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- [00:00]
A
This is an iheart podcast.
- [00:05]
B
This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Anabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [01:06]
C
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A
Life, it's important to find the right color. That's why Mylo's Rewards members get a free Valspar paint or exterior stain sample to test your look to confidently refresh your space. Offer Valid in store only 87820 limit one per customer while supplies last. Discount taken in time of purchase. See Associate for details. Rewards program subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change this message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com iheart you think.
- [02:06]
D
You know snap judgment. Yes, it's on NPR. It's podcasts. It's storytelling. But SNAP has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up for.
- [02:19]
A
Welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame.
- [02:21]
D
Glenn Washington Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes to drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap Touch from KQED every Thursday Wherever you get your podcast.
- [02:44]
E
What do you remember about the 2016 film Jackie?
- [02:48]
F
I just remember Natalie Portman being incredible. You know, I guess I remembered all the conversation, being around, like, how many shooters there were, whatever, but, like, the portrayal of the actual moments afterward. I had never really been, I don't know, privy to or read up on or whatever, but, like, you know, just him being rushed to this hospital and Jackie being, you know, kind of trying to figure out how to stay in the conversation and do you know what I mean? Like, make sure that she wasn't being pushed out of her husband's, like, last moments.
- [03:36]
C
I'm George Severis. I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today in our second Kennedy movie episode, our we're talking about Pablo Lorraine's 2016 film Jackie, starring Natalie Portman as Jackie Kennedy in the moments before, during, and after her husband's assassination.
- [04:02]
E
Originally conceived as a much more expansive HBO miniseries spanning the four days between JFK's assassination and funeral, and was ultimately rewritten as a feature film focused on just Jackie's experience of that time.
- [04:17]
C
So it's framed around an interview Jackie does with an unnamed journalist in Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, and the story is in a series of dreamlike flashbacks, and the interview itself is loosely based on Theodore H. White's extensive interview with Jackie in Life magazine in November 1963.
- [04:35]
E
While doing press for the film, Natalie Portman talked a lot about her in depth research into Jackie's life, as well as her work with a vocal coach to get Jackie's accent and voice just right.
- [04:47]
C
Unfortunately, the same can't be said of Peter Sarsgaard, who plays Bobby Kennedy in the movie, but more on that later. Portman was nominated for an Oscar for the role, eventually losing to Emma Stone for La La Land, which did not sit quite right with our guest today.
- [05:01]
E
That's right. Our guest, Hunter Harris, was a staff writer at Vulture at the time, and she wrote multiple appreciations of Jackie for the website.
- [05:10]
C
Hunter now writes the wildly popular substack newsletter Hung up and co hosts the podcast. Let me say this, Hunter, welcome to United States of Kennedy.
- [05:19]
A
Thank you.
- [05:20]
C
We should say the reason you are here is because I posted about the podcast when it was announced, and I said, I'm so excited to be hosting a podcast about the Kennedys. And then you responded, you better do an episode about Jackie. Parentheses 2016. Pablo Lorraine's interfilm And so I know that there's a lot of lore with you in this movie. You've written about it a bunch of times. I actually wanted to come out and be like, you've written about it four times. But then the Google results kept coming and I actually wasn't sure how many times. Including the newsletter you have written about, you have a lot of opinions about it that have become, I would say, almost like recurring bits. So I want to just know what is your relationship with this movie?
- [06:01]
A
I saw it in a movie theater, Humble Beginnings, and it just blew me away. It truly, I was like, this is one of the most fabulous movies I've seen this year. And if you remember 2016, that was like the moonlight year, the La La land year, the 20th century women year. There were so many good movies that year. And I think probably a big part of why I feel so much affection for this movie is that it felt like no one was talking about it. And truly, it just. Yeah. Even rewatching it to talk about it today, I was like, wow, that Natalie Portman, good actress.
- [06:32]
C
It is. There is this recurring thing with Natalie Portman, I feel, where she is always giving a really interesting out of the box performance during a year when she has no chance. It's like Annihilation, Vox Lux. Like there's just all these movies where you're like, well, you know, maybe in a different year this could be a front runner, but it's not gonna right.
- [06:50]
A
Maybe part of winning an Oscar. So when you're pretty young. Although she was like a child actress, so she just has been, I think, culturally, I don't know, she kind of feels like such a squarely millennial actress in which there's like an Natalie Portman movie that coincides with every part of my adolescence. Early 20s now, early 30s. I can almost graft my own coming of age onto like Natalie Portman performance or movie. Whether it be like the manic Pixie Dream girl stuff or the Black Swan, you know, more serious actress y stuff. Or like the. When she made the Jake Gyllenhaal, Tobey Maguire, Mov Brothers.
- [07:22]
E
Yes.
- [07:23]
A
And it's like, what the fuck was that era? And then all the way now to Jackie where I'm like, oh my gosh. Really devastating that that performance did not get more attention.
- [07:31]
E
Well, it's really funny also when you realize that it's Natalie Portman and Peter Sarsgaard and they were in Garden State together, which is to me, like the millennial foundational. I don't know how I should feel about it now, honestly, because when I tried to rewatch it as an adult, it had lost all the magic for me. But I'm mad at myself for saying that, because as a teenager, I was so in love with it. It became part of who I was because I was just so blown away by it. And then it's so funny to see them now being Jackie and Bobby.
- [08:04]
C
Yeah, it really is sort of the reality bites of our generation in many ways, in both good and bad ways. I do want to get to Peter Starsgrd because I know you have strong opinions about him as well. But before we do, what was your relationship to Jackie, the person before this movie? Are you someone who cares about the Kennedys? Do you care about Jackie as, like, a fashion icon? As, like, a, you know, wronged woman in American history?
- [08:29]
A
No, not really. Wish it were different.
- [08:31]
C
Yeah.
