conspiracy. This time, his most recent expose puts him head to head with a powerful family that rules Tulsa, meaning only one thing he must be on to something big.

[Jason Concepcion]

FX is the Lowdown.

[George Severis]

Premiere September 23rd on FX, stream on Hulu.

[Lyra Smith]

This is an iHeart podcast.