- [08:32]
A
I really had not thought very critically about Jackie Onassis or the Kennedy family in any really rigorous way before seeing this movie. And then it. I mean, not to say that it, like, taught me something, but it did make me think it's just such a. I think Jackie, as a movie, so perceptive about, like, grief, obviously media and image making and, like, myth making. I just loved the idea that, like, in every frame of this movie, Natalie Portman is, like, screaming, crying as, like, blood on her body, and is like, wait, can you guys, like, give me a little bit of attention, please? Sorry, my husband just died. Does no one else feel any of that? And that is kind of like how grief feels where, like, it is the center of your life and you think it should be the center of everyone else's life. And at every opportunity, someone's like, but my husband didn't die, so I cannot share this moment with you. And it is just being confronted with that again and again. That sense of pure devastation and also rage. I thought this was such a good movie for that.
- [09:28]
E
I mean, that moment when they're swearing Johnson in and it's like everyone is holding back their smiles.
- [09:36]
A
Yeah.
- [09:36]
E
And you can understand that they're not, you know, giving every single person the benefit of the doubt. I mean, our last movie was jfk, which definitely would have pointed fingers at a lot of those people. But how could Lady Bird not be a bit proud that now her husband is president? No matter how horrible the circumstances, it still is, like, a monumental moment for them. And that is one thing that I saw as a technical inaccuracy that gets cited a lot about this movie is that the interpretation is that her relationship with the Johnsons is really strained and negative or adversarial, even, like, in this movie. But I watched it three times.
- [10:22]
C
Lyra watched it three times in the last 24 hours.
- [10:25]
A
Oh, my gosh. Wait, is that, like, you. In a good way, you watched it three times, or like, I watched it three times.
- [10:30]
E
I watched it three times in a good way. And I would argue that those moments are not about their interpersonal relationships. It's about what you were just saying. Like, it's about her experiencing extreme grief and being alone in it.
- [10:47]
A
Yeah. No, I mean, and that's a really. I'm glad you brought up that scene, because I do like the way that it kind of introduces this level of seething disgust at everything that's happening on that scene. Like, as she's watching, there's, like, a moment where she watches Someone address LBJ as Mr. President. And it's. I don't know, but I just got the sense upon rewatching it this time that, like, it's like someone's, like, calling another man by her husband's name. It's like, it's really upsetting to her. Like, how dare you pass this along so quickly? Like, that's my husband's title. And again, in that scene, too, it's like she's almost just, like, dead weight in the room. And the way that everyone seems to kind of, like, walk around her or avoid her. And obviously she's. I mean, it's like, I can't imagine how traumatic. It's like living through a nightmare, truly. She's, like, battling on about, like, we need the bagpipes. We need, like, the flutes. We need all this stuff. And no one really knows how to handle her. And there's this weird, you know, when a straight man sees a woman with any emotionality is just like, oh, my gosh, like, someone handle her, please. And I like that Jackie and Ally Portman, like, both. I'm guessing Jackie in real life, not Allie Portman in this movie, are both really defiant and, like, no, we are all going to be uncomfortable right now, actually. It's like, almost kind of Housewivesian in the insistence to be the center of attention. And I think rightly so.
- [12:06]
C
She is sort of like, at the same time, the most important person in the room and the least important person in the room. And I think so much of the drama comes out of that tension because on the one hand, she is, of course, the widow and literally died in her lap. So obviously, she is the one whose opinion matters most. She's the one planning the Funeral, whatever. But then on the other hand, you get the sense that there are all these people that are, in the political context more important than her. And she's like a thorn in their side that they just have to appease in order to get through the day and keep things moving.
- [12:37]
A
Yeah, as if she's like some type of formality. There's also a line when one of the handlers is like, well, we need to like take his body to the autopsy. And she's like, well, says who? Who? Why do we do that? And it's like, well, the law. And she's like, well, tell me everything. Like that little moment. And I think later in the movie she has a line about how, like, I should have been a shopkeeper. I should have married like a fat, lazy, ugly man. All of this stuff. And I think, George, to your point, like being formerly the most important woman in the room to like being the kind of freak show that everyone is. Like, avoiding that instant loss of power is like another level of the grief and the loss that's at play here. And I think the movie keeps that, like that power dynamic at the center in a really deft way.
- [13:25]
B
This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibay's Pet Friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [14:24]
F
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and Every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results, and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.
- [14:58]
D
I'm Glenn Washington, the host of KQED's Snap Judgment podcast. And in Snap, we don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week, a different journey, like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from kqed. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [15:27]
A
Wasn't that delicious? So good.
- [15:29]
C
Your bill, ladies.
- [15:31]
A
I got it.
- [15:31]
E
You got it.
- [15:32]
A
No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.
- [15:35]
E
I insisted first. Don't be silly.
- [15:37]
A
You don't be silly.
- [15:39]
C
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- [15:45]
A
Okay.
- [15:46]
B
Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.
- [15:48]
E
Shoot.
- [15:49]
C
No, the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.
- [16:04]
E
And at court, according to the, you know, biography, the Jackie Public Private Secret. That's very accurate. She spoke to her family about feeling the loss of power, that it wasn't something that she had sought for most of her life, but then once she had it, she really enjoyed it and really wanted to do something with it. And then in an instant, is no longer. Well, yeah.
- [16:30]
C
And it's also. It's unclear where that power that she had acquired gradually over the years. It's unclear where that stands. And you get some peeks into her psyche in regards to that as well when she's talking about how, like, other presidential widows ended up immediately losing everything or having to, like, sell furniture in order to make it work. And there's also a way in which this movie, honestly, part of why I resisted it for so long was because it's sold as this, like, universal story of grief. And honestly, a lot of the reviews talk about how it is, you know, at its core, about grief. And I'm just like, I mean, yes and no. This is such a particular thing that can only happen to such a particular person that I can't imagine, like, relating to this. And then when I finally saw it, I was like, oh, I see. I think what it's doing is that it's operating at such a, like, operatic level.
- [17:20]
A
Yeah.
- [17:20]
C
Which is, in fact, just how grief feels to you.
- [17:24]
A
Yeah.
- [17:24]
C
When you are losing someone. Like.
- [17:26]
A
Yeah, you.
- [17:26]
C
Because it is when you lose the person that is the most Important to you. You might as well be the first lady with blood on her dress on television, because it feels like everything is being destroyed around you.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah, no, entirely. I think that level of, like, there's so much stakes attached to, like, he's the president, and this is, like, the first modern assassination. And, you know, what do we do about the children? And, I mean, when she tells Kennedy's mom, well, a president cannot be buried in Brookline. Let's be serious, please. All of that stuff feels at once so heightened and, like, almost unrealistic. And yet, in the wake of losing someone, I feel like you keep trying to prove this is devastating. Why don't you understand how devastating this is? And that's like, kind of the argument that she's making again and again and again. And I also like how there is a lot of uncertainty to her, how she goes about it really seem. I think the movie does a really good job of showing that, like, it wasn't some grandmaster scheme. She is kind of drunk, putting on her dresses, walking around her home like she's a ghost already, because they're basically making her move out and plan a funeral and do all these things at once, and she's kind of making it up. Like, how can I keep their attention on my husband and establish his legacy? Which is really a way of, like, making a case for herself as, like, we were important and I was important, and I'm kind of alone on this team. And I think I like the way that, like, Bobby Kennedy is both an accomplice in that effort, and then also she feels betrayed by him, obviously, making it the legacy, the priority, and not so much like, her kids, herself. And that kind of, like, back and forth again, just shows, like, how imperfect it is to really build a myth and how it wasn't foretold that they would become what they became.
- [19:06]
C
And so much of the flashbacks to her giving the tour of the White House are so much about her participating in this narrative building about America's history. These are all objects that are important because they show us the gravity of the White House and the gravity of American history and all this stuff. And you see her after the assassination, almost doing that in real time with her own husband. She's trying to build the mix and build the narrative. And there's almost this race between the myth making and the actual reality of what's happening. She's rushing to build the myth that shows that she and her husband were important before they run out of time and are no longer in the history books.
- [19:42]
E
I mean, That's. Yeah, that's the line that JFK says when he enters at the end of the tour. Something along the lines of, like, I think it's really important what she's doing here because it shows us that real men lived here. And it's like a real man lived here is, I feel like, was my takeaway even from watching Jackie this time, because it's like, we've done a lot of reading on the Kennedys and on this specific time, and, you know, honestly, at a certain point, it's like they just become names on a piece of paper because it's hard to, like, consistently remember the humanity when they're, like, larger than life figures and they're just icons. And that's, like, something we talk about here. But this movie was so human. She was such a human. It was like the exact opposite of the icon. It was like seeing all of the underneath background of the reality that makes an icon. I was pretty wiped out by it, emotionally. I cried.
- [20:40]
A
I love when people love it. I really do. There are so many things about it that, you know, I think biopics in general are, like, very hard and also pretty controversial. Either you really like a biopic, or you just hate all biopics, which I understand. But I think focusing in on these three specific moments, the assassination, the immediate aftermath, and then also, like, the White House tour, feels very like. Not to say that that's the most interesting part of one person's entire experience, but that it's like a uniquely charged moment in which it's very revealing about her, about the way power works in D.C. and also about the family at large in an interesting way. And also I like how. I mean, just practically, there are so many little moments about humanity where she is walking across Arlington National Cemetery and it's raining, and, like, her foot. Her heels keep getting stuck in the mud. And it's like those things are just so like. Or when she's, like, looking out of the window, she's looking at the crowd and they're looking at her, and it just feels like at once so lonely and so isolated, and yet it's like. But you're surrounded by people who want to share. I think she has that line, like, the priest told me they wanted to share my grief, so I let them. And that feels at once so intimate and also, like, completely impossible. Mm.
- [21:53]
C
Yeah. The smallness of it. I mean, obviously, it's a very grand movie. It's obviously about a very major event in American history, but the smallness of it and the fact that it focuses on all these individual events and the fact that most scenes are either just her or her and one other person.
- [22:08]
A
Yeah.
- [22:08]
C
And when there's a crowd, it's more like symbolic of the idea of a crowd. It's almost like less about any of the real specifics and more about what they symbolize. Like, I kept thinking, now that I have all this knowledge about the Kennedys, I would have a different outlook on this movie. And I didn't. Like, the priest symbolizes religion. The journalist symbolizes the media. The Bobby symbolizes the family, expectations and whatever. Like, there is certain things symbolize, like the mythology of America. You basically can project anything onto it. Like, it's kind of beside the point that she even is playing Jackie Kennedy.
- [22:41]
E
Yeah.
- [22:42]
A
No, and I think that is kind of part of it for me, that Natalie Portman, who. I mean, at least when I first heard about this movie, like, an unusual choice. They don't look very much alike. Not that I really. I don't know how tall or petite Jackie Kennedy actually was, but it's like.
- [22:56]
E
She'S 575 4, 5 3.
- [22:59]
A
Yeah.
- [23:00]
E
Like, I looked it up because I was thinking about it the whole time.
- [23:03]
A
No, that's funny, because I do. It's like, I'm curious talking about this with you both because you're such experts in this topic, but it gets at such an emotional, raw truth that, like, kind of the politics, like, the specifics of a moment feel less important than the fact that, like, I mean, what would you do if your husband's head had just been shot and fallen into your lap? There's no other way. It's magnificent that she was able to get on the plane after that. But I feel like the Natalie Portman of it all both makes it feel not exactly history and maybe lets the facade drop a little bit less where it's like, this is a movie about a woman whose husband just died and not a movie about the capital K Kennedys.
- [23:46]
E
Well, the thing is, the development of this is that originally it was gonna be a miniseries on HBO about the four days following the assassination. And then it changed into it being a movie that was gonna be directed by Darren Aronofsky, starring Rachel Weisz. And then when they got divorced, they said goodbye to the project. And then once Natalie Portman signed on, which took, like, years like this, you know, this is over the course of, like, many years, Pablo Lorraine went to the screenwriter, Noah Oppenheim, and said, cut any scene that Jackie's not in. And so they took 20 pages out of the 120 page script. And I. It's amazing to me, like, how much stronger that made the movie because of this, because of all, like the intensity of it, of it being so focused on her. It's like that, the Amy Winehouse documentary where every shot is just her and then, you know, narration from the interviews and stuff.
- [24:50]
C
It's funny that it was. It almost came about by accident or by a series of sort of random events because then it kind of ushered in this era of Pablo Lorraine movies that are all different versions of this because, you know, this was the first of the three that are like, Jackie Spencer, Maria Hunter. What is your relationship with Pablo Lorraine more broadly?
- [25:12]
A
Saw Spencer did not see Maria. You know, I did not really care for Spencer. It almost felt like the exact same movie, but just in a less intense, like a watered down version of the same movie, basically. Because, like the sense of opulence and isolation and extreme inner turmoil just did not connect. Maybe because the moment itself did not feel as charged as, like, if you're looking at Jackie Candy, there's one very specific moment to talk about the assassination. But with, with Diana, it felt like, I don't know, maybe because she. It feels like more recent history. There's so much more to talk about. Like, maybe it could have been that scene, but it also could have been this day. I just never. And I'm also not really like a royalist, so maybe that's why I didn't connect. I just don't think that's as good of a movie, honestly. And I wondered too how much, because I think Dan Aronofsky was the EP of Jackie, but not of the others. And I wonder how much like, that plays a part. Also, maybe the script feels a lot different.
- [26:05]
E
Also, Spielberg was also a producer on Jackie. Oh, well, it shows. I believe it was him who wanted Pablo Lorraine. And Pablo Lorraine said, I've never made a movie with a female protagonist. I don't think I can do it. And then it completely changed his career.
- [26:20]
F
Wow.
- [26:21]
C
Now he's simply addicted to women.
- [26:23]
A
No, I know, I was gonna say the irony of him like making like literally three women, 1, 2, 3, and not fanning women interesting enough before. That is pretty funny. But I also.
- [26:33]
E
I don't know if he was like, yeah, I think he was up. I think it was more that he was just like, I don't know how to do that. But that's hilarious.
- [26:40]
A
Like, it's funny to imagine him being like one of the men in the room with Natalie Portman, like all the. All the men who are truly afraid of her and afraid of her, like, you know, how emotional she is and how frightening her. Like, I don't know, just unpredictability is. Is very ironic.
- [26:56]
E
Yeah. I love that when she says to the interviewer, are you afraid I'm gonna cry?
- [26:59]
C
I wonder. One of the framing devices of this movie is that it does the classic thing where you start with an interview with a journalist and then there are flashbacks, which, you know, is sort of a cliche at this point. What did you think of that as a framing device? And how did you process that as literally a journalist yourself who profiles famous.
- [27:19]
A
People as a framing device? It feels like the most kind of conventional part of the movie. Only because Billy Crudup, playing not a specific reporter. But, like, that story, I think did happen in some magazine. It's like he's strangely just like an everyman writer in a way that feels like, for me, that is otherwise so specific. It feels extremely kind of casual. I guess my instinct is to be like, okay, well, she says she doesn't smoke. Well, guess who gets to decide what goes in the final story?
- [27:48]
E
I know.
- [27:48]
C
I was thinking that, too. I think the implication is that there's some conversation that she would only agree to this with certain terms.
- [27:54]
E
And, yeah, I think the true story is that she called him to collaborate on an article. And a lot that I think is not said in Jackie because of probably those 20 pages that were cut. It makes it so that there are no introductions to people. And that in itself is kind of hazy, making, like, out of sorts. Like, people just come in and out and you're like, wait, I think I know who that is. But they don't even say their names sometimes.
- [28:25]
A
But again, I like that. I like how it feels like a memory in the sense, like you don't know exactly what someone said or who they were. But there's, like. You remember being told this thing and feeling like, the rage or sadness about that. I think that is to the movie's benefit. And maybe that's why the reporter part of it feels like the most prescriptive, I guess, and how you're supposed to, like, read her and read the situation, which makes it the weakest in my mind. But I do like that they have this not exactly warm relationship. It's a little bit testy sometimes, which I think does confirm a casual viewer's bias against this woman who seems kind of Machiavellian and like, her either pursuit of power or like her narrative of it.
- [29:10]
E
But you mentioned the cigarettes and man does she make every single one of those cigarettes look really good? Oh, I like, this is like, as I was watching, I was like, this might be like top five movies to smoke too, and I don't smoke. But like, it's like she makes them all look, look so good. And it's like, because it is kind of her. It's her secret.
- [29:32]
C
I mean, it does symbolize her smoking. And then saying, by the way, I don't smoke is like, of course, ultimately like, emblematic of her relationship to the truth and to her own image making it's interesting. Like, I totally agree that it is a conventional framing device, but then I think at its best, what it does is sort of establish that we can't really trust anything else we're seeing because everything exists in this sort of like liminal space between fact and memory.
- [30:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's definitely true.
- [30:14]
B
This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibase Pet Friendly, stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic, high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [31:14]
F
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh w. Wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.
- [31:49]
D
I'm Glynne Washington, the host of KQD's Snap Judgment podcast. And at Snap, we don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week, a different journey, like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an open homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from kqed. New episode every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:19]
E
Wasn't that delicious?
- [32:20]
A
So good.
- [32:21]
C
Your bill, ladies.
- [32:22]
A
I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.
- [32:26]
E
I insisted first. Oh, don't be silly.
- [32:29]
A
You'll not be silly.
- [32:30]
C
People with the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases.
- [32:36]
A
Okay.
- [32:37]
B
Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.
- [32:40]
A
Sh.
- [32:40]
C
No, the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply. Okay, so I want to get into slightly more fun stuff. Lyra, did you have any other questions about the meat of the movie?
- [33:05]
E
Oh, well, I guess. I guess it's more of an observation, but also just that it's wild to me that Lee, her sister, and Onassis, her future husband, who were there this entire time, they're in every one of those rooms in real life, are not in real life in this movie at all. They're not even characters in the movie.
- [33:25]
C
I know there's so much stuff like that that just is ignored now that we know kind of what happened. And I really do think that just isn't what he's interested in. Like, I really think, you know, it's almost like putting on a play, like the Nicole Scherzinger Sunset Boulevard, where it's just her on stage, barefoot. Like, he's just doing as little as possible to just convey the general themes he wants to convey. Like, there really is very little interest in historical accuracy and everything. And I also. I've always been interested in him as a non American, making a movie about such an iconic American moment in history.
- [34:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, it kind of. Cause I feel like the procession. Do they shoot that all, like, in Paris or something or. I don't think it was shot in the US which kind of reminds me of, like, Eyes Wide Shut, which feels like such an iconic New York movie that's obviously shot in London. And how you can get, like, some kind of almost a reactive truth about all these places when there could not be further from the reality of, like, D.C. or New York City in a way that I like that it feels, like, kind of hazy. And also, a lot of those shots are so tight and static, especially in the first act. It's only when you get into the White House it's like only her alone in the center of a frame that is a lot wider and bigger. And so, yeah, I think George, to your point, it's like there's so much happening outside of this that he is just not curious about at all, which I think is, like, the right choice. But we do have a sense of, like, there are other things. There are other people milling about. Like, in the LBJ stuff, there's all this, like, kind of Bobby comes in with reporting back. Like, they want you out of here at this day. They want this changed. And again, it really keeps the pressure on her because it makes her feel more alone because she really is the only character, which is probably why, honestly, I feel like Peter Sarsgaard is just not a very. If he were not in the movie so much, his complete failure would not bother me so much. But because he is, I just, like. I see it, notice it all the time.
- [35:19]
C
Yeah. This is gonna be my next question. I think you mentioned this in both of the New York Mag piece you wrote about the film, that that is the weakest part of it. First of all, I agree. And I think at first glance, one of the things that week about it, even before he opens his mouth, is just, like. It's such weird casting. Physically, he looks nothing like Bobby. Bobby does have, like, a particular, you know, face shape and vibe and even just hair. I mean.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah.
- [35:43]
C
Which it's interesting, actually. The actor who plays JFK is very well cast.
- [35:47]
A
Yes.
- [35:48]
E
Basically won a lookalike contest.
- [35:50]
C
Yeah.
- [35:50]
A
I. And I think we can suspend or disbelieve that, like, Natalie Portman is Jackie Kennedy. When it's Jackie Kennedy, but when you have a almost mirror image of JFK and he's in the movie a fair amount. Not a lot, but a fair amount. And then you have Peter Sutter as Bobby Kennedy. It's like, wait.
- [36:05]
C
Huh?
- [36:06]
E
Even in the procession, Teddy Kennedy is. I don't know if you noticed.
- [36:09]
A
Yeah, no.
- [36:10]
E
It's like they got clones for everyone else. So why is he just wearing those teeth and that's it? And what even are those teeth?
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, and, like, the accent. I mean, the accent, you know, really comes and goes, but that's okay. I don't want to nitpick about accents, but in, like, the best version of this, what is he supposed to, like, you know, communicate here to us? And it's not even really a sense of, like. I don't. He's just. He's so, like, shoulders down, hunched over, like, so sad all the time in a way that I'M like, okay, well, Natalie Portman is acting her ass off, and you can't just loom. Lurk around the back of these scenes and act like that's a performance.
- [36:50]
C
I mean, I do think, think the most compelling argument for it that I can think of, which you sort of allude to. One of the things you wrote about it is, like, that she symbolizes, you know, for lack of a better term, like a female gendered kind of grief. And then he symbolizes a male gendered kind of grief. It's like, you know, she's emoting and she's acting and she's like, crying. And then he comes and is just, like, either completely emotionless or, like, throwing things around and being. And being rageful. And there's something just like, like, inherently unappealing about him as a screen presence in this particular movie. I actually think he's a great actor in other things.
- [37:27]
A
Yeah, no, I've never had a problem with him. But what a shame about Bobby, though.
- [37:30]
E
Like, and I will nitpick the accent because Natalie Portman's voice work is, like, insane. She has three different voices for Jackie, depending on where she is and who she's talking to. I loved it. I would rather someone try too hard at emulating a famous voice than to undersell it. Whatever he accomplished, it's really the only time he gives us any kind of accent. I would have liked more of that. I will say, though, I read that I think Pablo Reign said 30% of the movie is first takes, really, which really just shows you how incredible Natalie Portman is. And maybe Peter would have warmed up in a second or third take.
- [38:17]
A
Lyra, I just learned so much about you. Like, did you love Lady Gaga in House of Gucci? Like, do you love a big accent? Okay, I didn't see it.
- [38:25]
E
And you know what? Actually, because of the accent, because I was like, I was so confused by it in the trailer, and I asked my friend who is Italian, I was like, is this offensive? Like, it doesn't feel like it's coming from an earnest place. It feels like it's coming from, like, this, I don't know, campy place.
- [38:45]
A
But.
- [38:46]
C
Well, I mean, if the shoe fits. When that movie came out, I had a period when I would do a perfect impression of Lady Gaga in that movie. But now it's been too long, and I literally cannot attempt it. It's a very specific, almost Russian tinge. Who does what. It's a very, like, it really is something that only Stephanie could have pulled off. And I would actually Say, I want to see Lady Gaga as Jackie when they remake this.
- [39:11]
E
Incredible.
- [39:12]
C
Which public figure would Lady Gaga play if Pablo Lorraine made another movie about how women struggle?
- [39:20]
E
Madame.
- [39:20]
A
Sorry.
- [39:20]
E
Hillary.
- [39:21]
C
Hillary.
- [39:22]
A
Hillary.
- [39:23]
C
I actually think Lady Gaga as Hillary. The night of the 2016 election, when she's at the Javits center, the balloons are all getting ready to be dropped and they have to pop them one by one, and then it's just Lady Gaga dressed as Joe Calderon in a pantsuit.
- [39:37]
E
Honestly, you should write that as a short and have John early play Hillary Clinton.
- [39:42]
C
Oh, John Early. That would be as Hillary Clinton.
- [39:45]
A
No, I think that either Gaga is Hillary Clinton or Hilaria Baldwin.
- [39:50]
C
Ooh, Gaga is Laura Baldwin.
- [39:51]
A
Would be great. Could be inspired.
- [39:53]
C
Yeah.
- [39:53]
A
Okay, so my favorite thing. Actually, two favorite things about this movie that are not the movie. The first is that Natalie Portman, before every take, would just whisper to herself, I love beauty, like, in her soft voice because Jackie was such an aesthete. Aesthet. How do you say that word?
- [40:11]
C
Aesthete.
- [40:12]
A
Yeah. Okay, that's what I thought. But, you know, we're in a culture where people say, like, that's so aesthetic. And I don't. That's not what I meant. My second favorite thing is that in Ronan Farrow's book Catch and Kill. Do you know where I'm going with this?
- [40:24]
C
Yes, I do. The writer.
- [40:25]
E
Go there.
- [40:27]
C
Go ahead. Go ahead, Hunter.
- [40:28]
A
In Ronan Farrow's book Catch and Kill, he talks about Noah Oppenheim, who was a screenwriter of Jackie, who at the time was president of NBC News. And I. Details are kind of fuzzy, but basically his Lyinstein reporting. Ronan Farrow was like, going to run an NBC. And then Oppenheim kind of was like, you know, a little bit giving him notes, pushing back on some stuff. Like he was saying that the story wasn't ready yet. And then Ronan Farrow took it to the New Yorker, of course. And it's like at every opportunity, Ronan Farrow just, like, finds a moment to, like, quote someone else saying that Jackie was not a good movie. And I swear to God, like, a paragraph, it may be even a chapter, but there's like a page that ends with David Remnick saying, that was not a good movie about.
- [41:13]
E
It's like, what?
- [41:16]
A
It's so like him going out of his way to be like. And actually, I hate that guy's movie, too. Is so. And listen, I get it.
- [41:24]
E
It's interesting because he wrote Maze Runner script, and he wrote the Allegiance script, the Sealed and Divergent.
- [41:31]
C
The Divergent that's what throws me off.
- [41:33]
E
And then he wrote Jackie. It's like, what? How did that.
- [41:38]
A
I found the quote and I have to read it. This is Ronan Farrow's book. He says, and NBC is letting you walk away with all this reporting. Remnick asked, who was this person at NBC? Oppenheim. Oppenheim. I confirmed he's a screenwriter. You say he wrote Jackie. I replied that Rybnik said Gravely was a bad movie.
- [41:59]
C
It's interesting, I mean, to connect Jackie to larger political stories like Ronan affairs reporting and the fact that this guy randomly worked at NBC News. I expected it. And actually one of the reasons I resisted it was I expected it to be much more, like, propagandistic or something.
- [42:14]
A
Like, I really.
- [42:15]
C
Because so much stuff. And we run into this a lot. So much stuff about JFK is just so propagandistic because for that time, he was, you know, in the same way that Obama symbolized hope when he became president, JFK was going to be like a new leaf, and it was going to be this emblem of American progressive politics. And he was gone too soon. And he was going to. I mean, literally, in jfk, the Oliver Stone movie, which we watched the other week, the argument that they're making is that he literally was so progressive that he was going to withdraw from the Vietnam War, and that's why the government conspired to kill him, because they were so afraid of how amazingly liberal and progressive he would be. So I really thought that this would be just like more of that. And especially knowing that I don't know this guy that didn't want to publish the Weinstein report. It wrote it. It's like, I would expect it to be so much more like, can you believe that we lost the one true hope we had for in the 20th century? So I gotta say, I have to really separate the art from the artist in this one instance and say, regardless of what this guy did in the rest of his professional life, he absolutely ate with this one.
- [43:18]
A
First of all, it doesn't feel like it was written by a man and doesn't feel like it was written by a suit, like an executive at a media company. No, I'm expecting to be lectured to. I'm expecting Aaron Sorkin to walk into a room and read me the monologue from the newsroom. And this could not be further from that.
- [43:32]
C
And by the way, a lot of Pablo Lorraine's previous films, which I haven't seen in, like, decades, but are much more explicitly political. And I mean, I'm Trying to think there was that Garcia. No, yeah, that with. Was that gal Garcia Brunel. Of course, when I Google it, I get the Meghan Trainor song. I think he can be more political. He can be more political when he wants. And the other thing is, there's something about this trilogy of movies that just screams gay guy to me and is not. He's a straight man that made three movies in a row about basically divas.
- [44:04]
E
I did also, I assumed he was gay.
- [44:06]
A
Whenever a man has any ounce of emotional intelligence or sensitivity, I will assume that.
- [44:11]
C
Yeah. No, he is, in fact divorced from a woman named Antonia.
- [44:14]
A
And I want her movie. I want Antonia.
- [44:17]
C
Maybe that should be Gaga's. That should be Gaga's big role.
- [44:19]
E
It seems like in this instance, the director did a lot of the forming of this movie as opposed to, oh, yes, Oppenheim wrote the script for a different medium. It got moved and moved and moved, and then it got, you know, I can't do the math. It's less than 20%, but more than 15% of the script getting cut before the shoot. It just seems like it was saved by Pablo Lorraine.
- [44:50]
C
I'm assuming it was actually saved by Natalie Portman.
- [44:53]
E
That's true.
- [44:55]
A
As many things are. Truly.
- [44:58]
E
I love your comparison of Jackie to Kris Jenner when you, you know. Because honestly, I want a Kris Jenner movie now.
- [45:05]
C
That's a good Gaga. Sorry, I'm running this bit. That would be a great role for Gaga to play.
- [45:09]
E
I love when Benito Skinner plays Kris Jenner as the devil, you know, and it's like, like, yeah. Also, she's often right. Like, you know, it's like, if the. The way that we look at complicated male figures, I think that she's. To me, I find a very complicated figure. And a lot of this is stemming from watching the O.J. simpson American Crime Story and Selma Blair's portrayal of Kris Jenner. Oh, my gosh, like, changed the way I saw her for the rest of my life. Where I, like, like, initially kind of had no opinion, but I was just like, that's really shitty that you exploited your children. But then in the American Crime Story, it was like the first time I realized that her best friend was murdered. And then all of their best friends kind of shrugged their shoulders about it. And it's like, similar to what we've been talking about with Jackie when they turn off the TV after seeing Oswald get shot. And they all have so many other things on their mind. And this is a moment where we're supposed to be having the Families wake, but she's alone in it.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah.
- [46:17]
C
I mean, the scene where they, like, agree not to tell her that Oswald has been shot is maybe of all the things that the various men do, probably the most sexist. Like, it's literally like, she is a woman. She can't handle the truth.
- [46:31]
E
I do have to say, that is not how it happened. She and Bobby were together in the autopsy room when Oswald was shot. They found out together at the same time afterwards. So that thing of Bobby lying to her and doing that's also just a weird choice, I guess, but it gives her the ability to yell at him finally, in that moment, like, she gets a great moment of, like.
- [46:53]
A
Yeah, well, of that scene. I mean, it's funny that you bring up Kristen now, because the point of that scene, to me, is that she can see how she's being manipulated by both sides. It's not just that, like, you know, the government is evil, the LBJ people are evil. And it's not that the Kennedys are great. It's that she is truly alone and in the middle and has. There's no, like, rubric to handle this. And I feel like maybe she says, you know, a few times, like, a president has just died, like, and everyone's acting like we need to push her aside and move along. And she continues to say, there's nothing. I don't know what to do. I'm just making up as I go along. And I like that as a piece that doesn't feel so Christian. Or to me, where she at least, like, in that one timeline, we really see her making it up. Just as we saw the kind of the reality sense of, like, insecurity and anxiety as she's doing the White House broadcast in, like, okay, well, everyone thinks I wasted their money. Everyone thinks I'm a dumb debutante. Everyone thinks that we are here for all the wrong reasons. But I want to show the value in presenting something and, like, telling it. Making this into, like, a narrative, making this into a story and giving people something to be proud of, which is, yeah, a little bit more astute, like, management narrative. Everything is pretty good. But. But, yeah, I. Oh, my gosh, I'm so happy. I love talking about this movie. I'm so happy when people love it. I, like, I feel like a proud mamacita. Yeah.
- [48:12]
E
I mean, well, the, like, real thought about Christian or that. I don't know why I left it off was that just in that moment, I feel like if you want to look at her with the kindest possible eyes that's the moment where she realized that if you're a woman, if you don't have money and power, you have nothing. They can just kill you and forget about you. Like, you know, like it doesn't matter what your relationship was with them beforehand. And I feel like we're doing a Kris Jenner movie. That's when she decides to prioritize money for her daughters.
- [48:55]
B
This Labor Day. Say goodbye to spill stains and overpriced furniture with washable sofas.com featuring Anabe the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions. Restrictions may apply.
- [49:55]
F
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.
- [50:30]
D
I'm Glen Washington, the host of KQD's Snap Judgment podcast. And at Snap, we don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week a different journey. Like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from kqed. New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:00]
E
Wasn't that delicious?
- [51:01]
A
So good.
- [51:02]
C
Your bill, ladies.
- [51:03]
E
I got it.
- [51:04]
A
No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.
- [51:08]
E
I insisted first. Don't be silly.
- [51:10]
A
You know me, silly people with the.
- [51:12]
C
Will Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases.
- [51:18]
A
Okay.
- [51:18]
B
Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.
- [51:21]
E
Shoot.
- [51:21]
C
No, the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply. Okay, so Lyra, your Pablo Lorraine movie is Kris Jenner. Hunter's is, of course, Hillary Clinton her favorite politician. And mine, I would say. I mean, this is such an obvious one, but. And this would have to be in 20 years. But I'm like, I want a Courtney Love. Like an actual Courtney Love, sort of Pablo Raine style biopic that's, like, about a specific part of her life. Maybe it's right after she has Francis Bean. Maybe it's right after Kurt Cobain dies. And I wanted to actually grapple with her incredible complexity as one of the great artists of our time.
- [52:10]
E
But we can't get Noel Oppenheim to write it because he loves Weinstein too much. Oh, my God. And Courtney Love made the Weinstein joke on the red carpet.
- [52:18]
A
I do think that Jackie reminds me a lot of Last Days, the Gus Van Sant movie about Kurt Cobain. Like, it's similarly. It feels not tethered to any specific cultural conversation and more of a memory and a tone more than like a specific, I don't know, thesis in a way that I think is really interesting.
- [52:40]
C
Yeah. So much of the Kennedy narrative is created in the media and you have these decontextualized images that you think of when you think of the Kennedys, whether it's the debate with Nixon, whether it's the assassination, whatever. And it almost replicates that feeling of being bombarded with images by not following a coherent, you know, A to B to C narrative and just having this dreamscape of scenes and people going in and out of rooms and not really knowing if that this is something you imagined or if it actually happened. And I actually think the quote, unquote, factual inaccuracies almost add to that feeling. Cause it's kind of like someone's imagination of what could have happened at that time.
- [53:15]
E
Well, because honestly, the only other one, only other one is that she really wanted to leave the White House as soon as possible, but she felt she had nowhere to go. It wasn't like they pushed her out. They wanted her to stay longer, but she didn't want to be there anymore. But she had her kids and she felt like she had nowhere to go with them. And her father in law, law said, obviously, move in with us, come live with us. She spent a lot of time, like, at, you know, at the family home anyways. And her response was, will mom move out? And I feel like that's something that could have been in there and shows how alone she was.
- [53:52]
A
Yeah.
- [53:53]
E
She did not have even a relationship with her mother where she wanted to be with her after her husband died. She was like, I'll go if she leaves jokingly. But that's what their relationship was. Was.
- [54:04]
A
No, I love that because there is. There are a few moments where she says a very mean, like, cruel thing to someone, usually to LBJ or Lady Bird Johnson. And it's just kind of funny. Like, I want to laugh because I. What did she say to lbj? Oh, when they're during the funeral procession, like, taking the body to the rotunda, she says, what a terrible way to start a presidency, and keeps walking. And it's like those little moments of just icy bitchiness. This I love.
- [54:33]
E
I love.
- [54:34]
A
Because why would you not do that? That's how it feels. She's furious.
- [54:38]
C
And this is also. She knows she can get away with a little bit of it. She knows people are giving her some slack because she obviously just lost her husband. And also, I think the fact that she realizes she's not getting any respect means that she's like, okay, well, if you're not gonna respect me, then I can say something bitchy, because you sort of are not taking me seriously. Talking about how she didn't have anyone, of course, made me realize there's one character we have not touched on at all. Her iconic gal pal, Greta Gerwig, who is, like, meant to be her confidant, but is such a sort of nothing character at the end of the day.
- [55:11]
A
Well, I wonder if some of her stuff got cut, because it does seem like such a small role. But I forget that Greta Gerg is in this movie every time I watch this movie. And whenever I see her, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Look at you're here. Look at you. Oh, my goodness.
- [55:24]
E
That's my old friend.
- [55:25]
A
But I do think that she is so good as the kind of straight face, like, I'm. I'm patting on your shoulders. I'm telling you, you're doing a really good job. Almost like the anti Amy from Veep the Handler, except actually will buoy your confidence in a very sweet way.
- [55:43]
C
Yeah, I kept. I think you're totally right. I had the feeling that surely something was cut, because I kept waiting for something to turn, either for Greta Gerwig to do something incredibly supportive and prove that Jackie at least had this one person on her Side or more likely, I thought that, like, what it was building to was, in fact, a betrayal from her. I thought that the sort of lesson was going to be that even this one person that she trusted at the end of the day sold her out. Like, I thought she was going to go to the media with something, or it turns out that her and Bobby were keeping something from Jackie and it was sort of just like nothing. She was just kind of of set dressing. You know, it's always nice to see Greta Gerwig, but I was like, where is this going?
- [56:26]
E
Yeah.
- [56:26]
A
It feels like one little piece is missing because I feel like the most we get is them kind of giggling together, like at the end when she's, like, getting her dress for the funeral. And it's sweet, but also not enough of a moment to really. For an actor as good as Greta Gerwig, honestly.
- [56:41]
E
Yeah, yeah. In real life, they were roommates in boarding school and their best friends until they died. Surely there's more there than the pat on the shoulder.
- [56:53]
A
My brain is so broken. I was like, oh, my God, they were roommates.
- [56:56]
E
Well, what happens to me in this movie is when they're driving away, it's Bobby and Jackie with the casket, and they hit a bump. And then Bobby opens the window to the driver and he goes, slow down. And then in my head, I just hear, grab the wall. That song is stuck in my gas pedal. Is stuck in my head for the next.
- [57:18]
A
No, that's crazy.
- [57:19]
C
This is like how Kirsten Gillibrand was roommates with Connie Britton.
- [57:23]
A
Wow.
- [57:23]
C
And when Lady Gaga plays Kirsten Gillibrand in the Pablo Array movie, we can have Katy Perry play Connie Britton.
- [57:31]
A
She's busy and she has to go to space again. She's going through divorce. She has to go to space again.
- [57:34]
E
Is she going to space again?
- [57:35]
A
No. I hope space is like. We don't want her. Put her down. No.
- [57:39]
C
You know who went to space right after this movie? Natalie Portman. Because one of the. This Lucy in the Sky.
- [57:45]
A
Don't get me started. The movie where she didn't wear the diaper.
- [57:47]
C
Yes, that's right. She didn't wear the diaper.
- [57:49]
E
I mean, in a serious way.
- [57:50]
A
She should have worn the diaper in that movie. And it's not like. Not in a, like, sensational way. That is like the real.
- [57:56]
E
Yes.
- [57:57]
A
Trauma of the real story.
- [57:59]
E
Yeah. I. So I was a director's assistant, and my job was reading scripts, and I read that script and I loved it. And in the original script, she. It was way more True to the character. They made her like, sexy and cool.
- [58:13]
A
Yeah. I do kind of like the moments in Jackie where you get the flashes of Jackie being very sexy. Like not sexy but like very cool. And like there's a scene where she's on Air Force One in the very, very beginning and they're about to go out and she says, I love crowds. And it's so. I'm like, oh my God. Diva, diva, diva, diva.
- [58:33]
E
She goes, are those birds? Like hearing the noise of the crowd, like call it. And I. Yeah, I feel like it's also so nice because you see that like she and Jack, they had a relationship and it was not a like perfect, lovey dovey romantic relationship, but they were partners. But you can see, like they understood each other.
- [58:53]
A
Yes. Where they connected on like very specific things like image making, like perception, all that stuff. I think that's really. Because that's. It's kind of like one of the few moments we get of their relationship. It really is all told in the aftermath of which I think is honestly like to the movie's cred.
- [59:07]
E
But yeah.
- [59:08]
C
Hunter, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. We truly could not have asked for a better guest for this film. Any final thoughts on Jackie or on the Kennedys and Phil more broadly?
- [59:19]
A
Well, I will say when I sent you that dm, I was like, I hope they do an episode about Jackie. And I never thought I would be able to talk about it. So I'm thrilled.
- [59:29]
C
Maybe you should be the next Pablo Rainbow.
- [59:34]
E
That's it for this week's episode.
- [59:35]
C
Next week we're talking about the Jackie O. Of pop music, Taylor Swift and her short lived relationship with RFK Jr. S son Connor Kennedy.
- [59:44]
E
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy. Every week.
- [59:59]
C
Song stands about an obsessed fan who's taken me too little from Eminem.
- [60:03]
B
And the producers of 8 Mile never.
- [60:05]
C
Seen anything like Eminem fans.
- [60:07]
B
This is the story of a fan base.
- [60:08]
A
I had to look in the mirror.
- [60:10]
B
And be like, am I one of these crazy Stans that created a culture? I do have an addiction to Eminem.
- [60:15]
C
I traveled the world for him.
- [60:17]
A
Without Eminem, I wouldn't have the life I have right now.
- [60:20]
C
What's your first question?
- [60:22]
B
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- [61:27]
E
Every day has a to do list.
- [61:29]
B
But adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can help you knock out the rest of it.
- [61:34]
F
Belvita Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and.
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B
Convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel.
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F
Best part? They both taste great, so make the.
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B
Most out of your morning with a bite of Velveeta. Pick up a pack of Velveeta at your local store today. Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay.
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A
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B
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